[Deck] Goblins

[Skeggi]

Torpor Orb
Artifact - 2

Creatures entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger.


On a serious note, this card could really screw us over. You think that this card will see play enough play in Legacy that we will need to add extra artifact destruction to the board (shattering spree, etc.)? We difinitely have enough options in the arty-destruction category

I agree.

Sure this card is a house against Goblins, but so is Tivadar's Crusade.
This card is less a "Goodbye Goblins" than a "Hello Dreadstill" and much more an absolute " Farewell Counterbalance!!".

Tivadar's Crusade is crap. Its mana cost is too restrictive. Farewell Counterbalance would be a bad thing, because it's a good match-up for us while it keeps Combo at bay.

i wonder how will this card affect the broken turn 1 plays.

Mental Misstep PU
Instant (U)
Counter target spell with converted mana cost 1.

This will probably be a new legacy staple, so it will find its way into decks, so we will encounter it and on occassion have our turn 0 Aether Vial or Goblin Lackey countered. Remember, people don't have to play blue to play this card. We could play it too.

[Avatara]

This card is less a "Goodbye Goblins" than a "Hello Dreadstill" and much more an absolute " Farewell Counterbalance!!".

It doesn't work on Counterbalance because it triggers on spells being cast and not on creatures entering the battlefield.

[Skeggi]

It doesn't work on Counterbalance because it triggers on spells being cast and not on creatures entering the battlefield.

Ofcourse, that's right. Thank god, Counterbalance lives! Imagine the meta without Counterbalance; Goblins wouldn't stand a chance.

[GoboLord]

@ Avatara: You are right, thanks!
@ Skeggi: You are wrong. What you wrote sounds like Goblins can only beat CB-decks :-D
This is hypothetical of course, but image a meta without Counterbalance.dec. According to you this means that lack of CB increases the number of stormcombo-decks. This in turn would demand decks that can effectively beat storm-combo. Examples of such decks would be Threshold-variants, Merfolk and maybe Dragon Stompy (they get some nice stuff with New Phyrexia btw.). This hypothetical metagame would leave us exactly at the same point where we are now.
btw. I didn't see any succesful CB deck for a while - so we might already have reached the point you are afaid of.

[Skeggi]

There's not one deck as good at beating Storm Combo as CounterTop. The decks you mention are reasonable against Storm, but nowhere near as strong as CounterTop. You've seen it in the Dutch meta, CounterTop is on the decline, Storm Combo is heaving a field day.

For example, the top 8 of the Dutch Masters (as you know) was half Storm Combo:
Doomsday
Dark Horizons
Merfolk
Spiral Tide
Goblins (you)
TES
ANT
Elf-combo

The decks which are a bad match-up for CounterTop: Dark Horizons, Merfolk and Goblins.
The decks which are a bad match-up for Goblins: Doomsday, Spiral Tide, ANT, TES, Elf-Combo. Semi: Goblins

This was not a favourable top8 for Goblins, as you've noticed. If you want to win tournaments, you wouldn't oppose to see more CounterTop in the top8.

[GoboLord]

That's correct:
CB is a postive MU for Gobs.
CB is very good in beating stromcombo (although I find Threshold Variants just as good because they usually have a faster clock and don't give their opponent time to find mana + protection).
And I'd rather like to see CB than stromcombo in the top8 when I want to win a tourney.

Still I find it a bit exagerated to say that "without CB Goblins wouldn't stand a chance".
I just wanted to point out that Goblins has more favorable MUs like: Merfolk, Dragon Stompy and many 50/50 MUs like Landstill and most Thresh Variants.

[ScatmanX]

I don't think that Orb will see much play. It is AWESOME against us, but only against us. If it was that good against two other decks, then it would definitely see play I guess.

