Forgive me the double post.
I've cut Grapeshot as I feel between Massacre and Void Snare there is no reason to run the storm-machinegun anymore. Our enemies are Thalia & Canonist and no longer Gaddock Teeg. We still have ToA to finish your opponents after a Goblin-assault.
Lil' poll for a recent question asked: would a 2/2/2/2 split between Decay/Pyroblast/Needle/Xantid make sense for you? Do we even need CoV with Wish->VS available and a more stable manabase outside of the random Eidolon? Looking forward to some brainstorming :)
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Originally Posted by Echelon
How are people actually using Void Snare? Sorcery-speed bounce for 3 mana just seems useless in most instances, even if it is on-demand.
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White Leyline. That's about it so far.
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My meta has a lot of burn, so it's good for bouncing eidolons if I can't combo before they come down. It's also bounced a trinisphere such that I could then combo out, but that doesn't happen often.
I like it so far, but it's not really special.
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I played in my first-ever FNM using TES last Friday. I wish I took better notes, but I put together a blog post about it
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What's your whole SB currently verses what it would look like with the 2/2/2/2 split?
Pretty much a safety net so you don't have to panic board CoV or Decays, slowing you down for potentially no reason
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I'm not missing Pyroblast (unless you count kitchen table games against my brother on High Tide). I like that Chain of Vapor is a catch-all solution to anything that's not Counterbalance/Emrakul/Chalice of the Void, but I can see an argument to cut it for Pyroblast. When they tap out for Counterbalance/Vendilion Clique/Show and Tell, it gives you the opening you need. My gut instinct is that it's more narrow, but more impactful. Since my local metagame is really unpredictable, I'm going to stick to Chain of Vapor.
I don't run that split as it was a friends idea and I can not strickly argue against any split between Decay/Xantid/Needle/Pyroblast/CoV so I wanted to hear some gut-judgements from my dear Community :)
Main issues are obviously that you have too many cards to board against Miracles/S&T/etc and that most options are redundant.
Edit: his Suggestion was
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Void Snare
1 Duress
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Massacre
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
I just don't know if this makes any more sense than a 3/3/3 split or the like, especially if you consider the Grapeshot to be cut (including discussion of which card among Neelde/Xantid/Pyroblast has the least value). Bryant can imagine to cut all 4 Ponder and 2 Moxen to fit in all the stuff against Miracles, which I think of the only solution
Last edited by Lemnear; 09-08-2014 at 08:54 AM.
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@Lem:
I wanted to note I was the first to propose taking out Grapeshot just with Void snare and Massacre we have all the puzles... and its even better V.Snare than G.S. vs Teeg.;)
I for example prefer to even play more discard, just to potentiate that strategy, I like pyro because it helps me to be more stable and I need something apart from discard vs S&T. Xantid can be one.
V.S. is shinning for me these last times...
I think that Nedle and having in mind its function needs to be played maybe 3 as you need it mainly for:
- senseis, means that you need this ASAP in the table - also play c.b.!
- Wasteland, well you want a Land->Nedle all the time for this.
@To All TES Stormers:
I wanted to share some of my experiences with you last torunaments with the list, I made Top 8 both and near 50 people. not much testing just watching Decks and apply theory and statiscs.
The last tournament I played was with he following list:
No Tropical instead of I.T.
// Lands
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 [U] Underground Sea
2 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [V09] Lotus Petal
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [5E] Dark Ritual
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [M14] Duress
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [THS] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [ISD] Past in Flames
SB: 1 [RS] Tropical Island
SB: 1 [NE] Massacre
SB: 1 [MM] Bribery
SB: 3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [FNM] Duress
1V.Snare
Well important notes about the tournament:
a) I reach a partial of 8-0 vs Jund, the game I played vs Jund even I got a Game Lost! the arbitrer took me apart and told me I had an Illegal Deck! there were near some people in black with Black glasses... I just forgot to side in EtW come on!.
b) I played vs OmniShow, and sure I dodn't play Xantid, but game 1 I just won, it seems easy really, on second was dictated by Leyline, and even the player made a mistake by his part, fact I didn't evaluate I could just have won because of this with the help of Pyroblast, in 3rd game Leyline wasn't in play but again pyro shined. so it could have been 3-0 vs this archetype.
c) VS Burn even with Traps is damn easy. Eidolon doesn't matter, I leave in here EtW.
d) Well the unique games I lost were vs Miracles, the first player from the top was that same player I had to face by second time in Top...:
I won both first games from both match ups.:
- In one he starts and lands a c.b. in my turn I play gitaxian (0 Cost from Top) and I Drew another B.Wish, no counter ->RoF->RoF->D.R.->LED (countered)->B.W. PiF and f*** incredible tendrils. I love this Deck
- The other1st game I needed 2 EtW and an A.N to win. Again I love this Deck
About the Looses from Miracles:
- In one lost game he reached the 4th c.b. I was able to destroyed/discarded 3 c.b. from his main. This archetype played 4c.b. and E.T. from side.
