manabase:
+ more fetchlands to protect yourself from waste
+ It makes brainstorm better
- no 5c to get BRU(g) divided into T1/T2
- Stifle gets more relevant? (probe intel really shines)
?? fetchlands doesn't protect you. Only basics or more than 4 non-basic landsOriginally Posted by Waikiki
Ya I dont get this, obviously cantrips get better but 9 fetch/4 duals against RUG delvers4 stifle/4 wasteland is just ugly. All im saying is TES is pretty well optimized for what it wants to accomplish and so is ANT. Ive tried the mashup of both (against many peoples advice) and found out why its not recommended and thus why the two archtypes exist seperately.manabase:
+ more fetchlands to protect yourself from waste
+ It makes brainstorm better
- no 5c to get BRU(g) divided into T1/T2
- Stifle gets more relevant? (probe intel really shines)
alot of lists dont pack stifle. Wasteland isnt going to do much against a fetchland that is on the board.
Im not saying its better or worse but u cant deny a fetchland is better against wasteland then having a 5c land / dual in play.
This is true, up until the fetch is cracked anyway, except that with only 4 duals total the options become pretty limited against tempo.dec as opposed to the 8 mana producing lands of TES or the basics of ANT.Waikiki
alot of lists dont pack stifle. Wasteland isnt going to do much against a fetchland that is on the board.
Im not saying its better or worse but u cant deny a fetchland is better against wasteland then having a 5c land / dual in play.
Fair enough on stifle although likely an equal number of decks do still play stifle, which I consider to be the better choice.
Anyway I know this, I enjoyed TES and I enjoy ANT but the hybrids just didnt do what I hoped/expected. My fault? perhaps.
9 Fetch 4 Duals is realistically almost never going to be a problem. However, Gemstone Mines are almost never a problem either. It's probably impossible to draw any conclusions here.
Please explain to me why I need a dead card in my mainboard when I can practically always win the game with either an EtW or a Burning wish. The only ways I win games are:
- Casting EtW
- Casting AdN
- Hands with BW IT LED that win through IGG
For all these wins I don't need a mainboard ToA.
I almost never use the Returns because it's absolutely terrible. I wish there was something else I could run here. In fact, I wish I wouldn't have to play Burning Wish.
Concerning the Therapy/Probe package, I'm running 4 Probe no matter what, and I belive everyone should. I think 3 Therapy is completely fine with 4 Probe 4 Duress.
I think I disagree with basically everything you say here.
- I don't particularly care about Chalice decks. If they exist, I can cut something for a Pulverize or spree.
- I'm not running Thoughtseize specifically because it costs 2 life. With 4 Probes in the deck, that becomes a real issue.
- Replacing EtW with Burning Wish is the last thing I would do. Burning Wish is, together with Chrome Mox, the worst card in the deck.
- I disagree with running both IGG and PiF
- 3 EtW sideboard is the reason I play TES, and also makes Probe much better. EtW is by far the best plan we have against RUG.
- I'm not running a wasteable Island mainboard just to be able to cast 3 cards in some very specific matchups.
This deck is just TES with different lands. People are cutting Stifles from RUG, so I'll gladly run fetchlands. 4 Mine might be fine as well.
Also, TNT is ANT with a splash to red, but with Cabal Ritual. I would classify the list that won GP Ghent as TNT. But whatever, doesn't really matter.
"Part of me belives that Barrin taught me meditation simply to shut me up."
-Ertai, wizard adept
http://solidarityprimer.proboards85.com/index.cgi
Bahamuth- I like your replies, many of the issues you brought up are what plague me when deciding between TES, ANT, TNT etc. Im gonna sleeve up something similar, just because your list is different enough that I may be mistaken in my assessment of earlier hybrids.
I agree on both cards, im only using 2 wish currently and even tested entomb in its place. Ive been rolling with 2 snapcaster mage, although props go to someone else, but why not try the dude out just to make sure im not delusional. Sounds crazy but he fills the maindeck roll of a mini one-sided IGG very efficiently and is simply sick with probe therapy, plus beating someone down with a 2/1 is fucking funny.I almost never use the Returns because it's absolutely terrible. I wish there was something else I could run here. In fact, I wish I wouldn't have to play Burning Wish.
