[Deck] Elves Combo

[nudon]

Sorry if it has been answered already, but what are the advantages of playing Natural Order instead of just playing Mirror Entity? I can imagine the miracle matchup getting better, but I haven't seen that deck in a long time.

Miracles just won scg vegas this past weekend actually. With craterhoof behemoth, mirror entity is no longer needed as the win-con. Behemoth can be found via gsz and natural order, unlike mirror entity. Also, it opens up the option of natural order into progenitus post-board against control/aggro.

A lot of decks right now are running discard, and that's really bad for setting up Glimpse of Nature combo turns. Natural Order gives the deck a two-card combo which is much easier to draw into than Glimpse + creatures.

More importantly, counter-magic is really light in the metagame right now. Thus, natural order into regal force becomes a very important play instead of a potentially 2 for 1 against us.

[Zombie]

Do you guys find yourselves going for the Priest at all? Thinking of trying a Pod or a Pridemage main for some actual interaction (This message is brought to you by Jitte Haters Inc.)

[Kuma]

Sorry if it has been answered already, but what are the advantages of playing Natural Order instead of just playing Mirror Entity? I can imagine the miracle matchup getting better, but I haven't seen that deck in a long time.

Aside from the raw power of Craterhoof Behemoth, mid-combo you can also use it to get elves you need. I've saved games because I used Natural Order to get a Nettlewood Sentinel or Heritage Druid.

[Mr. Froggy]

Is Horizon Canopy still needed for this deck? (G/w version)

[nudon]

Do you guys find yourselves going for the Priest at all? Thinking of trying a Pod or a Pridemage main for some actual interaction (This message is brought to you by Jitte Haters Inc.)

Priest is amazing against combo or decks without much removal. Just the other day, I was able to fight through a blood moon with only a deathrite shaman and 1 fetch in the gy by gsz-ing for priest. I combo'ed out the following turn. I would run viridian shaman over pridemage main since it still helps the combo and is recurrable with symbiote.

Aside from the raw power of Craterhoof Behemoth, mid-combo you can also use it to get elves you need. I've saved games because I used Natural Order to get a Nettlewood Sentinel or Heritage Druid.

It can also grab hate pieces like gaddock teeg.

Is Horizon Canopy still needed for this deck? (G/w version)

It's not needed but I like running 1 in the G/B/w build since I have a 2/2 cradle-rotation split. There are many scenarios (especially mid-combo or grindy late games) where rotating into horizon canopy helps more than a cradle.

[Mr. Froggy]

Also, there's one card I've never really understood; Mortarpod.

When do you side it in? Since we usually only run it as a one-of, I don't see it being of much use. And its non-tutorable, so I don't see much value in it.

I ran it in my MTGO list, but never knew why, lol.

Can someone explain? :)

[nudon]

Also, there's one card I've never really understood; Mortarpod.

When do you side it in? Since we usually only run it as a one-of, I don't see it being of much use. And its non-tutorable, so I don't see much value in it.

I ran it in my MTGO list, but never knew why, lol.

Can someone explain? :)

You bring it in against grim lavamancer, goblin sharpshooter, moat, peacekeeper (doubt anyone runs this), and dredge. However, this only applies to non-black versions since abrupt decay handles most of those problems as well as counterbalance (biggest problem for elves). Pridemage/sliver take care of moat and there are many options against dredge. It's pretty safe to cut unless you're not running black.

[TraxDaMax]

Mortarpod is main for me, it lets you win without needing to attack, and that has won me tons of games. /waves at Moat and Ensnarring Bridge.

I'll have to watch some streams and playtest N.O. Years ago I found it to be pretty weak, but perhaps the behemoth really changes that.

[MD.Ghost]

Do you guys find yourselves going for the Priest at all? Thinking of trying a Pod or a Pridemage main for some actual interaction (This message is brought to you by Jitte Haters Inc.)

I cut Priest, because it is one of the weakest (summoning sickness, 1/19) creatures and in the past i always side it out game 2/3.
I use the Priest Slot for a Scavenging Ooze, which works great - more ways to interact, great single beater and always nice comeback, if your opponent has tons of removal.

I also play a maindeck Pridemage (but only 1 Crop Rotation), so i have a game 1 answer for random enchantments or annoying artifacts like jitte.

[Mr. Froggy]

I always thought Priest was one of the weakest cards too, but to me the honor goes to Quirion Ranger.

I only run 2 and it's always the first thing I side out, against virtually everything.

