Test it. You have goyf, stop, knight and counters to buy time. You dont need to wing shards on turn3. You wing shards when you see the oppotunity. You can also daze your own brainstorm (and pay for it) to kill 3 with any help of your oponent if you are desesperate. You are turning your instant cantrips and extra counters to removal.Originally Posted by alfthefurryalien
Wing Shars vs Firespout
Firespout can be better maybe. But i want to stay 3 colors. For me the benefits of the extra color dont pay for the added vulnerability to mana denial. Especially against Tempo Thresh.
Firespout build: Better vs Zoo, Gobos, Merfolk weaker vs mana denial, mirror.
Wing shards: worse vs merfolk, Ok vs Zoo, Gobos, better vs mirror, Thresh, NO-Progenitus, agroo-loam, anything with counters.
People are metagaming hugely for zoo and i expect more combo, reanimator and agroo-control than ever.
Seems like if you have all these things to buy you time you don't need wing shards. With enough removal and large guys with RWM and Goyf you should not have trouble vs goblins. Merfolk is another issue but again they have smaller guys to sac to a stormed wing shards. And they are attacking with them because they can be unblockable. And pray to god they dont have a stifle....
My point was that it was not good vs decks with vial because you want your removal to turn on quickly and shards is really slow, not to mention if you are trying to storm it out with BS and Dazes.(5 mana and 3 cards vs aggro seems like the worst idea) Also if you have all these extra cards just to try to force though a shards you are behind already. Seems like a big gamble to rely on it, especially when you don't get to chose the creatures they are sacing.
If you want to stay 3 color and want to extra removal I would rather just play the Paths main.
No contest. Stop suggesting bad cards. I could elaborate, but seriously, I'm also not going to argue why Tarmogoyf is better than Werebear.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
This is my first go round with ProBant and was wanting some feedback about my decklist. I was thinking about taking it to SCG 5k in December but I'm not sure if it's right for the meta. My list:
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Rhox War Monk
2x Trygon Predator
2x Sower of Temptation
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Ponder
4x Counterbalance
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Vedalken Shackles
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Flooded Strand
1x Scalding Tarn
4x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
1x Island
1x Forest
1x Plains
SB:
3x Firespout
2x REB
1x Pyroblast
3x BEB
2x Krosan Grip
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Relic of Progenitus
I know for starters I need more Tundra's (working on that) but I'm having trouble deciding between 4 creature control slots and whether or not Sower is good anymore. Sometimes Sower sticks and go all the way but most of the time it eats a Bolt or Edict and another creature gets to keep on beating. Is 2 Shackles good enough or are the Sowers needed as well. I want to fit 2 Jitte in here, depending on the Sowers or Shackles, 2 Jitte might be making their way in. Thoughts?
What happened to the 1st Amendment?
My list of CounterTop from Dream Wizards 10 Proxy 11/7
Will Alston - 7th place
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Forest
2 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Academy Ruins
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Vedalken Shackles
--- Sideboard ---
4 Pyroblast
3 Firespout
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Spell Snare
1 Threads of Disloyalty
My Tournament Report - please read and comment
Threads of Disloyalty was strong on the day, and would've been that much better had any Zoo showed up. Highly recommend putting at least 2 somewhere in your deck. It's cheaper than Sower, a 3 to flip off Balance (to hit Grips, etc.), and doesn't die to every kind of creature removal in the format - which means it's crap against Zoo, even though it steals stuff; in contrast, Threads is amazing against Zoo.
I dislike Ponder in a deck with Sensei's Divining Top, and haven't had problems with Tops clogging my hand, given Brainstorm and shufflers.
How was V Clique on the day? and was your threat density high enough over all? with only 7 creatures I can imagine some decks can be hard to beat like stacks or combo. Yes CBT is good vs combo but its possible to just not be able to lock up the game becuase of low threat density before they can overwhelm you with their combo
There's absolutely no stax in my meta. I played against combo round 1, you can read how it played out. You really don't need to drop a beater until later; spend time setting yourself up with answers, especially CounterTop.
V. Clique was excellent, a strong evasive beater as well as taking key spells out of the opponent's hand. The information it gives you is very important in many matchups, especially against combo, and Flash allows you to play the control role more effectively.
Well... without Progenitus it isn't really ProBant, is it? Also, not running 4x Sensei's Divining Top in a CounterTop list is beyond my understanding. You should throw out a Ponder if you don't know anything else to throw out.
Gamegeek2: that's one heck of a heavy control version of CounterTop. I like that. But I would rather drop the 4th Daze for a third Spell Snare. Once you run into Zoo or Landstill, you'll want that third EE.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
Seems like a good idea - I'll try it out. It also makes room in the sideboard.
The reason I go heavy control is because the deck plays the control role in the vast majority of matchups. And yes, I do want to keep the 3rd EE, which has been invaluable against Landstill.
