Help, done some testings.
My tuned lists is as:
3 A.Decay
2 T.Seize
2 Xantid (The nuts vs Show And Tell and Reanimator Still toguh match ups)
2 Karakas (Same as Xantid AND vs MAverick)
1 Revoke Existence (Shame instead of Shattering Spree, although thnaks to 3 Decay seems better vs MUD or likes BUT we need answer to Leylines)
1 PiF (I'm still not sure about this and IGG)
1 Diminishing
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty
1 Tendrils
Side Strategies Tested:
My list as reference:
_Is same as Post except:
_ManaBase: 8 Rainbowlands, 2 Uderground sea, 2 undiscovered p.,
_- 1 Empty, - 1Gitaxian = +1 C.Moxen, +1 Tendrils
vs Miracles:
I'll go Into:
-3 Gitaxian
-1 C. Moxen
-1 I.Tutor
=
+2T.Seize
+3Abrupt Decay
vs Maverick:
-4Duress, -3 Silence
=
+2Karakas+2T.Seize+3AbruptDecay
vs MUD:
-4Silence
=
+3A.Decay
+1T.Seize
Rest is the same,
vs Team America I dont expect to bring in them also.
A Point I want to me it clear:
In my opinion Therapyes, once tested don't seem to be so good on the paper, I mean in their role it is absolutly better T.Seize, and you need Gitaxian to make them better or at least not useless..., even when you need to take cards out in second games, gitaxian is alwyas the first card to side out, and then again is counterintuitive put in aditional therepays...
I definately avoided it,
we need to avoid scenarios like:
Turn one and we start, hand with therapy, no gitaxian and is second game vs miracles, in this case T.Seize is fundamental better than therapy.
The idea of taking out several copies of 1 single card does not worth it OR is not comparable with the Trade Off VS 1. loosing 2 life. 2. More security when siding out Gitaxian. 3.Always take out the card.
More/less same thinkings?
Agree anybody?
If don't agree let me know why.
I have a specific question to Bryant and is:
Is there any reason to side out -1 I.Tutor instead (-1 Ponder OR -1Gitaxian) when facing decks like (ShowAndTell AND Reanimator) OR (Miracles AND RUG AND Tempo)
While my caption for your post shows how I feel, you opened up my eyes to something.Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
Shattering Spree is not a sacred cow. I'm going to opt to run Hull Breach instead. If you're casting either Hull Breach or Revoke Existence, there's probably a good chance there's red mana floating from Rite of Flames meaning that the green or white mana could be either or.
My current sideboard is:
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Karakas
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Hull Breach
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
I'm not a fan of MD Cabal Therapies either, because it limits your ability to SB out Gitaxian Probes, and in the event you don't have a Gitaxian Probe or Duress then Cabal Therapy is too unreliable compared to Thought Seize, Duress or Inquisition of Kozilek.
The mana cost of Hull Breach is worse than the mana cost of Revoke Existence, so I'm not certain why you'd choose to play Hull Breach instead, and furthermore I'm not certain which Enchantments you'd need to remove over artifacts in order to choose less efficient artifact removal at all? Removing Countebalance is a pipe dream, so did Leyline of Sanctity and not being able to Tendrils of Agony become a thing again or something?
Carpet of Flowers has been a really good suggestion from what I've seen, a surprising number of people Spell Pierce and Daze it so it's like a pseudo disruption card. Not sure if it's the best choice, but it's certainly viable.
Who's main decking Cabal Therapy? I'm running them in my sideboard, also it's fine to side out a Gitaxian Probe, just minimize it to that.
Did you not read my post above? Yes, people play Leyline sometimes. I refuse to be cold to that card, which is why I'm running Hull Breach.
Intelligent players can win around Carpet of Flowers, I've seen it happen too many times. I certainly won't be playing it.
Sorry, I meant MDing them as in playing them in your 60 post-board, I don't think the card is reliable enough in TES compared to ANT as a card in your 60 and I would't play it as anything other than as a wish target because of it.
What deck is playing Leyline of Sanctity that you can't beat by playing Empty the Warrens against, or is the problem before you resolve your win condition and not being able to target them with your disruption spells? I'm not saying it's bad to play enchantment removal by any means, I always liked Simplify personally, I just haven't seen any enchantments other than Counterbalance that I feel I need to remove or can't win around. Are they playing Leyline of Santity in Show&Tell SBs again?
Eh, Carpet of Lowers isn't dead in the RUG match up compared to Xantid Swarm, which is why I like it in theory. I guess I'll have to wait until I run into those Carpet of Flowers only hands before I cut it for something else, but the mana production and soft counter it provides with being able to check out the opponent's hand reliably makes it better than it has been before IMO.
