[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Lemnear]

I however don't see the reason to just sit on fetches as you boys say in here, if you want to sculpt a hand which wins on 2nd turn you need to make ponder or B.S. in order to enable a 2nd turn win most of the times to find the land/Ritual/Threat, the same can be applicable to the way B.S. is played. I sometimes play B.S. in the same turn of comboing and mainly if statistically I need a key card, If I have the mana-Threats enough to combo I just B.S. EoT.

Of course you don't because you are so focussed on the idea hat your opponent has no key play and you a complete nut opening 7 where only a random card X is missing from blowing your opponent out. All your arguments root on best case scenarios and ignore so many circumstances that I sometimes have no idea where to start. Take this example: You opponent opens with Island -> Delver. You want to tell us that its sooooo smart to fetch a Volcanic (in your case: drop Gemstone) and go for Ponder? Daze your Ponder; Wasteland in your Volcanic; thanks for coming. I play around Daze/Wasteland as much as I can so all their situational cards get worthless after I dropped my third land for the game. Thats why I play 14 lands atm and thats why I play "fetch, go"

as anote, the lack of C.M. avoids scenarios to just use B.S. in the same turn of Comboing in my opionion,

That's because you rule out any scenario where you just slowroll and make landdrops. Once you have two/three lands in play, sculpting (eot) with Brainstorm gets really good as you can fetch the crap away and untap. The gap between my 14 lands Fetch/Dual base and your 12 lands Rainbow base is large in terms of how to play.

Also I just don't think sitting on fetches and just not playing ponder or Duress with a Dual is the way to go with TES, the profit of having 15 lands and among them 2 basics is that you ponder with Island or Duress with Swamp whith absolutly no fear of not reaching the desired mana in the followig turns (in TNT), if you play TES and you only play from 12 to 13 lands this is an issue, I read things like playing discard with the swamp, having the Bryant List - I believe this is unrealistic as with only 12 lands it is likely to occur a lot of mana issues and more if you have to fecth for a swamp whih leaves you with 10 lands in the deck.

It would be helpful if you take the lists in question to drop critique on the concepts. I don't play 12 lands but 14 so don't stop fucking argue with mana issues in regards of not being able to drop lands to discredit the slowroll against Daz/Wasteland. As someone who sticks to Rainbow lands and running DimRet in 2015, telling people about "the way to go with TES" is cocky.

I'm really fed up with all the out-of-context discussion, (un)intended misconceptions used as arguments and highly artifical scenarios.

[QUOTE=Pelikanudo;895674]Also for me the importance of having T1 wins is relevant vs Hymns, Chalice,etc and in general 2cc hateCards on the draw.

Chalice @ 0 if you are on the draw: Fuck your Chrome Moxen; fuck your 12 lands only; fuck your Rainbows with Wastelands

Ok, no problem, please could you send me a P.M about what Jamie wrote vs Miracles Strategy in the Facebook as I do not have access. this was regarding my publication of Miracles strategy. Thanks.

Jamie Westlake:

"I went 4-0 with ANT against Miracles in Lille, but that is by no means really a true reflection of the matchup (in its entirety or just postboard, it's about 50/50 like almost everything for ANT..). Basicly all postboard games against them were won with the singleton sb Empty for what it's worth. What I try to do with ANT is to be setup for both the quick game (Kill before the lock comes online, or discard it and go off in short order. Empty and AdN are key good cards here) and the grindy game (I'd like some Tops, Decays, Grips, 1-2 Carpets, any number of Tendrils for this plan). I boarded out the Preordains, 15th land, PiF & a CRit or something like that. If the Miracles list of choice is the Mentor variant instead I'd pack Sulfur Elementals. Playing multiple Empies is something I considered for Lille (for both Miracles & all the Delver decks), but didn't test enough to actually play there."

I have had enough 0 Lands Hands 1st Turns Wins with TES to have this scenario absolutly in mind.
playing TES vs wastelandsAndBlue.deck and on the play - a discard or ponder has made me win a lot of games in different scenarios to just discard a B.S. or -infinite other things I would need derived from casting ponder in st turn,

#DiscussionWithoutContextVol.1 How many were against FoW/Daze/Pierce or Chalice/Thorn/etc. on the draw? #DiscussionWithoutContext

I just think TES needs to at least ponder on first turn to just have more possibilities to make a 2nd turn win, the case of discard is more relative as you invest 1 spell and if you want to make natural storm this issue may be very relevant.

#DiscussionWithoutContextVol.2 Do you know what you have to look for if you T1 Ponder on the play? Are you aware that you have to shuffle a T1 Ponder unless you find 2(!!) gold cards in it?

I play "fetch, go" T1 ; look what my opponent is playing; T2 I cherrypick a card with Ponder, fetch away the rest and continue in a suitable way (like Therapy if my opponent was going for Plains -> Mother of Runes).

I have to say that overall and vs wastelandsAndBlue.deck I had more wins with TES than with TNT and this is mainly because of the possibility of enabling more turn 1/2 wins on the spot and with EtW, as said in other posts, I really do not mind to just beeing destroyed by a wasteland after playing a duress stripping a FoW if I already have for example a Gemstone to beeing able to play whatever card I could need.

