If anyone is interested, here is the decklist I've drawn up post-MM banning:
// Lands - 14
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
// Dredgers - 13
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Darkblast
// Self-Discard - 7
3 Phantasmagorian
4 Putrid Imp or Tireless Tribes
// Draw - 8
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
// GY Goodies - 18
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 4 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Ancestor's Chosen
I've come to the conclusion that DDDing is the correct strategy, even without Mental Misstep. I want to credit Breathweapon, someone who hasn't posted in a while, with forcing me to constantly re-evaluate the DDD strategy. I encourage all of you to actually practice the DDD strategy to see for yourself. For now, I'm going to continue developing Dredge which maintains the DDD approach as the default strategy.
A few thoughts:
I'm largely against LED in Dredge. Even when looking for speed, I still prefer not to use it. I think I can build breakneck speed dredge which is just as fast on average and yet far more consistent than LED dredge, even when DDDing (if that is surprising to you).
Anyone DDDing should be using at least 2 Phantasamagorians, and more if you can squeeze it.
With 2 Phantasmagorians, you break the 50% chance mark to see one by your 10th card dredged (assuming you are DDDing).
With 3 Phantasmagorians, you break the 50% chance mark to see one by your 5th card dredged (assuming you are DDDing).
With 4 Phantasmagorians, you break the 50% chance mark to see one by your 2rd card dredged (assuming you are DDDing).
I'm trying to see where I can fit the 4th, but I'm okay with 3 for now.
The 4 flex slots are still a bit open. I was recently convinced by an argument that since I'm more heavily relying upon Ichorid than usual (I'm used to Ichorid playing a backseat role, as I am so used to standard LEDless with 3 Ichorids), then I should favor PImp over tribe. I know I love Tribe's blocking, so it isn't clear. I'd also like to point out that Brainstorm is a contender for this slot if I'm building for speed. This greatly increases the odds of those Dredger, Land, Draw hands, whereby I have a broken turn two, and as MM is out of the metagame, I think going for that mana'd draw spells makes some sense. However, I feel quite comfortable having Pimp or Tribe in g2/3 when dealing with GY hate, and I am more worried about GY hate than I am about racing opposing combos. How I wish they made a card which said: U, instant, as an additional cost discard 2 cards, draw 3 cards. I wouldn't even play PImp/Tribe if this existed.
peace,
4eak
Last edited by 4eak; 09-21-2011 at 02:18 AM.
@4eak
Why exactly would you play DDDing over traditional 8 discard-dudes with the banning of Mental Misstep? I mean, their bodies are better than the Phantasmagorian's free discard against either Aggro (Zoo and Goblins are probably getting more space in meta) and Combo (Storm getting back as well).
Is there another use for Phantasmagorian (beyond the counter-free discard) that makes it better than PImp/Tribe?
...is Ancestor's Chosen still needed in the side, nowadays? I think Iona and Elesh are both better in any situation.
Also, what about an Terastodon / Primus / Angel as a 1-off in the main? Sometimes there are these pesky cards that say "you lose g1 if you don't handle me".
I could easily imagine to DDD every time and play 12 Breakthrough/Study/Brainstorm and kick Tribe/Imp without looking back.
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16:- (See, now Erratic Explosion's a deck)
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13
@ Mojeh
You don't have to "play DDDing over traditional 8 discard-dudes." Note that DDDing, as a default strategy, and PImp/Tribe are not mutually exclusive. Even when I'm playing PImp/Tribe, I've moved to drawing, and I'm often forced to DDD. That doesn't mean you always DDD, but you end up doing it very often.
If you are DDDing with 13 dredgers, you have an 88% chance to open with a dredger in 8 cards (84% in 7). Going DDD is a very consistent approach. That's a very high chance to get "slow dredging" going, and it is uncounterable.
