I chose chain for two reasons, ease of casting and applicability.Originally Posted by K1w1
@Dr.Edge kid
I like your list. I'm actually playing the same main deck except of the nether shadows and -1 Golgari thug.
Instead i play four (4) Street wraiths. I came to the conclusion, to cut breakthrough is the thing we should do. The 8 studies should be enough. I just play the street wraith to have the chance to get them in my opening seven. The advantage with street wraith against breakthrough is, that you have a draw spell, that can be exiled for ichorids in the graveyard.
While i'm looking at your list, this could be nice with nether shadows.
If i play with shadows and +1 thug, i think i will play street wraith in the sideboard against surgical exctraction. ( Instead of playing Breakthrough in the board.
Did you already tested your list? If yes, how do you feel with lesser creatures in the grave to get back the shadows?
Then to the sideboard. How is Chain of Vapor a better choice instead of Nature's Claim?
I was already thinking about it, but i don't know what could be better.
Let's compare this two cards:
Nature's Claim:
+ Nature's claim can destroy your opponents hate directly.
- Costs green mana ( bad with coliseum )
+/- Your opponent gets 4 life ( This can be bad in some situation, but shouldn't be a big problem)
Chain of Vapor:
+ Nice against reanimator ( Bounce creatures like Elesh-Norn )
+/- Can also bounce hate, but if you don't have a therapy left, they will play it again ( except of leyline maybe )
- They can sacrifice a land to bounce you DR targets or creatures.
- blue mana ( can be cast with coliseum )
At any rate, i forgot some points! If you want, say me what, i will add it.
There are some advantages and disadvantages with this two cards.
But i think Chain of Vapor is the right answer, IMO. Because you should always have a therapy in your grave.
And the most important thing is, that you can cast it with every land you have.
Please tell me if i'm wrong with my opinion. I am open to any criticism or disagreement.
K1w1
Chain is a catch all and can hit all hate. While it doesn't happen a lot, I don't wanna lose to a random yixlid jailer coming down. Chain is the most versatile piece of hate, and it has pretty much not draw back because for the most part when you are casting it you have no nonland permanents.
As far as using SW over breakthrough in the board, I disagree. The cards are doing two different things. SW is fighting surgical extraction. Breakthrough is there so you can race combo (TES, AnT, Belcher, ect.) The main deck is already designed to be better against extraction by diversifying its threats. The deck needs to speed up to beat combo, so the breakthroughs are necessary in the board.
That's Doctor to you. Dr. Edge.
Not true. The idea of the deck is to turn one or two dredge into several therapies, strip them of their hand, then recur ichorids and shadows and kill them. The shadows allow you to use your therapies a bit more freely than if you didn't have them. Because you run 7 creatures that recur, your therapy is less of a sac outlet and more of a game lock. You can have 3 therapies, one narcomoeba and two bridges and feel 100% okay about using those 3 therapies because, hey, I have 2 Shadows and 3 Ichoirds coming back next turn.
Of course, shadows shine against blue, but they are far from wasted space against non-blue decks.
Anyway, won a win-a-box at GP lincoln with this 75. Round one 2-0'd burn. Round 2-0'd Pox. The shadows were a house in this game. I had to keep a slow dredge hand against him game 2 on a mull to 4. Between the Ichorids and shadows, there was no way he could out grind me. Beat U/W stoneblade in the finals 2-1. Rolled game 1, again shadows were amazing, He sticks leyline game 2 and has force back up, game three I mull to 5 and have land, study, looting, LED and chain on the play. He has turn 0 leyline. I go land bounce your leyline. He has no force backup. I draw an LED off the top, lay both down and dredge half my deck. He concedes to 4 therapies and a 16/16 grave-troll.
Now, obviously I won't be basing the decks strength on winning a win-a-box, but the deck showed a lot of possibility here and I feel like there is definitely some merit in this list. If anyone else runs a similar list let me know how it is working for you and any ideas to refine it!
That's Doctor to you. Dr. Edge.