Are you testing/playing exclusively vs. idiots? Like no one keeping a hand with FoW/Daze/Pierce/Fluster, never boarding sweepers, never rewarding your Gemstone -> Duress with a Wasteland? Are you really making a point here based on "oh I lost the Duress + a land for (potentially) nothing against Wasteland.dec, but I have a sure combo left with my remaining 5-6 cards anyways"?

When playing TNT enabling Basic to play ponder or Duress and next trying to sculp a hand to win - a lot of times this time investment results in losses.

Playing discard without going off in the same turn or the turn after results in losses. Sorry, my Storm Shards #3 about the 101 of storm cantripping and the #4 one about Discard is still just in the making and without release schedule. I will not make a lengthy post here to explain why all the auto-pilot T1 Ponders/Duress are plain stupid and makinf a point out of that is bollocks

I think these aproaches are completely different and I would absolutly prefer regarding your lists (Lemnear GP Lille List)
a) to have 15 lands
b) among them 2 basics - Island and Swamp
c) the conclusion of a) and b) which is: beeing able to cast a Ponder or a B.S. whenever I need/want and everyday of the week

Look who's talking here about manabases and cantrips. Fix your "I can't shuffle after my cantrips because I run Gemstone Minesinstead of Fetchlands" manabase, before teching me about the limits of mine. Do I really need to go about how shitty the island is for TES again, just because you don't understand how to play your cantrips/discard against Wasteland? Jesus Christ, you criticize the concept without understanding it in the first place.

maybe I'm not interested in improving the 3rd combo turn of TES, I believe it has an already powerfull turn 3 wins.

It has not. The whole problem of Chrome Mox and a low amount of Lands is that the value of this build is diminishing once you enter your third turn and every manadenial pointed at your deck cements your losing position. You have absolutely zero tools to get out of the range of their tempo counters. That is the angle I wanted to improve.

I've seen 'IMS' occurrence a lot of times and what does this exactly mean? I moreless know what this means... (inmutable mana source maybe?)
As said, I understand the logic behind to make TES a super 2nd Turn stable Combo deck, but on the draw you have again the same problem vs 2cc hatecards. Also with the raise of Omnishow or ANT builds (not only D&T) I think having configured the deck as fast of possible is a thing.

It's hilarious that you point now to the games you start on the draw to discredit the "two lands plus" concept of Rain and don't get that being on the draw against Chalice @ 0 fucks your whole point of running Chrome Moxen. I drop all these beautiful fetchlands and Wish for Massacre on demand or cast eot CoV/Decay through Thalia removing the Chalice/Thorn/Hatebear/etc, untap and win. What do you do? Sitting on your Gemstone with a Mox in hand dying to Thalia/Chalice + Wasteland because you can't draw more lands.

How did you survive here without knowing what IMS is? Its "Initial Mana Source" aka all the possible manasources you can play/use in a single turn which have no manacost attached to themselves and/or their activation (Lands, Petals, Moxen)

Apart,
I've been testing D.P. in side, sure with my Obsolete configuration of Gemstones and 3 C.M and have to say this:
a) if you don't have LED in hand and C.M. and Lands and Rituals you'll encounter scenarios in which C.M + land is the way to go for a fast kill on 2nd turn, playing B.W. in the 1st turn for D.P. into A.N.
b) if you have LED, B.W.->D.P.->A.N is still a 9 mana requirement card win, well much more better than thos D.R.!! I'll miss this card so much...

a) It's intented that way. You can dodge the situation of being forced to go for EtW otherwise
b) Fuck this shit. DP does not give your opponent FoW + cardadvantage like DimRet would.

Apart II,
On my next spare time I'll be doing some testing vs miracles... not much I've had, I dont remember my last legacy torunament...

I've been evaluating options, the last I tryed which was ok or at least the less worst was 4 A.D. + 2 Xantid.
Reading ANT GP Lille Turnaments reports I believe that I will put by the moment +1 K.G. from side.

I think what happened ias the followig:

a) a Miracles player generally expects ANT as storm archetype to face, and for 2nd games usually sides out a lot of massive removal

b) if the Miracles player faces TES he/she absolutly knows that EtW is a thing to have in mind so I believe that Miracles player in general tends to side out less mass removal than vs TES.

c) Im not sure how Miracles players in GP lille will side from now on vs ANT, as I, as Control player do not conceive to loose vs a horde of Goblins - I think this will not happen anymore... for the sake of god, they have terminus and E.E....

d)I see Xantid as a card vs Miracles and Omnishow, but If I want them to make absolutly useless their removal, maybe I try other strategies like +2pyro +2 xtirpate which also is effective vs Omni show, but still not sure - I saw this in the SloshThedark strategy which also was usefull for him..., I remember when I was testing anyway 3 Extirpate and I was in deed disappointed...

e) next stuff I will test is +2 Xtirpate + 2 pyro + 4 A.D. + 1 K.G. (but I need again 2 free slots... maybe 2 Extirpate is enough - dont know...)
by the moment +1 Krosan plus the already Xantids is a thing to test...

