[Deck] Goblins

[kinda]

Maybe I'm wrong about tarfire and just stubbornly opposed to shock in legacy. However, vs opponent having 2 dudes early when your on the draw (tribal decks), or decks like miracles, mud, reanimator, or an opponent just having an x/3 ...scout seems light years better. Add in much more potential scout has mid/late game. Though tarfire seems much better vs young pyro and stone forge which need to be gone asap. I think in the md I would try more sgc's or sharpshooter over tarfire. I could be very wrong...I need to test scout still.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Dunno, but we still need removal. Sub Scout lets us revel in the trend of Legacy becoming less and less interactive, but it does not fulfill the same role as spot removal.

I couldn't agree more. I don't think he substitutes as removal at all. Don't cut kill spells for him, or you will run into situations where that Delver needs to die, or the Stoneforge or that Deathrite Shaman etc.

I think he is just reasonable tech to have access to. Matron for Scout at the end game is a thing I have been doing since I put him in the deck to break board parity and go for the kill-- 1 or 2 alpha strikes.

[Chatto]

My Goblin Settler arrived in the mail and my Tribe is complete.

For a while some people were playing the Kiki-Jiki + Goblin Settler package in Instigator lists. I've been away for some time though. How do you think they fit in the current meta, compared to SGC, Krenko, Fatty-less, etc.?

I think there is a New Kid in town (the Scout), and people are trying to find a reasonable list to fit him in. Less toolbox, more streamlined, with a 'renewed' interest in Fatties.

[GoboLord]

Maybe I'm wrong about tarfire and just stubbornly opposed to shock in legacy. However, vs opponent having 2 dudes early when your on the draw (tribal decks), or decks like miracles, mud, reanimator, or an opponent just having an x/3 ...scout seems light years better. Add in much more potential scout has mid/late game. Though tarfire seems much better vs young pyro and stone forge which need to be gone asap. I think in the md I would try more sgc's or sharpshooter over tarfire. I could be very wrong...I need to test scout still.

In my testings (against BUG and Grixis) so far SubScout was better than Tarfire 100% of the time I drew it and I also had a couple of situations when I picked it with MAtron (that one time when I had only Warchief anbd Piledriver in play and at 3 mana + Vial @ 3 drew Matron into Matron into Scout and swung for 9 with an unblockable piledriver). That's anecdotal evidence of course and I do understand that Tarfire or Gempalm Incinerator are still a necessity. The list I tested:

MANA (23)
12 Mountains
3 Chrome Mox
4 Caverns
2 Wasteland
2 Pendelhaven

CORE (31)
4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Winstigator
4 Piledriver
4 Chieftain
3 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader

OTHER (6)
4 test-dummies (Tarfire vs. Subterrean Scout)
1 Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

I'm inclined to run SubScout as a straight 4-off right now as I want to go that "no-interaction route" that jrw1985 was reffering to. One big disadvantage of Tarfire agains BUG, Grixis and Stoneblade decks is that it is actually the only real target for countermagic (besides Vial). So, while people who are saying "you want to DESTROY that SFM, DRS, DoS" are right, we must realize that Tarfire is getting countered between 30% and 50% of the time in situatuations where SubScout would come down via Aether Vial or Caverns.

Also, the idea of running a fattie (most likely Siege-Gang Commander) in that decklist with 8 Lackeys + 3-4 SubScout sounds tempting, but I'm conviced that we achieve many more %s by streamlining the deck - i.e. designing it in a way that it does what its designed to do more consistently (which is a really challing task for decks that want to compete with the consistency-level of 12-cantrip.dec).

[jrw1985]

@ jrw1985: what about Kiki-Jiki as (2nd or 3rd) bomb?. In a list with WInstigator it looks particulariteit good: copying Scout or SGC etc etc

Kiki reminds me of Goblin Wizard. It's an extra step between your Lackey and a Bomb. Instead of cheating in a creature that let's you cheat in bombs, shouldn't you just cheat in bombs?

[Chatto]

Kiki reminds me of Goblin Wizard. It's an extra step between your Lackey and a Bomb. Instead of cheating in a creature that let's you cheat in bombs, shouldn't you just cheat in bombs?

Aah, I see what you mean. Fair enough, I'll be toying with your and GL's suggestions.

[goblinpiledriver]

Kiki reminds me of Goblin Wizard. It's an extra step between your Lackey and a Bomb. Instead of cheating in a creature that let's you cheat in bombs, shouldn't you just cheat in bombs?

I would consider Kiki a bomb. Being able to matron or ringleader each turn, or double/triple (with end step trick) your piledriver count is pretty scary.

