[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[Dark Ritual]

Played this deck to a terrible 0-2 drop at SCG KC yesterday. Biggest problem? Never being able to find entomb in time. Ponder is infinitely better than careful study in this deck. When I ran careful study for about a week with 4 griselbrand's it wasn't even close to consistent in terms of binning griselbrand. Ponder see's 4 cards, study see's 2 and is card disadvantage on top of that if you don't find/have a griselbrand in hand.

Also, I feel the best answer for countertop is to run reverent silence and/or abrupt decay. Their deck is close to impossible to beat for us when they have gravehate, countertop, and countermagic to back it all up.

Probe was pretty decent, but at the same time cutting it makes room for lim-dul's vault, a card that this deck sorely needs in my eyes in order to find the right combo pieces/entomb almost always. Card is also a champ when imprinted on a mox.

As for my decklist, it's Koby's list -1 chrome mox +1 tundra. Sideboard was almost identical to his as well. I put in the tundra over mox because drawing mox in the opener is generally terrible. Wanted two white sources for children and more silences in the board because against the decks you want silence against they generally have wasteland or you want to be able to silence two times in one turn. Like RUG delver, as silence is godly against them or esper stoneblade. I might run this deck once more with something like -2 Probe -1 Ponder +3 LDV, but this requires testing. At the moment I'm going back to ANT, as ANT has no consistency issues when you run 16 cantrips to assemble your combo.

[Koby]

@Dark Ritual
Were the decks you faced had any impact on trying to find the combo? Did you face much disruption like discard, counters, or Wasteland?
The consistency issues are somewhat expected; and I somewhat agree with -1 Probe -1 Chrome Mox +2 LDV for more digging, while also bumping up to 14 lands. I'm sad to hear the deck didn't work out for you. Did you have much familiarity going into those matchups with which hands to keep?
Basically - Need more info

[.dk]

I'm actually back on 1x Intuition at the moment for the same reason, although it's very possible that 2xLDV is better. Might try running a bit with 1xIntuition, 1xLDV and see how often I wish Intuition was LDV.

Koby - how has Serenity been working for you out of the sideboard? Have you been able to successfully resolve it the turn before you combo often enough?

[Koby]

Not much testing recently. It's hard to find a matchup where Serenity is necessary. I've mostly faced BUG and Jund, neither of which run many permanent forms of g/y hate.

[phazonmutant]

I haven't had much time for testing either, but just got these in!


It may not be good, but it sure looks sweet. So the advantage for T-Money's Reich is CB might have a harder time countering 3s postboard and it deals proactively with hatebears if they find them or enchantments if they find those, but I'm not convinced it's worth the increased casting difficulty.
The problem with Abrupt Decay (besides making the mana worse) is that you really have to kill both Counterbalance and Rest in Peace going late. They have more hate to find than you have AD, so it just doesn't work.

Serenity is probably better against Enchantress and Prison? The reich is better against any decks that have hatebears plus some other form of permanent hate or possibly as a way to phase out their lands to stop counterspells?

So Abrupt Decay, Serenity, and Teferi's Realm all have their uses and maybe a split is warranted. I think Teferi's Realm plays best with Needle for Enchantress and Maverick and Chain of Vapor for Miracles, so I think it has the best holistic sideboard utility.

[jbone2016]

Somebody in KC mentioned something amusing......cloudshift.
Just in case you need to keep your Griselbees around.

[Zubba]

Hi new to these forums and to the deck but i have almost always played combo in legacy so i would not say i'am have no clue what i'am doing.
Just wanted to post in here and say that this deck is alot of fun and reminds me of my old Necrotic Ooze combo deck with buried alive ect.
I played the deck this weekend in 1 small Legacy tournament with only 25 people or so, in sweden we normally don't get that big legacy tournaments if you don't have them at big conventions.
Well it was my first real torunament with the deck went 3-1-1 to get into top 8.
i don't have any real report exept i know wich decks i played against.

Win 2-1 vs Foodchain combo (FoW, MD, Faeire Macabre, Surgical and Spell peirce)

Win 2-1 vs UR Delver (Surgical, FoW, Spell peirce, Daze)

Lost 1-2 Elves Combo (Deathrite Shaman Bojuka Bog with Crop Rotation and Toughtseize)

Win 2-0 Deadguy( Inquisition, Duress, Tormods Crypt, Deathrite Shaman)

Draw in the last round

Top 8

Won 2-1 vs High Tide (Normal High Tide all the counters in the universe and Cuning Wish after Surgical)

Lost 0-2 Vs Deadguy(Same as the one i won with 2-0)

the deck performed pretty well but i had to take mulligans alot and in the semi the deck just went no not today on me and i had to mull to 5 and 6.
The hands before thoose where not even close to keeps and i just had to throw them back.
The wierd thing was i flooded alot and almost all the losses i had was to me drawing like 5 lands or more i even managed to hardcast Griselbrand one game with 1 Dark Ritual, 1 Lotus Petal and lands.
I'am 100% sure this was just a fluke becuse i was only running 13 lands the decklist was this.