Looks like you haven't read what Jamie/Martin wrote about the matchup in regards to goblins. Goblins are still good as they have to side out mass removal anyways. You just don't want to go All-In on those. Xantids are "ok" vs. Miracles but not impressive. Pyro is crap once Counterbalance is on the field.

I realize Island and Tropical Island delay the fundamental turn to T3, and while I agree with you about MD Island the problem with your argument on SB Tropical Island is that the match up you would SB Tropical Island in against A) Doesn't have Wasteland and B) isn't won before Turn 3 with Goblins. I like Swamp too much in order to play with Misty Rainforest, but if we ever reach a 4 U/B, 2 U/G, B/G Fetch, 2 U/B, 2 U/R, U, B Dual/basic manabase like ANT then SBing in both Bayou and Tropical Island doesn't seem too out of line to me because the priorities change post-board.

Miracles and Lands do feature Wasteland despite being Matchups you want to side in the Decays. UW Blade might be another one.

I realize how good Fetchlands are, but that doesn't mean we should only rely on Fetchlands in order to protect our manabase at the cost of never being able to spend our mana efficiently on discard. There have been a lot of games where I've Probed, seen a Force of Will and Wasteland, Fetched Swamp, Therapied Force of Will and then won on T2 with Goblins and I think you're missing out on these windows by not playing Swamp or Empty the Warrens.

I peeked in such a hand in Lille too (UR Delver matchup covered in the report), but that did not bother me much. I slowrolled and cast Duress & Tendrils in a single turn. I know what you are trying to tell me and I will not disagree with the logic behind, but just wanted to point out that I was able to work around the lack of the Swamp/EtW in the matchup in question and thats maybe the reason I don't label either as "required"

Regarding the single 4cc card difference post Ad Nauseam, I think you're getting hung up on casting Ad Nauseam game 1 when we more often than not cast Empty the Warrens. So if we're winning most of our T1 games with Goblins, drawing Empty the Warrens off of an Ad Nauseam chain is only a secondary consideration because we are no longer an Ad Nauseam deck in the same sense that ANT is no longer an Ad Nauseam deck by not making it our primary win condition.

Maybe thats because I lost too many game 1s with resolved EtWs over the years to have a bit of a hate/love relationship with this particular All-In move against Batterskulls/Jitte/Wurmcoil/Glimmervoid/GolgariCharm/ZealousPersecution/EngineeredExplosives/Terminus/Griselbrand/Elves.

Its also up for question, if Dark Petition isn't the card which should let us question the position of TES as a Game-1-EtW.dec especially in the current field

In the event we do Ad Nauseam, it's probably because we either had the luxury of mana to do it quickly or we waited to do it vs control, and in neither of these situations are our life total ever under pressure. Also, it's not like you never draw into Empty the Warrens on your way to 4 life or that you can't keep drawing with Ad Nauseam past 4 life with Empty the Warrens still in your deck, you just have to accept that you'll lose a marginal% of the time if you can't wait to untap in order to win the game.

EtW suffers a bit from the Chrome Mox Syndrome of being lackluster after turn 2 (except against decks like pure Tempo or Miracles if drawn naturally) and in addition being less likely to come active T1 via Infernal Tutor anyways, if I cut the Chrome Moxen as I need Black/Red in T1 that way (which essentially means that we're talking about configurations with LED or Petal + additional Ritual/Rite on top of the required ability to accelerate into Infernal in the first place).

@Pelikandu, I don't think Chrome Mox adds enough to T1 win% in order to bother with it just for D&T and Co, yes we're more reliant on the coin flip in order to win the match but we're more consistent vs every Island.dec in the meta and that is far more important. I honestly think that if you want to beat D&T that consistently with speed then you are better off playing 4 Empty the Warrens in your 75.

I can only support a) the analysis of T1 win % in which Mox is THAT important, b) the irrelevance of a) because of the marginal number of D&T & Co. in the metagame and c) the importance of the focus on island.dec.

D&T, Miracles, Tempo, MUD, etc. are all matchups I really want to try battling with the multi-EtW approach. I don't think the low-investment belcher mode is totally off here.

I've played a lot of different lists over the week and I liked how mine performed over the weekend even tho' I only went 3-2, it feels like it's really in a Goldilocks Zone of consistency vs speed and I think a lot of you need to stop being so stubborn and start playing other people's lists in order to get a feel for what you do and don't like about certain card choices. I know I wouldn't have come across my current list if I hadn't bother to actually test the stuff other people were talking about so I could integrate what was worth keeping.

Due to that I'll durdle with yours and Bryants mid-week.

[Final Fortune]

A couple of thoughts,

What if it's not a question of Swamp vs Bayou but a black mana producing land vs a Fetchland? If we want Fetchlands more than any other land in our starting hand, then why not play Fetchland number 9?

