[Deck] The Rock [Archive] - Page 2

Incinerator

04-30-2009, 02:45 PM

4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Sakura Tribe Elder
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Vindicate
4x Pernicious Deed
4x Troll Ascetic
2x Eternal Witness
3x Loxodon Hierarch
2x Spiritmonger

2x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Windswept Heath
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Bayou
3x Savannah
2x Scrubland
3x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Plains

SB:
4x Gaddock Teeg
4x Krosan Grip
4x Extirpate
1x Loxodon Hierarch
2x Massacre

Made top-4 split with this deck again last night. Only change was -1 Gaddock Teeg, +1 Massacre on the board. I took off a few weeks to play Stax while it was combo and zoo city, but after the Counterbalance stuff came back I had to bust out the Rock again.

Match 1, Zombie tribal. This was a really close match.
Game 1 he gets Dark Ritual into Graveborn Muse and plays lots of dudes with a couple of lords. He gets me down to 4 before I Deed the board and get 2 Loxodon Hierarchs and replay one dead one off of Eternal Witness to win.
Game 2 he gets 2nd turn Graveborn again, but I get multiple swords and deed the board again. Troll Ascetic wrecks all his spot removal.
1-0

Match 2, Goyf Sligh.
Game 1 he gets 11 lands and I swords a creature in response to Price of Progress. If I remember right, it was lethal to both of us before Swords.
Game 2 2x Price of Progress and a Fireblast I think, after a few burns earlier. I don't remember the exact combination that did it, but it was like 16 points in a turn.
Game 3 I'm at 9, play Loxodon Hierarch with 3 non-basics out, he plays double Price in response.
1-1

Match 3, Re-Animator
Game 1 he reanimates something big and shroudy. Empyrial Archangel maybe, but I can't remember.
Game 2 I Extirpate his first target and hit one of the reanimate effects.
Game 3 he Show and Tells in Twilight Shepherd, but he read it wrong and doesn't get the crazy bombs in out of his graveyard. I sword it and swing for lethal with 2x Troll Ascetic and the Loxodon Hierarch that I put into play with his Show and Tell.
2-1

Match 4, Gamekeeper Salvagers combo
Game 1 he's totally mana-screwed. I think he got a plains and I vindicated it.
Game 2 I extirpate a bunch of stuff and Swords his Gamekeepers before he can get the combo going.
3-1

Match 5, Enchantress
Game 1 he gets mana screwed, which I make worse with 2-3 Vindicates (I think it was 2 plus Eternal Witness), Deed the board away and swing.
Game 2 I kill Enchantress turn 2 with Massacre (!!), play dudes, Vindicate and K-Grip multiple things and end up Extirpating Solitary Confinement in reponse to Sterling Grove activation. He gets Karmic Justice but I swing for lethal in 2 more turns anyway.
4-1

Top-8, Counterbalance control with Dark Confidant and Daze
Game 1 he mulligans and misses first land drop. I Thoughtseize and see 4x Force of Will, Dark Confidant and something else. Krosan Grip I think. I take the Bob and decide to 2 for 1 him on the Forces. Creatures do it over the next couple of turns. He scoops after I resolve Spiritmonger.
Game 2 This was a really good game. I got multiple Grip/Vindicate/Deed and get around Counterbalance most of the time, but he keeps swiping my dudes with Shackles and Sowers. In the end I Extirpate Top, Sower and Swords to Plowshares, and he ends up scooping once I play Sakura Tribe Elder which makes exactly lethal the next turn.

Top 4 split and I got some new sleeves and Aggro Loam stuff with the winnings. :)

DragoFireheart

05-04-2009, 01:38 PM

Has anyone tried to implement Pridemages into this deck?

Pulp_Fiction

05-05-2009, 03:32 PM

To weak and unnecessary, every creature (aside from STE but he serves his purpose) needs to make a serious impact on the game or put the opponent on a quick clock. While the utility is great, it is largely unneeded in a deck that can now run 8x Vindicates and 4x Deed!

nix

05-05-2009, 04:38 PM

a deck that can now run 8x Vindicates and 4x Deed!
i would almost consider it 16x Vindicate, because :
4x Vindicate
4x Mortify
4x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Putrify

although i would never run all 16, and probably no more than 10

coraz86

05-08-2009, 03:31 PM

Rock is all about slowly building up card advantage though. You don't want a million one-for-one effects (especially not, as all of your 16 Vindicates are, at three mana). Some obviously are necessary; you really want something like StP or Wretched Banquet to kill Lackey, because having no answer to Lackey is like trying to play baseball with no outfield.

You really want to maximize things like Deed though, or (less obviously) like the Finks/Hierarch slot. Finks can be a four- or five-for-one, played correctly; he takes down at least one blocker, if not two (against goblins or something), and he puts your life total another Fireblast higher. Even if they're not playing burn, that's still two turns of Mongoose/Factory beats. Hierarch likewise boosts your life total, and there are few enough four-power dudes in the format that he'll eat a few goblins/Geese or some removal spell (and, since he sacrifices for something, Hierarch can dodge StP and be re-used via Stronghold or Genesis). Little things like that add up over the course of a game.

On that note, has anyone tried Gerrard's Verdict? Stupid good against storm, for instance, pretty good against a lot of other things. If you're running StP and Hierarch anyway, it's worth a try. I usually stick with Duress and Thoughtseize for the sake of my mana curve, but there are a number of times when that's just fallen short.

DragoFireheart

05-08-2009, 07:36 PM

DragoFireheart

05-08-2009, 07:38 PM

Rock is all about slowly building up card advantage though. You don't want a million one-for-one effects (especially not, as all of your 16 Vindicates are, at three mana).

Hence why I am implementing Glittering Wish: I can decide if i need to play the aggro role or the control role ala deciding if I want to grab Deed or not. There are enough multi-color cards to make Glittering Wish worth getting.

coraz86

05-08-2009, 10:02 PM

Hence why I am implementing Glittering Wish: I can decide if i need to play the aggro role or the control role ala deciding if I want to grab Deed or not. There are enough multi-color cards to make Glittering Wish worth getting.

Just popped your list open and had a few questions.
--Your list calls for seven Pernicious Deeds. I love Deed as much as anyone does, but that seems a little excessive. Plus I would shit my pants and walk home if you found anyone willing to play against that.
--Why the Scarab? You're already running Stronghold, so you don't need the recursion, and that can't be your best card-drawing mechanism.
--I have never wanted Unearth in a constructed deck. Is it really better than....anything else? Unearth is awful in the early game, because it requires a creature to be in the yard, and there are better options (Stronghold, Genesis, even Recurring Nightmare) in the late game. That's a good spot for Smother, or a few Shriekmaws and one or two Life from the Loam (which would let you put a Worm Harvest in the board to wish for).
--In what situation is it better to tutor for Gaddock Teeg? In the matchups I can see him being good it, you want to drop him turn two all the time.
--You only have one Savannah and one Scrubland. Is that a good idea given the prevalence of Wasteland and the amount of white in your deck? Likewise, for the kind of curve you're rolling, nine fetchlands vs. only fourteen lands that make mana seems like an awkward ratio. (You could use a couple Wastelands or a Dust Bowl yourself.)

I like Glittering Wish, I do. Just some stuff for ya to chew on.
You might also think about Living Wish, your deck seems to lend itself better to that. That gets you Kataki, Shriekmaw/Bone Shredder, Rootrunner (hilarious v. Landstill with Stronghold), Harmonic Sliver, another Stronghold....in your place and with your idea, I might go that route instead. I haven't played that in a year or so (which means it would be largely conjecture, I couldn't offer any sort of primer) or I'd start a thread for it.

DragoFireheart

05-08-2009, 10:22 PM

My current list in Essential Magic is out of date. I need to update it.

My current playlist doesn't have Deeds main deck, so I obtain them from my wishes. It runs more discard and spot-removal.

4eak

05-23-2009, 11:44 AM

Has anyone tried out Lord of Extinction?

Here's a pile that has surprised our group a few times. LoE gets stupid really fast.

// Lands
3 [U] Scrubland
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [P3] Plains (3)
1 [BD] Forest (1)
1 [9E] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [U] Savannah
3 [U] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [ARB] Lord of Extinction
4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed

If you can pay the 5cc, which isn't all that difficult in TheRock, you'll have a serious fatty.

peace,
4eak

Waikiki

05-23-2009, 11:48 AM

I play lord in my train wreck variant which is far more controlling. it uses beseech the queen as silverbullets approach and the lord is one of them (together with staff/haunting echoes, drain life etc)

Incinerator

05-23-2009, 06:44 PM

My first reaction is that I don't want to run any other creatures that make graveyard hate worthwhile to board in against me. I don't have the Hymns and run more creatures than this, but only the Goyfs and 2x Eternal Witness are graveyard reliant at all.

I run 2x Volrath's Strongholds as well, so often times I get some pretty broken graveyard interactions, but usually not enough for people to bring in hate for it. Lord would definitely swing in Relics for anyone running them, and that's sad times for a lot more than him. :frown:

It does seem worth experimenting with though. I'll have to do some playtesting to see if he works out to be more big and broken than Spiritmonger in the 5 mana slot.

Clark Kant

05-23-2009, 11:32 PM

A friend of mine plays this list, and does rather well with it. Any suggestions for him...

19 Lands (Lots of Fetches)
1 Tomb of Urami
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Mealstrom Pulse
4 Armageddon

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Terravore
4 Lord of Extinction

Once again, he does great with his list. But do you have any suggestions for him? He did try out Tarmogoyf but consistently found them smaller than his other threats.

He accelerates really fast, has a lot of ways to answer his opponents threats and disrupt them, then lays down a fatty and Geddons for the win. Or sometimes he fetches a Tomb of Urami with KotR and beats down with both for the win.

sdematt

05-24-2009, 03:12 AM

I've been using Lord of Extinction to much success. What's great is he gets so big so quickly once he hits the table, since you're blowing crap up anyway. If he does get removed (usually via Swords), you get to gain a nice 10+ life (my record is 34)

4eak

05-24-2009, 03:50 AM

@ Incinerator

My first reaction is that I don't want to run any other creatures that make graveyard hate worthwhile to board in against me.

I hear ya. Although, if you run Volrath's and Witness alongside Goyfs, any decent opponent will be siding Relic's in immediately. Like Goyf and Tombstalker, this guy hits so hard it might just be worth the risk.

It does seem worth experimenting with though. I'll have to do some playtesting to see if he works out to be more big and broken than Spiritmonger in the 5 mana slot.

Head and shoulders better than Spiritmonger, especially in heavy control builds. In fact, because he isn't picky about card types like Goyf, you'll find LoE a much better topdeck and a better card in the face of hate. Although, he dies to a full relic activation, it is also easier to build up his P/T midgame than it is for Goyf.

@ Clark Kant

A friend of mine plays this list, and does rather well with it. Any suggestions for him...

That is an interesting build, no doubt. Ravages of War was my first thought, but at second glance, I think Geddon isn't worth losing Deed. I'm not convinced losing Deed is worth the aggro power you get from Vore.

@sdematt

If he does get removed (usually via Swords), you get to gain a nice 10+ life (my record is 34)

Hehe, nice record. Surprisingly, the lifegain from opposing swords has swung several games for us in testing. They either die in 1-2 turns from this card, or when they answer it with Swords, you get a serious amount of life buffer. Not exactly win-win, but unlike Stifle-Nought 2 for 1's, an StP on this card can benefit you. Admittedly, that sounds odd, but we've had games where that mattered.

peace,
4eak

sdematt

05-24-2009, 09:51 AM

4eak, I'd be interested in seeing your list/sharing mine with you if you're interested, as I see we're probably working towards the same goal.

I'd also have to agree with the fact that a Swords on Lord won me the game; usually, in a dead-heat, I lay him down to put the pressure on, in hopes that he gets Swords so I get the buffer. Then, all you have to do (since by this time you've got the manabase set up) is enter into top-deck mode, which is usually better for you (I mean, if they draw Phage, and have Anger in the yard, then no, but when does THAt happen?)

-Matt

DragoFireheart

05-26-2009, 02:59 PM

Head and shoulders better than Spiritmonger, especially in heavy control builds. In fact, because he isn't picky about card types like Goyf, you'll find LoE a much better topdeck and a better card in the face of hate. Although, he dies to a full relic activation, it is also easier to build up his P/T midgame than it is for Goyf.

He can get huge, but so can Spiritmonger. Monger also won't die to random chump blockers, can avoid Protection from "X" color effects, and doesn't rely on the graveyard. If LoE had trample you'd have a better case, but he doesn't.

Just a quick question: how does this deck handle counter/top? Land destruction / moon effects? Combo decks?

Berzerked

05-26-2009, 03:48 PM

Just a quick question: how does this deck handle counter/top? Land destruction / moon effects? Combo decks?

I guess it depends on the build, but in general:

Thoughtseize/Duress/Therapy can answer these preemptively

Deed/Vindicate/Pulse for CB

BoP/STE, possibly LftL, and plenty of basics for Moons/LD

Eternal Witness in case stuff gets countered

Also, most of the deck operates at a curve higher than what CB/Top can usually handle (3cc+)

Combo is obviously a little harder, but nutty draws with BoP/Seize/Therapy aren't too uncommon

There are also plenty of options in B and W against combo in the board (Teeg, Canonist, Extirpate, Crypt, Chant, etc. depending on the flavor of combo)

Incinerator

05-26-2009, 04:04 PM

Just a quick question: how does this deck handle counter/top? Land destruction / moon effects? Combo decks?

In my experience, Belcher and the Tendrils decks are big problems. Dredge isn't so bad if you just use STE or Extirpate to get rid of Bridges. I used to have 11 slots on my board for combo, but it's dying down some so I just accept a lost against Tendrils in place of great matches against other stuff. Extirpate comes in and sometimes steals it.

Moon effects and Wastelands I usually can deal with by getting basics early games 2 and 3 with top, fetches and STE. Sinkhole and Vindicate LD are problematic, but if you get basics you make them play the LD spells rather than other stuff so sometimes you can recover. It's not too good.

Counter/Top I almost don't care about. Aim your first couple of removal spells at the CB and I almost never miss getting it. I side in Extirpate and Krosan Grip against them usually, and it works well. I haven't had any problems in matchups against counter/top mess in a long time except for one odd stasis deck. I still won the match, but I didn't see the lock coming so I walked right into it.

DragoFireheart

05-26-2009, 04:06 PM

I'm thinking about using a mana accelerator, but I can't decide between BoP or STE.

Which is better for Rock decks?

Berzerked

05-26-2009, 04:15 PM

Hmm, again depends on the rest of your build.

I'm a big fan of STE. Permanent mana acceleration into basics is great in today's meta. Plus he chumps like a champ, and is randomly good against Ichorid. He also beats down on Control players without having to worry about removal.
BoP is really only needed turn1, and after that kind of sucks, especially if you're running Deed. STE is almost always welcome, and if you run plenty of 1-drops, it's not a problem that he's a turn slower. Good 1cc include Thoughtseize, Duress, and SDT (so underestimated. Especially good alongside Bob).
I'd say the only way BoP could potentially be better is when you play Seize, Therapy, and Witness MB.

Incinerator

05-26-2009, 04:52 PM

I'm in agreement with STE being really good. In addition to getting basics and chumping any number of things, it's an extra shuffle effect for Top and at least theoretically a potential wincon. Granted, 1/1's don't get it done very often, but 0/1's never do. :tongue:

Plus, STE helps get around Chalice at one. Not that it's a huge problem with Vindicate and Deed, but you can accelerate into those faster with him.

Jak

05-26-2009, 06:34 PM

The only problem I see with STE is Cabal Therapy.

DragoFireheart

05-26-2009, 07:36 PM

Well, here is the current decklist I am tinkering with.

Wish Rock

Land:

2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Scrubland
2 Savannah
4 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire

Spells:

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
3 Path to Exile
3 Glittering Wish

Creatures:

4 Tarmogofy
3 Eternal Witness
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
4 Birds of Paradise

Sideboard:

1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Putrefy
1 Doran, the Siege Tower
1 Behemoth Sledge
1 Loxodon Hierach
1 Spiritmonger
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Krosan Grip

Couple notes:

- Ignore the mana base: these are all cards from my current card pool.

- This deck utilizes wishes for late game power and/or flexible answers. I've tested with 4, but it seemed to many, so I cut the number down to 3.

- Currently testing BoP and PtE.

sdematt

05-26-2009, 07:49 PM

I'll be honest, I really can't remember what STE stands for...

Hm, I'll have to try some of those anti-combo cards suggested.

DragoFireheart

05-26-2009, 07:57 PM

I'll be honest, I really can't remember what STE stands for...

Hm, I'll have to try some of those anti-combo cards suggested.

Sakura-Tribe Elder (http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=30866)

Rizso

05-29-2009, 03:56 PM

Saw a really interesting version of Rock. Using 1 of Reveillark to bring bank all diffrent creatures but the Tarmogoyf.

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=26636

Creatures

4 Dark Confidant
2 Doran, the Siege Tower
2 Eternal Witness
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reveillark
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tidehollow Sculler

Spells
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
1 Unearth

4 Aether Vial
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Lands

4 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Warmth
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Relic of Progenitus

Found this version really interesting.

Arsenal

06-03-2009, 03:44 PM

I like that build a lot. I'm slowly collecting all the needed pieces to build The Rock, I'm trying to ween myself off blue based decks, and I really, really like that build. The only "problem" I see is that it's really light on removal. Like, 3 StP and that's it. I understand that it runs a pretty decent discard package, but still, I'm leery relying on 3 StP to deal with resolved threats; many of our creatures are utility creatures and not really equipped to handle themselves in combat.

Clark Kant

06-03-2009, 04:50 PM

joey223

06-03-2009, 05:14 PM

hey clark

that list seems very gyard reliant. i mean 1 relic and all of those creatures are done for.i would try to mix in a non gyard reliant creature.

cant think of any at the moment:tongue:

but you get the gist of it.

you still playing pox?

coraz86

06-03-2009, 05:56 PM

The mana curve also seems a little top-heavy (16 three-drops?), especially since you're running Armageddon. Relying on opening on a Bird or Hierarch is dangerous. It's also annoying to only be able to do one thing per turn, while your opponent does something on theirs and something on yours (or several things on theirs).

It looks like a fun start though. Care to post a more detailed primer?

Fuzzy

06-03-2009, 08:10 PM

People, answer my question: Anyone had played a kind of Flow Rock?

Clark Kant

06-04-2009, 04:10 PM

It looks like a fun start though. Care to post a more detailed primer?

I would but I really don't know much about the deck's matchups other than knowing that he seems to beat my Fairie Stompy list with it pretty frequently.

Patrunkenphat7

06-04-2009, 10:52 PM

In what ways are this deck better than Eva Green?

coraz86

06-04-2009, 11:55 PM

Eva Green is more about efficiency and synergy. The list above seems to be about raw power, and Rock in general is about playing the attrition war well and slowly whittling the opponent down to zero. I think my favorite is Darwin Kastle's deck at PT Houston '02 (http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=sideboard/events/pthou02). We obviously no longer have Vampiric Tutor, but the idea is still the same. You could also check out GP Philadelphia '08 (http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Events.aspx?x=mtgevent/gpphi08/welcome)--several rock decks made top 8, and one of them won. I actually think the winning deck would port into Legacy pretty well, and the environment wasn't tremendously different. Obviously it was (being Extended), but the meta was similar, just not at the power level we see in Legacy.

Odd Mutation

06-05-2009, 03:51 AM

Hi all,

I hope you don't mind me posting another list in this thread but it looks to be different from most lists I've seen here recently.

I'm a long time magic player and have been playing Rock variants (among every other archetype possible in Legacy, Vintage and Extended) since it's first incarnation. A lot of cards could be found in the early decklists as well but I think they have a lot to offer so they are still there.

In testing (up until now: Merfolk, RGAggroBurn, Dragon Stompy, UBCountertop and Aggro Loam, ANT coming soon) the deck has been performing really well. Maybe you can give this a spin yourself and share your opinion on my list? The list is definitely not completely finished but I wouldn't post it here if it hadn't been performing well and if I didn't think it to have real value.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder (They're almost essential to the deck, try them if you've never done so before)
3 Dark Confidant (I really would like to go to 4 although 3 have been really good)
3 Eternal Witness (I might cut one for an extra Dark Confidant)
3 Loxodon Hierarch (They have been incredible)

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thoughtseize

4 Bayou
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bloodstained Mire
5 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Volrath's Stronghold

It looks a lot like the Landstill decks from some time ago but plays differently nonetheless. Please, before you comment, play with the list because as always, some things are not as evident as you would think at first glimpse.

For the Sideboard I'm currently working with this:

4 Engineered Plague
4 Duress
3 Haunting Echoes
1 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Options I'm considering or that I've considered for the main deck or the sideboard:

2 Darkblast, a lot of 1 toughness creatures around.
3 to 4 Qasali Pridemage, I haven't played with him but I instantly believe that he's really good. Just have to see if he fits in this deck. I already have Vindicate and Deed, although I realise it's something different to play with a creature, especially with the exalt ability. Still have to test him.
2 or 3 Krosan Grip
2 or 3 Maelstrom Pulse, the Vindicates togeter with the Pernicious Deeds seem to be enough.
3 Tidehollow Sculler, extra discard and beater for the sideboard. I'm just not sure yet if I need him/it.
1 or 2 Dust Bowl, until now the Vindicates have proven to be enough to take care of annoying lands.
3 Circle of Protection: Red, for if the burn matchups would prove to be too hard. At this point they don't seem necessary though. I even considered Heroes Reunion, always have to keep an open mind...
2 or 3 Engineered Explosives
2 or 3 Life from the Loam but for now the Eternal Witnesses have beeen more then good enough, even to bring back land if you need it.
4 Extirpate, I just want to see how effective Haunting Echoes can be. I know from earlier experience that Haunting Echoes is devestating, as long as you can prolong the game long enough. At the moment I'm just not sure if you can stay alive long enough for the Echoes to do it's thing. Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus might be better also.

Feel free to ask your questions if you're interested in the list and would like to know more.

Thanks for reading,

Robrecht

lavafrogg

06-15-2009, 12:09 AM

Odd Mutation: Your decklist is very simple with minimal disruption in the face of most of the relevant gameplans of todays decks. Your decks power play is simply not as amazing as other strategies, with that being eternal witness+relevant card.

I personally like the build you have prepared but to me it lacks the pizazz that a deck should do.

Your deck plays like a solid mid range deck until the pernicious deed plan goes off and resets the world, the problem with this plan being two fold.

1) You do not get to the mid game fast enough. I'm not saying that you do not try, with STE, swords, and thoughtsieze you can slow the game down to quite a crawl.
Decks you will be competing with can completly skip turns one and two and start playing bombs that cost 3-5 on turn one, all of which are problems for you.
2) Once in the mid game, your deck does not want to see the late game.
Your deck has the witness tricks, but after that the stronghold is your only recursion. Any deck with Life from the Loam, Survival, Counterbalance, Crucible or any other solid recursion strategy will be swimming around you in the late game.

I have tested all five of the decks that you have mentioned and I do not feel that the matchup is where any of them should be.

That being said, I will say that your deck is extremely consistant and does what it wants to do game after game after game, it just lacks the broken plays that can come from behind and win. This is one of the better TopRock decks that I have seen and it can and will win games.

On another note: I have never been happy with Heirarch since the printing of tarmogoyf. I believe that he is a card where everyone always remembers where playing him actually won the game but they don't remember the 9 other games where he gained four life, chumped a goyf and then you died.

I would definatly add wastelands to your deck, no real reason other than personal preference to not play them. They do everything you want in a card and hinder you in no way, shape or form.

Also, playing less than seven discard spells also seems like a bad idea. Your deck can and will scoop it up to a turn two counterbalance, notice how all your answers are counterable and cost three. I would cut the hierarchs and a top to add four duress.

Finally I would cut two land and a top to get three tombstalker into the mix. I'm not sure if you noticed but he is really good and wins games.

