Show and Tell - Natural Order

[ivanpei]

This thread is to discuss this deck that T8ed at SCG Indianapolis recently:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=36632

I find that this deck seems to have plenty of potential.

Here's the list:

Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Terastodon

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

Legendary Creatures
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Progenitus

Planeswalkers
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sorceries
4 Natural Order
1 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Show and Tell

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Island

Lands
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

Land Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
3 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Vendilion Clique

Personally I feel that GSZ -> noble heirarch in this list as show and tell does not require double blue. While you've included GSZ, an eternal witness should be included as well for good measure. GSZ lets you grab tutor targets from the board like pridemage against ensnaring bridge, o-ring on emmy, moat, etc. The deck also seems like it targets a Turn 3 average show and tell/NO, but runs too many cantrips (9) which I think is a waste of tempo and a shame. The best tutor for this deck is Lim Dul's Vault as it fetches anything + pitches to force. Also black gives you the mighty thoughtseize, which is the best disruption spell next to Force of will that most importantly, does not slow the deck from reaching 3/4 mana (unlike daze).

The cuts? By splashing black, Ancient tomb has to go, random stuff like the 1 -off Jace TMS, Dazes and extra cantrips. I'm puzzled by preordain?? Ponder -> preordain as it digs 4 cards. Man this list is so raw, it needs a makeover. The list I'm starting with:

4 Birds
4 GSZ
1 Eternal Witness

4 Show and Tell
4 Natural Order
1 Terastodon
1 Proggy
4 Emmy

3 LDV
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 FOW
4 Thoughtseize

2 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty
4 Verdant
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Tropical
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou

Thoughts? IMO thoughseize -> Daze, and LDV -> Too many cantrips. GSZ IMO is the ultimate deal maker. It's a mana source turn 1, and then later, a regrowth for your NO/show and tell. A combo deck with GAS? Yes please. This has potential to be pretty ridiculous. Fast decks can race this though, so that might be a problem. What I like about the original list's board is that it transforms into some form of aggro with Tarmogoyfs and cliques. I would love to see this guys boarding plan. I assume he sides out the show and tells and emrakuls for good stuff post board. Here's my cracks at it:

SB:
1 Pridemage
4 Goyf
2 Clique
2 Blue elemental blast
4 Engineered Plaque
2 Ghastly demise/Smother

IMO, Llawan is slightly narrow, so I replaced her with plaques (which is also good vs other tribal). Goyfs and cliques+pridemage are plan B, though I would still stick to combo against pure control like landstill/countertop as they have bucketloads of removal and would have kept a couple of STPs in. I would cut show and tell/emmy for dudes against aggro control like merfolk/bant aggro/deadguy etc as assembling a 2 card combo is going to be tricky.

Last Edit: 10/02/2011

[Mark Sun]

I played against the pilot at Indianapolis with Cat Zoo (no Hierarchs, no Planeswalkers, 2 GSZ in the MD). I guess I'll share a little bit of insight on what my match was like.

Game 1 was naturally a blowout because, even with a Steppe Lynx opener, I could not race against Emrakul and quickly died to it. During the sideboarding between the first and second game, my opponent appeared to be struggling between sideboard options. I wondered if he would be boarding into the man plan post-board, and what do you know, he has double Tarmogoyf on his t3. I kept in my 4 Paths and sent them into exile, and killed him with dudes. I kept a slower hand in g3, with a Knight, removal, a Pyroblast, but no GSZ or Gaddock Teeg. I could stop two of the win conditions, but sadly not the third, as I couldn't land Gaddock Teeg fast enough.

Now that I've seen his list I'm a little annoyed at how close stopping him could have actually been, since he would have had zero outs in his deck to a resolved Gaddock Teeg. However, he was a knowledgeable pilot and did an okay job of concealing what he wanted to do. It was a good way to surprise the metagame, which I'm sure was not prepared for him.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Forgive my ignorance, but WTF is a GSZ?

EDIT: Ah, Green Sun's Zenith. There we go.

[ivanpei]

The newest and baddest bad boy in legacy:

Green Sun's Zenith

@ Morbid, thanks for your input man. Gaddock doesn't stop show and tell though. The man plan really makes things confusing. Do you think this deck is actually fast enough? Can it pull off T3 show and tells into Emmy consistently? T3 show into proggy/terastodon might not get there.

Against decks with no firespout, but plays STP would you show and tell a terastodon into play and nuke your own lands for a 9/9 and 3 3/3s on an empty board? Is that an optimal play assuming you have nothing else that's relevant in hand?

[Mark Sun]

Oh, oops, I forgot to mention I had boarded in a Karakas. That would make the explanation of having a Knight in my hand a little less confusing. I wasn't that worried about Show and Tell and it's likely that he boarded out his Terastadon against me, which is agreeably awful against Zoo.