Now, Mental Misstep is a card I really didn't like seeing printed.
First, if fits every single deck. Tempo decks will haply play 4 of these, no questions asked. CB decks now have a solid out to Lacky/Vial, even on the draw. This card is better than Trap at hosing non-Belcher combo (it can counter the Duress/Orim Chant from TES/ADN, and High Tide from Spiral Tide, and these were the big weaknes of Trap).

Of course, we can run it, and probably will HAVE to run it. This is our answerer to Lackey/Vial/Seize/Stifle on the draw. This counter half of Zoo's deck. This is good against Combo. The only deck it sucks against is Stax/Stompy decks.
And if everyone start running this, things will get so boring, with Mental Misstep counterwars... I just don't like it...

[Justin]

Well, if mistep proves to be so good that everyone is running it, I guess it wil get banned eventually. I do share your concern, though. It's a mistake to print a free counter with no card disadvantage that any deck can run. Paying two life on turn one is such a small drawback. What were they thinking?

[GoboLord]

What were they thinking?

I think you can leave out the "What".

Actually I'm not very sure if this card is very effective against Goblins.
Let's look at the facts:

* we usually have 8 card in MD with cc1: Lackey and Vial. That leaves us with 52 cards in MD (and 67 cards including SB if you built it well) that are toally uneffected by MM.
* there are already good answers to both of them: Swords to Plowshares, Innocent Blood, Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, blocking creatures, Force of Will, Daze, Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker.
* we don't lose the game for not having Lackey and/or Vial. We usually win an interaction of several cards.
* MM costs 2 life (which matters when you are trying to ward off aggro decks)
* MM is not a wincondition - it's another spell that "answers" threats
* to effectively make use of MM against Goblins you need a turn-1 Lackey or Vial AND your opponent need MM on his opening hand. Meaning: MM is a very bad topdeck when you are playing against Goblins.


Most decks will probably either
a) replace their already existing MD-answers with MM (because MM is a very strong and flexible card)
or
b) run it in SB (like we should do)
In fact MM just increases the quality of the answer on our turn-1-plays - this card will most likely not be run in addition to other answers, because there isn't enough room for that many "answersing" cards in most decks.

[Deady]

I think it's a wrong thought to play Misstep only to be able to counter an opposing Misstep. If everybody would think that way, it would mess up the consistency of many decks. Just accept that Countertop decks finally have an answer to Vial/Lackey; there's nothing you can do about that. Mental Misstep will only be great in decks that have big, big troubles with some well known 1cmc cards, otherwise it's wasted space in either the mainboard or sideboard.

Tough up and fight like a Goblin!

[GoboLord]

Just accept that Countertop decks finally have an answer to Vial/Lackey

It's not that CB didn't have answers before MM was printed. Answers to Lackey/Vial or not: the MU wil stay very favorable.

Tough up and fight like a Goblin!

...what do you mean? Dirty, crazy and unfair?

[jrw1985]

Mental Misstep is going to find a place in Legacy, for certain, but I'm not certain where. It doesn't make much sense as a SB card since the curve is so low that it's almost always applicable. It seems pretty decent against Storm Combo, but not really better than Chalice or Mindbreak Trap. Being able to play it T0 is amazing, yes, but against combo it can only kill a Ritual, Brainstorm, or Duress effect. Hitting any of these is good, but not great, and you pretty much have to throw it at the first 1cc spell they play (since everything else they cast could just be 2 or 0cc). I actually think it could be pretty amazing against Zoo. If you're fortunate enough to draw MM and Lackey you can either blast a blocker or removal spell. The obvious downside is that MM is just not a Goblin, so it's inclusion thins the deck for a relatively narrow effect.

Also- Phyrexia 1 casting cost spells for black, blue and green, but no love for white or red? What gives?

[Vandalize]

It's not that CB didn't have answers before MM was printed. Answers to Lackey/Vial or not: the MU wil stay very favorable.


...what do you mean? Dirty, crazy and unfair?

I think he meant T1 Warren Instigator (with C.Mox) dropping a SGC + Chieftain on triggers plus a Piledriver for T3.

