[Budget Decks] -- My Attempts

[GenioDeArena]

@ GenioDeArena

I have bad news for you: that deck simply isn't good enough, and (as far as I can tell) it can't be made competitive. This doesn't even look like the appropriate role against the decks you listed. This list will either evolve into Ponza (and then die out) or Death and Taxes (and eventually lose the anti-search). Sorry man, thems the breaks.

If you are on a tight budget, I highly suggest Mono Red Sligh. That is a very cheap deck, and it is far more competitive than most people realize. You could transition into UR Delver and actually have what I believe is a tier one deck for just a bit more.

Well, that suck. I´ve watched UR lists and I came with something like this:


4Delver of Secrets
4Spellstutter Sprite
3Pestermite

4Lightning Bolt
4Incinerate
2price of Progress
3Earthquake

2Spell Pierce
4Daze
2Rushing River

4Brainstorm
2Ponder

8Fetches
10Island
6Mountain


Is this a good starting point? Keep in mind that I own all cards sans the fetches and one Spell Pierce.

[lyracian]

Well, that suck. I´ve watched UR lists and I came with something like this:


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Pestermite


Is this a good starting point? Keep in mind that I own all cards sans the fetches and one Spell Pierce.

Putting an underscore means the card tags do not work.
If you want all Flyers and Earthquake I would go with Serendib Efreet over Pestermite
Add more bolt effects like Magma Jet
How tight is your budget? Last years Fire & Lightning deck has some good cards to help build this up.
I would drop the land count down to twenty as well.

Hehe, those pump spells aren't worthy.
After enough requests, Pox has been added to the opening post. It is not the deck I would suggest for pure Spikes, but winning on your own terms while remaining fairly competitive is still a sub-game of Magic.

Glad to see Pox make your list but why no Racks? (other than anti-sinergy with Culling Scales)
3 Nether Spirits seems a bit much since as soon as the second one hits the bin they become worthless? No love for Mishra's Factories?

[GenioDeArena]

If you want all Flyers and Earthquake I would go with Serendib Efreet over Pestermite
Add more bolt effects like Magma Jet
How tight is your budget? Last years Fire & Lightning deck has some good cards to help build this up.
I would drop the land count down to twenty as well.

What´s more important? Burn suite or fetches?
I mean I only have a limited amount of money to throw into the deck for now. As far as Serendib, I really like that card but the problem is that I live in Argentina and getting cards older than Fifth Ed. isn´t easy. Plus card prices are just higher in general due to customs, smaller player base, greedy-ass dealers, etc.

Ussualy I get bored at playing Sligh after a while, thats why I tryed a build more focused on tempo than straight burn. Yeas, in needs better creatures. Perhaps Frenetic Efreet?


A.

[lyracian]

I mean I only have a limited amount of money to throw into the deck for now. As far as Serendib, I really like that card but the problem is that I live in Argentina and getting cards older than Fifth Ed. isn´t easy. Plus card prices are just higher in general due to customs, smaller player base, greedy-ass dealers, etc.

I do not know what Argentinan import tax is like but I can import £15 of stuff into the UK without paying tax so I often make lots of little purchases (1-2 Fetchlands and some cheap commons). Alternatively use shops/individuals that will send without customs labels. Message me if you want to know where I shop.

What´s more important? Burn suite or fetches?
Ussualy I get bored at playing Sligh after a while, thats why I tryed a build more focused on tempo than straight burn. Yeas, in needs better creatures. Perhaps Frenetic Efreet?

You need a good manabase for MTG and if you get board of decks easily Lands are more transferable than spells that will only be used in one deck. 50% chance to dodge removal is cute but I still do not see it being worthwhile. I would rather use something like chandra's phoenix which I know will come back.

[Grigory]

@4eak: Though the decks opening hands are frequently nightmarish, it can stall with tall men while it attempts to put something together. This makes it slightly more consistent than it appears :p. Belcher is probably a superior choice to "0 \/ 60 storm".

On a side note, SI is gorgeous.

[4eak]

Added Spiral Tide to the list. It is not a deck that is good in any just any generic metagame, but there is a time and a place for it.

