Hello guys,
i have been silently reading this thread so far, but now i would like to contribute my personal list of DGA or better BW-Stoneblade. Some people were recently arguing about Mirran Crusader, a card which i am really fond of. I think Mirran Crusader represents a formidable clock in the actual metagame, if you can protect him from red sources.
My build is kind of different, compared to most of the lists presented here, because i don't play a lot of tokens and no Liliana. I simply feel that tokens are much too slow right now, and whithout Lingering Souls i find it difficult to +1 Liliana reliably. My metagame is full of Maverick, Omni-Tell, RUG and some other combo decks, which led me to playing said Mirran Crusader and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. The latter seems to play very well with my creature base, but can be a pain in the ass when casting Vindicate.
Nevertheless, i am really happy with my list and strongly recommend you try out Mirran Crusader + MoR + Thalia.
BW-Stoneblade
Artifact
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of War and Peace
Creatures
4x Dark Confidant
3x Mirran Crusader
4x Mother of Runes
2x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Instant
4x Swords to Plowshares
Land
2x Isolated Chapel
1x Karakas
4x Marsh Flats
4x Plains
2x Scrubland
4x Swamp
4x Wasteland
2x Windswept Heath
Planeswalker
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Sorceries
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Vindicate
Sideboard
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Rest in Peace
2x Enlightened Tutor
3x Extirpate
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Hymn to Tourach
2x Perish
Notes: 2x Isolated Chapel are budget reasons, but they work well for me. Some might think Thalia interferes with my numerous Spells, which is true to some point, but which is also the reason i run 23 lands and the full set of Wasteland. Wasteland + Thalia + Vindicate are really good in terms of mana denial.
I could imagine taking out Thalia and adding more discard, or maybe Aven Mindscensor. But for now i will be settling with this list and hopefully play it to some success in the next few upcoming tournaments in my area.
With a such humanbased creature base you should really play with a couple of cavern of souls. Do you know whats better then a thalia? An uncountable thalia! I would change you mana base thats for sure.
6 fetchlands
4 scrubland
1 Karakas
3 Cavern of souls
4 Wastelands
2 Plains
2 Swamp
Feel that 22 lands is more then enough. ANd change the hymns to an other 1cc discard spell like cabal therapy or thoughseize. Its better for the mana as well as its easier to play arround daze, spell pierce, snare etc.
I'm glad to see someone else running Mirran Crusader. The guy is a beast. And it's funny that you made the comment about Thalia and Mindcensor, because I'm considering the exact same thing, perhaps with one Bitterblossom too. I always could run a mix of Hymns again. I'm just terrified of taking her out and then getting paired against Storm or Ad Nauseum.Originally Posted by JanoschEausH
Concerning my previous list and comments about four-drops, I ended up talking myself back into running Restoration Angel. I cut Sculler for regular discard and the Judge's Familiars for three Resto. and a Sword of War and Peace.
For the moment, here's my list, potentially with a swap for Thalia:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mirran Crusader
3 Restoration Angel
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Batterskull
4 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Arid Mesa
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Plains
2 Swamp
SB
2 Spectral Lynx
1 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Rest in Peace
1 Warmth
1 Serenity
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Rule of Law
I went back to four equipment both because I like having plenty and because I added Restoration Angel, which can reset Stoneforge. I might be living on the edge with 21 mana sources...
16 humans and no cavern of souls. You should really try out them, the land is insane. Uncounterable moms and bobs will win games.
You have a good point. I might toss two in there. The drawback for colored spells is real, but at least those are all one mana and the artifacts are colorless (obviously). Also, nothing in my sideboard requires more than one colored mana. Thanks for the suggestion.
I used to run Elspeth and for the most part she was awesome. My meta eventually played more Spell Pierce and Sulfur Elemental. Not specifically for me of course but the splash damage hurt.
I like Elspeth, especially with Mirran Crusader, but I've found her to be underwhelming at times. Maybe I just haven't given her enough of a chance. Jumping a dude with Jitte is real nice.
Yes, i agree! My manabase is pretty aweful. But sadly, i don't have the money for another pair of Scrublands or Caverns (seriously that land is costy and is only played in goblins...) I will be testing it though!
