[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

[Bahamuth]

I just have to bring it up again. I have done some testing with a list close to what most people are playing, but one that cut Breakthrough for Brainstorm. I have yet to encounter a situation where I needed a discard outlet, had a Brainstorm and that Brainstorm didn't give me what I needed. Brainstorm is clearly better at finding answers, and it allows you to keep a hand, which is quite good, considering you have multiple cards that you can cast (especially answers to hate).

[jimirynk]

@ Joe C.
I really hope your secret tech vs. merfolk isn't Llawan, Cephalid Empress..


Btw my board looks like this right now
4 wispmare
4 pithing needle
2 null rod
3 chain of vapor
1 ray of revelation
1 inkwell

needles just help use vs more of the tier decks right now, If I expect a lot of ee,crypt,relic split decks I'm going to change it to 3-3.

[Joe_C]

@ Joe C.
I really hope your secret tech vs. merfolk isn't Llawan, Cephalid Empress..




and if it is? :wink:

[jimirynk]

If you fought the uphill battle to DR something and it resolves why not just bring back inkwell or archangel?

Plus folk would side out stifle and most list side in diverts.. change your DR to a narco? fml..
how I board is like.
-3 breakthrough
-1 DR
-1 sage
-1fkz

+1 inkwell
+4 pithing needle
+1 ray of revelation

I always end up siding breakthroughs out games 2 and 3 this is why I cut a BT for a 4th thug, it ups the chance of having a dredger in a hand with hate in it.

@ Joe c is the 4 firestorm in the board needed?
you don't even side them in vs there best match up.
I think you should cut 2 of them for 2 more wispmare.
After playtesting vs. leyline hate games can get pretty hard..
Considering decks that run leyline run hand/land disruption.

But idk still yet to test firestorm.

Also I'm probably going to switch the sage back to a lark to continue testing him.
He helps every other tribal matchup don't see why it wouldn't help the folk game1.

[jimirynk]

If you dredge 3 times with brainstorm do you have to put anything back?


If you have trouble with aggro, isn't something like Empyrial Archangel or Blazing Archon a better DR target?

I already explained why I don't really like archangel yet it needs a little more testing.
Blazing archon might be cool but folk runs bounce..

[Joe_C]

If you dredge 3 times with brainstorm do you have to put anything back?



if you have cards left in your hand, yes....

I am thinking of dropping the firestorm count down to maybe toss in 2 needles. Needle is very useful across the format, so my sb may be:

4 Null Rod
3 Firestorm
2 Pithing Needle
3 Wispmare
2 Chain of Vapor
1 ???????

[hwtcharger07]

jimirynk: what are you doing with lark

how does it work to improve match ups?
what are you using it for?

[Bahamuth]

The reveillark seems suboptimal to me too.

Could someone explain why Firestorm is good? Against what do we bring it in?

What about Null Rod? Against how many decks won't you actually be able to guess which of the two they bring in? If Relic doesn't hurt them, they will play it. If it does, they play Crypt.

[Raptor]

The reveillark seems suboptimal to me too.

Could someone explain why Firestorm is good? Against what do we bring it in?

What about Null Rod? Against how many decks won't you actually be able to guess which of the two they bring in? If Relic doesn't hurt them, they will play it. If it does, they play Crypt.

Firestorm is good because it is a discard outlet that can't be countered. Also, it's pretty good against some aggro match up such as goblins and it helps you start your dredge engine.

Some decks are starting to do some 2/2 split on crypt and relic. Also, sometimes, some people don't always have relic in side, even if it doesn't hurt them and they have crypt. You can't never be 100% sure. Also, it stops some bothering things such as Explosives, ravager, and top to a lesser extent.

[Bahamuth]

Firestorm is good because it is a discard outlet that can't be countered. Also, it's pretty good against some aggro match up such as goblins and it helps you start your dredge engine.

Some decks are starting to do some 2/2 split on crypt and relic. Also, sometimes, some people don't always have relic in side, even if it doesn't hurt them and they have crypt. You can't never be 100% sure. Also, it stops some bothering things such as Explosives, ravager, and top to a lesser extent.

But still, this deck has trouble getting to 2 land. And Rod is hit by Snare and Daze much easier. I doubt it's worth that.

You actually board in Firestorm vs aggro-control?

[bum_man]

Null rod is a one piece handle everything card. It handles all that needles are usually used for and then some. Its arguably better than needles in terms of what it can do. The problem with it is its easily counterable compared to needles which are somewhat easier to play around counters. Its also a turn slower, this can in turn make your goldfish slower as well. It all comes down to the metagame. If your meta has diverse hate cards (crypt, relic, EE, jitte, etc) and they are alot of affinity, vials, moxen, etc. null rod is relatively better. When relic and crypt are the only common hate cards needles are the better choice imo. Its just a matter of playing needle correctly, never name needle blindly, assuming what your opponent has is one of the more reckless plays with needle.

I haven't tested firestorm yet. I don't think its that good because it forces to discard, this is something that non-led dredge is designed not to do. You can easily outrace aggro decks anyway. The only match-up where i see it being fairly good are against merfolks and decks that run hate bears like teeg, jailer, meddling mage, etc.

Reveillark isn't suboptimal per se. It's good in certain match-ups just as sage is good in certain match-ups. Both are optimal in very different ways mainly because both require very different ways to play the deck. Reveiilark imo is better against blue where usually don't win thourgh the zombie hoard but rather through slow and consistent beats. Sage is better against decks you have to race because it wins faster in a fragile yet more explosive manner. You should play what you think works better where you play. Sage is just the preferred among the two because more often than not you'd have to race your opponent. I prefer sage because i really prefer winning through a race. The man plan for me is just the plan B for the deck. The reveillark for me is a slower clock although more steady.

@jimirynk: how big does the GGTs usually get with you most of the time? The deck doesn't dredge as much without the sage. The biggest ive had them in testing are 11/11 along with 3 zombie tokens and FKZ. I was still able to win later but the win was delayed by 2 turns due to my opponent being able to block the GGT.

[jimirynk]

jimirynk: what are you doing with lark

how does it work to improve match ups?
what are you using it for?

Games were your opponent go first turn curse catcher or mogg fanatic can be problematic for this deck. The odds of you getting more then 1 or 2 tokens verse these decks are very low. Lark gives you a lethal swing out of no where even when all of your bridges are gone.



@jimirynk: how big does the GGTs usually get with you most of the time? The deck doesn't dredge as much without the sage. The biggest ive had them in testing are 11/11 along with 3 zombie tokens and FKZ. I was still able to win later but the win was delayed by 2 turns due to my opponent being able to block the GGT.

GGTs on average is a 11/11.lol
I think sage and lark have equal strengths and weakness's.
Lark is better in a meta that removes bridges game one.
sage is only in my md right now over lark because g1 vs merfolk if a relic comes down turn 1 or two you sometimes have to exploded asap.

I'm going to start testing kelpi in this shell.
I think river kelpi is good in list with 4 therapy's and 3 DRs.

You don't have to go all out with it through hate.

Sage is good when you need to get things out of your hand when going off which is better in the led list do to the lack of discard outlets, but with all are discard outlets river kelpi is going into my deck for testing right now.lol

I used to play kelpi over sage in my led list because of all the tribal, kelpi gets you more tokens when low on brides.

EDIT:I average 4 dredges off a kelpi so right now it will become my DR target.

[keys]

GGT doesn't have any evasion... any smart player is just going to leave a body behind to chump. I still don't get why lark is better than Empyrial Archangel.

[Joe_C]

3 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

1 Darkblast
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
1 Firestorm
2 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return

Board:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Devastating Dreams
1 Platinum Angel

This took 2nd at a small tourney in Germany... Interesting take... Thoughts?

[jimirynk]

GGT doesn't have any evasion... any smart player is just going to leave a body behind to chump. I still don't get why lark is better than Empyrial Archangel.

A smart players going to predict me swing for lethal due to lark after all my bfbs are rfged?:wink:
You my friend sound like an idiot.

[jimirynk]

3 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

1 Darkblast
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
1 Firestorm
2 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return

Board:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Devastating Dreams
1 Platinum Angel

This took 2nd at a small tourney in Germany... Interesting take... Thoughts?

Lol I love the paradises to play DD easier you win sirr.:laugh:
I've never had a hard time with the aggro match up but I think DD is greater than firestorm vs all but folk.
Even tho he runs one main??
I run the same amount of dredgers but -1 darkblast +1 thug, I like the number maybe I'll try the dark blast it keeps my dredgers the same but ups my discard outlet for a dredger.
Platinum angel is cool but no evasion.
But I guess certain decks can't answer it and they side out kgrips hmmmm.
He cuts a coliseum and a breakthrough from what I play, I don't like that but I think the -1 coliseum comes from the need to make RR for DD.
Breakthrough has become my least favorite card in this deck, but if i brought it down to two I would want something besides a firestorm taking its place.

[keys]

A smart players going to predict me swing for lethal due to lark after all my bfbs are rfged?:wink:
You my friend sound like an idiot.

i am neither, and yes i will chump your lethal ggt, or i will stifle it, or i will bounce it, or i will [insert targeted removal here] it...

[jimirynk]

i am neither, and yes i will chump your lethal ggt, or i will stifle it, or i will bounce it, or i will [insert targeted removal here] it...

well one I said lark helps you with no bfb, have fun chump blocking trolls, I'll win the turn after after I killed 2 of your goyfs bounce one they're still a fatty on the board.
Plus GGT regenerates.. but its w.e. if you don't like lark don't play it.
If you don't bring useful information to the thread trying to progress this deck don't post.:eek:

[keys]

Defensive much? I just mentioned three ways to stop ggt which archangel gets around..

[jimirynk]

@ Keys.
I feel that Archangel is a random fatty to put into dredge were lark has synergy that can help you "combo" your way to win in a tight situation.
I kind of wanted to fit an archangel in my md for a while but it was never a greater dr target then sage or lark.

How I decide my DR target is turn a card around and when going to DR it in ever match up write down what it is.
Then what ever has the most for game 1s put it in the main.

Repeat for games 2 and 3 and if the card changes I put the new card in my board.

Sry I got defensive I've been play testing for too long this weekend I'm kinda on the fritz.

I do like archangel,but I like random fatties in the board for when they're needed.

[bum_man]

@jimirynk: liked i said before i play darkblasts in the thug spot to take care of those weenies, its a good card against those, if you're open to the idea give it a try.
How was kelpie been for you? I tested them a while back, its great when its great but there are times that it just sits around because of a bad dredge without therapies or a return.^^ Its just my luck but it does happen. Sage for me is better because it wins alone unlike kelpie. In testing you can see that sage wins more games, hopefully ^^

@Joe_C: How are the random firestorm and darkblast? Have they been effective despite being only 1 ofs?

I assume angel is for combo?

How about devastating dreams? killing your lands seems awful.

Don't you find 3 paradises slows you down alot, the timewalk is terrible. I assume you play against alot of blue where the timewalk isn't much of a factor, am i correct?

@kevs: archangel is a good card. angel and inkwell are the two best beaters with regards to being a DR target imo. Winning through a random fattie ftw isn't the most efficient strategy with the deck. It is relatively slow compared to a hoard of zombies or ichorids. The thing with lark over angel is when they answer lark it has a built in plan B which the opponent has to answer too. Angel is built to race but with two 4/5 goyfs damage redirected to it, killing it, the race doesn't seem too fair now is it. Angel is great versus burn. In other match-ups theres a chance to randomly die. I think if you want a fattie ftw inkwell is better. more often than not, you'd use fatties versus blue where other decks you can just combo-off, its a 3 turn clock against blue ^^ Sorry about straying off-topic, what i wanted to say is angel and lark are both good in their own respects and both are bad when worse comes to worse.

Question related to angel: when direct damage is dealt to angel will it redirect to you? ive read somewhere that redirection works both ways i think. Is this correct?

[Joe_C]

@Joe_C: How are the random firestorm and darkblast? Have they been effective despite being only 1 ofs?

I assume angel is for combo?

How about devastating dreams? killing your lands seems awful.

Don't you find 3 paradises slows you down alot, the timewalk is terrible. I assume you play against alot of blue where the timewalk isn't much of a factor, am i correct?



Bum_man: I am not playing this list, as you will see at the bottom of my post there, it was played by someone in germany and it took 2nd at a small tourney. I just wanted to toss it here in the forum since it had some odd card choices.

[bum_man]

OH! i thought this looked familiar. :)) sorry my bad. I just speed-read all the posts @_@ The list looks interesting though, very techy. Whats your take on it? especially having darkblast as the dredgers in addition to thugs, if i remember correctly that was when you ran 14-15ish dredgers. You changed it a few posts later. It wasn't that consistent, no? @@

[Joe_C]

OH! i thought this looked familiar. :)) sorry my bad. I just speed-read all the posts @_@ The list looks interesting though, very techy. Whats your take on it? especially having darkblast as the dredgers in addition to thugs, if i remember correctly that was when you ran 14-15ish dredgers. You changed it a few posts later. It wasn't that consistent, no? @@

Im still trying to play around with the numbers on a few cards. Im currently running 12 dregders (4 of all the dredge creatures), I would like to bump it back up to 14, but I need to find room for it. I may drop down to 2 breakthrough again to go for a more "grind it out" approach to the deck. Taking wins off of ichorid beats and not focusing on trying to turn 2-3 combo

[1maarten1]

3 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

1 Darkblast
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
1 Firestorm
2 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return

Board:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Devastating Dreams
1 Platinum Angel

This took 2nd at a small tourney in Germany... Interesting take... Thoughts?

The DD seems ok with the ammount of paradises he runs, but i would go with firestorms and 2 t.citadels.

~Maarten

[Joe_C]

In the german list it would seem the singleton darkblast would be way better suited as thug #4. Since he is only running 2 breakthrough, the deck is going to be slower and more reliant on ichorid recursion to win......

[jimirynk]

In the german list it would seem the singleton darkblast would be way better suited as thug #4. Since he is only running 2 breakthrough, the deck is going to be slower and more reliant on ichorid recursion to win......

@ Joe C.
It looks like that on paper but he is running the same amount of black creatures as us do to the 4th icorid.

Also blast can still help with speed, back when I ran dark blast I used to use it to nuke my own tribes eot when I had 3-4 bridges.

I also like it because Its one card that tilts the mirror towards you.
I think I'm goiing to test it out due to the fact that I run 3 ichorids.

On another note he has 2 grudges in his board and I was thinking if this was a really smart approach.
I mean you win game one your oppents on the play they go first turn relic/crypt. You go first turn study discard grudge land pass they die a little on the inside.
Just I'm going to try to find room.

I also have a card in my board that I'm not sharing for the 30th.=P
Take that joe C.

[jimirynk]

Updated list:

2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Ichorid(Might test 4 with all stp running around in gwu thresh)
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Cephalid Sage(I'm testing with a backwards card..)
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

1 Darkblast(testing)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough(been testing 3, always end up siding out games 2/3)
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return(might cut one if not running lark)

Board:

4 Pithing Needle/null rod (meta game choice)
4 Wispmare
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of revelation
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 SECRET TECH:tongue:

[bum_man]

I wouldn't say the configuration is slower but the combo isn't as consistent as it can be compared to the more solid man plan. the -1 coliseum, -1 return, -1 sage emphasizes on this although the gas of the 4th coliseum is needed especially without the 3rd breakthrough. The random darkblast is.. well... random i'd probably up that to 2 for a higher chance of getting it in the opening grip where its needed.

Grudge isn't actually that bad. I run 1 in the board just for ensnaring bridges and a random dreadnought kill. It saved me once by killing a relic on my 2nd turn (hardcast ^^). I'd rather play a grudge md over the firestorm especially with all the merfolk running around. ugh.

Ive been testing out sage along with a lark proxy and they seem to be working out well, they show-up when needed.. so far.. i'll do more testing. I feel wee bit of a tendency to over-play with both of them in harness. @jimirynk have you tried this configuration before?

[1maarten1]

Hi, im going to a 40-man tournament next week and this is the deck im taking with me. It will be the first tournament with this deck so im not expecting too much of it. I'll post a small report how it went, but im not making any notes so dont think it will be 2 pages long :tongue:

This is the list i will be running:
1#Cephalid Sage
3#Dread Return
4#Careful Study
2#Tarnished Citadel
1#Flame-Kin Zealot
1#Darkblast
4#City of Brass
4#Cephalid Coliseum
4#Bridge from Below
3#Tireless Tribe
4#Putrid Imp
4#Cabal Therapy
4#Golgari Grave-Troll
4#Stinkweed Imp
3#Golgari Thug
4#Gemstone Mine
4#Narcomoeba
3#Breakthrough
3#Ichorid
// sideboard
4#Wispmare
3#Chain of Vapor
1#Empyrial Archangel
2#Ancient Grudge
1#Ray of Revelation
4#Pithing Needle

~Maarten

[jimirynk]

Ive been testing out sage along with a lark proxy and they seem to be working out well, they show-up when needed.. so far.. i'll do more testing. I feel wee bit of a tendency to over-play with both of them in harness. @jimirynk have you tried this configuration before?

Yes I have, but what I keep seeing happening is I win with out DR any target through tokens/ichorids.
If there is a sag in the yard its either win more or I was going to win the next turn anyway and its not like I fear any grave hate game one.
Lark in the other hand can help you with know bridges etc....
But the thing about lark is that its DR heavy the more dr you have in the yard with it around the crazier the plays get.
But running a sage brings some of the most dumb nuts plays anyone in your meta will ever witness Sac lark to therapy bring back what ever and sage....
But it might just be winmore..
I'd like to hear how its been testing for you tho.

[jimirynk]

Hi, im going to a 40-man tournament next week and this is the deck im taking with me. It will be the first tournament with this deck so im not expecting too much of it. I'll post a small report how it went, but im not making any notes so dont think it will be 2 pages long :tongue:

This is the list i will be running:
1#Cephalid Sage
3#Dread Return
4#Careful Study
2#Tarnished Citadel
1#Flame-Kin Zealot
1#Darkblast
4#City of Brass
4#Cephalid Coliseum
4#Bridge from Below
3#Tireless Tribe
4#Putrid Imp
4#Cabal Therapy
4#Golgari Grave-Troll
4#Stinkweed Imp
3#Golgari Thug
4#Gemstone Mine
4#Narcomoeba
3#Breakthrough
3#Ichorid
// sideboard
4#Wispmare
3#Chain of Vapor
1#Empyrial Archangel
2#Ancient Grudge
1#Ray of Revelation
4#Pithing Needle

~Maarten

I like the MD a lot.:tongue:
Intrested on how it does good luck sir!

[bum_man]

I haven't done extensive testing, about 40 hands so far. From what I've been testing i've observed a couple of things:

:. When I have DR online i always have a choice of taking back sage, lark or FKZ.
:. I often DR Sage first because either damage isn't lethal now or DR or therapy isn't online to kill lark.
:. Winning using both is kind of show-boating/over-playing already ^^
:. Lark is working exactly as you said without bridges and what not.
:. There are times where I could've already won had it been sage, but is superior in gold-fishing making this observation irrelevant, just a mention. :D

Usually when I get one in the yard, its almost an auto-win. It opens the deck up to more flexibility in terms of play style; And I'm really lovin this. Again, I'm nut for FKZ and winning now because one more turn for them means one more opportunity to stop us. So far getting familiar with the motions of using Reveillark. Once I get a real one I'll try it in real-time to see if it can work well in non-LED lists. I've always had the impression that LED lists can best utilize lark because it dredges more faster making lark more lethal. I'll be testing more tommorrow and hopefully in a few days I can test it against most of my metagame.

OT: how is darkblast so far, does one feel like the right number?

[diffy]

This (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=344942&postcount=780) took 2nd at a small tourney in Germany... Interesting take... Thoughts?

That was me playin'.

I played against:
(2:1) Ugb CounterTop
(0:2) RGW Goyf Sligh (no Bridges, no Ichorids - not going to win this!)
(2:1) Ugb Control
(2:0) Team America

The card choices in the sideboard were motivated entirely by card-availability: the Platinum Angel should actually be an Ancestor's Chosen and the Devastating Dreams should actually be Firestorms. Other than that, the Sideboard was solid - especially the flashback spells are incredibly good in a land-heavy version of Ichorid. I'd play 3 Ancient Grudges in the future (over 1 Firestorm, which will be moved to the main).

The maindeck, on the other hand, was much to my gusto (and got tested quite thoroughly before the tournament):
I reduced the amount of Breakthroughs because playing Breakthrough against anything (especially postboard) really is like putting your balls onto the table and then asking: "You don't happen to have a hammer, good Sir, do you?" - I just don't like going all-in getting my balls crushed, especially since you have little to no ways to come back from such an all-in move castration: if your opponent happens to have the hate-piece hammer post-Breakthrough, you're pretty much finished. I reckon it is still an okay card because it acts double-duty preboard (enabler + discard outlet), however, Careful Study is pretty much always better, especially since you don't need the added brokenness: you are still going to win 90% of the time preboard, even if you have to slow-dredge, and postboard you don't want to go all-in like ever (that's also why I boarded out Breakthrough quite frequently).
Forgotten Paradise is just so much better than all the other rainbow lands out there you could play in addition to City of Brass and Gemstone Mine: not only does it work great in conjunction with the slow-dredge plan but also is its drawback only very, very rarely relevant: you aren't casting many spells anyway and most of those cost 1-2 mana which means that Paradise + any other land can always cast whatever you want. Tarnished Citadel just doesn't compare to it on any level because if someone isn't completely blown away (i.e. your opponent by your brokenness or you by your opponent's brokenness [i.e. hate]) it often comes down to a race where taking three damage is just plain and simply unacceptable.
One Firestorm got played to keep the proportion of discard outlets after cutting down on Breakthrough. Also, the card is just that good and I would have played more main if I had gotten them in time because it greatly improves your gameplan when your opponent is doing it right (i.e. you don't dredge Bridges, Ichorids or Dread Returns).
Only 3 Coliseums were played for colour-issues (screw those Tireless Tribes for not being blue!). Also, see above: you don't need the broken that much.
One Darkblast got played because it is pretty good against half of the hate out there (Mogg Fanatic & Co), to have more 'discard outlets' (i.e. Darkblast can send himself to the graveyard, allowing you to dredge for 3 each turn if really everything else fails) and to save some space in the sideboard. Two'd be better, but I couldn't find the space for another one.