I know what you're saying about auto-Duressing game 1, but on the play it's difficult to know whether or not it is or it isn't the right move so I tend to err. on collecting information, removing threats and protecting my manabase in one move. It may be a bit of a wet blanket tho, I'm going to try cutting Swamp for another Fetchland and see how much I really miss it. I've been thinking about whether or not SBing Basic lands is a better strategy than MDing them for awhile now, and considering how awful Xantid Swarm has been to me it might be time to try that out as an anti-Wasteland strategy

[Admiral_Arzar]

A couple of thoughts,

What if it's not a question of Swamp vs Bayou but a black mana producing land vs a Fetchland? If we want Fetchlands more than any other land in our starting hand, then why not play Fetchland number 9?

I know what you're saying about auto-Duressing game 1, but on the play it's difficult to know whether or not it is or it isn't the right move so I tend to err. on collecting information, removing threats and protecting my manabase in one move. It may be a bit of a wet blanket tho, I'm going to try cutting Swamp for another Fetchland and see how much I really miss it. I've been thinking about whether or not SBing Basic lands is a better strategy than MDing them for awhile now, and considering how awful Xantid Swarm has been to me it might be time to try that out as an anti-Wasteland strategy

Full disclosure: It's been a while since I've played this deck. Now that I have that out of the way, I'm intrigued by the potential of SB basics. Like Lemnear, I usually fought Wasteland by just slow-rolling with fetches until I had something relevant to do (i.e. win or cast Brainstorm with a good chance of digging into the win). Sideboard basics sounds pretty solid in Delver matchups or against DnT/MUD because (a) you want manasources that don't get Wasted, and (b) you want more lands to ensure you hit land drops. Most of my losses (with stuff like Jund also, not just this deck) to Delver and DnT stem from drawing insufficient lands in the face of Waste/Daze or Port/Thalia.

On the Xantid Swarm point, I honestly feel like that card hasn't been good in a very long time. It was cool against UWx Blade decks that had to side out removal, and funny vs. Reanimator or Sneak. Currently, the blue decks in the format either possess locks that don't care about Swarm (CB + other hate permanents i.e. Meddling Mage), play lots of red cards, or are combo decks that just win immediately when they cast Show and Tell (Sneak at least gave us a turn to attack with Xantid in most cases, Omni does not). Thus Swarm does not seem good at all against most of the decks we want anti-blue countermeasures against, unless it's also paired with an ultra-fast hand on our part. In my experience getting the right protection and the turn 2 win just doesn't happen often enough to be relevant postboard.

[Lemnear]

A couple of thoughts,

What if it's not a question of Swamp vs Bayou but a black mana producing land vs a Fetchland? If we want Fetchlands more than any other land in our starting hand, then why not play Fetchland number 9?

I know what you're saying about auto-Duressing game 1, but on the play it's difficult to know whether or not it is or it isn't the right move so I tend to err. on collecting information, removing threats and protecting my manabase in one move. It may be a bit of a wet blanket tho, I'm going to try cutting Swamp for another Fetchland and see how much I really miss it. I've been thinking about whether or not SBing Basic lands is a better strategy than MDing them for awhile now, and considering how awful Xantid Swarm has been to me it might be time to try that out as an anti-Wasteland strategy

Another option to consider if you think you can get away with the sole green dual. More important remains the question, if you feel good letting the Swamp go. Small personal question: Had you ever felt like casting Duress G1 T1 was a complete waste of time as your opponent had nothing relevant at all?

@Arzar
I would prefer this FULL ANT MODE any day of the week, if the alternative would be running Carpets. I'll keep this in mind, but personally I hate SB mana in general. I guess Bryants recent 12-lands build with 2/2 Moxen/Cabals would be a list to adapt SB basics

[Admiral_Arzar]

Another option to consider if you think you can get away with the sole green dual. More important remains the question, if you feel good letting the Swamp go. Small personal question: Had you ever felt like casting Duress G1 T1 was a complete waste of time as your opponent had nothing relevant at all?

Yes. Then again, there were also those games where my opponent is on combo and that turn 1 Duress prevented me from immediately dying, so I guess it goes both ways.

@Arzar
I would prefer this FULL ANT MODE any day of the week, if the alternative would be running Carpets. I'll keep this in mind, but personally I hate SB mana in general. I guess Bryants recent 12-lands build with 2/2 Moxen/Cabals would be a list to adapt SB basics

Carpet is interesting, but it's another card that I rarely had success with (in either this deck or ANT). It was bonkers in SI, but that deck was a completely different animal. Another argument for sideboard basics that I didn't think to address in my previous post is that if you are cutting Chrome Moxen, your "indestructible" permanent mana source list gets quite low. Early Chrome Moxen were always a good way to consistently have mana to cantrip or play discard spells against Waste.dec.

[Final Fortune]

The other thing is that I haven't seen Reanimator in awhile now, and considering Dark Petition has solved the problem of not having a reliable win condition off of Burning Wish I can't understand why I'm playing Xantid Swarm at all. Why not just SB the 4th Abrupt Decay or a Pyroblast if we want another card against Miracles?

