Hi all, I've been playing Phillip's list for about 1.5 months now (running his exact 75 until I understand the deck enough to tweak it myself, for now I'm bowing to his experience and long hours of testing) and need some help with sideboarding. In particular, the BBD-esque UWR Stoneblade decks. I've just been overloading on Blast effects (Blue and Red) and countermagic (counterspell, flusterstorm) and removing things like FoW. Is Counterbalance still included here? I notice it used to be cut against the old 4-color Deathblade decks (maybe because of Decay?) but their inclusion of REB effects seems to make it slightly less good. So maybe cutting 4 Force, 4 Balance, shaving the Swords and Terminus for a bunch of countermagic/blast effects? Thanks in advance!
No no no man. You've got it all wrong. Even if Ein aggressively posits his list as the best Miracles list, that doesn't mean he doesn't have respect for Joe as a player. I'm sure he thinks highly of Joe actually. As for Joe's list, to each their own. Joe likes getting his advantage from good creatures. Ein prefers using broken variance reduction. If there's anyone cheating it's Ein considering his build has the most ways to stack one's deck. Every time a Miracles player casts Ponder a Judge wishes they could intervene because Ponder in Miracles is just...not...fair...Originally Posted by deviant
In regards to Legacy:
That's why you don't respond to pathetic posts like the one above, just let it go.No no no man. You've got it all wrong. Even if Ein aggressively posits his list as the best Miracles list, that doesn't mean he doesn't have respect for Joe as a player. I'm sure he thinks highly of Joe actually. As for Joe's list, to each their own. Joe likes getting his advantage from good creatures. Ein prefers using broken variance reduction. If there's anyone cheating it's Ein considering his build has the most ways to stack one's deck. Every time a Miracles player casts Ponder a Judge wishes they could intervene because Ponder in Miracles is just...not...fair...
For the record. I think very highly of Joes play skill and count him amongst the Miracle Jedi Masters. Disagreeing with his deck construction should not imply any judgment about either his person (cheating? the fuck, like really?) or play skill.
TheHeff - I still have one class at university tonight. I'll respond to your question in due manner either later or tomorrow. But let me tell you: You're not alone. Boarding vs UWR non-Miracle non-Delver is one of the biggest challenges as of now and I am still not sure I tackled it correctly. More on it later. But I'll give you a sneak-peek of my new article (about the US-journey) where I talk about this topic for a second. More will come either later or tomorrow.
"We did, however, register for the Legacy tournament that took place in the afternoon, where I soon suffered a loss from Jarvis Yu piloting UWR Stoneblade, which is a very interesting match-up. There are a lot of different UWR colored decks out there: Patriot a.k.a. UWR Delver, UWR Stoneblade, UWR Midrange and UWR Control. As soon as they play Delver it becomes unbelievably easy to crush them. Even the full-on Control lists with a lot of Delve-Draw-Spells are not that hard to overcome as a Counterbalance pretty much shreds their game plan, leaving them with little to no outs. The problem emerges from the stuff in between that could literally be anything. It is not as simple as someone would only play Rudy Briksza's Stoneblade or Brian Braun-Duin's Midrange version. While people copy decklists a lot they also make a lot of smaller or bigger changes. I saw some of them at SCG Richmond where a couple of the players, including Ben Friedman, added Sensei’s Divining Top to their UWR colored Midrange deck. This is the point where it gets tough. First you have to correctly identify which general direction they are going, then you have to decide which cards to play around and which cards you’d like to ignore (Daze, Spell Pierce, Counterbalance, Jace, the Mind Sculptor) and lastly you have to make a decision on how to sideboard. No matter how well you play or how much attention you pay, you’ll end up with a boarding plan that isn’t correct more often than not. I saw myself re-boarding between G2 and G3 more often vs the UWR versions than I normally do, and this is where the challenge in these decks lies. "
PS: When I cast Snapcaster Mage, casting Blue Elemental Blast with it, targeting their second Vortex... then I felt like cheating lol.
Greetings
Question for Philip:
Can you explain to me why Dig Through Time has not made the final cut of your list? Have you done testing with it and if you did I assume your results were poor enough to dissuade you from playing it - can you elaborate why?
Yeah, I don't usually respond to posts like the one by deviant. However, I jumped at an opportunity to have some fun, which is all I meant by my post really. Probably will refrain from responding to such posts in the future though.