So changes would be:
-3 Heirarch
-1 SDT
-1 Plains
-1 Swamp
-2 Forest
-1 Heath
-1 Stronghold
+4 Wasteland
+3 Tombstalker
+3 Duress

btw I hate volraths stronghold on many levels...

Well, discuss!

P.S.

@pat: The difference between eva and the rock: eva is aggro and rock is (aggro)control.

4eak

06-15-2009, 12:12 AM

Let's not forget that Sakura-Tribe Elder sucks post-M10.

Many Rock players will need to find other strategies to accelerate/smooth mana curves.

peace,
4eak

lavafrogg

06-15-2009, 12:25 AM

It still does what you need it to do...for the most part.
It fogs for a turn and fetches you a basic land. That seems perfectly fine to me. Worse comes to worse you actually trade with a 1 toughness creature but usually STE just sucks it to a goyf.

HAVE HEART

06-15-2009, 01:13 AM

Let's not forget that Sakura-Tribe Elder sucks post-M10.

Many Rock players will need to find other strategies to accelerate/smooth mana curves.

peace,
4eak

I cannot remember the last time the damage stacked with Sakura-Tribe Elder did anything for me. I doubt that a situation will come up where that one damage is relevant. The nerf to other creatures will probably outweigh the one situation in 100 where that one damage is relevant.

4eak

06-15-2009, 01:32 AM

@ HAVE HEART

I cannot remember the last time the damage stacked with Sakura-Tribe Elder did anything for me. I doubt that a situation will come up where that one damage is relevant. The nerf to other creatures will probably outweigh the one situation in 100 where that one damage is relevant.

How unfortunate for you that you can't remember.

I've found it relevant enough times that we should consider it. Even if it doesn't trade, the possibility that it can trade is enough to influence the gamestate. Even if it only stops my opponent from swinging with a 1-toughness creature, it did something.

The card is already borderline. It's ability to actually trade, and not just fog, was one of the reasons I would consider this card over other options. With m10 rules, this is just another strike against the card.

peace,
4eak

lavafrogg

06-15-2009, 04:04 PM

If the goal is to accelerate into the midgame with a two CC card then I say it still does what it is supposed to do.
What other options are there, BOP? Noble Heirarch? Neither of those can trade with anything and also don't fetch basic lands.
For one more mana you can get a wood elves but that does not seem much better than the STE.
STE is still the best option for people who want axcess to their one of basic lands.

Duyster

06-15-2009, 07:11 PM

Veteran explorer is another fine option , especially combined with cabal therapy .

lavafrogg

06-16-2009, 01:18 AM

Somewhere is this thread are several reasons why veteran explorer is a bad idea, namely it makes good matchups better and bad matchups worse.

Mutation: On another note this build was on deckcheck, it is very similar to your deck without the changes that I made. It has the sick BOP+cabal therapy synergy, which is always fun:

Mainboard:

2 Forest
3 Treetop Village
1 Savannah
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Swamp
1 Scrubland
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou

3 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Swords to Plowshares

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Dark Confidant
2 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Eternal Witness

# 60

Sideboard:

4 Krosan Grip
2 Haunting Echoes
3 Extirpate
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Shawon

06-16-2009, 03:40 AM

Hey guys, never thought I'd post here, considering I hate playing against The Rock and hate its playstyle, but for a long time I've wanted to break two specific cards, and so I've been inspired to put together a Rock deck that I think makes use of both of them.

I checked out a number of Rock decks on Deck Check and took note of what I saw. Take a look at the cards I bolded:

Glittering Rock:

1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [U] Bayou
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [R] Scrubland
1 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Taiga
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [10E] Birds of Paradise
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [AP] Vindicate
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [FUT] Glittering Wish
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

SB: 1 [ALA] Sarkhan Vol
SB: 1 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
SB: 1 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg

Alright, I'm not going to bore you with obvious details about the core of the deck, so I'm just going to skip to the interesting stuff. Why Garruk? Why Glittering Wish? Why Sarkhan Vol?

Garruk, while interesting, isn't that hard to explain in The Rock. It's very versatile, with many uses. You can also use Garruk offensively and defensively. You can defensively use it by freeing up mana for defensive spells after tapping out, namely for StP or Top activations, or create a wall of 3/3s to halt attacks. Offensively, you can use either combination of casting discard/removal and casting other spells, like Glittering Wish, and vice versa. I would love to run 2 Garruk, but I can only fit one, and perhaps that's all I need.

Glittering Wish... This and Sarkhan Vol were what inspired me to try making the deck. Using Glittering Wish to fetch Sarkhan Vol always seemed like a cool play, and I wanted a deck that could make use of that, hence this deck. Anyhow, aside from fetching Sarkhan Vol, Glittering Wish should still be decent in the deck, right? I think so. Look at the other multicolor Wish targets. Crime/Punishment is a very versatile wish target, as you can use it as a sneaky sweeper, or you can just steal an opponent's bomb and win with it. You run only 3 Deed in your MD+sb, so you can exchange C/P into the 4th Deed if you like. That's another powerful option right there. Same as the Maelstrom Pulse you see there, which may I remind you, can also be swapped out for Vindicate, another powerful silver bullet. See the Loxodon Hierarch? You can wish for it if you need another beater, or if you need life gain (or if you want random regeneration). Lastly out of the Wish targets is Gaddock Teeg, for combo/control matchups. I think the Teegs can also be Tidehollow Scullers.

Now, let's move on to Sarkhan Vol. Without Wish in the deck, I don't see how this is better than Garruk in Rock decks, especially since you have to splash Red for the guy. Nevertheless, Sarkhan still has great synergy with the deck, and even more with Garruk also in play. You can use it's +1 ability to simply pressure your opponent. Or you can use his -2 ability to clear the way for attacking, or you can flashback Cabal Therapy to maximize the ability. I probably don't need to say anything about Sarkhan's ultimate ability for you to get the picture.

Anyhow, so what do you guys think of Glittering Wish? I think the deck looks really good on paper, but I haven't tested the deck out enough, seeing as how I just made it.

I'm particularly concerned about the wish targets. Do you guys want to help me brainstorm a number of Glittering Wish targets? Since I'm technically running 4 colors, there's a ton of options to think of.

Wishlist:

Sarkhan Vol
Maelstrom Pulse
Crime/Punishment
Pernicious Deed
Vindicate
Gaddock Teeg
Tidehollow Sculler
Loxodon Hierarch
Mystic Enforcer
Qasali Pridemage (redundant, but works with Stronghold)
Fracturing Gust (for Affinity/Enchantress)
Debtor's Knell (probably stretching here, but hey, why not mention it)
Jund Charm (only Wish target that directly gy hates, and Clasms to boot!)
Ajani Vengeant (I don't think it's very good in The Rock, but hey, I have a soft spot for planeswalkers :wink: )

lavafrogg

06-19-2009, 01:45 AM

If you are going to run a wish, run burning wish or living wish they are just more effective at doing what you want them to do. I think living wish is stronger but burning wish is more of an OH SHIT button.

Sarkhan Vol is interesting but I think is only playable if you are going to run her mainboard. This would be most viable with the burning wish plan but not something I would advocate.

Your version of the rock has all of the mid to late game tools it needs with the witnesses and the deeds. Those two cards give rock the boost over other decks. The rest of thedeck should be dedicated to making sure you get to activate your deed in order to use the witness recursion.

I have played many games with eternal witness beatdown with the recovered deed in my hand, ready to be blown. The ideal list would be something like this:

Dudes-18
4 Goyf
4 Confidant
3 Finks
3 Witness
4 STE

Spells 17
4 thoughtsieze
3 therapy/duress
4 Swords
3 deed
3 vindicate

3 Top

22 land
(including basics and wastelands)

From this base list you add and subtract things to get to the numbers you want, or personal card choices that are right for your metagame. This is a solid list and should perform admirably.

I chose STE because it still does what you want it to(fetch basic lands) while still foging for a turn and flashing back for therapy( you only sacrifice birds early for therapy against combo and before cracking a deed so both those functions remain about the same).

Shawon

06-20-2009, 01:09 AM

I like your detail of the core of the deck on the bottom.

If you are going to run a wish, run burning wish or living wish they are just more effective at doing what you want them to do. I think living wish is stronger but burning wish is more of an OH SHIT button.

Would you mind elaborating how they do their job better than Glittering Wish? Not intended as a retort, but I'm asking the question because your comment is a little vague.

Burning Wish is good at fetching removal/discard like Duress/Vindicate to get rid of anything hindering The Rock, however, it doesn't fetch any recursion or creatures to directly win the game. Living Wish, on the other hand, can fetch recursion like Eternal Witness/Volrath's Stronghold and beaters like Loxodon Hierarch or Doran, the Siege Tower, but its removal isn't as potent as the removal you can access with Burning Wish.

Glittering Wish takes what you want most out of Living Wish and Burning Wish and packs it into one card, filling the holes that both Wishes have. It can fetch Vindicate, Maelstrom Pulse, and also Pernicious Deed, which Living Wish nor Burning Wish can't fetch. It can fetch Loxodon Hierarch, or Doran, the Siege Tower as threats to win the game. It can fetch Behemoth Sledge or Sarkhan Vol to break stalemates or just apply pressure the opponent can't handle (such as your traditional slow BGx Survival decks).

Perhaps The Rock doesn't need Glittering Wish. I sometimes get mana-screwed, and sometimes I think the deck's just better off with more land and/or STE in lieu of Birds. But, Glittering Wish is pretty damn fun to cast, which is why I picked up The Rock in the first place, so I'll keep testing it while I have the time.

Here's my updated sideboard:

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 [ALA] Sarkhan Vol
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [ARB] Behemoth Sledge
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [SHM] Fracturing Gust
SB: 3 [US] Duress

lavafrogg

06-20-2009, 04:17 AM

First and foremost, I do not prefer lists of rock with any wish but I will not discount the raw power of the wishes themselves.

When comparing the wishes first you have to look at what the wishes would do for you in ideal situations and then differ which wishes are the most powerful in the most situations without being win more. I believe that when wishing you would be looking for a certian number of things, for example:

1) Spot Removal
2) Artifact/Enchantment Destruction
3) Sweeper
4) Disruption
5) Threat/Win Con
6) Recursion/Engine

To rate the effectiveness the mana cost of the wished for card and the effectiveness.

So

1) Spot Removal
Burning Wish-Chainers Edict/Wretched Banquet/Vindicate
Living Wish-Shriekmaw/Fleshbag Maurader
Glittering Wish-Vindicate/Terminate

2) Artifact/Enchantment Destruction
Burning Wish-Hull Breach/Reverant Silence/Shattering Spree
Living Wish-Harmonic Sliver/Veridian Zealot
Glittering Wish-Harmonic Sliver/Quasli Pridemage

3) Sweeper
Burning Wish-Damnation/Pyroclasm/Firespout
Living Wish-Bane of the Living/Kagemaro
Glittering Wish- Pernicious Deed

4) Disruption
Burning Wish-Duress/Thoughtseize/Ravens Crime
Living Wish-Mesmeric Fiend/Tidehollow Sculler
Glittering Wish-Gerrards Verdict

5) Threat/Win Con
Burning Wish-???
Living Wish-Anycreature Known to man
Glittering Wish-Any Golden Creature

6) Recursion/Engine
Burning Wish-Loam/Reanimate
Living Wish-Stronghold/Witness
Glittering Wish-Planeswalker

Biggest Bonus' Not from Above:
Burning Wish- sorceries are uber powerful
Living Wish- Any Land. Period. Also search out mana fixing creatures.
Glittering Wish- Just to restate that deed is sooo good and planeswalkers can win games.

Biggest Problems:
First and foremost is speed. The catch all of a pernicious deed hidden in a 2cc card does not help you until well late in the game where you should have drawn the deed the old fashioned way.
Second is that the rock is a deck that hates having its mana base messed with more than any other deck I have ever played. Opening yourself to free color issues with the glittering wish must be seen as a con towards the card. If you can do with two colors what you can do with four.

I place the Wishes in 123 order Living Wish, Burning Wish and Glittering Wish.

The reasons behind this being that the Living Wish ability to get any land is the most benificial to the rock deck at all points of the game. Whether it is a City of Brass to make your next land drop or a volraths stronghold to start recurring goyfs that is just damned handy. On top of that harmonic sliver is amazing arti/enchantment removal and Fleshbag/shriekmaw recursion is great creature control. The only real Weakness of the card is the sweeper category but you cannot win them all.

Burning Wish is second due to its extreme raw power. Many of the best hosers in the game are sorceries so get your collections out. The ability to grab a therapy or a ravens crime can lead to an opponet with an empty hand and a reanimate can re fuel the charge into battle. Also if you pick a permanate type there is a sorcery sweeper that can be retrieved. The problem with this wish is that sorceries cannot attack and it is in a splash color leading to a 4 color deck.

Glittering Wish pulls up the rear for reasons that are hard to understand. It is basicly the catch all answer lying right in the middle of both wishes. It doesnt have the speed and low casting costs of burning wish nor does it have synergy with the rest of the deck like living wish does. Off the top of my head I could not come up with a valid recursion plan, pernicious deed is a million mana and the planeswalkers dont affect the game state until there ultimates. Wildspeaker is usually just cut for better cards, if the 3/3 ability was +1 it would be much more playable. The rock needs cards that are powerful on there own and broken when used correctly with other cards.

The deck needs to run as smoothly as possible with as little chance for the opponent to interfere as possible.

I understand that people like the wishes and even though I do not think I will be playing them if the discussion is on the wishes I would recomend the wish of the living variety. They are strong cards and can work with the deck in powerful ways but they also slow down a deck that always struggles to stay one step ahead.

p.s. both burning wish and cunning wish can get worm harvest...lol

coraz86

06-20-2009, 12:44 PM

I like lavafrogg's breakdown, and I agree with a lot of it. I do want to say, though, that you might make your mana base more even and play Beast Rock if you want to go this route. One of my friends loved the deck in Extended...I don't know how it would port over to Legacy, but it might be worth a shot.
His list went something like
4 BoP
4 STE
3 Ravenous Baloth
3 Spiritmonger
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Chameleon Colossus

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Deed
4 Living Wish

I can't remember the land ratio, but he had three Contested Cliffs main and one sideboard. The fourth Spiritmonger and the fourth Baloth were also in the side, as was a Viridian Zealot.
The environment is a little different here, so it could use a little tuning, but remember that we now have Spellbreaker Behemoth, so it may be some good now. You might then use Blastoderm instead of Colossus (since shroud is relevant much more than pro-black in an environment with StP, and we have access to Volrath's Stronghold if we want).

lavafrogg

06-20-2009, 01:01 PM

Coraz- the benifit of playing beast rock is the awesomness that is contested cliffs. In other formats this cad is a great form of creature control while your giant dudes beat the world. This beast strategy is also effective when moldar slug and ravenous baloth are the biggest things around.

Then they printed tarmogoyf and the rest of the world could out muscle the beast decks. The days when a 4/4 for 4 are good are pretty much over. We now require more out of our creatures to make them playable. In terms of sheer size we have goyf and a 5/4 for three/ We have several 3/3s for 1 and 3/3s for 2 left and right. These smaller agressive creatures now don't care about your 4/4 on turn 4 or any turn after. Especially in that they also play disruption to delay/kill your "big" dudes and burn to reach over the top.

Unfortunatly for the fun factor beasts are just a step behind, much like recurring nightmare builds and as previously discussed, the wishes.

Fun thought: Could a beast deck be made to pray on all of these merfolk/fairy/elve weenie decks. I don't think so but it could be fun to try...

Lol, who actually plays any rock varient? I believe that rock has a strong strategy in todays metagame, just like it always does, and am wondering what followers the deck has. I am firmly a rock player and have been for years. It is just powerful and based on the theories of card advantage and hude dudes.

damionblackgear

06-26-2009, 12:26 PM

What about playing Armageddon in either the board or the main. our deck forces so many situations where they just have lands and we have a threat or a top n the field that it seems like it would be a good idea to include.

TOGITwill

06-27-2009, 01:01 AM

It might be good to side in against land-still variants but against anything else I'm not quite sure.

lavafrogg

06-27-2009, 02:37 AM

Typically the rock and its varients fight for board control and card advantage. The geddon plan would mean that the deck would need board control(which is difficult sometimes) and did not care about card advantage anymore.
It could be used in the board but there are more effective control hosers out there(choke)

Muradin

06-27-2009, 04:29 AM

coraz86

06-27-2009, 05:13 PM

Regarding rock decks one certain build has recently caught my attention.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=28085

What do you think of this approach? In testing it felt quite strong and with 4 Therapies and 4 Thoughtseize it is not that hard to resolve Natural Order.
However sometimes you just don't draw Natural Order and the chances of winning with Kitchen Finks / Witness Beatdown are not great. Do you consider this comboesque approach on Natural Order Rock where NO is the main gameplan rather strong or do you feel it lacks consistency?

That reminds me of Jamie Wakefield's pet deck (http://www.magicdeckvortex.com/DDB/secret_force.htm), which he and other people did really well with back in the day. Check out Raph Gennari's deck at PT-New Orleans (http://wizards.com/sideboard/article.asp?x=PTNOR01\693top8decks) in '01, that's probably more like what you're describing. If you go here (http://wizards.com/sideboard/event.asp?event=PTNOR01) you can see how he ran it, he was in several feature matches.

A little OT; I remember that Tour. I fell off my chair when Kai won it. Thanks for providing a dinosaur with some happy memories.

At any rate, I used to love that deck. I was always a fan of silver-bullet decks, and it sometimes frustrates me that they've become difficult (if not impossible) to compete with.

I guess what I'd argue in the case of that list is that it could use a couple Cradles. Probably only two, since you don't want to rely on them, but then you could Order on turn three and still have mana left over (if you play a first-turn Bird and a second turn Wall/Finks/Witness). Or with five open on turn three like that, you could Thoughtseize/Therapy to clear the way right before you play Order.
I just hope that this mold isn't a shade slow for Legacy the way the aforementioned Beast Rock seems. I and some of my friends around town are working on Beast Rock with Spellbreaker Behemoths in it, but the five-power caveat is a little tough to hurdle (it eliminates nice things like Baloth) and makes your mana curve awkward.

Also, using Kitchen Finks as Natural Order fodder is hilarious.

coraz86

06-27-2009, 05:21 PM

However sometimes you just don't draw Natural Order and the chances of winning with Kitchen Finks / Witness Beatdown are not great. Do you consider this comboesque approach on Natural Order Rock where NO is the main gameplan rather strong or do you feel it lacks consistency?

I neglected to really address this in my prior post; forgive me.

Smother goes a long way towards keeping the way clear for Witness and Finks to beat, and it doesn't take them that long; what with everyone using fetches and Thoughtseize and the like, you often only really have to deal fifteen damage to win anymore. Also, Finks help parry until you draw NO, and the set of SDT helps you find it faster. Worst comes to worst, you hold the line with Finks and the Walls until you draw and force down NO.

I'd be more worried about how much game it has against combo, so I'd definitely throw a set of Thorn of Amethyst in the board. Thorn doesn't really hurt you, since your deck is full of dudes (a bunch of whom generate mana, which helps pay the extra for the non-creature spells) but toss it down and watch them cry as they have to pay extra for everything.

damionblackgear

06-30-2009, 12:32 PM

I've been testing a build with Armageddons and it's showing to be very effective. I even took Agro-Loam 8 of 10 pre-board with it. I've only been upset to see it once and that was because I couldn't find a 5th land to top with the next turn.

I do realize I should probably run Tombstalker's but I don't own any so until I get some I'll keep Baloth.

This is the list I've been testing.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmagoyf
3 Ravenous Baloth

1 Duress
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Vindicate
2 Armageddon

3 Swords to Plowshare

3 Pernacious Deed

3 Sensai's Divinig Top
3 Crucible of Worlds

3 Garruk Wildspeaker

4 Windswept Heath
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scubland
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp

lavafrogg

07-06-2009, 02:30 PM

Damion-Although I would be interested to see how you took aggroloam 8 out of ten games I do like the deck. The baloths really should be confidants. But might even be better as kitchen finks.

Your deck seems really slow and the chances that it dies to wasteland/stifle or even stifle/sinkhole seem quite high. You play a large number of basics but an early bloodmoon can kill you on the spot.(3 forest 2 swamp)

I would alomst reccomend STE in that he still does what you want him to in he fogs a turn and fetches a land.

This might not make sense but crucible is a dead card in your deck. It combos with wasteland and armageddon but you only play
2 armageddon and top will help you hit additional landdrops. The deck will succeed when you abuse the hell out of pernicious deed, which might be the most underplayed card right now.

Cutting Crucible and wasteland should be the correct move but if you are going to keep in the geddons cut the crucibles and get cards that do something. Cabal therapy would be interesting if you add kitchen finks. Bitterblossom might also work to fill up the board post geddon(sick combo with ajani/garruk(overrun))

On a seperate not just pulled this out of the Cavius forum:
// Lands
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [R] Bayou
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [8E] Forest (1)
3 [P3] Swamp (2)

// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [LRW] Profane Command
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [8E] Choke
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague

No turn one plays except blind Therapy, Top or explorer. Not effected by alot of hate present in the meta, could be worth looking at.

damionblackgear

07-07-2009, 09:04 AM

Damion-Although I would be interested to see how you took aggroloam 8 out of ten games I do like the deck. The baloths really should be confidants. But might even be better as kitchen finks.

I am Running Confidants (but I'd love to run 5+ :wink: ).

I took Agro Loam because of either Crucible or Geddon. Both were amazing. Because I don't have as many ways to draw as them and I can't recur my draw once it's in the yard (not counting Stronghold) I just decided to deal with the threats and stop the loaming shinannigans from getting out of hand. So there recuring Wasteland/Crucible or armageddon Crucible kept them in check. I was able to deed away their moxes and usually a goyf as well. Then I kept Stronghold offline by playing my own after I wasted them end of turn. The issue was that the game took to long. They drew the assault 4 of the games but didn't have enough to 8+ me a turn (usually they couldn't do it 6). Baloth did come in handy one game since Garruk also makes Beast tokens. I gained about 12 life before he could do anything.

My lack of Basics does give me a disadvantage against Moon effects. I'm aware of this and I try to get basics to begin with since I only need 4 lands to run efficiently. I have no other answer to how to deal with the mountains. It would be different if you have a couple of basics in your hand when the moon's been played. You can usually recover if you have 1 of each (Start Praying if you don't) but the same can be said about most legacy decks and Moon. If we could play a basic that produced 2 colors it'd be amazing (and probably worth 100+).

Finks would be a good idea since it recurs its self and I take 1 less from bob.

As you also mentioned I'm slower but a waste lock has never really been an issue. I usually kill off opposing crucibles or have 1 of my own to offset the lock. I do, however have an issue with faster agro. Luckily, all of the agro in the format (excluding Zoo) has a tribal based theme (D&T is mostly human), do I have an out for them :smile:.

I'm going to be playing this on Thursday. I'll try and give a report then.

lavafrogg

07-07-2009, 12:23 PM

lol, I would also love to play 5+ confidants but I meant Tombstalker.

Good Luck with your event on Thursday and keep us posted.

In regards to AggroLoam I don't see how you kept their loaming under control especially with no graveyard specific hate.

I understand that you are playing swords+vindicate+deed+thoughtsieze to stop their creatures but they can always wish>worm harvest and it seems to be gg for you.

Im not saying you scoop to a resolved blood moon I'm saying that you have to hit two colors to remove it. Either BG or BW bith of which can be difficult to find when the moon is on the table.

You said-Then I kept Stronghold offline by playing my own after I wasted them end of turn.- which confuses me.

I also have a hard time believeing that they lost when they had assault on the board and an active loam. It is possible to easily do 12-16 damage a turn and "combo" on someones face it is pretty typically 3 mana for 4 damage with an extra 2 damage on the last reiteration, or 6 damage a turn for 2 mana.