The good thing about the list is that it counterbalances Ichorid's natural inconsistency to a great extent: in all but the very last round I had to work on a minimal amount of Bridges (i.e. 0-5 Zombie tokens per game) due to bad dredges+hate - and still managed to win, something that, in those situations, wasn't very common with previous lists. Also, you don't fold to hate as easily with this version while keeping up your matchup percentages against aggressive decks thanks to Firestorm.

[hwtcharger07]

I don't understand why everyone insists on running only one sage, especialy if you are running 3 DRs (same applies for whatever dredge enable you are running be it kelpie or the lark that suddenly doesn't seem so terrible). as nice as it is to DR for a few zombie tokens you want to be able to win shortly after the DR. most f the time we DR (assuming we have 3 MD) when we have 20-25 card in our gy and hand combined. so you have less than a 1 in 2 chance of having your sage (kelpie or lark) in your GY, so half the time you wont win right off of your DR.
if you up the sage (kelpie or Lark) count to two you will usualy have one plus DR in the yard by the time you have 20-25 cards in the GY or hand which is possible by turn two or there. If this happens you will usualy win the game in a quick manner (within the next turn or two, even with lark recurring 2 GGTs). because of this it seems sub optimal to run less than 2 DR targets and 3 DR. I understand how tight this list is and how everyone wants as many dredgers as possible, but i feel the DR package is just as important if not more so than the 14 dredgers.

hell i could even see people running the 1-1 sage lark split that jimirynk is testing over just one of either.

@ Der_imaginäre_Freund
congrats on the 2nd place your list and explanations were a good short read, because of yur explanations i think i will switch from tarnished citadels to undiscovered paridise. I also appreciated your thoughts on breakthrough, it seems other people running this deck share your thoughts, honestly whenever i had breakthrough in hand i always would rather have careful study.

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 undiscovered paridise

3 Ichorid
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
2 Cephalid Sage
3 Breakthrough
2 Tireless Tribe
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

SB:
2 Darkblast
4 Firestorm
3 Wispmare
4 Chain of Vapor
1 platinum angel
1 reveillark

SB explanation:
my meta (from what i heard) contains a large amount of GY utilizing builds ie other ichorid builds and garbage reanimators, tribal (elves and goblins), combo (tendrils, don't know if its ANT though), and countertop dreadstill. I hear it is a pretty fast meta. because of this i know there is some GY hate running around to deal with this SB 4CoV 3 Wispmare, plat angel is to win game two when artifact hate has not been sided in, reveillark is for gobs and folk matchups (not elves though). 2 darkblast 4firestorm for all tribal MU especialy gobs and elves (though folk too).

MD thoughts:
Careful study > breakthrough (i am very seriously considering dumping the 3 breakthroughs for 3 streetwraiths, they are free, quick dredge enablers, feed ichorid (very important to have creatures to DR), also they pump GGT if you want to run reveillark post board, yeah im away from home but i will test this when i get back)

right now i think this list is pretty solid though i really want to test streetwraiths in place of breakthrough

[jimirynk]

you aren't casting many spells anyway and most of those cost 1-2 mana which means that Paradise + any other land can always cast whatever you want. Tarnished Citadel just doesn't compare to it on any level

I ran tarnish due to the 4 null rods in the board. I would rather take 3 turn 1 for a study and play any other land turn 2 to drop a null rod this becomes difficult with paradises.
But now that I'm not I'll try a 1/1 split.

You also have to remember that tarnish makes colorless for free.

[jimirynk]

I ran tarnish due to the 4 null rods in the board. I would rather take 3 turn 1 for a study and play any other land turn 2 to drop a null rod this becomes difficult with paradises.
But now that I'm not I'll try a 1/1 split.

You also have to remember that tarnish makes colorless for free.

Edit: After testing 20 matches with this deck the 7 games where I had tarnish in my hand would have always been better as a paradise, g2 its a little different were you want to go turn 1 imp turn 2 either cov/needle/wispmare and a study.:confused:

My mana base is now:
2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass

My side right now is:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Wispmare
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Inkwell Leviathan

I might cut a CoV for a additional DR target.

[bum_man]

@Der_imaginäre_Freund: the solitary darkblast wasn't able to help vs goysligh? Do you think making two would've possibly win that match-up for you? darkblast for me is one of the cards the deck has vs most match-ups it could possibly be better than the 3rd thug.

I'm not really sold on paradise because it timewalks you. It prevents you from getting more lands on the board which is terrible. I would atleast use one citadel because more often than not, in the mid-game where the deck usually wins, you tap it for colorless rather colored making the drawback very much irreleveant.

Doesn't the feel like at a loss of gas a few times because of the loss of 1 breakthrough and coliseum? This in terms of dredging to get cards in the yard apart from DDD.

Congratulations on placing second.^^ Your list looks good and its probably one of the more solid lists ive seen among non-led lists that are tuned to grind it out with the man plan over comboing out.

@hwtcharger07: Running 1 sage in a list that focuses more on the man plan isn't that much a sub-optimal. Sage in man plan focused lists only function has additional gas to get more business faster, arguably win-more in some sense. Do tell us your results on breakthrough vs wraiths. Although I think dumping breakthrough against the decks you have mentioned is bad since you have to race almost all of them. Wraith works better in man plan focused lists especially the ones running reveilark imo.

@jimirynk; Very interesting results. I'll take a crack at testing that too. ^^
Great sb list especially on the inkwell. We run relatively the same sb except the 4th wispmare and the 2nd grudge are CotV/Metagame slots aka anti-merfolk tech. I also dont have a 4th needle making another anti-merfolk slot :laugh:

[1maarten1]

Im running the same sb as you, but i due to not having a levi i run my archangel. Im also changing my citadels to paradises.

~Maarten

[claudio.r]

So last saturday i took my list to a another 3-1 finish, giving me third place and a couple of packs.

4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Empyrial Archangel
2 Golgari Thug
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Bridge Frome Below
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return
4 Careful Study
2 Darkblast

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City Of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

SB:
2 Crippling Fatigue
4 Duress
2 Wispmare
1 Ray Of Revelation
3 Echoing Truth
1 Chain Of Vapor
2 Ancient Grudge

The sideboard was still complete crap, as I dind't had time to make any changes.
The thing is, when people aren't prepared to face drege, it's very difficult to not win.
Only loss was on the first round against goblins, due to very rough hands and two mullingans to 5, also mogg fanatic and the goblin that sacrefices goblins to give mana were pretty effective at removing the bridges. Still won one game to the goblins player on the back of Empyrial Archangel.
The other 3 rounds were pretty standard:
2 - 1 against burn
2 - 0 against painter's combo
2 - 1 against counterslivers
It's a great deck when you're confortable with it, even without any relevant sideboard, but it can crap out in your hands sometimes ! The only thing is, next time, people will be prepared to face this, so i really don't know if it will be a good ideia play this the next time.
What do you guys think ?

[bum_man]

So last saturday i took my list to a another 3-1 finish, giving me third place and a couple of packs.

4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Empyrial Archangel
2 Golgari Thug
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Bridge Frome Below
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return
4 Careful Study
2 Darkblast

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City Of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

SB:
2 Crippling Fatigue
4 Duress
2 Wispmare
1 Ray Of Revelation
3 Echoing Truth
1 Chain Of Vapor
2 Ancient Grudge

The sideboard was still complete crap, as I dind't had time to make any changes.
The thing is, when people aren't prepared to face drege, it's very difficult to not win.
Only loss was on the first round against goblins, due to very rough hands and two mullingans to 5, also mogg fanatic and the goblin that sacrefices goblins to give mana were pretty effective at removing the bridges. Still won one game to the goblins player on the back of Empyrial Archangel.
The other 3 rounds were pretty standard:
2 - 1 against burn
2 - 0 against painter's combo
2 - 1 against counterslivers
It's a great deck when you're confortable with it, even without any relevant sideboard, but it can crap out in your hands sometimes ! The only thing is, next time, people will be prepared to face this, so i really don't know if it will be a good ideia play this the next time.
What do you guys think ?

The list looks great. The deck needs sage for more speed and stability. The 2 blasts didn't work out that well against the gobs??? what happened??? Over-all great list and congratulations on your good performance and strong finish ^^

[jimirynk]

Has anyone tested life of the loam as a dredger?
I mean the ability to return coliseum every turn to play seems pretty good.
I might start testing -3 breakthrough +2 life from the loam +1????
probably cut the darkblast since I would be upping the dredgers.
Maybe put 1 Glacial Chasm in vs swarm??

Sounds crazy but ever turn coliseum > breakthrough.

[Jaynel]

Has anyone tested life of the loam as a dredger?
I mean the ability to return coliseum every turn to play seems pretty good.
I might start testing -3 breakthrough +2 life from the loam +1????
probably cut the darkblast since I would be upping the dredgers.
Maybe put 1 Glacial Chasm in vs swarm??

Sounds crazy but ever turn coliseum > breakthrough.

Seems like overkill, considering a single Coliseum activation usually gets there.

[jimirynk]

Seems like overkill, considering a single Coliseum activation usually gets there.

I know It is that is why I think loam might be worth testing.
Example you keep a decent hand with 2 land and w.e. else, start dredgeing into no action.. your upkeep you see a loam + coliseum in you gy dredge loam play land pass? Your going to exploded the next turn.
Maybe over just the singleton darkblast.

[claudio.r]

The list looks great. The deck needs sage for more speed and stability. The 2 blasts didn't work out that well against the gobs??? what happened??? Over-all great list and congratulations on your good performance and strong finish ^^

The games against gobs were really unlucky, the only time i saw a blast, it didn't matter, as he had already 2 fanatics, 1 ringleader, 1 sharpshooter, siege gang commander and 3 tokens. Not even archangel was able to save at that time.
I'm still working on the list, i haven't playtested sage yet, but i'm going to do that this week.

[bum_man]

loam in this deck? I don't think t would further help the deck as it is now. Its a set-up card that'll slow the deck down significantly. Darkblast is better because it protects bridges by killing critters before the bridges become online. This deck rarely needs to get back lands that it has in the gy. If you want something to work something to that effect, do try testing eternal witness.

[jimirynk]

Idk I like 12 dredgers but darkblast MD has yet to ever be useful.
Might cut it for a Lark or archangel which are superior vs gobs.

[jimirynk]

Updated list:

2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
1 ????? ( either a darkblast/thug/breakthrough/ or a DR target..)
Board:

4 Pithing Needle/null rod (meta game choice)
4 Wispmare
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of revelation
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 ???? ( either a DR target if not one MD/ or maybe a Cov)


This is the list, the Inkwell in the board might come out if their is a archangel MD that's just overkill, CoV are impressing me less and less do to the fact I never side them in.. this might be do to the fact I know how all the tier decks side vs us..

Another note Undiscovered Paradise make it difficult to hard cast the ancient grudge and ray games 2/3.. just informing ppl.

Also on the DR target in the board akroma seems pretty decent in this spot do to the fact that you only side it in vs the matchups its mvp in.( this is if there is no archangel md.

[Jaynel]

Another note Undiscovered Paradise make it difficult to hard cast the ancient grudge and ray games 2/3.. just informing ppl.

Jesus tap dancing Christ, people. Run 1 Tarnished Citadel and 1 Undiscovered Paradise and 4 City, Mine, and Coliseum. Wasn't this figured out months ago?

And run the 4th Ichorid maindeck. It is that good.

[jimirynk]

Jesus tap dancing Christ, people. Run 1 Tarnished Citadel and 1 Undiscovered Paradise and 4 City, Mine, and Coliseum. Wasn't this figured out months ago?

And run the 4th Ichorid maindeck. It is that good.

That was my mana base but after cutting null rods I saw no use for tarnish except the Match ups where I side 2ccs spells.

Also the choice of running 3-4 is a meta game choice there is not a perfect list of this MD or SB it should very depending on what you plan on seeing.

@Jaynel
post list or gtfo.

[Jaynel]

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage

Sideboard:
4 Null Rod (Null Rod is a HUGE reason behind running 14 lands and no LED)
3 Firestorm (4 is one too many, I found myself never boarding in the whole set.)

2-3 Chain of Vapor
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
(These 5-6 slots are pretty flexible. It all depends on personal preference and what you fear the most. It could be some combination of Ingot Chewers and Wispmares, but again: we should take advantage of being able to flashback [and hardcast] spells.)

1 Ancestor's Chosen (Goyf Sligh, Zoo, Goblins)
1-2 Eternal Witness/Llawan, Cephalid Empress/Reveillark/Darkblast/whatever

I ran double Paradise for a while, and fanning open hands with two of them were the worst. It was an easy choice: I'd rather take 3 from Citadel then give up a turn.

Why run Inkwell Leviathan? It really only seems good against U/g/x aggro-control, which we already have a rather favorable matchup against (especially if running Null Rods).

[Vespero82]

So even though this is first time posting I have been keeping up on the discussion of cards to include and decklists posted by others and want to share a build that I got from starcitygames that I really think is strong, plus a report on a tournament I went to. First the list,

Land
4 City of Brass
3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Colesium
4 Gemstone Mine

Creatures
1 Flame Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Narcomeba

Enchantment
4 Bridge From Below

Sorceries
4 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return

SB
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Darkblast
3 Pithing Needle
2 Wispmare
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Wispmare
1 Ray of Revalation
1 Ancient Grudge

Round 1: This first round was against red green Aggro Loam in which he won the die roll and went first. He starts with taiga and passes, while I open with Gem mine and play putrid imp. He proceeds to drop a wasteland and chalice for 1. This is where breakthrough is better than Life from the loam as I am able to drop cards in the graveyard dredge with my draw and then break through. Even if he destroyed my colesium I would have still been able to drop citadel for colorless to get around chalice. I proceed to win after that.
The second game I proceed to sideboard in chain of vapor, pithing needle, Ray of revalation, ancient grudge. The second game I win on the back of Ichorid and bridge from below thanks to the fact that his tarmogoyf cant die because it is to big, me getting zombies, and him dredging his answers with loam.

Round 2: Counterslivers (W/U) The first game was weird as I had to keep a hand of 5 and him also a hand of 5. He start with land and I also play a land and proceed to drop imp which he dazes. I continue to drop lands while he gets stuck trying to find lands using both a brainstorm and a ponder, eventually I get to 3 lands and drop a stinkweed imp which he forces. He proceeds to drop a sinew sliver and passes. My turn I dredge stinkweed and proceed to cast one of the two dread returns in my hand targeting another stinkweed in the yard. This is actually good because he has only one card in hand and i need the dread returns in the yard. He casts a second sinew and swings which I block with stinky. I then proceed to dredge and hit a narcomeba and hardcast the second stink with one still in the yard. Pretty much the game ends as I take 6 damage over two turns but pop two cephalids that overwhelm his lone plated sliver after I block sinew when he swings again. The second round is much of the same thing except he sided in a burreton forge tender for the bridges which I needle (following the same exact sideboard plan as the previous round) and when he made the mistake of going alpha strike with a winged sliver, sinew sliver, mutavault, meddeling mage (naming dread return) and burreton. I take the damage from everything except the mage which I Block with a zombie token. and proceed to win by bringing back 2 ichorids dredging into a narco ( 2 in play) sacing 3 of my 5 zombies tokens and bringing flamekin for lethal.

Round 3: I play some kid who brought some weird 5 color deck. He was not prepared for ichorid and I stomp him since he can only make token creatures that do not remove my bridges.

Round 4: B/W aggro with vindicates, hymns, confidants and all that good stuff. The first game I just overwhelm him with ichorids, imp, bridges, and some good dredging. The second game I lead early with some ichorid damage even though he has relic out first turn. I force him to pop it after I deal 7 and have 2 zombies (He swords the imp that got the one damage in) out also he has a dark confidant out. I proceed to do zombie beat down which leaves him in a weird position. I have a a thug and stinkweed in play after struggling to get to three land (sinkhole wasteland vindicate), he has killed both my zombies earlier after dropping some tidehallow scullers, his top is not finding him answers and eventually he trades thug with confidant and stinkweed with edict I proceed to dredge and eventually hit two bridges and a narcomeba. the life totals are 7 (him) and 3(me) he proceeds to crypt me since he realizes that he has at least two turns before its over (since I am casting thug and stinkweed) One of which I dredged and another I drew. He can not find an answer and I win.

Please remember that I am doing this from memory so some of the details might be off, but I am recalling them as best as possible. I will end with this though, I think that LED-less ichorid is such an amazing deck as I have also played against dragon stompy and counterbalance and won just because of how resilient it is and how it doesn't necessarily have to cast anything to win.

[jimirynk]

SB
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Darkblast
3 Pithing Needle
2 Wispmare
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Wispmare
1 Ray of Revalation
1 Ancient Grudge



Wait 4 wipmare or 2?

[Vespero82]

sorry, 2 wispmare.

[jimirynk]

@Jaynel
Are list are only 2 card off you run 4 ichorids I run 3 and 1 darkblast.
I don't run null rod so I run 2 paradises as of right now.



Why run Inkwell Leviathan? It really only seems good against U/g/x aggro-control, which we already have a rather favorable matchup against (especially if running Null Rods).

Inkwell is in the board do to the fact that uwg thresh is getting bigger right now and I wanted a fatty vs all countertop decks and simply they can not deal with it.

I was running null rod for a while till I realized the decks that ran splits of cypt/ee/relic also ran artifact hate..
If there a good player(which the ppl I play test are) they don't side them out.
Also countertop either sides in Ancient grudge with their k grips MD or their playing gwu thresh with 4 pridemage MD which stay in DAZE which punches null rod in the dick and half the list run spell snar over ponder??
SO lets think the match ups were null rod is superior it gets peed on by 5-10 spots as you side them in.

[Jaynel]

@Jaynel
Are list are only 2 card off you run 4 ichorids I run 3 and 1 darkblast.
I don't run null rod so I run 2 paradises as of right now.



Inkwell is in the board do to the fact that uwg thresh is getting bigger right now and I wanted a fatty vs all countertop decks and simply they can not deal with it.

I was running null rod for a while till I realized the decks that ran splits of cypt/ee/relic also ran artifact hate..
If there a good player(which the ppl I play test are) they don't side them out.
Also countertop either sides in Ancient grudge with their k grips MD or their playing gwu thresh with 4 pridemage MD which stay in DAZE which punches null rod in the dick and half the list run spell snar over ponder??
SO lets think the match ups were null rod is supierour it get peed on by 5-10 spots as you side them in.

You're responding pretty aggressively. I'm not attacking you, so please chill out.

How is Pithing Needle better than Null Rod, besides dodging Daze to an extent?

[jimirynk]

You're responding pretty aggressively. I'm not attacking you, so please chill out.

How is Pithing Needle better than Null Rod, besides dodging Daze to an extent?

I'm not trying to attack you filling out job apps and posting is frustrating..

Most of the format right now typically runs 3-4 sideboard cards vs. dredge.
Most match ups you know what they're going to side in, and needle is always easier to get down on the table with spell snar daze wasteland discard and sometimes not mulliganing to a hand with 2 lands + a null rod.

Also in certain match ups like gobs you know they side in x relics. If they go first turn fanatic you go first turn needle on fanatic, and continue playing and the you can put a needle on relic.

I'm not saying null rod is bad I love the card but right now in the meta I think I'll stick with needle.

[Jaynel]

Most of the format right now typically runs 3-4 sideboard cards vs. dredge.
Most match ups you know what they're going to side in, and needle is always easier to get down on the table with spell snar daze wasteland discard and sometimes not mulliganing to a hand with 2 lands + a null rod.

True, Needle is almost always easier to resolve. But Needle isn't always as relevant in U/g/x aggro-control matchup because of their diverse hate. We have so many cards that they're forced to counter (permanent discard outlets, Cabal Therapy, and Careful Study). Once resolved, Null Rod turns off SDT, which makes it harder for them to dig for answers, and turns off ALL hate for just one more mana. Most U/g/x aggro-control decks aren't packing land and hand disruption, so the one mana more seems negligible.



Also in certain match ups like gobs you know they side in x relics. If they go first turn fanatic you go first turn needle on fanatic, and continue playing and the you can put a needle on relic.


Null Rod here shuts off Vial and Relic. We have Firestorms to deal with Fanatic before we start going crazy. Though I can see how Needle is much easier to cast facing Wasteland/Rishadan Port. It's probably better in these matchups, but I think Firestorm buys enough time to get going.



I'm not saying null rod is bad I love the card but right now in the meta I think I'll stick with needle.


I'm going to reconsider Needle, possibly include them in addition to Null Rod. Good luck with applications, they suck :frown:

[jimirynk]

I'm going to reconsider Needle, possibly include them in addition to Null Rod. Good luck with applications, they suck :frown:


My side board a couple pages back had 4 null rods and 3 needles, but after testing I switched to 4 needles 3 null rods.
I then cut the rods down to 2 due to the lack of diverse boards vs. me.
But I said in a diverse meta I would think about running 3 and 3.

On another note I don't play fire storm, haven't tested with it but I never would have enough cards to side it in vs. swarm due to siding in either needle or cov.

I think that is why you like null rod more and I like needle?:confused:

[Vespero82]

I have to agree with jimirynk on needle. Needle sometimes just hits things beyond crypt and relic, like creatures that sac themselves. I think needle is more useful because during game two you have a more reactive stance since you are responding to the opponents first turn. So it can react to sac creatures, crypt, wasteland, relic, cycle lands... Also it allows you to keep hands that only have one land so you can start dropping imps and tribes to bait dazes so a needle can resolve, or you can just drop a second land.

[jimirynk]

I think it all depends on what you plan on seeing.


Also the darkblast is now a lark.
I tested a archangel vs. goyfsligh and all it does is timewalk and kill a creature..
Lark/sage helps but I might make it two sages.

