Meandeck Open (12/28/08) - TOP EIGHT LISTS!

[Smmenen]

Top 4: Prize Split

Top 4 placement based on swiss standings.

1) Brian DeMars - The Deck (UW Control)

1 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
9 Island
3 Tundra
3 Plains
3 Wasteland
2 Chrome Mox
2 Isochron Scepter
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Back to Basics
2 Fact or Fiction
3 Spell Snare
1 Meloku, The Clouded Mirror
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
1 Moat
1 Eternal Dragon
2 Mulldrifter
2 Cunning Wish

Sideboard:
2 Disenchant
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Stifle
1 Counterspell
1 Wing Shards
1 Hydroblast
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Orim's Chant
2 Kataki War's Wage
1 Energy Flux

2) John Pyror - 43 Land.dec

4 Exploration
4 Manabond
3 Gamble
3 Mulch
4 Life From the Loam
2 Barbarian Ring
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
4 Rishadan Port
4 Tiaga
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Nantuko Monastary
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Treetop Village
4 Maze of Ith
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 The Tabernacle of Pendral Vall
1 Riftstone Portal
2 Savannah

Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Zuran Orb
3 Ray of Revelation
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Firebold
2 Krosan Grip

3) Stephen Menendian - Ubgw Counterbalance-Goyf

4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Serum Visions
1 Stifle
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Island

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Krosan Grip
2 Stifle
1 Engineered Explosives

4) Michael Smith - Goyf/Tombstalker Aggro Control

4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Snuff Out
1 Rushing River
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
3 Divert
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Blue Elemental Blast

5) Rich Stachurski - Counter-Slivers

4 Aether Vial
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Crystaline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island

Sideboard:
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Harmonic Sliver
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Stifle
3 Echoing Truth

6) Adam Yurchick -- DreadStill

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
4 Phyrexian Dreadnaught
3 Trinket Mage
2 Engineered Explosives
6 Snow-Covered Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

Sideboard:
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Pyroclasm
2 Echoing Truth
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Prognetus

7) Cedric Phillips - The Rock

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmagoyf
4 Mesmeric Fiend
3 Tombstalker

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sidebaord:
4 Duress
3 Extirpate
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Infest

8) Mark Trogdon - Mono Blue Fish

4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Wakethrasher
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Cursecatcher
4 Merrow Reejerry
4 Silvergil Adept
3 Stifle
2 Tidal Warrior
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
1 Rishadan Port
12 Island

Sideboard:
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Back to Basics
4 Relic of Progentus
4 Blue Elemental Blast

The Full Metagame Breakdown!:

2 UBr DreadStill
UBg Dreadstill (w/goyf)
3 R/G Beatz
4 Mono Blue Fish
Mono Blue Fish with Stifle-Naught Combo
UBGW Slivers w/o Force of Will
2 UBGR Counterbalance-Goyf/Swan Combo
Sea Stompy
Mono White Aggro
WRGU Zoo
Mono Black Nether Void
3 43 Land.dec
4 Mono White Prison (1 is Angel-Stax, 3 are Helm combo)
4 Ad Nauseam Combo
Affinity w/ Stifle-Naught combo
Mono Red Artifact Aggro
CounterSlivers
Manland Stompy
BRG Aggro Loam
Grw Survival
UBg Tomb/Goyf Aggro Control (Dream Team)
UBg Tomb/Goyf aggro conrol with bob
Affinity w/ Goyf
UB PolyMorph/Bitterblossom/Standstill
3 Ubgw Counterbalance-Goyf
Goblins
UGw Threshold
UBG Threshold
2 Affinity
UG Madness
Bw Aggro-Control
Mono Red Prison
The Rock
UW Control (The Deck)
Dredge
UBG Counterbalance-Goyf Control


Top 8 Playoff:

1) Rich Stachurski (Counterslivers)
8) Michael Smith Winner: Michael Smith

5) Mark Trogdon (Fish)
4) Brian DeMars (UW Control Winner: Brian DeMars

3) Cedric Phillips (The Rock)
6) John Pyror (Land.dec) Winner: John Pryor

7) Stephen Menendian
2) Adam Yurichick (Dreadstill) Winner: Stephen Menendian

[Shades]

Brian's list has 58 cards, I guess there are 2 Cunning wishes missing.

