Elves/Death & Taxes/Randomness/Chalice Decks/Burn.Originally Posted by d0nkey
After I hopefully don't scrub out of Standard this weekend, I'll be running this in Kansas City.
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Thoughtseize
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
Last edited by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS; 07-22-2014 at 07:09 PM.
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but you have abrupt decay for those decks too, and pithing needle curbs elves and randomness at the same time.
Couldn't you move one of those CoV for the Trop and then have that open slot in the main?
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Tropical Island
1 Void Snare
1 Thoughtseize
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
I'd say this SB looks pretty balanced, regardless of what you use that 60th slot for.
I would vote for this -1 Chain, +1 Thoughtseize.
Yeah I'd rather try Bayou too (casts more relevant spells), but Bayou+Volcanic doesn't cast Decay...
I still have to test the Taiga. If I like it, I will post it here.
There's nothing else I want to play in the main, that's the issue. What exactly does Needle do against Elves? Decay is often pretty slow, while Chain doesn't take a full turn to cast – especially against Death & Taxes.
Also, I like how we're arguing about an off color land to cast a two-to-three of in our deck. We're adding in Tropical to increase consistency while casting Decay. Taiga can't do this as it doesn't cast Ponder.
I'm going to walk through my thought process here:
I agree with adding the 3rd Chrome Mox and Tropical Island into the main-deck as I have found the drop in artifact mana post Ad Nauseam quite noticeable. The 13th land has always been something of a toss-up and is awful at times, but I don't think anyone can argue that the rise in consistency is a welcome addition.
Cabal Ritual was fine for me over the period we have been using it, even though getting threshold was against our, ideally, turn 1/2 kill. Both Cabal Ritual and Chrome Mox are great after casting Ad Nauseam, but one is much better with mana floating and the other improves our Ad Nauseam's with 0 floating. I often cast my Ad Nauseams with the latter being the case. For this reason, I think I'd rather have the 3rd Chrome Mox despite it being awful in multiples.
With 1 gone, that leaves just 1 Cabal Ritual. I wouldn't run just 1 Cabal Ritual due to a lack of Infernal Tutor synergy, which is why I'm ok with the Tropical Island being switched into the maindeck. It's not thrilling, but it does free up a sideboard slot which is likely better than our other options for that 60th card.
I'd be fine with moving the Tropical Island back to the sideboard if we could free up another slot so 2 Cabal Ritual fit, but the only thing I could even suggest cutting would be the 3rd Duress and I'm not sure if I can recommend that.
One thing worth noting is that now, without Cabal Ritual, the sideboard Infernal Tutor becomes worse as generating enough mana for those loops is harder. The addition of Cabal Ritual was a key argument for that change in the first place. This was also an influence behind the removal of Diminishing Returns from the sideboard, as Past in Flames gained a lot of strength from Cabal Ritual.
I haven't missed Diminishing Returns, but without Cabal Rituals main-deck, there's a chance that I would rather have the 60th card as the 4th Infernal Tutor main-deck than a Tropical Island (for Game 1).
That said, there are a lot of other advantages to having the Infernal Tutor in the sideboard - the flexibility is really nice; effectively allowing one to convert one tutor into another. It also provides a little defense against cards like Surgical Extraction. Having lived with these perks for a while now, I'm not sure I'd ever want to go back to playing without them.
On that note, if we're cutting Cabal Ritual and going with the 3rd Chrome Mox again, we are firmly back in the camp of being the best T1/2 Ad Nauseam deck we can be. So with that in mind, despite its flaws, making Burning Wish able to fetch Ad Nauseam is probably the correct choice.
I'd love to hear all your thoughts on this, but for now I'm rolling with -2 Cabal Ritual, +1 Tropical Island, +1 Chrome Mox.
Bryant, there was a time in the not too distant past when you had multiple Thoughtseize main-deck as you did not want to be caught in situations were your discard could not hit a Vendilion Clique, Hatebears etc. Royce disagreed and ran Duress. At this time you stated that the Duress could be correct and that you would consider cutting Massacre, but if one ran the main-deck Duress list that the Massacre was probably required.
Could you talk a little about your thought process here? I assume the life-loss was simply too great, but it could just as easily be metagame flucuations that changed your mind on these points. Thanks.
Well, that's my opinion on the main-deck changes. This is getting too long, so I'll post my thoughts on the sideboard later.