With 10 Rainbow lands (and 4 CC's), 4x of both PImp/Tribe, and 13 Dredgers (which is more than most play), you only have a 36% chance to see at least one rainbow land, one PImp or Tribe, and one Dredger in your opening 7. You won't consistently get the hand you want. You are either burning your draw spells just to get cards in your GY, waiting a full turn to get to 8 cards, hardcasting Therapy on yourself, or mulliganing -- all of which are not great options. Including any spell which can get a card into the GY (be it therapy, or a draw spell, or a PImp/Tribe), you have ~60% chance to open a 7-card hand which can get "slow dredging" going. Them's really low odds for what you get. Worse, a Daze or Force is devastating. Add in Wasteland, and you might not have a chance to follow it up. And, even if you resolve PImp/Tribe, if you only have 1 dredger and you don't happen to chain dredge into another dredger, and you lack additional discard outlets, then removal actually will timewalk you.
You do see how DDDing makes plenty of sense for raw consistency, right? It starts to look even better for DDDing.
When DDDing With 14 blue producing lands, 8 draw spells, and 13 dredgers, you have a 53% chance to have a starting 8 hand with a dredger, a land, and a draw spell (I've not included the odds of drawing CC + another land). Note, DDDing gives you almost as high of a chance to be using a draw spell to dredge a sizable chunk of your deck over on turn 2 as merely the chance to get "slow dredging" going when not employing the DDD strategy.
I recognize that I've not included some low percentage exceptions (there are, for example, keepable non-dredger hands), but this should give you at least the intuitions to see why DDDing is worthwhile.
So, assuming you can agree (or at least for the sake of argument agree) that DDDing as a strategy is a viable (if not the best) approach to getting your dredge engine rolling (which I think of as the paramount task at stake), we then need to look at how to build around that strategy.
Note that I'm still running 4x of either Tribe of Pimp (for now). So, the real question is why I'm not interested in running the other 4x of either Tribe or Pimp?
Why not run the last 4x PImp or Tribe? Why is Phantasmagorian worth it? When you are DDDing, PImp and Tribe are substantially less impressive. They are amazing when you mulligan, they are amazing when you need to recover from GY hate -- i.e. they are amazing when you don't have 8 cards in hand and you don't have a dredger in the GY. Blocking, attacking, and improving sac effects are gravy, but they aren't the root of what you are trying to do. Unfortunately, these cards are subject to control, which is not what you want in Dredge.
Phantasmagorian does almost everything PImp and Tribe do in terms of continuous discard throughout the game. Phantasmagorian is basically a free, uncounterable, damageless PImp which is immune to board control/removal. You get to empty your hand (with 2, you can do it incrementally) at instant speed, and your opponent has no say in the matter, no way to disrupt you with permission or removal. You don't need to worry about having anything but a dredger in your opening 8, that's it. Not having a land or a draw spell or a discard mechanism doesn't matter. Phantasmagorian lets Dredge do what it should be doing - avoiding interaction.
Note, Phantasmagorian gives you the discard benefits of a PImp/Tribe without even having to see it in your opening hand. That's powerful! PImp or tribe are junk (merely fodder for Ichorid, DR's on GGT, and Threshold) when you are dredging them, and Phantasmagorian is pure gold when you dredge it. Phantasmagorian let's you keep almost any hand.
Even to get to 4x Tribe/PImp, I'd need to cut more than just the 3x Phantasmagorian. I'd probably need to cut a Golgari Thug. That alone makes DDDing and chain dredging worse by a non-trivial amount.
@ NecroYawgmoth
Ancestor's Chosen is primarily there for Zoo (where Iona isn't as strong). It happens to be your second target in Burn, Sligh, and Tendrils matchups (Iona is preferred, but you'll take any target you can get)....is Ancestor's Chosen still needed in the side, nowadays? I think Iona and Elesh are both better in any situation.
I'm used to playing at least one of these in the sideboard. Frankly, they've been extremely underwhelming as of late. Grudge and Ray have been preferred. I'm certainly not against running a Vindicate-Creature DR target if the future metagame warrants it.Also, what about an Terastodon / Primus / Angel as a 1-off in the main? Sometimes there are these pesky cards that say "you lose g1 if you don't handle me".