Hi All,
I played in a local tourney yesterday, going against 106 other players. After some last-minute changes to the sideboard, this is the list that I used help get myself a spot in the Top 8:
LEDless Dredge
Main Deck
//Dredgers
[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
//Graveyard Effects
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Cabal Therapy
//Enablers (Discard/Draw)
[4x] Putrid Imp
[4x] Breakthrough
[4x] Careful Study
[4x] Faithless Looting
//Lands
[4x] Gemstone Mine
[4x] City of Brass
[4x] Tarnished Citadel
[4x] Cephalid Coliseum
Sideboard
[4x] Faerie Macabre
[3x] Firestorm
[2x] Chain of Vapor
[2x] Nature's Claim
[2x] Dread Return
[1x] Iona, Shield of Emeria
[1x] Flame-Kin Zealot
Listed below is summary of what went down, including some notes that I gathered during the tourney:
- I went 5-0-2 during the elimination rounds, going against the following (in order):
- Death and Taxes (Draw; 1-1-1)
- Nic Fit (Win; 2-0-0)
- GW/R Maverick (Win; 2-1-0)
- Reanimator (Win; 2-1-0)
- Goblins (Win; 2-0-0)
- GW/U Maverick (Win; 2-0-0)
- Affinity (Draw; mutual agreement)
- Win-Loss-Draw Total: (11-3-1)
- The following is a list of graveyard hate that I encountered:
- Sadly, I lost (0-2) to Reanimator in the quarterfinals. Game 1 was concluded by a turn 2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, and Game 2 was concluded by a Chain of Vapor into Force of Will. In retrospect, it might have been best to have mulled into Faerie Macabre, as it did wonders versus the Reanimator match-up I had during the elimination round where I lost Game 1 but came back to win games 2 and 3.
- The last minute change to the sideboard was deciding on a 2-2 split between Chain of Vapor and Nature's Claim. Only once did I wish that Chain of Vapor was a Nature's Claim, where the Leyline of the Void that I bounced got re-casted (I eventually settled for a Draw in that round). Generally, having 2x Chain of Vapor as an additional answer to Reanimator gave me a comfy feeling against the match-up (even if the only one I got to cast all day was countered; I would have probably won that game had it resolved, given that I drew into a Faerie Macabre on the following turn).
- I never had the need to side-in Dread Return or any of my DR targets, which was the first time that I didn't run a single DR in the deck for an entire tourney. This was entirely unexpected, and has prompted me to take some more time to think about how I would want to work around playing (or not playing) with DR in my 75-card list.
- Being able to Flashback Faithless Looting (via the non-LED, garden variety means of playing Flashback) did come in handy a few times, though I can only remember that it was absolutely necessary during one instance. Being able to dig through my deck using Careful Study and Faithless Looting, though, was a critical facet of the main deck, given that searching for sideboard cards saved me a game or two.
- Having a plethora of draw spells also helped against countermagic, as I was still able to recover quickly after having 1 or 2 countered.
- Having 16 lands in the main deck also helped increase the deck's resilience against Wasteland, which may have been crucial given that I did encounter the card several times during the elimination rounds.
- I was considering Phantasmagorian over Putrid Imp a few days before the tourney, and I eventually decided to play with what I was more certain of. During the tourney, though, I did pay attention to whether or not I would be in a better situation had my PImps been Phants, and I found that having PImps during those situations did help me more.
- I noticed that there were also other Dredge players during the tournament. Unfortunately, though, I was the lone Dredge representative in the Top 8 (I believe that there were 2 Reanimators, 2 RUG Tempo, among others).
- Cabal Therapy was the MVP of the day, given that I would surely not have reached the Top 8 had I not hit the following blind therapies:
- Scavenging Ooze vs Maverick, on two different rounds
- Tormod's Crypt vs Maverick
- Reanimate vs Reanimator
- Goblin Ringleader vs Goblins
- I find that being able to hit Blind Therapies is one of the most powerful and important facets of playing Dredge, and is probably also one of the least practiced skills. I'm personally guilty of not studying the meta well enough to maximize Cabal Therapy, and that's something that I surely plan to work on moving forward.
