[Deck] Elves Combo

[abel_lg]

...
I can't remember, did the elves list sideboard NO-Pro?

No, the list above didn't sideboard NO+Pro. This is the sideboard that list use:

Sideboard (15)
3 Imperious Perfect
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Heap Doll
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Dauntless Escort
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thoughtseize

I want to comment the Dauntless Escort... What do you think about this card on elves list (obviously in sideboard)? Not only combo elves, also aggro elves...

[Mr. Safety]

It seems like a decent answer to Engineered Explosives/Perish...but at 3 mana (and only 1 in the board) is it fast enough on the battlefield to make a difference? Three mana isn't a problem for elves to come up with, so I suppose it would get down turn 2 often enough to count.

I like the sideboarded Thoughtsiezes A LOT BETTER than Escort, and Gaddok Teeg takes care of Explosives.

*virtual shrug* There has to be a better option than a 3-drop creature, but I'm drawing a blank ATM.

[abel_lg]

And maybe will be a loss of time including City of Solitude in the SB? Three mana wouldn't be a problem to cast. Obvious than if we don't combo the same turn we cast City, the opponent is free to do in their turn whatever he want without reply, but it's a solution when we want to protect a elf we have in the hand ready to come into play and we need him to survive (or, for example, can help in a turn the opponent have a Stifle for our Glimpse but he haven't a counter).

[Mr. Safety]

What boggles my mind is that the guy using Mirror Entity wasn't using teck to untap after glimpse-ing. I have found that glimpse eats up ALL of your elves to tap for mana.

I toyed with To Arms! for a little while, running it alongside Mirror Entity. Untap all your dudes, draw a card for 1W, Mirror Entity alpha-strike FTW.

[abel_lg]

What boggles my mind is that the guy using Mirror Entity wasn't using teck to untap after glimpse-ing. ...
I toyed with To Arms! for a little while, running it alongside Mirror Entity. Untap all your dudes, draw a card for 1W, Mirror Entity alpha-strike FTW.

Also you have Vitalize in green, altough you don't draw a card... If you kill with Storm, it counts for the storm count also, and allows you to continue with the combo at these not-so-good hands.

Or Goblin Bombardment for a not so direct way for killing.

[k2thej]

If you are thinking of running city of solitude, I think leyline of lifeforce is strictly better. Sure, it's one more mana, but the point is obviously to start with it on the field. City can be countered, which makes it less effective. Leyline is very hard for control to deal with, especially if you board out glimpses and but it in and go aggro.

You def do not want to play non-creature spells that untap your guys. They slow down the combo and don't really help that much anyway. When you have 4 quirion ranger and 4 symbiote, and 4 nettle, you shouldn't have any problems with tapping out.

[abel_lg]

If you are thinking of running city of solitude, I think leyline of lifeforce is strictly better. Sure, it's one more mana, but the point is obviously to start with it on the field. City can be countered, which makes it less effective. Leyline is very hard for control to deal with, especially if you board out glimpses and but it in and go aggro.

You def do not want to play non-creature spells that untap your guys. They slow down the combo and don't really help that much anyway. When you have 4 quirion ranger and 4 symbiote, and 4 nettle, you shouldn't have any problems with tapping out.

I appreciate your point of view of Leyline vs City and I agree with all, but I see an extra utility in City which is it covers not only for counters, it covers you at all: if you begin to combo, your only limit are you and your deck, neither your rival in your turn. I think in some specific metagame would be better to have one.

About untapping elves I agree at all, is not necessary to include something to untap, but if is that what you want, best to have it in green than in white, also, in the specific situation he wants to untap the elves, draw a card would be counterproductive becase there are serious chances to spend the whole deck, and a Fog effect will ruin us. These concrete card is an example why I like to play City of Solitude instead Leyline, also having 2-3 City of Solitude is enough, but with Leyline you must include 4 to try to assure you initialy draw Leyline and begin the game with him, so a hand with more than one Leyline is more probable, a nasty chance.

[k2thej]

I appreciate your point of view of Leyline vs City and I agree with all, but I see an extra utility in City which is it covers not only for counters, it covers you at all: if you begin to combo, your only limit are you and your deck, neither your rival in your turn. I think in some specific metagame would be better to have one.

About untapping elves I agree at all, is not necessary to include something to untap, but if is that what you want, best to have it in green than in white, also, in the specific situation he wants to untap the elves, draw a card would be counterproductive becase there are serious chances to spend the whole deck, and a Fog effect will ruin us. These concrete card is an example why I like to play City of Solitude instead Leyline, also having 2-3 City of Solitude is enough, but with Leyline you must include 4 to try to assure you initialy draw Leyline and begin the game with him, so a hand with more than one Leyline is more probable, a nasty chance.

That's a really good point about city; that it can stop other things besides counters (i.e. sweepers). That is worth strong consideration. How do we ensure we get it in against control though? Top?

[abel_lg]

That's a really good point about city; that it can stop other things besides counters (i.e. sweepers). That is worth strong consideration. How do we ensure we get it in against control though? Top?

I think it's all about metagame questions... If the metagame is plagued with control decks and/or with decks with denial, I suppose your option with Leylines is the best. But if we live in an environment with a lot of mass removal City is the solution. Top also lets you to get concrete cards you need (Glimpse, creature tutor, Symbiote, etc), but we only see three cards, and if no one of three likes us we need some shuffle effect like fetchlands (or using our creature's tutors) to shuffle and view three "new" cards the next turn... I suppose Enlightened tutor to be the most direct way to have City, but it only would be a good option if we have more things to tutor with it (i.e. Lightning Greaves). I think that option uses too much slots. In Enchantress, the search engine is Sterling Grove, but we don't have any other enchantments to search. The only way for this to be viable is change the kill card for an enchantment if we're going to tutor with Sterling or for an artifact if we're going to tutor with Enlightened. Goblin Bombardment wouldn't be a bad chance, also let attack and after assigning damage, sacrifice blocked elves to the other player's head, but we're in the same: without City we're helpless to a Fog/Prevention effect. Also if we want to include Enlightened Tutor we can include Staff of domination which help us to untap all our elves, but it's another card slot and don't kill himself.

Forget about Transmute (I've posted before with that idea, then now I'm editing it) because the converted mana cost of the card to search must coincide with the converted mana cost of the card with Transmute. Then only Perplex (or Dimir Machinations, useless for this deck even like SB), for example can help to find the City. So, would be the best option Have 2 - 3 City + Demonic Tutor + Vampiric Tutor? Even Diabolic Intent would be better, put the card in hand at the cost of 1B and sac a creature...

[Oiolosse]

Also you have Vitalize in green, altough you don't draw a card... If you kill with Storm, it counts for the storm count also, and allows you to continue with the combo at these not-so-good hands.

Or Goblin Bombardment for a not so direct way for killing.

I use one vitalize in my Elf deck and it's perfect.

[abel_lg]

I use one vitalize in my Elf deck and it's perfect.

But in which type of Elves deck? With one I think it's more than enough.

[k2thej]

Abel: When I said top I meant how does city help us against countertop haha.

[Koby]

Played this list on MTGO last nite to a 3-1 finish.

8 Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills

4 Birchlore Rangers
2 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Eternal Witness
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Priest of Titania
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman
3 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact

Sideboard
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Krosan Grip
3 Leyline of Lifeforce
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Viridian Shaman

Round 1: Rbg Goblins (2-0)
Combo off turn 2 Game 1, and turn 3 Game 2 after he cast Perish.

Round 2: UW/g Landstill (2-0)
Long games every single one. I boarded out Glimpses for the 2nd game for Leylines. Also bought in Thorns and they helped to tax my opponent. 4 mana Brainstorms don't seem so hot! :D

Round 3: Naya Sligh (0-2)
Game 1, burn your dudes.
Game 2, burn your dudes with Ethersworn Canonist out.
There's really no way to beat this deck unless you play Absolute Law.

Round 4: UGr Countertop with Firespout (2-1)
Game 1, attack with elves after a fizzle and try not to lose to Firespout
Game 2, lose to Summoner's Pact after Firespout
Game 3, Jace active on the board, Emrakul in hand; he lets me keep a Priest of Titania and lets me untap with it. I make exactly 15 mana and he scoops. MISE!

The online metagame:
Countertop, Zoo, Affinity. There is no Survival/VV decks since they cost infy, but arguably I have a good matchup against them. I would play Survival of the Fittest in the deck if I owned them online (still).

[(nameless one)]

Hey ruckus,

When you said you'd play Survival online, did you mean the card on this deck or Vengevine-Survival deck?

I remember your old list had SotF. If you were talking about that version, would Fauna Shaman be a good alternative for that?

[Koby]

I mean the card, not the Vengevine. Fauna Shaman is good in the Survival build, but too slow for versions that utilize Birchlore Ranger and 4 Summoner's Pact.

[(nameless one)]

I mean the card, not the Vengevine. Fauna Shaman is good in the Survival build, but too slow for versions that utilize Birchlore Ranger and 4 Summoner's Pact.

But wouldn't you say its versetile or would it will still be pointless?

Would you/have you played on MTGO with your old version with Fauna Shaman as SotF?

[Mr. Safety]

I appreciate your point of view of Leyline vs City and I agree with all, but I see an extra utility in City which is it covers not only for counters, it covers you at all: if you begin to combo, your only limit are you and your deck, neither your rival in your turn. I think in some specific metagame would be better to have one.

About untapping elves I agree at all, is not necessary to include something to untap, but if is that what you want, best to have it in green than in white, also, in the specific situation he wants to untap the elves, draw a card would be counterproductive becase there are serious chances to spend the whole deck, and a Fog effect will ruin us. These concrete card is an example why I like to play City of Solitude instead Leyline, also having 2-3 City of Solitude is enough, but with Leyline you must include 4 to try to assure you initialy draw Leyline and begin the game with him, so a hand with more than one Leyline is more probable, a nasty chance.

I've said it before, but not on this forum: I don't like aggro as a main win condition for elves. I think there are just way too many answers that hit the board before you can get there. The whole reason for even suggesting an untap effect was so Mirror Entity could beef up the dudes that don't have summoning sickness THE SAME TURN so you can alpha strike FTW. Now, if those dudes are tapped down to provide mana for the Glimpse engine, they aren't capable of attacking (except maybe Nettle Sentinel)

I saw a guy post that he went 0-2 against naya sligh (I'm assuming it was a stock zoo list). This matchup isn't as bad if you can win in one turn with Grapeshot/Emrakul (Emrakul getting on the table...takes 2-3 turns to actually win. Luckily you get one right away...) This is the only way I feel Elves can work, and that's by using a combo win. An aggro win is a win nonetheless, but it's an alternative win. If you're banking on an aggro win every game, you're going to have a tough time IMHO. I'd rather just win with Grapeshot on turn 2-4.

[Koby]

I probably would not have played Fauna Shaman in that build. Being able to use SotF repeatedly on the same turn is the crux of its addition. Fauna Shaman is better in Aggro Elves as he's perfect for finding the best creature in your deck for the turn. SotF in this deck functions as a repeatable tutor.

[Koby]

I saw a guy post that he went 0-2 against naya sligh (I'm assuming it was a stock zoo list). This matchup isn't as bad if you can win in one turn with Grapeshot/Emrakul (Emrakul getting on the table...takes 2-3 turns to actually win. Luckily you get one right away...) This is the only way I feel Elves can work, and that's by using a combo win. An aggro win is a win nonetheless, but it's an alternative win. If you're banking on an aggro win every game, you're going to have a tough time IMHO. I'd rather just win with Grapeshot on turn 2-4.

Naya Sligh is 16 bolt + fireblast with Nacatl, Step Lynx, Lavamancer (ugggghhhh) and Goblin Guide. This isn't a stock Zoo list whatsoever. It also didn't help that I had Emrakul stuck in my hand since turn 2 both games (ugghhh) while being stuck on 1 land. *shrug*

[k2thej]

Played this list on MTGO last nite to a 3-1 finish.

8 Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills

4 Birchlore Rangers
2 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Eternal Witness
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Priest of Titania
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman
3 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact

Sideboard
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Krosan Grip
3 Leyline of Lifeforce
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Viridian Shaman

Round 1: Rbg Goblins (2-0)
Combo off turn 2 Game 1, and turn 3 Game 2 after he cast Perish.

Round 2: UW/g Landstill (2-0)
Long games every single one. I boarded out Glimpses for the 2nd game for Leylines. Also bought in Thorns and they helped to tax my opponent. 4 mana Brainstorms don't seem so hot! :D

Round 3: Naya Sligh (0-2)
Game 1, burn your dudes.
Game 2, burn your dudes with Ethersworn Canonist out.
There's really no way to beat this deck unless you play Absolute Law.

Round 4: UGr Countertop with Firespout (2-1)
Game 1, attack with elves after a fizzle and try not to lose to Firespout
Game 2, lose to Summoner's Pact after Firespout
Game 3, Jace active on the board, Emrakul in hand; he lets me keep a Priest of Titania and lets me untap with it. I make exactly 15 mana and he scoops. MISE!

The online metagame:
Countertop, Zoo, Affinity. There is no Survival/VV decks since they cost infy, but arguably I have a good matchup against them. I would play Survival of the Fittest in the deck if I owned them online (still).




Ruckus- we seem to be going for similar builds. Few things:

Do you think the priests are worth it?

Why not 4 rangers? They save my ass quite frequently.

I tend to go for more one drops instead of priests/archdruids since they are more vulnerable to spot removal if you concentrate the mana production in fewer creatures. Benefits of priests over druids? I have rarely ever been able to cast a priest without a druid.

Is it worth it to have shaman in main?

What are your main witness targets (I would imagine glimpse but are there others)?

[Koby]

Druid/Priests are interchangeable, but I like being able to use Priests earlier and not rely on having 3 mana (for instance, mana elf + forest). Quirion Ranger hasn't helped me much in this build as it does in the SotF build. Untapping a non-Priest elf isn't the biggest concern. Wirewood Symbiote serves the same function but also fuels Glimpse triggers which is far more important.

Eternal Witness gets whatever is good at the time. I have never tutored for it midcombo however. I've used it many times to get back another Pact mid-combo, a fetchland prior to going off, or returning a dead Archdruid/Viridian Shaman.

As for Viridian Shaman maindeck, he's saved my skin a few times vs Jitte and other nuisances like Affinity, which is abundant in the MTGO meta. Wirewood Symbiote + V. Shaman = victory!