[Joe_C]

This is the board I am working with now:

4 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
3 Firestorm
2 Wispmare
1 Ancestor's Chosen
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Undecided(may be another dread return target or a ray of revelation or ancient grudge)

This seems pretty sturdy at the moment

[jimirynk]

After testing vs gwu thresh..... my head hurts.
Needle don't got what it takes. they run after board k grip/ee/crypt/teeg/relic/pridemage/ all wrapped around trinket mage daze s.s force..

Need 4 rods for this match up will test at another time..
going to bed.

[1maarten1]

Updated list:

2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
1 ????? ( either a darkblast/thug/breakthrough/ or a DR target..)
Board:

4 Pithing Needle/null rod (meta game choice)
4 Wispmare
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of revelation
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 ???? ( either a DR target if not one MD/ or maybe a Cov)


This is the list, the Inkwell in the board might come out if their is a archangel MD that's just overkill, CoV are impressing me less and less do to the fact I never side them in.. this might be do to the fact I know how all the tier decks side vs us..

Another note Undiscovered Paradise make it difficult to hard cast the ancient grudge and ray games 2/3.. just informing ppl.

Also on the DR target in the board akroma seems pretty decent in this spot do to the fact that you only side it in vs the matchups its mvp in.( this is if there is no archangel md.


Nice list, agree with you with every take, only i would go for the third cov in the side and 1 darkblast md for reasons stated earlier. It really helps you in some matchups, i would rather have it then an later DR target i think.

~Maarten

[BKclassic]

I'm not trying to attack you filling out job apps and posting is frustrating..

Most of the format right now typically runs 3-4 sideboard cards vs. dredge.
Most match ups you know what they're going to side in, and needle is always easier to get down on the table with spell snar daze wasteland discard and sometimes not mulliganing to a hand with 2 lands + a null rod.

Also in certain match ups like gobs you know they side in x relics. If they go first turn fanatic you go first turn needle on fanatic, and continue playing and the you can put a needle on relic.

I'm not saying null rod is bad I love the card but right now in the meta I think I'll stick with needle.

I think y'all need to reconsider Unmask. It seems pretty solid against UGW decks and a solid way to help you lay down your Rod.

[jimirynk]

I have but it seems very unlikely to me that im going to side in 4 null rods and 2(?) unmasks, and then draw a hand with 2 lands a null rod a unmask a black card and a dredger..

I like the idea but its hard to find cards to side out in that match up.
How I board is -3 breakthrough, -1 DR -lark. +4 null rod/pithing needle,+1 Inkwell .
Sometimes -1-2x for ancient grudges.
I'm testing the rods tonight to see how they perform in the match up.
I'm also thinking 4 ancient grudges might be better then null rods/needle.
You bait and relic or crypt, they drop E.E early vs us do to therapy.
I really like the power of grudge in this build do to the high amount of lands.

My side right now:
4 Pithing Needle( null rod if ancient grudge doesn't help)
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Ancient Grudge( if testing goes bad I'm making 4 Leyline)
2 Wispmare(might due a 1/1 split with ray of revelation)
1 Inkwell Leviathan

[jimirynk]

I've found Reveillark to be a win-more card. If you were able to reanimate a Cephalid Sage from Rev for example, you could have just as easily DRed Sage back into play to clean out a huge chunk of your library. Likewise, you can also do something like DR FKZ directly for the instant win instead of reanimating Rev, saccing it to a Therapy and then reanimating FKZ.

The lark is in my MD do to goyf sligh/goblins being a 60-40 game one depending on how you dredge.
The lark was a single darkblast which really never helped vs those match ups.
But with lark being really good when your bridges have been removed its a one card powerhouse that almost always gets you win.

On a side not I have not played a match up were lark was bad in the MD.

[jimirynk]

My side right now:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Wispmare
1 Inkwell Leviathan

This is my board right now and I'm in love with it.
4 ancient grudges come in along side with an Inkwell vs. gwu thresh and out of the 6 games after board I only lost 1 due to a rip crypt then a couple turns later a ripped relic, but the game was still close.:laugh:

[bum_man]

after testing lark and sage in the main deck, i don't believe they work great together. More often than not i still end up returning sage most of the time. I'll be moving Reveillark to the sb. Pre-board sage is just the better target, hands down. Since i run darkblast i dont have much use for lark pre-board.

This now makes my sb:
4 Chain of Vapor (-1 Cov for one more metagame slot)
3 Pithing Needle
3 Wispmare
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancient Grudge
2 CotV/Metagame Slots
1 Reveillark


Im trying out the 2 thug/2 darkblast split again to see if it will work out, again but instead of taking out the 4th therapy I'm thinking of cutting either the 2nd Sage or 3rd Breakthrough. I'm leaning towards cutting the 3rd breakthrough since this deck doesn't go for it as much. And having multiple sages enables the DDD approach to explode into win faster. Any thoughts are much appreciated. ^^

[jimirynk]

after testing lark and sage in the main deck, i don't believe they work great together. More often than not i still end up returning sage most of the time. I'll be moving Reveillark to the sb. Pre-board sage is just the better target, hands down. Since i run darkblast i dont have much use for lark pre-board.



The lark is a fall back plan I'm still testing match ups but the list shows good results vs:
Aggro loam/good match up
Gwu thresh/ good match up
Goyf sligh/ a little bumpy but favorable
Train wrech/good match up
Testing goblins right now.

Edit: I was wondering what you guys bring in and what you take out vs goblins(3color)?

[Raptor]

This is the deck I will probally bring at the next tournament :
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Putrid Imp
2 Tireless Tribe
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba

4 Bridge from Below
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
3 Firestorm

My meta has many aggro deck such as merfolk, and got many control, where I need the firestorm to start the dredge engine game 1. Not a lot of combo, so I don't really want to run the 4th therapy, and I cut a tireless tribe for the fire storm.

My Sideboard will be :
4 Pithing Needle (I prefer running these then Null Rod because I don't like being vunerable to spell snare / daze / wasteland)
2 Ray of the relevation
2 Wishpmare
3 Ancient Grudge (versus Dragon Stompy, explosives..)
2 Chain of vapors
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Ancestor's chosen

[bum_man]

Edit: I was wondering what you guys bring in and what you take out vs goblins(3color)?

Running my new build that has the 2/2 thug split, 2 sages, 3 returns, and 2 breakthrough. I'd go -1 thug, -1 sage, -1 return, -1 careful study (this would be -2 study if i still ran 3 breakthrough) for 3 needles and 1 ancient grudge or 1 chain of vapor (for random stuff like lotv if ever). ^^

Ive tested this list against gwu thresh earlier and it seems to be running fairly well, I haven't been missing the 3rd breakthrough and the 2 sages have been MVP as usual. I configured this deck to be a tad slower and more consistent especially for blue decks, Im still going to test this against faster decks like red burn, gobs, and see if it can keep pace with them.

// Lands 14
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tarnished Citadel

// Sorcery 13
2 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return

// Instants 2
2 Darkblast


// Enchantments 4
4 Bridge from Below

// Creatures 27
2 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
3 Ichorid

// Sideboard: 15
SB: 1 Reveillark
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Ray of Revelation
SB: 3 Wispmare
SB: 2 Chalice of the Void, 1 Ancient Grudge/3 meta slots
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Chain of Vapor

[jimirynk]

After testing my board:
4 ancient grudge
4 chain of vapor
4 pithing needle
2 ray of revelation
1 inkwell leviathan


I'm in love with 4 ancient grudges, they come in over needle in all the match ups were I would side them in.

It makes hands infinitely better due to the fact you don't have to mulligan into your answers, you just slow roll players and therapy their hand. The only thing you have to worry about is a play ripping a relic/crypt but in the first 3/4 turn you usually either win/set up a fatty creature/zombie hord and a crypt/relic won't matter.

might end up cutting x needles and maybe x covs.

[bum_man]

@jimirynk: Im a little iffy about using grudges over needles vs crypt/relic. The point of using needle is to prevent the opponent from ripping their crypt or in some cases forcing them to rip it early. Dredging into grudge to kill off their crypts would still make them able to crypt off our gy which is not really what we want to do though because we still need losing stuff. We can cast it but having to wait for two mana timewalks you too much. I run 1 grudge because i dont have the 4th needle and there are a lot of naughts and ensnaring bridges randomly showing up in sb cards these days. I may run 2 grudges in addition to 3 needles for artifact hate because its great to be diverse in answers too. Slow rolling against non-blue decks that run artifact hate isn't really that good because they are more or less capable of keeping pace with this deck. Grudges are great but i wouldn't run them in place of needles though. ^^

Edit: I'm currently testing between Inkwell Leviathan vs Reveillark at the sb slot for the beater vs blue deck. Any thoughts on this?

[jimirynk]

Edit: I'm currently testing between Inkwell Leviathan vs Reveillark at the sb slot for the beater vs blue deck. Any thoughts on this?

Inkwell is better vs. blue they can't get it off the table or block it, I side out lark for inkwell because he's such a beast.

[1maarten1]

Hey guys, this sunday i have my 40-man tournament which i will be playing with this deck :wink: . Im trying to get my sb updated a little, and get 1 paradise for my maindeck. Could someone please help me with what to board cause i'm a little worried about that. I'm going to try to get the sideboard posted by Jimirynk(sorry if i spelled it wrong :frown: ) but im never sure what to board out against what decks.

Thanks, Maarten

[bum_man]

@maarten: The opening post has a summary of basic sideboarding strategies for the deck. If that isn't enough then, what decks are you expecting to see and which of them are problematic per se? ^^

[1maarten1]

@maarten: The opening post has a summary of basic sideboarding strategies for the deck. If that isn't enough then, what decks are you expecting to see and which of them are problematic per se? ^^

Ok :P i see now :). So you usually take out some breakthrough's and 1 sage, 1 DR (except if ur boarding an other DR target in i guess). But how about the merfolk match?? Could you perhaps make a list of what cards u may NEVER board out? that would be awesome :laugh:

thanks, Maarten

[bum_man]

Ok :P i see now :). So you usually take out some breakthrough's and 1 sage, 1 DR (except if ur boarding an other DR target in i guess). But how about the merfolk match?? Could you perhaps make a list of what cards u may NEVER board out? that would be awesome :laugh:

thanks, Maarten

I looked at your list, do try to make the 3rd thug into darkblast for more consistency in seeing them.

You actually have more slots you can go -3 breakthrough, -1 blast, -1 Return, -1 FKZ for 4 needles and a ray of revelation for their propaganda, and may be inkwell, if not don't take out the FKZ. ^^

Just take out breakthrough vs blue decks, take-out either one of the two thugs vs red or any black variant or one of the two blasts vs blue. Vs Rock or any black variant try to side-in Chains first to see if they have leyline, jailer or whatever.

[Joe_C]

I'm happy with this at the moment:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug(having 12 dredgers is amazing and its ichorid food)
3 Tireless Tribe
2 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot
3 Dread Return
4 Ichorid
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge From Below

SB:
4 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Wispmare
3 Firestorm
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Reveillark

[1maarten1]

I looked at your list, do try to make the 3rd thug into darkblast for more consistency in seeing them.

You actually have more slots you can go -3 breakthrough, -1 blast, -1 Return, -1 FKZ for 4 needles and a ray of revelation for their propaganda, and may be inkwell, if not don't take out the FKZ. ^^

Just take out breakthrough vs blue decks, take-out either one of the two thugs vs red or any black variant or one of the two blasts vs blue. Vs Rock or any black variant try to side-in Chains first to see if they have leyline, jailer or whatever.

Okay, so vs blue u want ur pithing needles//ray of revelations in, vs black chains and maybe needles for deeds, vs red u might want ur inkwell in and for the rest???? I think i'll be fine :wink: thanks alot,

Maarten

[bum_man]

@Maarten: my last post confused even me so to be clearer:

Vs Blue-You need needles and inkwell here
Vs Merfolk and BANT-Apart from the the ones above, you'd probably play rays too because these decks play propaganda apart from hate.
Vs Red-You don't need the inkwell that much. All you need in this match-up generally are the Needles and the Darkblasts for their fanatics and the like.
Vs Black Variants-Chain and Darkblasts Game 2 to see if they have leyline or not. If they have leyline or wheel of sun and moon you can opt to replace the chains with wispmares or rays. Darkblasts are key in this match-up because of the possibility of Jailer post-board.

Hope this helps. Good Luck in the tournament. ^^ Post how you faired after. :laugh:

@Joe_C: How is your list against fast decks like red burn, goyf sligh, goblins, affinity, etc.? Im playing a list that is just 3 cards different from your list, Im just wondering how you did against them especially pre and post-board. I haven't tested against these yet, just looking for your experience regarding this.

[1maarten1]

@Maarten: my last post confused even me so to be clearer:

Vs Blue-You need needles and inkwell here
Vs Merfolk and BANT-Apart from the the ones above, you'd probably play rays too because these decks play propaganda apart from hate.
Vs Red-You don't need the inkwell that much. All you need in this match-up generally are the Needles and the Darkblasts for their fanatics and the like.
Vs Black Variants-Chain and Darkblasts Game 2 to see if they have leyline or not. If they have leyline or wheel of sun and moon you can opt to replace the chains with wispmares or rays. Darkblasts are key in this match-up because of the possibility of Jailer post-board.

Hope this helps. Good Luck in the tournament. ^^ Post how you faired after. :laugh:

@Joe_C: How is your list against fast decks like red burn, goyf sligh, goblins, affinity, etc.? Im playing a list that is just 3 cards different from your list, Im just wondering how you did against them especially pre and post-board. I haven't tested against these yet, just looking for your experience regarding this.

Thanks :). I will try to get a small report asap!

maarten

[Joe_C]

@Joe_C: How is your list against fast decks like red burn, goyf sligh, goblins, affinity, etc.? Im playing a list that is just 3 cards different from your list, Im just wondering how you did against them especially pre and post-board. I haven't tested against these yet, just looking for your experience regarding this.

I havent had the opportunity to test much lately. MWS hasnt been working for me and I dont have a local group to play with at the moment. When MWS picks up again if I play these matches I will take notes as much as possible. I would say Reveillark is good against sligh/goblins since they can nail bridges out of out graves easily enough. Pretty much trying to win fast is our best option

Also, ancestor's chosen is really solid against aggro. Most red aggro cant deal with a 4/4 first striker, even if they kill it, we can bring it back for more life gain again.

Testing this board when I have a chance:

3 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
3 Unmask(just to help resolve rod, doubles as awesomeness against combo)
2 Wispmare
1 Chain of Vapor(may become a flashback spell)
3 Firestorm
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Reveillark

[jimirynk]

@ everyone.
The point of this deck is to make sure YOU WIN GAME ONE.
If you can cut 1 card from the main deck to help your troublesome match ups(goyfsligh, merfolk, goblins, affinity) why wouldn't you?
I run lark in my maindeck which gives me an advantage game 1 vs otherwise 50-50 match ups..
Do to this fact I win a lot of games with dredge.
I'm not saying if your not running lark your bad, what I'm saying is if you beat every deck but gwu thresh and you side in a inkwell and stomp them.
RUN IT IN YOUR MAIN.
Save room in your board for 4x's.

So please cut 1 card from all your decks and make it something to give you an edge on iffy game 1s.

Also if you care about this deck and you take it seriously try 4 ancient grudges and test it out.

[bum_man]

@ everyone.
The point of this deck is to make sure YOU WIN GAME ONE.
If you can cut 1 card from the main deck to help your troublesome match ups(goyfsligh, merfolk, goblins, affinity) why wouldn't you?
I run lark in my maindeck which gives me an advantage game 1 vs otherwise 50-50 match ups..
Do to this fact I win a lot of games with dredge.
I'm not saying if your not running lark your bad, what I'm saying is if you beat every deck but gwu thresh and you side in a inkwell and stomp them.
RUN IT IN YOUR MAIN.
Save room in your board for 4x's.

So please cut 1 card from all your decks and make it something to give you an edge on iffy game 1s.


On the contrary, this deck is about winning games 2 and 3. Dredge has been the strongest combo deck in the format after flash got the axe. Its unbelievable resiliency to basic disruption strategies and its unorthodox yet fast approach to winning makes it a monster pre-board. This deck doesn't have a lot of problems in winning game 1 because most of the time you can just pull-off the combo and win before they do. Replacing cards in the deck so as too weaken the combo pre-board for a card like say Inkwell Leviathan for blue match-ups is not a good plan.
Let's say Inkwell improves your blue match-up, and you board in inkwell in place of a sage. It will improve your blue match-up (which you already have above 65-35 chance of beating) for the price of making the combo inconsistent and a tad slower. More often than not you'll need to race almost all, if not all the opponents your up against. That means by running mainboard inkwell you further improve your already good match-up in exchange of slowing down making your game against most other match-ups inconsistent.

This goes the same for Reveillark, You replace sage with a lark against goblins, affinity, etc. It does improve those match-ups relatively but it slows you down which makes other match-ups like say combo much worse. This is the reason why I prefer running darkblasts over thugs is for this match-up. It solves the problem creatures while at the same time it doesn't slow you down because its a dredger. You can now combo-off and win against them at a consistent turn 3 or 4 unlike lark where you completely move to a different gameplan.

All i wanted to say is game 1s are probably the only thing that all dredge decks are good at. This is why it is important to test a particular build against a lot of other decks to see if they do well against all.

[jimirynk]

On the contrary, this deck is about winning games 2 and 3.

I agree 100% but you still need to win game 1.
Having 1 extra thug or 1 extra breakthrough isn't whats making you guys win games 1 its the deck it's very strong.
I run 1 lark and 1 sage as I said before to almost guaranty game 1 even vs. your problematic match ups.
If you think winning games 2 and 3 is hard have fun trying to win both after you lose game one to a mogg fanatic.

[1maarten1]

Hey guys, i took the 11th place in my tournament this day. I had a chance making T8, but i made some playmistakes and had 1 really stupid paring, i'll try writing a full report tomorrow with my list and sb and stuff :smile:
Now im going to bed.

Night

[Joe_C]

Parcher suggested Greater Gargadon as a SB card for LED ichorid. In actuality, its not a bad choice.... I am trying a playset in my board myself.

[jimirynk]

@ Joe c.
Came in first today at a tournament playing my list.

I beat landstill twice and aggro loam.
I only sided in 4 ancient grudges all day, just saying.
If anyone interested ask questions.

[Joe_C]

@ Joe c.
Came in first today at a tournament playing my list.

I beat landstill twice and aggro loam.
I only sided in 4 ancient grudges all day, just saying.
If anyone interested ask questions.

Nice work. Any detail to your matchups?

[bum_man]

@jimirynk: well done dude. :cool: its great that you and your list have been playing great. ^^ Care to share a little report? I assume Reveillark has been MVP as usual.

[1maarten1]

Okay my tournament report! :wink:
I was playing the following list:
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tarnished citadel
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
1 Darkblast
/ Side
4 Pithing Needle
4 Ancient grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Ray of revelation
1 Inkwell Leviathan

Round 1: vs Ichorid :eyebrow: (/w LED)
game 1: he is just too quick for me and goes off turn 2 with led/deep analysis.
Then i make my first big mistake, i forget that he might have leyline in his board, i didnt side anything in because i forgot about those.
Game 2: he mulls to 3, i go down to 4. He goes T1 leyline, i go GG.

Round 2: vs Merfolk
Game 1: I just slow role over him, no problems here.
Game 2: I have 12 zombies on the board and an inkwell, only problem: 2 propeganda, i have only 2 more mana in my deck and 1 in play and my rays got countered. He taps my own city of brass with Reejeree and kills me. (lame).
Game 3: I kill him turn 2, 1 turn before he lands propeganda.

Round 3: vs Goblins
Game 1: Easy win, nothing to say here.
Game 2: I keep a bad hand, and get no land draws. He quickly kills me.
Game 3: Easy win, nothing to say here.

Round 4: vs Red death
Game 1: Here i make the mistake of the day, i forget to return ichorids which would have been lethal to him. Next turn he kills me with lightning bolt.
Game 2: I start, he goes layline, i chain it turn 1. His turn: he goes badlands mogg fanatic, my turn i dredge some but nothing special. His turn: swamp, dark ritual tap badlands hardcast layline, GG.

Round 5: vs Elves
Game 1: Easy win, nothing to say.
Game 2: I throw a therapy on Relic, for the rest nothing special.

This gets me to 9 points, which got me to place 11. Someone was picked randomly with 9 points to join the T8, but unfortunately it wasnt me :rolleyes: . I had fun and i go home with chrome mox, which was ok for my first tournament with the deck and my third tournament overal :cool:

Hope it can help ya out :wink: , feel free to ask questions

~Maarten

[bum_man]

@maarten: Your maindeck only has 59 cards according to my count, what your 60th card? @@
You would've been in the top 8 if you won against red death, am I right?
Well, the whole list seems to be standard which is great. I got 1st in a tournament once and the same thing happened to me against an ichorid match-up.^^ Rookie mistake with the deck, I guess that occasionally happens.
How was the sideboard, especially inkwell and grudge?
Over-all congratulations on playing fairly well with the deck for the first time. :cool:

[1maarten1]

@maarten: Your maindeck only has 59 cards according to my count, what your 60th card? @@
You would've been in the top 8 if you won against red death, am I right?
Well, the whole list seems to be standard which is great. I got 1st in a tournament once and the same thing happened to me against an ichorid match-up.^^ Rookie mistake with the deck, I guess that occasionally happens.
How was the sideboard, especially inkwell and grudge?
Over-all congratulations on playing fairly well with the deck for the first time. :cool:

Thanks ;) I forgot the 1 darkblast MD :laugh: . Yea i would have made T8 if i won vs that red death. The inwell was great vs folks, although i could have won easily without it, the grudges nearly didnt see any play at all except vs goblins, they pretty much rocked there. So i think im keeping it like this, only thing is that i will look for a spot for reveillark. Thing that didnt really help was the darkblast, so i'll maybe find something else in that place.