@ GenioDeArena

I strongly suggest something like my list.

Pestermite is just completely awful. Earthquake is the wrong role for the deck. I'd also rather have more burn instead of Spell Pierce, Spellstutter Sprite, and Rushing River. 24 Lands is also terrible - the deck can easily run off 18 land.

A burn heavy build might go something like this:

// Land - 18
1 Mountain
1 Island
4 Steam Vents
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest

// Creatures - 11
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer

// Card Quality - 7
3 Magma Jet
4 Brainstorm

// Usual suspects - 24
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress

This deck could also run 4 Ponder in place of any of the burn spells. Notice that with Fireblast, you have to run the full 4 Steam Vents. I prefer the aggro control build, but straight UR Sligh with no maindeck permission is still dangerous.

If this is still too rich for your taste, then tell me your current cards available and your budget. I'll build to that.


@ lyracian

There is quite a bit of wiggle room in the Pox build.

I love The Rack. If you don't mind its conflict with Culling Scales, then by all means, go for it. If you chose to remove Culling Scales, I'd play The Rack. The Rack gets better with Loam + Raven's Crime.

Nether Spirits can easily go down to 1 or 2. I tend to want one in every game, and I find there are ways many ways to avoid having 2 in the GY.

Factory doesn't belong in the deck until you have Crucible or Loam.



peace,
4eak

[GenioDeArena]

@4reak: Ive been reading the UR Delver thread And I´ve found a list of your that looks very similar to what you posted here, but adds Daze and Spell Snare instead of Fireblast and Lava Spike. I think I´ll go in that direction. Cause I enjoy playing aggro-control much more than Sligh.
I can build preety much that list with some temporal substitutions, The irst cards i´ll get are the fetches.

[lyracian]

@ lyracianThere is quite a bit of wiggle room in the Pox build.
I love The Rack. If you don't mind its conflict with Culling Scales, then by all means, go for it. If you chose to remove Culling Scales, I'd play The Rack. The Rack gets better with Loam + Raven's Crime.
Nether Spirits can easily go down to 1 or 2. I tend to want one in every game, and I find there are ways many ways to avoid having 2 in the GY.
Factory doesn't belong in the deck until you have Crucible or Loam.

I have never used Culling Scales since I do use the rack; I just wondered if you thought it had some benefit? I also run my deck with Loam but given the success of Reid Duke and others with a Pox deck without land recursion it may be worth having another look at Factories?

You are probably a better player than I since with only two Spirits I can struggle to keep them out of the yard once I have drawn the second. Have you though of using an Entomb instead so you can tutor up a Spirit or Raven's Crime as needed?

[4eak]

Added TES.

I've held off on adding it since I started this thread. I consider the deck budget, albeit on the very expensive side of budget. It is a very good deck though - the sort of deck which you could play for the rest of your competitive Legacy career (barring some insane anti-combo card being printed, and nothing yet has been printed and stayed unbanned [Mental Misstep] which made the deck largely unplayable, so I think it is a safe bet). As to long-term investment, both in terms of money and in terms of time spent mastering a deck, this has to be one of the best choices (perhaps the best).

Looking back through these decklists and rechecking prices, I see that a number of these decks have grown very expensive, much more expensive than when I had originally posted them - outpacing even the usual inflation we find in this game. This reflects well on my budget building (I think), but unfortunately, it also means that some of the decks are now out of 'budget' range to me, particularly with respect to efficiency (cost/benefit).


peace,
4eak

[lyracian]

Looking back through these decklists and rechecking prices, I see that a number of these decks have grown very expensive, much more expensive than when I had originally posted them - outpacing even the usual inflation we find in this game. This reflects well on my budget building (I think), but unfortunately, it also means that some of the decks are now out of 'budget' range to me, particularly with respect to efficiency (cost/benefit).

You also talk about Ratchet Bomb being an expensive card, so some have gone down.
It is the problem with the game that secondary prices fluctuate and the cards people want sky rocket in price or dive bomb once they rotate out of standard. Was there any particular cards that you think are making your decks non-budget now?

Using your deck as a base I have just spent $5 to buy the Infect Krew to swap my Stompy deck over as I think they are better than Kavu Predator and friends. I kept my Berserks in the deck just because I own them.