4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeanceimate
4 Entomb
3 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Children of Korlis
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Silence
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea

// Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Silence
2 Pull from Eternity
3 Pithing Needle
1 Wipe Away
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Massacre
1 Serenity

[phazonmutant]

Zubba - congrats on the finish! You point out a problem that really has been the major complaint with the deck throughout its development - it just sometimes does nothing.

So here's a couple different ways to look at the consistency problem, ways we've tried to fix it, and some possible solutions.
It seems like people are pretty much going off of Koby's list (which was a good list!), but I think we've subsequently shown that there's some small tweaks to help with consistency, and it's frustrating that people seem to be ignoring them and then complaining that the deck doesn't do anything.

What we've done in the past:

• Obviously before Children of Korlis, we had a lot of trouble killing them even when we comboed off. So .dk started playing Children as a 2-of and an Intuition and that fixed pretty much all the issues.
• When I was testing for SCG Atlanta, I noticed a couple things - Chrome Mox sucks, and it didn't make sense that we were only playing 7 reanimation spells when traditional reanimator plays 10. So I added 2 Reanimates and cut Chrome Mox to 2. That list still had consistency issues (lost a couple games in SCG to drawing bricks).
• CalebD took the list and I think hurt its consistency in his list but helped us realize the sideboard S&T isn't necessary.
• Koby started testing and we noticed that there just wasn't enough velocity, so we added Gitaxian Probe. Probe was chosen to keep speed up, Preordain slows the deck way down. We did end up cutting Intuition, though. That's what he placed second with. People have been playing his list and doing mediocrely.

What have we done to help fix those changes?

• After SCG Vegas, more testing has shown we only need 1 Emrakul, 2 Griselbrand, 1 Children and 1 Tendrils. Chrome Mox also sucks to draw multiples of, so 1 of that is fine too. The bottleneck is still ins, so .dk and I have been playing Intuition again and been happy with it.

Ok, so why am I advocating those changes? This seems pretty obvious to me, but people keep ignoring what I'm saying so I guess it's not obvious to everyone.

• In a combo deck, you want to minimize dead draws. 90% of the time, you don't want to draw Children, Emrakul, Griselbrand, Tendrils, or Chrome Mox. So why play multiple if you can still easily go off without multiples?!
• This deck is as much a reanimator deck as it is a storm deck (duh!). That means you're trying to find a 2-card combo. As anyone who's played Reanimator or Show and Tell before will tell you, sometimes your deck does stone nothing and you draw bricks and you want to kill yourself and light your deck on fire.

The biggest reason I've personally noticed for the deck not doing anything is keeping bad hands. This deck can mulligan to 4 cards and win on turn 1. Reanimator has always mulliganed well. If you're having trouble with consistency, goldfish a lot and figure out what hands you can keep and how low you can mulligan. This is my biggest weakness with TinFins and the majority of the games I lose are to questionable keeps.

So if any of y'all complain about consistency and I see 2 Children of Korlis or 2 Chrome Mox in your decklist without some explanation for why I'm wrong, I'm going to be grumpy.

[.dk]

^^ This.

[LMental]

What's the current list look like, then? There's more room, so what should be in those slots? (Well, actually, there's only one more slot, if we count one as filled by the Intuition.) And how's the SB?

[phazonmutant]

What's the current list look like, then? There's more room, so what should be in those slots? (Well, actually, there's only one more slot, if we count one as filled by the Intuition.) And how's the SB?

The deck is your oyster!
Options include: (brace yourself)
Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, Silence, Lim-Dul's Vault, Intuition, Reanimte #2, Goryo's Vengeance #4, Griselbrand 3-4, land #14, and if you really want to get crazy, Preordain, Careful Study.

I can come up with reasonable arguments for all of those cards. There are probably more besides these that make some sense.
I'm still testing around variations of the list I posted here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post711485
That's just my take on it, though.


I talked about the sideboard just a few short scrollwheel rotations up (right under the purty Teferi's Realms).