I like my hymns, but they are really bad with Thalia... Probably i should replace them with Duress or more Inquisitions. I will be trying that, too!
@scottjmorrow: Regarding Elspeth, i love her too combined with Mirran Crusader and i felt like my MU against Control was getting really poor without her. Elspeth just kills Jace in every aspect. That planeswalker is a beast and by far the second best after JTMS. So i am sticking with her. But i can see your point. Sometimes she is just a fat CMC4, which rots in your hand after several Wastelands or so...
I really think the developement of this deck is going into the wrong direction... Lingering souls was the card that made the deck playable again, since its great against control-strategies, flyers are excellent equipment-carriers and beneath that the tokens have a good synergy with cabal therapy as well...
Lists that do not use souls but critters like Thalia (wich is good vs. combo, i know that) and mirran crusaders (wtf? This card is awful without exalted as long as it has no equipment on it) won't win major tournaments, simply because they are too fair - don't get me wrong, they might be funny to play but you can't expect to win vs. fast aggro decks with cc4 angels that loose vs. tarmogoyfs... Nor will you win against decks like nic fit, that clear the board 1 time with pernicious deed and play fatties after...
Here now my list on which i worked for more then 3 months and which was quite successful in Nuremberg (mostly 4:1, sometimes 41 but never worse then 3:2 with older, worse configurations of the deck):
"Sp.e.c.t.r.e" (special executive for counter-intelligence, terrorism, revenge and extortion - tribute to James Bond :-) )
//lands (21)
4x scrubland
4x marsh flats
2x polluted delta
1x flooded strand
4x wasteland
3x swamp
1x plains
1x godless shrine (8. fetchland possible if you dont like this land)
1x karakas
//creatures (11)
4x dark confidant
4x stoneforge mystig
3x mother of runes (tried several options, from bitterblossom over nighthawks - mothers were the most solid card, exspecially with dark confidant)
//other spells (28)
4x lingering souls
4x swords to plowshares
4x inquisition of kozilek
3x cabal therapy (thoughtseizse possible in this slot but i still think therapy is the better card with tokens)
2x zealous persecution (great card in any creature-based matchup, in worst cases it deals some extra-damage with souls or imprints into =>)
2x chrome mox (gives acceleration, since you dont want to draw a second i think 2 is the correct amount of them)
2x sensei's divining top (great card with OR without confidant, wished i had 3. in the deck but no place for it...)
2x liliana of the veil (nice synergy with lingering souls, even without that 1 of the best cards vs. control and combo)
2x sorin, lord of inistrad (super flexible, since it creates jumpblocker OR helps to finish games fast with the emblem
2x umezawa's jitte (earlier i had 3 persecutions and only 1 jitte but it proofed to be too good to have another of theese after the first traded with the 1 of your opponent)
1x batterskull
//sideboard (15)
3x aethersworn canonist
3x surgical extraction
2x rest in peace (a bit anti-synergetic with lingering souls, but way too good not to play against dredge, reanimator and even canadian (as long as it does not get stifled))
3x oblivion ring (i just hate omni-show, without this MU theese slots would probably be vindicates)
2x perish
2x duress
Some words for the matchups:
Generally, the deck should crush any other creature-based deck or have at least positive mu's against them: Naming Maverick, Goblins, Elves, Canadian, death and taxes etc.. Problematic seams to be primary UW Terminus, against which i must admit the deck looses quite often, but as long, as they have no counterbalance online, dark confidant and the own planeswalkers can still make the day (not to forget a massive disruption via souls / cabal therapy).
Against storm-decks the matchup preboard is slightly negative (i admit, here thalias would be great but they fit not really in the deck-concent), postboard the matchup gets much better, thanks to additional discard and the canonists. Same is true for the omnishow-matchup.
After all i think the sideboard can be built very meta-dependant, but here the combination of black and white offers great options for any metagame.
For any questions about the deck, its matchups or special card-choices (hoping for gatecrash to make this a tier 1 deck :-) ) PM me or post in this threat.
