@F.Fortune
@Lem
@Bryant
i'm just curious about that list New...,
maybe Final Fourtune won the discussion and now you all play full discard, joke?
no slience maybe then?
please let me know!
I'm not sure... first we left 4th moxen, next starting to play Gitaxian, next we left Tendrils main and now we are going to leave silence....please no. I recognize in my meta is very difficult to reach top 8 with TES do not mind, its my pet deck and just enjoy- not with ANT. and for sure discard can battle more cosistently Team America as example as Silence can not hit or Hymn or FoW. but Silence no please. anyway I've been always agree with F.F. on Full Dicascard Package but again no.! I and you all enjoy Silence, I think just puting in the cards in the Side as -2 Surgical + 2Duress can be ok an next side in the 2Duress+1T.Seize...
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hehe good job with the new list so
damned a second beta volcanic island will cost me an harm ^^
I'll let Bryant post his own list, but I'll post my list and discuss the differences and the reasons.
MD
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
SB
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grape Shot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames
1 Bribery/Telemin's Performance
1 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Pyroblast
1 Chain of Vapour
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Tropical Island
I keep adjusting one or two of the SB slots based on the competitive and rogue decks I face online, Show&Tell and Reanimator are common match ups so I prefer to have as many Xantid Swarms as possible instead of Abrupt Decays because I believe the best way to beat Miracles is with pro-active disruption instead of re-active removal.
I think the differences between my list and Bryant's list is that he is playing -1 Thoughtseize, +1 Duress and -1 Chrome Mox, +1 Volcanic Island in the MD in order to decrease the average life loss from Thoughtseize and have a more stable mana base but I prefer all of my discard to be able to discard Vendillion Clique G1 and Meddling Mage G2 and I prefer my faster mana base to let me go off with Ad Nauseam at lower life totals.
The SB disruption cards are a matter of preference, Bryant had a Thoughtseize and 2 Pyroblast where I had Thoughtseize, only 1 Pyroblast and a utility slot because I only SB in 1 Pyroblast for 1 Infernal Tutor vs any UW deck to kill Meddling Mage on Burning Wish after an Ad Nauseam. I've split the discard between Duress and Inquisition of Kozilek after having a discussion with a forum lurker over the need to wish for a discard spell that could discard hate bears, he made a good point that if you have to wish for Thoughtseize then they're going to play their hate bear on the following turn anyway so there's no need to take the 2 damage from Thoughtseize. If play Cabal Therapy we usually name Force of Will blind, and if we see Vendillion Clique then we can wish for Inquisition of Kozilek and discard it in time and there's no need to take 2 damage from Thoughtseize. In the situations few and far between where Burning Wish -> Duress is are only protection, we're often better Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns and trying to win or if they haven't played a hate bear yet chances are they have a counter so we can wish for Duress and there's no need to take the 2 damage from Thoughtseize.
Regarding people's off the shoulder match up analysis, combo match ups do not get worse, they get better when you play Thoughtseize because you can interact with their strategy by discarding their combo pieces. You'll have a higher win% vs Show&Tell and Reanimator and your win% vs Storm mirrors isn't significantly affected, likewise you'll have a higher win% vs Miracles because Sensei's Top is not the problem, Counterbalance is the problem, Meddling Mage is the problem and Vendilion Clique is the problem. If they resolve Top, they have to have the mana to activate it and they have to have the counter to float it which is a lot of haves, if they resolve a Counterbalance you are just fucking dead so it's kind of obvious which card of the two you need to be more concerned with. Furthermore you have a card that can deal with Meddling Mage and Vendillion Clique, and once you play against UBWg True Name Nemesis you'll have a card that can deal with their discard as well.
Silence isn't a bad card, but Silence is a weaker card now that RUG is a dead deck and people are beginning to accept that fact. I said it when True Name Nemesis was spoiled and started playing UBWg and UGW True Name Nemesis decks, and I adjusted my disruption package earlier than any one else did because I was being attacked from multiple angles like; Counters, Discard, Hate Bears and Wasteland instead of from a single angle like Counters and Wasteland or Discard and Wasteland or Hatebears and Wasteland.