I've never done it, but I will be testing it. That would give me a 65% chance to open with a dredger/land/draw spell in my 8 cards (again, not including CC + land). Pretty sweet turn 2 odds.I could easily imagine to DDD every time and play 12 Breakthrough/Study/Brainstorm and kick Tribe/Imp without looking back.
peace,
4eak
I've tried your list from SCG.. I think it's really explosive. Do you think it's the right move to go back to putrid imp though? I mean, it's not like they aren't carrying FOW still.. don't you feel just the old DDD plan is just better.. if they do put you on the play, you can either DDD or careful study into it.. I think the plan was fine. I breakthroughed with your deck, and the dredger density was pretty good. I didn't have trouble dredging half my deck with one breakthrough at all. So it definitely feels as explosive as LED dredge. I also like relying on ichorid more than mana dredge.
I think your list is still viable even with street wraith. I'm curious about your extra land though. Is that necessary? It feels like it'll hurt the dredging..
If you're focusing on hybridizing DDD with land, cantrip on turn 2, I think you need to consider whether or not Cephalid Coliseum is better than a combination of Undiscovered Paradise and Brainstorm, because while Lion's Eye Diamond and Putrid Imp, Tireless Tribe versions of Dredge can turn Cephalid Coliseum into a turn 1 or turn 2 play respectively, your deck will always play Cephalid Coliseum turn 3 and it requires 2 lands in hand and limits Cabal Therapy, Dark Blast and your SBing with a mana constraint.
Consider for a second,
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Gemstone Mine
3 City of Brass
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return
2 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Brainstorm
By clearing out Cephalid Coliseum, you leave yourself with enough lands to consistently resolve cantrips (about 11) and can use the added space to increase speed by about a turn via the Dread Return package.
As far as why play DDD over Pimp/Tribe, I think the simple answer is DDD has always been better than Pimp/Tribe by avoiding Force of Will and/or Daze and taking the tempo loss. It just took MMS to invalidate the strategy, forcing people to investigate alternatives to realize it wasn't actually as good as people really thought it was.
While I think you do raise an interesting point, I'd like to hear you elaborate a bit on what, exactly, is the incentive to remove the Coliseums in this particular list, seeng's how all of the castable spells in the MD are blue. Sideboard purposes only?
Honestly, Cephalid Coliseum shouldn't ever be cut from the deck. Uncounterable draw spell that can help you cast the counterable ones, that's exactly what you want in this deck.
@4eak,
I would also favor PImp over Tireless, as I've done this before when I switched Tireless for Firestorm, just because of Ichorid, specially since you run 4 Ichorid. Tireless is good blocker, but is not worth it -> You will be dredging into them more often than casting them.
The best reason I can think for you to favor PImp over Street Wraith or a draw spell like Brainstorm, is to accelerate the game in case you are on the play (forced, so game 2 or 3) against a deck that doesn't have counter.
In this case, I think you could as well consider Firestorm, not only because it's better against Aggro, but because you will get more versatility from it, being uncounterable. You are already good at DDD, hitting an uncounterable dredger in graveyard could be gamebreaker.
The obvious downside is that it is not a black creature, and then I'd have to try and see how it goes for Ichorid. I've played with 4 PImps + 4 Firestorm before, and it was OK, but I didn't test with 4 Ichorids.
If it's the case that you need more black creatures in that configuration (or even in a configuration with 12 castable draw spells), I'd switch back to your exactly SCG list, but with -1 Street Wraith +1 Tarnished
This is what I'll test:
// Lands [14]
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
// Dredgers [13]
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Darkblast
// Discard [7]
3 Phantasmagorian
4 Firestorm
// Draw [8]
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
// etc [18]
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
@ 4eak:
Thank you very much for sharing your post MM approach. I can say that I like it very much, for the list that I sleeved up yesterday, right after I had calmed down from celebrating the MM ban, looks very similar to yours. I've also come to the conclusion that Phanta could have a permanent slot in the deck, no matter if MM is banned or not. The DDD strategy is just so hugely improved with him. For now, I have Putrid Imp in those 4 'flex slots', as you called them, and I have to say that I wouldn't replace them with Tribes. Compared to your pre MM ban list, you took out the Street Wraiths for them, which are undoubtedly the first creatures you feed to Ichy every turn. And my testing (of one day) has shown that I need PImp to fill that role.