Like I said, you have alot of spot removal which AggroLoam hates but you have no control over their Loam and no speed to punish them for being slow... I have no specific testing but I play both Loam and Rock and would much rather be the Loam player in anymatchup where there is no graveyard hate present(no combo)

Darksteel

07-22-2009, 09:24 PM

I apologize for the necro, but I was wondering if you guys could help me with this list. I saw this deck (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27800) on deckcheck.net and was intrigued by the inclusion of the Natural Order/Progenitus combo in The Rock. I tweaked the list a bit and this is what I have:

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
1 Progenitus

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Natural Order

3 Sensei’s Divining Top

4 Windswept Heath
3 Polluted Delta
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Volrath’s Stronghold

It seems fairly consistent in goldfishing. I want to take it to a local Legacy tournament this Saturday and I was wondering if you had any suggestions. I really want to fit in Pernicious Deed to deal with weenie decks, which are popular in my metagame, but I don't know what to drop.

Thanks.

bowvamp

07-22-2009, 10:37 PM

Hmm, well in general I'd like to see every list that CAN run 4 hymn run 4 hymn so I'll cut a card for that:
-1 Vindicate
+1 Hymn
then, you could probably cut 2 Finks and a Thoughtseize (late game sux with the 'seize):
-2 Finks
-1 Thoughtseize
+3 Deed

There, I just made your discard suite better and added deed to your list...

lavafrogg

07-22-2009, 11:54 PM

Except the fact that turn 1 thought sieze is the reason to play it I agree with cutting a thought sieze. Oh and I heard finks is a hard creature to remove( synergy with deed and order) so I don't see the point in cutting that either.

I would cut the birds and the vindicates for four dark confidants three deeds and a hymn. Also I would get the 1/1 land into the mana base for natural order schenanigans. I don't see the birds needed in that your highest spell is four and the order is pretty much a combo kill after you've cleared their hand of useful disruption.

Rood

07-26-2009, 02:54 AM

I've been working on a Moon Rock list for some time now

After some Twinking and revising it, here's what I've come up with

// Lands
1 [R] Taiga
3 [CST] Swamp (1)
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [IN] Forest (3)
4 [U] Bayou
4 [R] Badlands
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
2 [REW] Harmonize
3 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [BD] Lightning Bolt
2 [8E] Blood Moon
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [ARB] Terminate
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 [8E] Blood Moon
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

I've tried Living Wish and Burning Wish but with the new rise in 2cc hate I'm trying to lean off as using as many as I have to. Thoughts?

lavafrogg

07-26-2009, 04:36 AM

How do you reliably cast your red spells? You have one red source pre moon and if you have a moon on the board you should generally be winning..

Despite prior bitchings about wishes I actually really like living wish in this deck as access to magus of the moon and also needed lands. The two cc shouldn't be played around because you also play goyf and confidant,

The_Red_Panda

07-26-2009, 04:39 AM

How do you reliably cast your red spells? You have one red source pre moon and if you have a moon on the board you should generally be winning..

// Lands
1 [R] Taiga
3 [CST] Swamp (1)
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [IN] Forest (3)
4 [u] Bayou
4 [R] Badlands
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold

I count Eleven, not one. Are you sure you aren't missing a few?

lavafrogg

07-26-2009, 04:47 AM

Rood

07-26-2009, 05:33 AM

I'm dumb, I missed the badlands for some reason and I wasn't counting the fetchlands. Sorry...

In addition though, why the finks and why no giant creature or recursion engine. I like tribe elder in the deck as a basic land getter and also don't see bolt as being that effective.

Thanks.

Finks for all the Zoo I see nowadays...Goyf is a giant creature and Stronghold is a recursion engine ;-). Tribe elder would probally be pretty cool to speed up the deck some. Tribal.deck, Zoo, ...I don't see how bolt isn't effective these days. It's very good at beating both of these decks and lately that's all I've been seeing.

-Edit: I also like Finks in here for the lifegain when I'm dying to Confidant.

DragoFireheart

07-26-2009, 09:33 AM

The problem with rock is that's it's a bit too slow to fight some of the faster aggro decks like Zoo and struggles with combo decks. God forbid you vs some stupid rogue deck like Dragon Stompy and randomly loose to Moon effects.

As someone who has played this deck, it just is too weak without some ways to stick around longer.

Also, might I suggest both Finks AND the Elephant?

lavafrogg

07-27-2009, 06:48 PM

The strength of any Rock deck seems to rest on the back of pernicious deed as board control and it always should be that way. This is where finks shines to help stabilize the board pre and post deed. It is just the act of resolving and blowing a deed in a timely fashion.

As to previous discussion goyf is not a huge creature anymore and stronghold is not a powerful recursion engine. You could try to get slick with unearth but you have to remember that you want to resolve an early goyf and also blow a deed sometime in the game. Unearth helps recover after a deed and after spot removal, unlimited witnesses can beatdown or chumpblock a game away but I think life from the loam is the superior recursion engine/draw engine for any rock deck.

lavafrogg

08-06-2009, 11:49 PM

4 tarmogoyf
3 dark confidant
3 tombstalker
2 terravore

4 life from the loam
4 mox diamond

4 swords to plowshares
3 engineered explosives

4 thoughtsieze
4 hymn to tourach

4 tranquil thicket
4 barren moor
3 bayou
2 savannah
1 scrubland
1 swamp
1 forest
3 bloodstained mire
3 wooded foothills
3 wasteland

Sb
4 gerrards verdict
2 engineered plauge
2 choke
2 ghostly prison
1 enlightened tutor
4 krosan grip

this is my list from the source tourney that is still ongoing. More will follow shortly.

damionblackgear

08-20-2009, 11:21 AM

Sorry I didn't get the report of my Armageddon version up. after testing I dedided I liked Armageddon for the deck (record: 13-2). I've actually increased it to 3 and dropped the crucible to 2. I don't seem to have issues with other's creatures and can normally make things go really bad for opponents prior to their threats arriving.

I've also added Exploration which I've never been mad to see, even when I've got a deed in the opener with it. I added it because the original Rock decks accelerated to make deed that much more effective, play fatter cards faster, and thin their decks. I figured they didn't have Top and Bob so I would use them to draw my deck faster and Exploration to speed the deck up (since STE isn't used anymore). I've found that it's still good even with deed since I'm playing crucible and Armageddon. I can deed end of turn. Geddon and play the exploration (5 mana has not been hard on turn 4). If there is a crucible and I geddon Exploration makes it as if you didn't lose a thing.

I have been having issues with Thresh decks that're running a lot of 3 drops (since most of our deck is 3cc's for removal). I got blown out against one that had kept Sower in. I haven't seen that card in a thresh list for about a year. and turn 2 Choke, somehow didn't get there... ?:|

Thoughtseizer

08-24-2009, 02:08 AM

Has anybody (competitive) play tested Blastoderm in the aggro-control version of B/G Rock?

As per Luis Vargas persuasive article pertaining to Loxodon Hierarch, in particular see the following link for details, http://strategy.channelfireball.com/category/front-page/ Loxodon is not the best choice for this deck right now (at least not the aggro-control version). Even if I am wrong and it is, he is obviously out of consideration for the newly defined and more aggressive G/B Rock player.

People played Troll Ascetic in Rock because of his untargetable ability. However, his weak frame and substantially high regeneration cost lost him a spot in many recent Rock deck builds.

Baloth not being what he use to be for many Rock players has been abandoned all together. I can't help but think how in this spot removal heavy metagame that derm would be a bad choice; especially with the synergy of eternal witness, pernicious deed and recurring nightmare. A much more efficient clock with target removal immunity seems very decent. Thoughts?

beastman

08-31-2009, 02:09 PM

Clark Kant

09-02-2009, 05:02 AM

I just realized that this would be the most appropriate thread to get feedback on this list.

What do you guys think of a more aggressive version of the Rock, than can win a good bit faster thanks to Natural Order, but loses access to Deed as a result?

This is the list I have in mind...

4 x Bayou
4 x Windswept Heath
4 x Bloodstained Mire
2 x Forest
2 x Scrubland
1 x Savannah
1 x Swamp
1 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 x Volrath's Stronghold

4 x Noble Hierarch
4 x Tarmogoyf
3 x Eternal Witness
3 x Kitchen Finks
2 x Birds of Paradise
2 x Tombstalker
2 x Doran, the Siegetower
1 x Progenitus

4 x Thoughtseize
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Vindicate
4 x Natural Order
3 x Swords to Plowshares

It's not as slow as traditional Rock decks, actually, just because it can rather consistently drop down a BoP turn one, disrupt turn two, and play a Natural Order turn three for a five turn clock. Or alternatively, it can plop down a Tarmogoyf turn two, disrupt turn 3, and play a Tombstalker turn 4, and easily win by turn 6.

Yes, this approach has poor synergy with Deed. But do you think such a list has potential? It does speed up the deck a good bit. What would you change in the list?

miko

09-02-2009, 06:01 AM

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14373&page=3

actually we have a seperate thread for natural order rock. your aproach might be interesting for that thread i think

Clark Kant

09-03-2009, 03:08 AM

Well my list is playing 3 colors, and pretty much all of the exact same staples of The Rock as every other list, with the exception of Natural Order.

Natural Order doesn't inherently change the Rock's gameplan at all. It's just a different threat, similar to those lists that opt to play Lord of Extinction versus those lists that opt to play Spiritmonger. That wouldn't justify needing a new thread. So I don't see why the card can't be discussed here.

Clark Kant

09-05-2009, 01:45 PM

Does anyone have any commentary on the list 3 posts above this one.

I really think those changes are well worth considering for just about every rock build, whether you play an aggro build or a more controllish build.

Noble Hierarch is fantastic. In addition to providing the same acceleration that BoP provides, it also lets you win Goyf mirrors, and generally makes all your creatures better. It does produce 2/3rd of the colors, the inability to generate black is a small price to pay for providing universal pump.

And Natural Order is a ridiculously good fit in The Rock. There simply isn't a bigger bomb out there. If you play disruption to clear the way for NO, it almost always wins you the game singlehandedly. There's very few cards out there that for 4 mana that guarentee victory within two turns, and Natural Order is the only one of them legal in legacy that's not reliant on storm. Seriously, so few decks play Wrath that it's practically a nonissue.

If you want, you can cut Doran from my list above for a couple of Deeds, but I am perfectly happy with not playing any Deeds maindeck and being able to bring them in from the sideboard against the few swarm aggro decks still relevent in legacy.

Having stuff like Doran and Tombstalker that blue decks are pretty much forced to waste their countermagic on makes it much easier to resolve NO the next turn.

When evaluating Deed, you have to consider that Deed, unlike most other cards, eats up two turns of mana, not just one. So it has a much higher bar to clear for inclusion than other 3cc cards like Vindicate and Maelstrom Pulse and such. When evaluating Deed, it should be considered a 5 mana or a 6 mana card, because that's how much mana you're going to be sinking into it in most situations.

I'm perfectly fine having to bring in 4 Deeds and the 4th Kitchen Finks from the sideboard and other tools against aggro on game two, but not designing my maindeck to beat swarm aggro.

Deed was just absolutely incredible in The Rock before Tarmogoyf. Back then, the only creatures that The Rock played that are less than 3 mana were 4 Birds of Paradise and creatures that The Rock wanted to have killed asap like Veteran Explorer and Sakura Tribe Elder. That was a situation where Deed almost always gives you a massive amount of card advantage.

The build of The Rock I posted above plays...
6 1cc creatures
4 2cc creatures
8 3cc creatures

The only decks in the format that play a larger number of low casting cost permanents are swarm aggro.

But this is all just one person's opinion. If you don't share, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that and you should play Deed along side Natural Order in the build above. Deed and NO go great together. As do Deed and Tombstalker. So the card fits very well into the above list.

I was just wondering if there is a solid argument to be made as to why Noble Hierarch and Natural Order aren't good enough to be staples in The Rock.

damionblackgear

09-05-2009, 02:20 PM

On paper I would suggest changing Doran into Stalker. You have enough green critters to support Order and it seems like it's just going to be a little clunky. or even switching both for Bob. I wouldn't worrie about the life loss right now since finks and other people swords will get it back up there (unless their not playing it) and you're creatures look to arrive faster than their's. But, you don't have a draw of any kind outside of 1 per turn luck. It would be nice to draw more than that.

To be honest though, I don't have a say on the idea of Natural Order. I don't have access to them right now. I am still a fan of Armageddon in the deck but people have shot the idea down as it isn't one sided. I've been looking into that idea more and haven't given your way of trying it a chance yet. I'm going to finish looking into mine and then I can try and catch up to yours (unless it's a dead argument at that time).

Clark Kant

09-05-2009, 02:52 PM

Thank you for the suggestions.

Tombstalker really sucks in multiples though. And without Rituals, this card doesn't fill up your yard nearly as fast as Sui Black decks. Playing 3 is certainly not out of the question.

Actually, playing 3-4 Dark Confidant instead of Tombstalker/Doran/Eternal Witness is something that I've been strongly considering. If I did that, I would certainly play that 4th Kitchen Finks as well. Just the thought of accidently revealing a Tombstalker or Progenitus is terrifying, but I'm sure it wouldn't happen that often. Even revealing a NO could be bad though.

I would definately play atleast 1 Doran in the deck. It's nice to have something decent to grab with NO, if you accidently draw your Progenitus and have no means to discard it or something, and it's all around a great creature.

damionblackgear

09-06-2009, 02:41 PM

I wouldn't worry about flipping the NO. I play with x6 4cc spells so I hit it a lot. Most of the time it doesn't matter. The 4th Finks is definitely a good idea if you have the open spot. I would be all for an Empiryal Archangel instead of the Doran as it will stall/win some game and will also kill a lot of the creatures in the format Not to mention, it can't be targeted. I understand that without a Bird or Hierarch you need a blue land but,your Opps are left with Wrath as their only real answer.

Derm

09-14-2009, 02:40 PM

I'm always astounded at how many versions there are of this deck. Well, here is my current build. It's a (gasp) mid-range control version of The Rock.

4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
3x Kitchen Finks
4x Eternal Witness
4x Pernicious Deed
3x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Shriekmaw
1x Profane Command
2x Recurring Nightmare
2x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Extirpate
4x Bayou
4x Polluted Delta
3x Treetop Village
1x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Forest
8x Swamp

SB:
2x Krosan Grip
3x Choke
2x Extirpate
3x Diabolic Edict
2x Cabal Therapy
3x Engineered Plague

I do well against Counter/Top, various forms of control, and combo as a result of the discard and maindeck Extirpates. I do well against aggro as a result of Kitchen Finks, Pernicious Deed, and other removal. I have a good late game as a result of Recurring Nightmare. Between Dark Confidant, SDT, Eternal Witness, and Recurring Nightmare I generate some serious card advantage, enough to compete with most blue decks.

I'm interested to know what people think of the list. Thanks everyone.

damionblackgear

09-18-2009, 01:05 PM

Deleted.

dyzzy

09-20-2009, 04:33 PM

I'm interested in building a Rock deck. Couple questions:

Is Spiritmonger good anymore? I can get a couple practically for free and I remember the good ol' Invasion block days with this guy. (Thinking of trying him out to save a few bucks at first, then replacing it with something else if he doesn't work out well.)

In a BGW list, what is a good proportion of duals and fetches? If I get playsets of the BW and BG fetches from Zen, that should be good on fetches, right?

sco0ter

09-20-2009, 04:59 PM

I play 2 Spiritmonger in my list. He fits best in a controllish list with 4 Deeds and lots of removal.
I play him with Veteran Explorer to get him into play turn 3.

damionblackgear

09-21-2009, 02:28 AM

To be honest I don't think Spiritmonger is fast enough for the format anymore. Before we could almost guarantee that we were gonna be around on turn 4 to use him. Now we can't. And most of the decks put us in a difficult situation if we try to wait that long to get him down.

I would suggest Tombstalker or Even 1 of the 4/4's (baloth or hierarch).

Hanni

09-21-2009, 02:51 AM

Even the 4cc guys are too slow these days. Now we have an assload of 3cc guys that are humungous. In a Rock shell, you're typically looking at Knight of the Reliquary and Doran to fill these roles. Tombstalker too.

damionblackgear

09-21-2009, 07:59 AM

I would suggest that if you are going the Agro route that you use Doran. The other 2 seem to be more of the control style build's choice.

damionblackgear

10-02-2009, 01:12 PM

I may be the only one in here playing rock anymore but I just 3-1-1'd another tournament with the only loss coming from top 8 vs combo. My list is posted up above and I'm wondering if anyone is still playing the deck and what your doing vs the combo match-up.

Kesta

10-02-2009, 02:12 PM

VS combo:
-Black: -discard (tourach, duress, seize,...)
-White: -Canonist, chant, silence
-multicolor: -gaddok teeg,....
-artifact: -trinisphere, chalice, thorn of amethyst

Maybe the new card in Zendikar: Mindbreak Trap
I don't really took the time to understand how it works but it seems to beat combo...

In my point of view, to beat combo with a rock you can go different ways:
-Mass discard with different card with synergy (rack, Nyxathid)
-Bears with effects (Teeg and canonist) more agressive way, can play equipment like jitte, SoFaI)
-artifact way, whit chalice, sphere or thorn, with mana acceleration like mox, dark ritual, ...

Valarne

10-02-2009, 03:43 PM

Well - I play Rock as well, and I do believe that it can still be a winning deck at times.

I am not posting my current list (which is also re-tweaked all the time), because i haven't really been playing tournaments lately, so it hasn't paid its dues.

That said, I think Shriekmaw is awesome, and so is Profane Command...

damionblackgear

10-03-2009, 12:55 PM

In my point of view, to beat combo with a rock you can go different ways:
-Mass discard with different card with synergy (rack, Nyxathid)
-Bears with effects (Teeg and canonist) more agressive way, can play equipment like jitte, SoFaI)
-artifact way, whit chalice, sphere or thorn, with mana acceleration like mox, dark ritual, ...

I presently have 4 thoughtseize and 3 Cannnonist (outta the board) to help vs combo. Maybe I'm just not doing enough but, I'm wondering if there are better options, Things that may or may not have been overlooked. I'm going to bring in 2 more slots in place of some of my graveyard hate. I'm just looking for better options.

damionblackgear

10-18-2009, 11:28 PM

Can someone explain to me why we are still playing stronghold? Older lists used to run a lot of creatures that would either trade or gain some advantage when they CIP'ed.

I'm noticing that it's just not that stellar and am wondering if someone can come up with a reason to keep it.

Al-ucard

10-19-2009, 02:10 AM

Valarne

10-19-2009, 04:03 AM

damionblackgear

10-19-2009, 11:09 AM

@Damion: I run Stronghold, as a 1-of, without real tutoring, but with a singleton Knight of the Reliquary (Nantuko Monastery to find as well) and Top+fetch. But I also run stuff like Shriekmaws, Pridemage, Witness and Finks.

I think that Stronghold tends to win those long grinding games. Its pretty slow, so yeah, it isn't powerful until lategame, but with stuff like Shriekmaw in the grave, its really persuasive.

I figured. I only run 4creatures and it only really has synergy with 1 of them (witness). I think I'm going to drop it for something else. The idea's that I'm looking at are Kor Haven or an 8th fetch. I've been leaning towards the haven more than the fetch.

Nihlistdeathtrip

10-20-2009, 10:01 PM

one of the rocks problems is that it can play a very aggressive early game with large creatures and innumerable amounts of disruption, but if the game goes long it can run out of gas and be dependant on the top deck. volraths stronghold (and genesis, does he see play anymore?) helps the deck regain momentum if the game drags.

damionblackgear

10-20-2009, 11:30 PM

Genesis shouldn't be run anymore. When the format sped up there was a need to have Something less mana intensive than Genesis.

At this point I'm starting to think that the format has tempo'ed enough that we shouldn't be expecting to go late game without a threat. Just wondering when's the last time Activating Stronghold did anything?

How many times would you rather have another land (fetch, kor haven, basic...) in place of stronghold.

Domi

10-24-2009, 08:08 AM

Do you guys think Dark Confidant is extremely necessary in the deck? I side them out almost e-v-e-r-y time...

Infinitium

10-24-2009, 10:08 AM

Wgy would you side out the card digging into your sided hate?

damionblackgear

10-24-2009, 12:14 PM

Do you guys think Dark Confidant is extremely necessary in the deck? I side them out almost e-v-e-r-y time...

what's in your meta that Bob is a bad call?

Edit: Also, With majority of our removal being 3 drops is the right call actually playing Krosan Grip? A good Counter Top player will just float a 3 around the top to try and bait it. Perhaps we could use that slot as something else.

Domi

10-24-2009, 12:57 PM

Valarne

10-24-2009, 06:08 PM

I'm just too much afraid to have Bob on the table without SDT (I've got 2 stalkers, 2 loxodons and 16 cards with 3cc). So Bobs always stay in hand while waiting for a SDT to come. I always think I would rather have some other cards in hand at that moment.
There is always a big problem to decide what to side out - so I always side out Bobs which I find useless in many cases.
And at last, after I threw the Bobs out, I had some slots for the cards I've always dreamed to put in (ex. more disruption, profane command, etc.)

It sounds to me like you are letting yourself be influenced by poor judgement/fear. Sure Confidant can hurt, but most of the time he wins games. L. Hierarch might hit for 4, but he also gets them back when played. I would practically never side out Confidant, because he, when left un-scathed, really wins games. MVP.
Ditching Bob, and inserting high-power stuff/high cmc? - doesn't that leave you with a much slower and therefore weaker deck? I did try P. Arena at one point in his place, but the 1 mana more makes a big difference. The rock needs to play something worthwhile in the first couple of turns, or we'll be toast. To me, thats why Thoughtseize, SDT and Bob (& Goyf inc.) are staples in my mind, besides their power-level.

lavafrogg

11-12-2009, 12:50 AM

Necro power!
Sorry, but I haven't been on the site in a while. School and work caught up to me. Refering to my list a page ago, I top eighted the source tourney with my only loss coming from a psuedo mirror where I kept a really bad hand game one and saw many leyline of th voids game two and three.

But in response the bob/stalker thing rarely happens due to the 3/3 numbers and the chances of drawing/dredging a stalker. If anyone wants I can post the matches from the tourney. Finn was gonna write something about my list so I might have him do it.

sauce

11-12-2009, 10:25 AM

how is the goblins matchup, do we hang in there w/ finks & stp until we can deed them?

damionblackgear

11-12-2009, 03:31 PM

I've found that Goblins to be more challenging since they started to add Stingscourge (took them long enough). Most of the lists I’ve seen are running between 3-4 main because of how much tempo they create.

I was trying to find additional assistance against the deck and I decided that Plague was a bad idea after board due to all the lord, and extra bodies was also a bad idea (was boarding Magus of the Tabernacle to keep them under control).

Instead I've gone with Ghostly Prison for an after bored approach. I decided that not being able to vile in a Sting scourge and bounce my answer was a better idea. Additionally I though that slowing their attacks was a great idea.

Additionally, if you're playing against other agro decks then it shines just as much since they don’t want to have very many lands. The card really shines when you do things to their lands (Vindicate or Choke). So I can say that I’m happy with the choice.

On a side note: I’m wondering if anyone had cut the K-Grip? I was talking about people playing more 3 drops so Grip doesn’t really stop the threats like it used to but no one responded to the question. I’m thinking a little bit more removal or graveyard hate would do the trick since people have been looking harder at graveyard based decks (since Zoo is becoming a contender again).

sauce

11-12-2009, 05:32 PM

Kesta

11-13-2009, 09:30 AM

against gob i found Pernicious Deed almost useless, once they had a Ringleader they recover too fast.

Arne

11-13-2009, 09:54 AM

Lately I've been seeing a lot of decks with 8 stp effects, also known als 4 stp and 4 pte. This because of the aggro decks that have been running loose. Zoo has a hard time recovering from those 8 spells and the same is true for merfolk.

I wonder, isn't it a good idea to use 8 slots (possibly after boarding) for stp/pte to keep them off of creatures the first couple of turns? then you have enough time to cast a deed or WoG/damnation.

I'm attending the Open dutch Nationals with the Rock and my sideboard is build to fight of combo. But with the ressurection of goblins, maybe I'll sacrifce some SB slots for PtE.

thoughts?