Hi there. I am not Phillipp but I've been playing his list for a little while now so I feel I can give boarding advice. First things first, there are very few creature matchups where you board out Terminus. If you're opponent is attempting to win by creature beat down, you have to have a very good reason to side it out (ex. Miracles mirror. We win by creature beat down often but Terminus is dead most of the time and it is just better to focus on stack control for this MU). Now, traditionally against Stoneblade, Esper and Deathblade, Counterbalance came out as much of their business spells were hard to counter with CB anyways (TNN, Jace, hardcast batterskull). However, BBD's incarnation of Stoneblade has a considerably lower curve than its predecessors. With no Jace and the only spells above 1 and 2 being TNN and Batterskull, this makes me want to consider keeping counterbalance in since it becomes easier to lock them out with it. However, I am not entirely sure if this is correct as I have not had an opportunity to test against these new Pyromancer Blade decks. With that said, here are the board plans I would consider:Hi all, I've been playing Phillip's list for about 1.5 months now (running his exact 75 until I understand the deck enough to tweak it myself, for now I'm bowing to his experience and long hours of testing
Keeping CB in: -4 Swords, -4 Force of Will, -1 Counterspell, -1 Plains, +1 REB, +1 Pyroblast, +1 Council's Judgment, +1 EE, +1 Pyroclasm, +2 Vendilion Clique, +2 BEB, +1 Wear// Tear
Siding CB out: -4 CB, -4 FoW, -1 Counterspell, -1 Swords, Side in all the same as above
Those are the lines I would consider in terms of boarding against these pyromancer blade decks. Keep in mind that you should change your sideboarding according to how your opponent boards. These UWR Stoneforge decks are coming in all sorts of forms these days and have not yet settled into one form as Phillipp has already said. The point is never autopilot with your boarding and always adapt.
Hope this was helpful. Ein, if you have anything to add or correct me on let me know.
In regards to Legacy:
Personally, I cut Dig Through Time for Snapcaster Mage after testing my list time and time again. When you cast your first Ponder, or Brainstorm, or Swords to Plowshares, or REB, you significantly up your chances of seeing your second by playing a pair of Snapcaster Mages than by playing Dig Through Time, and that's what you're doing with this card. You are finding your second copy. You will very rarely find yourself casting Dig with less than 4 Lands in play, but I have tapped out for a Swords to Plowshares on T3 before now, and expect to do it again and again. Snapcaster Mage also blocks, and blocks well. It trades with a myriad of Creatures, including them trying to get a free 1 in with Delver of Secrets, or a T2 Ponder -> Swiftspear. Dig Through Time is often just too slow. I love the card, and I could well quote myself in a month's time saying "Remember when we were all playing less than four Dig Through Times?", but right now I just don't like the look of the deck with it. You have so many cards that just do nothing, and it's the reason I lost to Jund in my T8 match yesterday; I had Ponders and Tops, but I just didn't have enough actual interaction (or mana, but that's another story).
The conspiracy goes deeper than you might think.Can I pay you for not posting in this thread?
It is apparent my arrow missed its mark, so to speak.
Carry on on your high horses then.
I think I'll just stick to UW with 1-2 mystic gates until I can afford more duals. With that color restriction how would you make a sideboard since so many of the standard sideboard cards are red.
Right now I'm thinking
2 Flusterstorm
2 Containment Priest
2 BLEB
2 Meddling Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Council's Judgement
2 Relic of Progenitus or RIP?
1 Spell Pierce
1 Pithing Needle
1 Baneslayer Angel
Any thoughts?
I am on the side of keeping CB in. This is the overloading approach. I would like to overload as many blue spells and permanents as possible. If they want to Blast CB, that means I can play my Snapcaster more reliably. I'm not a fan of getting rid of 4 StP completely. You are not even allowing yourself to have a chance to flashback StP.
As to BEB, I question its usage.
If we use BEB to get rid of red permanents like YP and Vortex, why not just use Celestial Purge? If your intent is to get rid of these stuff either on stack or in play, the bottom line is that you want your removal/counter to resolve. Why do we play a SB card like BEB that can be vulnerable to opponent's REB/Pyro?
If we use BEB to manipulate stack by countering Red spell, I guess the primary red spell target is REB/Pyro, followed by Lightning Bolt. In that case, doesn't BEB just expose itself to another REB/Pyro? If you're that concerned about the Bolt, then I'm sorry, BEB is better than Purge due to your preference.