I think the deck can be fairly fast. 8 mana bugs, 11 cantrips (way too much, if I had a Steppe Lynx in g3 he would have lost, my notes have him at 12 when he cast Natural Order, and that was turn 4 after a couple of multi-cantrip turns, I had a tiny Goyf in play), will probably do it for you. Against decks without countermagic, a t2 Show and Tell is possible, and is sometimes all you need, even against decks that may or may not be equipped to deal with you. It also does well at masquerading as any type of Bant Deck in the first few turns until it goes off. I would wager he had a hard time against Merfolk/taxing countermagic though, but it doesn't look like there was much of it this time.

I'm not sure what the relevant play would be with Terastadon, but I'm guessing it's probably similar to any decision trees that Reanimator would have to take in that case.

[ivanpei]

I just tested my GUB list, man is it beasting. Sorry, it's 9 cantrips in the original. Mistyped there. But even 9 is too much, LDV has been rocking for me instead. So has the thoughtseizes. I cut a swamp for the 2nd dryad arbor, this deck is very dependant on that card, and drawing it hasn't been terrible. EDIT: Just played a game, After GSZ-ing out an arbod T1 and a subsequent T3 NO into proggy, the 2nd arbor was such a standout. Having a fetchland ninja-ing out the 2nd arbor to block FTW was priceless!

Black is a very light splash, so not having the swamp didn't hurt much. The blue count is a bit low though, @ 18 cards. I find it just barely enough to support force. I'm very tempted to switch terastodon to the 2nd proggy. But I lose the option to NO/LDV into terastodon. I lose my only MD out to crap like ensnaring bridge. Against aggro, when about to be swamped by folk, No-pro into proggy would have lost me the game but no-pro into terastodon, blowing up all my islands and giving me an army was amazing. I stopped the assault immediately and started going sideways with my 9/9.

This deck consistently goes T3 Show and tell/ NO. This is just about fast enough to win vs aggro, but cutting it very close if you are NO-ing into proggy T3. Show and tell T3 into emrakul gets there 95% of the time. Against control, this deck is doing surprisingly well. GSZ into witness is all star here, returning countered combo components to try again. Man is GSZ broken!

[Zirath]

I think this deck has the potential to run more NO targets; I'm thinking along the lines of Empyrial Archangel. I'm not sure if there are any other good targets.

Chain of Vapor seems necessary in the board.

[ivanpei]

Archangel seems only good against burn, but I don't mind rolling the dice against them anyway as burn is a small % of the field. As for chain in the board? What do you really need to bounce? You can ignore counterbalance with 3cc/4cc spells and you can play around meddling mage by going for the other combo. GSZ -> Pridemage or NO -> Terastodon deals with most things. You also play LDV. Man this deck can run so many tutors and is really hard to hate. The only issue is speed. I tested against goblins and I hate show and tell vs them, its like I give them a free matron to tutor up stingscourger for my emmy or a free SCG which allows them to alpha me. NO is really good against them though.

[Zirath]

If you splash black, Chain is probably not worth it. If you don't, it answers pretty much everything before you NO or Tell, like Teeg.

Archangel also can slow down decks like Goblins and Fish so you can draw another target if you think NO-Prog won't seal the deal.

Looking through the list of targets, the only other good NO target is Woodfall Primus, but he competes with Terastodon.

[ivanpei]

I like terastodon more than woodfall primus. I've tested archangel in NO-lists before and her saving grace was that she is pitchable to force. Against, goblins and fish, archangel is a fog and thats about it, they swing with 8 or more power (very common) and archangel will die, leaving you @ square one. Terastodon on the other hand, hits the table and turns all your lands into 3/3s. I've won games by being able to put 18 power on the board straight away. Its pretty busted against decks like gobs and folk which have limited removal and no sweepers/stp.

[ivanpei]

Tested against zoo, goblins and reanimator today with my very competent testing partner. This deck is legit, it rocks zoo and goblins without problem like any combo deck should. Reanimator was a major problem though. We both run similar disruption suits but he is a turn faster than me on average and locks me out with Iona. Reanimator is probably the worse mu. I'm gonna cut the 4th emmy, zeniths and 1 arbor, 1 witness for the 4th ldv, nobles and 2 more ponders.

The black splash IMO is a must. You cannot consistently assemble show and tell without LDV. 6 show and tell targets was too much. I hate getting 2 targets in hand. 20 lands was also too much. Gsz into dryad was disappointing, dryad doesn't make blue or black so it can't cast cantrips or thoughtseize. Gsz into eternal witness was too slow. It's only good against the heaviest control. Against aggro control decks which are more common, you would be dead by then. Thoughtseize and LDV are beasting. I have no idea how the deck can consistently fight hate and go off without then.