Anyway congrats on the great performance Meandeck. Especially Brians list is truely inspiring.

[AngryTroll]

Is that Merfolk deck 61 cards on purpose? Looks awesome...I am surprised by the lack of Dazes, especially with Wasteland, Stifle, and Cursecatcher. I suppose your opponents have to play around it assuming you play it, but with all the mana disruption built in, it seems like it'd be awesome.

That curve is awesome for some Counterbalance action:
1cc: 17 cards
2cc: 12 cards
3cc: 8 cards!
5ccc: 4 cards
Of course, adding in 3 Counterbalance and 3 Top messes with that curve and is a lot more mana-intensive than the current setup.

[FoolofaTook]

I looked at the UW Control deck and the first thing I thought was: "neat deck, bringing back an ancient archetype in style." The second thing I thought almost immediately after was: "Nobody playing goblins in that tourney or very few and he didn't meet them."

Still, it is a wonderful list.

[Smmenen]

Brian's list has 58 cards, I guess there are 2 Cunning wishes missing.

Anyway congrats on the great performance Meandeck. Especially Brians list is truely inspiring.

I'm guessing that's the case.

[Jaynel]

3 Leyline in the board, Steve? Really? What's the reasoning behind that?

[Smmenen]

3 Leyline in the board, Steve? Really? What's the reasoning behind that?

I played Patrick's 2007 Worlds list card for card. I wasn't sure what the reasoning was before testing the deck, but I don't want to lose to Dredge, and it's also good against Affinity.

[nitewolf9]

I played Patrick's 2007 Worlds list card for card. I wasn't sure what the reasoning was before testing the deck, but I don't want to lose to Dredge, and it's also good against Affinity.

I think he meant why 3 and not 4. If you're going to run leyline it seems that you want to maximize the chances of seeing it in your opening hand when you need it.

[frogboy]

asdf not this again.

If you determine that Leyline is the best sideboard card against an archtype, you play as many copies as you can fit in your sideboard. Sometimes that number is less than four because of other constraints.

[T is for TOOL]

If you determine that Leyline is the best sideboard card against an archtype, you play as many copies as you can fit in your sideboard.

Since Leyline typically must start the game in play to be effective, the probability of it being in your opening hand directly relates to its effectiveness as SB hate (i.e. The fewer copies that you run, the less effective it becomes against anything). If you determine that Leyline is the best graveyard hate that you can sideboard, but you don't have enough space to run 4, then it's perfectly reasonable to question your 'determination'.

[Nihil Credo]

Since Leyline typically must start the game in play to be effective, the probability of it being in your opening hand directly relates to its effectiveness as SB hate (i.e. The fewer copies that you run, the less effective it becomes against anything).

False. Each individual copy of Leyline of the Void improves your win chances against, say, Ichorid by the same percentage (let's say: 80% times the chance of having it in the opener plus 5% times the chance of drawing it later) regardless of how many other copies you play (in fact, it actually give you very slightly diminishing returns since multiple copies are redundant rather than cumulative).

If 4 Leylines are better than 4 Crypts, then 1/2/3 Leylines will also be better than 1/2/3 Crypts and vice-versa. The only factor that can make that untrue is if the cards interact with other copies of each other in different ways (eg. a second Leyline is dead vs. a second Relic cycles); or even if they interact with other candidates for the same slot (eg. Crypt + Relic is probably more often better than double Crypt or double Relic).

If you determine that Leyline is the best graveyard hate that you can sideboard, but you don't have enough space to run 4, then it's perfectly reasonable to question your 'determination'.