10 fetches, 1 tundra, 5 island, 3 plains, 1 mountain, and youd probably have to run a single mystic gate. far from optimal but it could work. remember that you dont have 1 tundra, you have 11. you'll just be playign every game like you're playing against wasteland. rishaden port will hurt you more then it should, but you can work with that
I got your point. Just ignore the constant insinuations that you're an uncivilized idiot to not run 4 copies of Ponder in your deck and the whole thing will wash over once people have had their fill of praise/Kool-Aid. Every archetype in Legacy has multiple versions; there's never going to be a consensus "best version".
BEB is 1 mana. I wouldn't board it in against UWR "Pyroblade", but against UR Delver you really can't compare it to Celestial Purge. I like playing sideboard cards that are hard for your opponent to interact with, but that trait is reserved to the expensive spells that serve as card advantage/positional advantage engines of some sort, like Baneslayer Angel. It doesn't matter that your opponent can interact with your BEB; it only costs 1 mana so there's no way they can generate an advantage in a 1 for 1 exchange (extenuating circumstances, withholding). On the other hand, when you trade it for their 2 mana Pyromancer, you get a hell of a boost by playing multiple spells in an early turn on them.
The UWR dilemma:
In recent time there has been an enourmous upswing in UWR colored decks. Previous to Treasure Cruise there were practically two UWR colored decks, being Miracles and Patriot with the MU between these two being hilariously lopsided. Miracles was favored by a huge amount of percentage points. Things have changed, however. Despite URs prevelance in numbers it appeared to be UWR that was best suited for TC, not only due to its kind-of-edge in the kind-of-mirror against UR. So now we have UWR dominating the numbers, and nobody can tell you whether this will stay or not. Maybe it's just a popularity issue and the decks aren't that good? Well, that's not the point now. We now have the following decks that utilize Volcanic Island and Tundra.
1) Miracles
2) Gold Digger
3) Stoneblade
4) Pyromancer Midrange
5) Patriot
These are the 5 general directions that you can take in the modern metagame, each and every giving you a distinct advantage in one special field. I will not talk about how to play the Mirror nor will I touch on Patriot, as these approaches didn't really change and are still rather easy to execute. This leaves us with Gold Digger, Stoneblade and Pyromancer Midrange to talk about. These decks differ greatly on the surface, but aren't that much different when it comes to actually playing them. Let's see what they share before developing sideboard ideas:
A) Delve Draw
All and every single approach utilizes a combination of Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time. What does this mean? Well, basically that we have to try really hard to not fall too far behind in the card advantage section. We are already doing this by the way my deck is built (21 lands) but this isn't enough. We have to utilize Counterbalance as much as we can while trying to make sure they'll never counter Snapcaster Mage with a counter that we could have played around while also giving our Jace the highest priorities ever. All these things might sound obvious but just remember to squeeze out the most of your deck possible to combat the Delve spells that will resolve sooner or later. Oh, and also utilize that fact that you play less/same amount of lands (if same = with more library manipulation). Try not to play the 10 land control deck, Gold Digger is way better at this. Try to play the role that allows you to have just enough lands to cast all your counters.
B) Creatures
How do they win? They don't have Entreat which will simply blast your opponents face off, if unchecked. They try to attack with something, a creature that is probably one of those:
Stoneforge Mystic + Batterskull
Young Pyromancer + Anything
True Name Nemesis
No matter how aggressive or controlling they are, they will attack, sooner or later. They strength, however is closely associated with A. They have the CA and will therefore use their counters aggressively (in the lategame) to protect their creatures, which wasn't really the case before. This leaves us with the option to utilize our powerful removal spells, thank god. But it also means that we might have to keep some sort of removal in vs decks that we wouldn't keep them in, generally.
C) Something unexpected
Your UWR Midrange opponent casts Sensei's Divining Top and Counterbalance? Your Stoneblade opponent goes for Keranos? Your Gold Digger opponent casts Young Pyromancer after utilizing Academy Ruins and Engineered Explosives? The list goes on and on, and it isn't going to get easier. This means that there is no easy default plan that you can do round after round, expecting to win. You have to be flexible when it comes to sideboarding, and more importantly: re-sideboarding. Shape your deck according to your opponents cards.