For now I run something like this:

4x Llanowar
4x Fyndhorn

(I think we can agree to this being the "core" 24, so I propose that we replace these with just "core" when posting decklists, like Gobolord proposed for Goblins. This way it makes reading decklists much more concise. If you have to remove a card from these 24, you just write Core: -1 Nettle.)

4x Heritage
4x Nettle
4x Wirewood
4x Visionary
4x Glimpse
4x Zenith

3x Priest
2x Ranger
1x Archdruid
1x Shaman
1x Behemoth
1x Crop Rotation
1x Regal Force

1x Dryad
1x Cradle
1x Canopy
13x Forest

Now I apologize if I'm missing anything, I wrote all this from my phone since my gf's computer sucks balls.

Thoughts on my list?

[Reagens]

Mortarpod is main for me, it lets you win without needing to attack, and that has won me tons of games. /waves at Moat and Ensnarring Bridge.

I'll have to watch some streams and playtest N.O. Years ago I found it to be pretty weak, but perhaps the behemoth really changes that.

Behemoth did really change that.
In addition because it has haste in itself and gives the all important trample to all creatures you can win on the spot. (you need about 2 creatures without summoning sickness which should be easy by turn 3)
Although moat and ensnaring bridge would still make you lose game 1 (unless you have had some beatdown and deathrite can finish off) I think those cards are so rare now (MD) that it doesn't pay to have a MD answer for them.
I have been testing a lot lately and trying to find a free spot for a gamebreaking card (Ezuri, Elvish champion,...) but I always end up with the more or less standard list without those cards. Worst case scenario I draw my behemoth during the game and it gets discarded/countered. In that particular case I am going empty the warrens on them and hope it sticks.
With 4 wirewood and 4 quirion ranger DRS can be quite a machine gun when enough sorcey/instants are available.

Regarding priest of titania. I can understand why he looks so tempting to cut. He gets killed every single time before I can use him and that's the reason why I keep him in. He really is that good and that much of a threat. Your opponents HAVE to kill him every single time. None of the alternatives suggested in this thread warrant the same in my opinion.

[Zombie]

I always thought Priest was one of the weakest cards too, but to me the honor goes to Quirion Ranger.

I only run 2 and it's always the first thing I side out, against virtually everything.

For now I run something like this:

4x Llanowar
4x Fyndhorn

(I think we can agree to this being the "core" 24, so I propose that we replace these with just "core" when posting decklists, like Gobolord proposed for Goblins. This way it makes reading decklists much more concise. If you have to remove a card from these 24, you just write Core: -1 Nettle.)

4x Heritage
4x Nettle
4x Wirewood
4x Visionary
4x Glimpse
4x Zenith

3x Priest
2x Ranger
1x Archdruid
1x Shaman
1x Behemoth
1x Crop Rotation
1x Regal Force

1x Dryad
1x Cradle
1x Canopy
13x Forest

Now I apologize if I'm missing anything, I wrote all this from my phone since my gf's computer sucks balls.

Thoughts on my list?

I think the list is the reason Quirion Ranger seems weak to you - the card only truly shines with a Dryad Arbor on the board, IMHO, and you have no fetches to grab Arbor. With an Arbor, Ranger can do all manner of nasty things even in low-resource situations (especially true in the "Dear God why do Elves cost 1k nowadays" NO builds).
But without consistent access to Arbor, I'd say lower numbers are a good idea.

I'd perhaps cut a mana dork to make room for a Mortarpod.
Do you have NO on the list? Or is it just Zenith, Glimpse? With that kind if setup with lots of Priests I think Living Wish might be pretty damn good. They're cheap, give access to Cradle and Bog and whatnot from the board, and your huge Priest count seems pretty amazing for Wishing for Ezuri and the like. You can easily pack an Emrakul in the board to win vs. Moat and a Viridian Zealot to kill enchantments. I don't think I'd run Elves without Wish or NO nowadays. Just too good to not play.

[flrn]

Deathrite Shaman is the Main reason, why Quirion Ranger is 4-off in the Gbw lists. He goes completly bonkers, with multiple effects to untap him. That's why Quirion Ranger is not as good in a monocolour list without Deathrite Shaman/Fetchies, because the extra mana, which you get from Quirion Ranger is not worth the slot, because mana is hardly an issue. But being able to activate the lifeloss ability of Deathrite Shaman multiple times is actually insane.