[k2thej]

Druid/Priests are interchangeable, but I like being able to use Priests earlier and not rely on having 3 mana (for instance, mana elf + forest). Quirion Ranger hasn't helped me much in this build as it does in the SotF build. Untapping a non-Priest elf isn't the biggest concern. Wirewood Symbiote serves the same function but also fuels Glimpse triggers which is far more important.

Eternal Witness gets whatever is good at the time. I have never tutored for it midcombo however. I've used it many times to get back another Pact mid-combo, a fetchland prior to going off, or returning a dead Archdruid/Viridian Shaman.

As for Viridian Shaman maindeck, he's saved my skin a few times vs Jitte and other nuisances like Affinity, which is abundant in the MTGO meta. Wirewood Symbiote + V. Shaman = victory!


I think I'd rather just race affinity than worry about blowing their stuff up

The reason I like ranger is because of two turn 2 plays that I make very often:

-Only have one land in play and a ranger, and no lands in hand. tap the land, bounce, play again, tap again.

or the better play:
-Have one land in play and a llanowar/fyndhorn. Tap the forst for a ranger, tap the llanowar/fyndhorn for a heritage. Bounce the land to untap the llanowar/fyndhorn, float three with heritage to start comboing or cast an archdruid.

[abel_lg]

Ruckus- we seem to be going for similar builds. Few things:

Do you think the priests are worth it?

Why not 4 rangers? They save my ass quite frequently.

I tend to go for more one drops instead of priests/archdruids since they are more vulnerable to spot removal if you concentrate the mana production in fewer creatures. Benefits of priests over druids? I have rarely ever been able to cast a priest without a druid.

Is it worth it to have shaman in main?

What are your main witness targets (I would imagine glimpse but are there others)?

I'm totally agree with that. Maybe there is no reason for including 4, but 3 would be a nice number to include Quirion Ranger. I think Priest/Archdruid are better with Concordant or something like that giving him haste.

I've obviously confused top, I thought you were speaking about if it worths including divining top to tutor in the deck. It seems ridiculous, but I think it's worthy to discuss about other ways to tutoring, not only Summonre's, will also be interesting to be possible to tutor the Grapeshot or another cards.

And about Countertop, obviously City doesn't help us a lot, if we have this archetype we must sideboard not only City, also Krosan Grip. City only helps us against hand counters, but I've mentioned City because it seem the only menace we have for our play were counters/stifles and it helps for sure play in our turn against fire, against creatures with flash with nasty effects of the like "when X comes into play", also substract interaction of our rival, when he saw what we did in our turn, not letting him to draw/interact with his deck in the manner "before my turn I cast Brainstorm/Top...", protects us against something like "I prevent damage dealt by Grapeshot" (Fog to Emrakul it's worthless because he sacrifices 6 permanents).

[Infinitium]

Keeping to fiddle around with Living Wish. The card really is quite diverse and has saved my ass in a number of situations and singlehandedly beats any and all hatecards game 1 save Humility (and that's only until they print something with Channeling/Cycling Enchantment removal), so I went ahead and cut a Messenger to adda 3rd copy main (moving the Messenger to the side in lieu of Viridian Shaman). Paying 1G for Cradle or Faerie, 1GG for the 6th Symbiote or 3GGG for Sylvan Messenger or Viridian Zealot are all perfectly viable at different stages of the game (especially as tutoring up Symbiote still is essentially card advantage at a negative mana cost with Priest/Archdruid out), making it another bomb to complement the draw engines.

The difference between 15 and 17 mana for Emrakul is neglible (and I get to play 3 virtual copies to boot without the hassle of actually drawing it), and having access to it without bogging down the main is strangely convenient; Emrakul beats Show and Tell, Emrakul beats damage prevention, Emrakul beats my largely unfounded fears that my opponent is coy enough to play enchantment on Crossroads removal into next turn sweeper. Hell, in conjunction with Masticore Emrakul even beats infinite life combos by singlehandidly locking them out of the game and decking them (combo out, Emrakul, blow up world, play masticore, discard down, kill off as many Elves as I please, then spend 30 mana to burn Emrakul to death (killing Masticore itself in response to avoid StP) and shuffle my gy into my library only to combo out again next turn - rinse and repeat). Also it can be sided in against milling combo decks.

Masticore is there to beat Peacekeeper and Fortune Thief, as well as being a decent ace in the sleeve against tribal decks that might or may not pack Perish/Plague. Witness is overall quite redundant as a card engine with access to Messenger, but does recycly Glimpse and Grip against decks running sweepers and counters (where the combo win is safer when possible).

Is it better than Survival? I think so. It's just more diverse, more mana efficient, doesn't necessitate running Taigas, isn't vulnerable to GYhate and allows me to hold up on running silver bullets maindecked. It doesn't win the game singlehandedly off an empty board given time like survival can however (especially against decks running obnoxious amounts of removal). Giving up half the the sideboard isn't much of an issue; it's mainly for Krosan Grip and GYhate anyhow (even in my non-Wish builds), and unless you really want to commit 7 spots to the combo matchup it's probably better not to side in most matchups anyhow what with how tight the maindeck is. I somewhat miss Needle, but overall it's an improvement in testing.

[k2thej]

Keeping to fiddle around with Living Wish. The card really is quite diverse and has saved my ass in a number of situations and singlehandedly beats any and all hatecards game 1 save Humility (and that's only until they print something with Channeling/Cycling Enchantment removal), so I went ahead and cut a Messenger to adda 3rd copy main (moving the Messenger to the side in lieu of Viridian Shaman). Paying 1G for Cradle or Faerie, 1GG for the 6th Symbiote or 3GGG for Sylvan Messenger or Viridian Zealot are all perfectly viable at different stages of the game (especially as tutoring up Symbiote still is essentially card advantage at a negative mana cost with Priest/Archdruid out), making it another bomb to complement the draw engines.

The difference between 15 and 17 mana for Emrakul is neglible (and I get to play 3 virtual copies to boot without the hassle of actually drawing it), and having access to it without bogging down the main is strangely convenient; Emrakul beats Show and Tell, Emrakul beats damage prevention, Emrakul beats my largely unfounded fears that my opponent is coy enough to play enchantment on Crossroads removal into next turn sweeper. Hell, in conjunction with Masticore Emrakul even beats infinite life combos by singlehandidly locking them out of the game and decking them (combo out, Emrakul, blow up world, play masticore, discard down, kill off as many Elves as I please, then spend 30 mana to burn Emrakul to death (killing Masticore itself in response to avoid StP) and shuffle my gy into my library only to combo out again next turn - rinse and repeat). Also it can be sided in against milling combo decks.

Masticore is there to beat Peacekeeper and Fortune Thief, as well as being a decent ace in the sleeve against tribal decks that might or may not pack Perish/Plague. Witness is overall quite redundant as a card engine with access to Messenger, but does recycly Glimpse and Grip against decks running sweepers and counters (where the combo win is safer when possible).

Is it better than Survival? I think so. It's just more diverse, more mana efficient, doesn't necessitate running Taigas, isn't vulnerable to GYhate and allows me to hold up on running silver bullets maindecked. It doesn't win the game singlehandedly off an empty board given time like survival can however (especially against decks running obnoxious amounts of removal). Giving up half the the sideboard isn't much of an issue; it's mainly for Krosan Grip and GYhate anyhow (even in my non-Wish builds), and unless you really want to commit 7 spots to the combo matchup it's probably better not to side in most matchups anyhow what with how tight the maindeck is. I somewhat miss Needle, but overall it's an improvement in testing.


Are you running Nettle/Heritage in the board to have access to them too? Maybe you could post your list?

[Infinitium]

Nah. Same deal; 4x Heritage maindecked, no Nettles. I only have access to 7x Wishboard slots and those are currently filled (since I consider 4x Grip/Faerie Macabre mandatory to deal with assorted hate and Reanimator/recursion).

[Shabbaman]

It's hard to imagine this deck without Nettle Sentinel. After Heritage Druid it'd be the last card that I'd cut. I'll have to see how that works, considering that it works for you. Now that you've told more about the wish sideboard I'm seeing more in that plan as well. I'd run Pact even if it was only to get a free untap from the Sentinel, but if you cut that Living Wish really makes a lot more sense. I have to be careful not to get stuck in the "I want Sentinal and Pact in my deck because I am in luv" mode :)

Living Wish into Masticore seems awesome. Connecting this to the previous page: how does this help you against Zoo with burn? Not quite I guess.

[Infinitium]

It's basically the Goblins deal; as long as you survive the first few turns outside burn range (which is doable since like Goblins they really have to answer quite the few creatures immedieatly or risk losing) you will eventually overwhelm them. Your fundamental is also faster but competent opponents will disrupt that so playing miniglimpses aggresively to cycle chumpers is probably a good idea until you stabilize. Slighesque builds are generally worse than big Zoo since they run 1-drops that matter and more burn, but in my experience the mu has been slightly negative to even.

Nettle Sentinel is a matter of taste but personally I dislike that engine since it's reliant on both Heritage and Glimpse being available for it to actually do something other than being a slightly anemic beater, and aggressively summoner's pacting backfires easily. Heritage Druid really is the broken part of the interaction anyway, essentially getting you several free dark rituals with which to find Crossroads/Priest ftw (the untappers and 4 virtual Cradles helps with this).

EDIT: Oh, yeah. List. Not much has changed since I started posting it on this thread really, just the number of Messengers main and the tutor slot.

// Lands
15 [TE] Forest
1 [US] Gaea's Cradle

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Elvish Visionary
4 [WWK] Joraga Warcaller
3 [EVG] Sylvan Messenger
3 [10E] Llanowar Elves
4 [MOR] Heritage Druid
4 [FNM] Priest of Titania
4 [M10] Elvish Archdruid
3 [EVG] Wirewood Symbiote
3 [DM] Fyndhorn Elves
3 [VI] Quirion Ranger

// Spells
4 [CHK] Glimpse of Nature
2 [LG] Concordant Crossroads
3 [JU] Living Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Gaea's Cradle
SB: 1 [EVG] Wirewood Symbiote
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 [DS] Viridian Zealot
SB: 1 [UD] Masticore
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [FD] Eternal Witness
SB: 1 [EVG] Sylvan Messenger

[k2thej]

It's basically the Goblins deal; as long as you survive the first few turns outside burn range (which is doable since like Goblins they really have to answer quite the few creatures immedieatly or risk losing) you will eventually overwhelm them. Your fundamental is also faster but competent opponents will disrupt that so playing miniglimpses aggresively to cycle chumpers is probably a good idea until you stabilize. Slighesque builds are generally worse than big Zoo since they run 1-drops that matter and more burn, but in my experience the mu has been slightly negative to even.

Nettle Sentinel is a matter of taste but personally I dislike that engine since it's reliant on both Heritage and Glimpse being available for it to actually do something other than being a slightly anemic beater, and aggressively summoner's pacting backfires easily. Heritage Druid really is the broken part of the interaction anyway, essentially getting you several free dark rituals with which to find Crossroads/Priest ftw (the untappers and 4 virtual Cradles helps with this).

EDIT: Oh, yeah. List. Not much has changed since I started posting it on this thread really, just the number of Messengers main and the tutor slot.

// Lands
15 [TE] Forest
1 [US] Gaea's Cradle

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Elvish Visionary
4 [WWK] Joraga Warcaller
3 [EVG] Sylvan Messenger
3 [10E] Llanowar Elves
4 [MOR] Heritage Druid
4 [FNM] Priest of Titania
4 [M10] Elvish Archdruid
3 [EVG] Wirewood Symbiote
3 [DM] Fyndhorn Elves
3 [VI] Quirion Ranger

// Spells
4 [CHK] Glimpse of Nature
2 [LG] Concordant Crossroads
3 [JU] Living Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Gaea's Cradle
SB: 1 [EVG] Wirewood Symbiote
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 [DS] Viridian Zealot
SB: 1 [UD] Masticore
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [FD] Eternal Witness
SB: 1 [EVG] Sylvan Messenger

As someone who optimizes the combo in elves combo, I have to disagree that Nettle is optional. Nettle, heritage, and glimpse are MUSTS. With nettle in hand, it usually speeds up the goldfish by a full turn. Why wouldn't you want that?

[Mr. Safety]

As someone who optimizes the combo in elves combo, I have to disagree that Nettle is optional. Nettle, heritage, and glimpse are MUSTS. With nettle in hand, it usually speeds up the goldfish by a full turn. Why wouldn't you want that?

What he said ^^^ lol

Whether you're focusing on combo (like myself and k2thej) or aggro, Nettle Sentinel along with Heritage Druid/Birchlore Rangers is the stone cold nuts. I've had games where I got 5-6 elves on the battlefield along with an Imperious Perfect on turn 2. That means even if you don't draw Glimpse/Regal Force/Summoner's Pact to GET Regal Force, you'll still have the potential for attacking for 10-12 damage on turn 3. Not the fastest aggro clock, but pretty damn fast.

[Infinitium]

As someone who optimizes the combo in elves combo, I have to disagree that Nettle is optional. Nettle, heritage, and glimpse are MUSTS. With nettle in hand, it usually speeds up the goldfish by a full turn. Why wouldn't you want that?

Again, because the format runs enough relevant disruption that the goldfish isn't happening consistently enough to sacrifice resilience in my opinion. Same difference as Belcher and FT to make a very rough comparison. Also as I cannot resist the rhetorical point - Nettle: heritage and glimpse ARE musts.

Still, this is going nowhere. Agree to disagree?

[k2thej]

Again, because the format runs enough relevant disruption that the goldfish isn't happening consistently enough to sacrifice resilience in my opinion. Same difference as Belcher and FT to make a very rough comparison. Also as I cannot resist the rhetorical point - Nettle: heritage and glimpse ARE musts.

Still, this is going nowhere. Agree to disagree?

Seems like a good move right now. I think a good topic to move to would be what to do against sweepers. In general, if people don't have sweepers, I win, so naturally this is my biggest concern. I am running fecundity in the sb right now but I still feel like there has to be something that would be better (and less than 3 mana).

[Waikiki]

I've seen people with the chord of the calling build running dauntless dourbark.

[Infinitium]

Dauntless Dourbark

Are you sure that's the card? It doesn't seem to have any synergy that I'm aware of..?

[Waikiki]

that indeed isn't the card I was looking for. I ment dountless escort!

[k2thej]

that indeed isn't the card I was looking for. I ment dountless escort!

Ya that card isn't bad but it isn't too great either. I'd rather look for a permanent effect like fecundity. I really don't like chord of calling at all, it's just too expensive.