Skeggi

11-13-2009, 10:12 AM

thoughts?
That completely depends on your maindeck. Can you post it please?

Edit: is it the following list per chance?

3x Sensei’s Divining Top
2x Umezawa’s Jitte
4x Dark Confidant
2x Tombstalker
2x Eternal Witness
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Kitchen Finks
3x Qasali Pridemage
3x Pernicious Deed
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Bayou
2x Forest
2x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
1x Savannah
2x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
2x Windswept Heath
4x Thoughtseize
3x Vindicate

Sideboard

3x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Gaddock Teeg
3x Extirpate
3x Krosan Grip
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Crime // Punishment

damionblackgear

11-13-2009, 10:18 AM

Does Deed not do enough that you need Ghostly Prisons?
I am confused.. I think Damnation or Wrath is stronger than Ghostly Prison if you need more creature destruction effects..
I've had good luck w/ E.Plague..

My version of the rock is different than the Standard list. I run a lot of land disruption stuff (Wasteland, Vindicate, Armageddon, Tabernacle). Deed is a good sweeper but it's not always enough.

Kesta said it best
once they had a Ringleader they recover too fast. But, that still means that they have to have it or the onslaught of other gobs.

Is a good answer to why we need more. I HATE Path to exile because it gives them a land for almost nothing (who likes to get time walked?!). The decks that you'll play it against are the ones that have tons of basics so you do a couple of things: 1) Thin their deck and make them that much more consistent. 2) Give them the mana to either take control or get back into the game.

I play Prison because it helps slow the decks down. Most often than not it ends up making them think about what they want to do. Attack or port a land. And we all know how strong Gobs is against us without mana disruption and slow swings.

Kesta

11-13-2009, 02:42 PM

I play both rock(a survival version) and Gob and i assure you, i fear 3x much prison than deed. When i see deed i have already enough threat on the board that i keep my hand growing till my oponent break deed (or i put just enough threat) then i recover in 1-2 turns. worst card for gob are prison, tabernacle, plague, finks and tarmo :-)
If you play 4 finks usually it should be enough.

damionblackgear

11-13-2009, 03:54 PM

Arne

11-14-2009, 05:27 PM

That completely depends on your maindeck. Can you post it please?

Edit: is it the following list per chance?

3x Sensei’s Divining Top
2x Umezawa’s Jitte
4x Dark Confidant
2x Tombstalker
2x Eternal Witness
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Kitchen Finks
3x Qasali Pridemage
3x Pernicious Deed
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Bayou
2x Forest
2x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
1x Savannah
2x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
2x Windswept Heath
4x Thoughtseize
3x Vindicate

Sideboard

3x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Gaddock Teeg
3x Extirpate
3x Krosan Grip
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Crime // Punishment

Yes it is... direct copy from nedermagic I presume? ;)

Al-ucard

11-15-2009, 09:49 AM

Hi guys, what do yo think about this more aggro oriented version?

creature [16]
4 Doran, the Siege Tower
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf

instant [4]
4 Swords to Plowshares

sorcery [16]
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate

artifact [4]
4 Sensei's Divining Top

land [20]
3 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

60 cards

Sideboard:
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Extirpate
4 Krosan Grip
2 Circle of Protection: Red
3 Umezawa's Jitte

15 cards

damionblackgear

11-15-2009, 11:16 PM

Skeggi

11-18-2009, 03:37 AM

Here's the list I ran in the Dutch Nationals (138 players), I ended up in the top8.

1 swamp
1 volrath's stronghold
4 bayou
1 forest
2 savannah
4 scrubland
3 windswept heath
1 plains
3 marsh flats
2 verdant catacomb
4 dark confidant
1 eternal witness
4 tarmogoyf
3 qasali pridemage
2 tombstalker
4 vindicate
4 thoughtseize
4 swords to plowshares
3 sensei's divining top
2 path to exile
2 duress
2 elspeth
3 pernicious deed

side
2 duress
4 gaddock teag
4 engineered plague
1 tormod's crypt
2 extirpate
2 diabolic edict

A tiny little tournament report:
Round 1: CounterTop: win
Round 2: CounterTop: win
Round 3: CounterTop: win
Round 4: DDANT: loss
Round 5: CounterTop: win
Round 6: Landstill: draw
Round 7: Death & Taxes: win
Round 8: Goblins: win

Quarter Finals: B/U Reanimator: loss
Reanimator won the tournament.

So I ended up 5-8th place. I like the deck alot, it really crunches CounterTop. I've encountered them all: Supreme Blue, Bant and black splash. Always the same sideboard strategy: -1 Witness, +1 Duress. I lost to DDANT because it's a really bad match-up, and because I really had bad luck taking mulligans. Game 1 I had to mull to 3, game 2 I had to mull to 4. That's not goign to work :wink:. Against Landstill, I made a mistake game 2 which cost me that game (I won game 1), in game 3 time was called. Against B/U Reanimator, I lost game 1, took game 2 and obviously I lost game 3. I kept an okay hand with Duress and Extirpate, but he Thoughtseized me first. So I lost the Extirpate. I was able to Duress a Careful Study I believe, but it wasn't enough.

Al-ucard

11-18-2009, 03:48 AM

Al-ucard - Your list looks to be effective. I like the idea but I have questions on your manabase and lack of Bob. I understand that you can play without Bob but wouldn't he be better to have in with all of your low costs? As for your manabase I'm worried that you'll get Wasted out of the game. 2 Swamps isn't enough to actually get you there most of the time vs a waste-lock.

-----

On to other topics, has anyone cut K-grip from their board? I've dropped it to a 2 of but I never board it in. All in all I've been thinking it's a dead card now and needs to be replaced. I've started to look at what's out there but I'm not to far into Gatherer yet (sorted by cc I'm still on 1).

It's a list that top decked in an 50 people tournament and I play tested it last week.

I know we losed Bob, but its contrarrested with tempo cards like hymn to tourach and sinkhole. In my testings seems that this two cards do more than Bob.

About the mana base I agree that its a lot risky. I played against a deck with wastelands and if they kill you the 3 scrublands you are owned, I will fit one basic plains to sustent all white cards in there.

damionblackgear

11-18-2009, 01:51 PM

It's a list that top decked in an 50 people tournament and I play tested it last week.

I know we losed Bob, but its contrarrested with tempo cards like hymn to tourach and sinkhole. In my testings seems that this two cards do more than Bob.

About the mana base I agree that its a lot risky. I played against a deck with wastelands and if they kill you the 3 scrublands you are owned, I will fit one basic plains to sustent all white cards in there.

I'll give it a try before I add anything else to it. I wouldn't feel right with giving any kinds of other advice without testing the deck first. I am wondering about the basic forest though. Were you going to add that as well or just give it up?

Al-ucard

11-19-2009, 05:32 AM

I'll give it a try before I add anything else to it. I wouldn't feel right with giving any kinds of other advice without testing the deck first. I am wondering about the basic forest though. Were you going to add that as well or just give it up?

I'm not sure about the basic forest, I have worried much more about plains because all your answers required this color, not being able to play a guy is not like not being able to play vindicate or sword to kill a threat. Anyway, Top has helped with this.

Another card I think I will try is reliquary knight, I think is better than doran, and easy to play too.

damionblackgear

11-20-2009, 03:23 AM

I play Knight for both his size and utility. I'll ship you my list. Take a look at it and tell me what you think.

Domi

11-24-2009, 03:56 PM

What do you think about playing Baneslayer Angel instead of Tombstalker? It seems to be awesome

Skeggi

11-24-2009, 04:03 PM

5 mana is too much just to recieve a swords to plowshares. The risk is too great.

damionblackgear

11-24-2009, 04:38 PM

I run it over witness and it's a game winner. Yeah, it sucks when it gets swords but it's usually kotr that gets swords. Especially Game 2. People are more willing to deal with it than the angel.

Al-ucard

11-25-2009, 08:10 AM

Guys, what do you think about this list?

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29980

Discuss!

Skeggi

11-25-2009, 08:36 AM

That deck plays 4 Cabal Ritual and 3 Natural Order. 2 Kitchen Finks seems to be a bit light, in such a deck, I would play 4. Also, Yavimaya Elder seems terribad. Putrefy should be Vindicate and there should be 4, that can also be very good with the Wastelands. Extirpate should not be in the maindeck. There should be 4 Thoughtseizes. Pernicious Deed and Birds of Paradise seems bad. And the list is 61 cards. After a first glance, I would build it more like:

4 Wasteland
2 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Treetop Village

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
1 Progenitus
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Natural Order

Hmmm... I still don't like it. I would probably change alot more, eventually dumping NOPRO, Cabal Rituals, Birds of Paradise...geez I would so totally change it back to my own deck the more I think of it, haha :smile:

jazzykat

11-25-2009, 09:18 AM

One comment. When the design of rock is only BG or with a minimal white splash I think you have to strongly consider Elves of the Deep Shadow. They can do damage on their own and produce all or greater than 2/3 of your color requirement as well as beat for 1 when necessary.

In a rock deck especially one that packs cabal therapy and NO, I think that Wall of Blossoms deserves a second look. I understand it's a 2 mana cantrip but it can block everything but Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker which has to count for something.

Last, I hate extirpate. I don't care that it can take 1/2 to all of someone's win conditions if you manage to make them discard it.

Illissius

11-25-2009, 09:42 AM

f|i[p]

11-25-2009, 11:31 AM

People should actually play the deck and test it first, before commenting and adjusting the deck.

I have seen so many comments in different threads that are not even constructive, they end up changing the deck to what they want it to be. A lot of players hate change. Once they see a deck list that got 1st in a tournament, they bash on it, instead of actually analyzing the deck.THen they Switch those unpopular cards, for cards that they love, eventually reverting the deck back to their own deck ( which didn't really win a 70 player tournament).

Back to the deck

Natural order Progen has always been a very very good alternate win con.

Although I'm not really a fan of putrefy or extirpate, maybe it could have been something better. Maelstrom pulse instead of putrefy.. however he might have wanted an instant speed answer. Extirpate maindeck is questionable however he might have wanted it more for metagame reasons.

Yavimaya elder is interesting. It seems the deck is more defensive than offensive until he gets NOPROG.

Interesting over all. I would have wanted to see a tourney report with it however...

Piceli89

11-25-2009, 12:08 PM

The deck won a 70 player tournament. Either that was a giant fluke, or she's doing something right. Personally, it makes me wonder "Hmm, is Yavimaya Elder playable after all?", but maybe that's just because I really like Yavimaya Elder.

Actually, it's an he. Andrea in Italy is a male name. And that list is more slowish than normal BGW rock, but it's solid as hell. I played against it, and i liked how Elders performed.

Tao

11-25-2009, 12:23 PM

I agree with Flip, the first comments to the list are a mess. Pridemage? Elves of Deed Shadow? Come on, look at the list to find 4 Deeds and no white Mana.

I think the list looks realatively well thought through.
But I think the mana base is too shaky. With only 21 lands with 5 of them produzing only colorless it has to be a pain if the Bird gets destroyed. I would almost certainly not play the Wastelands and play more colored sources instead. He apparantly came through with only playing 12 green lands (of which 1 comes into play tapped) and 11 GG drops but that means not that it will happen with the needed consistency. If the Birds gets sniped the deck will not work in many games because it is screwed on G.

I also prefer Thoughtseize over Therapy in Legacy in almost any situation so the split should imo be 4 Seizes 3 Therapies.

Illissius

11-25-2009, 12:34 PM

Actually, it's an he. Andrea in Italy is a male name.

Oh.

I was going to just say "he" out of reflex because as everyone knows, female magic players don't exist. But then I decided to check anyways. And what do you know, it's an Andrea, a she after all.

Apparently not.

Is Luca also a male name in Italy?

Al-ucard

11-25-2009, 12:55 PM

Oh.

Is Luca also a male name in Italy?

Yes, it is.

About the list I have to say that maybe i prefer veteran explorer than yavimaya elder because it cost, but elder is much better in long game thanks to its own sac ability.

I think that first we have to try the same decklist and then make changes, I always do this. I will test it next weekend.

Skeggi

11-25-2009, 01:07 PM

;404240']THen they Switch those unpopular cards, for cards that they love, eventually reverting the deck back to their own deck ( which didn't really win a 70 player tournament).

Yeah, but I top8'd with it in a 138 player tournament, does that count for something?

I agree with Flip, the first comments to the list are a mess. Pridemage? Elves of Deed Shadow? Come on, look at the list to find 4 Deeds and no white Mana.
Actually I did include white mana in the manabase. And did you notice the Birds of Paradise in the list? They also die to Pernicious Deed. The Rock used to have Birds, Deeds, Elders, what have you, but those are all really old lists. There's a reason there's a white splash now, there's a reason the deck has evolved as it has. This deck is just a giant step back.

The list has alot of, ehm, let's call them unusual choices:

Birds of Paradise: this card is dropped by most decks for a reason.
Yavimaya Elder: 3 mana for a 2/1? Eternal Witness is questionable, but this card is down-right crap.
NOPRO: very risky wincondition; counter on NO is a big loss.
Extirpate: it's just plain crazy to run this card maindeck.
Putrify: Maelstrom Pulse is way better. And Vindicate is better than Maelstrom Pulse. Putrify is not Legacy playable.
Smother: any deck that has white should run Swords to Plowshares over Smother. Doesn't have white? It should, because it should run Vindicate.
Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy: I would rather run a 4 Thoughtseize/3 Cabal Therapy split.
Withered Wretch: not real good graveyard hate; against Reanimator or Ichorid not fast enough.

I could go on and on about improvements, which I'm pretty confidant are improvements. If you look at the top8 of the tournament, you see the following decks: Zoo, Boros, Goblins, Merfolk and Enchantress. All decks that are pretty easy for a deck packing Pernicious Deeds and Engineered Plague in the sideboard. It looks more like a good meta call than a good deck to me.

Ectoplasm

11-25-2009, 01:11 PM

Hey guys :D I'm not a regular Rock player and I'm only writing here because I had a brainfart which I wanted to share and get laughed at about.
Isn't Ob Nixilis the perfect creature for the more controllish, late-game-oriented Rock decks?

Illissius

11-25-2009, 01:12 PM

Yes, it is.

Then we're approaching a dangerous level of overlap between female names in Hungary and male names in Italy.

Kesta

11-25-2009, 02:21 PM

I tried this deck and it results that without NO you can't win, tarmo is the only other Wincon and it's so easlily killable.
You can't manage the board, make CA and hope you'll cast an uncontered NO.
If your tarmo are killed you just rely on NO and most of the time no creature to pay it.

Tao

11-25-2009, 02:40 PM

I have made a few test games with the list (no Wastelands and Wall of Blossoms instead of Extirpate) and I am really impressed. I made the first games with 3 Yavi Elder but after just 3 games I went up to 4. He is nothing but awesome in this particular deck. Plz test with him in this shell before you dismiss him.

I really dont like Extirpate and Wasteland. Wasteland gives you Mana Trouble especially when they attack your Bayous and Birds. And I don't see the point of Extirpate. Except from being good against Loam and Ichorid you don't need it. Your lategame plan is already awesome with Stronghold on on Yavi Elder or Stronghold on Witness on Natural Order.

I think I prefer Maelstrom Pulse over Putrefy. Being able to snipe Counterbalance and Humility (and random Planeswalker, Deeds, Moats, Enchantress Stuff etc.) is imo more worth than Instant Status. Sniping doubles with Pulse and having an own Goyf and wanting to destroy opponents Goyf should balance out somehow.

Edit:

I tried this deck and it results that without NO you can't win, tarmo is the only other Wincon and it's so easlily killable.
You can't manage the board, make CA and hope you'll cast an uncontered NO.
If your tarmo are killed you just rely on NO and most of the time no creature to pay it.

That was not the result of my testing.
- There are plenty ways to control the board with Deed, Goyf, Finks and the other removal.
- Yavi Elder, Witness, Stronghold and Deed are a lot of options to create card advantage
- With 4 Seizes and 3 Therapies (or vice versa) you should be able to do more than just "hope" that NO will not get countered

Skeggi

11-26-2009, 03:22 AM

Sniping doubles with Pulse and having an own Goyf and wanting to destroy opponents Goyf should balance out somehow.
The most common situation where Maelstom Pulse appears to be 'bad' is where you both have a Goyf staring at eachother. But that's okay for The Rock, compared to any other deck playing Goyf, you're the control deck, so it's okay to slowplay. As soon as your opponent can break Goyfstill, either by removing your Goyf or adding another Goyf, Maelstrom Pulse is good again. So yes, Maelstrom Pulse is almost always better than Putrefy. The number of scenario's where you need Putrefy's instantness is very small.

f|i[p]

11-26-2009, 05:50 AM

@ Skeggi

Yavimaya and the other unpopular choices might be a step back, to the old days. But stepping back isn't necessarily bad, for this list it actually worked.

I actually play 3 color rock myself but non the less, we're actually looking at the decklist and trying to see how it got to top 1 recently. We are analyzing the deck,and trying to learn something from it, not compete with it.

If you continue to say that the 3 color version is better than this version, then by all means take your deck to a tourney and take top 8 and I'm sure people would talk about your deck and analyze it as well... for the time being.

People like looking at recent decks that took top 8 for good reasons. Most of the time its to learn from it.

@ the deck.

Mana base I have no idea as I haven't tested it yet. THe only thing I find clunky are extirpate and maybe putrefy... other than that.. yavamiaya elder looks good if your going for a more controlish version..

Joon

11-26-2009, 07:15 AM

I'm testing Natural Order Rock since somebody started a thread about it in N&D forums.

This is my current list:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
5 Forest
4 Swamp
23 lands

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
1 Progenitus
16 creatures

4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Smother
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Natural Order
21 other spells

I know, it looks kinda creature-light, but this version just stalls, clears the way for Prorder and beats face with a 10/10 guy. The Manabase has been pretty solid, 10 fetches help to use Top efficiently. Top has been the best addition to the deck since testing it in my opinion. I'd like to include more creatures (that Yavimaya Elder guy or Wall of Blossoms as additional stallers) and/or the 4th Order, but I just don't have the room for it.

Nice additions for the manabase would be 1 Dryad Arbor (as you have situations sometimes in which you have to wait for a critter or sacrifice a Goyf, which both sucks) and 1 Volrath's Stronghold to recycle the critters you sacrificed for Therapys or countered Orders. I always disliked the Arbors in other Prorder Builds as it lets the opponent know that you play the combo when you have to play it as a normal land, but in this one it is ok I guess.

Isn't there any better removal than Smother out there O.o I thought about Ghastly Demise because it costs only 1, but it needs too long to kill Goyfs sometimes. Snuff Out is not good as we're a controlish deck. Doomblade is clearly worse than Smother, Edicts do not handle the things you really need to handle and I guess there aren't more vaible black removal spells...

Maybe one could justify cutting the Pulses as you have already heavy discard onsite to handle nasty non-creature Permanents and play Wall of Blossoms or the Elder in that slot. I also tinkered around with a build without Birds, but I often had to keep hands with no T1/T2 play, which was pretty awful.
I also thought about adding 2-3 copies of Umezawa's Jitte to the maindeck, but I had my doubts:
1. my list only plays 16 critters, only 11 of them can carry a Jitte
2. deckspace

Let me hear your thoughts.

Nelis

11-26-2009, 07:23 AM

;404449']@ Skeggi
If you continue to say that the 3 color version is better than this version, then by all means take your deck to a tourney and take top 8 and I'm sure people would talk about your deck and analyze it as well... for the time being.

He actually did. Top 8 Dutch Open Legacy Championship with 138 players. So discuss.

1 swamp
1 volrath's stronghold
4 bayou
1 forest
2 savannah
4 scrubland
3 windswept heath
1 plains
3 marsh flats
2 verdant catacomb
4 dark confidant
1 eternal witness
4 tarmogoyf
3 qasali pridemage
2 tombstalker
4 vindicate
4 thoughtseize
4 swords to plowshares
3 sensei's divining top
2 path to exile
2 duress
2 elspeth
3 pernicious deed

SB
2 duress
4 gaddock teag
4 engineered plague
1 tormod's crypt
2 extirpate
2 diabolic edict

( http://benelegacy.nl/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1593&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=330 )

Skeggi

11-26-2009, 07:23 AM

;404449']People like looking at recent decks that took top 8 for good reasons. Most of the time its to learn from it.
Is 15th of November not recent enough? Anyhoo, as I said, from my analysis I can only say it was a good meta call. All the implications that I instantly dismiss something are false, I certainly looked at the list, and after careful consideration I have to conclude that it's not an optimal list. Joon's list looks alot more solid to me for instance. If you were to go down the NOPRO route and keep it 2 colors, Joon's deck looks alot more promising in my opinion.

@Joon; how is a list without Pernicious Deed working out for you? I used to have trouble with it, even though Pernicious Deed is often slow, it's also often game winning even if you bury alot of your own. I agree with you that you should try Dryad Arbor. Volrath's Stronghold is an auto-include in this deck. Without it, Eternal Witness has alot less potential.

f|i[p]

11-26-2009, 07:43 AM

@ Skeggi

Thats recent indeed, then I guess some players have moved on and wanted to discuss a different approach to the rock. Maybe your list was optimal enough that there weren't really any holes or questions about the deck. Hence the deck with Yavimaya elders.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this deck is better than that or whatever. All I'm saying is stop bashing on other peoples deck even if it has unpopular cards. They made it to top 8 so there is a reason for it.. Sometimes its luck, sometimes its a metagame call. Sometimes the deck just works well as it is even with those unpopular cards and even when others do not seem to agree.

Then let us move on to the deck discussion.

Id say it was a good metagame call as well, but still, yavimaya elders are worth testing.

Skeggi

11-26-2009, 07:47 AM

;404470']Id say it was a good metagame call as well, but still, yavimaya elders are worth testing.
I dare you to open a [SCD] thread.

Tao

11-26-2009, 09:54 AM

I dare you to open a [SCD] thread.

It is not nessecary since it is not about how Yavi Elder works out in general, but about how it works out in one particular deck, the GB control rock. You won't open a SCD on Merfolk Sovereign either, you discuss it in the Merfolk thread. Also note that your GBW and Andreas GB Rock are both good decks but that they work in a completely different way. So Yavi Elder would suck in your version as much as Qasali Pridemage would suck in his (even if he'd play white).

_

To Y. Elder in general: I try to explain why in this version he is so valuable and imo irreplacable.

The deck is set up to win in the late game, it can stall with Discard, Deeds, Smothers and Pulses/ Putrefys until finally he will have a big problem in dealing with your Prog. And if he can counter your NOs then you will have good chances to outdraw him. And here shines Elder. He gives you a lot of card advantage and in combination with Stronghold a strong draw and deck thinning engine. Furthermore he has obviously good synergy with NO and Therapies.

So if you'd play a different creature in his spot in THIS deck then you'd have to find a creature that does all those things for you. If you'd just increase the number of Finks and removal you would weaken your late game too much.

Al-ucard

11-26-2009, 10:06 AM

In the current metagame with so many tempo decks have pernicious and yavimaya elders for play a land a turn is good enough to take a look.

Its a fact that Rock always was a good deck thanks to pernicious, and its a fact too that the more lands you draw, better is pernicious. So, why yavimaya elder is so much bad card?

I'm playing rock since vampiric tutor was legal in extended and then yavimaya elder was a 4 of and then white isn't played too. This is why this list took my attention.

I will quit extirpates and putrefys too but I will play birds, beeb able to play NO in turn 3 against a not blue deck its great.

Skeggi

11-26-2009, 10:21 AM

Cards I would run over Yavimaya Elder:

Sakura-Tribe Elder
Lotus Cobra
Veteran Explorer

Why? Because they don't cost 3(!) mana.

Tao

11-26-2009, 01:44 PM

Cards I would run over Yavimaya Elder:

Sakura-Tribe Elder
Lotus Cobra
Veteran Explorer

Why? Because they don't cost 3(!) mana.

Thats a ridiculous post.