I'm not saying Thoughtseize turns Miracles and UBWg into winning match ups, but it improves your win% because you're not blind to any angle of attack like you are with Silence.
I've made a lot of posts regarding the technical benefits of using discard instead of Silence in the past, being able to cast it before the combo turn, being able to cast it off of more lands, being able to cast it off of Dark Ritual, being able to better sequence your lands for cantrips, playing with perfect information, imprinting for black etc. so you can review those posts. Likewise I've made a lot of posts regarding the necessity of Bribery/Telemin's Performance for Griselbrand.dec and it's true now more than ever after you no longer get to face roll Show&Tell with a resolved Silence and Diminishing Returns.
Discard rewards a higher skill cap with TES, but in today's meta game it's worth it.
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
Sideboard
1 Tropical Island
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pyroblast
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Thoughtseize
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Telemin Performance
This is the list I played at the invitational & open. The switch between Silence to discard was tough for me, I honestly thought Silence was better. I was on a tear with the back to back Caffrey events in PA (Almost 200 players at each) and then played in a 40 man where I went 0-3. Losing because Silence wasn't proactive enough versus bears and discard, I needed to adapt. Final Fortune was right to a certain extent, if the metagame shifts back to the way it was I'll likely sleeve up Silences again. But that time isn't right now. With the lack of Silence, City of Brass isn't needed and the extra fetch and dual were added. Royce & I both agreed that the additional fetchland was immediately noticed, the dual was nice too for pretending to be Sneak & Show. I opted for 2 Seize/1 Duress, Royce played 2 Duress/1 Preordain (Which I hate - but he did better than me this weekend. The fuck do I know, right?). Royce says the lifeloss lost him a game, I think it's negated since we no longer have the lifeloss from City of Brass. Either way, I never noticed the life at all.
I decided to try Telemin over the weekend. I should've kept my mouth shut about it, as it didn't work the first time I cast it as my opponent (J.D. Nir) sided in a Xantid, which I promptly sacrificed to a Therapy to make him discard three Cabal Ritual. The second time I hit Emrakul, then had Sneak + Emrakul happen on his turn. The next two times I hit Emrakul and won, then did it against Omni - milled his deck down to 12 cards leaving him with no way to win before taking the creature. The last time was against a weird Tezzerator deck. I never saw any creatures at all, then managed to hit his singleton Vendilion Clique from his sideboard. Ouch. I don't know how I feel about it, I definitely don't want Bribery, if it's cut it will go back to being a Chain of Vapor most likely. I opted to play it because one Surgical seems silly and there's not room for another, I don't think the deck really needs another Chain though. (Royce opts for two as he doesn't play Thoughtseize)
I didn't really cast Past in Flames or Returns much over the weekend. Maybe 2 times for each.
@Bryant
@Final Fortune
really nothing new, my meta has been always infested from Team America and likes, I think the F.Fortune's one too...
I'd like to ask:
F.Fortune: the list seems perfect, but the Gitaxian Probe does not make you draw C.Moxen in excess? I've been really happy with 3 main. I really hated when I drew 2 but I perfectly understand to keep in more T.Seize because of this. anyway, long time ago I ssume any can loose with TES playing 4moxen at 20 lifes, so playing 3 moxen is waht I'd do.
Both
Both: Did T.Seize affected in any way to the life loss?, My Black TES list has always been like Bryant's except for -1T.Seize+1Duress. but I doubt if there is a need to play 2 or 3 T.Seize main...
if any of you will expose a report or HowToSide guide I'll be ok to put some testing on it as with this TES list I think some of us by here we can win at least 1 tournament... but I'm not sure if in the Torunament list will people misunderstood and put ANT... mainly people see no silence means ANT...
In my experience with other Discard oriented decks is as always... its like F.Fortune says. really thereisn't to play A.Decay because will win before. I think just adding pyros or more discard is ok. you'll let me know your side strategies..