- In one game I lost because once I discarded a c.b. from his hand with C.T. he inmediatly on his 2nd turn drew one, otherwise he had lost.
- The other 2 match ups I lost were dictated by c.b., not senseis.
Well I reached some conclusions, because I'm tired to loose uniquely to c.b. from the last 4 Miracles I just won 1 Match up - and was because of clear misplays from opp. side...:
I'll see how P.Nelde Works. but I think 2 is not a good number, I really think 3 could be good.
I'll up to 4 the number of A.Decay maybe
I'll not play pyro anymore in miracles. I need much more polivalent cards and really pyros a) don't help to a c.b. landed and b) neither to nullyfy by its own a FoW as opposite to discard and c)neither helps to avoid senseis triggers. Nedle in here can helps to a),b) and c) in some percentage
I sided:
-3C.Mox-1Ponder-1EtW-1I.T=+1Tropical+3A.Decay+2Pyros.
in one next match ups I definately preferred to leave 1.C.M instead of pyro.
I wonder what have occurred If would have sided just -1EtW+1Discard. Lem says that this is not correct, but from 4 last analysed match ups vs miracles that's the unique way I've found to win. (apart from Y.P. still not tested) as their unique way to win us is via c.b.
I'm not sure what to do, if playing 4 decays or 3, but there is a fact and its that if c.b. plus senseis are active you're lost and c.b. wreckes also by its own, sure the match up in which I drew as never I've done before I won, but thats luck. and also the other.... (if not luck are just misplays people do, - sure my opp. was better player than the one that appeared in the Feature MAtchup on the cameras vs Bryant...) I'm not sure if to do what F.Fortune says and just side Nedle and more discard, or just more discard.
To be honest I'm not playing much Bribery or D.Returns, and neither Grapeshot, as I tested to take it out. and no regret.
The problem of taking out Bribery is that now it has only 2 different paths and debilitates Wish vs Reanimate and S&T, I think 2 are enough.
I won't take out Diminishing as I prefer keeping I.Tutor main and junk is a deck to have in mind by here so I prefer this configuration -look at results.
So I'm thinking in -1Bribery-2Pyro=+1A.Decay +2P.Nedle, or just switching the Bribery uniquely. I just love pyro, it served me well vs Omni and Blade and I need some kind of AntiShow card apart of discard just because of Leyline.
What do you guys think? I really would like to see if any won because of nedle or Decay vs Miracles.
@Togores:
Togores Paisano 2nd Top con TES, toma supéralo! Además ahora creo que jugaré Miracles ;) Ha ha ha. pero me tengo que quitar esa espinilla con el Ballestin, vaya bribón esta hecho!
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Thanks for the report. From my experience, four decays makes for really terrible Ad Nauseums. I was hurting really badly while only playing three. Going up to three Pithing Needle is something I would consider though.
The problem with miracles is that floated counter plus SDT as well as the Counterbalance-trigger can get annoying seperately. I fear there is no other solution than running Decays to break free from a resolved Counterbalance even if Needle and Xantid can block the floated counters via SDT. Relying on discard only against CB is nuts imo. Pyroblast is just not reliable enough to get Counterbalance under control, but the biggest upside of it among the 4 cards we discussed lately is, that it can delay the Delver-clock and can get rid of Meddling Mages for a very low cost, with the downside that it does nothing against the floated-counter issue. The question should be, which ine is the best add-on for Decay to screw Miracles AND S&T. My current gut-feeling is that Xantids are the least flexible slots atm, but I love to hear other people's thoughts.
The problem with playing 4 decays and 3 Needles is finding space to board all these AND having enough stuff in the side to effectively battle S&T. For the boarding there is the idea of simply boarding out all 4 Ponders (and 2 Moxen) for more solutions in the room, which may needs some discussion as I have the impression that this would put us into the pure topdeck-mode with stuff like 2 Duress, 4 Therapy, 2 Decay, 2 Needles, 2 Pyroblasts, aka 12 protection pieces potentially bricking our own combo-game.
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Any comments on using Blackmail as a Duress replacement? Just wondering what other players think of they ability to discard any card they show you out of three, can make up for the fact that they only show you three out of how many cards they do have.
Seems...poor.
if your meta is dense with creatures, you can just use thoughtseize
You mean like showing you 3 non-counterspells while having Flusterstorm in hand? I'm curious what you had Blackmail in mind for if it's downsides are so obvious?
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Three red actually: Wish, Past in Flames and Wish again, assuming we have both Past in Flames and Tendrils on side, like we normally do. Getting to RRR without Rite of Flame means we are fully dependent on LED to get enough red mana. This makes the Past in Flames kill harder to set up.
TNT is optimized for an Ad Nauseam kill. It usually plays (or should I say "played" since, Team Nijmegen plays TES right now) two copies of Ad Nauseam and no Empty the Warrens in the main deck. The Cabal Rituals are used to generate extra mana so one can go Infernal > Wish > Empty in situations where that is the more secure path to victory.