[4eak]

You also talk about Ratchet Bomb being an expensive card, so some have gone down.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. There are two sorts of ways a card is expensive, in my view. 1) The card is outright a lot of money (dropping $20-50 bucks, for example, seems to be asking a lot), and 2) The card is not very efficient - your money doesn't improve your deck very much. Notice that not all cards which are (1) will be (2), and not all cards in (2) will be (1). Fetchlands can be (1) expensive, and yet, they are often very efficient - you really get a lot out of them for your money. At the time, Ratchet bomb was too costly for what you get - it is still a pricey card for what you get. Notice, I'm accusing ratchet bomb of (2), not (1). Unfortunately, Ratchet bomb is a necessary evil for some decks; mono black, for example, has no other options in many cases - Ratchet bomb is not a good card in these instances, but it is all mono black has available in the card pool.

Was there any particular cards that you think are making your decks non-budget now?

I didn't compare individual card prices, only the aggregate deck prices. I'm not quite sure which cards in particular are more expensive. An example card would be Dark Confidant. Shockland Duals are also higher, but that is due to modern speculation.

Using your deck as a base I have just spent $5 to buy the Infect Krew to swap my Stompy deck over as I think they are better than Kavu Predator and friends. I kept my Berserks in the deck just because I own them.

It is interesting that you are playing the Berserks. I actually took them out in my final build because I didn't think they were really that amazing - they were too conditional and forced overextension. If you leave them in, I think you should move toward a more combo-oriented set of pump spells. I'd play fewer creatures as well.


peace,
4eak

[Mr. Safety]

// Land - 18
1 Mountain
1 Island
4 Steam Vents
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest

// Creatures - 11
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer

// Card Quality - 7
3 Magma Jet
4 Brainstorm

// Usual suspects - 24
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress

This deck could also run 4 Ponder in place of any of the burn spells. Notice that with Fireblast, you have to run the full 4 Steam Vents. I prefer the aggro control build, but straight UR Sligh with no maindeck permission is still dangerous.

If you were to add some maindeck permission (lets say 4 slots to protecting your threats) what would you add? I feel that Force is out of range (both price-wise and the lack of blue fodder) so what would you do? I'm considering building this deck, and I wouldn't want to play a full 4 Fireblast...I'd probably play 2. I also wouldn't play 4 Lava Spikes, just because I feel that the burn should double as removal in as many options as possible so you can get your threats through in combat (Delver, Guide). That leaves me with 6 flex spots.

I was thinking of doing this:
2x Ponder
4x Spell Snare

How do you feel about that?

[wert]

I had been looking through your decks, I like your deck-building style, which is as simple as possible without unnecessary fuss. Sometimes, I just love to put in some unnecessary parts, I have learned some restrain through the years, but still.....

I had tried to build on your stompy infect deck, in truth you have got most of the base down already.

I have only go through a few of your decks, starting from my faves. I noticed that the mono red Goblins deck is in fact Vial Goblins.

Mono Red Goblins

// Lands - 21
21 Mountain

// 1st Turn Tempo Bombs - 8
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey

// Additional Tempo Cards - 8
2 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Chieftain

// Card Quality & Quantity - 8
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron

// Utility-Removal - 9
2 Stingscourger
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Siege-Gang Commander

// Board Presence - 6
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshal

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Pyrostatic Pillar (*Mindbreak Trap is only slightly more expensive, but perhaps better in this slot)
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 3 Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 1 Vexing Shusher

For some unexplained reasons, I love Goblin decks.
It can be fast, quick and dirty like stompy but unlike stompy it survived well in late game. There is always a plan B and in most builds it get stronger as the turns goes by. Goblin decks are also very flexible, the focus can be completely turned merely by side boarding the various goblins.

I suppose you would get the bombs out using Warren Instigator, but I would questioned its inclusion. You choose not have the full set probably because you also have Mogg War Marshal at 2-drop. Maybe it would be better to have just one or the other.