~Maarten

[bum_man]

Thanks ;) I forgot the 1 darkblast MD :laugh: . Yea i would have made T8 if i won vs that red death. The inwell was great vs folks, although i could have won easily without it, the grudges nearly didnt see any play at all except vs goblins, they pretty much rocked there. So i think im keeping it like this, only thing is that i will look for a spot for reveillark. Thing that didnt really help was the darkblast, so i'll maybe find something else in that place.

~Maarten
Do you think Darkblast would've mattered more if you had two along with two thugs?

jimirynk just kicked-ass in a tournament with a Reveillark list in place of that random darkblast. His report will help you. ^^

[1maarten1]

Do you think Darkblast would've mattered more if you had two along with two thugs?

jimirynk just kicked-ass in a tournament with a Reveillark list in place of that random darkblast. His report will help you. ^^

Hmmm not really i think, at the times where i would use them, for example when there was a cursecatcher on the table, i would have cast my draw already, i would rather go with lark in its place i think since when he removes bridges i just go like k, but hello trolls :laugh:
I think i'll try lark for a while. And Jimirynk im looking out for your report :wink:

~Maarten

[jimirynk]

1#Reveillark
1#Cephalid Sage
3#Dread Return
4#Careful Study
1#Tarnished Citadel
1#Flame-Kin Zealot
1#Undiscovered Paradise
4#City of Brass
4#Cephalid Coliseum
4#Bridge from Below
3#Tireless Tribe
4#Putrid Imp
4#Cabal Therapy
4#Golgari Grave-Troll
4#Stinkweed Imp
3#Golgari Thug
4#Gemstone Mine
4#Narcomoeba
3#Breakthrough
3#Ichorid
// sideboard
4#Wispmare
4#Ancient Grudge
1#Inkwell Leviathan
1#Ancestors Chosen
1#Ray of Revelation
4#Pithing Needle


Quick report.
Round 1 most recent UWb landstill list(runs 2 relic main 1 in the board..)

He wins the dice roll followed by a turn 1 e.e. for 0.
My turn hand was imp,tribe, study,troll,therapy,city,coliseum,dread return.
I draw a breakthrough and smile.
Turn one city play tribe.
He goes and play land pass I dredge into w.e.
Therapy force hit 1 see wrath swords swords ee lands(one being west)
Play break through dredge return lark sac therapy name swords return a troll and a flamekin swing.
game two.
I side in 4 grudges, side out -3 breakthrough -1 lark
He mulls to six and draws 7 had to mulligan to 5.=D
He draws 5 and smiles and go's relic first turn.
I play turn 1 study discard a ggt pass.
My turn I dredge the ggt and see a grudge, I play imp therapy him from flashback name force hit 1 and see a wrath and a wish in his hand.
kill relic he blows it up.
Pass he makes a land drop.
I study into a tribe/coliseum, Play both pass he drops e.e.
My turn explode grudge his e.e. win with a zombie horde.


Round two(I win dice roll)
Same deck but with vindicate over the relic(MD)
Game one was a blow out with breakthrough off another topdeck,
turn 3 kill he reveals his hand with humility and wrath.

Game 2 was epic.
I side the same was as last MU.
He drops turn one relic.
I therapy force first turn hit 2.
his turn pass.
my turn imp, study dredge see a grudge and we both laugh his turn he vindicated my land(we both agreed that needle or ee here would have got nuked..)
my turn kill his relic at upkeep discard ggt dredge into 2 narcos. I make a land drop and pass.
Slow rolled him to 7. Therapy naming force b4 a DR Fkz for the win he had a counterspell..
He rips relic I'm left with 3 zombies and 2 narcos to his 1 factory.
I swing he make 4 soldiers kills one of my zombies and blocks the other 2.
goes to 5.
Pass he brainstorms for wrath and vindicates a zombie.
My turn swing with 2 narcos put him to 3. play stinkweed imp and pass.
He storms and plays humility.
I swing with 4 1/1's with to his 1 2/2. GG.

round 3 vs aggro loam(I win dice roll)
Imp turn 1 pass.
He chalices for 1 I lol.
My turn dredge into a narco, pass.
He drops goyf.
My turn return a ichorid dredge return sage win.

Game 2 I side in 4 wispmare side out -3 breakthrough -1 fKz
He mulls to 6 starts with leyline, land, mox diamond, chalice for 1 and passes with one card in hand.
I go turn 1 wispmare pass.
He draws and cylces and passes.
My turn draw pass, we do this for like 4 turns each.
0 I discard a SWIx3, see narcos and ichorids.
He drops a Crusher followed by a goyf, its not enough.

It was only 3 rounds.
I came in first.
Meta was gobs,aggroloam,landstill,ugr moon thresh, and a mono black deck with withered wretch MD, and 2 red decks(?).


Mvp of the day, Grudge. Followed by top decking breakthroughs.=P
Questions?

[Bahamuth]

I'm trying out versions of Ichorid as well. Perhaps the following can help a little: I'm going to try to calculate estimates of mulligan rates comparing this version to the LED version. I seem to mull much more with the LED version, although I'm not entirely sure why exactly. For starters, here are the chances of drawing a certain number of land in your opening hand.

14 Land:
Land in hand:
0 = 13.8%
1 = 33.9%
2 = 32.2%
3 = 15.3%
4 = 3.9%

15 land:
0 = 11.7%
1 = 31.6%
2 = 33.2%
3 = 17.5%
4 = 5,0%

I think we can say that practically every hand without land is a mulligan. The difference between 14 and 15 land decreases the chance 2%. On the other hand, hands with 3 land are 2% more common. As far as I know, these hands can be very keepable, but not always. Of course, the more land you draw, the less buisness you get.

I'll try to calculate with what amount of land we have the biggest chance of drawing either 1 or 2 land in the opening hand.

EDIT: Got that done. The optimum is actually on 12 land, with a 67.3% chance. 14 and 15 are both only off a few percentage though. I have no idea if this is going to be helpful, but we'll see...

[Joe_C]

I'm trying out versions of Ichorid as well. Perhaps the following can help a little: I'm going to try to calculate estimates of mulligan rates comparing this version to the LED version. I seem to mull much more with the LED version, although I'm not entirely sure why exactly. For starters, here are the chances of drawing a certain number of land in your opening hand.

14 Land:
Land in hand:
0 = 13.8%
1 = 33.9%
2 = 32.2%
3 = 15.3%
4 = 3.9%

15 land:
0 = 11.7%
1 = 31.6%
2 = 33.2%
3 = 17.5%
4 = 5,0%

I think we can say that practically every hand without land is a mulligan. The difference between 14 and 15 land decreases the chance 2%. On the other hand, hands with 3 land are 2% more common. As far as I know, these hands can be very keepable, but not always. Of course, the more land you draw, the less buisness you get.

I'll try to calculate with what amount of land we have the biggest chance of drawing either 1 or 2 land in the opening hand.

EDIT: Got that done. The optimum is actually on 12 land, with a 67.3% chance. 14 and 15 are both only off a few percentage though. I have no idea if this is going to be helpful, but we'll see...

LED mulligans more often not just due to the low land count, but it suffers from a lack of turn 1 discard/draw effects. Non-led runs 6-7 permanent discard effects. And 4 careful study as a norm. I personally run 12 dredgers, so my percentages of having one in combination with an outlet in my opening grip is fair. I personally am very satisfied with my maindeck, my SB however is under constant scrutiny by myself, Ichorid should win G1 regardless unless your opponent maindecks hate or you underestimate their deck and overextend your resources. Games 2 and 3 are the real reason to run non-led IMO. We have better SB options since we run more land and can play the slow ichorid beat game much better than lists running LED. I know non-led lists have not put up the tournament results that LED lists have, but that time is coming soon my friends, it is coming soon.

@Jimirynk- Mind posting your list for reference on this page(maybe just paste it into your report)

[jimirynk]

I posted my list above.
I also have info that people might not know that I find useful.
Out of 40 hand the amount of keep able hands looked like this.
7 card hands=25keep able/15 not
6 card hands=22keep able/18 not
5 card hands=16keep able/24 not
4 card hands=9keep able/31 not
3 card hands=9keep able/31 not

The 3 and 4 card hands I was very flexible with what I considered a keep able hand.

So what I realize is 6-7 card hands seem to be as consistant so don't be afraid to mull to 6.

5 card hands are iffy but Its a little less than 50-50 chance of keep able.
3/4 card hands are never keepable avoid at all cost lol.

That is all.

[Phthisisity]

you should try out standstill in the breakthrough slot..... it is bananas...

[jimirynk]

you should try out standstill in the breakthrough slot..... it is bananas...

Stfu you.

[1maarten1]

Okay my tournament report! :wink:
I was playing the following list:
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tarnished citadel
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
1 Darkblast
/ Side
4 Pithing Needle
4 Ancient grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Ray of revelation
1 Inkwell Leviathan

~Maarten

Since i read Parchers new primer im testing some new changes and they are all acting really well to me.
I play a Lark instead of the blast MD.
Side i play this now:
4 greater gargadon
4 chain of vapor
2 firestorm
2 ancient grudge
2 wispmare
1 ancestors chosen

Any questions/suggestions??

~Maarten

[jimirynk]

Since i read Parchers new primer


Where?

[1maarten1]

Where?

Here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13767
And it rocks! :laugh:

[bum_man]

I've tested my list (posted a few posts ago) extensively earlier and it showed mixed results.

:. With 2 breakthrough and 12 dredgers this deck has great game against any blue deck.
:. Reveillark has impressed alot. Its playing better than the Lakers. Like jimirynk said, it wins games that are otherwise iffy. Its a really great addition and given enough resources in the graveyard, its arguably MVP.
:. Maybe it was just my luck, i played grudges against affinity earlier, and it seems marginal. After having my gy removed i lost before i was able to recover, he was able to take out my only 2 returns in the deck, post-board,

I maybe ditching this list and going back to my old list that is similar to jimirynk's except id play blasts over thugs (still testing if playing one over the other is significantly relevant especially with the addition of Reveillark). This list was the most consistent list I've played so far and it has the least tendency to dredge like sh*t.

@jimirynk: how do you usually board-out your return targets are there times where taking out sage is better than lark or vice versa? I've taken sage almost always in testing earlier and I assume you also do.

This is all just quick outputs from the testing I did earlier. Questions?

[Jaynel]

So I've been working off the last list I posted (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=345487&postcount=301), and I'm trying Eternal Witness over Cephalid Sage. The sideboard has changed a bit. Most notably, no Null Rods. It's definitely not a bad choice and I'd consider playing it, but testing has shown that Ancient Grudge serves a similar role. The fact that it's an instant is awesome.

This is what I've been trying:

4 Ancient Grudge
4 Pithing Needle
3 Firestorm
2 Wispmare
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Ancestor's Chosen

Here's how I've been boarding - is this right?

U/x aggro-control/control - varied artifact based graveyard hate (Relic, Crypt, EE):
-1 FKZ
-1 Witness/Sage
-1 DR
-3 Breakthrough
-1 Careful Study/Tireless Tribe (not sure which is better)
-1 Golgari Thug
+4 Ancient Grudge
+3 Pithing Needle
+1 Inkwell Leviathan

Merfolk/Goblins - single artifact based graveyard hate, sacrifice effects (Relic, Mogg Fanatic/Cursecatcher):
-1 FKZ
-1 DR
-3 Breakthrough
-1 Ichorid
-1 Putrid Imp
-1 Golgari Thug
+4 Pithing Needle
+3 Firestorm
+1 Inkwell Leviathan (Merfolk)/Ancestor's Chosen (Goblins)

Zoo/Goyf Sligh - single artifact based graveyard/creature hate (Crypt, Jitte)
-1 FKZ
-1 Witness/Sage
-1 DR
-3 Breakthrough
-1 Ichorid
-1 Golgari Thug
+1 Ancestor's Chosen
+4 Ancient Grudge
+3 Pithing Needle

B/x Aggro - enchantment based graveyard/creature hate, artifact based graveyard hate (Engineered Plague, Leyline, Crypt/Relic)
-1 FKZ
-1 Witness/Sage
-1 DR
-3 Breakthrough
-1 Careful Study
-1 Golgari Thug
-1 Ichorid/Tireless Tribe (unsure on this slot)
+2 Wispmare
+4 Ancient Grudge
+3 Pithing Needle

Combo:
-1 Ichorid
+1 Ancestor's Chosen (:frown:)

What have other people tried?

[jimirynk]

@jimirynk: how do you usually board-out your return targets are there times where taking out sage is better than lark or vice versa? I've taken sage almost always in testing earlier and I assume you also do.




Sage always come Sage is bad vs. decks that remove your bridges.
Whats the point to DR sage when all your bridges get rfg in response to anything you do.

For example goyfsligh -3 breakthrough -1 sage +4 Ancient grudges ( on the play)
On the draw side out Fkz for chosen due to them being able to race you.

[Joe_C]

@Jaynel: I know we pretty much play in the same metagame, but are you comfortable only having 2 wispmares as answers to leyline? Against deck I would fear seeing it come in I like having 4 or more answers available to it. Most likely they are going to try to mulligan into it, but having jsut 2 answers would scare the crap out of me

[jimirynk]

@Jaynel: I know we pretty much play in the same metagame, but are you comfortable only having 2 wispmares as answers to leyline? Against deck I would fear seeing it come in I like having 4 or more answers available to it. Most likely they are going to try to mulligan into it, but having jsut 2 answers would scare the crap out of me


My side is
// sideboard
4#Wispmare<---4:confused:
4#Ancient Grudge
1#Inkwell Leviathan
1#Ancestors Chosen
1#Ray of Revelation
4#Pithing Needle

[Jaynel]

@Jaynel: I know we pretty much play in the same metagame, but are you comfortable only having 2 wispmares as answers to leyline? Against deck I would fear seeing it come in I like having 4 or more answers available to it. Most likely they are going to try to mulligan into it, but having jsut 2 answers would scare the crap out of me

If I was afraid of Leyline, I wouldn't be playing Ichorid.

No, but I'm more worried about improving the Merfolk and Goblins match. I think I'll see more of those decks than Leyline. A third Wispmare would be good, but I don't know what I'd cut for it. Maybe the 4th Pithing Needle?

[jimirynk]

My board right now.
4 wispmare
4 ancient grudge
4 firestorm
1 ancestors chosen
1 inkwell leviathan
1 eternal witness

[Jaynel]

My board right now.
4 wispmare
4 ancient grudge
4 firestorm
1 ancestors chosen
1 inkwell leviathan
1 eternal witness

Could you explain why you decided to cut Pithing Needle?

[Joe_C]

Heres my newest blend:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Grave troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Narcomoeba
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot

SB:
3 Pithing Needle
2 Ingot Chewer
3 Firestorm
3 Wispmare
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestor's Chosen

Having dropped rod from the board, I suppose I can go down to 13 lands:This allows me to keep 12 dredgers, 4 Imp, 3 Tribe and have 3 breakthrough. Coliseum #4 is nice and all, but not producing white/black holds me back sometimes, its good in certain situations, but multiples suck %90 of the time.

[jimirynk]

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Grave troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Narcomoeba
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot

1 (Thug/lark/breakthrough/colliseum) Still leaning towards lark

I have been liking breakthrough more and more in game 1's.
But I also have been loving 14 lands..

Side board.
4 ancient grudge
4 wispmare
1 inkwell leviathan
1 ancestors chosen
1 ray of revelation
4 ???????

[Jaynel]

I don't think the maindeck is even worth discussing anymore - most disparities revolve around one slot: Ichorid #4 or Thug #4 or Coliseum #4 (which I think should be included) or Reveillark or Darkblast.

Sideboards! Don't just post them, explain choices and why you chose to include or exclude things.

[jimirynk]

I don't think the maindeck is even worth discussing anymore - most disparities revolve around one slot: Ichorid #4 or Thug #4 or Coliseum #4 (which I think should be included) or Reveillark or Darkblast.

Sideboards! Don't just post them, explain choices and why you chose to include or exclude things.

agreed

[bum_man]

The sideboard I'm with now is:

3 Pithing Needle - The common sideboard its only 3 coz i only have 3 ^^
3 Chain of Vapors - The all-purpose card
3 Firestorm - Haven't tested these extensively, i'm planning to use these against merfolk but i haven't had a chance to testplay it with someone yet
3 Wispmare - Leyline, Wheel, etc.
1 Ray of Revelation - Singleton because im only planning to use this against propaganda effects
1 Ancient Grudge - Arguable slot, i use this in the 4th needle slot, and for some naughts and ensnaring bridges that are randomly showing up in my meta. Im going to test more copies for grudge because of its great play with jimirynk.
1 Inkewell Leviathan - Any blue decks bane I guess.

[jimirynk]

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Grave troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Narcomoeba
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot
1 Reveillark


My board.
4 ancient grudge
4 wispmare
4 chain of vapor
1 inkwell leviathan
1 ancestors chosen
1 ray of revelation


Match ups.

Goblins: -3 breakthrough,-1fkz-1 sage/+4 ancient grudges,+1 ancestors chosen

Goyf sligh: -3 breakthrough,-1fkz-1 sage/+4 ancient grudges,+1 ancestors chosen

Merfolk: -3 breakthrough,-1fkz,-1 reveillark/+4 ancient grudges,+1 inkwell leviathan(want to find room to fit in the 1 ray of revelation vs. propaganda)

Uwg thresh: -3 breakthrough,-1fkz,1 reveillark/+4 ancient grudges,+1 inkwell leviathan

Uwx landstill: -3 breakthrough,-1 reveillark/+4 ancient grudge(want to find room to fit in the 1ray of revelation vs. moat/humility)

B/x aggro: Game 2/ -3 breakthrough,-1 reveillark,-1DR,-1FKZ/+4 Cov,+2 wispmare
Game 3/-3 breakthrough,-1reveillark,-1DR,-1FKZ/Side according to hate either +4 ancient grudge,+2 Cov/ Or +4 wispmare,+2 CoV

****Aggro loam: Game 2/-4 breakthrough,-1fkz,/+4 CoV,+1 wispmare
Game 3:-4 breakthrough/ +4wispmare(vs leyline),+1 CoV/ Or +4 ancient grudge,+1 CoV

****Match ups are the match ups I'm not 100% on how to board.

Questions, insight?


Edit: changed the board/main deck.

[jimirynk]

Edited how i side/md/sb.

[Elf_Ascetic]

How do you decide which of the graveyard hate-hate to board on against Sui? Or do you board both Wispmare and Grudge?

Could you give some insight on how good your matchups are?

[jimirynk]

B/x Aggro - enchantment based graveyard/creature hate, artifact based graveyard hate (Engineered Plague, Leyline, Crypt/Relic)
-1 FKZ
-1 Witness/Sage
-1 DR
-3 Breakthrough
-1 Careful Study
-1 Golgari Thug
-1 Ichorid/Tireless Tribe (unsure on this slot)
+2 Wispmare
+4 Ancient Grudge
+3 Pithing Needle



That seems horrible.

My board.
4 ancient grudge
4 wispmare
4 chain of vapor
1 inkwell leviathan
1 ancestors chosen
1 ray of revelation



Look up for how I board vs. B/x Sui, I just added it. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=348369&postcount=370)

[jimirynk]

I'm going to a tournament tomorrow with a 100+ turnout expected.

I'm going to play this list
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Grave troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Narcomoeba
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot
1 ???????( lark,thug,breakthrough,colliseum)


My board.
4 ancient grudge
4 wispmare
4 chain of vapor
1 inkwell leviathan
1 ancestors chosen
1 ray of revelation

I will write a tournament report asap.

[jimirynk]

Could you explain why you decided to cut Pithing Needle?

Siding in 4 grudges over 4 needles keeps you from having to mulligan to a hand with a needle.

Grudge also makes your opponent pop relic/e.e/crypt/needle/powder keg early.

[Joe_C]

Are you going to the Vestal tourney?

[Joe_C]

Siding in 4 grudges over 4 needles keeps you from having to mulligan to a hand with a needle.

Grudge also makes your opponent pop relic/e.e/crypt/needle/powder keg early.

Im still not sure about flashback spells, sure they come in handy, but I would rather play a permanent answer. Greater Gargadon is actually really good. Since slow dredging really requires Ichorid's to keep coming back, gargadon is a way around Swords to plowshares, which really can slow the game down if they remove Ichorid

Jimirynk: the list you posted is a mirror of mine aside from I have already determined to run 4 thug in my list. After G1 the ichorid man plan really needs to be solid, having that extra food for ichorid has just been great.

[jimirynk]

Jimirynk: the list you posted is a mirror of mine aside from I have already determined to run 4 thug in my list. After G1 the ichorid man plan really needs to be solid, having that extra food for ichorid has just been great.

GG is still a answer that needs to be in your opening hand,
If your going to mull to 5 for a GG why not just mulligan to needle?

[Vespero82]

I played at the Grand Prix Seattle side tournament yesterday and ended up 3 wins 2 draws into top 8 where I lost 1-2.
Charbelcher 2-0
Dreadstilil 2-0
GWR Zoo 2-0
Draw against UG madness
Draw against Canadian Thresh

Top 8
Lost to It's the Fear

My maindeck was
Creatures
1 Flame-kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tireless Tribe

Enchantments
4 Bridge From Below

Sorceries
4 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return

Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City Of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Tarnished Citadel

SB
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Pithing Needle
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Wisp Mare
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Angel of Despair
1 Darkblast
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Ichorid

[Joe_C]

GG is still a answer that needs to be in your opening hand,
If your going to mull to 5 for a GG why not just mulligan to needle?

depending on the matchup gargadon does not always come in, playing the slow dredge game is where its at no matter if you have gargadon in your hand at all. Playing imp turn 1 then dredging into ichorid beats is the way to go.