[Infinitium]

Wirewood Symbiote and not overextending the board too much is what I generally go for. There is no catch-all card that will completely nullify sweepers, but in my experience as long as you manage to outdraw the opponent and they don't keep you under pressure you will stick enough to win eventually (unless they completely deprive you of mana sources, which is another good reason not to skimp on forests in favor of temporary mana sources such as Spirit Guides etc).

[k2thej]

Has anyone thought of the applications of comboing with food chain? The easiness of turn 2 combos made me happy. Example:

Turn one: forest, llanowar
Turn two, forest, food chain. Remove llanowar for glimpse and another one drop and off you go!

[1maarten1]

Has anyone thought of the applications of comboing with food chain? The easiness of turn 2 combos made me happy. Example:

Turn one: forest, llanowar
Turn two, forest, food chain. Remove llanowar for glimpse and another one drop and off you go!

There was a foodchain-elves thread already on the source, and I tested with it. It was nice, but I just liked the consistancy of the normal elves combo better. My list didnt run glimpse of nature, and I dont think thats the way to go.

[Koby]

I tried Army of Ancients (Glimpse + Food Chain Elves), but the list relies too heavily on Food Chain.

Turn 2 Eldrazi is really funny however. :)

[(nameless one)]

And its a casted Eldrazi, not cheated you get the perks.

Hey ruckus, if your meta on paper is ideal for Elves Combo and Survival of the Fittest gets the axe, how would your list look like. Would it look the same as your MTGO list? How would this affect your deck's playstyle?

[k2thej]

I tried Army of Ancients (Glimpse + Food Chain Elves), but the list relies too heavily on Food Chain.

Turn 2 Eldrazi is really funny however. :)

True, though I get turn 2 Emrakul quite a bit as it is...

[Mr. Safety]

Just a question: if I decide to utilize Emrakul in my build, does Priest of Titania become neccessary? I would think so...

[k2thej]

Just a question: if I decide to utilize Emrakul in my build, does Priest of Titania become neccessary? I would think so...

No it doesn't. I optimize my build for combo, so I want as few creatures that are more than one mana as possible. Visionary is necessary for consistency in the combo, so she's in, and then I figure I need a lord for an aggro backup and a mana lord. Archdruid does both in one card and leaves room for more one drops. Thus, he is the choice.

[Neil]

k2thej could you post your latest deck list? Also on what turns do you likely combo off?

[Koby]

Most of the discussion from August to today is relevant. I highly recommend interested players in reading the thread from then.


Combo Elves can conceivably go off turn 2. Turn 3 is very common start up as well. 4 Summoner's Pact make it easy to get the right pieces; just watch out for potential mass/spot removal in case you need to pass the turn.

[GoldenCid]

Well....i'm starting with this deck with a "full combo" ie no natural order. I goes off pretty good but i know it dies to plague. But well, it's just the begining. Suggestions are welcomed and advises too.


// Lands
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
8 [P3] Forest (2)
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [US] Gaea's Cradle

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Elvish Visionary
1 [IA] Fyndhorn Elves
4 [5E] Llanowar Elves
4 [ON] Birchlore Rangers
4 [MOR] Heritage Druid
2 [US] Priest of Titania
4 [EVE] Nettle Sentinel
4 [SC] Wirewood Symbiote
2 [EVG] Sylvan Messenger
1 [EVE] Regal Force
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 [FNM] Quirion Ranger

// Spells
3 [RAV] Chord of Calling
4 [CHK] Glimpse of Nature
3 [FUT] Summoner's Pact
1 [TSP] Grapeshot

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [LE] Caller of the Claw
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [TE] Choke


3 NO + 1 Proggy post side is good?? What about leyline of the vitality?

Thx you all!

[Koby]

Hey ruckus, if your meta on paper is ideal for Elves Combo and Survival of the Fittest gets the axe, how would your list look like. Would it look the same as your MTGO list? How would this affect your deck's playstyle?

I believe my metagame is about 40-50% blue decks, comprised of Merfolk, X-still, and CB/Top. The remaining is random decks from every gamut (Affinity, RDW/Burn, Goblins, Aggro Elves, Zoo, etc). Only about 15-20% of it is Survival decks right now. Until Jan 1st (once bannings are in place), I would say that the metagame is marginally positive for combo Elves.

I would very likely play a list very similar to k2thej's. It is very streamlined. Unfortunately, I prefer the SotF back-up plan with Anger/utility, and that may sadly get banned. We'll see soon enough.

[Hrelja]

Hello :)

I got to say I really like k2thej's list. Quite stable and really quick, I've gotten Emrakuls on turn 2 with surprising regularity. It's on page 24 if I'm not mistaken.

I'd be interested in an updated list as well if you have one.

As for Priest of Titania, I haven't missed it in my 20ish matches with the deck.

Also, yes, Survival might get banned, according to BDM's last article.

[Koplinchen]

I like this list as well. It is suprisingly stable and within a few turns it can fully recover from opponent's bomb. I was just thinking that the inclusion of single viridian shaman might be vital. Chalice turn1 just kills this deck, doesen't it?
I am not sure if that is relevant argument for weakaning maine? And if the calls for it, what to replace?
Second. Is Gaea's Cradle all that necessary? Doesen't if weaken your opening hand?

I am just starting with this decek eventhough I play legacy for a long time.

Thank to all for comments.

[Koplinchen]

I like this list as well. It is suprisingly stable and within a few turns it can fully recover from opponent's bomb. I was just thinking that the inclusion of single viridian shaman might be vital. Chalice turn1 just kills this deck, doesen't it?
I am not sure if that is relevant argument for weakaning maine? And if the calls for it, what to replace?
Second. Is Gaea's Cradle all that necessary? Doesen't if weaken your opening hand?

I am just starting with this decek eventhough I play legacy for a long time.

Thank to all for comments.

[GoldenCid]

I like this list as well. It is suprisingly stable and within a few turns it can fully recover from opponent's bomb. I was just thinking that the inclusion of single viridian shaman might be vital. Chalice turn1 just kills this deck, doesen't it?

Thank to all for comments.

I'm running 1 x of Wickerbough Elder and it works awesome!

[k2thej]

I'm running 1 x of Wickerbough Elder and it works awesome!

Your list isnt bad, but Emrakul+Grapeshot=overkill. The reasons this deck works is because you maximize the number of favorable opening hands, and to do this you want to minimize the number of times your wincon is in your opening hand, thus, only play one. Especially if your one goes back into your library if discarded.

I will post a new list once I finalize the few slots I am toying with right now.

[k2thej]

Just thought of new terminology we should start thinking about using.

Tapper- heritage, birchlore
Untapper- Nettle (yes I want to consider Nettle an untapper), wirewood, quirion
Starter- glimpse, Regal (ideally through a summoners pact)

You generally want one of each of these categories in your opening hand (or a pact so sub for one or even two), usually, in the order they are written down. This deck is all about getting one of each of these puppies in your opening hand, design accordingly!

[abel_lg]

Just thought of new terminology we should start thinking about using.

Tapper- heritage, birchlore
Untapper- Nettle (yes I want to consider Nettle an untapper), wirewood, quirion
Starter- glimpse, Regal (ideally through a summoners pact)

You generally want one of each of these categories in your opening hand (or a pact so sub for one or even two), usually, in the order they are written down. This deck is all about getting one of each of these puppies in your opening hand, design accordingly!

I'm agree with that clasification if we speak about opening hands and odds. Which is in your opinion the best possible hand/s?

[k2thej]

I'm agree with that clasification if we speak about opening hands and odds. Which is in your opinion the best possible hand/s?

Anything that gets you a turn 2 combo. Almost always involves glimpse being in your hand. Something like this:

Glimpse
Land
Heritage
Nettle
Qurion
Land
Llanowar/fyndhorn

Note that you can have a pact to replace anything you would play on the turn you combo. They are literally interchangeable at that point with no drawbacks; one of the main contributions to the consistency of this build.



The main change I am toying with in my build right now is 3 wishes for the emrakul and two other spots. I really like the idea of never having emrakul when you don't need him (again, ups the consistency of opening hands) since you would always be able to get him when you need him as well. It seems to remove the downside of having emrakul in your opening hand without contributing and new drawbacks. It also allows you access to a cradle mid combo if you are running out of mana, and access to a regal force if you are running out of dudes. It seems like a good idea, my only hesitation is what other two cards to remove to free up the three slots for the wishes.


I do, however, think the maindeck is pretty set. Let's face it, it works. The thing keeping this from being a top-tier deck is that there arn't many complementary sideboard cards, especially since anything we add to the deck to, in a sense, up the defense against something will weaken our combo consistency. If we can figure out sideboard choices and what to board out for them to maintain consistency (mainly against sweepers) this will become a top tier deck. But it is the sideboard that is holding it back not the main deck.

[nodahero]

My suggestion to strengthen the deck against sweepers would be to include some combination of Elevish Messenger (the Apoc. elf ringleader) and Elvish Champion.

These adjustments to the board allow you to become a more aggro oriented build that is not dependent on comboing off and reduces the opponents ability to gain card advantage and thus in turn reducing there ability to win through brute card advantage.

[k2thej]

My suggestion to strengthen the deck against sweepers would be to include some combination of Elevish Messenger (the Apoc. elf ringleader) and Elvish Champion.

These adjustments to the board allow you to become a more aggro oriented build that is not dependent on comboing off and reduces the opponents ability to gain card advantage and thus in turn reducing there ability to win through brute card advantage.

I don't think diminishing the combo is the way to beat sweepers. In fact, it hurts us against sweepers. The combo allows you to wait to drop your elves until you will win that turn, removing the threat of any sorcery sweepers. Aggro leaves your guys out vulnerable to all sweepers on the field. It is better to keep everyone you can in hand until you go off. The deck should be played by only dropping the elves you NEED out in order to combo off the following turn.

[kicks_422]

I tried Army of Ancients (Glimpse + Food Chain Elves), but the list relies too heavily on Food Chain.

Well, the Food Chain Elves list relies on Food Chain just as much as the Glimpse Elves list relies on Glimpse of Nature.

[k2thej]

Well, the Food Chain Elves list relies on Food Chain just as much as the Glimpse Elves list relies on Glimpse of Nature.

Food chain is 3 mana and it is on the field and can be killed. It is much better to rely on glimpse. Also, we have regal force and pacts to get him if need be.

We should be focusing on sb though.

[KevinTrudeau]

Here's the sideboard I've been tinkering with on MWS (my maindeck is pretty much k^j's):

4 Leyline of Lifeforce- Amazing against Counterbalance/Chalice. I usually side out all four Glimpses and just try to beat down.

4 Thorn of Amethyst- You can outrace gy decks, so I decided to shore up the combo matchup because they're faster. You can drop this T2 rather easily and then try to race them while they scramble for Chain of Vapor.

3 Fecundity- Easily my favorite card in the sideboard. Lessons the blow from non-Swords removal mightily. Allows you to chump block Tarmogoyf all day while cantripping into combo pieces. Obviously good against Firespout. You can even cycle 1/1's against Engineered Plague until you find a lord.

2 Gleeful Sabotage- 2 CMC and better potential pushes this above Krosan Grip's consistency, although I can easily see why one would favor Grip.

1 Elvish Champion- MVP against U/G based tempo decks like New Horizons. Goes well with the beatdown plan against Counterbalance. Pact target.

1 Nullmage Shepherd- The best artifact/enchantment destruction Elf available in my mind since her ability is recursive and isn't too much harder to activate than Shaman/Zealot. Pact target.

[Koby]

How would you play this hand?

Turn 1: Villian
Villian casts Duress targeting Koby.
Koby discards Glimpse of Nature.
Koby reveals their hand, which contains: Elvish Archdruid, Forest, Fyndhorn Elves, Nettle Sentinel, Quirion Ranger, Summoner's Pact.
Turn 1: Koby

[KevinTrudeau]

T1 Fyndhorn Elves. Get out a T2 Archdruid via Fyndhorn Elves and Qurion Ranger. Pact for Regal Force on T3 after casting Nettle Sentinel, tapping Archdruid for GGGG, untapping Archdruid and returning Forest via Ranger, and tapping Archdruid for GGGG. Cast Regal Force and draw a minimum of five cards with G floating, an untapped Fyndhorn Elves, and no land drop for the turn. Depending on what you drew on T1, 2, or 3, you could also go for Joraga Warcaller with the Pact. This is, of course, assuming the opponent hasn't had any disruption whatsoever besides the initial Duress.

[k2thej]

T1 Fyndhorn Elves. Get out a T2 Archdruid via Fyndhorn Elves and Qurion Ranger. Pact for Regal Force on T3 after casting Nettle Sentinel, tapping Archdruid for GGGG, untapping Archdruid and returning Forest via Ranger, and tapping Archdruid for GGGG. Cast Regal Force and draw a minimum of five cards with G floating, an untapped Fyndhorn Elves, and no land drop for the turn. Depending on what you drew on T1, 2, or 3, you could also go for Joraga Warcaller with the Pact. This is, of course, assuming the opponent hasn't had any disruption whatsoever besides the initial Duress.

I agree pending anything new you drew that would change it.

[1maarten1]

Hello everybody,

I played this deck for a long time, took a break and now im getting back into it.

Some questions for k2thej

How do you like a singleton gaea's cradle? I never liked it without crop rotation, it always felt so unneeded.

Also, I never liked Leylines... whats your opinion on those vs something like choke?

Also: I see many people run emrakul as win-con, I prefer grapeshot/witness maindeck, and an emrakul side. This because people in my meta started running peacekeeper etc. And boarding emrakul vs show and tell decks has a nice surprise factor (eventhough the chances are small :P It has happened to me 1 or 2 times)

And why is nobody running a singleton Ezuri, renegade leader?? I really liked it when I played the deck.

My current sideboard (I believe I posted it a few pages ago)
4 choke
2 krosan grip
2 reverent silence
3 vengevine
1 emrakul
3 joraga warcaller/thorn of amethyst not sure on these slots.

~Maarten

[Koby]

I wanted to share a quick game I played with 3x Living Wish. It works so well!

Here's the changes I made:
-1 Viridian Shaman
-1 Eternal Witness
-1 Emrakul

+3 Wishes

Sideboard:
+1 Masticore (either variant works, I'm testing with Molten Tail)
+1 Emrakul
+1 Gaea's Cradle

(-3 Faerie Macabre in anticipation of a neutered Vengevival dominance)

[1maarten1]

I wanted to share a quick game I played with 3x Living Wish. It works so well!