[kinda]

I would consider Kiki a bomb. Being able to matron or ringleader each turn, or double/triple (with end step trick) your piledriver count is pretty scary.

Not doing anything by himself and being slow are not in his favor. Dropping him turn 2 off a lackey is meh...while turn 2 siege gang is awesome. Late game Kikki when u have matron/ringleader/piledruver is solid. But siege gang is still good in this situation...as well as dropping him on an empty board. Plus if your running chieftains siege gang becomes amazing. In What matchups do you feel he shines?

Edit: sgc+piledruver+scout=value town :)

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Not doing anything by himself and being slow are not in his favor. Dropping him turn 2 off a lackey is meh...while turn 2 siege gang is awesome. Late game Kikki when u have matron/ringleader/piledruver is solid. But siege gang is still good in this situation...as well as dropping him on an empty board. Plus if your running chieftains siege gang becomes amazing. In What matchups do you feel he shines?

Edit: sgc+piledruver+scout=value town :)

Kiki has been traditionally good in lists that run Warren Instigator and Goblin Settler. There was some hubbub on here a while back about these interactions. Give the thread a search.

[Humphrey]

the Kiki discussion is older than this thread. 4 years ago we already agreed that running SCG is much better than Kiki

-direct board presence
-good topdeck
-only out in certain situations like moat
-only double R cost
-synergy with piledriver and gempalm

[GoboLord]

4 years ago we already agreed that running SCG is much better than Kiki

We didn’t.
Also what card you pick as your fattie depends on the rest of your deckldecklist, so I highly doubts that there ever was a consensus.

[jrw1985]

I'm willing to say that SGC is better than Kiki generally. And there are many reasons. First off, they are both explosive cards once you get them in play, so any argument about one winning the game quicker is moot. They both do a great job of putting on pressure. SCG is just plain better when you're behind though. There is no argument about that. Kiki is a super shitty haste bear on an otherwise empty board. Both have the ability to generate CA, board position, and act as removal, but only SGC does all those in one card. Kiki requires two cards. So SGC is again better since it is a more efficient slot in the deck list.

I'm actually thinking SGC could be a 3-of now that Scout is here. I need to do some testing on that I think.

Also, I'm thinking Winstigator lists might do well to split chieftain and warchief 2-2. Sometimes you need the chieftain pump, but sometimes you need the Warchief cost reduction. Either way, both give haste which is the real important part.

[Chatto]

Regarding removal: I would argue that Incinerator seems more appealling because of it's cycling ability. However, 2cmc is bit of a stress on the deck. Still, it is more in the 'non-interactive'-approach suggested. Tarfire does seem to fit better cmc-wise.

What do you guys think?

[goblinpiledriver]

Regarding removal: I would argue that Incinerator seems more appealling because of it's cycling ability. However, 2cmc is bit of a stress on the deck. Still, it is more in the 'non-interactive'-approach suggested. Tarfire does seem to fit better cmc-wise.

What do you guys think?

I currently have 2 Tarfire/1 gempalm

They both have their applications. A successful gempalm always feels better. Added bonus of not being shut off by our own chalices if we're running them.

Unfortunately, Tarfire seems necessary because we can't guarantee 2 goblins on board to match or exceed Tarfire damage with gempalm. Also there are some creatures you can't let untap like mother of runes, and Tarfire is pretty good there.

I might move up to 2/2 split, but it's a bit of a meta call. One shop I play at is combo heavy, so extra removal isn't necessary. The other shop is very fair and creature oriented, which makes multiple gempalm attractive. I will be trying out a third shop this Sunday, but am unsure what my final build will be. I hope to test sub scout tomorrow night and possibly again on sunday.

[GoblinSettler]

Also, I'm thinking Winstigator lists might do well to split chieftain and warchief 2-2. Sometimes you need the chieftain pump, but sometimes you need the Warchief cost reduction. Either way, both give haste which is the real important part.

Moving forward with Warren Instigator and Subterranean Scout I would run more than four hasty lords. I ran a list with 4 Chieftain and sorely missed the cost reduction effect at several points in the evening.

...

Speaking of the evening, I ran Brennan McAlear's list, http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=87964.
A couple changes to the main that I'll outline here. A few changes to the sideboard, too, but nothing major.
-1 Prospector, -1 Tarfire -> +2 Scout.
-1 Vial -> +1 Collected Company
-1 Pendelhaven -> +1 fetch
-1 Cavern -> +1 Port

Prospector seemed like the easiest cut right now. A second Scout is probably better than a third Tarfire, but I still want two of those. Awkward hands with Chrome Mox are worth the price of acceleration. I'm less sold on awkward hands with two Pendelhaven. That said, Pendelhaven seriously overperformed so I can see wanting another. I like having a Port somewhere. And Collected Company, this is something I want to try more. Previously I ran four just so that I would draw into it frequently and I was happy to see it when it came up. Tonight I didn't see it.