Let's take Eva Green. No draw magic of any kind, Dark Ritual for powering a turn two Leyline, Thoughtseize that can take Chain of Vapor or Krosan Grip, and a fast, evasive clock that leaves the opponent with little time to find an answer; oh, and it uses its own graveyard, too, so it wants asymmetric hate. Leyline is overwhelmingly the best anti-graveyard card it can run.

Now let's say you want to run Eva Green at a tournament where Goblins, various Painter decks, and blue-based control will be huge, with Ichorid a distant fourth. Starting from a board of 4 Engineered Plagues, 4 Pithing Needles, 4 Chokes, and 3 Leylines of the Void, anything you would cut to fit the fourth Leyline is something that gives you a better return than it. That fact in no way points you towards replacing the other 3 Leylines with Crypt, Relic, Extirpate, Jailer, or what have you.

[T is for TOOL]

Each individual copy of Leyline of the Void improves your win chances against, say, Ichorid by the same percentage (let's say: 80% times the chance of having it in the opener plus 5% times the chance of drawing it later) regardless of how many other copies you play (in fact, it actually give you very slightly diminishing returns since multiple copies are redundant rather than cumulative).

Yes, the effectiveness of individual copies doesn't change. However running fewer copies of Leyline will lower the odds of seeing one in your opening hand.

If 4 Leylines are better than 4 Crypts, then 1/2/3 Leylines will also be better than 1/2/3 Crypts and vice-versa. The only factor that can make that untrue is if the cards interact with other copies of each other in different ways (eg. a second Leyline is dead vs. a second Relic cycles); or even if they interact with other candidates for the same slot (eg. Crypt + Relic is probably more often better than double Crypt or double Relic).

You must also include scenarios where you don't start with the card in your opening hand, but draw it later. Brainstorm, Ponder, Top, and Serum Visions can all snag you a timely Crypt in the first couple of turns when drawing Leyline is completely useless.

Let's take Eva Green. No draw magic of any kind, Dark Ritual for powering a turn two Leyline, Thoughtseize that can take Chain of Vapor or Krosan Grip, and a fast, evasive clock that leaves the opponent with little time to find an answer; oh, and it uses its own graveyard, too, so it wants asymmetric hate. Leyline is overwhelmingly the best anti-graveyard card it can run.

Even better than Extirpate???

Now let's say you want to run Eva Green at a tournament where Goblins, various Painter decks, and blue-based control will be huge, with Ichorid a distant fourth. Starting from a board of 4 Engineered Plagues, 4 Pithing Needles, 4 Chokes, and 3 Leylines of the Void, anything you would cut to fit the fourth Leyline is something that gives you a better return than it. That fact in no way points you towards replacing the other 3 Leylines with Crypt, Relic, Extirpate, Jailer, or what have you.

I'm not a fan of using hypothetical scenarios to prove points. That said, I would replace Pithing Needle #4 with Leyline #4.

[Nihil Credo]

Yes, the effectiveness of individual copies doesn't change. However running fewer copies of Leyline will lower the odds of seeing one in your opening hand.

Which is absolutely no different from how running fewer copies of Crypt will lower the odds of seeing one at all. Since fewer copies of Leylines will also lower the odds of drawing a dead one later, you're not getting diminishing returns here.

You must also include scenarios where you don't start with the card in your opening hand, but draw it later. Brainstorm, Ponder, Top, and Serum Visions can all snag you a timely Crypt in the first couple of turns when drawing Leyline is completely useless.

If you pay attention, you'll notice that doesn't contradict anything that I said.

[spirit of the wretch]

There IS however the huge difference Crypt and Leyline, when it comes to the mana cost. Topdecking a Crypt turn 3 is just fine while topdecking a Leyline isn't. Furthermore the Crypt has an immediate effect on the opponent's graveyard and Leyline hasn't.
So basically your reasoning is true, if Leyline is better than Crypt, than it's the better card no matter how many copies you play. The problem is, that Leyline itself get significantly worse if you don't have it in your opening hand (you won't be able to cast it for quite some time in Threshold and by that time, the effect isn't as potent). Against decks like Ichorid Leyline has basically no effect (yay for hyperbole) if you don't have it in your opening hand.
That is the reason why it is probably the correct decision to play a full playset of Leylines. In comparison to Crypt the card gets much worse for each copy you don't play (because the risk of having no effect at all rises faster).
Anyway, just my 2 cent on that topic.