Here's the changes I made:
-1 Viridian Shaman
-1 Eternal Witness
-1 Emrakul

+3 Wishes

Sideboard:
+1 Masticore (either variant works, I'm testing with Molten Tail)
+1 Emrakul
+1 Gaea's Cradle

(-3 Faerie Macabre in anticipation of a neutered Vengevival dominance)

This is interesting! I mean, I ran grapeshot mainly for creature based hate like peacekeeper, but you have masticore for that! Very interesting, I will try this out. (for me -1 witness, -1 grapeshot, -1 viridian shaman)

Sideboard:
4 choke
2 grips/2 rev.silence
3 vengevine
1 masticore
1 emrakul
1 gaea's cradle
1 viridian shaman

[GoldenCid]

Here's the sideboard I've been tinkering with on MWS (my maindeck is pretty much k^j's):

4 Leyline of Lifeforce- Amazing against Counterbalance/Chalice. I usually side out all four Glimpses and just try to beat down.


This card is probably the best card in the side!! Is awesome!

[k2thej]

Hello everybody,

I played this deck for a long time, took a break and now im getting back into it.

Some questions for k2thej

How do you like a singleton gaea's cradle? I never liked it without crop rotation, it always felt so unneeded.

Also, I never liked Leylines... whats your opinion on those vs something like choke?

Also: I see many people run emrakul as win-con, I prefer grapeshot/witness maindeck, and an emrakul side. This because people in my meta started running peacekeeper etc. And boarding emrakul vs show and tell decks has a nice surprise factor (eventhough the chances are small :P It has happened to me 1 or 2 times)

And why is nobody running a singleton Ezuri, renegade leader?? I really liked it when I played the deck.

My current sideboard (I believe I posted it a few pages ago)
4 choke
2 krosan grip
2 reverent silence
3 vengevine
1 emrakul
3 joraga warcaller/thorn of amethyst not sure on these slots.

~Maarten

The cradle is great mid combo but with the wishes I am testing I might remove the maindeck cradle.

Leylines. Destroy. Top.

Emrakul is the choice maindeck. Nobody runs peacekeeper in tournaments, and if they do, it would better to have the storm in the board. Again though, with the wishes I would put emrakul in the board.

I will post the new list when I get comfortable with it.

[NihilObstat]

Hi, I haven't had the time to read the whole thread through. I've been playing elves combo for a long time but without reading anywhere online, my list is recently looking like something like this, which is a list that won a 61 player tournament, by Darío González, on November the 28th, 2010:

Creatures [30]
1 Eternal Witness
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Mirror Entity
1 Regal Force
1 Wirewood Hivemaster
2 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Llanowar Elves
2 Quirion Ranger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel

Instants [7]
1 Brain Freeze
1 Crop Rotation
2 Chord of Calling
3 Summoner's Pact

Sorceries [4]
4 Glimpse of Nature

Artifacts [2]
2 Cloudstone Curio

Lands [17]
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
6 Forest

Sideboard:
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Dauntless Escort
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Burrenton Forge-tender
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Yixlid Jailer
2 Krosan Grip
1 Imperious Perfect

Does this list bring any new ideas to you guys, or have all the cards previously been discussed here.

Do you all guys play Chord of calling or is anyone going with Worldly tutor? Do you go Brain Freeze, Grapheshot or Tendrils?
Until last week I was playing 4 Llanowar, 2 Fyndhorn and 4 Quirion, but this list runs a lot less, what do you guys do?

Thanks for all advice, I'll keep coming here ;)

[1maarten1]

Hi, I haven't had the time to read the whole thread through. I've been playing elves combo for a long time but without reading anywhere online, my list is recently looking like something like this, which is a list that won a 61 player tournament, by Darío González, on November the 28th, 2010:

Creatures [30]
1 Eternal Witness
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Mirror Entity
1 Regal Force
1 Wirewood Hivemaster
2 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Llanowar Elves
2 Quirion Ranger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel

Instants [7]
1 Brain Freeze
1 Crop Rotation
2 Chord of Calling
3 Summoner's Pact

Sorceries [4]
4 Glimpse of Nature

Artifacts [2]
2 Cloudstone Curio

Lands [17]
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
6 Forest

Sideboard:
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Dauntless Escort
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Burrenton Forge-tender
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Yixlid Jailer
2 Krosan Grip
1 Imperious Perfect

Does this list bring any new ideas to you guys, or have all the cards previously been discussed here.

Do you all guys play Chord of calling or is anyone going with Worldly tutor? Do you go Brain Freeze, Grapheshot or Tendrils?
Until last week I was playing 4 Llanowar, 2 Fyndhorn and 4 Quirion, but this list runs a lot less, what do you guys do?

Thanks for all advice, I'll keep coming here ;)

Grapeshot is the best storm based combo, by far. But I think its useless to run mirror entity and another storm based kill, its just waste of slots. Go with one, or go with the other.

On the llanowar thing: 5 llanowars is fine, its a matter of how many empty slots you have left. 5-8 llanowar differs from the lists used.

Worldly tutor is bad because it places the card on top and not into your hand. Chord is fine, but in my opinion its too slow/expensive. I play a list with 4 pact and 3 living wish and it has been working awesome so far.

@the list
I find 3 wirewood symbiote weird, since it is probably the best card in the deck, I would also never run less then 3 quirion ranger. I'd cut visionary's over quirion rangers.

Ill post the list I'm testing soon when I get a little more comfortable with it.

[abel_lg]

I've been proving the list with Wish and I like a lot, but I find a little disappointing can't use Wish to tutor some combo pieces. Maybe a slot can be used to add a second Regal Force, or something like that. I know we can't cut the Nettle, but sometimes you've got the Wish and need a Nettle...

[k2thej]

Grapeshot is the best storm based combo, by far. But I think its useless to run mirror entity and another storm based kill, its just waste of slots. Go with one, or go with the other.


I have to disagree that grapeshot is the best. While I still think Emrakul is the best wincon, the 2nd best is def tendrils. Mana is NEVER a problem, but getting to 10 spells instead of 20 sure makes things easier, and it gets around damage prevention, and you can cast it for less and make a huge life spread.

[1maarten1]

I have to disagree that grapeshot is the best. While I still think Emrakul is the best wincon, the 2nd best is def tendrils. Mana is NEVER a problem, but getting to 10 spells instead of 20 sure makes things easier, and it gets around damage prevention, and you can cast it for less and make a huge life spread.

Being able to hit creatures when you fizzle with a smaller storm count is HUGE, and that is why I say grapeshot over any other storm based kill. But I agree on the fact that wish + emrakul & co is the best atm.

[k2thej]

For those of you using a version of my build with wishes, what are you taking out for the wishes besides Emrakul?

[abel_lg]

I'm hesitating between adding a second Regal Force in the SB or let the main Regal Force in the SB. I proved with -1 Emrakul, -1 Viridan Shaman and -1 Eternal Witness for the 3 Wishes as rukcus posted and sometimes you miss one part of the combo with a Wish in hand, sometimes a starter, so I would maybe SB the Regal Force for one more mana elf, maybe (sure) a Quirion. But with this change, in a lot of games we will to play 2 Wishes to get access to RF and Emrakul (so may we need a 4th Wish?). Then the deck will be something like that:

8 Forest
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Birchlore Rangers
2 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Priest of Titania
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Living Wish
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
SB: 1 Eternal Witness
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Leyline of Lifeforce
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Viridian Shaman
SB: 1 Regal Force

What do you think about this change? I've cutted a Shaman in the SB for RF but I'm not sure about that.

[1maarten1]

I found viridian shaman just in the board to be working just fine. I did not find need to play an Eternal witness in the board, I advise you play a Masticore in that slot, to beat the creature-based hate (it has been working awesome for me).

Also, why is nobody using Ezuri, renegade leader as a 1 off in the maindeck? It has done sick things for me so far, for example: I cant combo off, but I drop 4-5 1 mana dudes, I go for a living wish into gaea's cradle, pact up ezuri activate his ability and smash with a 4/4 trample army. Sometimes I also pact into regal force but it depends on how the current board position looks.

Anyone saw the deck tech from Worlds? Combo elves was 4-0 (eventhough I find it a pretty weird list.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXAtTAmVw4g

~Maarten

[abel_lg]

¿Which list are you using? I'm only testing the list in pc not in real play and giving my opinion of how the deck works. Altough Eternal Witness is so useful, maybe you're right. Worst about him in this deck is the 3 mana cost, so added to the Wish cost, maybe a problem. Yes, best a Masticore in this slot. Also a second Joraga in SB for aggro mode? I mean, if you want put aggro mode and you don't find the maindeck one, wishing the SB one...

[1maarten1]

¿Which list are you using? I'm only testing the list in pc not in real play and giving my opinion of how the deck works. Altough Eternal Witness is so useful, maybe you're right. Worst about him in this deck is the 3 mana cost, so added to the Wish cost, maybe a problem. Yes, best a Masticore in this slot. Also a second Joraga in SB for aggro mode? I mean, if you want put aggro mode and you don't find the maindeck one, wishing the SB one...

Im using the following:
// land
14 Forest
1 Pendelhaven

// sorcery
4 glimpse of nature
3 living wish

// instant
4 summoner's pact

// creatures
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Birchlore Rangers

4 Llanowar Elves
2 Fyndhorn Elves

4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Quirion Ranger

4 Elvish Visionary

1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Regal Force
2 Elvish Archdruid
1 Elvish Spirit Guide

//sideboard
SB: 4 Choke
SB: 3 Vengevine
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Reverent Silence
Wish targets:
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 Masticore
SB: 1 Viridian Shaman
SB: 1 Gaea's Cradle

~Maarten

[Mr. Safety]

How many lands is everyone using currently? I've been using 15 forests (no fetchlands) and it's been working fine. What I'm thinking is that with a maximum amount of fetchlands, you can essentially dig out 2 lands every time you play one, making your combo turn go that much smoother.

Thoughts? Should I be using 8+ fetchlands along with my basic forests?

[k2thej]

I'm hesitating between adding a second Regal Force in the SB or let the main Regal Force in the SB. I proved with -1 Emrakul, -1 Viridan Shaman and -1 Eternal Witness for the 3 Wishes as rukcus posted and sometimes you miss one part of the combo with a Wish in hand, sometimes a starter, so I would maybe SB the Regal Force for one more mana elf, maybe (sure) a Quirion. But with this change, in a lot of games we will to play 2 Wishes to get access to RF and Emrakul (so may we need a 4th Wish?). Then the deck will be something like that:

8 Forest
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Birchlore Rangers
2 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Priest of Titania
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Living Wish
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
SB: 1 Eternal Witness
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Leyline of Lifeforce
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Viridian Shaman
SB: 1 Regal Force

What do you think about this change? I've cutted a Shaman in the SB for RF but I'm not sure about that.

I like most of the list. the most glaring change to me is that you should drop the 3 priests so you can have 4 quirion rangers. Try it, it will speed up your goldfish so much.

[k2thej]

How many lands is everyone using currently? I've been using 15 forests (no fetchlands) and it's been working fine. What I'm thinking is that with a maximum amount of fetchlands, you can essentially dig out 2 lands every time you play one, making your combo turn go that much smoother.

Thoughts? Should I be using 8+ fetchlands along with my basic forests?

Ya that is why I play 7 fetch and 6 forest. 13 lands is good for me. Sometimes I mull with no lands but it's infrequent. It really helps thin out the deck.

This is another reason to play 4 quirion ranger, It turns a llanowar and a forest into 4 mana if you have one land hand (which I usually do)

[Waikiki]

no wishable cradle?

[k2thej]

no wishable cradle?

There should def be a wishable cradle, forgot to mention that

[abel_lg]

...
Thoughts? Should I be using 8+ fetchlands along with my basic forests?

At least I suggest to play with 5 fetch, it's a reasonable mode of, at least, clean 2 slots with the 1st or 2nd land you play.

I must redesign my SB to include a Cradle. I don't play in a competitive environment, so the SB part which interests me most is the "wishable" one. I like Maarten list also, and I appreciate the idea of cutting Priests for Quirions, meybe a single one can remain in the main deck.

¿And what about Ezuri and ESG? We haven't speak about that. Obvious Ezuri is in the main as a backup aggro way of winning if we don't combo (also regenerate ability is useful) and ESG, will be enough with 1 or 2 only, more than that will be contraproducent. Which of you use one or more copies of Ezuri and ESG?

Also I will to thank all of you contributing this post, making this deck a viable way to play Legacy. It's a cheap deck, maybe not tier 1 but a great and cheap way to go to a Legacy tournament and have fun... Maybe with the past of the time and testing this deck can be a tier1 deck!

[Shabbaman]

I have to disagree that grapeshot is the best. While I still think Emrakul is the best wincon, the 2nd best is def tendrils. Mana is NEVER a problem, but getting to 10 spells instead of 20 sure makes things easier, and it gets around damage prevention, and you can cast it for less and make a huge life spread.

The downside of Tendrils is Teeg. Grapeshot can get rid of creatures. But that's a stretch. And I agree that the mana isn't the reason not to play Tendrils.

[NihilObstat]

no wishable cradle?

I'm kinda prefering Crop rotation, as you can get an untapped Cradle in turn two after comboing a bit and running out of mana, you spend G to get some extra 5 manas or so which is sweeet. Test it, I find it awesome :O

[k2thej]

I'm kinda prefering Crop rotation, as you can get an untapped Cradle in turn two after comboing a bit and running out of mana, you spend G to get some extra 5 manas or so which is sweeet. Test it, I find it awesome :O

Living wish= 1 noncreature card in main
cradle+crop rotation= 2 noncreature cards in main

you want to keep the noncreature card count as low as possible to maintain combo consistency, so the wishable cradle is the better option.

[SpikeyMikey]

So if you were playing BGW Rock and wanted to beat Elves combo, how would you do it? Would you load up on removal and try and slow the mana production? Load up on discard and try to fizzle them before they start? How useful is Pernicious Deed against you? How useful is Ethersworn Cannonist? If Nettle Sentinel gets Extirpated, how much does that hamper the deck?

[abel_lg]

Living wish= 1 noncreature card in main
cradle+crop rotation= 2 noncreature cards in main

you want to keep the noncreature card count as low as possible to maintain combo consistency, so the wishable cradle is the better option.

That's what I were thinking, maybe too much slots, with the past of the time the list of "untouchable slots" increase, but also... can we introduce Cradle in a Forest slot?