There's Duress and Gitaxian Probes post board for information. Not to mention, most of the time you're only sideboarding in two. In the Scenarios that you're bringing in all three, you've sided out dead spells like Silence in those types of match-ups. I think it's great.
I've had it come down against me from UW Miracles/Stoneblade, Hivemind, and Show & Tell decks. I want an answer to it, if it means swapping out Shattering Spree - it's worth it. I don't understand how Simplify is any better than Hull Breach. If you've resolved Burning Wish against counterbalance, the chances are they didn't have a two on top of their deck. Also, Hull Breach hits more things. Empty the Warrens won't always get you there against decks that also pack Terminus, but there aren't too many people doing this. It could just be a local thing.
Xantid Swarm isn't for that match-up, that's where the sideboard Cabal Therapies come in. But if I remember correctly you just run four Xantid instead. That could be your own fault. I've watched too many games where people have Carpet in play and lose the game for a few reasons.
1.) It doesn't beat Force of Will.
2.) The opponent isn't stupid.
A smart player will sit on fetchlands or return their Islands to their lands with Daze after laying a Delver or Goyf.
Simplify isn't any better than Hullbreach, it's just more mana efficient than Hullbreach and depends on whether or not you're willing to run more SB slots for either two 1 mana answers or one 2 mana answer.
Yeah, I get you have roughly the same number of enablers for TES as ANT, but I usually find Cabal Therapy over Thought Seize etc. lets you down at the worst possible moments. Needing 1 of 7 of those other cards, especially in the case of Duress where the Cabal Therpay is potentially over kill, just lets one more thing go wrong and unlike ANT you really don't have the cantrip and manabase to build up over time where Cabal Therapy is really good vs a fully sculpted hand.
That's just been my experience with the card.
Dude do you fuckiong realize what your are sayiong? I might be very inebriated right now, but godddamn, they are fucking expending their goddamn Daze right then and there, fucking Carpett is a fuckinbg disruption sopell. Yes. Just fucking try it out again, it might be tioo narrow to play, but serously, i guranateee the optimal list veruss Canadian Thresh (known for some fucking resion as RUG deliver for some reason), runs Cartpet if Flowers, and if that's the most popular deck... I think you know where I'm getting at. Also, where it's colored Col Ring against Candian, or Mox Diamonfd at worst, it's fucking Gilded Lotus for one against UW C/B. Fucking Gilded Lpotus. Just tryo it out. It might not end up being the shit, but still, actually physially play it in matches right now, and see. Yes, I know Stilfe can targfet it. Yes, I know that the oppoentne can playt around it. But alll of those lines are detrimental, slightly, to the opponent. Just try it out, trust me.
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This is Bryant you're talking to. He fucking invented the deck.
(And has been playing it like forever.)
Wish board means limited sideboard space.
We need disruption, so Carpets are unlikely to fit in the board.
I tried and it cost me other matchups because I couldn't fit answers to them.
Yes, versus Canadian Thresh the Carpets are killing.
But against other blue matchups that use more hard counters we need real protection.
And we don't want to ignore Maverick either.
I agree on revoke Existence > Hull Breach,
Simply Revoke Existence is easier to cast and the counterpart VS Hull Breach does not worth it.
Carpet Of Flowers is good, but I do not see space in the side, prefer other cards, I used it a lot however in DDFT in 5 color build, in here it really shines.
Also and again, T.Seize will be for me always good, I understand playing Empty Main can make Therapy better, but I don't play ETW main. Same thoutghs.
I made a question to Bryant , please let me know:
Is there any reason to side out -1 I.Tutor instead (-1 Ponder OR -1 Gitaxian) when facing decks like (ShowAndTell AND Reanimator) OR (Miracles AND RUG AND Tempo)
I mean, why or which are the reasons to sometimes side out 1 I.tutor n sometimes 1 Ponder, I see that in match ups like ShowAndTell OR Reanimate that is the strategy but in Miracles or RUG that is not the CardsToSideOut.
Let me know.
Question:
Playing 3 Therapies/T.Seize and 2 A.Decay OR 2 Therapies/T.Seize and 3 A.Decay,
I feel that I want to play 3 A.Decay, and they've been great in testing, they are used in some many roles...
Last edited by Pelikanudo; 10-09-2012 at 09:49 AM.
I remember my first beer.
Revoke isn't actually any easier to cast, which was my point - but do as you will.
The difference between siding out Tutor versus Ponder is to smooth out draws. That's it. If you're siding one over another you probably won't notice the difference.
If you want to play Thoughtseize and Probe without Empty the Warrens as an option that doesn't require lifeloss, good luck. I'm really sick of repeating myself to you dude, I post the same shit when you ask for advice, you ignore it, then continue to ask for help. I won't be responding to any more of these posts.