Greetz from Germany
Marius Hausmann
I really think the developement of this deck is going into the wrong direction... Lingering souls was the card that made the deck playable again, since its great against control-strategies, flyers are excellent equipment-carriers and beneath that the tokens have a good synergy with cabal therapy as well...
Lists that do not use souls but critters like Thalia (wich is good vs. combo, i know that) and mirran crusaders (wtf? This card is awful without exalted as long as it has no equipment on it) won't win major tournaments, simply because they are too fair - don't get me wrong, they might be funny to play but you can't expect to win vs. fast aggro decks with cc4 angels that loose vs. tarmogoyfs... Nor will you win against decks like nic fit, that clear the board 1 time with pernicious deed and play fatties after...
Here now my list on which i worked for more then 3 months and which was quite successful in Nuremberg (mostly 4:1, sometimes 4
"Sp.e.c.t.r.e" (special executive for counter-intelligence, terrorism, revenge and extortion - tribute to James Bond :-) )
//lands (21)
4x scrubland
4x marsh flats
2x polluted delta
1x flooded strand
4x wasteland
3x swamp
1x plains
1x godless shrine (8. fetchland possible if you dont like this land)
1x karakas
//creatures (11)
4x dark confidant
4x stoneforge mystig
3x mother of runes (tried several options, from bitterblossom over nighthawks - mothers were the most solid card, exspecially with dark confidant)
//other spells (28)
4x lingering souls
4x swords to plowshares
4x inquisition of kozilek
3x cabal therapy (thoughtseizse possible in this slot but i still think therapy is the better card with tokens)
2x zealous persecution (great card in any creature-based matchup, in worst cases it deals some extra-damage with souls or imprints into =>)
2x chrome mox (gives acceleration, since you dont want to draw a second i think 2 is the correct amount of them)
2x sensei's divining top (great card with OR without confidant, wished i had 3. in the deck but no place for it...)
2x liliana of the veil (nice synergy with lingering souls, even without that 1 of the best cards vs. control and combo)
2x sorin, lord of inistrad (super flexible, since it creates jumpblocker OR helps to finish games fast with the emblem
2x umezawa's jitte (earlier i had 3 persecutions and only 1 jitte but it proofed to be too good to have another of theese after the first traded with the 1 of your opponent)
1x batterskull
//sideboard (15)
3x aethersworn canonist
3x surgical extraction
2x rest in peace (a bit anti-synergetic with lingering souls, but way too good not to play against dredge, reanimator and even canadian (as long as it does not get stifled))
3x oblivion ring (i just hate omni-show, without this MU theese slots would probably be vindicates)
2x perish
2x duress
Some words for the matchups:
Generally, the deck should crush any other creature-based deck or have at least positive mu's against them: Naming Maverick, Goblins, Elves, Canadian, death and taxes etc.. Problematic seams to be primary UW Terminus, against which i must admit the deck looses quite often, but as long, as they have no counterbalance online, dark confidant and the own planeswalkers can still make the day (not to forget a massive disruption via souls / cabal therapy).
Against storm-decks the matchup preboard is slightly negative (i admit, here thalias would be great but they fit not really in the deck-concent), postboard the matchup gets much better, thanks to additional discard and the canonists. Same is true for the omnishow-matchup.
After all i think the sideboard can be built very meta-dependant, but here the combination of black and white offers great options for any metagame.
For any questions about the deck, its matchups or special card-choices (hoping for gatecrash to make this a tier 1 deck :-) ) PM me or post in this threat.
Greetz from Germany
Marius Hausmann
I really enjoyed reading what you are saying about DGA. Not only because your list is very similar to mine, but also because your conclusions about cardchoices seem to fit my experiences.
Now, I´d like to know a bit more about a few cards you are or aren´t using. First of all: Bitterblossom. I experienced, that an early resolved Blossom wins a lot of games against controledecks, which are about a third of the decks, that are played in my area. At its worst it produces cheap flying chumpblockers and therapy fodder, at its best it brings up an army of flying jitte-carriers. Any other thoughts about it but "mother was better"? I´d really aprecciate.
I never was sure about zealous persecution. Sometimes it won games, sometimes it just get stuck in my hand. It roughly gains you a round against controle or combo and is more like a winmorecard against aggro. Nice imprint for mox thou, i admit.