[Infinitium]

So if you were playing BGW Rock and wanted to beat Elves combo, how would you do it? Would you load up on removal and try and slow the mana production? Load up on discard and try to fizzle them before they start? How useful is Pernicious Deed against you? How useful is Ethersworn Cannonist? If Nettle Sentinel gets Extirpated, how much does that hamper the deck?

Definetly load up on creatures. You will lose the lategame eventually since Elves can outdraw you even with sweepers, so try to abuse the low land count and don't let them build up critical mass. Always kill the 1-drop if possible, get an early threat and sweep aggressively (it's mainly a tempo ting so don't get greedy). Land destructio is probably your best bet, so load up on Vindicates, Sinkholes and especially Smallpox (as every basic forest counts when repopulating the board). Discard is again meh overall, but if given the choice pick Wirewood Symniote first, then either mana or card draw depending on the situation. Deed is way slow on its own, but again gets better if you are aggressive about denying us a quick start. Be aware that Symbiote somewhat negates sweepers though. Canonist is Ok, but everyone will bring in Grip to help deal with it and Plague, and it doesn't stop the Lord backup plan on its own.

[SpikeyMikey]

Definetly load up on creatures. You will lose the lategame eventually since Elves can outdraw you even with sweepers, so try to abuse the low land count and don't let them build up critical mass. Always kill the 1-drop if possible, get an early threat and sweep aggressively (it's mainly a tempo ting so don't get greedy). Land destructio is probably your best bet, so load up on Vindicates, Sinkholes and especially Smallpox (as every basic forest counts when repopulating the board). Discard is again meh overall, but if given the choice pick Wirewood Symniote first, then either mana or card draw depending on the situation. Deed is way slow on its own, but again gets better if you are aggressive about denying us a quick start. Be aware that Symbiote somewhat negates sweepers though. Canonist is Ok, but everyone will bring in Grip to help deal with it and Plague, and it doesn't stop the Lord backup plan on its own.

Yeah, I've cut Plague completely from my board in favor of Dueling Grounds; it's more effective against Fish and completely hoses Goblins. I used to have EE's in board but those are gone now too with so little fast Zoo/Cat Sligh in the format. I was thinking maybe Cannonist would be good board but I'd rather semi-blank Grip if it's coming in. I might just have to suck it up as a bad M/U.

[k2thej]

That's what I were thinking, maybe too much slots, with the past of the time the list of "untouchable slots" increase, but also... can we introduce Cradle in a Forest slot?

The reasons I like the cradle in the board better is that my 13-land build usually only gets one land in the opening hand, and if it's cradle then you're screwed. You don't really need cradle until you combo anyway, which you can get with wish. It seems like the right play.

[NihilObstat]

Living wish= 1 noncreature card in main
cradle+crop rotation= 2 noncreature cards in main
you want to keep the noncreature card count as low as possible to maintain combo consistency, so the wishable cradle is the better option.

I substitute a basic forest for a cradle, so it doesn't count as an extra noncritter card, and it's working fine for me, sure you get once in 40 games a hand with 1 cradle, and no forest and you're screwed, but I've also won 10 games out of those 40 thanks exclusively to the G instant speed untapped craddle to go off.

[k2thej]

I substitute a basic forest for a cradle, so it doesn't count as an extra noncritter card, and it's working fine for me, sure you get once in 40 games a hand with 1 cradle, and no forest and you're screwed, but I've also won 10 games out of those 40 thanks exclusively to the G instant speed untapped craddle to go off.

And how many of those games would you have still won anyway with the wishable cradle?

[NihilObstat]

And how many of those games would you have still won anyway with the wishable cradle?

None of them, because I use rotation when I'm comboing with no Nettle or I haven't drawn the Heritage and only have Birchlore, so I'm really screwed with mana, then for 1 mana at instant speed you get an untapped extra cradle, which doesn't count as your "land per turn" which is how you would have to play it with wish.

This way, on turn 2 I can combo with 2 lands, and then get an extra cradle, untapped. With wish, I would have to wait one more turn, to play cradle on turn 3 or 4.

[abel_lg]

It seems it's a conflictive point. I think it depends so much on the number of lands you play. If you play 13 lands like k2thej it's a better way to have wishable Cradle than Crop Rotation + main Cradle, but if you play 15 maybe a version like NihilObstat is possible, altough I don't know how many lands he plays in his deck.

[k2thej]

Ya I think, again, crop rotation is another non-creature card that you really don't want to see while comboing if you don't need it

[NihilObstat]

It's just card choice. I play 15-16 lands, I know it's a lot, but I was playing 13 before and I had to mulligan way TOO much.

So, on another topic. What do you guys run in the sideboard? What are the general cards? Do you all play Jitte or not? Because I don't but maybe it's a good idea against control.

I also find it Impossible to beat something like Canadian threshold packing so many counters and lightning effects. What do you do against them? Jitte?

[abel_lg]

It's just card choice. I play 15-16 lands, I know it's a lot, but I was playing 13 before and I had to mulligan way TOO much.
...

I think so also, it's card choice. Maybe if you are good and patient when taking a mulligan to shuffle placing the discarded hand homogeneously in the deck to minimize the choice of no land draw you're more able to play a 13 land deck. Also some players will prefer have the risk of a no land mulligan than having an initial hand with 2 or 3 lands... Card choice: everyone must play with the deck version which is more comfortable for him within a similar deck shell inside the archetype.

Also I think Jitte doesn't fit in this deck like in aggro elves version. Against control, most players use Leylines, but if you play a lot against Canadian Thresold you will need to bear with lightnings. Maybe pack Leylines and a lord and go to an aggro win: if he doesn't draw enough lightning and you begin with Leyline, it's so possible to win.

[Mr. Safety]

Ya that is why I play 7 fetch and 6 forest. 13 lands is good for me. Sometimes I mull with no lands but it's infrequent. It really helps thin out the deck.

This is another reason to play 4 quirion ranger, It turns a llanowar and a forest into 4 mana if you have one land hand (which I usually do)

Thanks for the reply. It's amazing how many 2-land starting hands I've had with 15 lands, but I was always erring on the side of 2 lands is better than none. One is best, but topping a 2nd land on turns 3-4 aren't bad if you've already got the gas to combo out.

Yes, I use 4x Quirion Ranger. I think the only variation for my deck is that I'm still using Grapeshot as my win condition instead of emrakul, which means I don't use Living Wish/Gaea's Cradle/Priest of Titania and instead put 4x all of the utility creatures for the sake of consistency. My real upgrade would come from 3x Elvish Archdruid over Imperious Perfect, essentially giving me the maindeck lord I need for the aggro alternative win while also powering out Regal Force easier. I may switch over to Tendrils of Agony as a win/con with Archdruid, TBH. My experience without Priest of Titania/Elvish Archrdruid is that you don't typically have a lot of spare mana available while combo-ing out...but you can combo out in one turn. With Priest/Archrduid you can power out a lot more stuff (the main target being Emrakul)

[Mr. Safety]

So, on another topic. What do you guys run in the sideboard? What are the general cards? Do you all play Jitte or not? Because I don't but maybe it's a good idea against control.

I don't like Jitte against control. Jitte really shines in the aggro matchups, especially in mono-colored decks like Elves and Fish which traditionally don't splash for removal. It's the removal that Jitte brings that makes it so good in the matchups that count. This is just my experience...Jitte with an empty board is a wasted draw.

My current sideboard looks like this:

1x Vexing Shusher
1x Viridian Shaman
3x Winter Orb
4x Autumn's Veil
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Mindbreak Trap
1x Elvish Champion

[abel_lg]

...

3x Winter Orb
4x Autumn's Veil

...


I haven't seen this options in the SB but sounds well. Specially I thought in Autumn's Veil opening M11 boosters...

Winter Orb is marvellous, we only need a land to play out.

[bigbear102]

So when I saw Time Spiral coming off the banned list, the firsti thing I thought was High Tide combo, but then somebody mentioned there is no Academy to untap... but Elves has an Academy! This is the first iteration of the idea I had. I have tweaked it a bit, but it is no way optimal yet. Here's the list:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [ST] Forest (1)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [U] Tropical Island
2 [US] Gaea's Cradle

// Creatures
3 [EVG] Wirewood Symbiote
2 [FNM] Quirion Ranger
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [ALA] Elvish Visionary
2 [EVE] Regal Force
4 [EVE] Nettle Sentinel
4 [MOR] Heritage Druid
4 [ON] Birchlore Rangers
4 [DM] Fyndhorn Elves
4 [6E] Llanowar Elves

// Spells
2 [RAV] Cloudstone Curio
2 [MM] Land Grant
2 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Glimpse of Nature
4 [US] Time Spiral

I have been goldfishing turns 3-4 consistently, with turn 2 definitely an option sometimes. Crop Rotation is definitely correct in this deck because of the Spiral. You can shuffle and draw several times so saccing your first Cradle for the second and then repeating later is very possible. The Curio I stole from a recent SCG article and it has worked out pretty well. I noticed most games end with me having about 6 cards left in my library and casting Emrakul. Curio makes it possible to cast Emrakul several times in a turn so you can guarantee to get the 2 swings necessary for the wil. I do want another win condition but haven't figured out what would work well. A single Brain Freeze could work. I would probably have a man-plan in the board since this deck has no lords MD. Definitely test this deck out and see what you think. I think it's got potential, it's a lot more consistent than other elf combo I've tried in the past.

[abel_lg]

So when I saw Time Spiral coming off the banned list, the firsti thing I thought was High Tide combo, but then somebody mentioned there is no Academy to untap... but Elves has an Academy! This is the first iteration of the idea I had. I have tweaked it a bit, but it is no way optimal yet. Here's the list:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [ST] Forest (1)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [U] Tropical Island
2 [US] Gaea's Cradle

// Creatures
3 [EVG] Wirewood Symbiote
2 [FNM] Quirion Ranger
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [ALA] Elvish Visionary
2 [EVE] Regal Force
4 [EVE] Nettle Sentinel
4 [MOR] Heritage Druid
4 [ON] Birchlore Rangers
4 [DM] Fyndhorn Elves
4 [6E] Llanowar Elves

// Spells
2 [RAV] Cloudstone Curio
2 [MM] Land Grant
2 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Glimpse of Nature
4 [US] Time Spiral

I have been goldfishing turns 3-4 consistently, with turn 2 definitely an option sometimes. Crop Rotation is definitely correct in this deck because of the Spiral. You can shuffle and draw several times so saccing your first Cradle for the second and then repeating later is very possible. The Curio I stole from a recent SCG article and it has worked out pretty well. I noticed most games end with me having about 6 cards left in my library and casting Emrakul. Curio makes it possible to cast Emrakul several times in a turn so you can guarantee to get the 2 swings necessary for the wil. I do want another win condition but haven't figured out what would work well. A single Brain Freeze could work. I would probably have a man-plan in the board since this deck has no lords MD. Definitely test this deck out and see what you think. I think it's got potential, it's a lot more consistent than other elf combo I've tried in the past.

Doesn't need Summoner's Pact?

[bigbear102]

It may, but you have Regal force, Time Spiral, and glimpse to mini-combo and all 3 allow you to do so and recover without really hurting yourself, glimpse is the toughest to come back from because you can fizzle. Pact couldn't hurt, but I haven't missed it at all.

[AznSeal]

Do people still run NO+Prog?

[abel_lg]

Do people still run NO+Prog?

I think NO+Porg it's more suitable of the aggro version of Elves, as a second win condition, or in a Survival deck in the SB. In combo we must to maximize the slots to do the combo more reliable.

[NihilObstat]

...
3x Winter Orb
4x Autumn's Veil
...

WO - I prefer to use Thorn of Amethyst, which hurts combo
AV - Sounds great, I didn't remember it, I'll give it a try

[AznSeal]

one more question. ive been splashing black for thoughsieze and i think it's amazing. Is the splash recommended?

[(nameless one)]

one more question. ive been splashing black for thoughsieze and i think it's amazing. Is the splash recommended?
This. Also, if you sideboard to go aggro, wouldn't black help you?

[Koby]

Biggest problem with Autumn's Veil is that it does nothing against an active Counterbalance.

Both K-Grip and Leyline get around Counterbalance and allow you to switch plans or ignore the card.

[k2thej]

Biggest problem with Autumn's Veil is that it does nothing against an active Counterbalance.

Both K-Grip and Leyline get around Counterbalance and allow you to switch plans or ignore the card.

Ya, autumn's veil isn't worth playing.

[GGoober]

Why not Leyline of Lifeforce? 2GG isn't that tough to cast with the mana that this deck can produce. I guess they can still counter your glimpse, but maybe have a SB of aggro-elves with Leyline against blue decks? Is this deck capable of racing Tendrils-combo or do we accept that as a bad matchup?

[Koby]

@ Tendrils match-up:
It depends. If you run Thorns of Amethyst, then there's an outside shot that you might be able to slow them down enough to do your aggro plan going. I'm thinking that for this matchup specifically, I want to run Elvish Spirit Guide to accelerate any sort of plan. The half-turn makes a big different.

[Mr. Safety]

WO - I prefer to use Thorn of Amethyst, which hurts combo
AV - Sounds great, I didn't remember it, I'll give it a try

Winter Orb was a nod to the fact that I see a LOT more traditional decks (aggro and control) rather than combo. If I saw a lot more combo, Thorn is the way to go.

Autumn's Veil is narrow, but again, I was more worried about Perish and Force of Will than I was about Counterbalance, based on the decks I faced. The sideboard hasn't been updated in over a month.

I'm actually debating Gleeful Sabotage for artifact/enchantment hate. The hard copy can be countered with Counterbalance, but the copy cannot because it isn't played, but rather put directly onto the stack. They could still Force of Will it, but by that time you've only spent one card and you've made them use a functional TON of resources. At 2 mana, it's a little easier to pull off than Krosan Grip and still allow you to get a play in (like maybe Glimpse of Nature after they piss out their mana/Forces trying to hold off Gleeful Sabotage)

[Koby]

Autumn's Veil still does nothing against Perish. It is not useful for this deck.

[Mr. Safety]

Autumn's Veil still does nothing against Perish. It is not useful for this deck.

Duh. Thanks! I really noob-tarded that comment, lol.

How about Gleeful Sabotage? Anyone else eyeballing this card for sideboard hate?

[abel_lg]

Autumn's Veil still does nothing against Perish. It is not useful for this deck.