(Edit because I don't want to drown the thread in Leyline posts)

What I am arguing is precisely that by decreasing the copies it doesn't get worse any faster than Crypt, because the chance of having no effect at all decreases exactly at the same speed as that of having it in your hand. I can't come up with a way to explain that in a much clearer way. - NC

[Adan]

Another Top8 that proves how fucking random Legacy is. Period.

Smmenen's deck is also an absolute rape of Threshold, meh.

The Serum Visions should be Portent, the Stifle should be the 4th Counterbalance, the Explosives should be a 4th Daze... There should be 4 Thoughtseizes and somehow there should only be 16 lands at all because NQGb has got the lowest curve of all Threshold builds.

Leylines shouldn't be played at all (need to be in the opening hand or they suck. All they do is ping you for 4 when revealed with Confidant.)

Blah.

edit: @ Leyline-Flamewar:

It's obvious that the odds of having either Crypt or Leyline in the opening hand are the same when you are running 3 of either Leyline or Crypt.
But, the main difference is that you can efford running 3 Crypts because you are not bound to having them in your opening hand. YOu can still dig for them with cantrips in the good old Threshold-manner, find them and still play and activate them as Tormod's Crypte are 4free.

Leylines however bind you to keep them in your opening hand, sometimes they make you keep bad hands just because you want the Leyline-Effect. Additionally, Leylines suck in multiples where mutiple Crypts are OK or even desireable (Ichorid).
So, Leylines are in general suboptimal as you are always bound to board 4 Leylines in (to maximize the odds of having them in the opening hand), but you actually don't want more than 1 in the entire game.

Another reason is that Leylines can easily be disposed by Chain of Vapor which equals "GG" since Ichorid is too fast and will most likely finish you before you can replay Leyline. Even if you can replay them, they won't have the same effect like Tormod's Crypt.
This may contradict with my "multiple Leyline argument", but I think my rating of the 2 cards portait how clunky Leylines really are.

[kirdape3]

I mean, he just copied Patrick Chapin's 75 from Worlds and crushed with it. I happen to believe that Chapin's deckbuilding skill is sufficient to warrant adopting his deck without modification - which is certainly not something that can be said for the vast majority of people on this website.

[Adan]

[translated]But Patrick Chapin is a pro and most users on TS are not.[/translated]

Is that really supposed to be a counter-argument to everything said before?

[kirdape3]

Yes.

When you have a deck that's proven from a source that is proven, why change it? PChapin did well at Worlds with the deck, Steve took the exact same list and also did well with it. I'm not sure what the problem is, especially since his only loss was to Dreadnought and he got Yurchick back in the Top 8.

I do not have the same faith in the decks put forth by most members of this site.

[Adan]

Yes.

When you have a deck that's proven from a source that is proven, why change it?

Though I am a kind of netdecker myself, I am still able to, you know, use my brain and utilize logical reasoning to judge whether some cards have their right to exist or not.
We still live in a Age of Enlightenment. Logical reasoning & rational thinking > belief.

PChapin did well at Worlds with the deck, Steve took the exact same list and also did well with it. I'm not sure what the problem is, especially since his only loss was to Dreadnought and he got Yurchick back in the Top 8.

I do not have the same faith in the decks put forth by most members of this site.

Anyway, your argument is absolutely useless for any kind of further discussion. It just proves that you are too lazy to think.
Actually there was no offense intended, but I can't help it.

[yawg07]

I hate the "Well he's a pro, his deck is just fucking better than yours" argument.
If that is true, how will anyone else become pro?

When I was there Steve M was saying that I got a ton of people to come along and he wondered if it was because Chapin was there.
My answer was simply "No.... we came here because there was a big tournament."