This is pretty unique. How have Gavony Township and Stirring Wildwood been for you in the past? I have also thought about Siriji Step on a similar note, but currently I run the depths stage combo in my vial maverick.Originally Posted by Moroklumpen
Hello, I have been meaning to post on here for quite some time but haven't had a chance. I have been playing maverick for quite sometime. I been playing a more standard gw maverick list normally. Pretty much take the vials out and add In GSZ, but with the release of tnn and spirit of the labyrinth I wanted to try a different build. The list below is more centered around using vials for spirits mostly. I been doing quite well with the GW list in my local meta, which consist of mostly counter top/miracles variants. Then with TNN now I wanted to change things up to deal with this little SOB and also include my new favorite hate creature. With TNN like many others here, I have removes Maze of ith from the deck and I also added state+ depths combo. Once creature I was surprised about when I added it originally to the deck was mirrian crusader. He has been nothing but an all star 90% of the time I play him.
Vial list
1 Noble hierarch
3 Deathrite shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 knight of the reliquary
2 stoneforge mystic
2 gaddock teeg
2 qasali pridemage
3 Thalia, guardian of thraben
3 spirit of the labyrinth
2 Mirrian crusader
4 mother of runes
4 swords to plowshares
4 aether vial
2 jitte
1 plains
1 forest
1 Bayou
1 dryad arbor
4 windswept heath
4 wasteland
4 savannah
1 karakas
1 scrubland
1 Dark Depth's
1 thespean's Stage
2 Marsh flats
1 verdant catacombs
Sideboard
3 zealous persecution
3 thought seize
2 abrupt decay
2 oblivion ring
2 choke
And I forget the last few..
My other list is with green sun's
4 Noble Hiearch's (or DRS)
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 knight of the reliquary
1 gaddock teeg
1 scryb ranger
2 qasali pridemage
3 Thalia, guardian of thraben
3 spirit of the labyrinth
2 Mirrian crusader
1 Thrun, The last Troll
1 Elspeth, knight errant
4 mother of runes
4 swords to plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 jitte (or a combo of Jitte/bskull/sword)
1 plains
1 forest
1 Bayou
1 dryad arbor
4 windswept heath
4 wasteland
4 savannah
1 karakas
1 scrubland
1 Dark Depth's
1 thespean's Stage
2 Marsh flats
1 verdant catacombs
My sideboard pre TNN was
Side board
2 choke
2 pithing needle
2 oblivion ring
2 surgical extraction
1 bojuka
1 path to exile
1 gaddock teeg
1 engineered explosives
2 ethersworn canonist
My apologies for typo's or auto corrects. I am posting this from my ipad. The mana base isn't 100% I forgot or may have some numbers off but its pretty much the same between the list. Not 100% on sideboards. My meta is mostly countertop variants, some reanimator, X blade, and sneak and show. I am pretty much the guy who either breaks out Maverick or elves in my meta and its still a surprise to some of my friends when I play them.
Why hasn't anyone built a GWu maverick build with true name nemesis yet? Turn 2 exalted progenitus seem pretty over powered.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
Without countermagic, TNN isn't all that. It gets raced by aggro, ignored by combo and dealt with by control. Playing Hierarch T1 and TNN T2 means we're not wasting them or playing a hatebear, allowing them to do whatever they want, which isn't where we want to be in legacy. Also, it makes us a lot more vulnerable to Wasteland. The decks that play TNN also play free countermagic to solve this, but when we start adding Daze and Force we're really talking about a quite different deck. I have considered a blue splash, but I'd much rather add Meddling Mage, Spell Pierce and Vendilion Clique, and the double blue on Clique is actually a serious issue.
I know! Because 4+ damage a turn is so bad. With wastes lands, spirits, cliques, mages, teegs and whatnot. It could work.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
Check reid duke's Bant, if you like TNN in a Maverick shell
I personally like that strategy, but do not consider a maverick deck, since Jace and TNN are UU
Yea, why has no one done this?! It didn't come in 4th at the first Grand Prix Nemesis was legal in, right?
In no way did I say play full out bant, jace is bad right now and the deck wants to be attacking, not protecting a planeswalker. All I am saying is maverick.....with true name nemesis. Did you follow me on that one?