The Brainstorm idea is actually interesting, I guess I'll test that as well. However, I'm not sure if I want to give up my best ways to restart my engine after hate or mulligans for it. I really think that some kind of discard dork is necessary, especially post board. That's also why I had always kept 4 Firestorms in my board and boarded them in along the anti hate in my pre-MM-ban hybrid list.
@ Final Fortune:
I don't think that we can ever give up Cephalid Coliseum. Post board we often need two lands in play in order to hardcast Ancient Grudge. Also, now that MM is banned I expect people to play more Daze again, so more land is always a good thing. Your proposed list only has 11 lands total, while you can easily play 14 without losing a draw spell if you have CC. On top of that, CC is uncounterable as a draw effect, which is hugely relevant. The amazing double-role it plays in any Dredge list, being both a land as well as an uncounterable draw effect, just makes it too good. I'd never play less than 4 of them, no matter what kind of list.
EDIT: I really believe that in a hybrid type of list with Phantasmagorian that mostly wants to draw first and play DDD, Undiscovered Paradise is just better than Tarnished. Tarnished is undoubtedly better in lists that want to play and drop a dork turn 1 plus activate CC turn 2. But in this type of deck it was definitely better for me than Tarnished.
EDIT 2: I have the 4th Phantasmagorian over the 13th Dredger for now. I'll see if that works better than 13 Dredgers plus 3 Phanta.
4eak, thanks for wanting me to play Dredge again!=)
Im playing a MD similar to yours but with the SB:
1 Darkblast
1 Terastodon
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Flame-kin Zealot
4 Nature's Claim
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
Testing went insane :D
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
I like this idea, which set of dredgers are you using? 3 Thug + DB ? I'm insterested in your considerations on this test.
Have you considered Firestorm over PImp?
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
I plan on using 3 Thugs plus DB, yes. DB is just so nice to have in some specific scenarios and I really want to keep it in.
And I've also thought about Firestorm or Tireless Tribe in PImp's slot. While I haven't tested Firestorm yet, I always had the feeling that with Tribe, I was occasionally a bit short on black creatures to feed the 4 Ichorids (and this list really wants to have 4 Ichorids, I believe). Maybe it's possible with 4 Thugs. Or maybe one could try 2 Firestorm plus 2 PImps, I don't know. But I'll test everything.
I'll also try the Brainstorm in that slot even though I don't expect it to convince me. Something I like about it though, is its ability to put Narcomoebas and/or draw spells or Therapies on top while being able to dump your whole hand with Phantas anyway. Seems like Phanta could nullify the big disadvantage of BS that way.
Ok... Well, I'm not sure about the 12 dredgers instead of 13, because it's crucial to hit a dredger on opening hand, but it's not that important to have 'gorian.
Also, for Firestorm over PImp, consider that you'll be using exactly the same number of black creatures as the standard discard-dork list, since you use 'gorian. Also, you can always pitch Ichorids, and you will be using one extra Ichorid.
Well, testing will tell. Let us know how test goes for you, pls! :D
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
Just start reading the thread. Has a question about last builds. Let's imagine you have 8 cards in hand. How will you choose what to do: play land, play PImp and discard dredger next upkeep or just discard dredger EOT?
Seems it is now the time to think about how the so announced flex slots pull MU's into the decks favour.
That whole DDD-ing plan (which is and was completely underestimated) seems way too slow against the rise of different combo-decks, even if it somehow equals the upcoming Tempo MU's in a great way.
I am pretty happy that some of you give nmbrs and percentages to figure out if its really worth it to give up those traditional 15 lands and 7-8 permanent discard-outlets, which have been considered (almost) as the best thing that could be played in the past.
I still need to be convinced (and really looking forward that this will happen) that this is the way to go, but atm I am way to concerned about all different sort of storm-based combo decks that you are unable to race (well, at least thats what my experience/testing in the pre MM aera had shown me, as said above, I definetly can be told better at that point) with these tweaks.
That beeing said, plus the more worse postboard games that will occur (logically based upon the lack of additional perm. disc. outlets) lead me to the thought, that the deck as it stands for now (relying a bit heavier on the DDD-ing route) maybe needs different/more efficient sb strategies that allows the deck to be in a better position against GY-hate and Fastcombo.