We seem to share similar thought patterns in a lot of aspects. However, I still would like to keep Infernal in the sideboard as it's not difficult to pull off without Cabal Ritual. Watch my match versus Todd Anderson from this past weekend, I accomplished it game one. Not to mention, Wish for Empty is effectively stronger now as we can Wish for Infernal to grab Empty the Warrens generating more "bros".
It appears to me that hatebear decks are at a low, I haven't faced them in multiple events or if I have I just ran them over. Thoughtseize's lifeloss just isn't worth it at the moment, it could be if those decks picked up again or we could just add Massacre back in.
Hi again,
I've been storming around for 2 years, but I recently changed to the UWR delver to defeat a specific deck... (and by specific, i mean someone specific)
So, I have a lot of trouble beating omnitell decks.... Is it a hard matchup for TES? or should I just ANT him, for it has a better matchup against this deck...?
Agreed on all of the above. At a glance, it does seem like a big increase, but it's really just 2 mana extra and opens up a lot of lines. Honestly, I had forgot to consider that it adds to the strength of Empty the Warrens. That's a great point and a pretty significant boon. Given that I already decided to stick with the sideboard Infernal Tutor prior to considering that, any doubts I had have now been allayed. Thanks.
I'm writing up my thoughts on the sideboard at the moment.
I haven't found Omnitell difficult, I believe it's a favourable match-up. They're quite a slow combo deck, so value your discard highly and play as the aggressor. Test the matchup and be aware of its intracies. There's a fair bit of depth to playing against Cunning Wish, so be sure you're knowledgeable about the options they have.
Pithing Needle targets...
Wasteland
Sensei's Divining Top
Sneak Attack
Griselbrand
Stoneforge Mystic
Fetchlands
What else? (Keeping Gitaxian Probe in mind...)
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DRS burn/heal
Symbiote/Quiron
Cephalid Coliseum
Candelabra
Eye of Ugin
Aether Vial
Engineered Explosives
Equipment cards
Planeswalker cards
Charbelcher/Undercity Informer
Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage
Seige-Gang Commander
Cursecatcher
Forgemaster
Rishadan Port
EDIT:
Goblin Welder
Grindstone
Scavenging Ooze
Relic of Progenitus/Tormod's Crypt/Nihil Spellbomb
Queasy Pridemage
Knight of the Reliquary
Man-land Cards
Grim Lavamancer
Vampire Hexmage
Sterling Grove
Academy Ruins
That's some relevant and less-than-relevant targets to keep you interested
Edit: i think the Applications against combo decks like Belcher and Oops! all Spells! is highly relevant.
P.S.: You can kill ALL DRS abilities not just 2 as the ability removes a land to add a mana to you manapool and is ergo not a mana-ability
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I agree, fuck those dream-crushers
re: DRS, wow, that is pretty cool
the question is: will you side in both nedles vs BUG Tempo and variants - meaning you now have targets for their A.D.?
I'm not sure if they take them out all A.D., if so then could be relevant. I really think DRS is not a bad issue or at least a good reason to side in 2 specific cards for it, maybe sure it handles Wasteland, is enough? I don't think so
Anyway I would like to analyze how would you side p.nelde vs some archetypes.
I could include the card in Miracles, S&T, Charbelcher, reanimator. - I really see the card as a parity between Griselbrand and Senseis, thats why maybe its a good idea, instead of playing more decays and xantids/pyro.
I don't see the card in D&T, BUG, RUG, you have already enough cards vs D&T., maybe vs goblins..., realted to RUG, I dont find neccessary to side in vs this archetype, maybe you can as they dont have artifact destroyed vs you and will not include it. but dont think it's needed, I personally play pyro , so, for those that don't play pyro maybe could be ok...
maybe in Blades, - I would not put it in here either.
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That's the tricky point: just because you find targets in your opponents deck, it does not equal boarding PN's. I can see treating Wastelands decks different depending on the shell.
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I figure if I'm losing against Daze Aggro decks, it's going to be because of Wasteland. So needle seems like a fine choice.
Also Pelikanudo? Can you like actually type your posts so I can understand them?
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Miracles/Grisel-decks/Charbelcher/Oops: I'm happy bringing in 2 Needles, Needle against Miracles is pretty strong, especially on the play.
Painter/Esperblade: I would be fine bringing Needle in here, but it isn't as strong. Maybe a singleton needle would be best. I've only played Needle against Painter once and i just Ad Nauseam'd the following turn, so idek how good it is. I think I do want it against Blade decks, because stopping EE is relevant, and forcing them to tap out for Batterskull delays their already slow clock even more.
D&T/Goblins: Might play one against either, hitting their Vial is potent, but I feel it's not worth as much against D&T because simply discarding their Batterskull can be a decisive win after any sort of EtW play.