With your deck is filled up the gills Gempalm Incinerator, it makes more sense to go with a full set Mogg War Marshal. Personally, I wouldn't run a full set of Gempalm Incinerator anyway. 2 or at most 3 is enough for most cases. Stingscourger is an effective backup and we can always stick the extras Gempalm Incinerator in the sideboard just in case we have a creature intensive matchup. I just don't think a full set belongs to the main deck.

I would also like to have a artifice-destroying goblin in the main deck with 1-2 more in the sideboard. I would take Tuktuk Scrapper over Goblin Tinkerer due to speed and the cost should be already offset by Goblin Warchief. I should think we would always would have an artifice to destroy these days.

A single Goblin Pyromancer should be also real useful to this deck too. What about Goblin War Strike? I think it is plenty useful as another win condition.

Not sure why you packed so many Pyrokinesis in the sideboard, the deck seems plenty strong as it is against creatures. I would substitute with Blood Moon and Red Elemental Blast instead.

In the risk of looking silly, if you would to include Wasteland and Rishadan Port how would they be used? How many of them would you add and what would you cut?

Personally, I like to splash black for Vial Goblins but mono-red works very well too.

[4eak]

Updated Mono Red Goblins


@Mr. Safety

If you were to add some maindeck permission (lets say 4 slots to protecting your threats) what would you add?

The list of mine which you quote is not the one I recommend - it is not the same as the list in the OP. I think the heavy burn build is not the best build, but some people really prefer the combo nature of sligh (so I offered a list). I strongly prefer aggro-control to aggro-combo UR-Delver. Check the first post for a UR Delver build with permission. That said, I'm still having questions about the post in the OP.

My current build is different (because I've not been pleased with PoP, which is in the OP):

// Lands - 18
1 Island
3 Mountain
2 Steam Vents
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa

// Creatures - 12
4 Goblin Guide
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Grim Lavamancer

// Burn - 12
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt

// Permission - 8
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare

// Cantrips - 10
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Gitaxian Probe

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Price of Progress
SB: 4 Spell Pierce
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 2 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt

This is burn-light. I've really tried to have as much burn as possible. But, everything I've tried beyond those 12 burn spells have been 'meh'. I've tried nearly everything, and I've not really liked anything. Probe is filler, clearly.

I feel that Force is out of range (both price-wise and the lack of blue fodder) so what would you do?

Even with Force available, I wouldn't use it in the main. Force has no place in a sligh variant - this archetype can't afford the card disadvantage. Imagine a red FoW, would you play it in Sligh's main? The answer should be no. That said, you can play it in the side - against combo decks, you want Force.

I'm considering building this deck, and I wouldn't want to play a full 4 Fireblast...I'd probably play 2. I also wouldn't play 4 Lava Spikes, just because I feel that the burn should double as removal in as many options as possible so you can get your threats through in combat (Delver, Guide). That leaves me with 6 flex spots.

We probably agree on the direction we should build this deck. I favor the ability to interact as well.

I think the deck needs to specialize either as a raw UR Sligh variant (with only the minimal and most productive interaction with creatures) or as an aggro-control deck which runs at least 6 pieces of permission and burn which can always interact with creatures (finishers, like PoP and Fireblast are bad because they really are almost never used used to interact with creatures).


@ wert

Thank you for reminding me to update Goblins.

There are two routes for Mono Red Goblins. Both routes keep 50ish of the same standard cards, but the last set of goblins really defines the role/route. You can go for a type of explosive goblin sligh, where Instigator is actually worthwhile. You can also go for standard creature-control based goblins. Increasingly, I have little sympathy for the sligh build (there are simply better decks that play the same role), and I think Goblins is only worthwhile when cards like Mogg fanatic, Incinerator, and Pyrokinesis are great cards in the metagame. The list I posted was schizophrenic. I tried to maintain some sligh components (commonly used in Mono Red Goblins), and I shouldn't've. When Goblins isn't able to perform as a creature-control deck, it isn't a good deck in the metagame.