[LeoCop 90]

Regarding priest of titania. I can understand why he looks so tempting to cut. He gets killed every single time before I can use him and that's the reason why I keep him in. He really is that good and that much of a threat. Your opponents HAVE to kill him every single time. None of the alternatives suggested in this thread warrant the same in my opinion.

I agree that priest is a card to absolutely remove for the opponent, but I'm thinking to run Elvish Archdruid over him. Reagens and other said that are willling to put a gamebreaking card in their lists like Ezuri or Elvish Champion ; In my experience, when i'm not able to combo off, the only way to win is to beat down with elves and deathrite shaman ability, or cast a natural order. Green sun's zenith often won't be able to fetch a Behemot or Regal force . So what if we don't have natural order and can't combo off ? Running a gamebreaking card that can be easily fetched with zenith could allow us to win fast also this kind of games, and i Think that the card could be elvish archdruid because it acts both as a lord and as a priest of titania. Do you think the castin mana cost of three (instead of the two of priest) can really be an issue?

Deathrite Shaman is the Main reason, why Quirion Ranger is 4-off in the Gbw lists. He goes completly bonkers, with multiple effects to untap him. That's why Quirion Ranger is not as good in a monocolour list without Deathrite Shaman/Fetchies, because the extra mana, which you get from Quirion Ranger is not worth the slot, because mana is hardly an issue. But being able to activate the lifeloss ability of Deathrite Shaman multiple times is actually insane.

I'm not completely sure of this. I admit that i built the deck recently, but in my testing often happened that having a llanowar elf instead of a deathrite would have been better. Running 8 untap effects ( quirion and symbiote ) we can really generate crazy amounts of mana with llanowars,sometimes enough to fetch a craterhoof through zenith, while deathrite often runs out of targets. I agree that his lifeloss ability give reach to our deck, but i make this question to more experienced players : do you really think that the games we grind out due to deathrite can compensate the times when having a llanowar elf and quirions/symbiotes just would allow us to win? (consider also that playing deathrite forces us to play A LOT of fetches so we are vulnerable to stifle , we must cut utility lands like pendelhaven not to mention the life loss fetching)

[Reagens]

I agree that priest is a card to absolutely remove for the opponent, but I'm thinking to run Elvish Archdruid over him. Reagens and other said that are willling to put a gamebreaking card in their lists like Ezuri or Elvish Champion ; In my experience, when i'm not able to combo off, the only way to win is to beat down with elves and deathrite shaman ability, or cast a natural order. Green sun's zenith often won't be able to fetch a Behemot or Regal force . So what if we don't have natural order and can't combo off ? Running a gamebreaking card that can be easily fetched with zenith could allow us to win fast also this kind of games, and i Think that the card could be elvish archdruid because it acts both as a lord and as a priest of titania. Do you think the castin mana cost of three (instead of the two of priest) can really be an issue?

I did not test Archdruid yet and it might be possible that he is worth the extra mana. I'm looking forward to seeing your test results but as for now I'm skeptical and quite convinced the 1 mana does make a big difference.
Where is completely disagree though is that when you combo off gsz into behemoth or natural order into behemoth shouldn't be that difficult. You should be generating tons of mana and if not 4 mana should be the absolute minimum when comboing off thus bringing NO online. That's the biggest advantage of natural order anyway. You don't need to go full combo. Sometimes you just dump your hand, natural order into behemoth and win on the spot.

[nudon]

I agree that priest is a card to absolutely remove for the opponent, but I'm thinking to run Elvish Archdruid over him. Reagens and other said that are willling to put a gamebreaking card in their lists like Ezuri or Elvish Champion ; In my experience, when i'm not able to combo off, the only way to win is to beat down with elves and deathrite shaman ability, or cast a natural order. Green sun's zenith often won't be able to fetch a Behemot or Regal force . So what if we don't have natural order and can't combo off ? Running a gamebreaking card that can be easily fetched with zenith could allow us to win fast also this kind of games, and i Think that the card could be elvish archdruid because it acts both as a lord and as a priest of titania. Do you think the castin mana cost of three (instead of the two of priest) can really be an issue?