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
It is when you're not interacting before turn three; there are just too many decks that put us on the back foot by then, and we're not that good at coming back when we're behind. We have limited ability to interact with the stack and with certain resolved threats. Much of our strength lies in mana denial and other preemptive disruption, and TNN doesn't really fit into that plan. You can build that deck, and it could be solid, but it'll need countermagic and cantrips, not Mother of Runes and Green Sun's Zenith.
Im not sure what deck you are playing but none is saying that you can't wasteland them turn one or whatever you need to win. I what just saying against most of the fair decks out there right now a turn 2 True name is a must counter. We don't play counter magic or real disruption until turns 2-3 so why even pretend.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
<CARDS>
3 deathrite shaman
3 mother of runes
1 sylvan safekeeper
1 birds of paradise
4 green sun zenith
4 thoughtseize
4 swords to plowshares
2 umezawa's jitte
2 qasali pridemage
2 scavenging ooze
1 gaddock teeg
1 scyrb ranger
1 life from the loam
3 spirit of the labyrinth
4 knight of the reliquary
3 savannah
2 bayou
4 wasteland
3 verdant catacomb
4 windswept heath
1 thespian's stage
1 dark depths
1 forest
1 plains
1 dryad arbor
1 karakas
1 scrubland
1 horizon canopy
Sideboard
3 thalia
2 surgical extraction
2 enlightened tutor
2 choke
1 zealous persecution
2 engineered plague
1 gaddock teeg
1 aethersworn canonist
1 bojuka bog
Here is my take on dark maverick. Note the inclusion of 3 spirit of the labyrinth in place of the sylvan libraries. My thinking is that the thoughtseizes would be put in the sb and thalia would be put out. This would make dark mavs poised and ready for an aggrresive game. Opinions and comments would be appreciated.
</CARDS>
I was commenting on the specific scenario you proposed. In a fair matchup a turn 3 TNN would be pretty good, unless they Wasteland us or bolt/plow our Hierarch in the meantime. Either would be quite likely against a fair deck, probably stranding the TNN in our hand for several turns. Also remember that fair decks are adjusting to TNN; a resolved one won't be nearly as hard to deal with as it was when it was new. Besides, aren't we pretty good against fair decks already? Will ruining our mana base for TNN really improve those matchups that much? Won't we be punished in matchups where we already struggle?
Against unfair decks you're spending three mana on something that doesn't interact or force them to interact. Sure, it's a decent clock, but so is Knight of the Reliquary, who also searches up Wasteland and Karakas if we need it, in addition to other utility. Thalia, Gaddock Teeg and Spirit of the Labyrinth actually interfere with their plans, costing less, without ruining our mana. Spirit even clocks them as effectively as TNN, and the decks you need it against the most are the ones that struggle the most to deal with creatures.
I'm not sure why you consider this an argument in your favor. If we're playing a deck where we need disruption, we really need to hit that window and land something that keeps us alive, and TNN isn't it. Decks that play TNN do so because it doesn't interfere with their disruption plan. They play free counters (and some times cheap discard), letting them drop TNN without lowering their guard. We can't take a turn off like that.We don't play counter magic or real disruption until turns 2-3 so why even pretend.
Pretty underwhelming weekend at SCG Nashville for GWb Maverick and I.
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Mother of Runes
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Noble Hierarch
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Plains
1 Forest
3 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith
Sideboard
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Crop Rotation
1 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Life from the Loam
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Oblivion Ring
List is off memory, so there might be a few typos on names.
List felt fine, I made the last minute change to Pithing Needles in the board as I saw a rather high number of Sneak/Show and Dark Depths based decks running around during the Legacy Trial on Saturday.
Mirran Crusader came in over Sylvan Library a week ago because lately I've felt Library to be too slow. Every deck in legacy (it seems) has an end-game now against us, whether it be storm, sneak/show, dark depths, tnn+equip, or something else, every deck is working towards some specific board state. Sylvan Library wasn't helping me keep pace with those kinds of strategies and Mirran Crusader has proven to be pretty solid at closing out a game quickly.