Here is my non-budget build:

// Lands - 23
5 Mountain
2 Taiga
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

// Standard - 26
4 Goblin Lackey
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Siege-Gang Commander

// Non-Standard - 11
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 1 Tuktuk Scrapper
SB: 4 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Graffdigger's Cage
SB: 4 Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 Goblin Sharpshooter

If SFM/Jitte/Batterskull did not see as much play as it does, I would be fine with adding the black splash as well (the green splash should always be there, I think, as TSH and Grip are simply the best at what they do, and they are necessary).

In metagames where Goblins belongs (where it is actually worthwhile to build and play goblins), Mogg Fanatic, Incinerator, Incinerator are going to be worthwhile. You can improve the deck to play more effectively in metagames where it doesn't belong by replacing creature control, but it doesn't matter, because you shouldn't be playing Goblins in those metagames.

When Goblin lost its tier 1 status because of the printing of excellent standalone creatures (Goyf and SFM especially) and when M10 rules eliminated combat-on-the-stack tricks, particularly Mogg Fanatic, we all tried to build goblins differently than the standard. I thought this was the way to go. The old 57 card standard list wasn't working, so why not try to evolve it? I've come to the conclusion that Goblins really can't evolve very much - it is now (more than ever) a metagame dependent deck, and only when the metagame matches Goblins' strong-suite should we elect to play Goblins.


peace,
4eak

[lyracian]

Not sure why you packed so many Pyrokinesis in the sideboard, the deck seems plenty strong as it is against creatures. I would substitute with Blood Moon and Red Elemental Blast instead.

Pyrokinesis is good for killing things like Elves or swarms of Tokens where you want to spread the damage around. Cards like Goblin War Strike are bad because they are not Goblins so you can not draw them off Ringleader.

In the risk of looking silly, if you would to include Wasteland and Rishadan Port how would they be used? How many of them would you add and what would you cut?

If you have got them put all eight in. Ports are used for man denial to shut off your opponent from one colour during there upkeep.

Personally, I like to splash black for Vial Goblins but mono-red works very well too.

Having recently tried it out it is my preference too. Main deckWarren Weirding and then Leyline of the Void in the side are great.

[Mr. Safety]

@Mr. Safety

The list of mine which you quote is not the one I recommend - it is not the same as the list in the OP. I think the heavy burn build is not the best build, but some people really prefer the combo nature of sligh (so I offered a list). I strongly prefer aggro-control to aggro-combo UR-Delver. Check the first post for a UR Delver build with permission. That said, I'm still having questions about the post in the OP.

My current build is different (because I've not been pleased with PoP, which is in the OP):

// Lands - 18
1 Island
3 Mountain
2 Steam Vents
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa

// Creatures - 12
4 Goblin Guide
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Grim Lavamancer

// Burn - 12
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt

// Permission - 8
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare

// Cantrips - 10
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Gitaxian Probe

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Price of Progress
SB: 4 Spell Pierce
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 2 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt

This is burn-light. I've really tried to have as much burn as possible. But, everything I've tried beyond those 12 burn spells have been 'meh'. I've tried nearly everything, and I've not really liked anything. Probe is filler, clearly.


Even with Force available, I wouldn't use it in the main. Force has no place in a sligh variant - this archetype can't afford the card disadvantage. Imagine a red FoW, would you play it in Sligh's main? The answer should be no. That said, you can play it in the side - against combo decks, you want Force.



We probably agree on the direction we should build this deck. I favor the ability to interact as well.

I think the deck needs to specialize either as a raw UR Sligh variant (with only the minimal and most productive interaction with creatures) or as an aggro-control deck which runs at least 6 pieces of permission and burn which can always interact with creatures (finishers, like PoP and Fireblast are bad because they really are almost never used used to interact with creatures).

peace,
4eak

I agree with you...the burn needs to have utility. I think riding a Goblin Guide/Delver on the back of light permission and removal is a strong strategy. The real question becomes: is 8 attacking threats enough (I'm not counting Grims)?

I am thinking of this as a starting point:

Land = 19
4x Arid Mesa
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Misty Rainforest
2x Steam Vents
4x Mountain
3x Island

Creatures = 15
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Goblin Guide
3x Grim Lavamancer
4x Keldon Marauders

Sorceries = 10
4x Rift Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
2x Ponder

Instants = 16
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Brainstorm
2x Fire/Ice
3x Spell Snare
3x Daze

[Wereodile]

This is burn-light. I've really tried to have as much burn as possible. But, everything I've tried beyond those 12 burn spells have been 'meh'. I've tried nearly everything, and I've not really liked anything. Probe is filler, clearly.