In how many games do you want to see/draw a second jitte? Does it justify the fourth mystic?
Are you satisfied with 2 lilianas or would you add one if you had the space?
And finally, about your sb. What do you think about angel of despair instead of o ring if its mostly against omnitell? Do you prefer o ring because of its versatility? And what do you think about Dystopia > Perish?
I also play a remarkably similar list and was wondering how you guys do against MONO RED Burn. I went as far as putting in 4 copies of Leyline of Sanctity to the sideboard to have a decent game 2 and 3 but still find that this match up is not in out favour. Oh and I go with Angel of Despair in my side vs Omnitell, and even with the possibility of Dark Confident hitting it and taking 7, I wouldnt play without 3 copies in the side.
Vs Burn it really depends on how they draw. usually they get me to approx. 5 until im able to recover. if they have significant good hands (what happens rather often with burn) they win. because burn is quite simple to play and to understand, it´s easy to say: if they run out of fuel before you run out of life chances are good, that you will win. we have a few options to recover life: jitte, batterskull, sorin, and nothing bugs a burnplayer more than lifegain. disrupt them early through discard (i run 3 duress sb + 4 inqui/3therapy maindeck) and fetch for basics to be immune to price of progress.
Hey guys i just won my last local tournament with BW-Stoneblade. (referring to this list)
I just replaced the Hymn to Tourachs with Duress and one Inquisition of Kozilek. It worked really well!
It was only 4 Rounds, but we have some really good players there (a guy going 11-0 at Day 1 at Grand Prix Ghent for example), so it wasn't a cakewalk! ;)
Round 1 vs. Team America (BUG Delver) 2:0
Two easy games. He wasn't able to stop my Dark Confidant in G1 and was beaten down by a Mirran Crusader with Jitte. (This guy is really unfair against BUG...)
In G2 i was able to strip his hand with alot of discard and colorscrew him with Wastelands and Vindicates.
Round 2 vs. Bant 2:0
Two easy games again. Discard takes his threats and Elspeth goes all the way through.
G2 was more of a fight. He beats me down with an exalted Dryad Arbor because i want to keep my Mother of Runes up for protection. Elspeth enters the battlefield and wins from there. He couldn't play his own Elspeth because of my totally random Phyrexian Revoker on "Noble Hierarch" in Turn 2, which payed me later in the game by screwing his mana when he really needed it.
Round 3 vs. Smallpox 1:1 draw
My opponent is a good friend of mine and we both are the only people with 2:0. We decide to draw and play for fun.
I lost this match 1:2 and i have to say that this matchup is a real grind. If you can stick a planeswalker or more than 2 creatures against Pox, you are pretty safe. It sounds easy, but it isn't. In the end, the win is a matter of topdecks, which i lost eventually.
Round 4 vs. Goblin Bombardement 2:1
This guy plays a really strange token-based combo deck, which uses Spontaneous Generation, Fecundity and Goblin Bombardment to kill you really fast.
G1, i won easy with double wastelanding his Duals and landing a Thalia.
G2, i was stuck with 6 black cards in my hand without finding a black source after several turns. He comboes me around turn 5
G3 was really grindy again. I could get ahead with Phyrexian Revoker on his Bombardements and a Sword of War and Peace which dealt him 6-7 extra dmg per hit.
Of course such a small tournament is not representative at all, but maybe it could be helpful material for those of you considering Thalia and Mirran Crusader maindeck. I am really happy with my aggressive creature build and would never play a token-based DGA over this at any point right now.
Thx for the interest about the deck. Here some statements about the cardchoices:
For bitterblossom: I tested this card and it never convinced me. Primary its a 2mana card that has no impact on the game as it comes into play - you have way better cards in the 2mana slot to play second turn or 1. turn with chrome mox. Mother of runes makes the deck faster, since it is a card that most decks HAVE to handle immediatly, if they don't want to loose vs. a protected dark confidant. Beneath that mother is a card that allows a fast flashback of cabal therapy which might be important in certain matchups. The only thing bitterblossom did in the tournaments i played was either imprint into chrome mox to cast something better OR make me loose vs. canadian with goyfs that got pumped by enchantment AND tribal...