Fun Play of the Day:
- Playing Faerie Macabre in response to Exhume, removing all creatures from my opponent's graveyard, then putting Faerie Macabre into play. Swing for 2 on the next turn!
Cheers,
jares
Congrats Jares,
but i'm curious about one point. Your blind therapy agains Scavenging Ooze... sure that this is a strong card vs. dredge, but they use to play just 1 or 2 copies in Maverick.
Usually, if I'm on the play ... I say GSZ. If i'm on the draw and they have already played it for dryad ... Than I dont expect they have another.
Tell us if you had any clue from their behavior that helped in your choice... Also for the blind therapy against tormod's ... or was it game 3 and you were on the play ??
Congratz, Jares! Nice finish.
I like your list, it's something new for me to play the 16th land, but if it worked I guess it's viable. Generally I think 15 are enough, but if you have the room anyway, why not 16. My LEDless list is pretty similar to yours. I just play one less Land and I also split the set of Lootings into some Lootings and Tribes. Should play out pretty much the same though.
And see? Told you guys LEDless isn't out of the race yet. It's still perfectly playable and to be honest, it still has a lot of advantages over LED Dredge. It's just not strictly better any more.
@ Darvus: Yeah, I also usually Therapy for GSZ first, not only because they mostly have to GSZ to find Ooze anyway, but also because they can fetch KotR with it as well. If you hit you kind ofm dealt with the two most potent threats at the same time.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l..._Straight.html
Adam Prosak wrote something about Dredge and his SCG Win...
Seems that he admits, that it was a mistake to run less than 4 Therapies / 4 Ichorids / 12 Dredgers. =P
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16:- (See, now Erratic Explosion's a deck)
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13
Basic observations,
There's no reason to play the 4th Tarnished Citadel over 1xDread Return unless you like losing games to burn or Surgical Extraction, likewise I don't think you're going to get any mileage out of Cephalid Coliseum without LED or Tireless Tribe to set it up for a turn 1 or turn 2 activation. You really don't want to be blind casting Careful Study/Faithless Looting turn 1 into activating Cephalid Coliseum on turn 2, that's a fucking terrible play vs. anything you don't already face roll if that's what you're doing to go off with it consistently.
I'm super tired of explaining why Putrid Imp is trash, but if you're finding it's ability useful beyond Phantasmagorian then you should probably be SBing 4xAncient Grudge instead of stupid shit like Dread Return and FKZ - FKZ has to be the worst possible card you could ever SB in btw. And let me guess, every time you checked to see whether or not Putrid Imp would've been better than Phantasmagorian was when you were holding it in your hand with a land instead of counting the number of times it was sitting as a complete brick in your graveyard compared to Phantasmagorian?
You'll pretty much always want Chain of Vapor over Nature's Claim when 4 of your lands can't actually cast the latter.
I don't think you'll ever need Firestorm as a SB card vs. anything, altho' I like MDing it. You're better off worrying about their hate (I don't really count GSZ/Ooze because it's slow and they have other stuff in the SB anyway, not to mention you can just time walk it with Chain of Vapor regardless) than getting in a cheap WoG.
@ Jares
Congrats on the finish! I like your list, since i'm a defender of LEDless dredge, although I'm with Fortune here, I wouldn't play all 4 citadel...
@ Final Fortune
The only part I agree there is Tarnished. It takes too much life to work. Putrid Imp is absolutely necessary in Konkurs-like dredge, since it usually play instead of draw in first game. Also, the simple fact that it can keep discarding already is good against gravehate g2.
Nature's Claim is preffered over Chains of Vapor in the current gravehate scenario, imho, because Chains only deals with Leyline properly when it's not in black decks, and Chains takes too much effort to work against Cage. The chances that you don't have a land to cast Claim is compensated by the chance that you have a useless chain in your hand against a cage or LL, or even a WoSnM.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
Hey guys,
what are u thinking about Grafdigger's Cage? Why doesn't it see that much play yet? The reason for the fact that decks with Snapcaster Mage play Extraction over it is clear, but what about the other decks?