My night went like:
Goblin Bombardment, 2-0.
My opponent taps out for Bombardment and passes the turn. I casually put the Pendelhaven into play. That's game.

Omnitell, 2-1.
First game I lead with Chrome Mox. My opponent cantrips and misses a land drop. I have a turn three kill. Game two I keep a terrible hand with Trinisphere. My opponent quickly Shows an Emrakul and my team the door. Game three I have another aggressive start and the Trinisphere. My opponent Probes, see the writing on the wall, and I have another early kill.

Grixis Delver, 2-1.
Things go very right for me here. Pyrokinesis clears the board like a champ.

Jund, 1-2.
Game one I get punished by Fires and locked out by Liliana. Game two opens with Chrome Mox to my opponent's surprise. Things get out of hand. My opponent dispatches the first Lackey but I follow up with two Instigators and a sick Ringleader flip.

Game three is super intense. Board control goes back and forth with my opponent landing a couple sweepers. Profitable attacks stall out. A horde of goblins stare down three Goyfs and a large Scavenging Ooze. My opponent can't alpha strike or I chump and swing back for a large amount. Time is called. We are in turns. I bounce the Ooze to reset its counters. My opponent swings in with two Goyfs, leaving one back on defense. This should raise alarm bells, but I don't see the line. I chump one Goyf and fall to 4. Rakdos Charm. I lose. So close.

I'm not sure if the swing back would have been enough, anyway. My opponent had gained serious life from the Ooze. I was missing the Warchief here. I couldn't deploy more than two threats per turn. Blocking and removal kept a consistent drain on my board. My opponent played tightly, conservatively. I never saw an opening. I'll be thinking about this game for awhile.

Ah, well. A fantastic game and a great way to end the night.

[Chatto]

@ GoblinSettler: I felt the same about Warchief! Really missed him.

Hello Warchiefs!

Today I played a small tournament. It was a 5-rounder with cut to T8. I didn't make good notes, as I forgot to write down what I took out. That said, I played the following 75:

Core (28)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Subterranean Scout
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Aether Vial

Other (10)
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Tarfire
4 Warren Instigator

Mana (22)
2 Pendelhaven
3 Chrome Mox
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
9 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pyrokinesis
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

- No Krenko, because the lack of 4+ hastelords. To be honest, SGC won me a MU (and would it be Krenko: no, probably not).
- With the inclusion of three Chrome Mox I felt slightly better about a 3Sphere. However, I never saw one.

R1, Remco with Manaless Dredge.

G1: I have a pretty fast hand with Piledriver doing his job. Nothing new here. In: +2 Rabblemaster, +2 Kinesis, +1 Sharpshooter, +1 Crypt, +2 Relic. W

G2: It didn't went that well. Remco boarded and used both Contagion and Vengeful Pharaoh against my Red Army. L

G3: I assemble a pretty good team, and even drop Rabblemaster. Some triggers missed by Remco gives me the game. Missing the Pharaoh-trigger (and not killing Piley), brings him dangerously low. I hit him with all I got, including Instigator. I drop Matron on the first, and SGC on the second. With him on one, and me having two lands untapped: W

1-0/ 2-1

R2, Terrence with Dark Maverick. A true nightmare.

G1: he just crushes me with big Knights. In: +2 CotV, +1 Crypt, +2 Relic

G2: I do some damage, resolve some GY-hate, and even manage to use Scout on Piledriver, but in the end he just goes bananas: MoR and really HUGE KotR are not funny. L

1-1/ 0-2

R3, Koos with Omnitell.

What can I say? He had it all. I even had to mull to three in G2, but as he had T2 SnT in both games it didn't even matter. In: +4 CotV, +3 3Sphere, +2 Rabblemaster. L and L

1-2/ 0-2


R4, Sjoerd with Dredge. Two Dredge-players... and I meet them both.

G1: I don't have the fast hand, and after some dredges he takes me down. In: +2 Rabblemaster, +2 Kinesis, +1 Crypt, +2 Relic. L

G2: I play a early Crypt, and wait untill I see a big dredger. I crack Crypt end of his turn and lucky-draw Relic. I play Relic, while keeping pressure. After cracking Relic it went fast. W

G3: I keep a bad hand, should have mulled for GY-hate. Still, had some pressure, and some unfortunate dredges for Sjoerd. I wait patiently, while Sjoerd makes a lot of Zombie-tokens. We trade some creatures, I use Pendelhaven a lot to save/ pump mine. I then drop Scout, making Instigator swing by his tokens, dropping Ringleader and Rabblemaster. After that, it was pretty much game. Note that I did not see any GY-hate this game... Unlucky me W

2-2/ 2-1

When R5 starts, My opponent is a no-show. After asking around I get my answer: a drop by my opponent.