Round 1 v Dredge (1-2)
- Win game 1 with Deathrite, eat his dredger, advance the board into Stoneforge -> Jitte.
- Lose game 2 with Deathrite, he Firestorms EOT1 and Breakthroughs on turn 2.
- Lose game 3 on a mull to 4. His hand was pretty respectable though, mine was not.
Round 2 v Dredge (2-0)
- Win game 1 with t2 active Ooze.
- Win game 2 after he keeps 7, casts Faithless Looting and discards 2 Gemstone Mines - still not sure what he would've kept, but he must have been going for something like t2 Breakthrough off a Cephalid to warrant that keep.
Round 3 v UR Delver (2-0)
- Win game 1 after exhausting his hand with manadorks, mom, and thalia. Sword of Fire and Ice goes to town.
- Win game 2 after mulling to 5 and stumbling on lands, his Goblin Guide is in my favor though and helps me dig out a bit. He has the Smash to my Jitte, but floods a bit and can't keep pressure on board to push through my Maze of Ith + dudes.
Round 4 v RUG Delver (2-1)
- Lose game 1 after he leads on Delver which I swords t1. He wastelands and stifles my next fetch and I stumble a bit trying to get my mana together, fortunately he doesn't play a threat for a few turns, but unfortunately neither do I. He blind flips a delver eventually and rides it to victory.
- Win game 2 after my Thoughtseize sees Trop, Waste, Waste, Fire//Ice, FoW, Stifle. I take the Fire//Ice then bait the FoW with a Mother. I surgical his wasteland and hit both the one I knew he had and an extra that he drew.
- Win game 3 after Life from the Loam just takes over.
Round 5 v UWR DelverBlade (1-2)
- Lose game 1 when he goes Stoneforge->Batterskull, I go for Swords on Stoneforge and get him to FoW. He drops the Batterskull and I GSZ for Pridemage to take care of it. He then follows up with TNN and I can't get enough pressure to race it.
- Win game 2 when I Pithing Needle his Stoneforge->Batterskull and get an active Jitte. Mother clears the way of removal and Mirran Crusader smashes his face with a Jitte on it.
- Lose game 3 when he leads on delver, flips it, and tempos me a bit. From there a TNN comes down to lock up the board and it's a quick game.
Round 6 v Merfolk (1-2)
- Win game 1 with Sword of Fire and Ice.
- Lose game 2 to TNN which prevents my assault and gives him multiple turns to catch up.
- Lose game 3 after he keeps Cavern, Mutavault, FoW, 3x TNN. I Wasteland him to keep him off colored mana sources, but he's able to draw out of it and land TNN, TNN with Mutavaults to block my Sword of Fire and Ice.
At this point I just drop.
I felt like all the matchups were fine, I made a few misplays on the day, but overall felt like I was in every match. TNN is still just a pain in the ass. I was talking with my Fish opponent afterwards and mentioned that I don't bring in Zealous Persecution (at one point his board was TNN, TNN, Cursecatcher, Cursecatcher) because it's a blank against lords, instead I just have to rely on 3 Thoughtsize and 7 Removal Spells for Lords to keep the pressure down. I really do wish there was a better solution to TNN. I think I might just have to suck it up though and try to make those 7 removal spells count towards keeping ZP live.
Congrats to all the Georgia guys though this event, the local area put 4 people in the top 16 (lands, bw gate, ur delver, mud). I'll be taking a good look at the deck again and might be switching to something else for SCG Atlanta the first weekend of March.
Ill be playing punishing maverick with spirit main this weekend and I can't wait to finish better than my last performance….9th...
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
Sounds good; I'd love to see a report. Does the Spirit replace Thalia entirely, partially or not at all when you play Fire/Grove?
With all the TNN decks out there. Why are you opting to go with red as opposed to black? I also plan to put in 3 spirits in my dark maverick replacing sylvan library and 1 abrupt decay.
Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk
Punishing fire kills almost all non TNN threats in the format, beats jund, tribal, is another issue for elves to beat, Lilliana, jace, and synergies greatly with the rest of the maverick deck. Red gives me blasts to help fight TNN before he hits the table and in instances before a board wipe I find that I win the race in most cases. After a board wipe it really doesn't matter if he drops a TNN or a jace, I'm still on my back foot and am in trouble.