This. Again with SCM you can seriously shred hands, its just ridiculous but thats just his secondary value besides flashing tutors etc.Concerning the Therapy/Probe package, I'm running 4 Probe no matter what, and I belive everyone should. I think 3 Therapy is completely fine with 4 Probe 4 Duress.
[QUOTE]This deck is just TES with different lands.QUOTE]
I guess this is what im getting at. It plays the accel of TES, but, its 3 color TES; it feels closer to TNT, but not quite. Would a couple basics really hurt? I dont think so and if not you may be onto something man.
Again I have to agree, but what are the alternatives?- Replacing EtW with Burning Wish is the last thing I would do. Burning Wish is, together with Chrome Mox, the worst card in the deck.
I would too. Obviously you need red for EtW but can it function with CRs over RoF? I prefer CR after turn 2 (occasionally after turn 1) but maybe this is too slow since you probably want to dump your hand almost immediately with EtW as the primary plan. I guess im just evaluating this out loud because im liking most of the list except the manabase, and to an extent the RoF which likely means what I want isnt viable but maybe its still worth talking about idk.Also, TNT is ANT with a splash to red, but with Cabal Ritual. I would classify the list that won GP Ghent as TNT. But whatever, doesn't really matter.
I had a Merfolk player snap Force of Will my turn one Xantid Swarm. When I cast a second off of Lotus Petal, only then did he stop to read it. I'm not sure what to think about that, exactly.
"I'm willing to imagine a TES where Past in Flames replaces Ill-Gotten Gains entirely, and we just don't play Diminishing Returns." - me, 29/09/2011
Founding member of Team Scrubbad: Legacy Legends
Get better testing partners or congrats on your top 8 would be my lines of thought
Matt Bevenour in real life
Makes sense to me. He knew it was a must-counter by reputation. Only when he couldn't stop it was he bound to his fate, and he wanted to know what that was. He's kindov unlucky to have you peel another one off, especially on the same turn, but at least then you're down on cards, and he could possibly race you. I don't really see what you're saying, I still read everything just to make sure I don't miss something.
I just sort of expected that if he had to read it at all, he would do so at his earliest opportunity. Your explanation of his train of thought had occurred to me, and I suspect that was indeed what he was thinking.
In other storm news, I placed higher than Bryant on breakers at SCG Buffalo.
In the Legacy Challenge I thought I had punted a game two to a Green-Black Metalworker deck by not recalling that Lodestone Golem didn't apply to artifact spells (he had Lodestone, Chalice on zero, and Revoker on LED), but now that I count out the mana again I think I coundn't have won. In game three I keep a hand that goes off on turn one if Probe hits any of 20 mana sources, miss, he locks me out.
That's a slight mark against Gitaxian Probe, but otherwise I didn't mind it. The notion of playing a fourteenth land (Badlands?) does make me rock hard though...
Did make a mistake in the last round of the Legacy Open playing for $50. I'm at 6 and my RUG Delver opponent had 6 on the ground and 3 in the air. I made a bunch of Goblins, but made a poor attack leaving only two blockers. He drew Forked Bolt and finished smashing my face in. I don't remember the exact life total situation, so it's possible I couldn't have won, but I think I might have given him some extra outs.
I played 1 Echoing Truth, 2 Chain of Vapor where Bryant has 2 Truth, 1 Grapeshot. There was one situation where I missed having Grapeshot, and had to pass the turn against an Elves opponent (who turned out to be in Bryant's car), but he bricked and I killed him on my turn.
The sideboard card I was least happy with was Past in Flames. I never used it. Probably going to try something else in that slot. Maybe the Grapeshot. Maybe even Chain Lightning or something like that.
I split my two matches against Merfolk, winning every game in which I played Xantid Swarm on turn one. You don't always have it though, and some of them are playing Spell Pierces or even Chalices main. It will be interesting to see their list once there's a concensus best version of the deck.