I played LED ichorid yesterday at Vestal, I walked in there with my most recent non led list and decided that Unmask and the overall speed was too good for me to ignore for such a large tourney. I lost my first 2 rounds then went 2-0 my next 3 matches, then faced 2 terrible matchups in rounds 6 and 7. Best play of the day: got my opponent to 3 life via ichorid/zombie beats, on my turn I sac a zombie token to flashback therapy targetting myself, in response my opponent plays pyrokinesis targetting my 2 narcomoebas, 1 ichorid, and his own goblin lackey, I proceed to give myself 3 zombie tokens (he argues about bridge getting removed, I get a judge and he explains the whole deal), I get my 3 zombie tokens, I name dread return as my therapy target, I ditch my return to the grave from my hand, then proceed to sac my 3 tokens to flashback dread return targetting zealot for a solo 3 damage kill.

[OurSerratedDust]

My board.
4 ancient grudge
4 wispmare
4 chain of vapor
1 inkwell leviathan
1 ancestors chosen
1 ray of revelation

I will write a tournament report asap.

I like the list, but how does it deal with Yixlid Jailers?

[Vespero82]

@ Joe_C, I had the same situation come up twice with the charbelcher player round 1 and Dreadstill round 2. He claimed that when we exchanged narcomeba's and his goblin tokens that I didn't get zombie tokens.

Also Yixid Jailer doesn't seem to get played at least in the Northwest mainly because people see it as to fragile at one toughness even though it is a house. However, Jimirynk can just cast chain of vapor and then go balls out with breakthrough, coliseum, or careful study and try to win on the spot.

[Joe_C]

@ Joe_C, I had the same situation come up twice with the charbelcher player round 1 and Dreadstill round 2. He claimed that when we exchanged narcomeba's and his goblin tokens that I didn't get zombie tokens.

Also Yixid Jailer doesn't seem to get played at least in the Northwest mainly because people see it as to fragile at one toughness even though it is a house. However, Jimirynk can just cast chain of vapor and then go balls out with breakthrough, coliseum, or careful study and try to win on the spot.

well as long as it is your turn you get to gain tokens before bridge goes bye bye. Smart players(which apparently there were not that many there yesterday from some of the schenanigans I heard of) would attack into you(likely being that you would not block unless the damage was lethal), then burn your creatures and theirs on their turn to avoid you gaining tokens. My first round yesterday G1 I thought my opponent was terrible: I unmasked him turn 1 and yanked a force(which he had, and should have forced my unmask if he was a better player)I saw a STP in his hand. He allows me to go to the man plan and not once tries to keep me off 3 creatures to use for return. G2 I dont even board since I expect to roll him, he gets early relic and I had mulled to 4 so I scoop it. G3 was a fucking grind and he topdecks STP to nail my Gargadon and he had 2 E Plagues naming zombie on board so my recurring Ichorids do jack shit.

[Vespero82]

How would I only gain tokens during my turn? I control both the abilities so wouldn't I be allowed to stack them according to my choice?

[jimirynk]

@ Joe C.
I was at the lotus torn with my most recent list went 5-1-1 to the last round( draw was to a teammate and the loss was to itf do to horrible mulliganing game 1 and 3) and with 1 round left I was in 9th place had to win to make top 8 lose and make top 16, get paired down versus led dredge loss the dice roll he wins first turn.. game two side in 4 wispmare 2 CoV mull to 4 he keeps a 6 card hand wins like 3rd turn..
I made 19th and lost in the final round of draft for the mana drain.
VERY HAPPY WITH THE DECK.

[andrew77]

I played LED dredge at Vestal, but I was pretty impressed with the LEDless decks performance. I would still say I love the speed that LED brings to the deck, but the consistency of this version must be nice (most of my losses came from mulling to oblivion).

Just a few thoughts to share from the tournament...

Ancient grudge seems awesome after seeing them in action. I ran needle's and they were never any good since blue decks can always find a different answer. If I named crypt, they'd get relic and vice versa.

I also ran a singleton brainstorm in my list. It was quite good since it can act as a breakthrough to win the game, but also has the added ability of putting narcs from your hand on top of the deck. I would definately run a couple if I played the LEDless version.

Running 4 ichorids and 3 dread returns is also so much more consistent than dropping the number of either. When I first tested the deck I ran 4 and 2, but was having trouble finding a dread returns at times so I decided to cut an ichorid since double Ichorids don't really add any speed to the LED list and 3 should be enough. Now I will have games when I face thresh and not flip over an ichorid until I have already dredged 40 cards. It doesn't happen often, but it really sucks when it does.

[jimirynk]

@andrew congrats on everything and balls on the merfolk match up dude.
After I get sleep a torn report and what I think about what you said.

[Joe_C]

How would I only gain tokens during my turn? I control both the abilities so wouldn't I be allowed to stack them according to my choice?

You only get to stack the triggers if you are the active player. If they attack you and you block, they get to decide the order that the triggers occur. If you attack and they block, you get to decide.

[bum_man]

You only get to stack the triggers if you are the active player. If they attack you and you block, they get to decide the order that the triggers occur. If you attack and they block, you get to decide.
I always thought that regardless of who is the active player, it is the player who controls the abilities that can decide the order on how the triggers resolve. Like how stax does the smokestack before tanglewire thing on your upkeep. This happened to me a number of times already and the judges have all rule in favor of me regarding the bridges triggers.

[Vespero82]

That's what I thought too, the judge at the tournament also said the same thing.

Here's a question that came up and left my It's the fear opponent upset. If my opponent shackles my ichorid and at the end of the turn he has to sacrifice it does it go to his graveyard and get placed in mine therefore removing my bridges or does it go into mine and give me zombie tokens? I thought that judged ruled correctly when he said that permanents always go to their OWNERS graveyard and not the CONTROLLERS graveyard.

[Joe_C]

That's what I thought too, the judge at the tournament also said the same thing.

Here's a question that came up and left my It's the fear opponent upset. If my opponent shackles my ichorid and at the end of the turn he has to sacrifice it does it go to his graveyard and get placed in mine therefore removing my bridges or does it go into mine and give me zombie tokens? I thought that judged ruled correctly when he said that permanents always go to their OWNERS graveyard and not the CONTROLLERS graveyard.

The judge is correct. If you are the owner of a card, it can only go to YOUR grave

[jimirynk]

...
Just wrote a huge torn report and my window closed.......:mad:


sea stompy 1-0
landstill2-0
itf2-1
goblins3-1
teammate3-1-1
nassifs4-1-1
gwu 5-1-1
dredge5-2-1 got paired down when i was in 9th and lost went to 19th...


Mvp of the day.
Ancient grudge.
Ray of Revelation.
Might cut wispmare from board for 4 leyline.

[jimirynk]

Is this thread dead?

[Joe_C]

Is this thread dead?

not sure why nothings been put in here recently. Although I think most maindecks have been decided as to what is optimal. Sideboards are all meta dependant, and I think every solid option has been gone over here already. Just need some good performances from the deck to make it active again. Only 1 Ichorid deck made Top 8 at Vestal and it was running LED (so was I).

[andrew77]

not sure why nothings been put in here recently. Although I think most maindecks have been decided as to what is optimal. Sideboards are all meta dependant, and I think every solid option has been gone over here already. Just need some good performances from the deck to make it active again. Only 1 Ichorid deck made Top 8 at Vestal and it was running LED (so was I).

I have never liked the LEDless list, but have recently been impressed by it's resilience and consistency so I am currently testing a completely revamped version of the deck. I will post a list sometime soon.

[jimirynk]

not sure why nothings been put in here recently. Although I think most maindecks have been decided as to what is optimal. Sideboards are all meta dependant, and I think every solid option has been gone over here already. Just need some good performances from the deck to make it active again. Only 1 Ichorid deck made Top 8 at Vestal and it was running LED (so was I).

I only didn't make top 8 because I got PAIRED DOWN vs the top 8 ichorid player and he combo'd off turn 1 game one and game to 5 to try to trick him into thinking i had leyline and he combos off t1 without bounce he was bad and I saw him lose in top8 to a play error.

[Weekend Daddy]

could a singleton or double Horizon Canopy help the deck out? As it works as sort of a mini Cephalid Colluseum

[Joe_C]

could a singleton or double Horizon Canopy help the deck out? As it works as sort of a mini Cephalid Colluseum

the draw effect would be cool, but it doesnt produce blue or black. So it really wouldnt be worth running

[jimirynk]

Played a tournament tonight beat merfolk, bg control and the mirror lost to Ant...

My board looks liked this.
4 CoV
4 LotV
4 Ancient grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancestors chosen


Didn't even really play out game 2 vs combo he went turn 1 jailer and I laughed.

I cut inkwell from my board due to the fact that we already beat blue decks.

[Joe_C]

Played a tournament tonight beat merfolk, bg control and the mirror lost to Ant...

My board looks liked this.
4 CoV
4 LotV
4 Ancient grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancestors chosen


Didn't even really play out game 2 vs combo he went turn 1 jailer and I laughed.

I cut inkwell from my board due to the fact that we already beat blue decks.

you dropped firestorm? Ive come to love that card so much, I cant see playing without at least 3, also:only 2 answers for Leyline if your opponent palys it? I cant see ever going under 5, I run 6 to be secure

[Ssbm Rocks1]

Here's my list:

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Grave-Troll
3 Thug
4 Stinkweed imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
2 Cephalid sage
1 FKZ

4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return
3 Cabal therapy
4 Careful Study

4 Gemstone mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Tarnisher Citadel

I don't have a SB yet. They don't have tournaments near by, but there are other players with 43 Land, UGR Tempo Thresh, ANT, Full English Breakfast, and a few others. What SB cards would help these matchups? Also, what changes should be made to the main?

[jimirynk]

Here's my list:

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Grave-Troll
3 Thug
4 Stinkweed imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
2 Cephalid sage
1 FKZ

4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return
3 Cabal therapy
4 Careful Study

4 Gemstone mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Tarnisher Citadel

I don't have a SB yet. They don't have tournaments near by, but there are other players with 43 Land, UGR Tempo Thresh, ANT, Full English Breakfast, and a few others. What SB cards would help these matchups? Also, what changes should be made to the main?

If Ant and FeB are in your meta I would suggest cutting the citadel from 3 down to 1, play 2 undiscovered paradise and 1 citadel.

Side board..
Vs Ant. We have Chalice/Unmask/Leyline/Null rod/Ancestors chosen.

Vs FeB. We have Unmask/leyline/CoV.

Vs tempo thresh?? ancestor chosen(not that hard of a MU).

Vs 43 lands Leyline/needle/platinum angel/woodfall primus/angel of despair.

[bum_man]

My sideboard currently is:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Cov
3 Wispmare
3 Firestorm
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ancestor's Chosen

I try to make my sideboard very well rounded because the metagame where I play is very random. In one tournament red burn was everywhere, then the next tournament goblins were rampant, after that blue-based aggro control became rampant, the following tournament was full of black-based disruption, the most recent tournament saw non-dredge combo decks showed-up. Firestorm has been good in testing but never manage to side them in because I lack slots to do so, or may be its just my sideboarding plan.

@Joe_C: What is your sideboard plan vs decks you use Firestorm?

[Joe_C]

@Joe_C: What is your sideboard plan vs decks you use Firestorm?

I take out the combo usually since they are more likely able to remove bridges and go for the slow dredge game plan. Since I run 3 breakthrough and 3 Dread return, I do -1 breakthrough,-1 sage,-1 return,-1 flamekin +4 Firestorm..

[bum_man]

@Joe_C: You no longer side-in anti-hate?? My problem is not having enough slots because anti-hate cards take the 4 default slots. I tried -3 Breakthrough, -1 Sage, -1 Dread Return, -1 FKZ, -1 tribe for 3 Needles, 3 Firestorms and Chosen. I was still able to grind it out but its relatively a so-so performance.

[Joe_C]

@Joe_C: You no longer side-in anti-hate?? My problem is not having enough slots because anti-hate cards take the 4 default slots. I tried -3 Breakthrough, -1 Sage, -1 Dread Return, -1 FKZ, -1 tribe for 3 Needles, 3 Firestorms and Chosen. I was still able to grind it out but its relatively a so-so performance.

I thought you were just referring to what I took out just for firestorms:my bad. -1 thug, -1 tribe, -2 breakthrough,1 return for ancient grudge x4 or wispmare/chain mix, and ancestor's chosen ..My board currently:

4 Firestorm
3 Wispmare
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Ancestor's chosen

[bum_man]

@Joe_C: Oh I see, you don't side-in Firestorms along with anti-hate at the same time. Right now, I'm at 2 firestorms, I might take them out for 2 more Ancient Grudges making it 3/3 with Needles. I haven't actually tested them alot since I've been busy handling hate and i can't seem to find slots to use both the firestorms and anti-hate at the same time. X____X

I might be playing in a tournament tommorrow, and i'm expecting a wide variety of decks ranging from burn, to various thresh, affinity, landstill, loam, faeries, merfolk and NLU.

My sb is currently:

3 Needle (I don't have a 4th yet, i like a more preventive than reactive answer to crypt and relic)
3 Chain of Vapor (for random stuff)
3 Wispmare (I don't expect leyline but i do expect propaganda effects)
2 Ancient Grudge (i expect naughts in all blue decks)
2 Firestorm (I run 3 md darkblasts)
1 Ancestor's Chosen (Not really sure about this, blue match-ups probably)
1 Inkwell Leviathan (Blue or any other anti-blue tech)

I have never liked diluting the combo very much so I alot 4-5 slots regularly post-board all for anti-hate, a 6th slot is available in FKZ but i dislike siding him out since he is what gives this deck that additional push plus works wonders with Reveillark.

Comments, suggestions, reactions are welcome. hoping for a good finish later.

[Joe_C]

@bumman: since you run darkblast, maybe firestorm isnt needed for you as spot creature removal, although firestorm is an amazing sweeper and an uncounterable discard outlet. The damage it can deal to your opponent has come in handy several times as well.

[jimirynk]

Who else is stoked on the rule changes????:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Combat Damage no longer uses the Stack. Fuck you mogg fanatic it was nice seeing you in legacy.

Heelllllloooooooooo bridges not getting remove vs. red decks.:smile:

1. Upkeep LED/Draw step Ad Nauseam is not possible.
2. Can't wish for things rfg.
Hello worst match up getting nurfed.

1. Upkeep LED/draw step dredge/ active coliseum after hitting threshold is not possible.

Hello 2nd worst match up getting nurfed.

M10 life is good right now.:laugh:

[eq.firemind]

Hi people!

I have a friend that plays NODredge (he calls it Brotherhood of NOD:cool:)
I found myself constantly beating him with my Death and Taxes deck. I know M10 combat rules hit DnT worst of all decks, but I will play it anyway.
I want to ask how should my buddy side against me?
Well, he 85 % wins G1.

But G2 and 3 he meets:
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Children of Korlis (my antistorm card 'cause I don't own Chants right now)
4 Jotun Grunt
2 Samurai of the Pail Curtain
3 Stonecloacker
4 Swords to Plowshares
I have 6 turn 1 drops to RFG his bridges, so his chances to win fast are not brilliant. And the longer we play, the better hate hits the table.
Firestorm is not a solution here 'cause Burrenton > Firestorm.

I told him that he should run some Dark Blasts maindeck and more Chains of Vapor in side (he runs 1 at the moment). Am I right?

[1maarten1]

Hi people!

I have a friend that plays NODredge (he calls it Brotherhood of NOD:cool:)
I found myself constantly beating him with my Death and Taxes deck. I know M10 combat rules hit DnT worst of all decks, but I will play it anyway.
I want to ask how should my buddy side against me?
Well, he 85 % wins G1.

But G2 and 3 he meets:
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Children of Korlis (my antistorm card 'cause I don't own Chants right now)
4 Jotun Grunt
2 Samurai of the Pail Curtain
3 Stonecloacker
4 Swords to Plowshares
I have 6 turn 1 drops to RFG his bridges, so his chances to win fast are not brilliant. And the longer we play, the better hate hits the table.
Firestorm is not a solution here 'cause Burrenton > Firestorm.

I told him that he should run some Dark Blasts maindeck and more Chains of Vapor in side (he runs 1 at the moment). Am I right?

I think darkblasts are more of an personal choice, but you definately should run 4 CoV side. I dont run darkblasts, i did run 1 but now with fanatic nerfed he will see less play so i cut it.

Maarten

[Maëlig]

I told him that he should run some Dark Blasts maindeck and more Chains of Vapor in side (he runs 1 at the moment). Am I right?
A combination of dark blast (to take care of BFT) and firestorm (the rest, especially SotPC which hits icho quite hard). Firestorm is really quite good against D&T, if it wasn't for BFT.

I'm not sure I'd tweak my SB specifically to beat D&T though, it's a pretty random MU.

[bum_man]

Just got back from the tournament. I finished 3-1 (6-2 games) to place 4th. I lost my opening round 0-2 because of bad mulligans, was able to get back on track by winning the next 3 rounds 2-0. 2nd to 4th place were all 3-1, it's just that the 2nd place guy beat the 3rd place guy who was the guy that i lost to in my 1st round:

Decklist:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mines
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise

3 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return
4 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Bridge From Below

3 Darkblast

1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Reveillark
3 Tireless Tribe
3 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp

Sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Wispmare
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Firestorm
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Inkwell Leviathan

Here's my report: (Some details are sketchy)

Round 1: Bant Aggro (Loss)
Game 1: Mull'd to 3 still no land and no dredgers, a 7/7 knight of reliquary with double strike sealed the game for him.

Game 2: Sided in 3 Covs and 2 Needles for 3 breakthrough at return and lark. I was able to get a decent hand but he was able to get two propaganda in play before i get my graveyard into critical mass. I had one chain in hand then he was able to grow 3 knight of reliquaries to 17/17 along with a 4/5 tarmogoyf against my 2 Stinkweed Imps.


Round 2: Rock (Win)
Game 1: I get a great hand with an PImp, breakthrough, study, SImp, 2 lands, and something else. I Dredge 2 Bridges with Study which was killed by his STE, my breakthrough brought out two more Bridges that was lethal.

Game 2: I sided in 3 CoV and 1 Needle for 1 breakthrough, 1 study, a return and sage. Turns out he doesn't have the right sb with him. A repeat of Game 1 happened.


Round 3: Aggro Loam (Win)
Game 1: Had a great hand, i was able to dredge of study then when i declared breakthrough, he scooped.

Game 2: Boarded in 2 Grudges and 2 Covs for 1 breakthrough, 1 study, 1 return and 1 reveillark. He goes land done, then I therapy him for goyf (misplay), I saw CotV which he casts at 1 after. I should've played my tribe first, i top deck a grudge the following turn, i therapy him for jund charm which i hit one. I was able to combo-off a turn or two after.


Round 4: Madness (Win)
Game 1: I win the die roll, I keep a hand with 2 Breakthrough, 2 Coliseum, 1 GGT, 1 tribe, 1 Ichorid. I Breakthrough for 1 which he countered with circular logic, the following turn i drew into study into SImp and Bridge, Discarding the two Dredgers into Breakthrough into critical mass.

Game 2: I keep a hand of CoB, Coliseum, 2 Needles, tribe, Undiscovered Paradise, Narcomoeba. He starts of with basking rootwalla and crypt. I draw PImp. I play Coliseum into needle which he forced. He casts a mongrel, swing with rootwalla. I draw study, Then play CoB into Tribe then Needle on crypt. he casts a thought courier then swing with both creatures. I draw GGT. I cast Narcomoeba then Paradise into Study into GGT into SImp. He then thought couriered out an arrogant wurm, then he swings. I bring back two ichorids then coliseum and dredge on draw. There was 1 Bridge in the yard and no FKZ yet so I Sage into the win with FKZ the 56th card in my library.

Observations:
-Firestorm and Chosen sat on my sb the whole time.
-Grudge is great, my current 3/2 feels fine but im going to get my 4th in a few days so that may have to change into 4/2 or 4/1.
-Reveillark was sub-par. I never returned it once today, basically because i didn't go up against the match-ups where it was supposed to be used for, but over-all i didn't wish it was something else. With the new rules changes, fanatics and the like are slowly becoming less prevalent, could this mean a less effective Reveillark?
-Darkblast wasn't that relevant but i hadn't wished it was a thug though, i really like the utility of md blasts over thugs. All my wins are through the combo so I wasn't able to assess my aggro plan that much, it seems solid in theory so far though.
-The deck was really solid as it should be except for the bad mulligans which is really the worst that could happen.

Over-all, I liked how the deck and my sb played out. I could be playing the list above in a few other tournaments coming up and hopefully it does as well if not better than it did today.

Comments and reactions are welcome.:laugh:

[jimirynk]

ONce m10 comes out lark won't be needed.:cool:

[1maarten1]

ONce m10 comes out lark won't be needed.:cool:

Explain pls :eek:

@ Bum Man
Congratz on the finish! How was 3 DB for you? I think firestorm is more of an meta game choice, in my meta theres ALOT of merfolk and zoo so i'm finding it awesome but i can understand with those matches it just sits in your board.

Maarten

[bum_man]

@ Bum Man
Congratz on the finish! How was 3 DB for you? I think firestorm is more of an meta game choice, in my meta theres ALOT of merfolk and zoo so i'm finding it awesome but i can understand with those matches it just sits in your board.

Maarten

The darkblasts are out of playing preference. Its something I want to have in the opening grip because it deals with creatures that kill your bridges like mogg fanatic, cursecatcher, burrenton forge-tender, etc. It also deals with jailer, bob and other small creatures that can be to your advantage. These creatures are very common where I play and I don't like the idea of going to your sideboard to handle the creatures above, especially the bridge killers which can even cause you to lose pre-board games. Darkblast answers all these creatures and a dredger all in one card. The one card difference between blast and thug is negligible most of the time and the ichorid fodder function of thug is also negligible since I try to combo-out most of the time. I've tried playing with thugs and blasts, I noticed that there are more times that I wished a thug was a darkblast than the times I wished a darkblast was a thug. I tried playing both and it made the deck inconsistent so I trashed that idea. The utility that darkblast brings to the deck is something I really like. Just blast their bridge killer then win.