I am finding that I am losing to the esper TNN decks with verdicts and not the patriot lists with 1 for 1 removal.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
I've been testing a straight GW list, and keeping good records. TNN decks are slightly favorable. They're really weak without equipment and if he's blocking, that will give you some turns to establish board presence.
List:
4 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Mother of Runes
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 3 Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
Matches:
Sneak and Show = 5-4-0
BUG Delver (Tombstalker + TNN) = 4-1-0
Shardless BUG = 1-1-1
Canadian Thresh = 7-3-0
UW Miracles = 3-2-2
UWr Miracles = 3-1-1
Punishing Jund = 3-3-0
Straight Jund = 1-0-0
Merfolks = 6-1-0
43 Lands (Depths + Stage) = 2-1-1
Reanimator = 2-1-0
ANT = 4-6-0
T.E.S = 1-5-0
LED Ichorid = 3-2-0
Manaless Ichorid = 3-0-0
GW Maverick = 2-1-0
Punishing Maverick = 1-2-0
MUD = 2-3-0
Esperblade (TNN) = 4-1-0
Elves = 0-2-0
These matches were played on MWS with a friend of mine (in a two week period). Spirit has not been all that awesome, but he's good ocasionally. Combo is a really bad match, as expected. I did surprisingly well against Sneak and Show, my Karakas showed up a lot, and I always had that Knight or Oblivion Ring to SnT in. Elves is really hard, we need to get Jitte and Canonist asap to win, otherwise they'll just destroy it with Viridian Shaman and combo out next turn.
Punishing Fire is hard when they can assemble the combo early enough (by turn 2~3). Sylvan Safekeeper is working overtime, and Knight -> Wasteland should be a priority against these matches.
Path to Exile is the best card in my sideboard (by far). Every Delver deck is playing greedy non-basics manabases nowdays. Wasteland and Path really screw them over.
I've upped my Horizon Canopy to 3 (cutting 1 basic Plains and 1 Cavern of Souls). With Spirit, you can't rely on Sylvan Library, so Horizon Canopy is the next best thing (in GW). Just make sure you draw in your opponent's turn when Spirit is out.
Any comments or advice?
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
@Vandalize: I also still run a GW list, pretty standard stuff like you. No stupid Stage/Depths stuff.
My sideboard is way different though, but I'm pretty sure mine isn't optimal. My list:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons (this card is BONKERS in Maverick!) /27
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine /13
4 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Wasteland /21 //61!
Side:
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crop Rotation
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
2 Path to Exile
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant /15
So what's different and why:
1. I don't run Spirit of the Labyrinth. It seems alright, but apart from hosing Brainstorm it doesn't do much.
2. Point 1 allows me to still run 2x Sylvan Library, which is nice.
3. In the current meta, 4x Mother of Runes seems absolutely necessary. I run my Safekeeper on side.
4. I run 2x Elspeth on side, which seems really strong versus slower TNN decks.
5. My one-of Birds of Paradise is there to have an additional turn 1 play, and it carries Swords nicely. I still wanted a cheap flyer, but I cut Scryb Ranger as I felt it wasn't a big enough threat and the utility didn't have enough impact. Note you usually have to Zenith for it, which costs 3 already, and takes away the flash shenanigans. I rather have Ooze or Pridemage in like 99% of the cases.
6. My sideboard is stacked with utility guys, as you can see. They can replace guys I don't need, so my creature count stays high, but I get the utility I need postboard.
7. Crop Rotation is my trump card. I use it to fetch up Bog or Karakas when I need them, and I also board it in against Elves, where I have to be FAST, and I use it to fetch Cradle.
(8. Personal taste: it may seem weird, but I don't run Canopies. They get wasted, cost life points, and I rarely used them for card draw anyway. I rather use fetch to fill up the yard and get basics.)
I'm still on GW Zenith and have been loving Dark Depths/Thespian Stage as a 1-of. It give me an alternate win condition when the ground gets mucked up and it allows me to threaten lethal literally out of nowhere if I have an active KotR (gotta love Scryb Ranger).
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