Yeah, I was thinking a SB Island could be strong in match ups like RUG, BUG, UR; being able to fetch a basic on the play might be a thing vs Stifle. I like this idea a lot more than SBing in Carpet of Flowers, just SB in Island and Swamp, improve your mulligans and prepare for the middlegame. Another "crazy" idea is cutting Chain of Vapour for another X/G land and just using Abrupt Decay as your universal hate vs prison decks. And if we're talking about "crazy" ideas, I was thinking that 1 way to justify MD Bayou may be cutting the Void Snare for Reverent Silence. In theory, it'd be better vs Miracles game 1 because if you actually resolve Burning Wish that cards 4cc means it'll probably resolve as well so at least the MD Bayou supports Volcanic Island in being able to blow up all the white creatures or all the enchantments on the board.

Edit: No, I've never felt like casting Duress was a complete waste of time because now I know my opponent has nothing at all, but my opponent having nothing at all is pretty rare in any match up where I'm not already face rolling my keyboard to victory. Those Swamp, Discard T1 Empty the Warrens T2 YOLO! scenarios are pretty common for me vs aggro-control.

Hmm, I'm starting to like the idea of MD Bayou, SB Reverent Silence, SB X/G Dual and SB Island and cutting the Xantid Swarms and bounce to make space.

[Bryant Cook]

The other thing is that I haven't seen Reanimator in awhile now, and considering Dark Petition has solved the problem of not having a reliable win condition off of Burning Wish I can't understand why I'm playing Xantid Swarm at all. Why not just SB the 4th Abrupt Decay or a Pyroblast if we want another card against Miracles?

At this point, Xantid is more for Miracles/Omni than Reanimator.

Yeah, I was thinking a SB Island could be strong in match ups like RUG, BUG, UR; being able to fetch a basic on the play might be a thing vs Stifle. I like this idea a lot more than SBing in Carpet of Flowers, just SB in Island and Swamp, improve your mulligans and prepare for the middlegame. Another "crazy" idea is cutting Chain of Vapour for another X/G land and just using Abrupt Decay as your universal hate vs prison decks. And if we're talking about "crazy" ideas, I was thinking that 1 way to justify MD Bayou may be cutting the SB Blue sorcery bounce card and playing that Green sorcery destroy all enchantments for free if you control a Forest card instead. In theory it'd be better vs Miracles game 1 because if you actually resolve Burning Wish that cards 4cc? means it'll probably resolve as well so at least the MD Bayou supports Volcanic Island in being able to blow up all the white creatures or all the enchantments on the board.

After reading the last few pages, you're posting some of my thoughts from a few months ago. I picked up a pimp Reverent Silence and mentioned it to Peter, tried cutting Green (unsuccessfully as Wipeaway/Pyroblast takes up the same amount of slots while being good in less match-ups). I was toying with cutting Chain of Vapor last week and said something to Kai about it.

Where we disagree is that I dont mind Chrome Mox where people seem to hate it. It actually does create a large amount of turn one comboing due to the ability to Cantrip into something and then win or just flat out make the second initial mana needed.

[Final Fortune]

At this point, Xantid is more for Miracles/Omni than Reanimator.



After reading the last few pages, you're posting some of my thoughts from a few months ago. I picked up a pimp Reverent Silence and mentioned it to Peter, tried cutting Green (unsuccessfully as Wipeaway/Pyroblast takes up the same amount of slots while being good in less match-ups). I was toying with cutting Chain of Vapor last week and said something to Kai about it.

Where we disagree is that I dont mind Chrome Mox where people seem to hate it. It actually does create a large amount of turn one comboing due to the ability to Cantrip into something and then win or just flat out make the second initial mana needed.

Yeah, but in the case of Miracles/Omni is Xantid Swarm better than a Pyroblast? Should all of our removal be aimed at Island.dec for stuff like Counterbalance, Meddling Mage and Vendilion Clique and just leave Abrupt Decay supported by 2 X/G lands and 1-2 basics as removal for whatever else?

I'm thinking,

Lands

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou

SB

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Thoughtseize
1 Reverent Silence
1 Massacre
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Pyroblast
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 ???

I figure the U producing lands stay in the SB because they're too slow game 1, and I don't really see the marginal utility in having 2 Bayou over a Bayou and a Tropical Island post-board since going off on T2 is no longer the primary consideration when you're SBing for hate.

Edit: I don't hate Chrome Mox, she's just not my go to girl for Friday night any more. Seriously, I wouldn't sweat it if somebody cut the Rain of Filth for a single Chrome Mox or decided to SB both of the green duals and ran 2 even.

[Bryant Cook]

Yeah, but in the case of Miracles/Omni is Xantid Swarm better than a Pyroblast? Should all of our removal be aimed at Island.dec for stuff like Counterbalance, Meddling Mage and Vendilion Clique and just leave Abrupt Decay supported by 2 X/G lands and 1-2 basics as removal for whatever else?

I'm thinking,

Lands

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou

SB

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Thoughtseize
1 Reverent Silence
1 Massacre
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Pyroblast
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 ???

I figure the U producing lands stay in the SB because they're too slow game 1, and I don't really see the marginal utility in having 2 Bayou over a Bayou and a Tropical Island post-board since going off on T2 is no longer the primary consideration when you're SBing for hate.