The plan
So how do you board against any of these UWR decks? Well, I am not going to give you a plan for these three decks, because they don't exist in a nutshell. What I will give you are my opinions on how to board when you see something. You should then be able to put together a decent boarding plan against the UWR opponent that you will encounter.
1) Counterbalance
Is good against any of these decks as it will allow you to do two things: a) Generate card advantage to combat Delve spells. b) Slow down the game. This is all we need and synonymous with winning.
Don't board this card out.
2) Swords to Plowshares
The card is a necessary evil if your opponent plays more than just Stoneforge Mystic plus a handful of Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique and/or True Name Nemesis. Should they go with these cards above you are fine with 4 Terminus 1 EE and 1 Pyroclasm. If you are, however expecting Young Pyromancer alongside these cards you need to keep Swords to Plowshares in. All of them because Terminus would work overdue if you didn't.
3) Blue Elemental Blast
While bringing in Blue Elemental Blast in order to counteract Red Elemental Blast is no bad idea it's not what we want to be doing in this very match-up.
4) Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Can be trimmed to 2 if you suspect the opponent to have Daze. Other than that, keep all of them.
Okay, changed my mind, I'll try to give a very basic idea on how to board vs UWR.
-4 Force of Will
-2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Pyroclasm
+1 Wear//Tear
+1 Council's Judgment
If it's Gold Digger, cut the Swords and the Plains for Counterspell and Flusterstorms. Also make Room for Cliques by not bringing in Pyroclasm and trimming Terminus.
If it's Young Pyromancer based, don't cut the Swords. Cut the Counterspell and one Jace, the Mind Sculptor instead.
If it's Stoneforge Mystic Control based you might decide to leave it at that (and as I see this version as the most popular one I posted the plan above). If it's controlly Stoneblade you can cut the Plains and the Pyroclasm for 2 Cliques. Depending on whether you expect Young Pyromancer or Counterbalance.
If you think that they'll bring Counterbalance, make sure to include Vendilion Clique.
I know it's tough, but I hope that these guidelines help you board correctly as soon as you've taken a decision on what the opponent is. If unsure, go with the boarding plan above.
On Dig Through Time: I didn't test this as much as I tested... like pretty much everything due to not really having enough time. But here's what I found:
Dig Through Time has to replace either Jace, the Mindsculptor, Snapcaster Mage or Ponder. (are you mad?!) In a format that is as sped up as Legacy is right now and with a deck-mechanic (Miracle) that is as clunky as it is I think cutting Ponder for it is madness, while cutting Snapcaster Mage puts you in danger of not being able to react fast enough vs aggressive decks (UR) or Combo. It's important to have a reload-button after you've wasted/used your first Swords on their creatures or Red Elemental Blasts on their Show and Tells. Dig Through Time will find them, you tell me? Show me how you cast it reliably T3 and re-use Swords/REB/Brainstorm.
It also doesn't block.
Cutting Jace for it is alright. It's better than Jace in a fast format. But hold your breath for a second, didn't I just say we need things to survive in a fast metagame? Well, correct: That's why we have 4 Ponder and 3 (I wish I could play the 4th) Snapcaster Mages. They allow us to survive. If we're into the lategame we want something that is amazing, not just a slightly better Snapcaster Mage. We need something that will take over the game and fucking win. Not every opponent will concede. Jace does just that while also adding in the utility to being a good way to delay/beat Batterskull in the Mirror/Stoneblade-matches.
Summing up. It's too slow as an answer to make it to the lategame (Ponder+Snapcaster are better) and it's not good enough to replace our good cards for the lategame (Jace and Entreat). So sadly, there is no spot in this list at this day. If things change, I could change my mind. But for the time being, Nope.
As usual, I tried my best to answer your questions, should you disagree with anything or find any mistake (I am somewhat tired) let me know and I'll try to make sure everything is clear. I hope I could help.
Greetings
Hello Philipp,
i have indeed a general question to this, although may be not especially to the UWR Matchups: Why do you not play the 4th snapcaster (at least in the sideboard), since you yourself see the qualities in him and the advantages he has in many match ups? And if your answer is the 15 cards limit, then why is he not better, then the pyroclasm, one blue elemental plast or the counterspell in your sideboard?
Greetings Laza.