Even Inquisition of Kozilek is better than Blackmail. They just don't show the card that stops us if we use Blackmail. Inquisition has one major drawback: it doesn't hit Force of Will. That's why we also don't usually play that card. We are pretty much stuck with the cards that hit every relevant counterspell, which are Duress, Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy.
Maybe dumb question, and I'm sure it has been asked before, but I need to get it outta my mind...
When we switched Silences for Duress and/or Thoughtseizes, removing white from manabase as result, it was because all the hatebears as Thalia, Meddling mage etc, and making the manabase more stable. As added bonus, we could combo with protection even faster than before since we only needed black and red mana.
That was a few months ago. The metagame has more blue than ever and and we can't combo as quickly as always, like Lemnear said. Apparently there's no so much hatebears as when white was kicked from manabase and we're running 3 Duress in Silence slots right now.
What am I driving at? Well, what if we go back to running white and Silences? Pros: Silence is useful against Miracles (FOW at topdeck, Terminus trigger if we did ETW tokens, etc) and Stifle decks; at first game it gives us as much protection as Duress. Cons: Weaker manabase (-1 Fetch -1 Tropical +2 City of Brass/Mana Confluence, or whatever); We can't get opponent's hand information when we're casting it, so we cast it the turn we're going to combo (we can also cast it for timewalking the opponent at his unkeep), while Duress can be casted even if we're not going for it just for the information it gives (and for discard his/her best no creature spell, btw)...
Thoughts?
Currently playing: T.E.S. & RUG Delver
@vermiis
I'll weigh in on some thoughts. I'm a skeptic to cut Grapeshot for Massacre.
It's a general use card, where as Massacre isn't. I've killed Craterhoof Behemoths and Germ tokens along with other creatures on board. I've made top 8s of large events because it's an unknown factor where the opponent thought I couldn't kill them with Tendrils so, "Sure." I have wished for Grapeshot to clear an opponent's board (Jared Beottcher) and then deal them seven only to resolve Past in Flames a few turns later and use the same Grapeshot for lethal. Massacre is quite narrow and really only effective versus Death & Taxes which is already a positive match-up, why are we making ourselves generally worse to improve one already great match-up? Doesn't make sense to me.
I've seen the discussion on cutting Chain of Vapor. I'm for it, I've done some brainstorming. Here's my initial take:
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Thoughtseize
1 Void Snare
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
I'd rather have the extra Decay as it's a card I always want to see in the Miracles match-up, I also side it in versus UWr Delver to combat Meddling Mages/Delvers. I understand Pyroblast is also effective here, it's just less reliable. When I was playing two copies of Pyroblast, I often found myself only siding in one in certain match-ups such as RUG Delver anyway. As for siding in seven cards against Miracles, I think this is reasonable:
-2 Chrome Mox
-4 Ponder
-1 Empty the Warrens
+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Tendrils of Agony
Miracles isn't a match-up where card selection is key as much as being threat dense and disrupting the opponent is. This is likely my new approach, they naturally slow the game down meaning that finding the right pieces quickly isn't as important. Having this much disruption for their hate and countermagic will likely make this match-up favorable post-board.
I don't had in mind to cast all three in a single turn so you can save 2 mana and the need for three red total (instead of my mentioned 2). You get the idea.
I've tinkered with 2 or 3 MB AN 1,5 years ago, but it wasn't any better than having the strategic flexibility of dumping Goblins off 6 mana and an Infernal which make me laugh at every Burn.dec or D&T I faced in the last years (and A reason I held onto the 4 MB Infernals)
Edit 1:
The most important thing you miss here is that the manabase and protection did not got altered for having a more stable manabase against Thalia, Meddling Mage or even Wasteland. It was because people finally realized that fighting storm with single angles of answers is too linear to succeed and they started to pair counterspells with Hatebears and /or discard. Even with the manabase- & colorieren aside, Silence is plain inefficient to fight decks with both, instant- & sorcery-speed disruption, resulting into carddisadvantage if you have to delay a Canonist for a turn, but your opponent still holding a Force of Will. Only discard is potent enough to pick apart diverse angles of opposing protection without Virtual or actual carddisadvantage. In addition you gain better cantrips because of the opened space for more Fetches and a faster, protected combo-turn as you need only 2 colors instead of 3. The point is that I have not noticed that the trend towards a duality of hate-angles reversed and people are overloading on counters once again. This is also the reason, I have no more love for Xantid as you might have noticed within one or the other recent post of me.
Edit 2:
For me, the Situation described is a special one and I cannot recall if leeching life via ToA and then flashback it with PIF would have wielded a much different outcome or if killing the board with Massacre would have been impossible (thoughness-wise and mana-wise). I don't see it limited to D&T as I've used it pretty often against Patriot and Co. I'm convinced that most creatures we care for a white anyways and sweeping the board with Grapeshot eats up a lot of spells (which can also be Rituals/RoF) which also means that a possible playline of sweeping the board and dropping Goblins later is pretty much denied.
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