4c Sligh has too many inconsistencies to be worth it. Running Wasteland is also worthless; the manabase is too shaky to cut lands for it, and you'd rather just run more burn than cut spells for it. This isn't RDW.A partner was going to run Fire/Ice in his Tarmo Sligh. I liked the idea and have been testing it. It seems to work fine inspite of having a vulnerable mana base, but I need to test it more.
---
Anyway, I was testing Bloodchief for a bit in Sligh, which didn't work out well, but it got me testing Sligh, and caused a few changed to my Naya Sligh.
R/G/w Naya Sligh
// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
4 [B] Taiga
1 [A] Plateau
1 [U] Savannah
4 [RAV] Mountain (2)
1 [8E] Forest (3)
// Creatures
2 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
// Spells
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
3 [LRW] Tarfire
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [DLM] Incinerate
4 [VI] Fireblast
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
I tightened the manabase up a bit by dropping a Plateau for another Taiga. I only need a white source to make Nactal +1/+1 larger, and more green means more consistency. I know I run Path in the SB, but meh.
The value of 1cc burn is just so important. So I added Tarfire. It costs half as much as 2cc burn, which can be invaluable for increasing the clock. I'm considering dropping 1 Incinerate for 1 Tarfire, but the 15 1cc/8 2cc burn configuration feels good right now. Incinerate is obviously a better topdeck later on since it deals an extra damage. Tarfire to Tarmogoyf is kinda like Plains to Wild Nacatl. Every swing with Tarmogoyf after Tarfire has been cast adds the additional +1/+1. This makes the first Tarfire essentially a 1cc 3 damage burn spell if you get at least one swing with a Tarmogoyf.
Price of Progress maindeck is sometimes hit or miss, and I hate losing some g1's because I'm playing against a monocolored deck (or a multicolor deck with alot of basics) because I'm clogged up with multiple Price of Progress in hand. It also feels smoother to have all my burn able to target opposing creatures, ensuring that if I have burn in hand, I can burn away opposing blockers so my guys can swing in. Price of Progress is a house in certain matchups, so it can be boarded in place of Incinerate in those matchups.
I dropped Chalice from the sideboard. The only matchup it comes in for is combo, which is a matchup I almost never see anyway. Just didn't see the point in having it anymore, and I needed room for Price of Progress in the sideboard. I added another Grip with the extra space.
Last edited by Hanni; 10-09-2009 at 09:29 PM.
i'm just thinking, should we be thinking of goblin guide for this deck? i mean, turn 1 take 2 should put them on a good clock, and if we get to hit them 3 times with this guy, we're in really good shape?
Umm... yes? I thought that was already an established idea.i'm just thinking, should we be thinking of goblin guide for this deck? i mean, turn 1 take 2 should put them on a good clock, and if we get to hit them 3 times with this guy, we're in really good shape?
I guess not everyone read the previous page.
Goblin Guide is just as good as Nacatl, but better in some cases. Guide will do an average of 6 damage for 1cc investment, same as Nacatl (by turn 3). After the initial rush, if the opponent has creatures in play, Guide sneaks through as a Shock, where Nacatl is part of the ground stall (if the opponent doesn't have an available blocker). Obviously a 4-of for the deck, it speeds up the fundamental turn. Nacatl + Guide make for occasional lightning fast turn 3 wins.
The fundamental use of creatures in this deck is all early game. Each 1cc creature averages 6 damage for 1cc if cast turn 1-2. Grim Lavamancer is only a 2-of for that reason: more than 2 makes multiples an occurence, and multiple Lavamancer's won't consistently do 6 damage each. Goyf is a different case, because he's a 2cc creature. Depending on the situation, Goyf may swing for only 3 damage (swings as a 3/4 on turn 3, gets answered after that), but he can also swing for 10 damage (Tarfire on turn 3 to swing as a 5/6, swing for an additional 5 damage on turn 4). 14 creatures (and 27 burn spells) balances the deck out well. Guide plays an essential role in this.
I just posted my decklist above your post. That's an optimized Sligh build.
I agree with Hanni that it is 95% optimal, but I'd go...
-1 Fireblast
-3 Tarfire (I mean cmon)
Move 3 PoP to mainboard.
And +1 Grim
Also I'm not sure how necessary stuff like savannah and basic forest is for this deck. I'd probably go -1 savannah, +1 plateau, as that seems to just be carried over as a basically zoo manabase.
That frees up sideboard space where I'd play either combo hate or grave hate, probably crypt because I see an infestation of those shenanigans.
Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
I ran 3 PoP maindeck for a long time. As far as the clock is concerned, Tarfire can enable consistent turn 3 goldfishes. 1cc is huge, +1/+1 pump to Goyf is huge. PoP is 2cc, making it slower, and can sometimes be a blank. I feel that it is better left for the sideboard, in my multiple games of testing.I agree with Hanni that it is 95% optimal, but I'd go...
-1 Fireblast
-3 Tarfire (I mean cmon)
Move 3 PoP to mainboard.
And +1 Grim
Also I'm not sure how necessary stuff like savannah and basic forest is for this deck. I'd probably go -1 savannah, +1 plateau, as that seems to just be carried over as a basically zoo manabase.
That frees up sideboard space where I'd play either combo hate or grave hate, probably crypt because I see an infestation of those shenanigans.
Savannah is a crucial target since every fetchland grabs it and sometimes Mountain + Savannah is the correct land choice.
When you are dependant on 8 green spells, the basic Forest can be very important. Trust me dude, I've beaten this deck to death. The manabase is fine.
I don't think graveyard hate nor combo hate is necessary in the sideboard, but that's just me.
Fireblast is an essential ingredient for the faster goldfish. You always want to be able to end a game with one, since it oftentimes inceases the fundamental clock by a full turn. Sometimes, the deck can execute a double Fireblast, which can have fantastic results. I wouldn't cut one for any reason in this deck, but I can understand why Zoo may run a low or nonexistent number of Fireblasts.
Just thought I'd mention, that Bloodbraid Elf has been weak. Sometimes he'd be another Tarmogoyf or Ball lightning, but it was too hit or miss. Cascading into Magma Jet is bad. Costing 4 invalidates him for the deck, but could make him slip through Countertop. Could be cool, but there's danger in cool things.
I really like the Tarfire idea BTW. Shock kills creatures all the same, and that extra Goyf pump is actually nice. The other comparison is Seal of Fire, but I don't think there's slots for it. PoP has also been a blank for me at times, similar to your experience, but I think replacing it is giving up a pre-board bomb against plenty of legacy decks. I don't think I can let go of such a potentially devastating card. It slows down the goldfish, but of course it does
[EDIT] How has Ball Lightning been treating you? I can't get off of the card, it's been really good.
I've got 4 PoP in my board, and that's probably where I'm going to leave them. They are a massive bomb sometimes, but sometimes they aren't, which makes them a sideboard card for me. I found alot of times they had the exact same effect as Flame Rift.
Of course, boarding all 4 in place of Incinerate is going to be very good in alot of matchups, and that's what I've been doing.
As far as Ball Lightning goes, I still don't like it. Curving up to 3 mana is hit or miss, and I don't find myself needing the extra reach it provides. With both Guide and Nacatl now, my reach has been excellent. Continue to run it if it works well for you, though.
I made 14th today in the Philly 5k playing this deck. I maindecked 2 vexing shusher, 3 goblin guide, and 3 PoP. I'll post my full decklist later but it performed well all day. It did exactly what i wanted it to do and was much better then a zoo deck would have been.
I lost to Life.dec, (cleric infi life combo), and a close match with NO Thresh in 3 games.
I beat goblins, pox, belcher, d stompy, aggro loam, and my final round opponent scooped to me so we wouldn't draw and both lose prizes.
Pop won me alot of games and was only dead in a few matches. Guide did well and gave me just enough extra speed to beat goblins and belcher. The 2 maindeck shushers really helped against the cb top decks and i don't regret maindecking them.
Team Donkey Puch
ok so I went 2-3 drop at the starcity 5 k in philly, well I played against belcher, ant, icharid, show and tell/ hyper, and team america...
1/ ok round one my opp won, IMO, turn one before I even played a land making 10 1/1 goblins and then game 3 he made 16 1/1 goblins before I even played a land.
2/ ant the player miss counted my good fortune, I should of lost.
3/ Ichard guy should of won but I got 2 early crypts in game 2 and 3
4/ show and tell guy made second turn akroma games 2 and 3
5/ team america, I played bad , and he ended out having more goyfs than me
so 4 horrible matchups for me and 1 ok matchup ( that I lost )
I thought I was going to see zoo, merfolk and goblins, guess I was wrong
A person from my area that played my list went 5-1-2 getting 19th... he drew with goblins and counter top... he said he was one turn away , and prob should of top 16
my opps had between 0 and 2 lands in play,,,
my list'
1 Barbarian Ring
4 Taiga
3 plateuas
4 mountain
4 bloodstained mire
4 wooded foothills
4 tarmogoyf
4 wild nacalts
4 figure of destiny
4 grim lavamancer
3 keldon marauders
3 fireblast
3 rift bolt
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 magma jet
3 path to exile ( yes I went there, :] Zoo, zoo where was the zoo ) could have been pop or Gguide or ?
sb
1 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
2 vexing susher
2 pithing needle
3 krosan grip
3 tormods crypt
3 teeg ( I was thinking blue trap, or chailce, ? ) but I liked the diversity of this instead.....
congratz to NjPunk1 for his 14th finish
@ albplayer, did having the extra white dual hurt you against team america? I like the gaddok teegs in the sideboard, but i really hate playing more non-basics in this deck, especially when i still run 3 PoP in the main.