Update on Gemstone Mine:
I tried playing 8 fetches, 2 basics and no Mines in some matches. I screwed myself fetching for basics 4 out of 4 times. I definitely don't like the basic Island and I felt a little sketchy on W sources, so I'm just going back to 2 Mines.

[walker]

@ phazon - I agree with you about the other cards, but Griselbrand is not considered a dead draw because you can discard him from your hand. 2 copies seems like an arbitrary number. If you're relying on entomb to combo why not play 1 griselbrand, and duress over thoughtsieze?

I'm glad my recommendation of gitaxian probe and cabal therapy has been working out for so many players. Both cards are great on there own and can be an absolute blowout when combined. I think they are both better in lists running 4 griselbrand though. (Probe because you are more likely to have a natural turn 1 hand, and probe checks if the coast is clear. Therapy obviously because it bins griselbrand). I guess my testing has provided a different result.

@ koby - We didn't really get a chance to chat in depth yesterday, but the reason I think this deck is a sub-optimal choice is because of the sideboard. Overall I think most of the current maindecks are playable (obviously I still think 4 griselbrand is correct), but I put this deck down for good (for tournament play at least) until I can play a sideboard I'm confident with. I'm not sold on the anti-hate route, the show and tell route, or any of the transformational options. If this ever changes I will pick it up again with glee and I pray that day comes. Until then I'm tendrilsing without griselbrand :/

@ dark rit - You're right, careful study is crap in this deck, every other cantrip is better. Can't be said enough. No version of this deck runs the critical mass of creatures study requires. The only time I can think of careful study being useful is when you put it on the stack and then cast LDV to find creature.

[Zubba]

@phazonmuant

Thanks for the kind words and yes i know my decklist was a little off atleast after playing a tournament with it there are some changes i would make.
I wasent trying to point out that the deck was bad becuse i had to mull alot or anything like that it's a combo deck and sometimes you just don't do anyting thats the nature of thoose decks.
Then again you can trade speed for consistancy if thats what you wanna do me and a friend has been playing Ooze combo for some time in legacy and i think i will look to that list to see if i can get any info from that deck to improve this one i know they are diffrent decks but in alot of way they are the same they wanna get things into the graveyard and win the same turn.
This deck has been tuned for over 1 year buy some of the best legacy players in sweden so i would say it's tuned okey with some cards moving in and out depending on meta ect.
I'am only posting this to inspire and maybe see if some of you veterans of Tin fins can see anything that can be good to convert from this deck to Tin fins. Reason we dropped it was becuse of Deathrite shaman you can't play around it if they know what they are doing in the same way you can with Tin fins for example.

This is the decklist

Maindeck

1 Aquamoeba
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Triskelion
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Personal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Buried Alive
4 Thoughtseize
4 Reanimate
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
2 Shallow Grave
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lim-Dul’s Vault
4 Lotus Petal
2 Underground Sea
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Swamp
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire

Sideboard

1 Echoing Truth
3 Helm of Obedience
4 Show and Tell
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Leyline of the Void

Now i did see that you had started playing Intuition as a 1 of in Tin fins We played 4 in this deck for along time but after testing Lim dul we changed to that, it's 1 turn faster and it doesnt fold to Surgical ect sure they still shuffel your library if they target something else but atleast you don't lose the card you where looking for it's still in your deck.
Reason we dident play it from start was becuse it was card disadvantage but after testing we relised that dident do anything becuse we would just go of that turn anyway.
This deck works the same way you find what you want and win so i think Lim dul is better then intuition the only part i don't like is the life loss wich is a much worse drawback in Tin fins then Ooze combo.
What do you guys think Lim-Dul or Intuition? Both would ad alot of consistancy to deck without slowing it down alot you don't have to play 4 or anything like that 1-3 would be fine.

This is the decklist of Tin fins i have been working on after the weekend and plan on playing at a big 100+ Legacy tournament this weekend and then bring it to GP Strasbourg ofc there could be changes to the decklist.

2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Children of Korlis
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Entomb
2 Intuition // Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate
1 Silence
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Polluted Delta
3 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Island

// Sideboard

2 Chain of Vapor
2 Teferi's Realm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Massacre
2 Pull from Eternity
2 Silence
1 Wipe Away
2 Surgical Extraction

This is very close to phazonmuant decklist and for alot of reasons i liked it alot when looking at it!
Teferi's Realm has been a BEAST in the test games my and my friend did last night we tested vs Elves/Mud and Stoneblade.
VS mudd it was the card that allowed me to win after chalice on 1 and a Trinisphere., played it and won on my next turn. But was also good vs Elves dunno if you should really bring it in there but it did some work taking away his lands so he couldent crop rotation.
It's slow but deals with everything exept the spells that can screw you up so i think it should be in the sideboard.
Also wanna test Grand Abolisher it's dubbel white but i think it's doable, anyone tested it so far?