Also the same is applicable for S&T and OmniShow and even Reanimator. I don't think Xantid is key unless you expect Leyline, just add more discard...
have you evaluated to add Doomdsday to the Side?
on average seems better T.Performance tan Bribery... I'll see.
please let us know any report result or like !
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Yes, I am advanced and you know it...
Suggestion: Play Magic as a Hobby. Competitiveness is uniquely usefull in this Era and just to evolve the human being to a certain extent...
I dislike Telemin's Performance for those exact two reasons, you'll lose games vs Show&Tell and Reanimator by getting any creature other than Griselbrand and if you choose Telemin's Performance over Diminishing Returns vs combo or control you'll brick on a Dark Confident or a Vendilion Clique post-board.
I don't think you need a win button in the Storm mirror when you could've just cast Diminishing Returns with a mana floating, because even if you don't win you get to hit your land drop, play your acceleration, discard their win condition, reset their graveyard and pull ahead. Even Empty the Warrens with Cabal Therapy back up can get there pretty reliably vs ANT, so I don't see any reason to take the variance in S&T and Reanimator and roll the dice otherwise g2/g3 vs Storm and what not. Bribery also has some random upsides vs other combo decks like Hermit Druid and Manaless Dredge, so Telemin's Performance isn't even necessarily better vs combo.
You get a free win vs Storm game 1 and that's about it.
Edit: Regarding the 4th Chrome Mox I prefer to use the 4th Chrome Mox to off set the life loss so I can have 3 Thoughtseize to fight against Vendilion Clique, Counterbalance and Meddling Mage and yes I find it absolutely necessary to play Thoughtseize in your worst match ups.
You can think of SB Bribery and the 4th Chrome Mox as the price you have to pay for Thoughtseize, personally I think they're perfectly fine choices by themselves but others disagree. Drawing the 2nd Chrome Mox is annoying but so is not drawing any Chrome Mox off of a Diminishing Returns or killing yourself off of an Ad Nauseam, every card has its trade offs in this deck. Personally, I play this deck for its speed and I have no problem going all in unprotected so I want to maximize my turn 1 wins anyway.
Sorry if this is a bit of a historical question, but I have been out of the Magic world for a while... can someone explain why Tendrils is no longer in the maindeck?
Because it is a bad natural draw. This and other stuff is covered in the OPOriginally Posted by RogueMTG
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I will likely play 74 of the same cards, I'm most likely going to replace Telemin.
With Miracles everywhere I will not cut Decay, as it has applications elsewhere (Death and Taxes & Chalice decks). Pyroblast as great this weekend, my Miracles opponent tapped out with Flusterstorm in hand to slam Counterbalance. I countered and then killed him (I had a turn one with Pyro - had the Ad Nauseam in grip, couldn't counter Fluster).
The lifeloss didn't matter as I mentioned. Reading comprehension.
Regarding a replacement for Telemin: If there isn't space in the board for a comfortable number of Surgical Extractions, would it make more sense to just move up to 3 Xantid Swarms? Sticking a Xantid Swarm means you can combo off in the face of their Griselbrand, active discard or Pyroblast use could help it land, and then you can just move on with your plays.
You don't side in Pyroblast versus Reanimator. Part of the reason I'm not really interested in this plan is that Xantid isn't everything against them, they have discard as well. It's not nearly as good as it is against Show and Tell decks. It's not a terrible option, it's that I'd rather have something else. If that makes any sense?
I get what you mean, I suppose I just focus on Xantid because the big flashy problem against Reanimator is Griselbrand drawing them into lots of Counters. the issue i think i have against telemin or bribery is that if i resolved a wish and got this spell and was able to cast it, didn't a whole lot have to be going right for me as it is? i just feel like a sideboard slot like that isnt delivering enough. though, im not sure what that "something else" that can help the fight with counter and discard is.
I hear you played some games against my buddy Tom at the invitational - unfortunately I've given him a ton of practice playing against TES. I think he has the matchup fairly well figured out.
I haven't played it much myself, recently, due to all the golgari charms and zealous persecutions running around. I think Empty is so important to the deck. So I went back to miracles for a while and missed the changes to the decklist.