You completely ignored my post and instead of contributing something useful you list cards that are mana acceleration while Y Elder is played for card advantage. Those cards have absolutely nothing in common so there is no point in comparing them. If you dont have anything useful to say then dont say anything at all.

Skeggi

11-27-2009, 02:23 AM

Fine, I can see why you want Y Elder. I'm still not sold on him.

Different subject: if you're building a The Rock deck where you take advantage when your creature dies, wouldn't you like to run Recurring Nightmare? It should be pretty cool to sac your Kitchen Finks or Y Elder if you have him, to recur your Witness.

Tao

11-27-2009, 02:33 PM

Thx for contributing something useful. I love Recurring Nightmare and I guess it could work if you replace Smothers with Shriekmaws. Otherwise you just don't have enough creatures because the deck is already quite low on victims for Therapy and Order. Not being able to shoot Manlands, Vialed creatures, Confidants and Noughts would hurt a lot though.

Overall I think Rec Nightmare is not worth it (despite how much I would want it to work). NO is just a brokener abuse of the creatures you have in play.

Al-ucard

11-28-2009, 04:30 AM

Now I'm testing a recurring nightmare version with cip creatures like eternal witness, veteran explorer and kitchen finks with 2 bloodghast and 1 woodfall primus. Anyone tested something like this? For now seems that it runs...

I posted this some days ago, I tested a list with veteran explorer for acceleration and kitchen finks and bloodghast to gain card advantage. It was a very fun deck to play with XD.

MrShine

12-02-2009, 11:32 PM

Hey, long time Rock player, new Source poster here

I think something that would help to keep in mind is what kind of list we are looking to make; The Rock as an archetype is known for its flexibility and versatile (and sometimes excessive) removal, but what needs to be determined is exactly what niche in the metagame we want the deck to occupy, as that will largely determine what stance to take with the deck.

As I see it, there are 3 different subtypes of Rock:

Aggro, Aggro/Control
Cheap, efficient beaters with a solid discard package to apply early pressure, coupled with some LD elements (wasteland, vindicate) and removal (again, vindicate) to keep your opponent on their heels. Different from Eva Green in that we don't necessarily want dark ritual to explode out of the gates, but similar in that the decks share alot of the same elements - Goyf, Thoughtseize, Hymn to tourach, Confidant. On that note, out of the three subtypes, this is the one that wants to play Confidant the most, as CA is definitely needed going into the midgame, but is not as relevant as in control builds as hopefully we can finish things up before getting into the late game.

I'm not exactly sure what metagame this type of deck would be most suitable for, as it is the one I have experimented with the least. Any input would be much appreciated.

Note: An interesting deck to check out following an aggro-rock theme: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15669

Control Rock

Control Rock wants to see matchups against decks like counterbalance/top, landstill, and aggroloam (although aggroloam is generally a good matchup with any Rock deck). These games will frequently go to the lategame where the Rock can abuse its recursion and abundant removal to effectively deal with the few threats that these decks typically have and then take over. Cards this deck plays are along the lines of Volrath's Stronghold, Eternal Witness, Pernicious Deed, Recurring Nightmare,Gigapede and the like. Tempo relevant cards like Birds of Paradise don't really have a place in this kind of Rock. Card advantage is paramount here.

Relative to the current discussion, this is where Yavimaya Elder would fit in, although I am somewhat skeptical of its actual effectiveness myself. Sure, extra land is what makes Deed great, but since they go to your hand it doesn't mean they come down any faster.

NO Rock (Aggro/combo)

I've been playing this deck a lot lately, and you can check out my evaluation of the deck here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=406215&postcount=67), over in the NO Rock thread. It combines a flexible Rock shell with a completely game-winning combo; a reliable finish can sometimes be tough to execute in traditional Rock builds.

This isn't to say, however, that Hybrids aren't viable; indeed, one of the reasons that The Rock can be so good is the ability to shift its strategy to match that of the opposing deck, and combining elements from every strategy will help accomplish that. There should, however, still be a concerted focus in one direction in order to maximize synergy.

On another note - @skeggi - I really like your inclusion of Elspeth in your list, I recently got the idea to fit it into a more controlling build myself (I'll likely be posting a control version soon). How did you find Confidant in your build? It seems to me you are running a lot of high CC spells ie Elspeth, Tombstalker. After all, one can't always find a Top...

PS - what is the deal with the opener/primer of this thread? it seems to be missing completely

EDIT: Sorry for being a bit repetitive, I hadn't looked over the entire thread for a few weeks and realized there was a pretty good explanation near to the start. Seeing as there looks to be a new group of posters, though, a refresher seemed pertinent. Also the meta has changed dramatically which has somewhat invalidated some cards... For example Finks is just way better than Loxodon Hierarch nowadays as Zoo and Merfolk are rampant

Kesta

12-03-2009, 04:10 AM

I think you forget RockSur. Rock shell with survival, that match quite good.

brianw712

12-21-2009, 01:30 PM

I've got a Rock-ish list that is up for discussion, this is the link to my post:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15904

I'll post the list here for your convenience:

Creatures:

4 Tarmogoyf (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/153.html)
4 Kitchen Finks (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/229.html)
4 Knight of the Reliquary (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/113.html)
3 Loxodon Hierarch (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/214.html)
3 Doran, the Siege Tower (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/247.html)

Non-creature spells:

4 Pernicious Deed (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/114.html)
3 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)
3 Vindicate (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/126.html)
4 Swords to Plowshares (http://magiccards.info/4e/en/302.html)
2 Sensei's Divining Top (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/268.html)

Lands:

2 Bayou (http://magiccards.info/al/en/278.html)
2 Savannah (http://magiccards.info/al/en/288.html)
2 Scrubland (http://magiccards.info/al/en/289.html)
1 Forest (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/380.html)
1 Plains (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/364.html)
1 Swamp (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/372.html)
3 Marsh Flats (http://magiccards.info/zen/en/219.html)
3 Verdant Catacombs (http://magiccards.info/zen/en/229.html)
3 Windswept Heath (http://magiccards.info/on/en/328.html)
1 Horizon Canopy (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/177.html)
3 Treetop Village (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/361.html)
4 Wasteland (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/340.html)

Sideboard:

4 Duress (http://magiccards.info/7e/en/131.html)
3 Infest (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/80.html)
4 Extirpate (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/71.html)
2 Choke (http://magiccards.info/8e/en/237.html)
2 Gaddock Teeg (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/248.html)

Discuss.

Kesta

12-21-2009, 03:12 PM

@brianw712: Hi, your list looks solid. Some points i have to discuss:
-KoR: i'm not a big fan of this guy, but lot of ppl include it, why not
-Loxodon Hierarch: amazing, i play it a lot and it's always a good top-deck
-Engineered Explosives: i don't understand why you play this card over a 4th vindicate and some Maelstrom pulse or even PtE if you have an aggro intensive meta.
-Treetop village: not a big fan too, it makes your land count raise for a small imput IMHO.

brianw712

12-21-2009, 10:06 PM

Yes, I agree that EE is suboptimal much of the time, and I'm trying to find a suitable replacement, but EE does a lot that Vindicate/Maelstrom Pulse/Path to Exile don't do:

1. It kills token swarms, at instant speed. Maelstrom Pulse kills tokens too, but not at instant speed, which is relevant against Dredge and, sometimes, Landstill (ex: cycled Decree of Justice for surprise blockers).
2. It can provide X-for-1 card advantage. While Maelstrom Pulse can, too, it does so much less often.
3. It can kill Nimble Mongeese.

That said, Pulse, Path to Exile, and Vindicate do have their merits (usually faster, un-stifleable, ability to hit any converted mana cost). However, I just feel that EE has more to offer due to the possibility of card advantage.

Treetop Village has been amazing for me. It's fetchable by Knight of the Reliquary, it's funny when your opponent doesn't know you're playing them and they resolve a Standstill on an empty board, and it puts pressure on your opponent after you Deed away the board. I look at it in an opposite way as you: I think it lets you increase your threat count without having to lower your land count. Yes, this deck needs 26 lands, even with 2 tops. Most opening hands won't have any action until turn three (so the CIPT clause on Treetop Village doesn't really matter all that much), so its really important to make consistent land drops through stuff like Wasteland.

Thanks for the suggestions though

Domi

12-22-2009, 04:49 AM

I'm gonna test this build. Any suggestions?
1) Is it necessary to play PDeeds in such a list?
2) Birds/Hierarchs - which is better?
3) Shall I add a planeswalker? I suppose Elspeth will fit such a build very well, but I dunno what to cut off.
4) I'm not sure with the manabase (plz, no advice about Zendicar fetches, I don't have them ^^)
5) Any suggestion on my sideboard? I'm pretty scared of tribal (merfolks/goblins), Ichorids, Survivals, Combo and decks using Progenitus.

The list is as follows:

// Lands
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Plains
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Treetop Village
1 Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Eternal Witness
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Loxodon Hierarch

// Spells
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte

crow_mw

12-22-2009, 06:46 AM

I still have same doubts about brianw712 list I posted in the other thread. Can a modern legacy deck perform well with so little turn 1 and turn 2 plays? There are only 6 1-drops (4xstp, 2xtop) and 4 2-drops (goyfs), plus maybe EE and Treetop Village activations.

brianw712

12-22-2009, 09:58 AM

@Domi:

1. I'd say PDeeds aren't necessary, but they are very, very helpful against decks that will be inevitably faster than yours is (Zoo and Dredge in particular). However, you do run a fair amount of 1 and 2 drops, so I guess PDeed kind of loses its effectiveness there.

2. I would say test them both, but just by looking at the list I am going to guess birds is better. Theres a lot of things on turn two with a turn 1 birds that you couldn't do with a turn one hierarch (vindicate, pulse, thoughtseize + therapy, thoughtseize/therapy + confidant). Of course, all this assuming you didn't get enough black-mana producing lands in your opening hand. The exalted is important, but not too important since you won't be the aggro deck most of the time.

3. Maybe, but I think there are better options than Elspeth. Garruk is a beast, and the interactions between Ajani Goldmane and Kitchen Finks are kind of cool (+1/+1 and -1/-1 counters cancel out right?). If you were to take anything out, I would take out some combination of thoughtseizes/cabal therapies, and a vindicate. Personally, I just don't think that discard is very good in today's environment (hence the lack of discard in the list I posted).

4. 21 lands and 4 noble hierarchs + 3 tops looks solid. If you're still concerned, you could change the treetop and volrath's into more duals/fetches, or you could just add more lands. Again, only testing will tell.

5. Your sideboard looks pretty well set up to handle the decks you mentioned. And this is probably a horrible suggestion, but maybe Elephant Grass? It slows down tribal (although it slows you down too--darned cumulative upkeep), makes Ichorids and zombie tokens unable to attack at all, and makes Progenitus unable to attack at all.

brianw712

12-22-2009, 10:05 AM

@crow:

Yea, most people who see the decklist have the same concerns. Speed is definitely an issue; I get a lot of hands that have no action until turn three. I've tried a fair amount of things to speed the deck up: Noble Hierarchs/Birds of Paradise, Chrome Mox, Thoughtseize/Duress/Gerrard's Verdict/Hymn to Tourach, etc. etc. The problem was, Noble Hierarch/Birds of Paradise/Chrome Mox have horrible synergy with Pernicious Deed, are only good in your opening hand, and force you to lower your land count, which makes you more vulnerable to burn (fire/ice on two noble hierarchs is pretty bad). I just don't see discard as a strategy in general very effective against most decks today, especially Zoo. The two life from thoughtseize IS relevant. Not to mention that Thoughtseize/Duress/etc. are horrible topdecks. So far, though, Swords and Goyf (and, to an extent, EE) have been enough to allow me to be in a pretty good position by turn three, when I can keep churning bombs out.

Skeggi

12-22-2009, 10:10 AM

On another note - @skeggi - I really like your inclusion of Elspeth in your list, I recently got the idea to fit it into a more controlling build myself (I'll likely be posting a control version soon). How did you find Confidant in your build? It seems to me you are running a lot of high CC spells ie Elspeth, Tombstalker. After all, one can't always find a Top...

In this build Dark Confidant was very good. However, we dropped him and made quite a drastic change in build. Me and my teammate played this last Sunday at a GPT Madrid (50 people). I went 3-3 (lost the last game to Landstill missing top8), he ended third place:

ADHD Funky Rock
1 forest
1 plains
4 windswept heath
3 savannah
3 wasteland
1 nantuko monastery
1 verdant catacombs
3 scrubland
4 marsh flats
1 bayou
4 tarmogoyf
3 qasali pridemage
4 knight of the reliquary
1 shriekmaw
1 eternal witness
3 elspeth, knight-errant
4 swords to plowshares
4 sensei's divining top
4 vindicate
3 orims chant
1 umezawa's jitte
2 diabolic edict
3 Secret Tech

SB

3 gaddock teeg
2 diabolic edict
3 extirpate
3 duress
3 pernicious deed
1 path to exile

This deck is designed to handle a more combo/control oriented meta, with Merfolk and Zoo being less and less popular over here.

My teammate lost to DDANT in the semi-finals; I lost to Belcher (round 3), Goblins (round 5) and Landstill (round 6). Where I must say both the Belcher player and the Goblins player had really insanely good hands.

crow_mw

12-22-2009, 10:39 AM

kinda

12-25-2009, 11:03 PM

@ brian's list: I like the explorer suggestion...or elephant grass (similar idea but not dead late game)...or orim's chant (can get u to late game or randomly help vs. combo)...

Also, needs more terramorphic expanse...:really: .

Edit: Or maybe even elvish spirit guide...as it's not a dead card vs. control.

RalfW.

12-27-2009, 12:58 PM

Hello everybody,
i´ve played a NORock at a 45 Player tournament and finished in 9th place.

Here the List i´ve played.

Creatures 19

4 x Birds
4 x Kitchen Finks
4 x Wall of Blossom (Should be Tarmogoyf)
2 x Tidehollow Sculler
1 x Dryad Arbor
2 x Eternal Witness
1 x Shriekmaw
1 x Progenitus

Spell 21

4 x Swords to Plowshares
4 x Thoughtseize
3 x Vindicate
2 x Maelstrom Pulse
4 x Pernicious Deed
3 x Natural Order
1 x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Lands 20

3 x Windswepth Heath
4 x Verdant Catacombs
1 x Marsh Flats
2 x Swamp
2 x Plains
2 x Forest
3 x Bayou
1 x Scrubland
1 x Savannah
1 x Volrath´s Stronghold

SB:
4 x Cabal Therapy
4 x Extiprate
4 x Engineered Plague
1 x Ethersworn Canonist
1 x Gaddock Teeg
1 x Nath of the Gilt-Leaf

Round 1/3: Goblins

In both rounds I can handle the Lackeys and after boarding the Plagues showed often enough to win both Rounds with Progenitus. Two times Maelstrom Pulse gets rid of 2 or more Goblins at one time.

Round 2: G/W/R NOProgenitus

2:1 for him, he can cast more Progenitus and Elspth then i can.
One game Woolly Thoctar Turn 2 and 3 are to much for me.
Game 3 i cast Thoughtseize on my to get rid of my Progenitus and cast NO to get it back with him casting NO the next two Turns to kill my Progenitus and get his own one.
These games were very close.

Round 4: Merfolk

Quite the same as in Round one and three, only with him winning also one game with the Land Vial, Standstill, enough counter start for him.

Round 5: Trisomy 21

He wins by creating two much card advantage and me taking innocent blood while he has smallpox to kill me with. He wins the Tournemnet afterwards.

Round 6: Reanimator

Game one he plays Ioona on Green, i got the Sword in the Round before he can attack lethal, I can Cast NO an win.
Game two i get ride of two Putrid Imps with Malestorm Pulse, he finds no other discard outlet and me Progenitus wins.

One of the best cards was Maelstrom Pulse, it destroyed an Goblin player alone. Also this deck is only tons of Removal and a Progenitus to win it is quite fun to play.
In my opinion you need no Grips in the SB. With the Nath I hoped to do better against Combo because of the random Discard an you can search him with NO :-)
Any suggestions waht else to play in the Sb or Maindeck?

James22

01-17-2010, 07:14 AM

Good morning (here in Italy it's morning :cool: ) to everyone. I'm an Italian player and I've been reading this thread since about 4 months. In spite of my really bad english, I decided to post my thoughts about the deck, trying to reanimate this topic. I ask you to forgive me for the language mistakes I'll make.

I begin with the decklist that I'm actually testing:

// Lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
3 Windswept Heath
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Forest
2 Plains

// Creatures
2 Eternal Witness
4 Dark Confidant
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Kitchen Finks

// Spells
4 Thoughtseize
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Extirpate

A few comments about my list.
22 lands. I think it's the right quantities running STE. I can say that I rarely get screwed. Verdant catacomb has been a great add-on for the deck's mana base.
As you can see I'm one of the few last players that have been running STE yet. So, the first question I'd like to ask some players:
How do you feel without any mana accelerators?
On this thread I've seen a lot of interesting decklists running neither STE nor BOP. Actually, I think that this deck need 4-5 mana sources in play to develop well his gameplan. I also don't understand how some players can play a deck with a mana curve higher than mine, whithout mana accelerators and running wasteland and treetop village :confused:

Creatures: I run Confidants and Witnesses as sources of card advantage. Kitchen finks are simply too good in an aggro meta like the italian one (here in Milan in particular :wink: )
In other version of the deck I would test also Knight of the reliquary, that in my version in simply shit. I'm also testing a version of the deck with NO, but I've never played it at a tournamente due to the lack f NO, that here are very difficult to find.

Spells: Seize, deed, vindi, e swords are auto-included. I've switch 1 vindicate with the fifth StP (path to exile), because of the great presence of zoo and merfolk, that convinced me to include a cheaper removal. I don't understand why some lists (like the skeggi's one), don't run deeds. They are simply a source of card advantage, especially against zoo and meroflk that are very played here in italy as in the rest of the world (based on what I read on this forum and on deckcheck). I also run jittes MD for the same reason, although it anti-sinergy with deed is evident. Now, I'm testing elspeth and I've to say that it's amazing. Absolutely broken against aggro, and also against control. It also speeds up our race that has always been a problem of the deck.

Question: Have you found a serious solution against progenitus?
Elspeth let me to fly over it and gaddock and additional discard effects help me post side, but I'd like to find a better solution... if it exists and fit well with our gameplan (so damnation or wrath of god aren't good solutions...)

Kanabo

01-17-2010, 01:48 PM

does anyone know where the original list went? (the list on post 1)

damionblackgear

01-17-2010, 02:49 PM

@James22 - Welcome to the thread. I'm wondering what you mean by an aggressive Meta. If you're referring to Gobs and Merfolk then it may help to include Ghostly Prison. Zoo could be it's own other issue but you would be suprised at how strong a Baneslayer looks against them. The risk isn't as big as it seems as we used to run Loxodon Hierarchy and bob alongside each other.

citanul

01-17-2010, 03:02 PM

does anyone know where the original list went? (the list on post 1)

The forum decided to go kablamo! And deleted the topic on editing.

brianw712

01-19-2010, 09:25 PM

On this thread I've seen a lot of interesting decklists running neither STE nor BOP. Actually, I think that this deck need 4-5 mana sources in play to develop well his gameplan. I also don't understand how some players can play a deck with a mana curve higher than mine, whithout mana accelerators and running wasteland and treetop village

I'm assuming you're referring to my list. I've never had any mana problems, except sometimes against tempo thresh. I run 26 lands vs. your 22 and 4 STE, so its about equal there. Also, you need GG for witness and WW for Elspeth, where I only need one of each basic to play everything in my deck. About STE, I haven't tested it, but I don't like it because it doesn't accelerate to 3-drops.

Question: Have you found a serious solution against progenitus?
Elspeth let me to fly over it and gaddock and additional discard effects help me post side, but I'd like to find a better solution... if it exists and fit well with our gameplan (so damnation or wrath of god aren't good solutions...)

You could try Runed Halo in the side or replace some swords/PTE/Vindicate with Diabolic Edicts.

Also, if you have an aggressive meta, especially one with a lot of tribal, I've found Infest works best. I think of it as the black Firespout, except you can't side it in vs. Zoo.

James22

01-23-2010, 05:22 PM

Probably I didn't explain properly my thoughts. Aggro.decks are the match ups I always want to face.

@damionblackgear: I've never found zoo a bad MU. The Rock is simply designed to beat that sort of decks. Deeds are the key cards in this MU. I think Baneslayer Angel is a strong card, but a little bit slow for legacy. As I said in my other post, I think Elspeth is the best choice as a finisher.

@brianw712: STE plays a double role. It accelerates our gameplan and slow down the race of aggro decks. I prefer it in spite of birds of paradise for his function of blocker. I also find very useful his shuffle effect, that playing sensei's diving top is really amazing.
I haven't understand how infest can be a solution to progenitus... Probably you referred to perish. IMHO Runed Halo is a little bit too specific, and also very anti-synergic with pernicious deed.

Here in Italy in some decklists I've seen Hide/Seek. I'm going to give a try to it, probably in the slots of duress. I'll post my feelings about it after some tests.

brianw712

01-23-2010, 09:08 PM

I haven't understand how infest can be a solution to progenitus... Probably you referred to perish. IMHO Runed Halo is a little bit too specific, and also very anti-synergic with pernicious deed.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I meant Infest as an answer to tribal (rather than Engineered Plague), not Progenitus. I don't think Runed Halo is that specific, it not only answers Progenitus, it also answers ANY creature on the board (including Reanimator targets, which are hard to deal with otherwise), Tendrils of Agony, Grindstone, targeted discard (although I admit that this isn't very relevant), and burn. You could even name Warren's Weirding against RB goblins=]. Also, although it can be anti-synergistic with Deed, it can cause them to overextend, making Deed a little better.

Here in Italy in some decklists I've seen Hide/Seek. I'm going to give a try to it, probably in the slots of duress. I'll post my feelings about it after some tests.

Haha Seek on Progenitus = Epic Win.

Goaswerfraiejen

01-23-2010, 09:21 PM

Question: Have you found a serious solution against progenitus?
Elspeth let me to fly over it and gaddock and additional discard effects help me post side, but I'd like to find a better solution... if it exists and fit well with our gameplan (so damnation or wrath of god aren't good solutions...)

If you know that you're facing a deck with the Progenitus combo, I've found that one of the most effective general strategies is to deny your opponent access to his or her accelerators, which also function as Natural Order sacrifice-dorks. The longer you delay the combo, the more time you give yourself to find an answer/to do enough damage that it no longer matters. By removing dorks, you're slowing the opponent down, but you're also ensuring that your Edicts will actually be able to hit Progenitus itself.

In conjunction with proactive efforts (pure beatdown, Elspeth, etc.), this strategy seems to work exceptionally well. You don't necessarily need a whole new set of cards, you just need to fine-tune your approach to the matchup.

I hope that makes sense/is helpful.

brianw712

02-04-2010, 12:57 PM

damionblackgear

02-04-2010, 03:05 PM

I've made a new list, and I don't know if it belongs here or in the Eva Green forum, but I'm posting it here anyway.

Lands (23):

4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Bojuka Bog (the new one from worldwake that exiles target player's graveyard)

Creatures (12):

4 Doran, the Siege Tower
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf

Disruption (12):

4 Thoughtseize
4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Hymn to Tourach

Removal (10):

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Vindicate

Miscellaneous (3):

3 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard (15):

4 Diabolic Edict
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt

I haven't tested it all that much, but from what I have tested, it's SIGNIFICANTLY faster than my older list, and as a consequence is performing much better. Thoughts?

So I'm all for the lack of Stronghold but with knight you can definitely use a couple more multipurpose lands. I've found Kor-haven to be amazing. Especially since it only fogs the attacking critter. Sometimes it's what you're left with.

How has the lack of Krosan Grip been going for you. I found that we have so many 3 drops that they normally just leave a 3 floating on top when they can get counter-top running.

How're you match-ups looking?

brianw712

02-04-2010, 06:01 PM

So I'm all for the lack of Stronghold but with knight you can definitely use a couple more multipurpose lands. I've found Kor-haven to be amazing. Especially since it only fogs the attacking critter. Sometimes it's what you're left with.