Were you not feeling Magma Jet? It helps bump both the burn and car quality.

Now you mentioned not liking Fow in the Delver build due to the card disadvantage how do you feel about Daze? It isn't card disadvantage but instead a tempo loss do you feel they both have a negative effect on the deck?

I have three FoW listed in my build alongside 3 Spell Snares should I think about replacing the FoW with Spell Pierce or Mana Leak? Also does Mana Leak even belong in Legacy?

[wert]

It seems you are packing alot of artifice-hate. While it might not be a bad thing but I think Goblins do have decent ways to handle the various artifices you mentioned. We can simply block with a goblin and then sacrifice it to SGC or more reliably to Skirk Prospector which can be in turned be used for the ports or even lightning bolts.

Why do you still use Mogg Fanatic? and what is the idea behind having 4 Gempalm Incinerator? It doesn't really make sense to me to splash green just for Krosan Grip. Red has plenty of ways to deal with artifices so I have to assume it's enchantments that you are so worried about?

[edit] I also noticed that you have totally cut Goblin Chieftain......why so?

[Mr. Safety]

Were you not feeling Magma Jet? It helps bump both the burn and car quality.

Now you mentioned not liking Fow in the Delver build due to the card disadvantage how do you feel about Daze? It isn't card disadvantage but instead a tempo loss do you feel they both have a negative effect on the deck?

I have three FoW listed in my build alongside 3 Spell Snares should I think about replacing the FoW with Spell Pierce or Mana Leak? Also does Mana Leak even belong in Legacy?

I'm not 4eak, but my opinion is that Fire/Ice is a better option if Maverick is in your metagame. It can ding off Dryad Arbor AND Noble Hierarch with one card, and in rare cases tap down Knight of the Reliquary to buy you a turn. At worst it is a one-shot of mana-denial with a cantrip, at best it's a 2-for-1 against anything using 1-toughness dudes (Bob, Snapcaster, Grims, mana dorks, elves, unflipped Delvers.) Daze is far and above better than Mana Leak I feel. It can protect your turn 1 Delver/Guide on the play. The deck can run on 2 lands and even go for a while on 1 land...Daze is a free option that allows you to play disruption while still putting on pressure with 1-mana threats and burn spells. It stalls your tempo slightly, but only by preventing you from getting to 2 lands as fast as you normally would. I think it's worth it considering the mana-efficiency of all of your other spells. Spell Pierce would be my second choice, and Mana Leak a distant third. I'm not sure it belongs in legacy considering how effective Spell Snare and Spell Pierce are at one mana.

[Wereodile]

I'm not 4eak, but my opinion is that Fire/Ice is a better option if Maverick is in your metagame. It can ding off Dryad Arbor AND Noble Hierarch with one card, and in rare cases tap down Knight of the Reliquary to buy you a turn. At worst it is a one-shot of mana-denial with a cantrip, at best it's a 2-for-1 against anything using 1-toughness dudes (Bob, Snapcaster, Grims, mana dorks, elves, unflipped Delvers.) Daze is far and above better than Mana Leak I feel. It can protect your turn 1 Delver/Guide on the play. The deck can run on 2 lands and even go for a while on 1 land...Daze is a free option that allows you to play disruption while still putting on pressure with 1-mana threats and burn spells. It stalls your tempo slightly, but only by preventing you from getting to 2 lands as fast as you normally would. I think it's worth it considering the mana-efficiency of all of your other spells. Spell Pierce would be my second choice, and Mana Leak a distant third. I'm not sure it belongs in legacy considering how effective Spell Snare and Spell Pierce are at one mana.

I have always been a fan of Fire/Ice I have two in my build right now, I only fear is a lack of hard counters in the deck without FoW. I know a lot of decks in the current meta are tempo based but decks like Blade Control and Maverick can shrug off Pierce and Daze mid game and then start to overrun the deck. Are there any other hard counters that would be acceptable in this deck?