Honestly it's hard for me to think of TES without Silence. But it seems like in this metagame the discard may be the way to go. Stupid True-Name Nemesis.
That's flawed logic IMO, yes a lot has to go right in order for you to get to Burning Wish + 5 mana but you're assuming that Burning Wish for Empty the Warrens or Diminishing Returns are a win condition when they're not, you'll draw either deck into counters or either deck will play Griselbrand and off set your Goblins. It's like picking up a hot girl from the club and remembering that you're all out of condoms by the time you get her home, all of that work for nothing. Bribery closes the deal.
It really depends if you define the subtype by the disruption ran or by the combination of RoF + Burning Wish seeing it as an aggro/combo-deck. The reasons for the changes are tied to the impressions made during november and have further developed to a point, where Silence had more downsides than features against the metagame.
1) the most important first: Dual disruption is the new standard. During the BoM I noticed that people finally started to combine 2 or more angles of attack in Form of counter/discard/hatebears to fight storm. Silence can be used to "timewalk" against parts of it, but leaves the rest unadressed. The question when to cast Silence in their upkeep or in their turn had no correct answer in this world without casting Probe first and even then you might have to look into a grip of FoW+Hymn. Discard lets you at least cherrypick the most annoying card in this situation and prevents bad decisions based on timing your card.
2) SFM still on the rise. One of the most common answers to our goblin ambush these days is SFM into Batterskull. During the BoM I faced the Situation twice to draw a Silence AFTER a SFM entered the battlefield. A discard Spell would have left EtW an upcoming option, but not with Silence and a Wish in hand.
3) discard is faster. The easy fact that discard enables 2-colored protected kills unlike the 3-colored with Silence not only reduces the pressure on the manabase in general and enables us to run more fetches, it also makes a difference against decks running some protection and still being able to pressure your life/combo fast. These include elves (Mindbreak Trap) as well as Show&Tell/Reanimator among others. This also easily voids the damage done by Thoughtseize if you face Delver by giving them a turn less.
4) More information. The fact that we have now 3 additional effects that let us see our opponents hand, makes Therapy as a playset even better than before.
5) Leyline of Sanctity vanished. The trend continued which was a mayor selling point of Silence + Xantid. Without LoS ran as a common SB hate to battle discard, both beforementioned protection spells lose their justification being run in big numbers.
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Sad that silence left the deck T_T
Was one of my favourite cards. I will test the new deck and see if I find the discard better. But I think not playing silence we just lose to senseis divining top and this card is in a ton of decks. And discard dont get rid of a taxes hand of doublé hatebear.
Lets see what time says.
It's not what Silence is any good here either. Against D&T you don't really want to see either discard or Silence but gas, gas, more gas and Business.Sad that silence left the deck T_T
Was one of my favourite cards. I will test the new deck and see if I find the discard better. But I think not playing silence we just lose to senseis divining top and this card is in a ton of decks. And discard dont get rid of a taxes hand of doublé hatebear.
Lets see what time says.
@Pelikanudo
I tested Doomsday not so long ago in the SB as a singleton with a MB Ideas Unbound in place of a Ponder to have another wishable engine. Too iffy to get going on a reliable base.
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Quoted for truth. The people I play test with love floating FOW, Flusterstore or Mindbreak Trap on the top 3. This is pretty annoying to play against as they sit there and wait for their Sensei's Top. It's also annoying when they E-Tutor into Canonist..
Still a minor Problem than fighting against an opponent with FoW + Counterbalance/Clique/Hymn in hand there you can at least remove the immediate threat instead of delaying it only for a turn and still need to pass the counterspell.
Starting with fetch -> U.Sea -> Ritual -> Thoughtseize presents a much bigger threat to them as Goldland -> Silence in the first cycle of turns.
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By a ton of decks do you mean Miracles? I think you're just going to have to accept Miracles is a bad match up for Storm, it kind of goes without saying for any deck that plays Counterbalance. You should be more concerned with UWBg, which is the premier True Name Nemesis deck in the format and the match up you're really trying to salvage.
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