Kor Haven seems good, but I don't know if I can afford one more colorless land. One thing I noticed while testing this deck is that, since you often want BB by turn two for Hymn to Tourach, that you usually fetch for duals first. If you keep a land-light hand, this opens yourself up to massive mana screw by a turn one wasteland. Note that less than half the spells in the deck are castable with colorless mana. I'm not sure if Kor Haven would hurt more than it would help, but I'll test it. Stronghold isn't in for the same reason, and also because I find myself using Stronghold very, very infrequently, like 1 out of every 100 games maybe (at least in my older version).

How has the lack of Krosan Grip been going for you. I found that we have so many 3 drops that they normally just leave a 3 floating on top when they can get counter-top running.

I don't think CounterTop is really a bad matchup for The Rock. It's a lot less unreliable when you go turn one Thoughtseize, turn two Hymn, turn three play a threat and don't really have a need for playing 2 cc or 1 cc spells anymore. That's why I left Krosan Grip out of the board, because I think it's too narrow. It helps against CounterTop, Survival, and...I guess Landstill, Quinn, PainterStone? But all of these matchups can be remedied by switching up the E. Tutor toolbox in the board. You could include a lot of cards that I didn't, like Choke, Pithing Needle, Aura of Silence, whatever. I just haven't found space for them.

How're you match-ups looking?

Like I said, my testing with this version has been really light (and mostly preboard), but I'll give you a run down the best I can.

Countertop: Favorable
Survival Bant: Favorable
Aggro Loam: Even/Slightly Unfavorable, probably gets better after side
Goblins: Favorable (turns out targeted discard is AWESOME against goblins)
Merfolk: Favorable
ANT: Unfavorable, probably gets better after side
Zoo: Surprisingly even-favorable, I initially thought that the package Thoughtseize, Gerrard's Verdict, and Hymn would suck against Zoo, and although it makes you take a lot more damage initially, it also makes sure that your first threat doesn't get PTEd or burned. It usually gets to the point where you're at 5 life, but have a favorable board position, and they have to draw into two burn spells to win. But of course that's where self-targeted Gerrard's Verdict and self-targeted Swords to Plowshares come in=].

Yea, maybe my memory is biased, since most of those are favorable, I don't know (I didn't really keep track of games). If you want results for other matchups, ask me, or test it yourself.

damionblackgear

02-05-2010, 11:44 AM

Kor Haven seems good, but I don't know if I can afford one more colorless land. One thing I noticed while testing this deck is that, since you often want BB by turn two for Hymn to Tourach, that you usually fetch for duals first. If you keep a land-light hand, this opens yourself up to massive mana screw by a turn one wasteland. Note that less than half the spells in the deck are castable with colorless mana. I'm not sure if Kor Haven would hurt more than it would help, but I'll test it. Stronghold isn't in for the same reason, and also because I find myself using Stronghold very, very infrequently, like 1 out of every 100 games maybe (at least in my older version).

I hadn't taken a look at your mana requirements when I fist looked at the deck and I apologize for that. On that note, I'm wondering how the wastes are working out? do you need 4? it seems like they would come up and mess up a hand pretty easily. It's almost like they count as spells.

Yea, maybe my memory is biased, since most of those are favorable, I don't know (I didn't really keep track of games). If you want results for other matchups, ask me, or test it yourself.

That's more or less what Rock should do, have a decent game vs the field mainboard and be able to side the last answers to each individual issue. I'm wondering what the issue with Loam is. you look to have enough land to recover from DD as well as enough removal for their critters.

MrShine

02-05-2010, 12:02 PM

I think you should probably avoid Kor Haven; singleton lands are nice in certain situations but you are playing a very aggressive deck that is very colour intensive - like you said, BB T2 for hymn not to mention a green and white source in the mix for casting your beaters T3. the exception to this rule being Volrath's Stronghold, which has been amazing for me but my colour requirements are a little less stressed than yours (I always fetch basics if I can).

One thing that I've noticed about the rock is that stumbling on mana the first 4 turns will spell death for you... With your strategy requiring many duals wasteland + stifle can be backbreaking (9 fetches), which is relevant as merfolk is very popular at the moment (I see aLOT of merfolk here in montreal). You are playing 23 lands, though, so maybe you've been able to draw out of mana denial? I'm playing 21 and its just about enough; with your low curve I definitely think you could cut a couple lands.

Overall, I think the approach you are taking has merit, but might not be that well positioned in the meta as a whole these days. Discard is great vs blue (landstill especially) but I think 12 may be too much; you really are relying on Top to filter it away in the lategame when you are looking for threats... If I were you I would think about cutting it down to 10, or maybe just the Thoughtseize/Hymn Package. Unfortunately, as The Rock we can't afford bad topdecks as there is very little source of card advantage.

That being said, I would think about fitting in 1 or 2 Eternal Witness - these guys are great, mid game they buy back swords or discard as the situation warrants. In this case, cutting a land for a Stronghold would be fantastic - it sucks in your opener but if you are sticking with 23 that makes it 18 w/ 5 colourless sources which isnt too bad. It is just crazy with witness lategame when you need a little more reach than playing off the top, and doesn't completely fold to graveyard hate (which isn't that good against us anyway)

Is 4 Doran not too much? I would think about cutting him down to 2 or 3 while at the same time adding some more threats, as you are only running 12 which is VERY low. I am a big fan of Kitchen Finks, and Pridemage is awesome against soo much. While they may dilute the really powerful threats you are running, the addition of Jitte will give you real reach against almost all aggro and stomp them into the ground :D

Here's what I would change, keeping in mind your tight curve from 1-3:
-1 Doran
-1 Gerrard's verdict, -1 Hymn
-1 Deed
-1 Bog (I think this is too narrow to really be useful... post-board hate has always been enough for me vs dredge and its ilk)

+2 Eternal Witness
+2 Jitte
+1 Volrath's Stronghold

I really think you should test QP main, but I don't want to change your list too much... but if I were to fit them in I'd cut all the Verdicts, keep a full set or Hymns instead and throw 2 of these guys in together with the other changes

I really want to hash out the matchups too but I think that is for another time... I'll be back with my thoughts soon

brianw712

02-05-2010, 02:16 PM

I hadn't taken a look at your mana requirements when I fist looked at the deck and I apologize for that. On that note, I'm wondering how the wastes are working out? do you need 4? it seems like they would come up and mess up a hand pretty easily. It's almost like they count as spells.

The Wastelands are a little iffy; sometimes they're awesome, othertimes the colorless mana really screws me over. I'll keep in them in for now, just because I like the Knight of the Reliquary + Wasteland mini-lock (it happens more often than you might think). Maybe I'll cut them down to three.

I'm wondering what the issue with Loam is. you look to have enough land to recover from DD as well as enough removal for their critters.

The issue is that Loam has such a good late game compared to The Rock. Countryside Crusher, Terravore, and Goyf can outgrow Doran, and sometimes even Knight. The list I was testing against didn't play Burning Wish or DD, so I'm not really sure if I could recover from DD or not. The Seismic Assault/Loam combo is almost always GG, and it takes two turns to Deed it away; meanwhile they've done another 6-12 damage to you. I guess the trick is to out-aggro them; disrupt them with Seizes, Hymns, and whatnot, Deed away Moxen, and keep them off enough mana to stop Loam shenanigans. Yea I know its kind of crazy to try to mana screw a Loam-based deck, but...I don't know, that's just the strategy that's been working for me.

One thing that I've noticed about the rock is that stumbling on mana the first 4 turns will spell death for you... With your strategy requiring many duals wasteland + stifle can be backbreaking (9 fetches), which is relevant as merfolk is very popular at the moment (I see aLOT of merfolk here in montreal). You are playing 23 lands, though, so maybe you've been able to draw out of mana denial? I'm playing 21 and its just about enough; with your low curve I definitely think you could cut a couple lands.

I don't know if my deck necessarily has a low curve. Yea it does have a bunch of 1 cc and 2 cc cards, but it also has a huge clump at 3 cc. 4 Doran, 4 Knight, 4 Deed (which, ideally, would require 5 mana for play + activate in the same turn), 2 Vindicate. I'm already mulliganing due to lack of colored sources more than I would like with 23 lands, and I think reducing the number to 21 would be detrimental. Although I do get flooded sometimes=\.

That being said, I would think about fitting in 1 or 2 Eternal Witness - these guys are great, mid game they buy back swords or discard as the situation warrants. In this case, cutting a land for a Stronghold would be fantastic - it sucks in your opener but if you are sticking with 23 that makes it 18 w/ 5 colourless sources which isnt too bad. It is just crazy with witness lategame when you need a little more reach than playing off the top, and doesn't completely fold to graveyard hate (which isn't that good against us anyway)

Witness seems alright, I'll test it. The problem is, the 2/1 body isn't very relevant, so sometimes I wonder if Regrowth is just better. Volrath's Stronghold recursion is awesome if it happens, but even if it does happen it's often win-more. Excluding the funny things that can happen against PainterStone (Knight fetching Stronghold right after they go off), the Stronghold recursion is really only relevant against Landstill, and even then it's not that great. I think I would rather keep my colored source to have a better game against Merfolk, Goblins, Canadian Thresh, and whatnot.

Is 4 Doran not too much? I would think about cutting him down to 2 or 3 while at the same time adding some more threats, as you are only running 12 which is VERY low. I am a big fan of Kitchen Finks, and Pridemage is awesome against soo much. While they may dilute the really powerful threats you are running, the addition of Jitte will give you real reach against almost all aggro and stomp them into the ground :D

I've been thinking the same thing about Doran. I may go down to 2-3 for 1-2 Tombstalker, but that puts me at greater risk for grave-hate post-board. Running only 12 threats hasn't been too much of a problem for me, since they're all game enders by themselves. Kitchen Finks is awesome, I know, but I just haven't found space for them. Pridemage is good, too, but I've never really been a fan of him, since, in creature combat, he's less than phenomenal. When attacking, there's not much difference between a 7/7 Knight and an 8/8 knight; however, when blocking, a 2/2 body just doesn't kill much. Plus adding more two-drops means more self-destruction when Deed is activated.

Here's what I would change, keeping in mind your tight curve from 1-3:
-1 Doran
-1 Gerrard's verdict, -1 Hymn
-1 Deed
-1 Bog (I think this is too narrow to really be useful... post-board hate has always been enough for me vs dredge and its ilk)

+2 Eternal Witness
+2 Jitte
+1 Volrath's Stronghold

Hmm, well I've already discussed Witness and Stronghold, but I haven't discussed Jitte yet. With the revised list that you propose, I'm running 13 threats, which is kind of low to be adding in equipment. Yes, Jitte is amazing if active, but is also a mana sink before then, and is antisynergistic with Deed. I've tried it in the side before, and most of the time I wished it was something else instead.

damionblackgear

02-05-2010, 05:36 PM

brianw712

02-06-2010, 11:17 AM

On Loam - Why not run more vindicate's over deeds? All of our (the community's) lists are dropping in cost and there is nothing that survives a deed for 3 in your (you) deck right now, so why rely on it so heavily? I understand chalice for 1 hurts but you can beat that. Also, they can only recur their critters and you can fetch the bog when they try (or destroy the land then fetch it :-) so any dead non-critter is gone (baring the random witnesses).

Vindicate over Deeds would help in the Loam matchup, but I just think that Deed is soooo much better in other matchups. Against Bant Countertop: Deeds destroy Hierarchs, Counterbalance, Goyfs, Pridemages. Survival Bant: Hierarchs, Pridemages, Goyfs, Survival. Goblins and Merfolk: Deed is actually pretty bad here, but Vindicate wouldn't be much better. Canadian Thresh: Yea I guess Deed and Vindicate would be about even here. Zoo: Deed is better. Stax, Landstill, Quinn, Enchantress, and other slow decks with lots of permanents: Deed is better, although Vindicate is pretty good here too. Dredge: Deed owns Zombie tokens. Aggro Loam: Vindicate is better, although Deed is still good. In short, there are a lot of matchups where both Vindicate and Deed are good, but more where Deed is a lot better. And anyway, I just bought my playset of Deeds, I want to use them=].

Just wondering though, "What About Bob?" It may seem bad but, he draws you cards and you can swing with him. He's no Goyf but you can still swing him mighty 2'ly. Other threats show up sooner when you're drawing 2 a turn. You don't need to worry about your life, your deck's highest cost is 3. I have 4's & 5's in my rock build and still play him.

Hmm, I'm not sure if Bob is good enough in such an aggressive metagame. He's got 1 toughness (Mogg Fanatic, Gempalm Incinerator, any burn spell), 2 power (can't trade with most Zoo creatures, most Lord-pumped Merfolk, Rhox War Monk, Goyf, exalted Pridemage) and loses life for you (bad against Zoo, Merfolk, Goblins, possibly Canadian Thresh). Also, if I end up going -2 Doran +2 Tombstalker, then Bob becomes even riskier. Bob also needs a lot of time to work:

Bob survives 0 turns: He's a creature that drew removal. Decent.
Bob survives 1 turn: He's a Silvergill Adept that possibly lost you life, but also drew removal. Decent.
Bob survives 2 turns: He's a Night's Whisper on a body that drew removal. Good.
Bob survives 3 turns: He's awesome, you probably win the game if you aren't in a really bad position by now.

Again, 2 drop = antisynergistic with Deed.

Reading back over my posts, I realize that I might come off as a little stubborn, since I'm just rejecting all of these ideas=\. But I really do appreciate feedback, and even if I don't end up using a particular card in my deck, it might give me new ideas for what direction the deck should go in. I'll try to test as many of the community's ideas as possible with the time I have. So thanks.

damionblackgear

02-06-2010, 12:09 PM

Again, 2 drop = antisynergistic with Deed.

Yet we play Goyf because he's the best 2 drop critter. The thing is that it's Bob is the best 2 drop black critter. Don't worry about it with Stalker though. I have two 5cc, three 4cc, and almost 1/2 my deck 3cc. Bob won't pose a threat to you a lot. I'm not big on TS though. It is good though. I just don't like the card very much.

Reading back over my posts, I realize that I might come off as a little stubborn, since I'm just rejecting all of these ideas=\. But I really do appreciate feedback, and even if I don't end up using a particular card in my deck, it might give me new ideas for what direction the deck should go in. I'll try to test as many of the community's ideas as possible with the time I have. So thanks.

No worries. Most of us are like that. the idea's are at least there though. That's what matters.

brianw712

02-06-2010, 05:01 PM

Yet we play Goyf because he's the best 2 drop critter. The thing is that it's Bob is the best 2 drop black critter. Don't worry about it with Stalker though. I have two 5cc, three 4cc, and almost 1/2 my deck 3cc. Bob won't pose a threat to you a lot. I'm not big on TS though. It is good though. I just don't like the card very much.

After thinking about it for a while, I think I agree with you on Bob. I'm currently testing -3 Top +3 Bob. Although it might seem weird that I'm cutting one card and adding in another when those two cards work best together, I'm replacing Top with Bob because I think Bob does the same job but better. Bob doesn't need mana to work; Top does. Bob starts working the turn after you play him; Top usually starts to function well in the late game, when you have mana to spare, and when you're in topdeck mode. Bob draws removal, which is good; Top is bad in multiples (so is Bob most of the time, but at least you can get rid of one in combat). What sucks is that now my deck is almost 50% vulnerable to Spell Snare, but whatever, that isn't that big of an issue against most decks. And yea, I don't think I'll end up playing the Stalkers, since they're not that much better than Doran in the late game, but have the downside of not being castable as soon as possible.

damionblackgear

02-07-2010, 04:31 PM

You'll have to let me know how 3 turns out. I run 4 and 3 Tops but I would like to know how someone else things about dropping it to 3 bobs.

gvbarroso

02-09-2010, 08:17 PM

This is the list I'm currently using and its performing well

// Lands
3 Windswept Heath
3 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest

// Creatures
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
3 Doran, the Siege Tower

// Spells
2 Smother
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
2 Gerrard's Verdict
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Duress

damionblackgear

02-09-2010, 11:33 PM

I assume that when you cut the wastes that your mana issues went away. How's Bob been for you? Have you thought about upping his count or has 3 been enough?

james ribis

02-10-2010, 03:33 AM

im gonna post my version of the deck and is also up for discussion:

bloodstained mire x4
windswept heath x4
scrub land x4
bayou x4
waste land x4
swamp x1
plains x1

thought seize x4
hymn to tourach x4
dark ritual x4
swords to plowshares x4
vindicate x4

sensei's divining top x3

tidehollow sculler x4
dark confidant x4
tarmogoyf x4
tomb stalker x3

sideboard

leyline of the void x4
duress x4
pernicious deed x3
engineered plague x4

i was considering to add volraths stronghold and a copy of a forest in case so they cant waste away my lands. i find this a more control version as it controls the field and the hand. please give me any ideas or concerns you have about my deck thanks

brianw712

02-10-2010, 09:43 AM

I assume that when you cut the wastes that your mana issues went away. How's Bob been for you? Have you thought about upping his count or has 3 been enough?

Haha, me and gvbarroso aren't the same person, but it's true that our lists are VERY similar. About Bob, I've had literally no time to test my list, so I can't really say. Cutting a Doran for Bob is always an option, since Doran is legendary. I'm still torn on the Wastelands. Maybe I'll try to work on some calculations, seeing how many 1 colored land + 1 wasteland hands would turn into 2 colored land hands if I made the switch. If the percentage is high enough, I'll consider cutting them, but I still want a Knight of the Reliquary lock. Maybe a singleton Dust Bowl would work for that?

@gvbarroso: Have you ever missed having Pernicious Deed? Having 12 spot removal (what you have) might be the better approach, since it speeds up the deck.

@james ribis: That's an interesting list. Looks kind of like Deadguy splash green for Goyf. A 4 Bayou 4 Scrubland manabase vs. my 2 Savannah 2 Scrubland 2 Bayou manabase is interesting, yours might be better since you want to hit BB turn two for Hymn. I'm questioning Dark Rit though. It can only accelerate you into Seize + Hymn, Seize + Confidant, and Stalker. It seems more suitable for Eva Green style decks that can also accelerate into Hypnotic Specter, Seize + Sinkhole, a quick Jitte + equip, or a late-game Shade pump. I don't know if it does enough in your deck to warrant having it.

damionblackgear

02-10-2010, 11:48 AM

... Oops. Didn't notice the name. sorry about that. Dust bowl sounds like a good option and can be used a couple of times. Maybe that's the way to go.

Overall I'm a fan of KotR but, both of your lists are so color Dependant that he's almost unable to be used to his full potential.

@James - You should look at Brian Kowal's List from GP Chicago. It is your list, almost to the letter. He's running Mesmeric Fiend over Sculler to have more synergy with Ritual.

james ribis

02-10-2010, 12:57 PM

yea i was thinking he fiend over sculler but i find sculler better as it is a artifact and if it dies tarm power. i know the rites only excel for discard power then pretty much dead for say but in certain cases turn one thought hymn is game. any suggestions what i can turn them into or perhaps changing making my list better

gvbarroso

02-10-2010, 01:50 PM

Yes, I took the list of brianw712 as a template, because I like it very much, and then modified it to fit Bobs and improve the mana base. First I was thinking about keeping a singleton Wasteland and even a Dust Bowl. But the single Wasteland is not very impressive and Dust Bowl is just TOO slow. This way I can run 21-22 lands (using the later numer currently) without worrying about getting screwed by colorless mana.

I believe 3 is the best number for Bobs. It feels very good, and it provides me the card advantage needed not to run SDT.

Cutting Deeds was a consequence of including Bobs, and the deck is faster now. I actually dont miss them...

I also cut 2 Gerrard's Verdict for 2 Duress because my mana curve was too focused on 2 and I wasnt beeing able to cast 1st turn drops.

damionblackgear

02-10-2010, 03:06 PM

@ James - I'm all for Kowal's list but I am not a fan of Plague. In most cases landing 2 against a tribal deck is game but, you have to successfully cast them both. Additionally, the 2 tribal decks that are being played now are Gobs and Folk. Both of these decks play lords (some play multiple lords). That means that you have to remove them from the game as well as land 2 plagues.

@gvbarroso - The color dependency has got worried. How has that been for you? are you able to operate off of limited lands (due to waste or style)?

brianw712

02-10-2010, 03:46 PM

@ James - I'm all for Kowal's list but I am not a fan of Plague.

I agree, I'm a BIG advocator of Infest over Engineered Plague. Sure E. Plague sticks around, but, one Infest is usually enough to swing the game heavily in your favor. It might not be right for your list since it kills your own scullers and confidants, but in general I think that Infest is better, because it can't be Gripped/Disenchanted/destroyed in any way.

gvbarroso

02-10-2010, 05:45 PM

Its not hard to play around wasteland with my list. But sifle is different. Things can get pretty bad if one stifle hits one of my fetches in the first 4 turns, depending on my hand...but I think getting a fetchland stifled is a serious problem for almost every deck!

I wasnt sure what to side in against aggro, but I believe I'm also adopting Infest. Do we have another options? Also, what to side against Zoo?

brianw712

02-10-2010, 07:32 PM

I wasnt sure what to side in against aggro, but I believe I'm also adopting Infest. Do we have another options? Also, what to side against Zoo?

This is the sideboard I'm currently tinkering around with:

3 Gaddock teeg
4 Infest
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Extirpate

I just side in the Edicts against Zoo. I like Edict because I can also side it in against Tempo Thresh, Team America, anything that plays Progenitus, anything that plays Iona (they will name white), and anything else that plays a lot of creatures. Of course you already mainboard two, maybe put two in the side and two Paths in the side as well? You could also try putting in Deed in the side, since it's good against not just Zoo but Enchantress, any Stompy list, Stax, the new UW Tempo, most decks that play Noble Hierarch, and it's pretty good against Aggro Loam (hits Moxen/Chalice guaranteed).

Don't forget that against Zoo you can save lands in your hand for Gerrard's Verdict targeting yourself, and of course the old trick of Swordsing your own creature.

By the way, I haven't done the math I was talking about doing, but I think that Wasteland really fits in the deck. Sure it might up the mulligan percentage/keeping a bad hand percentage, but it just wins so many games for me. They're not just good because of the KoTR lock, but just drawing and playing one screws your opponent up so much, especially if preceded by a Hymn. I think the addition of Confidant really helped, since it can help you find more colored mana, and you don't need a colorless open every time like Top. So for now, for me, Wastelands are here to stay.

For my list, I think that P. Deed is here to stay. It's just so good against so many decks. I don't know why, but I just really like the way my mainboard is right now :smile:

brianw712

02-10-2010, 08:11 PM

Alright I did some math. For a list with 23 lands, 19 of which produce colored mana and 4 of which are Wastelands, the probability of drawing a hand with one Wasteland and one colored source is 8.578%. We'll call these hands borderline. The probability of drawing a hand with only two lands, both of which are Wastelands, is 0.677%. We'll call these hands unkeepable. The probability of drawing a hand with two lands, both of which produce colored mana, is 19.300%. We'll call these hands keepable.

For a list with 22 lands, all of which produce colored mana, the probability of drawing a hand with only two lands is 26.072%.

So, comparing gvbarroso's list with mine, a 22 land configuration has about 7% more two-land keepable hands than a 23 land configuration with 4 Wastelands.

Of course, hands containing one, or three or more lands were not taken into account. Post-mulligan hands were also not taken into account.

Eh, 7% is kind of high, but even if Wastelands win you the game only 3% of the time, I feel that their inclusion is worth it (since not every mulligan leads to a game loss). And I think that Wastelands win more than 1/33 games that you play.

Arsenal

02-10-2010, 08:36 PM

brianw712

02-10-2010, 09:29 PM

What advantages are there to playing the Aggro version of The Rock versus something like Eva Green? To me, Aggro Rock is trading in the explosiveness of Eva Green's Dark Ritual brokenness for a slightly better mid-game.