Firestorm wasn't part of my sb actually. I just put them in this tournament because there are 2-3 merfolk that played in the area where the tournaments was held. Zoo and Merfolk are actually the decks I was thinking on using firestorm mainly but i wasn't able to play against them in the tournament. On a sidenote, the champ of the tournament was a 4-0 Merfolk that came in late after the pairings where made, there was a guy that had a bye then, that is why he was still allowed to join in despite being late. Back to Firestorm, the thing is, the deck doesn't really need a board sweeper/spot removal against these match-ups because since it can win with the combo before the opponent does once it is able to handle the hate and the bridge killers. What i basically want is to stop them from stopping me from winning thus handling hate with needle and the bridge killers with blasts. The most obvious function I see in Firestorm is delaying their clock so I have more time to pull the combo off.


Explain pls :eek:

I also use Reveillark so I can somehow shed some light on this. Reveillark is just like darkblast in my deck because it gives me a way to handle bridge killers. Bridging out at least 6 3/3 hasted zombies to win is not that easy to do against a deck with 1 or 2 bridge killing creature (fanatic, cursecathcer, BFT, etc.) in play. In case you are not able to handle these creatures (via DBlast in my list) you can just dredge hella lot then return lark then kill him bringing back a Big GGT and FKZ (or GGTs that are lethal on their own) to swing for the win. I've actually managed to do this once or twice for lethal despite me not having possibly 3 more creatures in thug. This is one of the cases where having blast in place of thug is negligible while having thug instead of blast is bad. With the new rules changes, fanatics, goblin legionnaires and other sac-able creatures can no longer do stacked damage combat tricks like they used to. These tricks give tempo advantage, and this is what makes them very effective creatures at what they do. The new damage no longer stacks rule makes these creatures less effective, they are actually being dropped from lists all-over because of this. The loss of these bridge killers somehow makes the reason why Reveillark is in the deck less relevant thus making his slot not as optimal as it was, this may cause lark to be replaced by the 2nd sage just like in older lists.

[jimirynk]

Explain pls :eek:


Maarten

Mogg fanatic won't be as relevant in the format.

[jimirynk]

The one card difference between blast and thug is negligible most of the time and the ichorid fodder function of thug is also negligible since I try to combo-out most of the time.

Thug can make the deck do crazy thing.
I have won to many games from casting thug and sacing to DR or therapy putting a narco on top or a putrid imp to get the dredges out of my hand if I don't have enough of one to justify therapy myself.

Plus thug allows you to win with 0 cards in your library allows you to put a thug on top and then next turn draw play sac put thug on top.


I'm going to bostons 5k legacy event and I will post the list once I figure out some numbers.

I run 13 lands right now with 11 dredgers, want 14 lands and 12 dredgers.

[Joe_C]

I run 13 lands right now with 11 dredgers, want 14 lands and 12 dredgers.

ask and you shall receive my masterpiece:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Colesium
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge
4 Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed
4 Therapy
4 Thug
2 Breakthrough
1 Sage
1 Flame Kin
3 Dread Return

This has been solid for me.... I may play this list next time I get to go to a tournament. Father's day interferes with the Boston event for me

[hwtcharger07]

joe c what was your anti merfolk tech from awhile back and how did it work out for you

[bum_man]

Thug can make the deck do crazy thing.
I have won to many games from casting thug and sacing to DR or therapy putting a narco on top or a putrid imp to get the dredges out of my hand if I don't have enough of one to justify therapy myself.

Plus thug allows you to win with 0 cards in your library allows you to put a thug on top and then next turn draw play sac put thug on top.

Thug is indeed very useful. It can do a lot crazy things like recycle narcs and putrid imps. Its also a recuring blocker. I like the fact that thug can do these crazy tricks in the deck. But from my experience with the deck, I've lost more games because i wasn't able to keep my bridges in the game long enough than games because i wasn't able to recur narcs or an imp or having a recurring blocker. Thug and Darkblast have very different roles in the deck, they both are the best at what they do. Right now, I'd rather have the role that darkblast plays in my list. If the time comes that I feel darkblast is no longer needed, I'd be more than willing to replace them.
I tried running both in a 12 dredger 14 land deck with 2 breakthroughs and I didn't like it. The deck was inconsistent and the loss of the 1 breakthrough slowed the deck down a lot. I've lost a lot of games that i would have won if the deck was tuned to be faster. Thug and Darkblast are both good, right now I'd rather play Darkblast.

[andrew77]

I still haven't finalized a decklist, but I can say the following. Brainstorm is absolutely amazing. I have added the 4th tireless tribe for extra discard, but regardless brainstorm is much better than breakthrough. Anyway lets compare the 2.

Pro's for Brainstorm:

Instant speed
Can put narcs from hand on top of deck
Much better at finding answers post board
Doesn't destroy your hand when resolves
Rogue/unknown (at least for now)

Pro's for Breakthrough

An extra draw effect
Built in discard

Anyway In my testing brainstorm has just been amazing. It makes the deck more consistant without sacrificing any power. I would say that you are able to put a narc on top of your deck before you dredge for your draw step more often than you would need an extra drege that breakthrough offers.

Here is the decklist I am toying with for the moment.....

14 Lands
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mines
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Brainstorm
3 Careful Study

3 Dread Return
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge From Below
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Eternal Witness/Cephalid Sage

3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp

4 Tireless Tribe
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba

Witness might not make a ton of sense over sage at this point. I guess it would really depend on if you can make use of the sideboard with witness otherwise it would just be boarded out and sage would be a better maindeck choice.

The sideboard is still in the works and changes almsot daily so I will just post a finalized version once I can decide on what works best.

[Joe_C]

Andrew: Seriously: run 4 cabal therapy. It is one of the best cards in the deck. I had considered the 4th tribe myself, but Im not sold that its needed. Brainstorm>Breakthrough? not sure on this one, maybe a mix of the 2 but I wouldnt cut breakthrough entirely since it can dance around chalice @1 and brainstorm just cant do that

[andrew77]

Andrew: Seriously: run 4 cabal therapy. It is one of the best cards in the deck. I had considered the 4th tribe myself, but Im not sold that its needed. Brainstorm>Breakthrough? not sure on this one, maybe a mix of the 2 but I wouldnt cut breakthrough entirely since it can dance around chalice @1 and brainstorm just cant do that

I really dislike therapy as a discard outlet for myself.

If you are playing as a combo deck and do not plan on interacting 4 therapies is overkill. If you do interact, yes 4 therapies are nice, but I prefer the extra chance to draw a permanant discard outlet over a 4th therapy which we only really need against certain matchups anyway. I do have the 4th therapy in the board, but I would say it's rarely needed game one and I needed to cut something to make room so it seemed like the best choice.

On brainstorm my logic was the following. Breakthrough is one of your weakest cards alone. It require you to have something in the yard for it to be good and is also one of the cards you usually board out. Brainstorm was something I had randomely tested previously as a 1 of over a careful study and it really was amazing. The uses it has are great.

Also when it comes to chalice there is no need to worry because there isnt any real difference. Game 1 against a turn one chalice with them on the play you will not be able to do anything special with breakthrough untill maybe turn 4 and thats if you get a lucky dredge or two. If you are on the play their chalice isn't a problem since you will already have started your dredge engine and dragon stompy has no maindeck ways to stop you. Game two you will have ancient grudge and other goodies so it sholdnt be huge problem either. Also, in regards to game one a lot of players will drop chalice for 0 fearing LED if you played first since it is the more common version of ichorid.

[Joe_C]

I really dislike therapy as a discard outlet for myself.

If you are playing as a combo deck and do not plan on interacting 4 therapies is overkill. If you do interact, yes 4 therapies are nice, but I prefer the extra chance to draw a permanant discard outlet over a 4th therapy which we only really need against certain matchups anyway. I do have the 4th therapy in the board, but I would say it's rarely needed game one and I needed to cut something to make room so it seemed like the best choice.

On brainstorm my logic was the following. Breakthrough is one of your weakest cards alone. It require you to have something in the yard for it to be good and is also one of the cards you usually board out. Brainstorm was something I had randomely tested previously as a 1 of over a careful study and it really was amazing. The uses it has are great.

Also when it comes to chalice there is no need to worry because there isnt any real difference. Game 1 against a turn one chalice with them on the play you will not be able to do anything special with breakthrough untill maybe turn 4 and thats if you get a lucky dredge or two. If you are on the play their chalice isn't a problem since you will already have started your dredge engine and dragon stompy has no maindeck ways to stop you. Game two you will have ancient grudge and other goodies so it sholdnt be huge problem either. Also, in regards to game one a lot of players will drop chalice for 0 fearing LED if you played first since it is the more common version of ichorid.

On therapy: true, we want to be the fast combo deck: but how often does that happen? A TON of games are won on the backs of recurring ichords and zombie tokens, therapy gives us a reason to sack creatures to fill the board with tokens and when played from hand then flashbacked is extremely devastating in stopping the opponent from being able to answer your horde of zombies. I cant see dropping below 4. I may do some testing myself with brainstorm, the fact it is an instant makes it truly attractive....

[BreathWeapon]

Brainstorm is really, really strong and not as committal as Breakthrough. I've used it since Day 1 of Non-LED Dredge, and altho' it's more reliant on Putrid Imp and Tireless or DDD, it's ability to draw your answers and fuel your graveyard with out discarding your entire hand and "GGing" yourself to Tormod's Crypt is stellar.

Brainstorm may not be as powerful as Breakthrough game 1, but who cares about game 1? We win game 1 regardless, so if Brainstorm is a reasonable replacement for Breakthrough game 1 and improves game 2, it's the easy pick IMO.

[Joe_C]

I am 4 Foil Gemstone Mine, 4 Foil Ichorid, 4 Foil City of brass away from foiling my entire deck. Anyone got some of these to donate?:laugh:

Also: BUMP. Keep this on page one guys!

[jimirynk]

I am 4 Foil Gemstone Mine, 4 Foil Ichorid, 4 Foil City of brass away from foiling my entire deck. Anyone got some of these to donate?:laugh:

Also: BUMP. Keep this on page one guys!

I'm not going to be the only one playing all foil ledless dredge..=(

Btw went 4-3 drop at starcity games 5k..

Round 1,tes. 2-0 me.. don't ask me how..
round 2, zoo 1-2 ... mull to 4 all 3 games he didn't run fanatic or dredge hate fml..
round 3, ant.... 0-2
round 4, black sui 2-0
round 5 nassifs cb 2-0
round 6 eva green 2-1 lost game one after mulling to 4..
round 7 ant with dooms day...1-2 drop..

fml....
my board was
4 ancient grudge
2 ray of revelation
4 chain of vapor
4 leyline of the void
1 ancestors choosen


The leylines might become chailice or orim's chants after all the combo bumming me out.

After playing this deck so much I think 2 deep analysis should be md so many times this deck goes into dredge pass with 2 lands.
I'm going to test.

Also I ran 2 undiscovered paradise over the 1/1 split and was alway happy when I drew 1.

[Joe_C]

I'm not going to be the only one playing all foil ledless dredge..=(


After playing this deck so much I think 2 deep analysis should be md so many times this deck goes into dredge pass with 2 lands.
I'm going to test.

Also I ran 2 undiscovered paradise over the 1/1 split and was alway happy when I drew 1.

Unless you can find me some foil Firestorms, unfortunately I will never probably play a fully foiled version of the deck. And you cant get foil Paradises either :rolleyes:

Deep anaylsis has always been bouncing around as a possibility for me too, but the life loss is WAY more noticeable in this version. And also, what to take out? Breakthrough? That is really the most expendable card in the deck... Im back to running 13 land and 3 breakthrough at the moment(3 coliseums, since I cant stand getting 2 in my opening hand- I know the odds are baffling, but it happens to me a shitload when I run 4 so I dont). Breakthrough is one of those love to have it, hate to play it and suck it cards. I would try running brainstorm except I like having a draw spell that I can cast through chalice @1. Also, I would just give up on trying to beat combo. Unless you get the clue that they are playing combo and get to therapy them early and destroy their hand you will likely lose. Its not worth dedicating all the sb to to beat it consitently unless a shitload of people play combo, at least most of the time where I play combo is held down a bit since counterbalance is still rampant....

jimirynk- are you going to Hadley next month? Vestal on the 25th of July?

[jimirynk]

jimirynk- are you going to Hadley next month? Vestal on the 25th of July?

Yes my team travels to anything 6 hrs from nyc.

[jimirynk]

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Grave troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Narcomoeba
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot
1 Reveillark
SB:
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revilation
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Ancestor's Chosen

This is the list I've been piloting the last 3 tournaments.
I either have a 4 of leyline vs dredge or 4 combo hate cards.

The only chance vs combo is if you get a therapy in a fast hand on the play or they wiff it.

I think im might try 4 orim's chants over the 4 leylines for the next tournament.
If they don't see one on the dredge i just chant them after their adnassum and its probably gg.

[Joe_C]

jimirynk: keep a lookout for me at hadley. I wear glasses and have a nice scar on my left cheek thats fairly hard to miss. That should make me easy enough to pick out of a crowd :laugh:

Your maideck is practically the same as mine aside from the fact that I run thug #4 instead of Reveillark, and I run a 1/1 split of paradise/citadel, although I will likely switch to 2 citadel instead. Ive only had the bounce back effect of paradise come in handy like twice out of hundreds of games with the deck, although the damage sucks from citadel, the fact it stays in play after you use it outwieghs the bolt to the face side of it for the most part.

[jimirynk]

I run a 1/1 split of paradise/citadel, although I will likely switch to 2 citadel instead. Ive only had the bounce back effect of paradise come in handy like twice out of hundreds of games with the deck, although the damage sucks from citadel, the fact it stays in play after you use it outwieghs the bolt to the face side of it for the most part.


Opening hands with only one land and x one drops taking 9+ damage from your land alone isn't for me.

Turn one tarnish citadel tap imp 17
turn 2 discard dredger dredge play study 14
turn 3 dredge play breakthrough 11 ???

It is just as fast with a paradise.

[jimirynk]

my sb right now is

4 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revilation
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Unmask
1 Ancestor's Chosen


Unmask is testing good vs combo, not only does it up your discard spells to 8 after board but it also speeds you up to keep pass with combo.

Turn 1 unmask yourself take GGT breakthrough is the dumb nasty.

But I am throwing the mirror....

[Sigar]

How do you guys SB with this deck? If you were to board in 4 chain or 4 needle, what do you take out?

[jimirynk]

If I plan on the opponent siding in crypt or relic I tend to side out my breakthroughs.

I only side in Cov when I expect leyline. So you win game 1 side out breakthrough game 2 and I usually side back in breakthrough If their only hate is leyline.

[jimirynk]

This is how Jaynel sides.


This is what I've been trying:

4 Ancient Grudge
4 Pithing Needle
3 Firestorm
2 Wispmare
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Ancestor's Chosen

Here's how I've been boarding - is this right?

U/x aggro-control/control - varied artifact based graveyard hate (Relic, Crypt, EE):
-1 FKZ
-1 Witness/Sage
-1 DR
-3 Breakthrough
-1 Careful Study/Tireless Tribe (not sure which is better)
-1 Golgari Thug
+4 Ancient Grudge
+3 Pithing Needle
+1 Inkwell Leviathan

Merfolk/Goblins - single artifact based graveyard hate, sacrifice effects (Relic, Mogg Fanatic/Cursecatcher):
-1 FKZ
-1 DR
-3 Breakthrough
-1 Ichorid
-1 Putrid Imp
-1 Golgari Thug
+4 Pithing Needle
+3 Firestorm
+1 Inkwell Leviathan (Merfolk)/Ancestor's Chosen (Goblins)

Zoo/Goyf Sligh - single artifact based graveyard/creature hate (Crypt, Jitte)
-1 FKZ
-1 Witness/Sage
-1 DR
-3 Breakthrough
-1 Ichorid
-1 Golgari Thug
+1 Ancestor's Chosen
+4 Ancient Grudge
+3 Pithing Needle

B/x Aggro - enchantment based graveyard/creature hate, artifact based graveyard hate (Engineered Plague, Leyline, Crypt/Relic)
-1 FKZ
-1 Witness/Sage
-1 DR
-3 Breakthrough
-1 Careful Study
-1 Golgari Thug
-1 Ichorid/Tireless Tribe (unsure on this slot)
+2 Wispmare
+4 Ancient Grudge
+3 Pithing Needle

Combo:
-1 Ichorid
+1 Ancestor's Chosen ()

[jimirynk]

This is how I side when I ran wispmare.



My board.
4 ancient grudge
4 wispmare
4 chain of vapor
1 inkwell leviathan
1 ancestors chosen
1 ray of revelation

Goblins: -3 breakthrough,-1fkz-1 sage/+4 ancient grudges,+1 ancestors chosen

Goyf sligh: -3 breakthrough,-1fkz-1 sage/+4 ancient grudges,+1 ancestors chosen

Merfolk: -3 breakthrough,-1fkz,-1 reveillark/+4 ancient grudges,+1 inkwell leviathan(want to find room to fit in the 1 ray of revelation vs. propaganda)

Uwg thresh: -3 breakthrough,-1fkz,1 reveillark/+4 ancient grudges,+1 inkwell leviathan

Uwx landstill: -3 breakthrough,-1 reveillark/+4 ancient grudge(want to find room to fit in the 1ray of revelation vs. moat/humility)

B/x aggro: Game 2/ -3 breakthrough,-1 reveillark,-1DR,-1FKZ/+4 Cov,+2 wispmare
Game 3/-3 breakthrough,-1reveillark,-1DR,-1FKZ/Side according to hate either +4 ancient grudge,+2 Cov/ Or +4 wispmare,+2 CoV

[Joe_C]

Ive done some limited testing with brainstorm in the deck. I dont think I would replace breakthrough entirely with them, but they are amazing going into your 2nd turn after playing imp or tribe and dredging for a ton during your upkeep. Games 2 and 3 they are superior to study.... its worth me testing more for sure

[andrew77]

Ive done some limited testing with brainstorm in the deck. I dont think I would replace breakthrough entirely with them, but they are amazing going into your 2nd turn after playing imp or tribe and dredging for a ton during your upkeep. Games 2 and 3 they are superior to study.... its worth me testing more for sure

I agree that running a mix of lets say 4 brainstorms/2 breakthrough would be pretty sweet, but that creates a few problems...

1- Your discard outlets drop quite a bit. Even if you manage to run 4 imps/4 tribes, all you will have to go with that would be a total of 4 therpies and studys combined. This would probably mean either 4 therapy/0 study or 3/1 and therapy is really weak discard. I really think 10 discard outlets are needed besides therapy at the very least.

2- in games 2 and 3 the breakthroughs are almost guaranteed to come out. Since game 1 is almost always a bye, why bother running breakthrough when it will rarely be needed.

I have also been running a second undiscovered paradise over the citadel and I have been quite happy with this.

[Joe_C]

I agree that running a mix of lets say 4 brainstorms/2 breakthrough would be pretty sweet, but that creates a few problems...

1- Your discard outlets drop quite a bit. Even if you manage to run 4 imps/4 tribes, all you will have to go with that would be a total of 4 therpies and studys combined. This would probably mean either 4 therapy/0 study or 3/1 and therapy is really weak discard. I really think 10 discard outlets are needed besides therapy at the very least.

2- in games 2 and 3 the breakthroughs are almost guaranteed to come out. Since game 1 is almost always a bye, why bother running breakthrough when it will rarely be needed.

I have also been running a second undiscovered paradise over the citadel and I have been quite happy with this.

Actually I am doing a split between study/brainstorm/ breakthrough. Im not settled on my counts yet, but games 2/3 the studies come out and so do the breakthroughs, I may do a 3 brainstorm, 3 study, 2 breakthrough. I havent made anything definite yet.

Here is what Im playing at the moment:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tarnished Citadel

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Grave troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
2 Breakthrough
3 Cabal therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Narcomoeba
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot
2 Brainstorm

SB:
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestor's Chosen
3 Wispmare
3 Firestorm
1 Inkwell Leviatian

Tis blend is working well for me, as brainstorm is great-but best in only a few situations, dropping them to 2 is testing well for me at the moment.

[GGoober]

Why don't we use Null Rod? It seems like a house against BOTH Crypt and Relic, which are the main problems of the deck.

Also, Null Rod stops ANT's pre and post-ANT mana, making them turns slower to cast ANT, and then cast an answer off non-artifact mana.

My experience is that Null Rod is a heavily underrated card. It does so much in Legacy:

Shuts down Crypt/Relic/EE/Top
Shuts down affinity
Shuts down pre and post-ANT mana for ANT.
Does not affect this deck in any way. I'll probably run 3 Null Rods, and 3 Grudges in the SB, and 4 Chains, and maybe 2 Rays.

Just a thought.

[1maarten1]

Why don't we use Null Rod? It seems like a house against BOTH Crypt and Relic, which are the main problems of the deck.

Also, Null Rod stops ANT's pre and post-ANT mana, making them turns slower to cast ANT, and then cast an answer off non-artifact mana.

My experience is that Null Rod is a heavily underrated card. It does so much in Legacy:

Shuts down Crypt/Relic/EE/Top
Shuts down affinity
Shuts down pre and post-ANT mana for ANT.
Does not affect this deck in any way. I'll probably run 3 Null Rods, and 3 Grudges in the SB, and 4 Chains, and maybe 2 Rays.

Just a thought.

Obviously you didnt read the posts before the latest ones :wink: It was included in almost every list, but we started dropping it for Peedles, and in my case Gargadons which totally rock btw :laugh:
I'd advise you to read through the whole thread :laugh:

~Maarten

[GGoober]

I read from 16, which was where the debate started. The reason it was dropped, which hasn't seem a finalized argument was that Needle hit more than just artifacts i.e. creatures with sac ability (although M10 post rules will reduce their popularity). Another issue was Null Rod can't be easily casted with 2 mana against wastelands.dec, but aside from that, isn't Null Rod THE answer for the decks' problems?

I also run Gargadons, kudos for Parcher's invention. It's amazing against everything, giving another win-condition.