I agree with that but Autumn's Veil is valid for both blue and black menaces and it's so versatile... Mass removal is a problem, but I'm of the opinion that best thing to do is playing all (or almost all) in the turn we think we can combo out.

[k2thej]

I agree with that but Autumn's Veil is valid for both blue and black menaces and it's so versatile... Mass removal is a problem, but I'm of the opinion that best thing to do is playing all (or almost all) in the turn we think we can combo out.

Unless you are up against discard, you absolutely want to hold as many guys as you can until you combo, but autumn's veil still does not offer anything that leyline and fecundity don't already offer.

[Koplinchen]

I was thinking which deck to take for the new legacy after the bannings. Usually I play Enchantress of UW tempo. But some time ago I fell in love with the Elves! and I was expecting a lot of Merfolk decks - I belive that is one of the best MU.

It is relatively small but well known Prague tournament. Every Friday night we play 4 rounds - with first two taking dual.

I faced black re-animation, pox, belcher and dredge.

My permanent feeling was that I am going to die NOW but it didnt happpende and I won claming Volcanic Island.
It was a first time I played this deck so here are my points.
- thanks to k2thej for what has prooved to be as an amazingly stable and explosive list
- intuitive plays. I realy enjoyed playing it. Beautiful cards.
- you have some kind of vulnerable feeling but this deck is much more resilient than it seems.
- most of the time I won by sendidng my creatures into the red zone. It is actually fast aggro deck with combo secret plan.
- belcher is horrible matchup but winable thanks to their instability. First game I went off round two and in the second his belcher didnt kill me (6 damage) I Gripped it aggro him
- twice I wished I had viridian shaman main but I understand It would be often awful topdeck
- pox can cripple you round two with smallpox - quirion wins here
- Ioona is too much for this deck
- my main wincon is Emrakul - first game against belcher he scooped during my combo procedure when I was about to shuffle my deck for next game I realized Emrakul was last card in the deck - what if you need to kill him this turn? (he would topdeck LED and kill me...)


I do apologize for my english. Good luck with this deck, it is great! :)

[k2thej]

I was thinking which deck to take for the new legacy after the bannings. Usually I play Enchantress of UW tempo. But some time ago I fell in love with the Elves! and I was expecting a lot of Merfolk decks - I belive that is one of the best MU.

It is relatively small but well known Prague tournament. Every Friday night we play 4 rounds - with first two taking dual.

I faced black re-animation, pox, belcher and dredge.

My permanent feeling was that I am going to die NOW but it didnt happpende and I won claming Volcanic Island.
It was a first time I played this deck so here are my points.
- thanks to k2thej for what has prooved to be as an amazingly stable and explosive list
- intuitive plays. I realy enjoyed playing it. Beautiful cards.
- you have some kind of vulnerable feeling but this deck is much more resilient than it seems.
- most of the time I won by sendidng my creatures into the red zone. It is actually fast aggro deck with combo secret plan.
- belcher is horrible matchup but winable thanks to their instability. First game I went off round two and in the second his belcher didnt kill me (6 damage) I Gripped it aggro him
- twice I wished I had viridian shaman main but I understand It would be often awful topdeck
- pox can cripple you round two with smallpox - quirion wins here
- Ioona is too much for this deck
- my main wincon is Emrakul - first game against belcher he scooped during my combo procedure when I was about to shuffle my deck for next game I realized Emrakul was last card in the deck - what if you need to kill him this turn? (he would topdeck LED and kill me...)


I do apologize for my english. Good luck with this deck, it is great! :)


Glad the list is working for you! I agree with most of your comments. My main pointer is on your last comment, when Emrakul is the last card in the deck.

Once you get to the point in the combo where you can pretty much do anything you want, the only thing you have to worry about is if Emrakul is the VERY LAST card, which, with any win con you use, is the risk you will have to take. If Emrakul is anything but the last card you are totally fine. Also, if Emrakul is the last card, the only time that is a problem is if your opponent can kill you the next turn through all of your creatures.

Thus, as long as Emrakul isn't the last card at the same time as your opponent can kill you the next turn in a manor that avoids all your creatures, you're fine. Generally decks with storm and belcher are the only one that can do this. This occurs so rarely that it is not worth worrying about since even if it does happen you can sb for it game 2 (not to mention it is extremely unlikely that it will happen twice in the same round, so you'll probably win anyway). I do not think it is a huge concern, though it is annoying the few times that it does happen.

[Mr. Safety]

Once you get to the point in the combo where you can pretty much do anything you want, the only thing you have to worry about is if Emrakul is the VERY LAST card, which, with any win con you use, is the risk you will have to take.

Speaking of win/cons, I'm testing out Tendrils of Agony in my version instead of Grapeshot. We'll see how it goes.

I'm also curious about Predator Dragon as a 1-of in the sideboard, as it is auto-win in some matchups (Goblins, combo, anything that doesn't rely on spot removal really)

Thoughts?

[k2thej]

Speaking of win/cons, I'm testing out Tendrils of Agony in my version instead of Grapeshot. We'll see how it goes.

I'm also curious about Predator Dragon as a 1-of in the sideboard, as it is auto-win in some matchups (Goblins, combo, anything that doesn't rely on spot removal really)

Thoughts?

As I've pointed out many times previously, if you are going to storm, tendrils is the way to go.

Why predator dragon over emrakul? It seems like a less effective version of Emraukul.

[Mr. Safety]

As I've pointed out many times previously, if you are going to storm, tendrils is the way to go.

I don't really see a functional difference, other than the fact that I can concievably combo faster with a slightly less chance of fizzling mid-combo. If there is a time constraint (as in a real tournament) then Tendrils can be a way around that as well.


Why predator dragon over emrakul? It seems like a less effective version of Emraukul.

I forgot that Emrakul flies...I was looking for evasion. I'm in the middle of converting over to Elvish Archdruid x3-4 maindeck over Imperious Perfect also...this opens up Emrakul. I do NOT want to use Crop Rotation/Gaea's Cradle, but I think Elvish Archdruid is enough. I currently play 15 lands and 3 lords (Archdruid)...should I go14 lands and 4 EA's, or just go with 61 cards? I'd like to also play Emrakul maindeck x1 as well...giving me 2 win/cons (Tendrils & Emrakul)

[k2thej]

I don't really see a functional difference, other than the fact that I can concievably combo faster with a slightly less chance of fizzling mid-combo. If there is a time constraint (as in a real tournament) then Tendrils can be a way around that as well.



I forgot that Emrakul flies...I was looking for evasion. I'm in the middle of converting over to Elvish Archdruid x3-4 maindeck over Imperious Perfect also...this opens up Emrakul. I do NOT want to use Crop Rotation/Gaea's Cradle, but I think Elvish Archdruid is enough. I currently play 15 lands and 3 lords (Archdruid)...should I go14 lands and 4 EA's, or just go with 61 cards? I'd like to also play Emrakul maindeck x1 as well...giving me 2 win/cons (Tendrils & Emrakul)

Tendrils is better than grapeshot because you never have a mana problem but you sometimes have a fizzle problem. Tendrils is successful a higher percentage of the time.

I would play 14 lands, 3 archdruid, and one wincon (Emrakul). 14 lands is enough, and I found that 4 archdruids was too much.

[1maarten1]

Tendrils is better than grapeshot because you never have a mana problem but you sometimes have a fizzle problem. Tendrils is successful a higher percentage of the time.

Not true tbh.. Grapeshot is better. Period. You can just run eternal witness so you only have to ramp up to 8 storm, grapeshot can first hit hatebears and then the enemy (which is pretty huge). But I agree that living wish + emrakul is the better choice.

[Mr. Safety]

Well, I will soon have an Emrakul x1 + Elvish Archrduid x3 so I can start testing (I already have the Tendrils/Grapeshot handy. I am still using Grapeshot ATM...testing to see how often I fizzle out and whether Tendrils would have happened in it's place)

[Neil]

Since Survival of the Fittest got banned I can't go with my "haste elf combo"... I actually managed to get really good statistics with that build :(

k2thej could you show me your latest deck build? You just use emrakul as your win-con right?

[k2thej]

Since Survival of the Fittest got banned I can't go with my "haste elf combo"... I actually managed to get really good statistics with that build :(

k2thej could you show me your latest deck build? You just use emrakul as your win-con right?

My list really hasn't changed much. I am working the wishes in but havn't gotten a stable enough build yet. Soon though! I'll post it as soon as I have it.

[Koby]

I have tested the list (Living Wish) a bit on MTGO. Basically, it works well enough since if you can generate 15 mana to cast Emrakul, generating 17 isn't hard at all. Considering that Wish is a green spell, this actually makes no difference with 2 Nettle Sentinels out. The ability to get Eternal Witness to retrieve a Summoner's Pact is also very valuable. I've been impressed with it, as it cuts the bullshit out of the deck and into the sideboard.

Only caveat is that it eliminates the space available for certain matchups.

Linky:
(3rd list down)
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/1953978

[k2thej]

I have tested the list (Living Wish) a bit on MTGO. Basically, it works well enough since if you can generate 15 mana to cast Emrakul, generating 17 isn't hard at all. Considering that Wish is a green spell, this actually makes no difference with 2 Nettle Sentinels out. The ability to get Eternal Witness to retrieve a Summoner's Pact is also very valuable. I've been impressed with it, as it cuts the bullshit out of the deck and into the sideboard.

Only caveat is that it eliminates the space available for certain matchups.

Linky:
(3rd list down)
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/1953978



Ruckus- is it worth having a messenger main? I've never liked them.

How is Fauna Shaman working? I found her too slow.

Cutting the 4th visionary? Moving a Symbiote to board? Worth it?

Do you notice a difference in Priests/Archdruids? Have you seen any advantage to priests?

No Regal Force main?

Lot of questions but ya, trying to get this wish build as streamlined as my last one. Any time I see someone doing something different than I am I want to see how it is working for them.

[Koby]

I should point out the link is NOT to my list, but rather a list that has done well in a tournament setting.

I would not run Messenger/Shaman in my build.

[k2thej]

I should point out the link is NOT to my list, but rather a list that has done well in a tournament setting.

I would not run Messenger/Shaman in my build.

I agree whole heartedly

[Neil]

I think that priest is better than Archdruid. Since priest is 1cmc less than Archdruid, being able to play the priest turn 2 has a higher chance. I use priests in maindeck and have Archdruid in sideboard.

[kingofvestal]

Hi guys I was wondering if you could give me some advise on the list I've been playing.

Creatures:
Elvish Archdruid x 4
Priest of Titania x 4
Llanowar Elves x 3
Fyndhorn Elves x 3
Heritage Druid x 3
Elvish Spirit Guide x 4
Sylvan Messenger x 3
Elvish Visionary x 3
Quirion Ranger x 3
Wirewood Symbiote x 3
Joraga Warcaller x 3
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn x 1

Spells:
Glimpse of Nature x 4
Concordant Crossroads x 2

Artifacts:
Staff of Domination x 2
Cloudstone Curio x 2

Lands:
Forest x 13

Sideboard:
Elvish Champion x 1
Vexing Shusher x 2
Thorn of Amethyst x 3
Krosan Grip x 4
Brittle Effigy x 2
Relic of Progenitus x 2
Tormod's Crypt x 1

Feedback is appreciated. Thanks

[k2thej]

I think that priest is better than Archdruid. Since priest is 1cmc less than Archdruid, being able to play the priest turn 2 has a higher chance. I use priests in maindeck and have Archdruid in sideboard.

You can almost always play archdruid turn 2. I don't know I feel like other creatures that are helpful the turn they come in are better than a lord's spot, but it is necessary, so if you have a mana lord and a lord in the same card it seems like a no brainer.

[Mr. Safety]

You can almost always play archdruid turn 2. I don't know I feel like other creatures that are helpful the turn they come in are better than a lord's spot, but it is necessary, so if you have a mana lord and a lord in the same card it seems like a no brainer.

Agreed, Priest of Titania does NOTHING for your alternative win/condition, which is a pile of boosted elves. I strongly support a lord maindeck, and Elvish Archdruid is nothing short of perfect for elves combo. I gives the same mana boost that Priest does, but also provides a lord boost so you can beat face. I've had games where it was literally faster to just attack their life total down than wait for a Glimpse to show up. It's what gives the deck so much balls...it's fast either way you win, most likely a turn 3-4 win in most games (unless you lose, lol.) Archdruid is the best choice, period. You're playing 8 Llanowar Elves (Llanowar/Fyndhorn). Your chances of a turn 2 Archdruid are just as good as a turn 2 Priest of Titania. (just echoing what k2thej said really...repetition for emphasis)

[UberNewHacks]

But what if your Crop Rotation -> Cradle meets Wasteland and your one land hand is instantly worthless and you lose?

[k2thej]

But what if your Crop Rotation -> Cradle meets Wasteland and your one land hand is instantly worthless and you lose?

This is one of the reasons I don't play crop rotation. Also, once elves are out it doesn't really matter if you lose one land. The reason I have loved this deck for so long is that it is so resilient to almost any obstacle. Playing crop rotation removes spots for one drop creatures, risks wasteland, and would rarely be better than having almost any other card in the deck. It's not for my build.

[Mr. Safety]

This is one of the reasons I don't play crop rotation. Also, once elves are out it doesn't really matter if you lose one land. The reason I have loved this deck for so long is that it is so resilient to almost any obstacle. Playing crop rotation removes spots for one drop creatures, risks wasteland, and would rarely be better than having almost any other card in the deck. It's not for my build.

Testify.

Ditto.

[NihilObstat]

But what if your Crop Rotation -> Cradle meets Wasteland and your one land hand is instantly worthless and you lose?

It doesn't matter. Cradle will either make you combo or help you fill the table up so much that you really won't care about lands, and if you are glimpsing, you will refill your hand of lands fast enough. You should never Crop for Cradle except when you are glimpsing or need to pay Regal Force, or tutor Regal, etc...

By the way, when you are comboing if Cradle is already in your hand you can always Crop for a Fetchland, and break Fetch, so you reduce 2 spots in your library, and if you are playing multicolor sideboard, you can get different colors of mana at instant speed.



On a different Topic:

Do you guys prefer going Leylie of Lifeforce to go aggro against control, or going Vexing Shusher to keep comboing anyway ?