Well I saw a couple of decks on deckcheck that were labeled Pro Bant and didn't have Prog so I went from there, but your right... makes sense. After more testing changes to the deck are -2 Sower -2 Ponder, +2 Jitte +1 Daze +1 Top.
What happened to the 1st Amendment?
@Shimi:
No, I didn't. I really feel a control deck doesn't need ponder. It needs shuffle effects for top and BS, yes, but that's why we are playing 8 fetches. I always slow play them to wait for a BS or a Top to have a fully use of them.
Qasali, Goyf, CB are some of the very important threats you have to answer, yes. At first I tried to cut the Dazes from the list as Probasco has been doing but I was missing them a lot. I then decided to make the 3/2 splits and it went perfect for me. If I could, I would go to 3/3 though.
Depending if you want your decklist more control or more aggro, you could go for one or the other, but I will keep the Elspeths there for sure. I might cut the Vengeants for Wrath to fight Progenitus better, though.
In testing against PRO Bant and Landstill, it has been really good to have 4 4cc spells out of the board, but it just didn't happened against Louis that I had CB top assembled when he went for N.O.
Tells me what you think!
P-M
Last edited by Enigma; 11-16-2009 at 11:45 AM.
So I just started playing Pro Bant, using John Mosier's list -1 Trygon, +1 RWM, -2 Ponder, +1 land, +1 Lorescale Coatl
and my manabase looks like this:
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah (or 1 plains?)
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
I found the ponders a little out of place, and 18 land seemed light to me.
Also, does anyone have SB plans written up for this deck?
Last edited by keys; 11-16-2009 at 07:30 PM.
So, I see Elspeth has made it into some lists and everyone says try her she is so good. My problems with her are:
1. For the longest of times people were saying 4 mana is too much
2.Wouldn't Mystic Enforcer be a better choice than requiring two of the same off color mana?
No. I tried Mystic Enforcer for a while, and it's too hard to reach Threshold. A 3/3 problack for 4 mana is rediculous. Elspeth on the other hand, is always good as long as you can cast her. Getting double white is no problem if you set up your manabase correctly. I'm not saying Elspeth is the best card for CounterTop, but if you encounter alot of Landstill in your meta, it will certainly improve your match-up.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
I played gamegeek2’s list to a 4-1 finish at a local event (20+ players) this past weekend. The only changes I made were:
-1 Daze
+1 Spell Snare
SB:
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Pyroblast
+2 Path to Exile
Round 1: Pat with Ichorid
G1: He mulls to 6 and I consider the probability he’s playing Ichorid. He opens with Gemstone -> LED. I play land, go. He cracks EOT, dredges into ‘Moeba + nothing. He Therapies targeting himself and I FoW to keep him off dredging. Eventually I Clique away his GGT and smash with a big Goyf.
+2 Crypt
+3 Pyroblast
+2 PtE
-4 Counterbalance
-2 Threads
-1 Spell Snare
G2: He dredges solidly through the first few turns with the help of PImp but hits only Ichorids/Moeba’s with no bridges. StP keeps him off Dread Return after he feeds Ichorids to Ichorids. EE at 0 for insurance. Goyf starts swinging for 5. He dredges into nothing. GG.
1-0-0, 2-0
Round 2: Ben with RB Goblins
G1: I win the roll. Land go. Land go. CB go. Vial is countered blindly. Warchief is Dazed. Matron resolves and gets in for probably 6-7 damage, but I’m able to answer his other threats with StP and EE. Eventually I find Shackles. FoW SGC and Ringleader. Goyf cleans up.
-4 Counterbalance
-2 Spell Snare
+1 Threads
+2 Path to Exile
+3 Firespout
G2: This game is highlighted by REB on Daze. Fine by me. Firespout handles double Piledriver. He’s tight on land and what he can play I can answer easily. Goyf lands. Match ends.
2-0-0, 4-0
Round 3: John with BWG Aggro-ish Rock
G1: John is probably the best player in my meta. This game sees some wild momentum swings. He rips 4 Wastelands and Vindicates my Forest but I’m somehow able to not get blown out. In the end, it comes down to him having a Top while mine gets Deeded in response to a draw activation. (Side note: if I didn’t open this game by fetching basics, I would have had no chance. Instead I fetched basics and almost won. So I’ve still to see a situation where fetching basics against Wasteland is not the right play).
+1 Spell Snare
+2 Path
+1 Threads
-3 EE
-1 Daze
G2: I open with triple Goyf and draw into the 4th. He turn 2 Hymns a Threads and Clique. +3/+3!
G3: Tight game where I have answers for all his threats and this time I find Top. I Clique away his first Top after he draws off it to Vindicate an early Goyf and have FoW for his 2nd Top. Eventually Threads on Bob seals it. Tight match.