Have you tested goblin guide anymore? He really made the difference in my matches but got sided out in alot of other matches, especially on the draw. For now i'm going to stick with him.
How was rift bolt? If i was going to add anything else to my main thats what it would be, but i can't see myself taking out the md shushers and 3 Pop. Both of them won me games.
Oh, and Star City listed me down as a zoo deck. Most of my opponents thought i was a zoo deck all day too, even when i explained i wasn't. It worked out in my favor because people don't expect 12-16 points of burn in one turn from a "zoo" deck.
Team Donkey Puch
Yeah, this is an argumented point among many. I've played "Zoo" for more than 2 years straight and it honestly looks more like "Goyf Sligh" than the one listed in DTB's. If you ask me though, I'm still playing Zoo...it's just a little burn heavy to suit my aggressive playstyle. I really like ending the game with bolt, bolt, Fireblast. It makes me smile.
Not sure if I understand. I think you meant to say you'd rather play Sligh? Sligh is burn heavy and ends games with Bolt, Bolt, Fireblast. Or did you mean what it looks like you said, i.e burn heavy Zoo? Me confused.Yeah, this is an argumented point among many. I've played "Zoo" for more than 2 years straight and it honestly looks more like "Goyf Sligh" than the one listed in DTB's. If you ask me though, I'm still playing Zoo...it's just a little burn heavy to suit my aggressive playstyle. I really like ending the game with bolt, bolt, Fireblast. It makes me smile.
Thats the point I'm trying to make entirely. People are confused. Lemme make it plain. Goyf Sligh is Zoo. Or at least it's closer to what I've been playing for a long time.
During that time, before "Zoo" became a DTB, everyone referred to my deck as Zoo, except this guy named Trent, he called it Super Zoo...whatever. Point is, Goyf Sligh and Zoo share the fundamental idea of winning by reducing the opponents life total to zero by means of efficient creatures and burn. Zoo has just evolved in the direction of strenthening the mid/late game whereas Goyf Sligh evolved toward an even tighter complement of aggressive burn spells with the aim of ending the game early.
Both directions are adaptations to the metagame, a fundamental characteristic ability of Zoo decks since Scott Johns first made and won with the deck he called "The Zoo" in 1996.
The deck I play now is closer to the Goyf Sligh evolution...but I still call it Zoo...and so does everyone else I know...except Trent.
Recall the quote;You can't stop the lemming rush. It's as simple as running headlong off a cliff.
I agree and disagree.Thats the point I'm trying to make entirely. People are confused. Lemme make it plain. Goyf Sligh is Zoo. Or at least it's closer to what I've been playing for a long time.
During that time, before "Zoo" became a DTB, everyone referred to my deck as Zoo, except this guy named Trent, he called it Super Zoo...whatever. Point is, Goyf Sligh and Zoo share the fundamental idea of winning by reducing the opponents life total to zero by means of efficient creatures and burn. Zoo has just evolved in the direction of strenthening the mid/late game whereas Goyf Sligh evolved toward an even tighter complement of aggressive burn spells with the aim of ending the game early.
Both directions are adaptations to the metagame, a fundamental characteristic ability of Zoo decks since Scott Johns first made and won with the deck he called "The Zoo" in 1996.
The deck I play now is closer to the Goyf Sligh evolution...but I still call it Zoo...and so does everyone else I know...except Trent.
Zoo was a deck designed around cheap undercosted creatures. It planned to do the bulk of its damage through creature beats, and in most cases, all of it. The burn it ran was specifically to deal with blockers, because it relies heavily on creature beats. Choosing burn as the removal of choice allowed the deck to finish opponent's last few points off with a burn spell or two. Zoo typically ran around 12 burn spells. Nowadays, I'm seeing alot of Zoo decks with only 8 burn spells and 4 Path to Exile. With only 8 burn spells, using burn to kill the opponent is only an endgame plan.
Sligh runs only a few creatures. This gives reach that normal Burn decks don't have (i.e assume Nacatl/Guide are 1cc 6 damage burn spells), while speeding up the fundamental clock. By running 27 burn spells, the deck can (and sometimes does) play nothing but burn to kill an opponent. Sligh only needs to drop 1-2 guys, swing 1-2 times each, and from there, the remaining burn easily handles the job. This is is the major fundamental difference, and is the seperating factor between the two archetypes.