For zealous persecution: i think its a great card in the momentary metagame - sure you can fill the slots with other cards but it was never dead when i hat it: in best cases it killed up to 2 hierarchs 1 mother and 1 thalia, in worst cases it dealt 2 dmg more with lingering souls (beneath that it's always funny to see enemy faces "fall down" that play enchantress, which gets killed by the persecution :-) (of course there are some matchups whare it will be boarded out but i think there are much more mu's, where it facerolls the enemy...
For the second Jitte: Thats 1 choice i would neverever take back. In nearly every matchup the Jitte wins the game and even with a drawn second one its normally no problem to have it in your hand, since the 1 on dhe board wins the game alone.
For the 2 Lilianas: I'd rather have a 3 one since the card is just great but i just don't have enough place :-)
Now for the sideboard!
Perish clearly over dystopia. It kills elves and it does not loose to qasali pride-mage while 1-2 knights kill you...
For the oblivion rings: you are certainly right that the angel provides you with a clock vs. show and tell but oblivion ring is much more flexible - you can board it in vs. miracle etc., while the angel is only good for ONE matchup. (beneath that i dislike the option to take 7 dmg via dark confidant, even vs. omnishow...)
I think there are two directions in which DGA is developing. On the one hand the more agressive creature build with - sometimes - vials and on the other hand the slightly more controlly token-build. Both have their flaws. I think it depends on your own preferences and playstyle, which kind you chose. I for example like to win mid- or lategame. Just because it´s a good feeling to literally take over controle. And because playing agressive decks feel very head-throug-wallish to me. Again, just my very humble opinion.
Despite this quite opposing decks, I hope for a few nice cards in Gatecrash. Like one of the posters before me, I´m very curious about the orzhov Charm and perhaps a new slick discard spell.
I agree with the Perish over Dystopia, mainly because it affects the board faster. Plus there aren't a ton of white/green enchantments that are devastating...it's mostly about the green creatures...
Is Mirran Crusader really better than Lingering Souls? I remember back in standard I would grab SOWP over batterskull since Crusader was in hand and going to be played next turn. Then he would get killed/countered and the entire game was ruined.
Souls resists discard, have natural evasion, and work better with liliana and cabal therapy.
Also I am assuming Vampire Nighthawk has been tried by someone. Any thoughts on it over vindicate? Both are functionally 3 drop removal.
I don't think you can compare nighthawk with vindicate... Nighthawk isn't that much removal (it can only kill creatures and can be killed itself) but a excellent equipment-carrier, while vindicate hits all permanents, but will never carry an equipment...
Some more contra for Dystopia: You don't really want to sacrifice your own white permanents (stoneforge / souls-token / Sorin (!) )
@Mirran Crusader: Personally, I always preferred Phyrexian Crusader considering the static Pro R/W means that not only will it punch through KotR/Mom/Goblins but is also immune to the major forms of removal in this format: burn/StP. Albeit green creatures are still a problem as are counters, however being pro-removal as well as deal with Gobos and KotR all day is nothing at which to snuff. I'm not particularly advocating either to be run over LS, however, Phyrexian seems to have more benefits. Albeit the Infect is quite annoying, however when running SFM variants a Crusader + equip can mean a 2-3 turn clock.
@ Dystopia: I'm not sure what MU people are using this for.... honestly the only time I've ever considered this a noteworthy card was several years ago during CounterTop's prevalence when Enchantress still liked to appear in tournaments. Dystopia is an excellent card choice against Enchantress as the Upkeep cost is essentially negligble. That having been said, with the amount of burn, with the lack of Enchantress, as well as the newer pool of cards to choose from, I hardly see any reason to be running Dystopia in a SB anymore.
ForlornEgoist
How to play Belcher:
Step 1) Draw 7 cards.
Step 2) Throw said 7 cards onto the table while making a "BLAH!" sound.
Step 3) Hold up hands quizically and ask: "Do I win?"
Decks
Enchantress
Dragon Stompy
Rock
UG Madness/Thresh (Pauper)
Just got my foiled playset of Deathrite shaman, so its time to experiment with them. Do think im gonna run 4 shamans and 2 moxes.
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