I'm currently running 1 Life from the Loam in my main deck along with Volrath's Stronghold and Ingot Chewer in my sideboard to combat it effectively, but i think about cutting this package entirely.
In short:
80% of the decks that run U want to play Snapcaster Mage, and because of that they prefer Extraction.
The most G decks run Green Sun's Zenith and Cage stops them by using that. G Decks also have Ooze.
In B Decks Leyline is just better than Cage.
Well... Mono-R Burn can play Cage......the truth is that too many decks are in need of their own Graveyard / Library recursion that they dont want to use Cage.
That Loam into Stronghold into Chewer tech looks even more akward and complicated than simply dredging and casting a Thug, kill it and reccur Mr. Chompers.
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16:
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13
Congratz, Jares and Dredgekid =D
@Jares: You said you didn't use your DR's all day, and still, you have beaten Surgical Extraction... how do you feel about it? I mean, diversifying our threats is something to consider while fighting Extraction.
Also, how do you feel about the 16th land?
I really like Firestorm in the main deck, and I usually play it over Faithless looting, the 16th land has to do with this choice of yours?
C'Mon. Don't think that other people in this thread aren't tired of explaining to you why Putrid Imp is NOT trash. Phnatasmagorian is better in the graveyard and PImp is better in your opening hand (if you have a Land, yes), who would ever doubt that? I don't know what the person you quoted was refering to and if he was biased towards PImp/Phanta or not, but if we just look at hard facts (as far as that is possible), there are advantages for both as well as disadvantages for both.
Phanta builds can't be on the play. That is just a HUGE drawback nowadays. PImps can be hardcast and sometimes that just wins you the game, wheher it be with their attacks or via the additional body you get for flashback spells. PImp is awesome when it comes to playing around hate. Phanta is pretty useless until they crack their Crypt, because you can't overextend. Phanta-DDD builds w/o discard dorks have huge difficulties getting a Dredger in the bin again after they use anti hate, because they just got below 7 cards in hand and can't DDD right away. The advantages of Phanta should be clear.
Awesome argumentation for someone who doesn't even run CC and who thus doesn't have more mana sources to cast Chain than the rest of us has to cast Claim. You seem to be under the misconception that CC is actually a Land for this deck. It's not, the actual Lands in this deck are all gold and you usually have around 10-11. Cephalid Coliseum is an uncounterable CC1 spell that reads: Draw 3 discard 3, activate only with Threshold. And this is just as good as it can get for us. The fact that it can also work as a mana source in a lot of cases is just a bonus. A bonus that shows how completely insane that card is in this deck.
I highly doubt that your DDD list always races Ooze and that you therefore don't need Firestorms in your sideboard. I don't think that each Dredge deck needs Firestorms, but that's mainly due to the fact that most of them can be on the play and race it. Maybe you can tell me how you race a turn 2 Ooze on the draw and with the DDD strategy? I'm curious. Wasting your next turn using Chain of Vapor on it can't be the solution, because they just recast the Ooze next turn and usually get two activations out of it right away (there goes our Time Walk), while you sit there with less than 7 cards in your grip.
Really, I think your approach is viable. I just think it's ridiculous to claim that your unusual build is just so much better than what everyone else plays, even though a build like yours has never placed anywhere while the aweful Putrid Imp builds somehow win tournaments, even if built imperfectly. People should be a bit more open-minded towards different ways of building decks.
It's a mistake fron the begining of time....
Hey guys,
I'm finally putting this deck together (I've played like 15 other decks in sanctioned Legacy tournaments). I've been out of the metagame loop for a couple months regarding GY hate. How many people are actually running Cage or Leyline? Do we have any kind of concrete information on this? The numbers seem low to me, but I just want to know if there are certain archtypes with Leylines and Cages in the board as the 'standard' SB. Like should I always bank on Burn playing Cage? Does Reanimator usually play Leyline? Thanks in advance.