@Mental Misstep: you'll only find place in decks that die before they can do something (looking at you CB :D). Tempo decks have better answers in form of Stifle/FoW/Daze. And they usually run a lot of spot removal, so perhaps Mental Misstep will only be a good Brainstorm counterspell, lol.

[ScatmanX]

Ok, MAYBE I just overreacted up there. I just messed around with my latest goblin build, and I actually haven't found a spot for MM...

[Amon Amarth]

Mental Misstep is going to find a place in Legacy, for certain, but I'm not certain where. It doesn't make much sense as a SB card since the curve is so low that it's almost always applicable. It seems pretty decent against Storm Combo, but not really better than Chalice or Mindbreak Trap. Being able to play it T0 is amazing, yes, but against combo it can only kill a Ritual, Brainstorm, or Duress effect. Hitting any of these is good, but not great, and you pretty much have to throw it at the first 1cc spell they play (since everything else they cast could just be 2 or 0cc). I actually think it could be pretty amazing against Zoo. If you're fortunate enough to draw MM and Lackey you can either blast a blocker or removal spell. The obvious downside is that MM is just not a Goblin, so it's inclusion thins the deck for a relatively narrow effect.

Also- Phyrexia 1 casting cost spells for black, blue and green, but no love for white or red? What gives?

QFT. As a SB card it's worse than Mindbreak Trap when Storm is going off with no protection. I think I'd still rather play Chalice. MM has more applications but it's not as good as everyone thinks it is.

MM won't really affect any of our matchup percentages. Yes, now they can counter Vial, Lackey reliably. 'Course now they start drawing blanks when we are playing Piledrivers, Warchiefs, and Ringleaders.

[ScatmanX]

Ok, MAYBE I just overreacted up there. I just messed around with my latest goblin build, and I actually haven't found a spot for MM...

Hm, maybe I have found the 4 spots. Really want to try it, just to see if it is worth it or not. I'm really bad when it comes to speculating.

[GoboLord]

Could you share the list? I will test them anyway so it might help me with designing the deck.

[ScatmanX]

I am still testing my list with Brainstorms, so I'll just put MM in place of those.

Lands: 22
1 or 2 Ports
Core: 26
Other: 12
4 Mental Misstep
1 Sharpshooter
3 MWM
4 Gempalm Incinerator

SB
3 Pyroblast
4 CotV
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Knesis
1 Bolt
1 Stingscourger
2 Boartusk Liege

I was actually really liking the Brainstorm, but will test this nonetheless...
Also, I really wanted a Skirk Prospector MD. Maybe in place of a Gempalm, since we can actually counter Nacatls....

Edit: Actually, now that we have some protection against removal, some cards should go up in value, like Wort and Liege MD.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Now, Mental Misstep is a card I really didn't like seeing printed.
First, if fits every single deck. Tempo decks will haply play 4 of these, no questions asked. CB decks now have a solid out to Lacky/Vial, even on the draw. This card is better than Trap at hosing non-Belcher combo (it can counter the Duress/Orim Chant from TES/ADN, and High Tide from Spiral Tide, and these were the big weaknes of Trap).

Of course, we can run it, and probably will HAVE to run it. This is our answerer to Lackey/Vial/Seize/Stifle on the draw. This counter half of Zoo's deck. This is good against Combo. The only deck it sucks against is Stax/Stompy decks.
And if everyone start running this, things will get so boring, with Mental Misstep counterwars... I just don't like it...

I think mental misstep is acually very good for goblins. It "only" counters lackey and vial, it won't help control to consistently beat us but it will help us beat a lot of weak matchups.

[Humphrey]

Well, I might try 4MM Mainboard and 4 Traps SB. Either one doesnt help against combo very much, since it just get discarded and MM main might be useful for countering opp 1drops, stp, MM.

But what I fear the most is that MM is pushing Merfolk over the top again, giving this deck 12 free counters and answers to the most feared threads, like lackey, vial, bolt and lavamancer