Sligh is more an evolution of Burn, IMO, than a burn heavy version of Zoo. It's easier to just say that Sligh is a hybrid of the two, but when the actual fundamental gameplan is executed, Sligh is more closely related to Burn than it is to Zoo.
14 creatures and 27 burn spells is clearly Sligh. No question about that.
However, some decks do run a much closer creature to burn count ratio, and those decks fall into a very "difficult to name" classification. 20 creatures, 20 burn, 20 land... that sorta thing. However, I'd still classify those as Zoo. Burn heavy, yes, but not Sligh.
Sligh can be defined by its independance of creatures to win, as well as its faster fundamental clock/goldfish.
It gets tricky sometimes, but in the end, the difference in fundamental playstyle maintains the difference.
goyf sligh IMO is any deck with goyf, other creatures, burn and maybe some other things.... recently I added path to my deck list because of the stall of gyof on goyf match ups or having to waste 2 burn spells or 1 burn and a smaller creature to kill one other there goyfs.... everyone has there own criteria for what constitutes as goyf sligh,...
I believe all lands should produce red and only one land can be a non mountain, this might change ??? I used to believe that goyf could be the only non red creature, but the deck was dryad sligh before it was goyf sligh.. so I didn't feel too bad when I added nactal
I guess burn heavey zoo and low burn goyf sligh are technically the same thing .. SO i don't think any one should care if someone call there deck zoo or goyf sligh....
but when someone goes out of there way to call your deck zoo and disagrees with your opinion that your deck is goyf sligh, because you add 3 plateaus and nactal, and then does the same thing to there deck and calls there deck goyf sligh and not zoo , lol lol lol lol lol lol
susher and pop would have done nothing for me all day, my opp had between 0 and 2 lands out ....
having 3 plats instead of 2 helps because of the nactals and now paths and teeg also, and takeing pops out haveing more non basic didn't matter
still not sold on G guide yet
teeg help me against dredge, the other matchups he would have help I never got him in play ///
my match ups were so bad, I don't believe it to have been a realistic test lol
I fall into this category, and I too call it Zoo...but I have to watch two threads.
So I've been playing your exact list to death on MWS for the last few days, and I completely disagree with this assessment. I get your logic, PoP sucks hard against Merfolk, Gobs, etc.. But I think the "Holy Fuck! I Win!" factor that PoP has against many (top tier) decks in the format is worth the possibility of four dead cards in your deck.
So with this in mind, I moved the PoP back to the MD, cut the incinerates completely, and added 4 Relic to combat AggroLoam. Relic is obviously suboptimal,considering the decks focus, but it's purely a meta choice.
Is there a better piece of hate for AggroLoam?
Aggro Loam is a bad matchup for you? Seriously, the only problem Aggro Loam poses is Chalice, and the only board cards you'll bring in is Vexing Shusher or Krosan Grip.
This is essentially a combo deck (ala burn). You have a turn 3 clock. Slower decks like Aggro Loam are won before they do anything, or lost because they land a Chalice. Deal with Chalice, and you win. If they don't see Chalice, you win. Simple as that.
PoP MD or SB is a meta decision, and I'm doing PoP SB because it's more consistent against randomness. If you prefer PoP MD, I'm not suggesting that you don't. PoP MD can be great.
How's the rest of the deck been treating you?
I suppose your points regarding aggro loam are valid. My adding of Relic was more reactionary than thoughtfully tested. I just know aggro loam is big in my meta so i wanted to add a card that auto-wins versus them. Im not sure if that card is relic, but i think it would work well.
Overall I've been loving the deck. The 14 creatures seems like a really nice and smooth number for the deck. Never has my hand been gunked up with creatures, nor have they all disappeared somewhere in the deck never to be drawn.
I like the burn suite quite a bit as well. I just find myself wishing Tarfire was always something better. It's interactions with goyf are nice, but is there really nothing better to run in this slot?
Finally, as of right now I really want to fit a basic plains into the manabase. I'm not sure if you've already tested this or not, and if so how much it diluted the decks consistency. But PtE is an all-star for me outta the sb, and against the matchups were i bring it in (see: Decks with TS) there is usually a ready amount of sinkholes, wastelands, and to a lesser degree pox and smallpox to say fuck you to both monsieur's plateau and savannah.
“He who does not feel me is not real to me, therefore he does not exist. So, poof... vamoose, son of a bitch.”
@Njpunk1 hey, could you post your list. I'm curious on what it is?
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