I think you're right in saying that. However, I also think it's a matter of consistency. A lot of Eva Green's cards are very situational. Dark Rit is only really good in the opening hand, Putrid Leech is only good vs. no Tarmogoyfs, Jitte is only good with creatures in play, Nantuko Shade isn't all that great of a turn two play, Sinkhole is only good early, and Hypnotic Specter is only a good play turn 1. This leaves Eva Green with a lot of hands that go like: Dark Rit, Jitte, Swamp, Verdant Catacombs, Nantuko Shade, Reanimate, Maelstrom Pulse. Not that that hand is bad, it's just not as "broken" as it could be. A single STP leaves that hand in topdeck mode. Meanwhile, Aggro Rock is a lot more consistent. Maybe you get hands like: Verdant Catacombs, Marsh Flats, Gerrard's Verdict, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Pernicious Deed, Wasteland. It's not very explosive at all (it doesn't even have a turn 1 play!) but the combination of the must-answer Confidant, the must-answer Goyf, and the answer-all Deed makes it a very strong hand.

gvbarroso

02-12-2010, 08:44 AM

I just came by to say that I'm runnin a singleton wasteland and that I'm happy with it.

As for the Eva green vs. Aggro rock, I have to agree with brian. Not that one deck is strictly better than the other. Its more a matter of playstyle and kind of a metagame choice...

damionblackgear

02-12-2010, 11:01 AM

What advantages are there to playing the Aggro version of The Rock versus something like Eva Green? To me, Aggro Rock is trading in the explosiveness of Eva Green's Dark Ritual brokenness for a slightly better mid-game.

Brian hit the nail on the head. I'd like to go in more detail though.

In general, Rock wants to build it's advantage and win by hindering its opponents development and current board state without extensive damage to its own, improving, state. To put it simply, Rock plays almost as a Mid-ranged tempo deck. Its spells are typically meant to provide versatility to issues that could come up during a match (Vindicate hits permanents, Thoguhtseize grabs a non-land, deed recovers a lost board position). Everything down to it's creatures are meant to be more than what they look (Knight increases the probability to draw a spell over a land, Sculler assists in controlling a hand, Goyf to remove creatures). In general, Rock builds are constructed to be able to use all of their spells as swiss army knives.

Eva Green is an adaptation of Suicide black, a deck that is bent on destroying the opponent's board/hand even at the cost of it's own resources, and Eva Green stays true to it's roots in most situations. The creatures are typically more efficient power-wise but less efficient in the mid to late game, as majority of them are also not multi-purposed or have drawbacks which hinder their own production (Tombstalker but must have a graveyard built to cast, Shade must be pumped, Gofy's power can be hindered by casting a Tombstalker).

The difference between Agro-Rock and Eva Green is simply that Rock wants to be able to adapt to the match it's in (without having to adjust much of it's core). Eva Green tends to side in answers to the issues it provided Game 1. Rock should be siding in more issues to be dealt with, as it should have the answers to most decks main and simply be increasing it's game-play style against whatever it plays.

Because of the difference, Rock decks are more resilient than Eva Green and able to adapt to an issue presented by the opponent better than an Eva Green player. It does lose the explosive starts and has to almost play catch-up with the faster decks.

So to answer your questions with one word, Resilience. You play Agro-Rock over Eva Green because it's more Resilient.

On a side note, I believe that Rock decks are also harder to pilot as you have to weigh each decision amongst what could be. This is why I don't see the deck getting played as much as it used to.

-----

gvbarroso - I'm curious why only 1 Waste? I do like the idea and you can fetch it with Knight but, I don't see what one Waste really does for you. It seems that without a way to either reoccur, it is just a random LD spell. There are much better lands to play over the Waste if you only want a 1 of.

gvbarroso

02-12-2010, 02:48 PM

I run only 1 Wasteland just in case I see my opponent is having a hard time with its manabase. I also run 4 Vindicate, so I can often hit 2 lands if I see he's in trouble in that way. I would like to play 4 Wasteland, but a 3-color deck can't afford them, in my opinion.

damionblackgear

02-12-2010, 03:08 PM

I would run 2 or 3 (preferably 3) should be ok. The 4th is a bad idea because of the amount of generic mana required for your spell (it's really low) so you need the colored mana more than the Generic that you'll get. I would try testing it with 2 and then after that (if you like it) with 3. That way you can figure out how to wing with the extra colorless.

brianw712

02-12-2010, 04:19 PM

I did some more math to contribute to the Wasteland vs. no Wasteland discussion.

First off, I'll start off with my loose definition of a mulliganable hand. Mulliganable seven-card hands consist of:

1. No lands.
2. Only one land.
3. Only two lands: one color-producing land and one Wasteland.
4. Only two lands, both being Wastelands.
5. Only three lands: two Wastelands and one color-producing land.
6. Only three lands, all three being Wastelands.
7. Only four lands: three Wastelands and one color-producing land.
8. Only four lands, all four being Wastelands.
9. Five lands or more.

Of course, not everyone always adheres to all of these guidelines; there are certainly situations in which you would keep one land hands or five land hands. This is only a simple model. However, it is still pretty close to reality, and so is still useful.

For a 23 land build with 4 Wastelands, the mulligan probability is about 34.77%, which is pretty high. For a 23 land build with 0 Wastelands, the mulligan probability goes down to 23.34%--over an 11% difference. If you assume that each Wasteland contributes an equal amount to the mulligan rate (which isn't true, but it's not a bad assumption), then you can calculate mulligan probabilities with 1, 2, or 3 Wastelands as well.

You can do the same thing for any number of lands and any number of Wastelands. Personally, although I would like closer to a 25% mulligan rate, I think I'm still going to include the four Wastelands. Maybe I'll cut it down to three, I'll have to think about it some more.

gvbarroso

02-12-2010, 04:19 PM

Yes, I was in doubt about running 1 or 2. When I'm done testing 1, I will add another one. But I don't think I will make it to 3...Not with 22 lands, at least, and I don't like the 23rd land at all.

damionblackgear

02-12-2010, 04:58 PM

So what is the lists you're both testing now? I'm sorry we've been working on them so much that It's been a little difficult for me to alter and keep up.

brianw712

02-13-2010, 10:47 PM

The list I'm currently testing is:

Lands (23):

3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Bojuka Bog

Creatures (14):

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
3 Dark Confidant

Disruption (12):

4 Thoughtseize
4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Hymn to Tourach

Removal (11):

4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate

Sideboard (15):

3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Infest
4 Extirpate
4 Diabolic Edict

gvbarroso

02-14-2010, 09:56 AM

Brian, haven't the Deeds been a pain in the ass of your confidants and goyfs? Is it worth it to run a full set of them?

By the way, I strongly suggest to cut 2 Verdicts for 2 Duresses. I believe it is very important to have a 1st turn drop in as many games as possible, and this little change kinda improves the chances of that happening. Moreover, it also improves your mana curve as it lowers the probability of holding multiple cc2 spells in your hand, which you cannot take full advantage of when you have 3 mana available, for example.

damionblackgear

02-14-2010, 11:07 AM

I just realized you have 9 fetches. Nothing against having more ability to find the colors you need but... why so much of a life investment?

brianw712

02-14-2010, 11:11 AM

Brian, haven't the Deeds been a pain in the ass of your confidants and goyfs? Is it worth it to run a full set of them?

Nope, Deeds have been spectacular. The thing about Deed is that it is so so so so versatile. It will always benefit you when you crack it (unless it gets Stifled). If you're winning, then you can either crack the Deed to put you in a better position (say, by destroying potential blockers) or you can not crack it (say, if you have a Goyf and a Confidant out that you don't want to destroy). If you're losing, well then Deed saves you, unless it's a Tombstalker, Iona, or Progenitus beating you down. It's never a bad card, is basically the point I'm trying to make; it's effectiveness is entirely determined by how you decide to use it. Coupled with Vindicates, Wastelands, and KotR, it can actually mana screw some people out of the game (I mean by blowing up Vials, Noble Hierarchs, and Mox Diamonds). Sorry if this post is kind of all over the place, I'm just having a hard time describing Deed's versatility. Against most matchups, I always want to see one; however, against most matchups, I usually don't want to see more than one, so maybe the full playset isn't necessary.

By the way, I strongly suggest to cut 2 Verdicts for 2 Duresses. I believe it is very important to have a 1st turn drop in as many games as possible, and this little change kinda improves the chances of that happening. Moreover, it also improves your mana curve as it lowers the probability of holding multiple cc2 spells in your hand, which you cannot take full advantage of when you have 3 mana available, for example.

Ok, I'll try that.

brianw712

02-14-2010, 11:16 AM

I just realized you have 9 fetches. Nothing against having more ability to find the colors you need but... why so much of a life investment?

You always want Knight to be huge when you play it. Maybe the life loss is too much, but it's hard to tell (when was the last time you attributed a loss to too many fetches?). It could also potentially just be a relic from my old list where I had Tops, and therefore wanted as many shuffle effects as possible. Basically, the answer is, I don't know whether 9 is right or not. But when I can say is, against non-Stifle-but-with-Wasteland decks, fetches really help you avoid mana screw. Being able to fetch basics consistently is a big plus.

Arsenal

02-14-2010, 11:40 AM

If you're in a winning board position, I don't see how cracking a Deed can remove blockers as almost all of your own creatures are 2-3cc; unless your opponent is running 1cc creatures only (unlikely), then wouldn't Deed be symmetrical for the most part? I can see why you'd want a "reset" button in case you find yourself staring at an army, but I would think 2, maybe 3 maximum, would suffice.

Also, I've noticed that Aggro Rock splits into two distinct lists; GW with a light splash of black, then BW with a light splash of green. The BWg version tends to run Nighthawk, Kiyomaro, and a lot more discard effects. The GWb version tends to run the traditional creature set (KotR, Witness, etc) and forgoes most discard effects in order to run more removal. I would suspect your meta will dictate which Aggro Rock build to run, but just looking at each build's respective creatures, I see the BWg version to have the most impact. Nighthawk and Kiyomaro (backed up by Verdict, Hymn, Duress/Thoughtsieze, Sculler) are absolutely monsters, easily can put the game out of reach against most aggro decks, and they just get silly with Doran.

What are your guys' thoughts on the BWg vs. the GWb builds?

damionblackgear

02-14-2010, 01:25 PM

Brian,

You always want Knight to be huge when you play it.

The best part about Knight is that he makes himself big over the course of 1 turn. It doesn't have to be when you play him as you can grow him from scratch to a 5 as soon as he's active (waste your own non-basic).

Maybe the life loss is too much, but it's hard to tell (when was the last time you attributed a loss to too many fetches?). It could also potentially just be a relic from my old list where I had Tops, and therefore wanted as many shuffle effects as possible.

Every time we lose a game we should be wondering, "What caused of the loss." It's helped me tune a list and think of different things to test. Everything down to reducing the number of Duals down to 3 and the rest as basics. 9 Just seems high when you kinda want lands for Bob. Especially without Top. Try 5-7.

But when I can say is, against non-Stifle-but-with-Wasteland decks, fetches really help you avoid mana screw. Being able to fetch basics consistently is a big plus.

Fetching basics isn't the best thing for you, due to your color requirements. And the Wastes may not come fast but they will hit hard when they do. You should include another basic swamp to the list and drop one of the fetches to that this stays true. Also, It may not seem big but Stompy lists are testing Avalanche Riders again... One could count as the game vs them.

------

Arsenal, To be honest with you I can't actually help with this one, I'm a Control Rock player and I didn't notice a split as far as GWb and BWg on the aggro side. Both Brian and Gvbarroso should be able to help with that a little better than I can.

brianw712

02-14-2010, 03:10 PM

The best part about Knight is that he makes himself big over the course of 1 turn. It doesn't have to be when you play him as you can grow him from scratch to a 5 as soon as he's active (waste your own non-basic).

While this is true, it's much better if he's already big when you play him so you don't have to waste a turn using his ability. For example, let's say you're playing against Zoo. If you play Knight and he's only a 3/3, you can't favorably block Nacatls or Pridemages, and it's easily Bolted before you get another turn. If you play Knight and he's already a 5/5, you can block and save yourself 3-4 life. I've even had some games against Reanimator where I could race an Iona with Knight. Waiting an extra turn to pump up Knight would have lost me those games. While Knight's ability is definitely useful, it does take time to set up, and sometimes you just don't have that time.

Fetching basics isn't the best thing for you, due to your color requirements. And the Wastes may not come fast but they will hit hard when they do. You should include another basic swamp to the list and drop one of the fetches to that this stays true. Also, It may not seem big but Stompy lists are testing Avalanche Riders again... One could count as the game vs them.

If I know the deck I'm playing against plays Wastelands, I always fetch basics first if I don't have a Hymn in hand. Even if I can only hit two of the three colors, having two basics out is better than getting one of your two dual lands Wasted. About including a second Swamp, I don't see myself ever fetching two Swamps on turn two just for a Hymn, unless I'm really flooded and have enough fetches to get the other two colors. Usually one of each basic is enough. Also, Fetches are like pseudo-basics, in that they provide the choice to get one of two basics, with the cost of being Stifle-able and paying a life. I think that Fetches are the best insurance we have against LD; they are even better than basics against Sinkhole and Avalanche Riders, and prevent yourself from getting color screwed.

If you're in a winning board position, I don't see how cracking a Deed can remove blockers as almost all of your own creatures are 2-3cc; unless your opponent is running 1cc creatures only (unlikely), then wouldn't Deed be symmetrical for the most part? I can see why you'd want a "reset" button in case you find yourself staring at an army, but I would think 2, maybe 3 maximum, would suffice.

Deed is only symmetrical only if you choose it to be. For example, say you have a Goyf and a Deed vs. a Rhox War Monk and a Noble Hierarch. Sure, if you used it now, it would be a 2-for-2--no net card advantage. But you actually have the advantage in such a situation. Assuming that Goyf is a 4/5 at this point, the opponent can do absolutely nothing to break the standstill. If he attacks, you crack the Deed for 1, Goyf becomes a 5/6, and you block the RWM. If he commits more resources to the board, Deed nets you card advantage. If he keeps resources in his hand, Hymn and Gerrard's Verdict net you card advantage. And since your threats (Doran, Knight, Dark Confidant) are much scarier than his (Pridemage, Clique), you actually gain off this standstill. You keep playing huge threats protected by Hymns and Verdicts, while he draws countermagic and can't really play threats profitably for fear of Deed. Although it may not seem like it at first glance, you definitely have the advantage in this situation.

Although that might have seemed like a lot of blabbing about one really specific situation which might never show up, it just shows that there is much more to Deed than strictly resetting the board. It's about strategically placing yourself in a position where your opponent is damned no matter what play he makes.

Also, I've noticed that Aggro Rock splits into two distinct lists; GW with a light splash of black, then BW with a light splash of green. The BWg version tends to run Nighthawk, Kiyomaro, and a lot more discard effects. The GWb version tends to run the traditional creature set (KotR, Witness, etc) and forgoes most discard effects in order to run more removal. I would suspect your meta will dictate which Aggro Rock build to run, but just looking at each build's respective creatures, I see the BWg version to have the most impact. Nighthawk and Kiyomaro (backed up by Verdict, Hymn, Duress/Thoughtsieze, Sculler) are absolutely monsters, easily can put the game out of reach against most aggro decks, and they just get silly with Doran.

What are your guys' thoughts on the BWg vs. the GWb builds?

I haven't noticed this particular split, and would argue that my build falls into neither category. I believe that the BWg version that you talk about is called Senor Weenie, and there is a separate thread for that. I'm not really sure how it plays out compared to the Rock, so I can't really comment on their similarities or differences. But to me, it seems that Senor Weenie is about overwhelming card advantage (it plays Skeletal Scrying/Sylvan Library too, doesn't it?), without that much board control. Maybe it relies on its lifelink creatures to control the board state as far as aggro decks are concerned. But I'm not really sure, maybe you could look at the Senor Weenie thread to answer your questions.

gvbarroso

02-14-2010, 05:14 PM

Yes, I also think he is referring to Senor Weenie. But I also think that Senor Weenie is actually a version o The Rock, devoted to card advantage and life gain instead of board control. I never really thought in terms o such a split, but I dont think it matters just to formalize the differences.

One thing can come up from the enlightment o the different plans of these Rock versions, though. Have you guys ever considered running something like 4 Vampires Nighthawk and 3 Kitchen Finks in the sideboard to put in against very aggro strategies? I think the may do a better job than Deed (which sometimes is symmetrical) and Infest (which often cant get the job done)...

brianw712

02-14-2010, 06:09 PM

One thing can come up from the enlightment o the different plans of these Rock versions, though. Have you guys ever considered running something like 4 Vampires Nighthawk and 3 Kitchen Finks in the sideboard to put in against very aggro strategies? I think the may do a better job than Deed (which sometimes is symmetrical) and Infest (which often cant get the job done)...

That's an interesting idea. However, both of those creatures cost three mana to play, and some aggressive decks (Goblins and Merfolk specifically) will put you so behind before you reach three mana that Kitchen Finks or Vampire Nighthawk won't help you all that much. I prefer to board in more removal so that I can survive the early game, stabilize, and dominate the mid-game.

damionblackgear

02-14-2010, 07:04 PM

I can tell you from experience that you shouldn't could on creatures to win against Gobs. Scourger will make you regret it every time. I like Propaganda styled enchantments as they are tougher to deal with and buy you time.

gvbarroso

02-16-2010, 03:04 PM

I dont think 3 mana is that much. After all, besided StP, I run Smother and Diabolic Edict...Together with with thoughtseizse and the 2cc Goyf and even Bob, they assure me that I will have a calm board by the 3rd turn. Also, I dont think scourger is that harmful, specially if I board in Finks... Any thoughts?

damionblackgear

02-16-2010, 04:16 PM

There is something about a critter that just doesn't seem right as an answer to me. Maybe it's just my oppinion and I could be wrong but relying on something that's almost guaranteed to die just seems wrong.

It's not the first turns that they'll take you out. It'll be the 4th or 5th where you played the Finks expecting to have a blocker and then learn that off the charged vial and the 3-5 lands of their own they can play enough to win. That's what I would like to slow down. We can handle one or two of them swinging at us, it's when the whole red army comes down in a blaze of little red critters that are pumped by the leader(s) and you're out of answers because we played the blocker that I start to get worried.

So why not just solve the problem before that happens? Like you said you have enough removal. Slowing them down looks better to me than trying to throw a guy in their path. Even if he does come back.

brianw712

02-22-2010, 10:40 PM

My new list:

Lands (22):

2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Bojuka Bog

Creatures (13):

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Doran, the Siege Tower
3 Dark Confidant

Disruption (12):

4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Gerrard's Verdict

Removal (10):

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Swords to Plowshares

Manipulation (3):

3 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard (15):

4 Diabolic Edict
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Armadillo Cloak (Secret Tech! still under testing)

There aren't many differences between this and my last list, but a couple major ones I would like to point out:

1. The re-addition of Top: After removing Top from my list I found that I missed it. I didn't like having my only source of deck manipulation be so vulnerable to removal, and I was left in topdeck mode more often than I liked. I also didn't like not being able to play Bob under 10 life against aggressive decks, without the fear of too much life loss ending up killing me. Top solves both problems, and it's another reason for the high fetch count.

2. Vindicate --> Maelstrom Pulse: Not really too relevant of a change. I just didn't feel that I was using Vindicate's land-hitting ability all that much, and I wanted more answers to Iona set on white. The fact that you can hit multiples is nice, but wasn't the primary reason for the switch.

3. Back to an E-Tutor Sideboard: I didn't feel like I had enough in my old sideboard to address all the matchups I wanted to. Enlightened Tutor allows me to run more graveyard and combo hate, with the only loss being Infest (but ARMADILLO CLOAK surely makes up for that, right?). And yes, I do think Armadillo Cloak is better than Jitte in that last slot. In my opinion, Goyfs, Knights, and Dorans are scarier with Armadillo Cloaks than they are with Jittes.

AggroSteve

02-23-2010, 07:04 AM

"And yes, I do think Armadillo Cloak is better than Jitte in that last slot. In my opinion, Goyfs, Knights, and Dorans are scarier with Armadillo Cloaks than they are with Jittes."

you've got a point there, it stopps goyfstalls, an gives trample, i'm actually using Sword of Light and Shadow mainboard, instead of jitte. Some people now might think: "Why, are you stupid or something?", I've allready heard such comments^^, though my argumenting on it is, I play deed, and sword is much less likely to die to deed than Jitte is, plus it makes your guys bigger, which is good, and it gives your guys protections from the major removal spells out there, plus some sort of evasion as well, depending on the opponents deck

just immagine, sometimes it even gave me "goodgame", cause without swords they coudn't handle a 7/7 doran

so back on tipic, i think, as long as you're playing deed, Jitte is no good IMO, and i'm playing sword for the reasons above, and due to the lack of goyfs
the only thing that bugs me with armadillo cloak, is that if you lose the enchantet creature, your opponent actually gets cardadvantage, thats all

and i apologise for my english, cause i'm german (south tyrolian in italy to be precice) and last time i wrote something in english, was 5 years ago

arebennian

02-23-2010, 07:26 AM

Behemoth Sledge doesn't open you up to a 2-for-1, but it's twice as slow.
Don't know if that trade is acceptable or not...

[EDIT]: I don't think that either is a particularly good move.

AggroSteve

02-23-2010, 07:27 AM

since i'm all fired up now, i'd like to ask you guys for help on my rock list,

my problem is, as written before, the lack of goyfs, and (not written before) the lack of the good duals (using shocklands from ravnica block)

so, here than comes my list, and it's quite a bit diffrent to the list from brianw712

Lands (21)

3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswepth Heath
3 Godless Shrine
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Plains

Creatures (18)

2 Quasali Pridemage
2 Eternal Wittness
3 Dark Confidant
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Doran, the Siege Tower

2 Tombstalker / Loxodon Hierarch (still not sure which one is better in my case)

Removal/Discard (11/6)

4x vindicate
3x pernicoius deed
4x sword to plowshares
3x thoughtsieze
3x hymn to tourach

Other (5)

3x sensei's divining top
2x sword of light and shadow

well, since i'm still relatively new here, i was hoping that the more expierienced people on this thread could give me some advise, reguarding my list
should i change something?
if yes what to change and why?
.........
but pleas consider that my wallet is not able to get the hands ond goyfs and duals (hopely not for long anymore)

and it shoud be 61 cards in total i believe, and no one can change my mind about that :D

thx, and again excuse my english, i realy can't evaluate right now if my english is all right or completely wide of the mark

Jak

03-02-2010, 05:38 PM

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-02-2010, 08:34 PM

I was hoping I could get some feedback on this Doran Aggro build I just came up with. Some of the choices are a little unorthodox, I guess, but that's why I was asking you good folks what you think about it:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Bitterblossom
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Doran, the Siege Tower

4 Thoughtsieze
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sylvan Library
3 Vindicate
2 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Bayou
3 Savannah
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold

...So. What do y'all think?

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-02-2010, 08:35 PM

Valarne

03-03-2010, 03:50 AM

@Duke: It would be much more constructive if you covered your thoughts and choices - I am sure there must have been some leading to your list. I'll question these choices (not saying they're bad, just inquiring):

4 Mother
3 Bitterblossom (Both the count and the card)
2 Teeg ( --"--)
2 Sylvan Library (The card versus Top)
2 Maelstrom Pulse (the card versus Vindicate, and the number in conjunction with your other removal)

Teeg, BB and Mother in an aggro-strategy.
13 spot removal in an aggro-strategy.

And questions on stuff not in the list:

Tombstalker, Top, Bob.

Think of this as a Socratic way of inquiry, trying to give you the tools or the angle, to analyze your own question.

Peace - Tue

James22

03-03-2010, 04:06 PM

Always have had a soft spot for The Rock. It's ability to accumulate card advantage over the course of the game via sweepers, creatures, etc always made it a cool deck in my opinion. I have also been fiddling around with a 2 card combo that accumulates card advantage over the course of the game. Both pieces are fine on there own and both fit very well into a BGr Rock deck. Here's the list.