[1maarten1]

I read from 16, which was where the debate started. The reason it was dropped, which hasn't seem a finalized argument was that Needle hit more than just artifacts i.e. creatures with sac ability (although M10 post rules will reduce their popularity). Another issue was Null Rod can't be easily casted with 2 mana against wastelands.dec, but aside from that, isn't Null Rod THE answer for the decks' problems?

I also run Gargadons, kudos for Parcher's invention. It's amazing against everything, giving another win-condition.

true, I think its a combination of people cutting down citadels and starting to play paradises so its not as often you have 2 lands and play rod since you want to be dreadging by then. Just test it and run it if it works for you :wink: because it does work well when it lands.

[GGoober]

Yupp, hitting two lands in Dredge is a bitch sometimes, not to mention wasteland. My meta doesn't run much wastelands except for 1 Deadguy deck so Null Rod maybe ideal. Not to mention that it shuts off Vials for tribal decks that also board in Crypts/Relics, and shuts off Top/EE/Crypts/Relic for control decks, further stopping top from digging for answers and stopping EE on zombie tokens.

Seems ideal, but I can understand if the meta is filled with Wastelands, it's going to sit in hand doing nothing while you hope to topdeck lands.

[jimirynk]

The main reason I don't run nullrod/needle/gargadon is they are all in fact answers, but we are playing the most aggresive deck in magic and I'm not going to mulligan to find a slow answer.

Run grudge explode turn 2 attack their hand if they play turn 1 relic or cypt make them blow it early with grudge.

@brainstorm.
I guess people post board looking to find needle/nullrod/gargadon it might be good but I feel like their is stronger cards that could be in those spots.

I have toyed with the thought of 8 imp effects to really help you games 2-3 I ran the 4 tribe for a while in my board but only ever sided it in vs gobs/slight.

List is just very tight right now do to lark, I'm just going to cost the next 4-5 torns I go to with the list I am playing now till m10 comes in.

[bum_man]

@sideboard cards

Comparing these cards is very difficult because they all function very differently. Grudge, Needle and Null rod are all answers. Needle and Null Rod are preventive answers. They flat-out stop the hate card from ever functioning, it becomes a factor for the rest of the game. Between the two I play needle because its easier to cast, if you have tried testing null rod and pithing needle, you'll observe that there more times that you can't cast null rod and wished it was a needle than the times that you wish your needle was a null rod. Needle is just not as dead as much compared to null rod.
Grudge and the like are reactive answers, cards that react to a threat already in the board, it has its merits but the problem is, even if you forced your opponent to break the hate card with grudge, the fact of the matter is, your graveyard is still removed. This is counter-intuitive because preventing that from happening is the whole point of running anti-hate cards in the first place. You often don't have time to build-up your graveyard again, that is why I don't like running grudges explicitly to answer artifact hate cards.

Greater Gargadon is different though, its not an answer. Its a fall back plan. It gives you one more effective way to win through hate without making use of the graveyard. It generally gives the deck a new way of winning that generally doesn't care about hate. Hopefully, given the high density of ways to win that your opponent is most of the time unable to answer to all at the same time, you will more or less overwhelm them, hopefully all the way to victory.

To which is better, for is all up to playstyle, not everyone pilots and sideboards the same way, so generally what card is used is all up to what card is the pilot most comfortable running. Im trying to get my hands on some greater gargadons, and ill try testing them, they are very interesting additions imo.

@Brainstorm

From my experience, splitting cards is never good because it weakens the cards altogether. Splitting brainstorm into the deck, careful study and breakthrough become very ineffective. Drawing into them become very inconsitent, this is something that the deck doesn't really want more of. Imo, its either cut on of the three cards altogether and just run study and brainstorm or any two together, the cards become more effective that way. Brainstorm is a card with potential, something I will test on in a few days. I'll test if the return to the top of the library part of BS is better than the one more draw and discard in breakthrough. Right now, BS seems iffy.

EDIT: Played with brainstorms and didn't like it, its too situational for me, dumping cards into the graveyard is better than putting some back in the library even post-board. It seems to make games slow especially post-board when the point of the deck is two stop hate cards then combo ftw.

[andrew77]

A few points I would like to make.

I don't think 4 imps and 4 tribe's are needed unless you are running brainstorm. I also advocate a full set of brainstorms since they have so many uses.

I think gargadon is aweful since it just deviates from your dredge plan. It isn't great because people still leave in creature removal for ichorids and will only slow you down. Why weaken the deck by going in other directions? Also if you really wanted to run gargadons why not also run 4 goyfs in the side? Then you could almost go completely aggro.

Also on brainstorm. Most of you will sideboard out breakthrough if you are running it over brainstorm. Well if you run brainstorms you gain a very strong card in games 2/3. It has the ability to let you dredge 3 times, but can also dig for your answers.

[bum_man]

I think gargadon is aweful since it just deviates from your dredge plan. It isn't great because people still leave in creature removal for ichorids and will only slow you down. Why weaken the deck by going in other directions? Also if you really wanted to run gargadons why not also run 4 goyfs in the side? Then you could almost go completely aggro.
Deviating from the Dredge Plan is exactly the point of running gargadons. It gives you one more way to win the game, more importantly, its a plan that doesn't use the graveyard. You can combo, they can stop that, zombie and ichorid beats along with gargadon, if not attack with gargadon alone. 4 Stps are the most common removal this deck will face, more often than not, those will hit ichorids to avoid the ichorid recursion plan. If they save it for gargadon, you can kill them with ichorid recurssions and zombies. Keeping the threat density high because of a variety of threats that require different ways of handling isn't as bad as it sounds. Also, in essence, you don't weaken the deck since the deck does slow down because breakthrough come out post-board, the dredge plan is still as good as it would post-board generally, but now you have the gargadon fall back plan. Post-board the dredge plan isn't as fast and effective as it could be because of hate, so deviating from it isn't a bad idea. Gargadons are better than goyfs in this case because goyfs are still gy based, and you have to cast it, gargadon is suspended then you try to combo-off, at some point when your opponent has spent its resources to stop that from happening, gargadon comes out to finish the job.


Also on brainstorm. Most of you will sideboard out breakthrough if you are running it over brainstorm. Well if you run brainstorms you gain a very strong card in games 2/3. It has the ability to let you dredge 3 times, but can also dig for your answers.
Yes, it does dredge for 3 and digs if necessary, but the problem is when you don't find what your looking for in the 3 cards, since you have to put back two cards, it delays you because it will take two more turns before you see a new card. Brainstorm isn't as effective in digging for answers without shuffle effects. Unlike breakthrough or study which draws and discards garbage not need, you dig deeper into the deck, thus filtering it more. More or less, you'd want the answer to be in your opening grip rather than hoping to draw into it mid-game since you'd be planning to answer the hate then go-off with the combo early in the game.

[jimirynk]

Also on brainstorm. Most of you will sideboard out breakthrough if you are running it over brainstorm. Well if you run brainstorms you gain a very strong card in games 2/3. It has the ability to let you dredge 3 times, but can also dig for your answers.

If I didn't side out the breakthrough/brainstorm spot I would have to side out better g2/3 cards like study.

@ gargadon
I have tested this to the point where I asked myself why am I weakening my game plan?
Blue deck are almost bye for this deck why bring in 8 cards when 4 was working?
How are you guys even fitting them in your board?
Are you throwing both the dredge and combo match up??
You need a solid 4 cards of hate in the board vs. either match up or your going to get blown out.

[andrew77]

If I didn't side out the breakthrough/brainstorm spot I would have to side out better g2/3 cards like study.


Thats the thing though, you don't actually need to take better cards out. In most matchups you will have some cards that become much weaker and should come out. For example cephalid sage comes out very often. With it you can cut the third dread returns. In other games a therapy or fkz can come out. A tireless tribe can also be cut against some matchups or an ichorid. Basically there's almost always something you can cut that isn't as good as what you are bringing in.

On gargadon, it is just bad. You are deviating from your game plan for a very succeptable alternative. Why not just bring in very powerful answers?

[Elfrago]

Has anyone seen this?


Burning Inquiry R
Sorcery C
Each player draws three cards, then discards three cards at random.
Jariad burned the midnight oil, burned through scroll after scroll, and then burned down his laboratory.
Zoltan Boros & Gabor Szikszai

An Ancestral Recall with no real drawback for this deck might have some potential.

[Joe_C]

Has anyone seen this?


Burning Inquiry R
Sorcery C
Each player draws three cards, then discards three cards at random.
Jariad burned the midnight oil, burned through scroll after scroll, and then burned down his laboratory.
Zoltan Boros & Gabor Szikszai

An Ancestral Recall with no real drawback for this deck might have some potential.

The discard "random" cards part is a - for me. LED dredge may like this better, keeping cards in hand is what this deck likes to do unless you are going to win.

Been testing with 4 tribe/4 Pimp and dont think i will turn back ever again. Resolving one of either makes life very hard for your opponent and makes it easier to recover from relic/crypt

[bum_man]

Blue deck are almost bye for this deck why bring in 8 cards when 4 was working?
How are you guys even fitting them in your board?
Are you throwing both the dredge and combo match up??
You need a solid 4 cards of hate in the board vs. either match up or your going to get blown out.
You generally side gargadons in instead of anti-hate, so instead of focusing on stop them stop you, you play out your combo while gargadon is suspended and waiting to come into play. Its all about raising so much ways to win that your opponent gets overwhelmed for the lose.

Who the hell boards anything in for the dredge mirror? Its a wasted slot because for often than not, you will be the only dredge deck in most tournaments. If there is another one, there is a very low chance of ever facing him because if you aren't hated to hell, then he has been hated to hell, the chances of you guys facing each other in the swiss brackets and even in the top 8 playoffs is so little that sideboarding is not necessary. In the case of combo, chalice probably is the most effective sb for the match-up. This is a metagame call, if your meta has lots of combo then its good, if 1 to 2 combo is there it useless because, there are very little chances you face him especially with all the countertop decks around.

With this deck you don't pack in sideboard cards to beat every single deck that you think is a hard match-up especially if you don't expect it to come in large numbers. Sideboarding should be focused more on making the deck's marginal match-ups good or its good match-ups great especially against most of the field you'll be playing in.


Thats the thing though, you don't actually need to take better cards out. In most matchups you will have some cards that become much weaker and should come out. For example cephalid sage comes out very often. With it you can cut the third dread returns. In other games a therapy or fkz can come out. A tireless tribe can also be cut against some matchups or an ichorid. Basically there's almost always something you can cut that isn't as good as what you are bringing in.
Cutting therapy and tribe in lieu of making brainstorm work is useless, it'll just disrupt the decks balance between draw and discard more than it already is, it will just make the deck more inconsistent. You can't cut FKZ except vs slow blue because it wins you games now. You usually don't cut all your breakthroughs out because it gives explosiveness needed to win quickly after answering hate. You don't cut ichorid unless you're up against combo, which in any case brainstorm would suck more because its merits won't matter and the explosiveness and sheer drawing power given by breakthrough is very much a winning factor. In most cases, you just sideboard out breakthrough slot because its the most expendable slot in the deck. Its there when you need speed and goes out when you need to give-up speed in lieu of answers. There are no other slots that you can take out that doesn't make the deck suck more in lieu of brainstorm.


On gargadon, it is just bad. You are deviating from your game plan for a very succeptable alternative. Why not just bring in very powerful answers?
Like I said earlier, you are not deviationg from the gameplan, you're just adding one more gameplan in your arsenal, all of which are more than capable of winning you games. You can easily sb in 3 answers along with two gargadons in worse case scenarios. This deck is easily the best combo deck in the format because it wins fast in a hella lot of other ways, the only drawback is its dependency of the graveyard. Given this, tell me why adding 1 more way of putting pressure on your opponent/winning and deviating the decks dependency on the graveyard, not good???

[jimirynk]

With this deck you don't pack in sideboard cards to beat every single deck that you think is a hard match-up especially if you don't expect it to come in large numbers. Sideboarding should be focused more on making the deck's marginal match-ups good or its good match-ups great especially against most of the field you'll be playing in.


Why would I WASTE valueble sb slots on my good MU's?
I win those already, that's what makes them good match ups.

@the best combo hate.
Its been a toss up for me between unmask,chant,chalice,leyline as the 4 last spots in my board.

[bum_man]

Why would I WASTE valueble sb slots on my good MU's?
I win those already, that's what makes them good match ups.
Success with the deck isn't just about winning match-ups, its all about winning matches consistently. We all know this deck can win, the problem is how to keep it winning on a consistent basis. It has worked for me so far but the way I see this, it would be a better formula for winning and achieving success with the deck by making good match-ups (which is most of the field), great match-ups rather than making bad match-ups (small part of the field) relatively good match-ups.

[jimirynk]

Success with the deck isn't just about winning match-ups, its all about winning matches consistently. We all know this deck can win, the problem is how to keep it winning on a consistent basis. It has worked for me so far but the way I see this, it would be a better formula for winning and achieving success with the deck by making good match-ups (which is most of the field), great match-ups rather than making bad match-ups (small part of the field) relatively good match-ups.

Congratulations you figured out how to play magic, good for you:tongue:

[Joe_C]

Ive tried running brainstorm and I just cant bring myself to play it anymore. Its good in too few situations for me to want it in my maindeck. Instead I am running 4 tribe and 4 therapy, 4 ichorid, and just 2 breakthrough. Landing tribe or imp is just so good against just about everything out there having 8 permanent discard effects is pure gravy

[Parcher]

Congratulations you figured out how to play magic, good for you:tongue:

So let me get this straight. You mouth off completely incorrectly and most likely with zero actual experience about how bad an idea is. Then, when all proven evidence, and decade-old proven theory shows how baseless and lame your assumptions are, you make a snide comment insulting the person that does so; attempting to belittle their correct argument to take attention away from how obviously wrong you were.

Why even bother with a site that actually attempts to improve the quality of Legacy decks and promote the Legacy format?

[jimirynk]

So let me get this straight. You mouth off completely incorrectly and most likely with zero actual experience about how bad an idea is. Then, when all proven evidence, and decade-old proven theory shows how baseless and lame your assumptions are, you make a snide comment insulting the person that does so; attempting to belittle their correct argument to take attention away from how obviously wrong you were.

Why even bother with a site that actually attempts to improve the quality of Legacy decks and promote the Legacy format?

1. I have posted more testing results/idea's then almost anyone one this thread. Besides you joe C.

2. I have tested every sb strategy this deck has.

3. I felt that the statement bum-man made was incorrect about just tossing our bad match ups..

Bum man even stated that:good match-ups (which is most of the field)
If we have a good MU vs. most of the field why not devote 4 slots in the board to give us game vs. every MU. The great thing about Ichorid is that our worst match up *combo* usually doesn't pack dredge hate. SO WHY TOSS THIS MU???

4. My post was sarcasm trying to state that bum man in fact does not know how to play magic. My bad bro.

@Parcher.
I respect you attempt to further progress LED dredge but please do not come to the LED less thread simply to throw gas on the fire of a 2 post dispute when you don't even post on this thread, or at least for the last 14 or so pages that I have been posting on.
So "Why even bother with a site that actually attempts to improve the quality of Legacy decks and promote the Legacy format?"


@Bum man
When I talk about a MU I consider it good or bad based upon the consistently of me beating it best 2/3 not just game ones.
I think this is were we differ in are posts?
Is this correct?

I still think this deck is to aggressive to side in an "answer" that you have to mulligan to.
I have tested gargadon vs. uwx landstill with decent results, but I already beat landstill without boarding them.. So I'm going to have to pass on the GG tech untill testing shows that I need more.
BTW I love you.:tongue:

On another note all bickering aside....

Has anyone tested vs. combo with chalice?
I mean I know chalice at 0 can slow them down, but with this deck thriving off of 1 mana cost spells is their a superior sb card vs this MU?
Opinions?

[bum_man]

Bum man even stated that:good match-ups (which is most of the field)
If we have a good MU vs. most of the field why not devote 4 slots in the board to give us game vs. every MU. The great thing about Ichorid is that our worst match up *combo* usually doesn't pack dredge hate. SO WHY TOSS THIS MU???
I said the deck has a good match-up versus most of the field because there is very little chance that an opposing deck would beat it without using graveyard based disruption. Then post-board, they side-in against us tipping the match-up in their favor. We then sideboard stuff to tip it back in our deck's favor. We already have slots that give us game vs all match-ups post-board, these are what we call "anti-hate."
My point is, why bother putting in cards for bad match-ups that you won't face alot, not to mention these cards are dead versus most of the field, when you can just devote slots to improving the match-ups that you do expect to face alot. Let's say to you pack-in CotVs for combo. In a tournament, it is unlikely that you'll be able to use them because for often than not, coutertop has already more or less kept them from getting into the higher brackets, and with one or two combo decks showing up once in a while there is very little chance to face them at all. There is absolutely no point in packing-in things for bad MUs that you won't expect to face anyway.
The logic I'm following is the same logic why I play Non-LED Dredge compared to LED Dredge, its all about being hella better at more match-ups over being slightly better in less relevant match-ups due to its speed and explosiveness.

If you really have experience playing with this deck, you'd know that this deck's worst match-up is vs prison type decks and not combo. Combo decks don't have to board-in graveyard hate when they can just win before we do. I've played combo they can just flat out win before we even think of what to do with the cards in our hand. If you think combo is such a big problem why don't you just play LED Dredge, it has a faster goldfish and completely goldfishes decks that don't have graveyard hate.



@Bum man
When I talk about a MU I consider it good or bad based upon the consistently of me beating it best 2/3 not just game ones.
I think this is were we differ in are posts?
Is this correct?
I believe so, I was referring to this deck beating match-ups consistently in every game you play them and not just how many times you happen to squeeze out a round win versus them.


I still think this deck is to aggressive to side in a "answer" that you have to mulligan to.I have tested gargadon vs. uwx landstill with decent results, but I already beat landstill with out boarding them??:confused:
BTW I love you.:tongue:
You should try versus testing decks that Dredge doesn't really have a great match-up already because I doubt you have done so. Especially blue variants that has fast clocks (ie. Tarmogoyf, Phyrexian Dreadnought, etc.)



Has anyone tested vs. combo with chalice?
I mean I know chalice at 0 can slow them down, but with this deck thriving off of 1 mana cost spells is their a superior sb card vs this MU?
Opinions?
For the deck's sake... Chalice is good vs AdNauseam decks because it kills all their 0cc mana sources post-AdN. This forces them to chain rituals to be able to have some mana floating after AdN. It kills their IGG Loop too. This slows them down, giving you enough time to therapy away their grips, wipe aways, rituals and win.

[jimirynk]

If you really have experience playing with this deck, you'd know that this deck's worst match-up is vs prison type decks and not combo.


Not true...
If you are talking strictly game1's then yes they are hard, but with the correct sb you should not have problems with such slow decks.
But combo can simply win turn one or turn 2 if not disrupted in some way(therapy is usually to slow).
But prison decks i.e. enchantress, white stacks, dragonstompy, have such small turnouts and are so inconsistent that I feel like I have such a higher chance playing vs. combo.
So I think having Sb cards vs combo is a viable idea for this deck.




I believe so, I was referring to this deck beating match-ups consistently in every game you play them and not just how many times you happen to squeeze out a round win versus them.


I said if you can beat them 2/3 meaning playing full games with board, I'm not talking about just three games..
It really seems like you just want to argue more than actually discuss anything about improving this deck.




You should try versus testing decks that Dredge doesn't really have a great match-up already because I doubt you have done so. Especially blue variants that has fast clocks (ie. Tarmogoyf, Phyrexian Dreadnought, etc.)


Blue is the closest thing to a bye this deck has, except merfolk but the MU after board is in our favor.
Blue decks are to slow, very easy to hurt with therapy, and their best turn 2 play vs. us is goyf (dreadnaught in verrry little situations).
But our deck should win turn 2-3 so why is turn 2 goyf game1 so good?
On another side note dreadstill is not a big deck in american metagames..
I play vs. more combo than dreadstill at any tournament.
But before you respond back with your angry counterpoint, dreadstill is a good MU for me, I side in 4 grudges and xCoV.
If you find that dreadstill is a hard MU I suggest running 4 ancient grudges.



For the deck's sake... Chalice is good vs AdNauseam decks because it kills all their 0cc mana sources post-AdN. This forces them to chain rituals to be able to have some mana floating after AdN. It kills their IGG Loop too. This slows them down, giving you enough time to therapy away their grips, wipe aways, rituals and win.

Yeaa I've been leaning towards chalice.




What does your board look like bum man?
My side board is:
4 ancient grudge
4 chain of vapor
2 ray of revaluation
1 ancestors chosen
4 ???? (leaning towards chalice)

My sideboard only contains very broad choices that can help improve any MU.
Do you have narrow answers vs. the decks you plan on seeing?
I don't get where this argument is coming from..
It feels like we just have 2 different approaches to playing the same deck.

[bum_man]

Not true...
If you are talking strictly game1's then yes they are hard, but with the correct sb you should not have problems with such slow decks.
But prison decks i.e. enchantress, white stacks, dragonstompy, have such small turnouts and are so inconsistent that I feel like I have such a higher chance playing vs. combo. It is true that combo decks have much higher turn-outs than prison decks, but relatively they make-up relatively a small amount of the meta (mine, at least) that they only merit 3 of my sb slots. These are my metagame slots which i'll go to later.
Those decks are in fact slow but the problem is they have so much ways to stop us. Prison effects, Suppresion Fields, Magus of the Tabernacle, Glowrider, Elephant Grass, Moat, Solitary Confinement etc. are all capable to handling the deck's threats and they all come in play at the same time that the deck gets overwhelmed.