P.S. This question is interesting enough for me, to actually register in this forum ;-) Thanks in advance.
because, in general, you look for specific answers to troubling problems in your sideboard, not more consistency. you all have to be careful you're not cutting to many snapcaster targets.
Hey, and welcome to TheSource!
Your question is one of the toughest one I had to answer in quite a while, and this is due to several factors:
1) We discussed this topic in the Miracles Chat quite some time ago and couldn't agree whether a sideboarded Snapcaster Mage would be of any good use.
2) We didn't come to a conclusion.
3) I don't know.
4) This will be the next thing that i'll try. Thank you very much for the idea!
Damnit, your first post was a good one. You got me, you got me good. :D
Sorry for not being able to answer this in any manner... But, and I am repeating myself, that's a good idea that warrants testing. More than I did before. :)
Greetings
So I was totally wrong to board like this with your list vs BBD's list :O?:
-1 CS
-4 FoW
-3 Jace
+1 Explosives
+1 REB
+1 Pyroblast
+2 Blue Elemental Blast
+1 Wear//Tear
+1 Council's Judgment
+1 Pyroclasm
I won pretty much every game this way.. Even thought it was the correct approach (ye well, I admit I should keep at least 1 Jace in, like you always did vs RUG right). The blue blast is amazing as an extra answer to Pyromancer or a tool to get your CB through by blasting your opponents red blast. I know You might end up going in time without Jace.. But nothing get's through with this postboard, and with your list you will find your Entreat eventually :\ right ^^?
But I will try to keep 2 Jace and don't side the blue blasts. I just think it won't be easy to stick vs counters, blasts, Pyromancer tokens and such....
Btw, my first post in a while. Congratulations with your second awesome top 8 finish :D Pretty sure you had a big shot to win the event if the top 8 structure was a little different.. But at least you've won the mirrors this time =)!
I would like to add that I'm a bit scared without RIP right now. I've seen 'Gold Digger' lists with Punishing fire (not that RIP wouldn't beat their 4 DIG's and 2 Cruises already), and also Dark Depths is gaining some populairity. But I know Priests is worth the 2 slots, so it's hard to play both.. Will RIP ever find its way back into your sideboard Phillip? I must say your list changed quite a bit for this TC meta!
Hey Lans,
thanks for the congratz. And yeah, all I basically wanted this time around was the title. Well, maybe next time.
I wouldn't say that your plan is wrong, it's just different. You just have 4 cards that produce a lot of CA while also having access to 2 counters that are good protecting it. I prefer having more spells that are actually better if drawn later than having additional counters/removal. I guess 10 removal spells are more than enough vs his Pyromancer and all the other creatures. And then I'd rather have a few more win-cons to fight against TC than having more overly conditional counters or even more removal. But it's not a bad approach, i just thinks it's somewhat inferior.
Gold Digger with P.Fire? Well, that sounds like a tough MU. We will see how things shape up, but as of now it's just inferior to Miracles and if a few people play that list with P.Fire, sure. If it catches up, we'll see.
Sorry, pretty tired alright. May respond yet another time tomorrow. :D
Greetings
do you feel this is different if you know they have young pyromancer? or do you think you'd rather have additional swords.
I think that the 3rd Jace in Philipp's 75 is just too much currently. Replacing one Jace with Dig through Time is better. Of course it's only slightly better, because Jace is still Jace and it's only 1 card replaced by another.
With 4 Ponder and all the other card selection and the 1 Dig Through Time one shouldn't have problems, finding a Jace when he becomes good. Problem of a 3rd Jace is that he is simply too clunky/ bad in too many MU's, like all the URx Delve/Delver decks, Infect, Combo, the mirror etc.
Dig Through Time really shines at finding the missing piece of the Softlock combo or by simply gaining card advantage and great selection against the fast decks, where Jace is unbelievable bad (f.ex. UR Delver, Infect).
I have lots of testing results on Modo with some Dig Through Time, 3-4 Ponder (depending on the list, sometimes a Pyroclasm MD is better than the 4th Ponder against all the cancer delver decks) and both cards are really amazing. Ponder at doing the stuff it is supposed to do and Dig Through Time is great at getting cheap card advantage in MU's where you don't have time/ mana for Jace.
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I used to play 2 jace, 1 dig. I actually found that, Dig is best by being in the top3 cards with top, to counter TC and other Digs. 3rd Jace seems better than 1st Dig.
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