BUG w/e: Possibly good against BUG, since the more you can lay on the table, the less they can discard. Idek if I'd mind them having Decay game3 or w/e, because it's irrelevant to interacting with my combo.
RUG Delver: Maybe on the draw it could be good as a one-of, im not sure if wasteland alone is good enough reason for Needle, but just swapping a single ponder for a needle seems fine to me.
Hey guys, I had a situation come up against LED-Dredge and wanted to see what you all thought of it:
Game 1, turn 1, I play a fetch and pass.
Opponent jumps in by playing Cephalid Coliseum, LED. Then Careful Study, cracking LED for red and discarding Faithless Looting + Dredgers. All told, he Dredges around 25 cards, including several Dredgers, 1 Cabal Therapy, 2 Ichorids, 2 Bridges, 2 Dread Returns. However, he discarded one Narcomoeba to LED, and dredged no others. He also didn't dredge a high-value revival target like Flayer/Griselbrand/Iona. He simply flipped half his deck and passed to me.
Turn 2 I lay another land and Brainstorm. My hand before sending 2 back is: Misty Rainforest, LED, Burning Wish, Dark Ritual, Rite of Flame, Gitaxian Probe, Cabal Therapy, Lotus Petal. Now, with an uncracked fetch, LED, and a Lotus Petal, I should have no trouble getting the colors I need, the main issue is what to actually do this turn.
Path 1: Wait. By sending back Burning Wish and Dark Ritual, laying my artifact mana and passing, I am somewhat protected from discard and if no interference comes around, I would have 9 mana for the Ad Nauseam line, which at this point I'm one mana short on. However, that would require cracking 2 fetches, paying a Phyrexian Probe, and getting hit by 2 Ichorids at least. Ad Nauseam with no floating, no land drop, and 10 life maximum. Not fun.
Path 2: Storm out for Goblins. Putting back fetch and Therapy. Probe, pick up Therapy. Crack Fetch for either U. Sea/V. Island, Play Petal. Play Rite and D. Rit. LED, Wish, crack LED in response. Grab Infernal Tutor into Warrens for 18 (1 mana short of being able to play Therapy before Wish and Tendrils for 20, opponent is at 19). Now, flashback the discarded Therapy to kill both Bridges. At this point, the opponent has 19 life, and a deck of all kinds of possible meanness, but 2 fewer Bridges and their big opener already used versus 17 Goblins and an otherwise inactive opponent (I've got 2 lands though, so, that's cool).
Path 3: Gamble on Probe. Putting back fetch and Therapy, crack the initial fetch. Now, if Probe for life hits any of either 3 Petals, 3 LED, 3 Rite or 3 D. Rit, or 4 Infernal Tutor, the game is pretty much won on the spot due to Ad Nauseam from 17. however, if any of the other 34 cards come up, you miss the line. Hitting Cabal Therapy puts you on path 2, not hitting Therapy leaves you with a much worse path 2. Hitting a Brainstorm gives you the chance to hit a combo of I. Tutor + D. Rit/LED, Rite/LED/Petal + Rite/LED/Petal to go off, but that's pretty low odds. Also, you now have no defense from the Cabal Therapying that would doubtless be happening the following turn if a combo comes up because your whole hand is gas.
Path 1 is probably many sorts of awful, but I'd like to see what people think of path 2 and 3.
If I am reading path 2 correct, (Opponent on 19, You have 17 Goblins and he loses his 2 bridges), I kinda like that path the most. Its been a long time since I did probability, but as it stands, he'll have 3 Narco left in his 35 card deck. It seems like all he needs here is a Narcomoeba/Ichorid and a DR Target. However, the one thing that sticks out is that, at least to me, he only has 2 real outs on that route:
1. Griselbrand: I dont believe you can race that, although having the higher life gives you a small chance of maybe doing so (I havent run the math).
2. Flayer into Grave-Troll: Its likely a win for him if he gets this.
It really comes down to if you feel you can win in those 2 turns vs the chance of him hitting that.
Personally, I'd go for path 2 and swing with 15/16 goblins. Leaving one or two back allows you to capitalize on him if he swings with Ichorids with Bridges in the yard. It also doesnt change the clock.
(Disclaimer: I suck at Magic, so take from my words what you will.)
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If he hits Griselbrand, he'll just pay 7, dredge his deck, and combo-kill me, so i definitely can't race that. even w/o Flayer I think hitting all the Narc and Bridges would make it impossible for Goblins to make it.
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