My other two losses were to Sneak Show and Blue-Red Delver. One storm short to kill the Sneak Show guy after he made an Emrakul in game one, game two he made a Griselbrand, and you know how that goes. Blue-Red guy just got me with more counterspells than I could disrupt. Apparently in game two he boarded in Spell Pierces and Mindbreak Traps. I didn't see them, but I guess that guy just decided he didn't want to lose to Rituals that day. He had Mana Leak main, oddly enough.
Two friends made Top 8, so that was nice. Couldn't talk Lucas Siow out of playing an awful Blue-Black Show and Tell deck, so obviously he scrubbed right out. Got to point out to Adrian Sullivan (who was fun to play against despite his awful commentary) that the little Asian guy and the white guy across the table from him over there were the creators of Canadian Threshold and T.E.S. respectively.
"I'm willing to imagine a TES where Past in Flames replaces Ill-Gotten Gains entirely, and we just don't play Diminishing Returns." - me, 29/09/2011
Founding member of Team Scrubbad: Legacy Legends
Do you remember what your hand was? Are you saying that your hand was fine and you wouldn't have been locked out if Gitaxian Probe were a discard spell, or are you saying that Gitaxian Probe made you feel comfortable with keeping a hand that didn't do enough unless you drew perfectly?
I've got nothing else to test with my current T.E.S. list, I'm fairly happy with where it is. But I'll test the ETW over ToA. There were some mulligans at the SCG open that were strictly because ToA was in my opening hand. These hands might've been solid if it were ETW. Instead of essentially a dead card. The only problem I have with this is that cards like Terminus are now real cards against us. The incentive I see to running four Probes is to make Past in Flames a better Burning Wish target, but in order to do so you're cutting a Burning Wish leaving the deck with only two other Wishes to find Tendrils. I'd like to see a third/forth Probe in the deck to make Past in Flames better but I don't know if I like going down to three Wish/Three Mox.
Also, I'd prefer Silence to Therapy every time. Losing the five color option all together sucks. Xantid Swarm is pretty damn good right now.
Even against U/W Miracles, I still don't think I'd rather have the ToA. In my experience, casting a ToA for 10 from your hand never happens. Only when you both have a hand that can do that, and the opponents hand/plays allow for it, it's a possibility. I think it's more likely that I can win a game on EtW by them not finding a Ternimus (and this is very often the case because hands that draw the EtW very often cast it turn 2 and can often Duress their Brainstorm out), than that I win on ToA for 10. Additionally, I'll mulligan every hand where ToA is the only buisness spell, whereas I'll keep anything that resolves a quick EtW.
As far as I'm concerned, the incentive to run Probes is to gain information that's often helping out immensly. I've won so many games where I just Probe on turn 2 and see my opponent has no answer to a quick EtW (with +1 storm from probe)
These two statements have nothing to do with each other. I'm not losing the 5 colour option, I'm gaining the 3 colour option. If it turns out to be better for casting Swarms, you can just run your manabase in my list.
Note that discard spells are more important in my list because it has the Empty the Warrens plan. Casting a discard spell the turn before casting EtW happens much more often than having to cast both Chant and EtW.
"Part of me belives that Barrin taught me meditation simply to shut me up."
-Ertai, wizard adept
http://solidarityprimer.proboards85.com/index.cgi
Between cantrips, probe, and IT without hellbent, I rarely have problems getting to 8-10 storm (fetches help) without the opponent playing spells for tendrils to be relevant in a drawn out game. Factor in silence, which the counter deck has to counter (and why would they keep a hand without any?), naturally drawn tendrils is amazing against slower control decks! I'd even consider boarding the wish target in and boarding out one IT so BW isn't dead. Stoneforge makes this plan less attractive, but wanting EtW against stoneforge is risky as hell anyway, even without terminus
Matt Bevenour in real life
@Bryant
@Bhamut
I agree with Bryant regarding Tendrils main, now with 4 probes are even better, you can garranty 9 spells with 8 cards beeing 1 a probe and another cantrip, 1 or 2 lands played.