I'm not completely sure of this. I admit that i built the deck recently, but in my testing often happened that having a llanowar elf instead of a deathrite would have been better. Running 8 untap effects ( quirion and symbiote ) we can really generate crazy amounts of mana with llanowars,sometimes enough to fetch a craterhoof through zenith, while deathrite often runs out of targets. I agree that his lifeloss ability give reach to our deck, but i make this question to more experienced players : do you really think that the games we grind out due to deathrite can compensate the times when having a llanowar elf and quirions/symbiotes just would allow us to win? (consider also that playing deathrite forces us to play A LOT of fetches so we are vulnerable to stifle , we must cut utility lands like pendelhaven not to mention the life loss fetching)

Lord effects are generally better when you're trying to beat them down instead of comboing. However, having the option to NO into behemoth to win or regal force to replenish your hand likely makes lord-effects unnecessary. Priest really shines against decks without removal, you can gsz (3 mana) to get it on turn 2. It's much harder to do this with archdruid. Also, priest is nuts in the mirror matchup.

Deathrite shaman is the best thing to happen to elves in a LONG time... He makes the reanimator matchup so much better (traditionally horrendous) and gives us a great late game in grindy games. His 2 toughness blocks goblin lackeys like a champ and he even survives darkblast/zealous perscution/e. plague. Playing a few more fetches usually isn't going to matter because we're probably going to want access to black or white anyways for sb options. I also run 2 crop rotations to find my cradles (or horizon canopy/bog/karakas), which also turns on deathrite shaman's mana ability. Running canopy works pretty well since it turns on deathrite too.

Side note about quirion ranger: multiple life drain/gain in a turn is awesome but the main reason why he's a 4-of is because the number of basic forests has decreased to 1/2 due to deathrite shaman. Ranger protects our bayous/savannahs from wasteland.

[Mr. Froggy]

I cut a Priest for Ezuri (I'm running MonoG for now), and I'm not missing her at all right now. I just wish Ezuri's ability cost X instead of 2GGG, a la Entity. :P

[BiggestLegacyPlayerAlive]

Cutting Priest is wrong, like some people have said before they have to kill it therefore protecting your other elves, and if they don't kill it, you win on the spot. Cutting Priest for Elvish Archdruid is also bad, turn 2 Green sun's for priest is a really strong play, turn 3 green sun's for 3 is painful just to type let alone actually play. You should be winning turn three not getting a 2/2 that does nothing until your next turn. There is nothing beyond winning(which requires an absurdly good hand) that is a better turn 2 play than green sun's for priest. There are a lot of things I would rather be doing on turn three than getting an archdruid(mainly winning). If you want an elf to improve your beats play elvish champion.

In regards to quirion ranger, it might be the second best card in our deck. It untaps priest and creatures for rangers and druid, it saves our manabase from wasteland, it prevents combat damage from happening with Dryad Arbor(SOOO good vs Jitte), lets you recast your one land after keeping a one lander. The utility this creature provides is second to none, and if it wasn't for wirewood symbiote bouncing visionary and saving our elves from removal, would be the best card in our deck.

[danyul]

LOL god. I've been playing Elves a longass time and after hopping around to different decks and looking at different threads I noticed something cray cray:

In every other thread, people work to make the deck better.

In the Elves thread, we just work to keep people from making the deck worse.

Love it.

[Reagens]

LOL god. I've been playing Elves a longass time and after hopping around to different decks and looking at different threads I noticed something cray cray:

In every other thread, people work to make the deck better.

In the Elves thread, we just work to keep people from making the deck worse.

Love it.

If this is considered backseat modding please delete but I just wanted to say that for me it makes sense to have a seperate thread for the mono-G elves. I think there is virtually no discussion whatsoever that Bgw elves are the best version of Elves! and main discussion points are 1-2 slots maindeck (if any really) and SB + SB strategy. I understand not everyone can have the resources to have the best possible iteration of a deck but I don't think the DTB section is meant to discuss suboptimal versions of decks because of budget constraints. It clogs the thread with less than useful information and in no way improves on the deck.

OT though.
Tested against BUG control yesterday and chose the following SB strategy:

- 2 quirion ranger
- 1 priest of titania
- 1 lianowar elves
- 1 heritage druid

+ 1 natural order
+ 1 progenitus
+ 1 wilt-lief liege
+ 1 harmonic sliver (afraid of engineered plague)
+ 1 scavenging ooze

Testing results were less then stellar.
I had a lot of issues drawing into fatties but not into order and since the games were rather long I think that drawing progenitus (or one of the other 2 fatties) became too much of an issue and hampered me at critical points in the game.
I know the common consensus is boarding in cabal therapy and I was wondering what other peoples experiences are and what they think is key in the match-up.
Since this particular version of BUG had a lot of -1/-1 removal (darkblast among others) I wondered if wilt-lief is worth his slot or not. Apart from Jace's bounce or Liliana sac ability they have no removal to get rid of him and I think it renders a lot of their removal next to useless.