Edit: I don't hate Chrome Mox, she's just not my go to girl for Friday night any more. Seriously, I wouldn't sweat it if somebody cut the Rain of Filth for a single Chrome Mox or decided to SB both of the green duals and ran 2 even.

Are you no longer a fan of the Basic Swamp? I'll try siding lands versus tempo plan, all it would require is me adding in a Tropical to the sideboard (Cutting the chains in the meantime). Also, you're at 14 lands and siding two more, doesn't that seem like a lot?

[Final Fortune]

Are you no longer a fan of the Basic Swamp? I'll try siding lands versus tempo plan, all it would require is me adding in a Tropical to the sideboard (Cutting the chains in the meantime). Also, you're at 14 lands and siding two more, doesn't that seem like a lot?

This is just conjecture, even tho' I like Swamp, I think there might be a problem with Swamp compared to Island in the sense that Swamp loses value as the matchup progresses because the previous games provided the necessary information to know whether or not you were playing vs aggro-control, control or combo and thus how hard you need to push your deck for an early win, if you need to disrupt your opponent before T2 and whether or not you can expose your manabase.

If Swamps principle goal is to collect information with Duress at no risk to Wasteland on the play, the marginal utility of Swamp decreases as X games are played.

Let's say we know we are playing vs BUG, RUG, UR and have to choose between Swamp or Island as our basic land, with that information already in hand would you still choose Swamp? I know I wouldn't, because those decks have no permanent based hate so you can hold on to your discard and spend your mana to cantrip and build a manabase unmolested by Wasteland.

So if we are choosing which Fetchlands to MD and which Basiclands to SB, it seems clear that MD Island is too slow, MD Swamp has diminishing returns post-board and Island is better vs aggro-control. So with that in mind, if we are going to SB a basic land, then Island is the clear choice. And if Island is the clear choice over Swamp post-board, our fetchlands should favour Island over Swamp as well. There's also the problem that Bloodstained Mire does not tutor for Tropical Island, and I do not think we want to play 2xBayou in our 75 just for Swamp's sake. Furthermore, Polluted Delta, Swamp, Duress is a tell we're on combo while Blue fetchland, Island, Cantrip is not.

Assumming space is an issue, the manabase I posted makes more sense to me because Bayou gives Burning Wish utility vs Miracles and and a combo color to try to win as fast as possible. Island is replacing Bayou vs aggro-control, I'm not SBing in all of the lands vs aggro-control at the moment because G mana has no utility. I'm not SBing in Island vs Miracles as opposed to Tropical Island for 15 lands post-board. I suppose I could just add lands to add lands vs aggro-control and see if that works out, but that doesn't seem appealing.

I'm not dead set on anything, maybe I'll end up playing 4 Polluted Delta, 4 Misty Rainforest, 3 Underground Sea, 2 Volcanic Island, 2 Chrome Mox and just cut 2 Chrome Mox for SB Bayou and Tropical Island vs Miracles or 1 Chrome Mox for Island vs aggro-control. Right now, I don't practically know how much MD Bayou and SB Reverent Silence affects the Miracles match up or if 4 Abrupt Decay, 2 G Dual Lands and SB Massacre is enough to deal with D&T and MUD or if I even care about those match ups enough to bother.

Practically speaking, I think there is a lot of stuff that just needs to be tested to be sure of anything. All I know is I want Chrome Mox gone post-board, so if having 2 G Dual Lands or a SB Island is a possible way to do that, then I'm going to test it. Or hell, maybe we just end up with 4 Polluted Delta, 2 Bloodstained Mire, 2 Misty Rainforest, 1 Island, 1 Swamp, 1 Bayou in the MD like ANT, I honestly have no clue ATM other than I think I need to question whether or not I should just be defending my manabase with only Fetchlands and playing more conservatively with my discard.

Sorry if you were looking for a more concrete opinion, I'm tinkering a lot right now and trying to take as many view points as I can into consideration.

Edit: I just went thru' your updated SBing suggestions, if you are SBing Cabal Ritual out vs aggro-control then I think that card is probably not worth playing at all.

[Bryant Cook]

What I'm left wondering now is if Cabal Ritual is better off as additional lands, don't get me wrong, I've been a super big fan of Cabal Ritual over the last few weeks. But I think I would rather have Chrome Mox against Delver decks than Cabal Ritual, which means it would save two potential sideboard slots.

[Final Fortune]

What I'm left wondering now is if Cabal Ritual is better off as additional lands, don't get me wrong, I've been a super big fan of Cabal Ritual over the last few weeks. But I think I would rather have Chrome Mox against Delver decks than Cabal Ritual, which means it would save two potential sideboard slots.

I've always had 8 Fetchlands, but ever since I added the 3rd Underground Sea I haven't looked back - 13 to 14 lands are awesome for consistency. My less than stellar performance with 2xCabal Ritual vs BUG is what made me re-evaluate Rain of Filth, it sucks less than you'd think as the 9th Ritual if you end up at ~14 lands. Also considering you were SBing in Thoughtseize in every aggro-control matchup, that probably tells you that 2 Duress is sketchy.