I prefer to leave Empty in side, althouth is not a bad idea playing around therapys and duress to let Empty be stronger, however the only difference I see is that when playing Tendrils you'll play most the duresses and therapys the same turn, with Empty you can play the turn after, another argument is that when playing Tendrils Or Empty the cards you'll take will be the almost same cards AND with Empty you'll need preference over other cards (Terminus, senseis, E.E), these cards should not have in mind to pick up to a combo player, Definately prefer Tendrils.
Enough arguments.
I agree on no less than 4 burning also. It's key at least in TES.
My question to both:
About:
12 Lands - 3 mox or
11 Lands - 4 mox?
Don't consider 13 Lands with 4 gitaxian, I tested a litle and as I said lands and moxen repeat to much, I think its enough with 12 lands
And
3 therapys - 4 Dures or
4 therapys - 3 Dures?
I really think gitaxian should be included 4 in TES, they even get better hands with Tendrils.
The idea around 4 gitaxian and less lands, 12 to 11 is the parity also.
Let me know your ideas!
@Bahamuth— I kind of agree with your suggestions now that I've wrapped my head around your goals for the deck, especially the part about Empty the Warrens vs. Canadian (and Maverick too, actually). Prioritizing an early EtW for 12+, which we both know is monumentally better than an EtW for 10, should probably have much more love than what I was giving it in my initial suggestion for a list, and Probe is obviously great in increasing the chances of an EtW for 12 as opposed to an EtW for 10. I still think you could probably cut a Rite of Flame (I don't agree with your declaration that BW is the second-worst card in the deck) for the fourth Probe. I can totally see Probe invalidating Past in Flames completely, so I can totally see agreeing with you in cutting it in the near future after I get my bearings in with Probe in testing.
I disagree with your assertion that EtW would be superior to ToA maindeck vs. UW (this take on a storm variant initially feels decisively worse vs. UW and Esper than, say, Bryant's current list; this is not to say it makes UWx an unfavorable matchup, of course). I also agree with Tammit that Probe makes Tendrils kills that much easier, making me hesitant to cut it from the maindeck. I actually can see preferring it vs. Canadian as early as turn three and almost assuredly turn four considering the chances they end the game at more than 18 life are pretty low, but there's most definitely not enough room for both if one should wish for four Probes, and Tendrils is usually 100% dead turns 1-3. It is certainly possible to just board out an IT or something for Tendrils though, which could definitely solve that problem.
But yes, having the actual storm spell in hand vs. Pierce/Daze is (or at least feels) SO much better than intending to tutor for one the same turn, so I totally think you're probably right about having access to four EtW in the 75.
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I have been goldfishing. The deck's goals with only needing four mana allow for a lot more turn 1 going off. This has been really great. I'm currently at 3 mox/3Probe and 13 land. I'd like to fit the 4th Probe somewhere, but I don't know if cutting lands is correct. I'm also trying no Tendrils with an Empty. So far I haven't missed Tendrils.
My thought process is that with more Probes it's theoretically possible to draw more but with only twelve the chances are slimmer. I'd hate to make Wasteland better against us too. What are people cutting? The forth Gemstone?
I'm still playing Silence, it's too valuable against blue decks to pass up for a card like Cabal Therapy.
Cutting Silence seems like asking to lose to Spell Snare over and over.
For the guy who asked on the previous page: that hand I kept against Metalworker where the Git Probe needed to hit mana was pretty poor otherwise. I think a mulligan would have sent me down to five though.
Maindeck Empty the Warrens seems crummy against Stoneforge Mystic. Let's play a Badlands or an Island or something. (Especially since we're cutting a Chrome Mox.)
"I'm willing to imagine a TES where Past in Flames replaces Ill-Gotten Gains entirely, and we just don't play Diminishing Returns." - me, 29/09/2011
Founding member of Team Scrubbad: Legacy Legends
Glad I'm not the only person to think so.
I still don't get how people think adding more Probes makes Past in Flames weaker. Makes the card amazing.
I lost the auction on a Japanese foil Xantid tonight. If someone here won it. Fuck you.
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