Punishing Rock
By Jak.

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
2 Swamp
1 Forest

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
3 Tombstalker

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed

2 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Touarch

SB
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Firespout
2 Krosan Grip
2 Gigapede

I would really love to fit in some more creatures, so I may cut the two Hymns. I have no idea what would go in their place. Maybe Kitchen Finks, but I would like something a little cheaper and bigger.

Edit-
Ooooh, Vampire Nighthawk! That card could definitely work out. It still is small, but has evasion, gains life, and can take out bigger guys. I might just throw 4 in there.

Tentative changes:

-2 Hymn
-2 Therapy

+4 Vampire Nighthawk

I haven't tested your deck, but I've tested a bit another version of Rock GBR, developed by an Italian player that made a top4 at a 60-70 players tournament. Running red in spite of white, I think you should consider to include bloodbraid elf. It makes card advantage... its sinergy with sensei's diving top is amazing (remember also that it has haste and so it speeds also up your race). IMHO punishing fire isn't enough strong to be included. Isn't Terminate better?

This is the list I'm talking about:

JUND ROCK

// Lands
2 Bayou
3 Swamp
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Mountain
3 Forest

// Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Eternal Witness
3 Kitchen Finks

// Spells
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thoughtseize
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Terminate
3 Maelstrom Pulse

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Kitchen Finks
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Choke

Jak

03-03-2010, 04:15 PM

I haven't tested your deck, but I've tested a bit another version of Rock GBR, developed by an Italian player that made a top4 at a 60-70 players tournament. Running red in spite of white, I think you should consider to include bloodbraid elf. It makes card advantage... its sinergy with sensei's diving top is amazing (remember also that it has haste and so it speeds also up your race). IMHO punishing fire isn't enough strong to be included. Isn't Terminate better?

Bloodbraid Elf is pretty meh in my opinion. You get the card advantage, but a weak creature in modern Legacy. I could care less about it speeding up the clock because my build is much more control oriented. It can't play defense well and it is pretty bad in a deck with Lightning Bold, Thoughtseize, Punishing Fire, etc. Also, what if the opponent has no creatures out (ie combo, heavy control, etc)? Do you play it?

Terminate is decent removal, but it is a 1 for 1. Punishing Fire is ridiculous against aggro (Merfolk, Elves, Goblins, Zoo). It hits early and later comes back to deal with 2 creatures. It is also reusable damage against control decks if your creatures can't push through. Early, it takes down Lord of Atlantis. Once you reach three mana, it takes a dude out a turn. Once you reach five, it hit two guys. I also don't run Terminate since I have plenty of ways to handle Tarmogoyf and I would rather have the card advantage and late game power that Punishing Fire provides.

Arne

03-08-2010, 05:31 AM

My list:

Creatures:
4 tarmogoyf
4 kitchen finks (Aggro eat your heart out!)
4 dark confidant
3 eternal witness

Spells:
4 thoughtseize
4 path to exile
4 swords to plowshares
4 vindicate

Artifacts:
4 sensei's divining top

Planeswalkers:
2 elspeth, knight-errant

Lands:
4 wasteland
3 bayou
2 scrubland
1 savannah
3 verdant catacombs
3 marsh flats
2 windswept heath
2 forest
2 plains
1 swamp

SB:
under construction

My manabase configuration is a bit off because I recently switched from black to white orientated... I'm looking for cards to cut so I can fit in a couple of knight of the reliquary (for which I'm going to adjust my manabase as well). This deck is built to fight aggro (my meta is aggroheavy). My sideboard will consist of good cards against control and combo.

What do you think? I must say that the control approach towards the rock suits me and feels right

damionblackgear

03-08-2010, 11:00 AM

As you said your list is for your meta. And I think it's fine for something like that.

If you are planning to add the knights I would cut a witness (You're super redundant already and probably won'y need to recur much) and 2 Path to Exiles. (6 1 mana removal spells is enough). What're you planning on doing with Knight? Knight's best when it can fetch for things that it can change the game state. I saw the Wasteland but there are other options as well (Stronghold, Horizon Canopy, Man-Lands...), and option's are never a bad thing.

I would suggest a manabase (without the knight addition and all 4 of your Wastelands) like this:

3 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
3 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp

With Knight:

3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Maze of Ith
2 Wasteland
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Forest

MrShine

03-08-2010, 06:23 PM

Arne

03-09-2010, 02:29 AM

@Arne

I'm playing a control list myself at the moment; I would strongly recommend adding Pernicious Deed or Damnation, I've been getting good results with them both, Damnation especially so.

Also, I would think about a split between Vindicate/Maelstrom Pulse, as Iona on white will completely cripple you.

I actually like 3 Witness, they smooth the deck out tremendously provided you can keep GG on the table; recurring spot removal is crazy good vs aggro. Also, with these guys in here it's almost a crime not to play Volrath's Stronghold. It was won me countless games as a must answer land in terms of inevitability.

My changes would be somewhere along the lines of:

-1-2 Vindicate / +1-2 Maelstrom Pulse
-2-4 Path to Exile, -1 Sensei's Divining Top / +0-2 Damnation, +0-3 Pernicious Deed
-1 Wasteland / +1 Volrath's Stronghold

Also, I have just started testing Elspeth and have been getting good results so far; if unanswered it just controls the board (especially with wrath/deed) and can pop a goyf over the top for lethal.From behind it makes this hard to kill deck even more hard to kill, stalling until we can find a creature or something to sweep with. What are your experiences so far? I've also just started testing KotR and he is good but just seems like another large beater at this point; if I had a Tabernacle for the side it might be a different story and I have yet to test him with Bojuka Bog but it just seems too slow vs dredge/reanimator (the two most worrisome graveyard decks IMO)

I'm also curious as to how Dark Confidant has been working for you.

4 Finks FTW!

MrShine

Thanks for your reply. About stronghold, I'm trying to trade/buy one, but they have been hard to come by. But when I do get my hands on one of them, it'll sure come in (swapping it for a wasteland of course). I've tested against a lot of aggro decks (gobbo, merfolk, zoo) and the sheer number of removal accompanied by witness/finks seems to give this deck a powerboost against those decks.

I've played deed and find it to be really slow. It is, however, a great card in combination with elspeth. maybe I'll add one or two... damnation also seems a bit clunky. I'm not a real fan of boardsweepers as you can see because they like to eat my critters as well.

Elspeth is a bomb. Drop it and keep it alive for one turn and you're basically in. When it lands, people tend to try and get rid of her as fast as possible. Many times people use multiple cards to deal with her so in that way, she's raw cardadvantage. Even when they do 2for1 or 3for1 her, she's done her job.

I don't know about m.pulse. I usually find it handy to vindicate a land. In that way, he seems more versatile because it allows me to manascrew my opponents even more. Because I play goyfs myself, I tend not to use it on my opponent's goyfs and the occassion where it could be 2for1 or more seems not extremely likely.

Knight of the reliquary is indeed a big creature and noting more. However, it opens the opportunity to create a landtoolbox. With the cards you named (tabernacle, bog) but also m. factory, nantuko monastery, maze of ith, etc. It gives the deck a lot more controloptions. It also searches for the one-off stronghold. I'm not sure what to cut for it but I'm thinking of -1 finks, -2 path to exile +3 KotR

Confidant is like Elspeth, they are the first to eat my opponent's removal so that my other creatures can push through. When it does stick, it wins the game. I've been hearing a couple of people say that they don't like it because it never sticks, but I find that to be a fallacy. If it sticks it wins.

And last but not least, Iona certainly can be a bitch. But my dredgematchup is terrible and the reanimator matchup can be won (Racing with a goyf, when the opponent casted a reanimate happens). I'm thinking of adding a few edicts to the board (chainer's edict looks good)

MrShine

03-09-2010, 11:09 AM

I'm also a big fan of playing the LD game with vindicate as well, but Iona is just really popular these days (in every survival and graveyard deck) that I really think it warrants including at least 1. Note that Vindicates can be recurred w/ witness should you want additional LD.

Damnation has actually been really good; they key is to not over extend and have at least 1 creature to drop afterwards. There is also synergy w/ Stronghold and Elspeth. It has saved my ass numerous times, even if it is a bit clunky and the BB in the casting cost can be a pain (but I choose it over wrath due to Iona).

Dredge isn't actually that bad, as long as we get a little luck on our side; basically, it requires having a swords and a deed in the opener G1 (deed isn't as slow here because we can crack it for 0), and w/ graveyard hate it IS doable... like you said racing w/ goyf is always a possibility. That being said, I would guesstimate the match at about 40-60 including G2 & 3, although my experience could be skewed because I seem to have gotten pretty lucky vs dredge in general. What I'm saying really is that we actually have alot of outs (damnation is good here too, btw) and it just depends on a little luck. Now ANT on the other hand...

If i were choosing an Edict I would definitely choose Diabloic Edict; Instants are just better vs decks like reanimator that pack counters

Arne

03-11-2010, 11:45 AM

Well, when I check out ANT lists, they usually pack no red (burning wish) and they play a singleton Tendrils. Which means aggromullen to hide/seek should do the trick... Since it's an instant, you can react to spells like chant etc. And ANT, being less explosive and more consistent gives us time to cast it

MrShine

03-11-2010, 02:29 PM

Moczoc

03-11-2010, 04:25 PM

There are so many good creatures in the 3 mana slot. it is quite hard to decide between:

Kitchen Finks
Eternal Witness
Doran
Knight of the Reliquary
..

Vampire Nighthawk
Troll Ascetic

Personally, I am playing 3 Doran, 3 Finks and 2 Witness.

Arne

03-12-2010, 06:14 AM

Sorry, but is this a mis-post from another thread? I don't think ANT has come up for a while

I am sorry... should've quoted a statement you did

Now ANT on the other hand...

That's where my post reacts to

There are so many good creatures in the 3 mana slot. it is quite hard to decide between:

Kitchen Finks
Eternal Witness
Doran
Knight of the Reliquary
..

Vampire Nighthawk
Troll Ascetic

Personally, I am playing 3 Doran, 3 Finks and 2 Witness.

I play 3 kitchen finks, 3 witness and 3 knight of the reliquary. They do the trick for me... When playing against a lot of zoo, goblins and merfolk, you should consider 4 finks and a couple of witness' They really shine in those matchups

Arsenal

03-18-2010, 05:35 PM

For those running the more aggro-based builds, especially those running 3-4 Doran, have you thought about Stoneforge Mystic? She becomes a 2/2 attacker with Doran out in play, and she's +CA (something this deck doesn't have a lot of unless you're running Hymn/Verdict). And most aggro-based builds I've seen run 1-3 pieces of equipment anyway, so she seems like a logical choice for consideration. The obvious problem is that the 2cc slot is pretty filled out already; Goyf, Confidant, Pridemage. I suppose moving the Pridemages to the board and maindecking the Mystic is the most obvious fix, but then we lose some utility and gain some +CA. Thoughts?

brianw712

03-18-2010, 06:09 PM

I played at the Jupiter Games event at Vestal, NY on March 13th, my first big Legacy event ever. 106 people, and I ended 37th, so nothing too special, but I was happy with my deck. Here was the list I played:

Lands (23):

2 Bayou
3 Scrubland
2 Savannah
3 Marsh Flats
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Plains
1 Forest
2 Swamp

Creatures (10):

3 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary

Disruption (12):

2 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Gerrard's Verdict

Removal(13):

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Diabolic Edict
2 Smallpox
3 Vindicate

Miscellanous (2):

2 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard (15):

3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Infest
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Choke
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt

Report:

Round 1: Burn

Game 1: I keep a hand that's decent for an unknown deck. Turn one thoughtseize reveals a hand full of burn cards, and I frown at the Dark Confidant and other Thoughtseize in my hand. Having only ten threats in my deck, of which three of them which I am unwilling to cast, meant that I drew no relevant threats and he burned me out.

Boarding: -3 Dark Confidant -2 Smallpox -2 Vindicate/Thoughtseize +3 Gaddock Teeg (it's a threat at least, and it stops fireblast and flame javelin) +1 Chalice of the Void +1 Ethersworn Canonist +2 Enlightened Tutor (something like this, I don't quite remember)

Game 2: I mull to 6, he keeps his initial seven. I turn one Thoughtseize him, revealing Fireblast, Flame Javelin, and five lands. I take the fireblast. He goes Mountain go. I Gerrard's Verdict him, he discards land and flame javelin. I overrun him with 2 Knight of the Reliquarys and 2 Tarmogoyfs.

Game 3: We both keep our initial seven. I don't remember much about this game, but I know I played around Price of Progress (after Thoughtseize/Duressing him and seeing two PoP). He makes a really bad play at one point by Lightning Bolting my 2/2 un-summoning-sick Knight of the Reliquary, which proceeds to sac a dual, get a fetchland, and get a basic. The Knight survives. Eventually, I remember that I'm at five and he's at 19, and I have a 4/4 or 5/5 Knight out, he just has a Price of Progress in his hand, I only have one dual in play. So things are not looking good for me. I rip a Chalice for one, and realize stupidly that it just nullified the swords in my hand. Apparently it was the right play, though, because the only thing he drew while my Knight beat him down for four turns was lands, a Keldon Marauders (which got Diabolic Edicted), and a Chain Lightning that he couldn't cast. He dies after 5 turns of drawing nothing of relevance.

1-0

Round 2: CounterTop Bant

I'm playing Matt McNally, whom I realize afterwards is the highest rated Legacy player in New York, and also won the last Vestal tournament.

Game 1:

I'm on the play. I turn one Thoughtseize/Duress and take something that I don't remember. He goes turn one Noble Hierarch. I Smallpox, which gets Dazed. A few turns later I play a Knight of the Reliquary, who I thought was 3/3. He attacks with his 5/6 Tarmogoyf, thanks to double Noble Hierarch, into it. I block, tap and sac a land, get a Wasteland, waste my own land, and block with what I think is a 6/6 Knight. Apparently I went overboard and didn't need to Waste my own land since my Knight is actually 7/7, so it must've been a 4/4 before. Oh well, he still loses his Goyf. He's at like 28 because of Rhox War Monks, while I'm at 11 from previous exalted beats. So now the board state is as follows: I have a huge Knight (12/12 or so), and a 4/5 Goyf, while he has a Rhox War Monk, two Noble Hierarchs, and a Counterbalance without a Top. I stupidly decide to slowplay it by just attacking with Goyf for a couple of turns, leaving Knight behind to block. He's drawing nothing but lands and Dazes so I beat him down to 14 with Goyf. On my turn, I attack with both, he blocks the Knight with a Noble Hierarch, he takes the Goyf beats and goes to 10. I play a Goyf during my second main, blind Counterbalance flip reveals Natural Order. F. And to make it worse, I had played Dark Confidant a few turns earlier, causing me to go from 11 to 9. If I hadn't played the Confidant, or if I had been more aggressive with attacking with the Knight, I would have survived one Progenitus attack and probably win this game. I die shortly afterwards to Progenitus.

Boarding: None as far as I can remember, maybe I brought in Choke and Deed.

Game 2:

We both mull to five, and eventually my initial discard gets us both in topdeck mode (well not really since we both have Tops out). He gets Counterbalance out, while my Top reveals that I have Confidant on top. I switch the Top for the Confidant, and play the Confidant, his Counterbalance reveals land or something, so my Confidant resolves. Unfortunately, that means I can't play my Top again. I'm getting huge card advantage from Confidant, who survives the whole game. However, he is getting huge card advantage from Counterbalance, rendering most of my draws pretty useless. He locks me out with CounterTop and beats me with Goyfs.

1-1

Round 3: Reanimator

Game 1: I Thoughtseize him, he Brainstorms in response and Dazes it. I put him on Reanimator, since my next Duress sees some Forces and an Echoing Truth. He turn three Thoughtseizes me, and I have nothing but two Confidants and some lands, so he takes a Confidant. I draw a Smallpox (=]) and play my other Confidant. End of turn he Mysticals for a Dark Ritual, then he goes Dark Rit, entomb, exhume, getting Empyrial Archangel. I Smallpox, he frowns, I win.

Sideboard: -3 Vindicate, -2 Gerrard's Verdict, +2 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Relic, +1 Tormod's Crypt, +1 Chalice of the Void.

Game 2: At the end of my turn one I E. Tutor for Chalice of the Void, intending to play it for 1 on my turn two. Only after I draw it do I realize that this is stupid because I know he plays Daze. I play Chalice, it gets Spell Pierced, oh well. Next turn, I draw Relic like a champ, and it resolves. He Thoughtseizes me the turn after, and sees a hand that's something like: Goyf, Edict, Edict, Smallpox, Swords, Confidant. He remarks that this will be an interesting game. He takes the Goyf, and attempts to Reanimate the Goyf. I tap and remove Goyf with Relic in response. He can do absolutely nothing about the three untargeted removals in my hand, as well as Relic, so he dies to Knight beats or something.

2-1

Round 4: Stax

I'm playing Anwar Ahmad, who apparently writes articles for Starcitygames or something.

Game 1:

My huge Knight of the Reliquary crushes through Ghostly Prison twice, he dies. Of note, though, I find out that he's playing Pitfall Trap, which actually seems like a very good choice for Stax, since it's basically a Swords that gets around Chalice for one.

Boarding: -4 Swords to Plowshares, -2 Smallpox, +3 Gaddock Teeg, +2 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Pernicious Deed

Game 2:

I keep a hand with Thoughtseize, Top, and five lands, thinking I should be fine as long as he doesn't go turn one Chalice. He goes turn one Chalice. Frown. I draw Gaddock Teeg, and play him next turn. He apparently can't do a damn thing about it. He tries to play Engineered Explosives for two but I inform him that he can't because it has X in its cost. He has Crucible + Wasteland going, as well as Crucible + Horizon Canopy to draw cards every turn. He also has a Karakas in his graveyard, which apparently he doesn't know he can use to bounce my Teeg, but I don't say anything, so I happily beat him down from 20 to 6 with just Teeg. All the while, my hand is filling up with CC 1s. He eventually finds Magus of the Tabernacle, and then Baneslayer, and I concede because I have no lands.

Boarding: -1 Swords to Plowshares, +1 Relic

Game 3:

I keep a hand with double Windswept Heath, Hymn to Tourach, a Teeg, and some other stuff. On the second turn, I make a really bad decision. I drew another Hymn to Tourach, so I decide to use my two Windswept Heaths to get Bayou and Scrubland in order to Hymn him instead of fetching basics and playing Teeg. I fail to hit Crucible with my first Hymn. He Wastes my Bayou, so I can't Hymn him next turn. I do have Savannah though, so I can play Teeg. He then plays Crucible. F. Wastelock just destroys me. Notably, this game he does remember that he can bounce Teeg with Karakas, and announces it dramatically when he does bounce Teeg. I lose to Wastelock.

2-2

Round 5: UWR Landstill

Game 1: I Thoughtseize/Duress him first turn, he Brainstorms in response, I take a Swords. He plays Standstill next turn. I break it with Goyf. He Oks Goyf. I eventually play a bunch of Knights and Goyfs and apparently he can't find any removal for any of them. I beat him down to one with Goyf, and kill him with Smallpox, heh.

Boarding: -4 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Diabolic Edict, -2 Smallpox +3 Gaddock Teeg, +2 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Choke, +1 Pernicious Deed

Game 2: We both keep sketchy one land hands. He goes Factory, Relic, pass. I go turn one Thoughtseize, seeing he has no other lands and so I take his Top. He goes another Relic, pass. I don't draw my second land so I just play my Top, which gets Forced. He draws Dust Bowl (still no colored mana, ha) and attacks me for Factory some. I draw my second land and play Confidant, which he can't answer. I play Teeg, Knight, Choke, and some Goyfs, all of which he can't answer. However, he does have Crucible, so that combined with Dust Bowl is able to free up his blue sources. While I beat him down, I go down really low from Confidant flips. On my final turn, I have lethal on my board, but I'm at three from Confidants. I hoped he boarded out Lightning Bolts since he didn't see any creatures with toughness less than 3 game one (it turns out that he did). On my last flip, I flip Gerrard's Verdict, so I win with one life remaining.

3-2

Round 6: UBR Painter + CounterTop

Game 1: I feel in total control of the game as I have a Goyf and two Knights that are unanswered. He plays a Trinket Mage and grabs Meekstone. F. I can't do enough damage or find a Vindicate before he PainterStones me.

Boarding: Don't really remember, but it was dumb because I boarded out some removal, which probably should have stayed in because I knew he plays Painter and Confidant. I do remember that I brought in Chalice.

Game 2: Sometime during this game I play Chalice for one. It resolves, he frowns. He plays Engineered Explosives, paying 2 for X but only with one color, setting it at one counter, which really confuses me since I play no permanents that are CC 1 in my deck other than Top. Eventually he tries to blow up Chalice with EE, but I tell him that Chalice has CC 0 when its in play, so EE at 1 does nothing. He concedes because he can't win against Chalice at 1.

Game 3: He gets Painter, which I don't have removal for. I try to lure out his Red Blasts with Thoughtseize and Goyf and stuff, which works. He has Counterbalance in play though. I go EOT Enlightened Tutor, he doesn't remember the Counterbalance trigger, so E Tutor resolves. I go get Chalice and next turn I play it for one. Blind Counterbalance flip reveals...Dark Confidant! Damnit! In a few turns he goes Trinket Mage for Grindstone, and kills me. If only he had remembered the Counterbalance trigger, I could have waited one turn to play Chalice at one and would have had a much higher chance of winning that game.

3-3

Round 7: UBG Homebrew with Trinket Mage, Tombstalker, Tarmogoyf, Deed

His deck is incredibly similar to mine in play style. He tells me before we start playing that if he wins it'll take forever, so I guess Landstill, he says no, but it plays kind of like Landstill. He also remarks that he really wishes I were playing Reanimator. So I rack my brains for a deck that he might be playing, but I can't really think of one.

Game 1:

Turn one Thoughtseize reveals Chalice, EE, Tombstalker, and some other stuff. So I'm really confused at what he's playing. I take Chalice. The entire game is basically one for ones. One turn, notably, he trinket mages for Top, but doesn't use crack his fetchland to play Top. I thought that was the wrong play by him, because I just Duress it away. The whole game is basically one for ones. However, eventually I get Confidant to stick. I'm losing more life than he is with Confidant, and he's not using Deed because he wants me to die to my own Confidant. I've had Smallpox in my hand for forever, but I'm waiting for him to play a threat, which he doesn't. So once I go down to two or three life, I play Smallpox, which 4 for 1s myself since he doesn't have a creature in play or a card in hand. Basically, we both play infinite removal for each other's threats, but eventually I get double Knight of the Reliquary and kill him, since all of his threats are smaller than Knight. At the end of the game we both have about 10 cards left in our libraries.

Boarding: -2 Smallpox, -2 Edict, +2 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Choke, +1 Pernicious Deed (I dont' actually know why I brought in Deed).

Game 2:

Same thing, one for ones until the board state looks like this: He has Pernicious Deed, Trinket Mage, and Top, and I have Pernicious Deed and Top. I Jedi mind trick him into thinking that there's a way I can save my top when I blow up my Deed. When I crack my Deed for three, he responds by activating his Top. I respond by activating my Top. He responds by cracking his Deed...for 0. He's just having fun, I guess he didn't realize that he could kill my Top by cracking Deed for 1 in response to my activation. Eventually I find Choke, Vindicate his non-blue lands and his Deeds, and he can't find Maelstrom Pulse for it, so I beat him down with Goyfs and Knights.

4-3

The deck played just fine, but there were some issues. Infests in the board were crap, since I didn't play any Goblins or Merfolk. In hindsight they would have been so much better as Krosan Grips, which would have been useful in every single match I lost. Secondly, Edicts and Smallpoxes were only mediocre, Iona never came into play against me, and I never got to kill a Progenitus with them. On the positive side, they did probably single-handedly win me the Reanimator match. If I were to play this deck again, I would probably go -2 Smallpox -1 Diabolic Edict +3 EE, -3 Infest from the board +1 E Tutor and 2 more tutor targets.