What does your board look like bum man?
I mean my side board is:
4 ancient grudge
4 chain of vapor
2 ray of revaluation
1 ancestors chosen
4 ???? (leaning towards chalice)
I mean my sideboard only contains very broad choices that can help improve any MU.
I play with:
3 Pithing Needles - Don't have a 4th
3 Chain of Vapors - Given
2 Wispmare - Used to be 3 but since I haven't been seeing enchantments, I cut 1 and kept 2 for good measure.
2 Ancient Grudge - These compliment Needles and also kills off naughts
2 Firestorm - metagame slot, can turn into serenity, or chalices
1 Ancestor's Chosen - Haven't used this so far, but still nice to have ready somehow
1 Woodfall Primus - Another metagame slot, ive lost to propaganda effects for quite sometime, i'll be expecting them to compliment gy hate since i play in a very aggro meta.
1 Ray of Revelation - For propaganda effects too

I haven't been seeing LotV for sometime now, so I basically tuned my sb to handle multiple forms of artifact hate, propaganda effects, and some help against aggro. I tested vs aggro decks a few days ago and I found 3 md Darkblasts, 2 Firestorm and Reveillark very good against these match-ups. Been thinking about adding a Firestorm but I can't find space as of now.

OT: has anyone tried Eternal Witness in a Non-LED build or is it really too much a big investment to Return Witness and not necessarilly win the game right then and there?

[andrew77]

I have tested witness, but do not run it myself since I am runnign brainstorms over breakthrough and it has no real benefit over sage. In LED dredge it is good, but in LEDless it's uses are much more limited so I would still run sage over it.

Also on gargadon. The card is terrible. I really don't understand why people play it. Oh sure its a cute trick, but we can play much better cards instead of wasting slots on gargadon. I can't imagine any matchup against which I would side in gargadon wether i'm running LEDless dredge or LED dredge. The card is just trash.

Also on chalice of the void. It is a better option than unmask, but isn't worth more than 2 slots imo. Getting multiples of it in your opening isn't all that great and combo decks are slower than they were in the past so we can still race them with the help of a well timed therapy.

[Joe_C]

honestly, I dont think the combo match up is worth making slots in the board for. We will either get lucky and they have a slow hand and we steamroll them game 1. Games 2/3 bring in ancestor's chosen and hope to get him into play ASAP to get way ahead in life. To make the matchup even close to 50/50we need chalice and unmask in our board. Which sorta screws other matchups. I have just forsaken winning that battle in favor of making the other matches at least in our favor after boarding. My sb:

4 Ancient Grudge
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Firestorm(this is just so amazing)
3 Wispmare
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Inkwell leviathan(my become bogardan hellkite-nice against gobbos and merfolk)

[sunshine]

OT: has anyone tried Eternal Witness in a Non-LED build or is it really too much a big investment to Return Witness and not necessarilly win the game right then and there?

I've been running EWitness instead of Sage, but my list in general looks a little weird run now. More and more often I've found that I need to slow dredge - even in game one which EWitness facilitates much better than sage. Also it allows me to play one-ofs (that don't dredge) in the main board and reliably have access to them. These versions play so many lands that if I really want to have the Sage effect I can just recur Breakthrough.

[Joe_C]

I havent seen it mentioned here before I dont think, has anyone tried Reya Dawnbringer? Allows free ichorid/troll/ recursions every upkeep..... worth a try? or danger of cool things?

Im back to running null rod in my sb. The fact that it hoses combo to an extent makes it even better. Grudge is good, but there is too much trinket mage into crypt=srew me. I may put a few grudges in along side them.

[jimirynk]

@JoeC.
Vs. decks with trinket mage tool box you always name trinket mage as your first blind name.

[Joe_C]

@JoeC.
Vs. decks with trinket mage tool box you always name trinket mage as your first blind name.

this is normally my strategy, but given they can hide mage away with brainstorm, therapy just isnt enough. Null Rod is a permanent answer and it is usually not expected by the opponent at all. Most players will board out spell snare or even force against us, so it makes it even stronger

[jimirynk]

I do agree on how strong null rod is but say you side in 4, draw your hand and its a god hand, but no null rod do you keep?
Can you keep?

I love grudge as an answer because you have to mulligan to a good hand with this deck and if you need to mulligan to a good hand/answer you might just beat yourself.

[Joe_C]

I do agree on how strong null rod is but say you side in 4, draw your hand and its a god hand, but no null rod do you keep?
Can you keep?

I love grudge as an answer because you have to mulligan to a good hand with this deck and if you need to mulligan to a good hand/answer you might just beat yourself.

since i run 4 putrid imp and 4 tireless tribe I can slow play it until I get an opportunity to dredge for the win or draw into null rod. I have won countless games on the backs of stinkweed/ putrid/moeba beats. I may splash a few grudges in the board as well to compliment the rods, maybe a 3/2 rod/grudge split.

Also, being that rods wouldnt be in the deck until g2/3 the combo is usually boarded out, so a god hand would be an imp or a tribe, 1-2 lands, and a therapy and a dredger.

[Joe_C]

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise


4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Grave troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
2 Breakthrough
4 Cabal therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Narcomoeba
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot


SB:
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Null Rod
1 Ancestor's Chosen
3 Wispmare
3 Firestorm
1 Inkwell Leviatian
1 Ray of Revelation


Im thinking I am settled on this list. This is performing well for me. Not sure if I want bogardan hellkite over leviathan since it can send 5 to the dome and win the game right then and there, best decks it would come in against run stifle so maybe not worth the risk....

Thoughts?

[andrew77]

Your maindeck is almost identical to mine. My list has these changes...

-2 breakthrough
+2 brainstorm

-1 golgari thug
-1 dread returns
+1 ichorid
+1 cabal therapy

-1 undiscovered paradise
+1 cephalid coliseum

Cutting the dreturns has worked very well for me and my only concern with your list would be not having enough draw power to win games quickly. In all honesty I would love to be able to fit in another breakthrough in my list, but I don't think I can cut anything without screwing up the decks consistancy. I would also definately fit the 4th ichorid back in the maindeck.

Here is my sb too...

2 chain of vapor
2 ray of revelation
3 ancient grudge
2 firestorm
1 darkblast
3 chalice
2 open slots

[beastman]

You cut the dread returns? How do you justify that? That gets rid of almost all of your fast win conditions.

[andrew77]

You cut the dread returns? How do you justify that? That gets rid of almost all of your fast win conditions.

Assuming that a fast win requires a number of dredges, odds are that you will hit one of your dreturns by then. If for some reason you don't, you can just destroy your opponents hand via therapy and win a turn or two later.

[beastman]

LOL, I thought you meant you cut all of them.

[Joe_C]

Assuming that a fast win requires a number of dredges, odds are that you will hit one of your dreturns by then. If for some reason you don't, you can just destroy your opponents hand via therapy and win a turn or two later.

I don't know about dropping to 2 returns. I feel like having the 3rd is a nice security blanket to have in case you need to get a troll out in play to block and fill the board with more tokens. Especially game2/3 where returning a troll is a really strong play. I havent had any speed problems with my build, if I wanted to win quick I would just play the LED version.

[jimirynk]

This is the list I've been screwing around with:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Grave troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Narcomoeba
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot



The main problem I have been having lately is my opening hand will be 1-2 imp,1-2 lands,1-3 dredgers.
I don't want to mulligan do to the fact that I know I'm going to have a imp resolve but then i just go dredge pass.

So I want to fit in either the 4th breakthrough OR
now here me out on this, cut all the breakthroughs and add another land or two and add 2-3 deep analysis giving you draw power even if your hand had no draw in it.

[Joe_C]

This is the list I've been screwing around with:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Grave troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Narcomoeba
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot



The main problem I have been having lately is my opening hand will be 1-2 imp,1-2 lands,1-3 dredgers.
I don't want to mulligan do to the fact that I know I'm going to have a imp resolve but then i just go dredge pass.

So I want to fit in either the 4th breakthrough OR
now here me out on this, cut all the breakthroughs and add another land or two and add 2-3 deep analysis giving you draw power even if your hand had no draw in it.

Im not sold on deep analysis in the nonLED lists. We are more likely to take damage from city over a long game and the 3 life for a draw 2 and no discard effect seems iffy. I wouldnt actually change your list at all man, I only run 2 breakthrough in favor of thug #4, other than that we are really close to playing identical lists. The third breakthrough is nice to have at times, but I hate playing too risky with it....

[andrew77]

I don't think you would have room to add 2+ lands and deep analysis. If you just want to add the 4th breakthrough though the only cards I can see you cutting for it are dreturns or therapy.

[Joe_C]

I don't think you would have room to add 2+ lands and deep analysis. If you just want to add the 4th breakthrough though the only cards I can see you cutting for it are dreturns or therapy.

Or pushing 1 Ichorid to the board in favor of trying to blast out the turn 2 breakthrough into win.

<400th POST!!!>

[jimirynk]

The list would go through some changes if I was to fit in DA.
But me being in college even in the summer I don't have the time to test such a change.
The 4 breakthrough would be sweet but I'm going to find room for the lark back in my md for hadley because its not m10 rules yet..


<106th POST!!!>

@Andrew
Go to hadley man I want to see 3 ledless list in top 8 lol.

[Joe_C]

The list would go through some changes if I was to fit in DA.
But me being in college even in the summer I don't have the time to test such a change.
The 4 breakthrough would be sweet but I'm going to find room for the lark back in my md for hadley because its not m10 rules yet..




I tried playing with lark, but didnt want to use up the slot main, and I think leviathan is just better as a board fattie than just about anything

[jimirynk]

I tried playing with lark, but didnt want to use up the slot main, and I think leviathan is just better as a board fattie than just about anything

Lark is main only vs decks that remove your bridges, which I'm expecting a lot of fanatic and curse catcher at haldley.
I ran inkwell in my board, but every game I sided it in I won b4 I got to return it.

[Joe_C]

Lark is main only vs decks that remove your bridges, which I'm expecting a lot of fanatic and curse catcher at haldley.
I ran inkwell in my board, but every game I sided it in I won b4 I got to return it.

Maybe another return target isnt the way to go aside from Ancestor's Chosen in the board......Maybe another ray or something, maybe firestorm #4

[jimirynk]

My board right now is
1 chosen
4 grudge
2 ray
4 Cov
4 chalice/leyline

[Joe_C]

My board right now is
1 chosen
4 grudge
2 ray
4 Cov
4 chalice/leyline

I know its not heavily played in our area, but I dont feel comfortable dropping under 4 ways to nail leyline, I know you run chain, but that can just delay the problem, and we arent fast enough usually to guarantee a bounce/ I win next turn. I would think survival would be played at hadley so my board I plan on running:

3 Wispmare
2 Pithing Needle(faerie macabre, survival, shackles, before i get rod in play etc....)
3 Firestorm
1 Ancestor's Chosen
3 Null Rod
2 Ancient Grudge(this 3/2 split is working good)
1 Ray of Revelation

[andrew77]

I know its not heavily played in our area, but I dont feel comfortable dropping under 4 ways to nail leyline, I know you run chain, but that can just delay the problem, and we arent fast enough usually to guarantee a bounce/ I win next turn. I would think survival would be played at hadley so my board I plan on running:

3 Wispmare
2 Pithing Needle(faerie macabre, survival, shackles, before i get rod in play etc....)
3 Firestorm
1 Ancestor's Chosen
3 Null Rod
2 Ancient Grudge(this 3/2 split is working good)
1 Ray of Revelation

The real advantage of chain is that it is so versatile. If you were to bring in whispermare and ray guessing your opponent is siding in leylines and they aren't you just brought in 4 dead cards. Chain on the other hand can bounce crypts, fanatics and other problem cards at the end of your opponents turn before you go off. I do think you should have some dedicated enchantment removal though. I would say 2 rays/whispermares and 2/3 chain of vapor.

[Joe_C]

The real advantage of chain is that it is so versatile. If you were to bring in whispermare and ray guessing your opponent is siding in leylines and they aren't you just brought in 4 dead cards. Chain on the other hand can bounce crypts, fanatics and other problem cards at the end of your opponents turn before you go off. I do think you should have some dedicated enchantment removal though. I would say 2 rays/whispermares and 2/3 chain of vapor.

honestly I dont think I would expect them to run leyline unless I was facing the mirror match. I cant think of any teir deck that runs them in the board at all anymore. Most of the time i would put maybe 1-2 ray in for the 2nd game and definitely put in rod/grudge. If they drop a turn 1 leyline I try to fight it out and cast ray, for game 3 I bring in all my enchantment hate. Seeing crypt/relic is way more common and I run 3 rod, 2 grudge, 2 needle to handle that.

Against some merfolk lists, they bring in propaganda against us so you need flashbackable spells to weed out their counter and you need answers to relic/crypt also. I board out alot of cards for this matchup

[Joe_C]

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise

With a tournament just around the corner. I am looking at my manabase and wondering: if wasteland is present in the meta, is this manabase going to be good enough? Should I run land #14 in the board or just maindeck it? I hate to take out anything from my maaindeck since it has been pretty consistent. The last few days before a tournament I always question the card quantities of a few things in the deck.

@jimirynk: you run no answer to creatures in your board aside from chain, how are your matchups against merfolk/zoo/goblins without a board cleaner? I may drop a firestorm for an extra land in my board, since I wont mull into a hand with firestorm anyways, although witness may make an appearance in my board for this weekend so I can snag back needles/rods etc....

[sunshine]

Dakmor Salvage has been testing well for me as a fourteenth land that doubles as dredger number thirteen in a pinch. The fact that it gives some additional help against Wasteland is very nice. I also like being able to keep two land hands and have the potential to cast Stinkweeds without using Witness to recur a land. I would not advocate the card in an LED version but it's testing well here.

[jimirynk]

@ joeC
Zoo after board can be hard. I side -3 breakthrough,-1fkz,1 therapy(the 5th spot I'm not 100% about)
+4 grudge,+1 chosen
This MU's all about getting 3 creatures on the field for DR as fast as possible.
This can be diffrent if they run path..
If you can DR chosen it should be game.
LARK MAKES THIS MU SO EASY...(probably going in my board/MD again)

Merfolk game one isn't that hard just don't walk a DR into daze/curecatch/force.
Relic MD can give you a headache..
I side: -3 breakthrough,-1fkz(if I lose game 1 I side in a 1 ray)Idk whats the smartest 5th card to sideout is.
+4 grudge


@firestorm
I mean I only side in x cards in any given matchup, which is generally 5.
This doesn't weaken your opening 7 or your dredges.
If I ran firestorm I would have to side out more relevant cards like tribe or study which are just simply better.


I might cut 1 therapy or tribe for a lark or a breakthrough.

[Joe_C]

Dakmor Salvage has been testing well for me as a fourteenth land that doubles as dredger number thirteen in a pinch. The fact that it gives some additional help against Wasteland is very nice. I also like being able to keep two land hands and have the potential to cast Stinkweeds without using Witness to recur a land. I would not advocate the card in an LED version but it's testing well here.

Usually when I care about having a land in play I need it to produce something besides black, and the fact that salvage comes into play tapped makes it something I dont want to see in my opening hand. I want my lands to do what I want when I need them, seems just a little to slow for my liking, but if it works for you Justin more power to ya

[sunshine]

Usually when I care about having a land in play I need it to produce something besides black, and the fact that salvage comes into play tapped makes it something I dont want to see in my opening hand. I want my lands to do what I want when I need them, seems just a little to slow for my liking, but if it works for you Justin more power to ya

I hear you man, and the CiPT line is very unfortunate. I will say though that there have been games where I would keep a 1 or 2 lander and need to slow dredge around crypt and relic where Salvage really shined (providing the additional mana source needed to get Thugh/Narcomoeba trickery online for example). Getting that second or even third source can be huge if you want to hard cast Thugs, Narcs, and Stinkweeds.

I'm not 100% on the card but it's my 14th land so I'm not as worried about it being my only mana source in a starting hand.

I have been liking the card but take that with a grain of salt since my list is rather slow in general.

[Joe_C]

I just had a strange idea pop into my head. I wont divulge the information until I can truly test it. If I like what I want to change in the deck I will play it this Saturday and hopefully come out a winner and have a good report to back it up.

[Joe_C]

If I had some more time to test the numbers I would consider making the changes I previously brought up, but from limited testing yesterday I do not feel it adds what I wanted to the deck, so I wont be revealing the changes at the tourney tomorrow.

So what Ichorid players will be in Hadley tomorrow?

[jimirynk]

Not going tomorrow due to my list being a little off..
It needs more draw Im putting the 4th breakthrough.
I might test with the each player draws 3 discards 3.
If their is room.

[Joe_C]

Not going tomorrow due to my list being a little off..
It needs more draw Im putting the 4th breakthrough.
I might test with the each player draws 3 discards 3.
If their is room.

thats a shame man..... I guess sunshine and myself will have to take down this tournament.....:wink:

[Joe_C]

Well, I took 9th :rolleyes: yesterday at Hadley <sorry scrumdogg for not realizing you got paired down and hosing you>

The List:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise


4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Grave troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
2 Breakthrough
4 Cabal therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Narcomoeba
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot


SB:
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Null Rod
1 Ancestor's Chosen
3 Wispmare
3 Firestorm
1 Bogardan Hellkite
2 Ray of Revelation

Here is a breakdown with some specifices and some afterthoughts:

Round 1: Nicholas Playing UGR Trash
G1:I win the die roll/kept opening 7 with tribe x2 and a coliseum, and a stinkweed
I lead with turn 1 tribe which sticks.He plays land, go. I dredge stinky on my draw step, play coliseum and activate it for another 14 card dredge and hit nothing(no moeba, no ichorid, no bridge), He plays nimble mongoose, pass. I dredge and hit a moeba and an ichorid to bring back next turn, he bolts moeba before my main phase(still no bridge). After this my notes get fuzzy, I start recurring Ichorid and finally hit bridge and take it down in a few turns.

G2: He plays land go. My hand is Imp, tribe x2, and 2 dredgers, a land, and a therapy=score. I walk my turn 1 Imp into daze as expected. He plays goose, go. I play another land, tribe-resolves, pitch a troll and play careful study-resolves- I hit 2 moebas off the dredge(hotness), I also got bridge and therapy into the yard and see myself winning shorlty unless he gains an army of men, so I sac a moeba to flashback therapy and get a zombie, naming goyf, which he has in hand. He draws another goyf off a EOT brainstorm, he plays it. I reanimate an Ichorid and I have 2 bridges in my grave at that point,I therapy him(intending on naming force) but it gets dazed. I swing in with my creatures and then dread return an 8/8 Troll which will win me the game the next 2 turns.

1-0-0

Round 2 Roddy with UW Slivers(note:flying creatures are a bitch)
I lost the die roll(mull to 6)
He plays land, aether vial:go. I play turn 1 Imp. He STP's my Imp during his turn(damn youz), I pitch a thug, ichorid, and a troll in resp. I reanimate ichorid, dredge for 6, play tribe:pass. EOT he brings in crystalline sliver, then winged sliver via vial on his turn, and plays standstill, swings for 2 in the air, pass. I start dredging and swinging on the ground, but those damn flying creatures are going to kill me faster than I can kill him since I run out of Ichorid fodder quickly, so I pop standstill by flashbacking therapy naming force, which gets forced, but I get a few tokens.So I try to go for the throat and try to push through a dread return that is hopefully bring back zealot to swing in for 9 total and leave him at 2 life to die to ichorid beats next turn, he drew another force off standstill. so it fails and I die to flying creatures since I am out of gas.

G2:(mull to 6). I keep a hand that is questionable, but dont want to mull to 5. I therapy myself naming troll. He goes turn 1 relic<ouch>. I dont draw any of my hate hosers and lose to flying slivers quickly.

1-1-0

Round 3: Jesse playing UG Merfolk
G1: Won die roll, kept opening 7.
I keep a good hand with some lands and tribes and dredgers. He lands a goyf, then another before I can get really going, but tribe holds 1 off.. But I get my land drops and actually hardcast Ichorid from my hand and start gaining zombie tokens and overwhelm him quickly after that.

G2: He gets turn 1 vial. I play careful study on my first turn and get things moving. He starts vialing in merfolk. I get beat for a few turns then play firestorm with x=4 tagetting his lord of atlantis, 2 adepts, and my moeba which puts me way ahead with 3 zombies on board and his side empty. He wastes my one land, then plays propaganda, and then drops another wasteland, then vials in a lord, I will die before I hit my 2nd land so I scoop.

G3: He hits the nuts, with force,wasteland, relic, me not getting to 2 lands to cast the null rod in my hand and I get pounded by blue men.

1-2-0

Round 4 Pete playing Tombstone(?)
lost roll, kept opening 7.
He plays land go. I play turn tribe. He plays land. Snuff Outs my tribe which I toss an ichorid, a thug, and a troll to in response. My turn I dredge some hotness and he will be dead in a turn or 2 so he scoops.

G2: He plays Leyline of the void, I have wispmare in my hand and ray or revelation. My turn I evoke mare and pass. He plays sinkhole on my land. I play another land, play putrid imp, pass. He plays pernicious dead. My upkeep I pitch ray and flashback it to nail deed. He lands a goyf and 2 hippies over the next few turns. I get an 11/11 troll in play and a ton of zombies and squeak it out with me at 1 life since he topdecks a land instead of a hate card.

2-2-0

Round 5: Alan (srumdogg) playing Imperial Painter
G1:I lose the roll. Kept opening 7
He plays turn 1 magus of the moon, ok, yeah that hurts. Then drops combo pcs on turn 3 which will rock my turn 4 so I scoop.

G2: Notes are fuzzy, but I know I land rod to keep his artifact foolishness at bay and his life does from 20 to 11 then to 1(I did something right apparently)

G3: He lands turn 1 3sphere but I have 2 lands and I draw a third so I play Imp on turn 4. He lands blood moon. I start dredging and playing ichorids from the grave. He lands blood moon, I firestorm his creatures( i fail to remember painter has toughness 3 and firestormed for x=2) so he lives but I outnumber him and end up winning.

So I finish in 9th place :frown:

As always it was a fun tournament, and I wish Kevin the best of luck in the future.

For future reference: Ancestor's chosen will probably be the only other return target I will keep in my board. I may want to increase my maindeck land count and run the 4th rod in my board. Other than that, I felt good about how the deck played.

edit: I did not win ONCE by reanimating zealot for the kill. Makes me think a slow rolling build like sunshine is working on may be quite effective. I won via Ichorid/zombie/troll beats all day.