This. They are virtually identical when casting, the one colorless could just as well be red mana from one of your rocks or rite of flame. The white is coming from the same source (5c lands, petals) until post board when you have access to extra white from karakas, I guess.
Hull Breach is RG, you're going to be generating R, considering you're casting wish anyways, and you'd likely have extra somewhere. The biggest difference is that Hull Breach can hit two targets, and Revoke only hits one, but exiles it. Hull Breach can also be Blue Blasted; I understand RUG sometimes has one and likes to bring it in sometimes.
In any case, I'm currently sticking with Shattering Spree - I've tested the other options but prefer being able to deal with chalice at one if I really need to. I blame the stax players, and the lack of decent enchantment targets for the local metagame.
Hi guys. I'm planning to pick this deck up soon, as I already have the LEDs in my Dredge. Was wondering, with 12 land lists would it be OK to run something like this?
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Forbidden Orchard
I am a bit hesitant to pick up the U. Seas at they're slightly above my budget for this deck. Any suggestions? I do realize of course that the fetchlands are there to work in tandem with Brainstorm, but playing Watery Grave and Steam Vents can be a bit of a headache when resolving Ad Nauseum, no?
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Watery Grave or additional City of Brass are the only permissible solutions to budget problems.
But they're both bad.
So.
Just bite the bullet and get the Underground Seas.
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I wouldn't worry about blue blast, you would first have to resolve Burning Wish through it for them to then counter spell the Hull Breach. Not to mention, it's just not that popular of a card. What does RUG even have that we would want to blow up?
Hull Breach still blows up Chalice, but now there's Decay as well.
I would run Shocklands before I ran Orchard. I would take a look at Undiscovered Paradise, but I think shocks and fetches are the proper things for you. Those tokens will deal you more damage over two turns that the lands, that and you're creating blockers for your own Empty the Warrens. Counter intuitive.
Shocks it is for me then :) I do have Undiscovered Paradise though, so I'd probably try those out as well. I'll be "biting the bullet" and getting the U. Seas much much later.
SCG Cinci fail report:
I had been testing Krosan Grip with some success in the two weeks prior to SCG Cinci, but obviously three drops are terrible with Ad Nauseum. I was mainly gunning for beating miracles and consequently, it seems it made my tempo matchups worse. In testing the night before against miracles, I found two things to be very true for game one. An opening hand duress or naturally drawn Ad Nauseum usually let me win game 1. Secondly, I have been increasingly unhappy with probe for two reasons. First, if I'm fine with losing two life, I feel like I should be playing good cards like thoughtseize. Secondly, it makes keeping hands such a crap shoot. TES is mostly mana and a few business spells, and you can never count on probe to get you there. In small weekly events I had been going -1 probe/ponder + bayou and had a much better time with good green sideboard cards.
You never really know how effectively a few card changes are, but it seemed good enough. I had thus settled on something similar to the standard list with -2 GP + Bayou +1 Duress. In the morning I said fuck it, and pulled the last two probes and altered the sideboard to look like this.
Decklist:
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Silence
4 Duress
2 Ad Nauseam
SB
2 Xantid Swarm
3 Karakas
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Shattering Spree
1 Pyroclasm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames
1 Reverent Silence
Things to note: +2 lands + 1 duress + 1 Ad Nauseum +1 Chrome Mox, no win condition main deck. Very narrow sideboard. REVERENT SILENCE. Therapy sucks without probe.
Round 1: Esper Stoneblade
G1: Keep a hand with two lands, duress, ponder and acceleration. I get inquisition and lose ponder. I draw acceleration and duress, seeing a hand of SFM, StP, lands, and brainstorm. Take the blue card. I proceed to top deck mana for 5 or so turns and eventually SFM + vclique + karakas stop anything from happening.
G2: I board -2 silence + 2 xantid swarm. First turn swarm it resolves and my opponent slumps having obviously boarded out removal. Similarly to last game we trade discard. Despite getting 2x LED and having live xantid all game, I don't get there.
Round 2: Enchantress
G1: I live the dream and turn two wish for Reverent Silence. I wipe his board third turn and ad nauseum.
G2: I bring in decays for silences. All I remember is decaying a stony silence, then decaying a Teeg, then decaying a choke. Ad Nauseum gets there after untapping.
Round 3: UWR Miracles
G1: I'm on the play. I duress and take fow leaving him with counterbalance and brainstorm. He goes land go. I ponder and find Burning Wish. He topdecks Counterbalance and slams it. I topdeck ad nauseum to go with 2x dark ritual in hand. I play a third land and run burning wish out. He blind reveals a 3 and the wish resolves. I get Reverent Silence. He gains 6 life and I Ad Nauseum and tendrils him.