Just some thoughts. Thanks for sharing your experience and thoughts on the whole topic, really looking forward to Dredge beeing Top-Tier in the near future, which seems very possible IMO.
Greetings
In response...Hypothek!
Fundamental turn faster, if you DDD turn 1 you want to resolve a draw spell on turn 2 and not on turn 3. I don't see Cephalid Coliseum as the sacred cow in Dredge, despite being an "all around" card if you're not pushing it's fundamental turn by playing land turn 1 for a turn 2 CC or Lion's Eye Diamond and a Deep Analysis its just kind of slow.
Also Cephalid Coliseum is incredibly bad game 2 as a draw effect, Brainstorm is not.
Playing 2 lands to hard cast Ancient Grudge sets the deck back 3 turns on dredging, compared to EOT discard Ancient Grudge and playing 4xUndiscovered Paradise MD that's probably a game loss regardless.
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.
Looking at the list you've provided, what does one lose by swapping out the Gemstone Mines/City of Brass for some Coliseums?
@4eak: I got your point, but what I was trying to say, is that Phantasmagorian-list is more inclined to DDD, while the 8 dorks list can be a little faster, and still DDD. Maybe we should wait a little to determinate if this speed will actually be relevant against Combo. In my opinion, PImp+Tribe combination is great against GY hate and possibly better than Gorian against combo, while worse against permission.
@Gui: I don't know if Firestorm is better than PImp, since Firestorm is awful against combo and GY hate, although excellent against permission and aggro. Plus, there's the Ichorid-feeding question.
Firestorm is decent against combo, it can deal some unexpected damage to finish an AdN. And against combo, you will most likely want to hit as many dredgers you got in hand and then -> draw spell. Firestorm is just a little worse in this case, since you'd want to re-use GGT whenever possible. But since you have 'Gorian and 13 dredgers, you are more likely to keep dredging.
Against GY hate it's worse since the dorks are recurring, but the worst graveyard hate scenario is when they have a clock and prevent you from hitting draw spells to accelerate, in other words, permission. Firestorm got advantages and disadvantages here.
But I get what you mean, I just wanted to state that maybe it's at least worth a test. It's just that Firestorm is great whenever it opens burning a creature or denying a counterspell.
EDIT: To the Ichorid feeding question, 'Gorian replaces PImp in that role for the exact same amount of black creatures as the default dork list
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
I agree that LED looks less attractive post-ban. But I have some concerns about Combo coming back, and that speed loss that I'll address later.
First, don't run Firestorm main. While post-ban it becomes even more amazing, you want to cast a PImp/Tribe if possible to facilitate comboing off Game One. You need the extra dork to help with your speed, especially without LED against any faster deck.
Coliseum can't be cut.
Brainstorm is never going to be good. The problem with it is first, it loses all of it's ability to fix an opening hand in this deck. Second, it cannot be used for discard. And third, and most important, it doesn't actually Dredge three times. You have to return three dredgers to the top of your library, which cuts your next turn's draw down to nothing.
@4eak: I like your list, and am in agreement on most things. I do, however worry about it post-board. With more Aggro and Tribal coming back post-ban, you are going to see more Crypts, and far more Relics post-board. In comparison to the Extirpates and Extractions we've been seeing, this makes Phantasm a liability, especially in comparison to Tribe. Which combined with PImp can wholly ignore Crypt/Relic. At least against decks that have a hard time removing them.
Regardless, what I would seriously consider in your "flex slots" post-ban, is a set of Gitaxian Probe. It's never existed without MM, and I think it solves a lot of problems. In your case, you can chose to draw, and still make decisions after seeing their hand. It makes any in-hand Therapy insane, since you can see their hand, draw, then cast Therapy. Or, you can see their hand, cast PImp, discard your hand, and Flashback Therapy if needs be. This should help both speed, and disruption-wise against Combo. It always makes your first Therapy hit their scarce resource. Post-board, assuming your opponent forces you to play first, you can see what hate they have before choosing a line of play. If they have Daze, you do lose the ability to DDD and play it, but if you have a PImp/Tribe in hand (easy if you run 8), then it's irrelivant. And it's obviously a free Dredge in all cases.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
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