3-0-0, 6-1
Round 4: James(?) with Monoblue Painter/CBTop/StifleNought
G1: I resolve Counterbalance and use a couple Brainstorms to counter 3-4 of his spells before finding Top. Goyf and Clique smash.
I had a difficult time sideboarding because I wanted Threads for Nought, Grip for everything, Pyroblast for everything, and PtE for Painter/Nought. I think I went
-2 Shackles
-3 EE
-3 Daze
-1 Clique
+1 Spell Snare
+2 Path to Exile
+3 Pyroblast
+3 Krosan Grip
G2: He opens with Island -> Grindstone. I play Volcanic go because I was told he doesn’t play Wasteland and I have Pyroblast in hand for a potential Counterbalance. He plays Wasteland. Great. For whatever reason, he plays Painters Servant and names blue in the face of my Volcanic Island!! I EOT Pyroblast and he Forces. On my turn I fetch a Tundra and StP his Servant. Spell Snare meets his Counterbalance. Mine resolves, I lock him out and Goyf smashes.
4-0-0, 8-1
Round 5: Dennis with Monoblue Painter/CBTop/StifleNought
At this point I’m the only 4-0 and all my defeated opponents are 3-1! It was bizarre. I’d like to ID in to the top 4 but Dennis needs to win to make it. His build is considerably different than the previous round, and he’s a much better player.
G1: He wins the roll and plays land, grindstone. I play land, go. He then plays Ancient Tomb, Chrome Mox, Counterbalance which I foolishly Daze to force a Tomb activation. He plays Top off his spare mana. Shiz. He finds Servant before I can get EE set up because I set myself so far behind with Daze and I get grinded out.
Similar boarding to Round 4.
G2: I play land, go. He plays land, grindstone. I play land, Counterbalance. He plays Tomb, Servant, I blindflip Force, he names blue (so I put him on having FoW because he knows what he’s doing). I look at my hand and see 2 Krosan Grip but no 3rd land. GG.
4-1-0, 8-3
Thoughts: I love this build, many props to gamegeek2. It’s very easy to play control with this deck without playing CBTop, but it’s also easy to just establish the soft-lock and win from there. I like the beefy counter suite and EE is so versatile as opposed to the Supreme Blue variants that have a more vulnerable manabase (due to RWM + Firespout main). Clique improves all your matchups that aren’t improved by either the heavy removal package or Counterbalance (read: control). The SB was excellent and Path was a perfect metagame choice. I would highly recommend this build to anyone looking for a really stout control-style CBTop list.
Here are my two cents:
1. IMO, the "4 cc is too much" argument applies more to "old" Threshold decks. When playing a build like Engima's (6th place at Vestal), which can become more mid/late-game oriented, dropping Elspeth on the board doesn't seem like an impossible feat (he also plays 20 lands).
2. In Enigma's list, Enforcer might take a long a time to gain threshold (e.g. no Ponders) and I don't think he'd fill Elspeth's role (for example, see some plays he made in Enigma's Vestal report). That being said, I agree it may be hard to get WW in a field populated by mana-denial (and where players are used to the match-up - i.e. where they know when to cut you from Elspeth). In that scenario, I'd either drop Elspeth if it doesn't make sense in such a metagame or I'd tinker with the manabase fo sho.
Since that's my list card for card from the Legacy Champs, with the exception of Misty Rainforests, I can give you a hand.
You're right about the Ponders and 18 lands. I'm up to 19 lands, and I'm not running Ponders anymore.
I can tell you how I'd sideboard with that list, or I can show you my current list and tell you how I sideboard with that. Which do you prefer?
"Casual sex, NO Touching/Licking/Sucking/Groping/Fondling/Riding/Tickling/Binding/Quitters/Italians. Play Fast, Be Polite, Have Fun."
Sure as hell sounds like fun.
Thanks a lot. I've made the same maindeck changes. My sideboard has 2 open slots (-2 Spell Snare, as one went into the main), which I'm definitely going to devote to the aggro matchup; I'm thinking either Path or War Monk.
Did your current list change from this? You like Trygon better than Coatl and 4th Daze?
I think I'm going to run the same Sideboard Mosier ran at the Philly 5k:
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Relic Of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trygon Predator
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
Propagandas might be better than BEBs against the field, I'll have to try that out. Maybe you can tell me how you'd SB both ways?
I'm also still considering the basic Plains... what are your thoughts on that?
OK, so I see where you guys are coming from running Elspeth and it is really cool to have a 4cc for CB, although I am not sold yet.
However, Clique is looking stronger than ever especially alongside MD Firespouts as it's in the main color, pitches to FOW, and has flash allowing you to keep mana up during your opponents turn, or mess with there hand after they brainstormed or pondered for their answer.
My feelings on the Rhino Monk are well known: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=13184
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