As an aside two questions, how bad do you think it is not to have a wishable answer to Gaddok Teeg or Chalice of the Void in this meta? And what do you think causes more mulligans, only drawing a Swamp or an Island? Another argument that came up against Swamp is that even tho' you can disrupt and combo off on it Swamp doesn't really give you card velocity like Island does by just trying to cantrip into your second land.

[Bryant Cook]

I've always had 8 Fetchlands, but ever since I added the 3rd Underground Sea I haven't looked back - 13 to 14 lands are awesome for consistency. My less than stellar performance with 2xCabal Ritual vs BUG is what made me re-evaluate Rain of Filth, it sucks less than you'd think as the 9th Ritual if you end up at ~14 lands. Also considering you were SBing in Thoughtseize in every aggro-control matchup, that probably tells you that 2 Duress is sketchy.

As an aside two questions, how bad do you think it is not to have a wishable answer to Gaddok Teeg or Chalice of the Void in this meta? And what do you think causes more mulligans, only drawing a Swamp or an Island? Another argument that came up against Swamp is that even tho' you can disrupt and combo off on it Swamp doesn't really give you card velocity like Island does by just trying to cantrip into your second land.

I was only siding in Thoughtseize as a way to get Cabal Ritual out of the deck as it's difficult to resolve. I tested Rain of Filth – I severely disappointed, I want to stay a fast combo deck, Rain is the exact opposite of that, I think it's only barely acceptable in ANT because they're using it as an enabler for faster Cabal Rituals. I would run Cabal Ritual over RoF every single time.

Are you talking about Void Snare? I don't consider it an answer to Chalice of the Void, I do consider it a catch-all answer that can answer Teeg/Leyline.

I think Swamp is much more valuable as Island sets you up for later kills, which isn't what I'm trying to do. Discard spell into even Empty seems better to me than waiting and letting the opponent set up. I think you're not realizing that there's only eight blue spells in the deck, we're not chaining cantrips in most scenarios. If you have basic Island as your only mana source due to Wasteland, chances are that you're very far off from combing. Where Swamp + laying a Volcanic could mean death.

I'm just spitballing a list here, but thoughts?

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp

2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Thoughtseize
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Dark Petition

I'm wondering if it should be -1 Decay -1 Thoughtseize/-1Massacre +2 Pyroblast. With almost no Death + Taxes, it's hard to justify Massacre. All though, with Pyroblast added, Seize loses some of it's appeal.

EDIT::

This is closer to what I would probably run:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp

2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pyroblast
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Dark Petition

[Admiral_Arzar]

What I'm left wondering now is if Cabal Ritual is better off as additional lands, don't get me wrong, I've been a super big fan of Cabal Ritual over the last few weeks. But I think I would rather have Chrome Mox against Delver decks than Cabal Ritual, which means it would save two potential sideboard slots.

I never liked Cabal Ritual in TES for two reasons - we don't fill our yard or generally durdle as much as ANT, and Cabal Ritual is super awkward against soft countermagic in a deck with relatively few lands to help play around the aforementioned cards. On the other hand, both extra lands and Chrome Moxen are excellent against soft counters.

I'm just spitballing a list here, but thoughts?

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp

2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Thoughtseize
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Dark Petition

I'm wondering if it should be -1 Decay -1 Thoughtseize/-1Massacre +2 Pyroblast. With almost no Death + Taxes, it's hard to justify Massacre. All though, with Pyroblast added, Seize loses some of it's appeal.

This list seems solid, it's a nice medium between the older all-in lists and the more recent, slower lists with Cabal Ritual. You're right about DnT - both it and Stoneblade are down right now, the issue for me is that Massacre is only 1 sideboard slot and it's a slot that actually destroys those decks. Not to mention having a wishable out to Meddling Mage is pretty good right now. Of course Pyroblast also answers the Mage so there is that.

[Final Fortune]

I think both lists are fine, but I would be interested in seeing whether or not Void Snare could be replaced by Reverent Silence as an answer to Leyline of Sanctity and Counterbalance since Miracles doesn't run a lot of 2cc or 4cc cards to counter either anymore, a resolved Gaddok Teeg will just have to be GG for awhile.

Yeah, I'm having similar feelings about Island being too slow for the MD, I think I'm going to try 8 Fetch, 3 Sea, 2 Volc, 1 Bayou, 1 Chrome Mox and SB it to see how much of a difference it makes vs aggro-control when I bring it in for Bayou. I've also been considering 2 Mox, SBing Bayou with Tropical Island, not playing any basics at all and just using Misty Rainforest in order to be able to choose between Bayou and Tropical Island vs Miracles.

I don't like the idea of cutting Massacre regardless of the state of D&T and Blade as long as Meddling Mage is a thing, I see Pyroblast as more of a replacement for Xantid Swarm in the Miracles match up.

[Pelikanudo]

@Lemnear:

I'm sorry to just throw my ideas and sure maybe sometimes they're out of context I try to reduce and compress everything and expose some scenarios which I find relevant or examples of why I take one direction or other - I Am A Fucking God Programmer and I am so used to guarranty facts that I can not conceive to expose specific contexts withouth going in a deeper discussion MTG is not Maths - I just try to make a general idea. Anyway I liked a lot your post - I don't want to be offensive but I spent a good time reading it and laughing at job! Thanks All I can say is that you are somehow right about your complaints.