I think LED Dredge with a couple Lotus Petals and Looting package is really, really powerful. It just never loses game 1, and it's definitely the best build to beat combo. I have no problem with boarding out Breakthroughs and LED's for Firestorms and more Ichorid/Dread Return. I would be interested in hearing why people aren't wanting to max out their game 1 percentage. Whether or not you play LED, post-SB games are pretty similar for every build (unless you want to race Storm).
EDIT: It looks like most Reanimator decks aren't running GY hate at all right now. Maybe 1 or 2 Coffin Purges or Surgicals on occasion.
It's interesting to me that Adam Prosak also references Richard Feldman's article (The Art of Dredge Fu) as one that has helped enlighten him in his Dredge deck-building (even if he got to read it after he already won
I know that there's still so much to learn (and that it will always be that way), and that makes it much more important for me to have a starting point like the "dredging philosophy" (for lack of a better term) that I learned in the said article.
Kind Regards,
jares
It's even more tiring to read through gibberish that isn't based on sound arguments nor solid tournament results, Final Fortune. So please, if you really believe that you're correct and everyone else that's getting favorable results in their testing AND in their actual tournament experience is wrong, then show us that we're wrong by WINNING already. Otherwise, you can just wait until someone else does the winning/proving for you.
For the record, I haven't seen a single Phantasmagorian in any of the Dredge lists that have placed well after Mental Misstep was banned. I might not be as updated as I would like to be, and I would be happy to be proven wrong, as that will help add to what I can learn from SOUND ARGUMENTS and SOLID RESULTS.
Good Luck,
jares
For your reference, Final Fortune:
- Discarding > PImp: one at a time; Phant: three at a time. Edge: PImp.
- Ichorid Fodder > Edge: Draw (PImp might actually have the slight edge, as it's much easier to decide to exile a PImp rather than a Phant. Seems negligible though).
- Warm Body for DR/Therapy Fodder > PImp is a 1-CMC creature; Phant will require a DR to get into play. Edge: PImp.
- As a DR Target > PImp: 2/2 Flying; Phant: 6/6. Edge: Phant.
- Dependencies > PImp: Land; Phant: discard phase (having 8 cards) or dredging it into the graveyard. Edge: Draw (both dependencies have advantages/disadvantages).
- Weakness > PImp: Counterspells, Wasteland; Phant: Discard Effects. Edge: Phant (because counterspells are much more common).
- Ability to deviate from the primary line of play > PImp: can always opt to DDD; Phant: will always have to DDD, unless a dependency on another discard outlet is established. Edge: PImp.
- Ability to choose to be "on-the-draw" or "on-the-play" > PImp: can choose either; Phant: will have to choose to be on the draw (not being on the draw essentially grants a timewalk for the opponent; note that your opponent will have control over these choices 50% of the time). Edge: PImp.
- Option to Mulligan > PImp: Allows mulliganning whenever necessary; Phant: every mulligan essentially counts as a timewalk. Edge: PImp.
- Note that it has been suggested (by Final Fortune) that the presence of Phant in the deck may increase the "keepability" (for lack of a better word) of certain opening hands.
The comparisons above are based on the points that you've raised, and a few that I've previously noted. In summary, we have 2 draws, 2 in favor of Phant, and 5 in favor of PImp. I believe that these comparisons also need to be weighted, though, so this is, by no means, a reflection of whether or not PImp or Phant is better or worse - it just shows that PImp has the upper hand based on the number of considerations presented. Do let us know if there are any other considerations that may have been missed.
Also, let's please try to stop making excuses for these OBVIOUS considerations by saying that the comparisons between these two cards aren't as linear as presented - unless of course you're able to present the non-linear considerations for these comparisons. In other words, if you've got a point, just prove it already rather than continue to whine about tournament/testing results that are perennially disagreeing with you. For all we know, you might be right, and you owe it to yourself to back those ideas up with SOUND ARGUMENTS and SOLID RESULTS.