How do you guys beat Canadian Threshold it is my most hated nightmarish pairing for this deck :S



Also:

These are my two top8s with Elves combo at the only Legacy events I play once a month. I know it's not too much people, but monoblack (tourach), and ANT really make me suffer every time. Comments on deck list? I play different finishers, because this deck so frequently fizzled while comboing so that way I can win even if I haven't reached 20 spells or 15 mana. By the way the combination of Eternal Witness + Mirror Entity + Wirewood symbiote is really CRAZY.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5403&iddeck=39160
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5350&iddeck=38702

[Koby]

Your first link only shows 2 Thorn of Amethyst. The 2nd link shows 0.

This card is key in beating spell-based strategies, including but not limited to: Pox, Landstill, ANT, Belcher, and the like.
If you have extra sideboard space, I also recommend boarding 2-3 Elvish Spirit Guide, as playing Thorns on turn 1 is very helpful. It also sometimes lets you go off half a turn sooner.

[k2thej]

Your first link only shows 2 Thorn of Amethyst. The 2nd link shows 0.

This card is key in beating spell-based strategies, including but not limited to: Pox, Landstill, ANT, Belcher, and the like.
If you have extra sideboard space, I also recommend boarding 2-3 Elvish Spirit Guide, as playing Thorns on turn 1 is very helpful. It also sometimes lets you go off half a turn sooner.

I agree on the thorn but I'm not sure if the guides are worth the extra space. If you had 4 thorn and 4 guide in your sideboard you have a 40% chance of getting a thorn in your opening hand, and less than a 17% chance of getting both. After your opening hand against the matchups you listed, you don't need this two card "combo" anymore. So this will only help you 17% of the time and only against the decks that thron is viable against. I say just take the 40% chance of getting the thorn and then use the sb space for cards that can hold up against other decks on their own. It is always best for cards to not be dependent on eachother unless they offer some really good combo, and without thorn I think spirit guide is not worth it considering it is a dead card in anything but your opening hand.

[NihilObstat]

Your first link only shows 2 Thorn of Amethyst. This card is key in beating spell-based strategies, including but not limited to: Pox, Landstill, ANT, Belcher, and the like.

I know, but I couldn't fit the others in, which I should have.

I should have taken out the Burning Wish + Lots of sorceries from the sideboard out which is my Super Secret Ninja Tech which is totally not worth it, but I wanted to kill with Byorhythm so much. Although, Slave of Bolas was the only card able to win me a match against Dredge. I got fizzled while doing the combo, give him turn he resurrects Iona into green and smiles, saying it's my game. So I go, and he starts frightening. I Wish into Slave, make Iona into my evil Slave without "playing any green", and then beat for an aggro win.

Now I have 3 more spots in the sideboard and it's looking like:
4x Thorn of amethyst
4x Krosan grip or (1x Leyline of lifeforce)
2x Relic of progenitus or (Leyline of lifeforce)
Yixlid Jailer
Harmonic Sliver
Burrenton Forge tender
Vexing Shusher or (Leyline of lifeforce)
Dauntless Escort

[k2thej]

I know, but I couldn't fit the others in, which I should have.

I should have taken out the Burning Wish + Lots of sorceries from the sideboard out which is my Super Secret Ninja Tech which is totally not worth it, but I wanted to kill with Byorhythm so much. Although, Slave of Bolas was the only card able to win me a match against Dredge. I got fizzled while doing the combo, give him turn he resurrects Iona into green and smiles, saying it's my game. So I go, and he starts frightening. I Wish into Slave, make Iona into my evil Slave without "playing any green", and then beat for an aggro win.

Now I have 3 more spots in the sideboard and it's looking like:
4x Thorn of amethyst
4x Krosan grip or (1x Leyline of lifeforce)
2x Relic of progenitus or (Leyline of lifeforce)
Yixlid Jailer
Harmonic Sliver
Burrenton Forge tender
Vexing Shusher or (Leyline of lifeforce)
Dauntless Escort

One big advantage to this deck is that it can race GY decks, so we don't need GY hate slots in the board. I would recomment 4 thorn, 4 grip, 4 leyline, 3 fecundity. Thats the best board I have come up with so far, though I am sure it could be better.

[Neil]

Hi guys I was wondering if you could give me some advise on the list I've been playing.

Creatures:
Elvish Archdruid x 4
Priest of Titania x 4
Llanowar Elves x 3
Fyndhorn Elves x 3
Heritage Druid x 3
Elvish Spirit Guide x 4
Sylvan Messenger x 3
Elvish Visionary x 3
Quirion Ranger x 3
Wirewood Symbiote x 3
Joraga Warcaller x 3
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn x 1

Spells:
Glimpse of Nature x 4
Concordant Crossroads x 2

Artifacts:
Staff of Domination x 2
Cloudstone Curio x 2

Lands:
Forest x 13

Sideboard:
Elvish Champion x 1
Vexing Shusher x 2
Thorn of Amethyst x 3
Krosan Grip x 4
Brittle Effigy x 2
Relic of Progenitus x 2
Tormod's Crypt x 1

Feedback is appreciated. Thanks

Since nobody else helped him I guess i'll do it xD

Okay first off all the deck list seems like you haven't deiced wether to play Aggro or Combo elves... If you do decide to go combo, elves take out
2 Joraga Warcallers 1 is good enough. Why aren't you running 4 nettle sentinels?? They are what make heritage druid worth while and pretty much the back bone for combo elves. Take out the Artifacts and Concordant Crossroad and instead put in 4 Summoner's Pact, 1 regal force, and 1 more Lanowar. Also don't run Sylvan Messenger they put Glimpses and good non-elf cards at the bottom of your deck.... Make sure you have 4 of Quirion, Wirewood, and Visionary.

[k2thej]

Since nobody else helped him I guess i'll do it xD

Okay first off all the deck list seems like you haven't deiced wether to play Aggro or Combo elves... If you do decide to go combo, elves take out
2 Joraga Warcallers 1 is good enough. Why aren't you running 4 nettle sentinels?? They are what make heritage druid worth while and pretty much the back bone for combo elves. Take out the Artifacts and Concordant Crossroad and instead put in 4 Summoner's Pact, 1 regal force, and 1 more Lanowar. Also don't run Sylvan Messenger they put Glimpses and good non-elf cards at the bottom of your deck.... Make sure you have 4 of Quirion, Wirewood, and Visionary.

Sooo basically run my list that a lot of people are running:




4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact

6 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs


Anyone else have a variant of this using with they want to post? I'd like to see other ideas on how to integrate it. As awesome as it is conceptually, I haven't found a build with a better average goldfish yet.

[(nameless one)]

Hey k2thej,

What happened at the Living Wish variant?

[k2thej]

Hey k2thej,

What happened at the Living Wish variant?

Still working on it. As I said above, I haven't found a build with a better average goldfish than my previous build yet.

[ummon]

Still working on it. As I said above, I haven't found a build with a better average goldfish than my previous build yet.

But Elves combo goes off usually on turn 3. That's fast enough to beat all aggro decks. I'd think a list running Living Wish would be preferable even if it is a tad bit slower because it gives you access to wishboard answers against problem cards like Counterbalance. Especially game 1, wishes are great in combo decks because of their flexibility.

[Neil]

Here is my deck-list. It is slightly different than k2thej's list. I personally think it would be slightly faster than his, but because I don't run Archdruid I won't have a good enough aggro fall back game 1. If Survival wasn't banned, my old deck list was gold-fishing 32% turn 2, 64% turn 3, and 4% turn 5. I tried about 35 gold-fishes.


1 Viridian Shama
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Lanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Eternal Witness
3 Birchlore Rangers
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Priest of Titania
1 Joraga Warcalller
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
1 Emrakul, the aeons torn

Lands:

2 Gaea's Cradle
8 Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs


I would run more fetch lands if it wasn't for budget restrictions :frown:

I'll be playing in the SCG San Jose open tomorrow. So i'll try to post a tournament report afterwards.

[k2thej]

Here is my deck-list. It is slightly different than k2thej's list. I personally think it would be slightly faster than his, but because I don't Archdruid I won't have a good enough aggro fall back game 1.


1 Viridian Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Lanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Eternal Witness
3 Birchlore Rangers
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Priest of Titania
1 Joraga Warcalller
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
1 Emrakul, the aeons torn

Lands:

2 Gaea's Cradle
8 Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs


I would run more fetch lands if it wasn't for budget restrictions :frown:

I'll be playing in the SCG San Jose open tomorrow. So i'll try to post a tournament report afterwards.

It's a pretty good list. You need one of the eleven non-cradle lands in your opening hand though, which is very risky. It's your call but I highly recommend archdruid.

[Neil]

It's a pretty good list. You need one of the eleven non-cradle lands in your opening hand though, which is very risky. It's your call but I highly recommend archdruid.

Yeah it is risky, but I haven't had to mull that often because of it and it has given me many turn 2 combos.

[k2thej]

I do like being risky...I just minimized the lands in my deck as much as I could while keeping it functional. If you can make it work with 11 non cradles though, more power to ya.

[Lieselotte]

Hey,

here ist my Decklist:

Lands:

13 Forest


Creatures (35):

3 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Priest of Titania
4 Quirion Ranger
3 Wirewood Symbiote


Spells (12):

1 Brain Freeze
3 Concordant Crossroads
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact


---

Sideboard:

4 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tormod's Cript
3 Elvish Archdruid


Meta is changing from Survival, Dredge and TES to Couterbalance, Meerfolk and some other Control and Aggro Decks.

[k2thej]

Woo! Alright so I finally think my wish build is at least post worthy, though certainly not final. Here is where I am currently at. Wish has helped a lot. Lets start the conversation!


4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Living Wish
4 Summoner's Pact

6 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

SB:
1 Caller of the Claw
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Eternal Witness
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
1 Masticore
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Viridian Shaman

[Neil]

Woo! Alright so I finally think my wish build is at least post worthy, though certainly not final. Here is where I am currently at. Wish has helped a lot. Lets start the conversation!


4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Living Wish
4 Summoner's Pact

6 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

SB:
1 Caller of the Claw
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Eternal Witness
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
1 Masticore
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Viridian Shaman



List looks good. As soon as I get back from the tournament tomorrow I'll try working on my own build.
I have one comment on the list though. Do you think making the main win con susceptible to counter spells is okay? What I mean is because you have to use living wish to find emrakul. Living wish can be countered and you won't be able to get emrakul.

[k2thej]

List looks good. As soon as I get back from the tournament tomorrow I'll try working on my own build.
I have one comment on the list though. Do you think making the main win con susceptible to counter spells is okay? What I mean is because you have to use living wish to find emrakul. Living wish can be countered and you won't be able to get emrakul.

If they have a counterspell, they will use it on glimpse, so if they let you get to Emrakul they got nothing.

[Waikiki]

Wouldn't you play a regal force side aswell? Perhaps a vexing shusher would be nice aswell

[voltron00x]

This is a version I've been testing based on what I've seen on MTGO. Genesis Wave is really insane, much better than I anticipated.


4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Forest
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Summoner's Pact
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Elvish Visionary
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Genesis Wave
1 Regal Force
1 Priest of Titania

[k2thej]

The shusher you don't need because your turn into an aggro deck with the leylines if you play a deck with heavy counters or countertop.

The regal force in the board was a thought but I found that I never wished it was there. I think I will test it more though. Regal force is good because it is 7 mana, making it 9 might lose its value, maybe not though, I'll keep testing.

[Shabbaman]

If they have a counterspell, they will use it on glimpse, so if they let you get to Emrakul they got nothing.

If they know the deck they could counter Living Wish and you'd be relegated to the aggro backup plan.


This is a version I've been testing based on what I've seen on MTGO. Genesis Wave is really insane, much better than I anticipated.


4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Forest
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Summoner's Pact
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Elvish Visionary
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Genesis Wave
1 Regal Force
1 Priest of Titania

What's the plan here, belch up enough Elves to chain Genesis Waves and get your whole deck on the board?

[k2thej]

[QUOTE=Shabbaman;514888]If they know the deck they could counter Living Wish and you'd be relegated to the aggro backup plan.

QUOTE]


If they let us combo until the living wish for Emrakul, in all likelyhood, they will probably lose anyway. They're highest priority is to stop us from comboing. They won't hold a counter through the entire combo while you fill the board with a million elves just to stop you from getting Emrakul, they will try to stop you're combo before it starts. I really don't think it's an issue.

[Shabbaman]

I agree it's not the most likely scenario to get your wish countered...

[voltron00x]

Shabbaman – Yea, the idea is that Genesis Wave is sort of like Glimpse 5-7. Using just Archdruid, you can power out huge Waves on turn 3. I have waved for 9 on turn 3, and have hard-cast Emrakul on turn 4. Wave into Emrakul ends the game. I added an Eternal Witness to the list also, since that is an insane Wave target (as it rebuys the Wave). As long as you hit anything to untap your existing Archdruid, Wave will win you the game. Its an interesting way to make the deck less all-in on Glimpse without relying on spells from another color (like the Elves decks from 1-16 in San Jose did).

[k2thej]

Shabbaman – Yea, the idea is that Genesis Wave is sort of like Glimpse 5-7. Using just Archdruid, you can power out huge Waves on turn 3. I have waved for 9 on turn 3, and have hard-cast Emrakul on turn 4. Wave into Emrakul ends the game. I added an Eternal Witness to the list also, since that is an insane Wave target (as it rebuys the Wave). As long as you hit anything to untap your existing Archdruid, Wave will win you the game. Its an interesting way to make the deck less all-in on Glimpse without relying on spells from another color (like the Elves decks from 1-16 in San Jose did).

Why set up your deck to put out a wave of guys on turn three for a turn four win if you can set it up to win on turn two or three without genesis wave? Seems like a version of the build where the only difference is it's a turn slower. I might be missing something but I don't see any advantages.

[1maarten1]

Green Sun's Zenith XG
Sorcery (R)
Search your library for a green creature card with converted mana cost X or less and put it onto the battlefield. Shuffle Green Sun's Zenith into its owner's library.

If this is real it will be the nuts in here. Replacement for Pact? Costs only 1 mana more, and doesnt have the nasty upkeep effect.

Edit: Its real.

New list?? No pact, 4 Zenith and a nice toolbox of green in the MD? Living wish might be unneeded now?

[k2thej]

Green Sun's Zenith XG
Sorcery (R)
Search your library for a green creature card with converted mana cost X or less and put it onto the battlefield. Shuffle Green Sun's Zenith into its owner's library.

If this is real it will be the nuts in here. Replacement for Pact? Costs only 1 mana more, and doesnt have the nasty upkeep effect.

Edit: Its real.

New list?? No pact, 4 Zenith and a nice toolbox of green in the MD? Living wish might be unneeded now?