I'll expose the following idea: Ok vs wastelandsBlue.deck you say RofFilth is good, I cannot disagree on this - it is like a D.Ritual and much better than CRitual vs this archetype but the lack of C.M makes your A.N weaker needing again some mana floating or to stay at a higher life totals which is relevant vs agro also and not having EtW in your 60 makes the deck slower - EtW has been an allstar in my 1st matchups vs almost everything and I remember when Bahamut for first time suggested it I was the first one to disagree completely.

Even I would still play D.R. IF Dark Petition didn't exist.

In my long experience with the deck I believe I reached at least the perfect 60 which at least is fine for me and I try to beat now my unique bad match up which is miracles. but all I can say is that I have no need to change anything in the 60 maybe the next try I could do is the list Bryant recently posted except -1 bayou +3rd C.M. - which is something I've always had in mind but again I would not prefer to lack the 7th discard.

@To whom may interest:
my proposed list could be something like:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Void Snare
1 Duress
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 bayou
1 Dark Petition
1 Massacre??


my current list is like this but -1 massacre = +1 piroclasm and gemstones and no fetches.... 12 lands and +1 duress

[LDX]

Are you talking about Void Snare? I don't consider it an answer to Chalice of the Void, I do consider it a catch-all answer that can answer Teeg/Leyline.

But how often can you actually cast Void Snare to hit Leyline/Teeg without managing Chalice? It seems you have to bypass Chalice @ 1 to do that anyway, or at least, I haven't been in any situation where I could hit any of these without fighting a Chalice first. Elves! being the exception, but you know what the Elves! matchup is anyway.

[Bryant Cook]

But how often can you actually cast Void Snare to hit Leyline/Teeg without managing Chalice? It seems you have to bypass Chalice @ 1 to do that anyway, or at least, I haven't been in any situation where I could hit any of these without fighting a Chalice first. Elves! being the exception, but you know what the Elves! matchup is anyway.

Omnishow + Sneak don't play either Chalice. Same could be said for Maverick. Meanwhile, the other two cards could be in those decks.

[Final Fortune]

@Lemnear:

I'm sorry to just throw my ideas and sure maybe sometimes they're out of context I try to reduce and compress everything and expose some scenarios which I find relevant or examples of why I take one direction or other - I Am A Fucking God Programmer and I am so used to guarranty facts that I can not conceive to expose specific contexts withouth going in a deeper discussion MTG is not Maths - I just try to make a general idea. Anyway I liked a lot your post - I don't want to be offensive but I spent a good time reading it and laughing at job! Thanks All I can say is that you are somehow right about your complaints.

I'll expose the following idea: Ok vs wastelandsBlue.deck you say RofFilth is good, I cannot disagree on this - it is like a D.Ritual and much better than CRitual vs this archetype but the lack of C.M makes your A.N weaker needing again some mana floating or to stay at a higher life totals which is relevant vs agro also and not having EtW in your 60 makes the deck slower - EtW has been an allstar in my 1st matchups vs almost everything and I remember when Bahamut for first time suggested it I was the first one to disagree completely.

Even I would still play D.R. IF Dark Petition didn't exist.

In my long experience with the deck I believe I reached at least the perfect 60 which at least is fine for me and I try to beat now my unique bad match up which is miracles. but all I can say is that I have no need to change anything in the 60 maybe the next try I could do is the list Bryant recently posted except -1 bayou +3rd C.M. - which is something I've always had in mind but again I would not prefer to lack the 7th discard.

@To whom may interest:
my proposed list could be something like:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Void Snare
1 Duress
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 bayou
1 Dark Petition
1 Massacre??


my current list is like this but -1 massacre = +1 piroclasm and gemstones and no fetches.... 12 lands and +1 duress

Gemstone Mine is terrible, we're not casting Silence anymore, so why do you want to expose your manabase to Wasteland so much? Are you so bent on gold fishing that you can't appreciate the added consistency of shuffling after cantrips and just being a more consistent T2 deck? Cutting Chrome Mox to 2 isn't that big of a deal for the 3rd Duress or the 14th land, that said I think I'm going to play without Swamp for the 3rd Underground Sea and Blue Fetchlands for SB Bayou and Tropical Island because I like having the SB lands to replace the MD Chrome Mox post-board for Miracles. 2 Chrome Mox feels like a good number because you can maintain IMS parody by SBing the 2 most situational lands in the deck.

[Dr_D]

But how often can you actually cast Void Snare to hit Leyline/Teeg without managing Chalice? It seems you have to bypass Chalice @ 1 to do that anyway, or at least, I haven't been in any situation where I could hit any of these without fighting a Chalice first. Elves! being the exception, but you know what the Elves! matchup is anyway.

According to your reports you're playing in a meta where people pack extra storm hate for you, so in a more "normal" (obviously depends on your area) meta, decks that run Leyline/Teeg don't run chalice as well. In my local meta nobody runs leyline, and the only deck with Teeg/chalice is 4c loam.