Good Luck,
jares
I agree with you on this, as this is also one of my major considerations when choosing between the two. You'll notice, though, that I run more Gold Lands than the usual, so the [2x] Nature's Claim is less likely to cause problems because of this distinction of my build. I'm still unsure if the 2-2 split is the best way to go, though, but if I were to choose between the two, I'd choose Chain of Vapor because of its versatility and consistency (for being blue).
Kind Regards,
jares
This was how the scenario of the "Blind Therapy for Scavenging Ooze" happened:
- My opponent played GSZ into Dryad Arbor during his first turn.
- During my second turn (I was on the play), I dredged into a lot of cards, and had enough "resources" to play Cabal Therapy.
- I was considering the following after my Cabal Therapy resolved:
- There's a small chance that my opponent has another GSZ in his hand (+1 Ooze).
- Given that there's usually just 1 Scavenging Ooze in the deck, there's still a greater probability that he has another GSZ than a Scavenging Ooze (+1 GSZ).
- If he didn't have a land to play on his next turn, he could still cast the Ooze, but won't be able to cast GSZ into the Ooze on his next turn (+1 Ooze).
- If he did have a land, he would be able to cast the Ooze and still have one mana open to disrupt my development. If he were to cast a GSZ, that open mana won't be there, and I would already have enough board presence to grind-out a win (+1 Ooze).
- In summary, even if there was a greater probability that my opponent had a GSZ rather than an Ooze, the current game state showed me that I would gain more by ensuring that he didn't have an Ooze (GSZ=1, Ooze=3). Surprisingly, I hit 2x Ooze in his hand
This was how the scenario for the "Blind Therapy for Tormod's Crypt happened:
- Game 2 was dominated by Wheel of Sun and Moon coming in during the second turn.
- I was able to prolong game 2 long enough to prompt my opponent to drop a Tormod's Crypt even while Wheel of Sun and Moon was still in play. At that point, the game was already in his control, and he was simply "making sure" that he would be able to answer any tricks that I might have up my sleeve. From my point of view, I was simply taking in as much info as I can get regarding how he used his sideboard to address the match-up.
- As expected, I lost game 2, and we both mulled to 6 before game 3 started. I was on the play, and my opening hand contained a PImp, a Faithless Looting, and Cabal Therapy. I was about to cast PImp, but then realized that I would probably be better-off sniping for some hate given that my opponent mulled once to probably get some, so I went on to cast Cabal Therapy.
- After Cabal Therapy resolved, these were my thoughts:
- If my opponent had a Wheel of Sun and Moon, I would still have the next turn to Flashback the Cabal Therapy after playing my PImp.
- If my opponent had a Tormod's Crypt, I would no longer be able to address that card during my next turn.
- The choice was pretty obvious.
- After the game, I realized that I would not have made the right choice had I not continued to play game 2 even if I was likely to lose that game anyway.
I hope that helps.
Kind Regards,
jares
FinalFortune, please lose the attitude and the cursing. I keep the forum clean when I express my opinions and I do not talk down to people I disagree with, please act in kind.
Your arguments are not exactly valid. You are saying people need to take out PImp for Phant, but you want them to play tribe to get full mileage out of coliseum. Let me ask you this, in what way is tribe remotely better than pimp? Pimp can fly, hit for 2 (both of which are relevant), and most importantly is black and therefore Ichorid fodder.
There is nothing wrong with casting study/looting for your discard. I do have to ask, if that is a terrible play, why do you advocate firestorm in the main? You realize that unless they have a turn 1 creature, you will be storming for 2 and discarding the exact same amount as a study or looting? Why would I dilute my decks draw power to fit in a discard outlet that discards the exact same amount.
As far as PImp vs. Phant, while no one has been able to definitively say which is better, I feel like the burden of proof is in Phant for coming up with numbers because PImp is tried and true and was here first. I feel like each has its merit, but to say Phant is 100% better without providing numbers is obviously going to be met with skepticism and with your attitude, distaste.
That's Doctor to you. Dr. Edge.
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