[.dk]

Haven't tested Grand Abolisher yet, but it's on my to do list. Seems like it could be strong in some matches, however it doesn't deal with Rest in Peace. If you're in a meta of Nihil Spellbomb, Tormod's Crypt, and Surgical Extraction though, it seems excellent.

[phazonmutant]

@ phazon - I agree with you about the other cards, but Griselbrand is not considered a dead draw because you can discard him from your hand. 2 copies seems like an arbitrary number. If you're relying on entomb to combo why not play 1 griselbrand, and duress over thoughtsieze?

You're right it's not strictly a dead draw - you can bin it, you can hardcast it, etc. But almost always, I have to spend my disruption on my opponent and I'm unhappy to draw Griselbrand. That's why I'm personally a fan of 2 Griselbrand. There is a reasonable argument for 4 though.

What do you guys think Lim-Dul or Intuition? Both would ad alot of consistancy to deck without slowing it down alot you don't have to play 4 or anything like that 1-3 would be fine.

I haven't tested Lim-Dul's Vault too much in TinFins, but the similarish Griselbrand Storm deck I played at GP Atlanta had 2. After the event I was very underwhelmed with LDV. There were just too many times I was looking for a 4-of and paid 5+ life, or they had something to mess me up, or it was going late and I couldn't wait a turn. That being said, there's a bunch of people testing LDV and liking it in TinFins so I can't discount it out of hand.

The reason I like Intuition so much better is that it doesn't require life payment and it is a combo piece by itself. Multiples could be warranted, worth testing.

[Koby]

I believe the hold-over for the 2 copies of Griselbrand was the reliance on Intuition. Two copies are required in order to properly bin one copy.

[Dick_Tator]

I went 4-2 at a local 25-player tournament tonight which landed me in fourth place, the reward for which was measly 10$. But since the tournaments cost 5$ to enter, that's still the next two tournaments payed for right there:-)

This is the deck I played:

Main Deck:

1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
3 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta

2 Griselbrand
2 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize

4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate
4 Dark Ritual

4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Silence
1 Intuition

Sideboard:

2 Serenity
2 Silence
2 Pull from Eternity
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Pithing Needle
2 Massacre
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Pact of Negation

I had made some changes to my sideboard, trying out Serenity and Pact of Negation. To make room for these, I cut my Surgical Extractions - this would prove to be a bad move...


Match Report:

Round 1: Bye. 2-0

Round 2: vs. 12 Post. 2-1

Game 1: On the play I mulled to six and kept Ponder, Dark Ritual, Entomb, Gitaxian Probe, and two lands. I then drew a Goryo's off the top of my deck and comboed off on turn 1, killing him with Griselbrand and Emrakul. 1-0

Game 2:I don't recall my hand, but he plays a Pithing Needle naming Griselbrand on turn 1. I finally find Serenity to take care of the Needle, but by then he has slowed me down long enough for him to play Ulamog and kill med with it. 1-1

Game 3: I mull to six, keeping Chrome Mox, Cabal Therapy, Dark Ritual, Griselbrand, Shallow Grave, and an arbitrary sixth card that I can't remember. I go off on turn 1.

Sideboard: - 1 x Reanimate, 1 x Silence. + 2 x Serenity.

Round 3: vs. Reanimator. 1-2

Game 1: I mull to 4 before seeing any combo pieces and eventually keep a hand of Tunda, Entomb, Ponder, and Brainstorm. He has the nuts and gets a Griselbrand into play on turn 2. 0-1

Game 2: I keep a good hand, though I honestly cannot recall what it was. I go of on turn 2 or 3.

Game 3: We both mull to 5 and on the draw I keep a hand of 2 x Entomb, 2 x Shallow Grave, and a Gitaxian Probe. I manage to draw a land and then a ritual from my Probe the next turn, but he has a counterspell to prevent me from getting Griselbrand into play. Instead he lands Iona, names black, and rides her to victory.

Sideboard: Man I missed my Surgicals! I sided in 2 x Pact of Negation for 2 x Gitaxian Probes, but it never made a difference.

Round 4: vs. U/B/R Delver. 1-2

Nothing exciting to tell here, as I got thoroughly crushed. He played the full sets of both Daze, Force, Spell Pierce, and Misdirection main, along with Deathrite Shaman, and he boarded in Grafdigger's Cage and Surgicals. Wipe out.