3-2, but with bad tie-breakers. Thus ends my run, 9th place.

Some points:

- Not much to say about Scout. He did precisely what had to be done, and made some pretty good runs. However, I wouldn't say my MU's today were the best for an indepth-analysis, so I really can't say a lot about him. Having multiples and not being able to cast them felt shitty, and I think even cost me the game against Terrence. I do think Scout can be a high-impact creature: I will continue keeping him as a four-off.

- That said, I really missed Goblin Warchief. As stated, there were moments I could have gone brokers but was short on mana. Also, not being able to cast Piledriver and Scout in one turn was pretty frustating. Still, would not leave without Chieftain: being able to turn a Zealous Persecution into a dead card felt pretty sweet (Terrence showed Z.P. to me after g2), but not being able to turn this into a win...

- Warren Instigator is cool, and making it unblockable did give me a win. Still, I did not felt comfortable playing him. I would much rather had some MWM's or a second Fatty. It's pretty weird, because most of you like the Winstigator-build, but it's just not my kind of build.

- The manabase felt solid. Not playing Fetchlands wasn't a problem at all. Still really, really happy with the inclusion of Pendelhaven, and will keep it in. This was the first tournament I played Chrome Mox with confidence, and felt rather happy with the card: I will keep it in my main for now. Against Omnitell I felt naked without Rishadan Port, but spots are tight as it is.

- Regarding the SB: Goblin Rabblemaster is a pretty sweet card. Hyper-aggresive, and with a high impact when not answered. I do think it is a real SB-card, though. Trinisphere was boarded in, but never seen. Still, the SB felt solid, but can also change quite regurlarly.

Overall, to me, Winstigator and Scout are fighting for the same spot. Warchief was missed, as it would probably have given more blow-outs. I will be tinkering for a bit, but this is a rough version of what I probably will be playing next tournament in Amsterdam:

Core (28)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Subterranean Scout
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Aether Vial

Other (10)
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Goblin Chieftain
3 Tarfire

Mana (22)
2 Pendelhaven
3 Chrome Mox
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
9 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pyrokinesis
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

One last remark: Omnitell is a shit-MU.

Thank you for reading.

[Humphrey]

I really wonder why you guys are so happy with chrome mox. Everytime I tried this card, I absolutely hate it. Often enough I had to exile buisness to get an early Instigator, but didnt have anything to cheat into play left. Also topdecking or getting multiples is soo awful. I wouldnt run them in a list without brainstorms...

Im currently testing around with Mox Diamonds, they seem to be much better to me.

[GoblinSettler]

I really wonder why you guys are so happy with chrome mox. Everytime I tried this card, I absolutely hate it.

I've had absolutely miserable results with it in the past. I kinda hate it too, I totally get that. But sometimes it works and it's a nice speed boost. In match ups like Omnitell that speed feels pretty necessary right now.

Often enough I had to exile buisness to get an early Instigator, but didnt have anything to cheat into play left. Also topdecking or getting multiples is soo awful. I wouldnt run them in a list without brainstorms...

This exact situation came up a couple times in games this week. My approach was to hold on the Mox. I didn't get the initial jump. But later it allowed me to jump from two to four mana, or some such, once I had drawn a redundant spell instead of a land. At least once I found it rotting in my hand. But over all, the variance here has been swinging my way.

Im currently testing around with Mox Diamonds, they seem to be much better to me.

What are your numbers for lands and Diamonds? I often run Mox Diamond in Stax-like decks. There I'm looking at ratios like 24 lands with 3 Mox. Or 25 lands and 4 Mox. That seems like too many mana sources here.

[Chatto]

@ Humphrey: jup, yesterday was the first time I was happy with Chrome Mox. I only once played it on t1, usually holding on to it like Goblinsettler. In the past I would just slam it down, yesterday I was really taking my time.

Note that you don't have to imprint. So in the late game, against Omnitell for instance, you can drop it as a 'sac-permanent'. But who am I fooling... However, you must discard a land when Mox D comes into play.

I agree with Goblinsettler here: the ratio land/ Mox D is far beyond normal for Goblins. I would argue Mox D is not good in this deck.

[Stevestamopz]

Goblins has once again made it into the top 32 of the SCG legacy IQ with Jon Wood (I'm sure that's someone here?) coming 13th with this.

Imagine how good he would've done if he'd replaced the Krenko's with SGC's... I jest. Well done Jon Wood, whoever you are.