[Karhumies]

This thread is to discuss this deck that T8ed at SCG Indianapolis recently:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=36632
...
SB:
1 Pridemage
4 Goyf
2 Clique
2 Blue elemental blast
4 Engineered Plaque
2 Ghastly demise/Smother

Depending on the meta, I would consider also the following sideboard cards:
Pithing Needle (Karakas, utility)
Null Rod (Lion's Eye Diamond, Sensei's Divining Top, utility)
Wipe Away (Counterbalance, utility, anti-hate)
Maelstrom Pulse (utility, anti-hate)
Pernicious Deed (utility, although not phenomenal in this deck)
Xantid Swarm (Counterspell, synergy with NO)
Echoing Truth (Tokens)
Infest (Goblins, possibly more useful than E.Plague when drawn in singles, utility)
Darkblast (Peacekeeper)

[ivanpei]

Thanks, I especially like the xantid swarms. They serve as fodder to NO once they have attacked. Pretty cool synergy. Much better than extra duress/ pierces in the board. However with zenith's cut from the deck, they're not as good and will have to be in multiples in the board. Though I find that going the man plan post board isn't the best idea, this deck doesn't transform very well into anything and the hate that can be brought in is quite limited. The deck is not graveyard based, activated ability based or anything. It's mainly a spell/creature based deck that is weak to stuff like perish, ensnaring bridge, o-ring alongside counterspells and discard.

This deck is not incredibly fast, and thats a major downside. It can be raced by almost every combo deck in the format and is borderline quick enough against aggro. Reminds me of solidarity really. But it is extremely consistent and has very good game against control. I've cut LDV back down to 3 again, assembling the combo wasn't a problem, its making sure the spell resolves the first time you cast it. So I'm playing 1 copy of duress instead which is also very good against combo and control. Speed is another issue in this deck. You have to play this really tight to squeeze out wins against combo decks. I was thinking of a couple of tombs like the original deck list but being in 3 colours and losing life to LDV and thoughtseize kinda makes tombs unsatisfactory.

[Nonkel]

What is wrong with this deck imho, is that it's betting on two horses (is this proper english, lol!).
I was toying around with this list, and suddenly it hit me. Show and Tell forces you to play a higher creature count so you have both Show and Tell and a creature in your hand. NO wants you to have a creature in your library, so it profits from a low creature count. How to solve this?

Two answers: Worldly Tutor and Personal Tutor. Its so simple I can't believe this wasn't thought of earlier.
Worldly tutor fetches Show and Tell targets, so you can keep creature count low. It doubles as a fetch for NO sac targets, like Dryad Arbor and Noble hierarch.
Show and Tell and NO are both sorceries, so Personal Tutor is insane when it comes down to consistently going off.
Also, ALL fetches are able to get Dryad Arbor so no need to run a high count on sac creatures. Lose the bobs, dont need them.

Here is the list I came up with. It still needs some finetuning but I did some goldfishing and it looks very promising I must say:

Natural Show

4 Noble Hierarch
1 Terastodon
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Progenitus

4 Show and Tell
3 Natural Order

4 Personal Tutor
4 Worldly Tutor
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

4 Force of Wil
3 Daze

4 Lotus Petal
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills

Any suggestions more than welcome!

[kinda]

It was tested before, look here http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ht=#post471529. It's a lot of card disadvantage and personal tutor+worldly tutor hands are unkeepable.

Edit: Nvm it's in this thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...and-Tell/page2 .

[ivanpei]

Thanks for the links, they make for good reading! Yeah, apparently its been done before. I've kinda stopped trying to tune the deck. No matter what you do, it's still too slow. This deck is inferior in every way to Necrotic Ooze combo (with board to show and tell), which is much quicker and equally resilient.

[kinda]

Yeah I agree that natural order unfortunately is too slow. I haven't tested the ooze deck (haven't played legacy since mid last semester) but it does looks solid, especially since it can transform into personal tutor+snt.dec which I felt was the strongest deck for a while. Just glancing over the lists the 6 creatures in the sb worries me...I found that I always wanted at least 8 even with 4-8 cantrips and ldv's.

[Nonkel]

It was tested before, look here http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ht=#post471529. It's a lot of card disadvantage and personal tutor+worldly tutor hands are unkeepable.

Edit: Nvm it's in this thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...and-Tell/page2 .

I scanned both threads but nothing very relevant there. I think you are missing the point. All decklist I come across in those threads run boatloads of creatures, I only play 3. This frees up around 5 slots on average!
Also, I never saw both worldly tutor and personal tutor included in one list. And finally, this list is UG so much less open to mana disruption.

I dont think NO is too slow. With some luck it can be played turn 2, more easily turn 3. SnT turn 1 possible, easily turn 2.
Ill playtest my list with a few friends of mine (goblins, merfolk, junk etc) and see how it plays out.

[ivanpei]

BUMP,

This deck T16ed another Starcitygames open:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=36849

I think this deck is legit, and my tech suggestion of GSZ got picked up apparently, though I subsequently cut GSZ. Still seems a smidgen too slow. I think he met alot of blue on the way to the Top 16. This deck is very strong vs blue.

[Jigga_Tech]

BUMP,

This deck T16ed another Starcitygames open:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=36849

I think this deck is legit, and my tech suggestion of GSZ got picked up apparently, though I subsequently cut GSZ. Still seems a smidgen too slow. I think he met alot of blue on the way to the Top 16. This deck is very strong vs blue.

This deck looks like a blast to play. I'm just getting the last few cards for it so I can start testing it. Looks like I may need some GSZ though. What's up with the 1 fauna shaman? What do you go get with that?