G2: +2 Xantid + 3 decay, -2 silence - ponder -infernal tutor - something else
He puts a top out. I play a xantid that resolves. We play draw go for a while. Eventually I decay a counterbalance, untap, swing with xantid, no response, win.
Round 4: RUG Delver
G1: I open a sick hand with 2x LED, IT, Duress, 2 lands, ponder. He wins the roll and has first turn delver. I duress and he dazes. Delver flips. We play and land go and both ponder. Eventually here is the board state.
Him: 1 Untapped Volcanic 1 Untapped Trop flipped Delver. 6 cards in hand.
Me: Untapped Volc Untapped Sea Chrome mox (imprint silence)
hand: 3 LED, IT, Silence, Duress, Lotus Petal
I obviously go for it. First I lead with LED and he force pitching fire/ice. How can I lose? Then 2x LED, LP resolve. Then duress, forced O_O. Two cards left. Silence? maindeck Flusterstorm. I go all in on tutor. Second maindeck Flusterstorm.
G2: -1 Chrome mox + 1 ETW
I empty turn 4 for 14 goblins when he has a board of goyf, goose, flipped delver. He has the burn to race me.
Round 5: UW? Miracles
Very similar to round 3. I jam the Reverent Silence taking down a counterbalance. I get to go off before he lands another.
G2: Decay eot, then win. 4-0 vs miracles so far.
Round 5: RUG delver (the guy who eventually gets 2nd place
G1: He has triple force blue card when I go all in on turn 3.
G2: I empty for 12 Goblins out of desperation against a board of goyf/goose/delver. He has untaps and drops double lavamancer. He races me... I could have won if I had Grapeshot in the sideboard.
Round 6: BUG Delver
G1: I mulligan. I duress and see thoughtseize, daze, stifle, brainstorm, goyf, lands. I take thoughtseize as my hand is like 4 mana sources and tutor. I can't fetch on my next turn because stifle is up so I just pass. We eventually play draw go and trade some discard and wasteland, I get to fetch etc. At 14 and facing a 4/5 goyf I decide to go for it knowing his hand is daze/stifle/x. I have mana to pay for daze and am hoping to get a nice ad naseum (remember 4x chrome mox). I go all on in with tutor/LEDs and his last card is spell snare.
G2: I saw ghastly demise and decay game 1, I decide to chance try to blow him out with xantid swarm. I figure he will have less then 3 answers to it if it resolves, so I guess just make him have it. I have a ridiculous had with 2 lands, 2xled, swarm, IT, ponder. I open with fetch, bayou, swarm. Resolves. 2x LED? Resolves. He wastes me and passes. I drop a land a ponder. Hoping for a petal or something, I draw a land after a shuffle. Waste again. Land go. He inquisitions my Tutor. Despite having swarm up from turn 1, with 2x LED. I never get there before 2x goyf kills me. FML
0-2 Zombies
0-2 Dredge. I have to mull both games and he has breakthrough.
So overall, Decay and Reverent Silence were awesome. I like that I can answer Lodestone/Leyline of Sanctity with BW. Decay was insane but I'm not sure the mana base can be stable and reliably fast. I definitely support bayou as it can duress/ritual and cast sweet green sideboard cards reliably. How can we fight both delver and counterbalance? I wish the show and tell decks were not so boring.
@Bryant:
My question is about:
Why you take out 1 I.T. in match ups like Renimator OR ShowAndTell and
vs MatchUps like RUG OR Miracles you take out Ponder.
The other question was about the number of Therapys and A.Decay as I think that these numbers should be paired. Regarding to this I play T.Seize, that's my decision and I'm not asking advice about this, for me it is clear to play T.Seize or whatever thing instead Therapy, I exposed my arguments which can be accepted or not. I asked advice about the numbers.
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[QUOTE=Pelikanudo;678894@Bryant:
My question is about:
Why you take out 1 I.T. in match ups like Renimator OR ShowAndTell and
vs MatchUps like RUG OR Miracles you take out Ponder.
The other question was about the number of Therapys and A.Decay as I think that these numbers should be paired. Regarding to this I play T.Seize, that's my decision and I'm not asking advice about this, for me it is clear to play T.Seize or whatever thing instead Therapy, I exposed my arguments which can be accepted or not. I asked advice about the numbers.[/QUOTE]
Pretty sure the first question has been beaten to death in the last four TES threads. Board out Infernal Tutor against decks playing Surgical Extraction. It also opens up Burning Wish >> Infernal Tutor >> Win Condition. Sometimes it's just preference. You can usually board out three random combinations of Infernal Tutor, Probe, Ponder or Chrome Mox and still be fine.
The correct number of Thoughtseize is zero.
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