Sideboard: -1 x Reanimate, 1 x Children of Korlis, 2 x Gitaxian Probe. + 2 x Silence, 2 x Chain of Vapor.

Round 5: vs. Goblins. 2-1

Game 1: On the play I mull to six and keep a hand with Dark Ritual, Goryo's, Entomb and Gitaxian Probe plus two other cards that I don't remember (no lands). My Gitaxian Probe finds nothing, but I rip a land the following turn and go off.

Game 2: I mull to four without finding a single combo piece and he is able to kill me before I get anywhere near going off.

Game 3: I draw a great hand and go off turn 1.

Sieboard:

- 4 x Gitaxian Probe. + 2 x Chain of Vapor, 2 x Massacre.

Round 6: vs. Burn. 2-0

Game 1: I keep a hand of Brainstorm, Ponder, Lotus Petal, Shallow Grave and three lands on the draw. I draw an Entomb within the next two turns and go off.

Game 2: I keep a hand of Griselbrand, Thoughtseize, Ponder, Chrome Mox, Brainstorm and two lands. I spend a couple of turns digging for an reanimate spell and finally find one.

Sideboard: - 2 x Thoughtseize. + 2 x Silence.


My conclusions: The main deck feels very solid. I never once fetched my basic Island, even when I played against decks with Wasteland. It should probably be either a Gemstone Mine or a fourth Marsh Flats. I really did not like Pact of Negation in my sideboard. I only boarded it in once, and even then I would much prefer to draw a discard spell or Silence. Serenity, on the other hand, showed some promise, even if I only got to cast it in a single game (which I lost). I'll give it another test run in next week's tournament.

[phazonmutant]

Thanks for the report dick_tator! I appreciate the description of what you kept, it's always nice to see some more data about how other people mulligan and keep. That Grixis delver deck sounds pretty interesting (although a complete pounding for our deck).

Why did you end up deciding to play 2 Children?

Edit: realized I didn't know what I was talking about with 12post. Your boarding seems fine.

[Koby]

Did end up streaming tonite, but managed to go 3-1 in the MTGO Legacy Daily Event. I beat UW Miracle, lost to Fire & Lightning (bad mulls = dead vs Red), beat RUG with some tight mulligan (Probe is clutch in this matchup to know if you can go for it), and beat ANT with superior spells (Probe/Therapy + flashback sacing Kids / Silence post board).

I was using 3 Probe and 2 LDV. LDV has been clutch so far in my testing. I used it three times tonite between 3 matches and it found what I needed within the top 5 cards easily. Brainstorm in hand + LDV is also much much better.

My list right now:

8 fetch
2 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Swamp
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul
2 Griselbrand

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Prove
2 Lim-Dul's Vault

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Silence

4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate

SB
1 Serenity (need to buy a 2nd -- didn't need it however)
2 Pull from Eternity (not using this anymore -- Silence might just be better overall)
3 Surgical Extraction (good vs ANT/TES)
2 Pithing Needle (may bump this up)
3 Chain of Vapor (been using less n less)
1 Echoing Truth (brought in vs RIP/Miracles)
1 Massacre (still has its uses vs Esper/Maverck/Junk)

My new proposed sideboard:

2 Serenity
3 Silence (1 main)
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Chain of Vapor/Echoing Truth mix
3 Pithing Needle
1 Massacre

Something odd happened today in testing -- twice I had a quick reanimation on Griselbrand and drew 21 cards, but failed to get any action. In one game I lost, as I was against Storm at 2 life; and the other against UW Miracles also at a low life total. Drawing that many cards will always find you a way to win the next turn, except unless you're pressured on board.

[Bobmans]

Something odd happened today in testing -- twice I had a quick reanimation on Griselbrand and drew 21 cards, but failed to get any action. In one game I lost, as I was against Storm at 2 life; and the other against UW Miracles also at a low life total. Drawing that many cards will always find you a way to win the next turn, except unless you're pressured on board.

I think that statistically it was better to have the 2nd Children. Before Children was added to the deck, this, happened quite often. My suggestion is cutting the 8th fetch and go 2 Children. 13 lands is working great for me. Just as Zubba said, it keeps flooding somehow.

The single island has been good for me. Against Moon/Wasteland decks it helped to dig up the Island first, then go cantrippin and fetch up the Swamp while sculpting the winning hand. That has been a solid strategy for me.

Also I really like Deathmark over Massacre. Although it doesn't answers multiples and isn't free, it does answer to green creatures to. Elves, BUG, Nic Fit. If you play it on DRS and they answer it with a counter, then it is a (also) good trade.