Seems pretty sweet- a better chord of calling. I think Summoner's Pact is still better since it is free during combo without the worry of paying the cost after. Still, it might be worth playing 2 of or something.

[NihilObstat]

Green Sun's Zenith XG
Sorcery (R)
Search your library for a green creature card with converted mana cost X or less and put it onto the battlefield. Shuffle Green Sun's Zenith into its owner's library.
New list?? No pact, 4 Zenith and a nice toolbox of green in the MD? Living wish might be unneeded now?

It's not better than wish, because 1 mana really counts for this decks when starting to combo, but it is definitely and improved Chord of Calling which is a card I was running in my list, although I used it to get non-green creatures (Burrenton forge-tender,Yixlid Jailer) into the field at instant speed, which this doesn't do either...
This thing is insanely good anyway.


On another topic:
I have tested the Emrakul list and I just really don't know why don't you guys also run a 2nd win-con, Tendrils/Grapeshot/Concordant crossroads, because this deck gets fizzled so many times while comboing and with only 1 win-con that has to pop up by itself and needs 15 spare mana you are risking your wining chances too much.
k2thej list also seems to rely heavily on an uncountered Glimpse for game one.

[k2thej]

It's not better than wish, because 1 mana really counts for this decks when starting to combo, but it is definitely and improved Chord of Calling which is a card I was running in my list, although I used it to get non-green creatures (Burrenton forge-tender,Yixlid Jailer) into the field at instant speed, which this doesn't do either...
This thing is insanely good anyway.


On another topic:
I have tested the Emrakul list and I just really don't know why don't you guys also run a 2nd win-con, Tendrils/Grapeshot/Concordant crossroads, because this deck gets fizzled so many times while comboing and with only 1 win-con that has to pop up by itself and needs 15 spare mana you are risking your wining chances too much.
k2thej list also seems to rely heavily on an uncountered Glimpse for game one.

Ya good point that the card is a sorcery, I didn't notice that.

An uncountered glimpse certainly is a plus but my list's aggro capabilities are also really good. I feel like some people testing my list might not be paying it right...I can combo turn 2 1/3 of the time, turn 3 1/3 of the of the time, and almost always swing lethal on turn 4 if the first two don't happen. This deck hardly ever fizzles. Ever. You just have to play it right.

I'm not trying to defend my build because it's my build, but I've tested almost every conceivable card for this deck and this list is by far the fastest and most consistent (and resilient).

The aggro plan IS the second win condition, and it is extremely effective considering it's a backup plan. I'd actually venture to say that it is the most effective back up plan any legacy deck has ever had. Ya, I said it.

Also, as for counters, even if you lose to a blue control or top game one, board out the glimpses for leylines, and the three wishes for ezuri, shaman, and cradle and it is reeeeeally freggin hard to lose. you literally have an uncounterable deck (aside from summoner's pact). Control is not a concern after game 1.

[voltron00x]

Why set up your deck to put out a wave of guys on turn three for a turn four win if you can set it up to win on turn two or three without genesis wave? Seems like a version of the build where the only difference is it's a turn slower. I might be missing something but I don't see any advantages.

The advantage is you can only play 4 Glimpse of Nature. This is Glimpse 5, 6, and 7.

[k2thej]

Genesis wave is not glimpse. You do not keep drawing after the creatures come out. If you see a glimpse, you lose it since it's not a creature. It's the same reason that sylvan messenger is bad in this deck. It's essentially the same mechanic just bigger. Sylvan messenger is more cost efficient than wave and it's still not good.

[voltron00x]

Genesis wave is not glimpse. You do not keep drawing after the creatures come out. If you see a glimpse, you lose it since it's not a creature. It's the same reason that sylvan messenger is bad in this deck. It's essentially the same mechanic just bigger. Sylvan messenger is more cost efficient than wave and it's still not good.

So that post makes one thing obvious: You haven't played with Wave. Wave usually wins you the game if it resolves. When you're waving for 6+ on turn 3, you usually win. If you do so with a Pact in hand, then you can untap with any Symbiote or Ranger you get into play, and Pact for Regal Force to draw a huge chunk of cards so that you can Glimpse out or Wave out. If you have Eternal Witness in your deck and Wave into Witness, then you can rebuy Wave and cast it again. And if none of those things happen, its like you just played a personal draw XXX exept those cards all went into play, and you still have whatever you had in hand before the Wave. Saying its comparable to Sylvan Messenger is just silly. At least test the card before you dismiss it that easily.

If you're willing to just play 4 Glimpse and hope for the best, have fun, but those versions haven't done squat in large, real-life Legacy events, whereas builds with a back-up plan (see this past weekends SCG Open for a different back-up plan to Glimpse) are at least able to compete.

[k2thej]

The only reason my build hasn't done anything yet is because I don't have a lot of time to play in tournaments. I have played it in one major tournament, and was ONE GAME away from top 8-ing at the ginormous SCG open. One. Flippin. Game. Worst part? I lost that game by a turn after surviving being attached by Emrakul.

Anywho enough of my sob story. I will test wave again since you feel strongly about it, but please try my build again. It's the most efficient possible right now, I promise.

[voltron00x]

Fair enough. I'll give Messenger another shot.

[k2thej]

Nooo haha thats not what I mean. Messenger isn't good! Don't do that haha. I mean't that I don't like messenger and therefore don't like wave. Also, I just edited my post.

I guess what I'm saying is that my deck obviously tries to find glimpse, and when played right, it almost always will. Since messenger doesn't help you find it, I don't like it. Since I maximize my one drop count I don't have to worry about creature advantage so messenger isn't advantageous to me.

[voltron00x]

That's ok, I wasn't really going to try Messenger :)

[arebennian]

What do you all think of the builds that hit top 16 at SJ?

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5497
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5497&iddeck=39799
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5497&iddeck=39798

[k2thej]

What do you all think of the builds that hit top 16 at SJ?

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5497
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5497&iddeck=39799
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5497&iddeck=39798

I'm not really a fan of the vengevine build...it's a different deck.

[Koby]

I saw the deck in action, and was impressed with Intuition/VV strategy for the maindeck.

I'm still not sold on Brainstorm, as it diminishes the Glimpse plan. Truly it's hard to evaluate how the deck operates since most of the time I saw Hatch just run out Intuition/VV and utilize the extra mana from Gaea's Cradle to power out 3 VV's as early as turn 2.

[ummon]

What do you all think of the builds that hit top 16 at SJ?

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5497
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5497&iddeck=39799
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5497&iddeck=39798

I prefer my brother's deck which lost to those decks on tiebreakers xD.

[arebennian]

I prefer my brother's deck which lost to those decks on tiebreakers xD.

Which happens to be...

[Mr. Safety]

On another topic:
I have tested the Emrakul list and I just really don't know why don't you guys also run a 2nd win-con, Tendrils/Grapeshot/Concordant crossroads, because this deck gets fizzled so many times while comboing and with only 1 win-con that has to pop up by itself and needs 15 spare mana you are risking your wining chances too much.
k2thej list also seems to rely heavily on an uncountered Glimpse for game one.

I run Tendrils/Grapeshot (testing both...Tendrils requires more untapped elves, Grapeshot needs a higher storm count) with an aggro 2nd win/con. If you use Emrakul + Grapeshot, you're actually playing THREE win/cons, and that just doesn't seem smart. Swapping win/cons out in the sideboard against certain matchups may be viable, but running 3 maindeck could possibly water down the deck too much. I have a hard time finding sideboard room ANYWAYS, as every card removed makes the deck slightly sub-optimal, just so you have a chance to hate out your opponent and have a slightly better chance of winning. This is combo, after all...hard to sideboard, and it needs to be uber-focused in the maindeck. The only change I'm considering is getting down to 14 lands maindeck (currently using 15) and squeezing in a 4th Archdruid or possibly a 5th tutor (this new-fangled Green Sun's Zenith, Chord of Calling, or even possibly Primal Command...the chance of gaining life/ halting tempo while digging out Regal Force seems good against certain matchups)

[ummon]

Which happens to be...


Here is my deck-list. It is slightly different than k2thej's list. I personally think it would be slightly faster than his, but because I don't run Archdruid I won't have a good enough aggro fall back game 1. If Survival wasn't banned, my old deck list was gold-fishing 32% turn 2, 64% turn 3, and 4% turn 5. I tried about 35 gold-fishes.


1 Viridian Shama
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Lanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Eternal Witness
3 Birchlore Rangers
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Priest of Titania
1 Joraga Warcalller
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
1 Emrakul, the aeons torn

Lands:

2 Gaea's Cradle
8 Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs


I would run more fetch lands if it wasn't for budget restrictions :frown:

I'll be playing in the SCG San Jose open tomorrow. So i'll try to post a tournament report afterwards.

[(nameless one)]

Green Sun's Zenith? I dont know if you guys saw that card (if not, here it is: Green Sun's Zenith (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=114212&d=1295289915))

Can that be utilized in this deck? I'm going to try it using rukcus's old list (the list with Survival of the Fittest, replacing Anger and Masked Admirers with it)

Has anyone thought about that card?

[Neil]

Okay so here is my first tournament report...

I got 18th at the SCG San Jose (http://http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19372-01-15-11-01-16-11-Starcitygames-com-Open-Weekend-San-Jose) with 18 points (6-2). I was tied for 11th place but dropped all the way down due to bad tie-breaker.

My deck list:

Main Deck:


1 Viridian Shama
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Lanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Eternal Witness
3 Birchlore Rangers
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Priest of Titania
1 Joraga Warcalller
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
1 Emrakul, the aeons torn

Spells:

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact

Lands:

2 Gaea's Cradle
8 Forest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills


Side Board


4 Krosan Grip
4 Elvish Archdruid
2 Joraga Warcaller
2 Elvish Champion
3 Tormod's Crpyt




Round 1 Playing Burn (2-0) 3 pts

Normally I would say this in a bad match-up but his burn deck was in my opinion slightly under-optimized

Game 1.

He wins die-roll. On my second turn I tried comboing off but I fizzled. On turn 3 I combo off again and Fizzle, I drew into four lands!! By the end of his turn 4 he puts me down to 9 life. By this time I had a bunch of elves out so I played Joraga kicked twice and killed him.

Game 2

He plays goblin guide turn 1 and puts me down to 18. On my turn, I play Lanowar elves. Turn 2 he hits me again with goblin guide and plays two lava spikes putting me down to 10. On my second turn I play Gaea's cradle and combo off playing Emrakul for the win.



Round 2 playing UB Merfolk (2-0) 6 pts

He lost game 1 automatically because there was some problem with the deck-list he turned in. I was really lucky because for game 2 the judge said we couldn't sideboard. He was running perish and engineered plague in his sideboard.

Game 1

Automatic win for me.

Game 2

He really couldn't do anything. He tried to stop me from comboing off with curse catcher but failed. I played emrakul for the win. He didn't even manage to do any damage to me!


Round 3 playing Bant (0-2) 6 pts.

Game 1

There was really nothing I could do he forced twice and used Sword to plowshares to kill all my creatures.

Game 2

This game was even worse! He had daze, force, and swords to plowshares. After a few turns he plays a Goyf and kills me.


Round 4 playing U Merfolk (2-0) 9 pts

Because he wasn't playing Ub Merfolk he didn't have many cards to sideboard against me. So this was an easy matchup despite my bad hand.

Game 1

Turn 3 I had 6 elves down and right after I play regal force he scoops....

Game 2

I side boarded in all my lords and took out the all the Glimpses, Viridian shaman, 1 Priest, and 1 Wirewood

I mulled down to 6. In my second hand I had no summoner's pacts, regal force, or lords. I was hopping I would draw into a lord so I kept the hand. Despite not drawing into any lords after I played all my elves I managed to swarm him with 1/1 elves. This win was really close in fact if he had played correctly he might have been able to beat me. I won the game with 1 life remaining.


Round 5 playing I don't know... (2-0) 12 pts

Game 1

I really don't remember what happened in this game I just remember I played Emrakul.

Game 2

All I remember is playing Joraga kicked 4 times and killing him...


Round 6 UBW merfolk (1-2) 12 pts

Game 1

Game 1 was really easy since he couldn't sideboard. I played Emrakul turn 4 and won. I do remember having to play around a few counters and a force. Against merfolk I would suggest not keeping a hand with only one way to go off since your opponent will almost always force that. Also try to keep allot of mana open to pay for daze and spell pierce.

Game 2

I replaced the 4 summoner's pact, 4 glimpse of nature, viridian shaman, wire wood, Quirion rangers, and priest with all the lords and 4 Krosan Grip.

I am quite sure he put in 1 Umezawa's Jitte, 4 engineered plagues, 3 perishes, 1 sword of fire and ice, and 2 Stoneforge mystic.

He perishes me twice and pretty much slaughters me.

Game 3

This one was really close. I got a good early lead with joraga kicked twice and a bunch of elves out. He played Stoneforge mystic searching for a Umezawa's Jitte I Krosan Griped it. He played a Commander and starts leveling him. I attacked him loosing a bunch of my elves but making him block with commander which was only a 3/3. He plays another Stoneforge mystic with aether vial searching for Swords of fire and ice. I destroyed the Vial with my Grip instead of destroying Fire and ice. I have no clue why I did that..... After that I pretty much lost my tempo and he kills me. I did get him down to 2 life however. Umezawa's Jitte and Swords of fire and ice are really good against elves since they can spot remove your creatures. Krosan griping the first Jitte saved me from loosing right then and if I had Krosan griped the swords of fire and ice I might have been able to win the game.

Round 7 Playing affinity (2-0) 15 pts

Game 1

All I remember is using Joraga kicked 4 times for the kill.

game 2

This game was really interesting. I didn't sideboard in anything.

He plays a bunch of artifacts turn 1. On his turn two all I have out is a lanowar elves so he swings for a total of 7 damage. on my second turn I play a nettle and one more elf. His turn 3 he uses Ornithopter and Cranial plating to hit me for 9 putting me down to 4. I decide to off with a pretty strong hand. After playing a bunch elves I decide to kill his artifacts with viridian shaman and 3 wirewoods but because I forgot to untap the 1 Nettle sentinel I had, I fizzled. He uses his flyer with shroud to hit me down to 1 life on his 4th turn. On my turn I go off again. He had 2 cards in has hand so just to make sure I use viridian to kill all his remaining artifacts. After that I kept playing elves hoping to draw into Emrakul. After noticing that I had only 6 cards in my library I played Joraga kicked 11 times to kill him.

Having Viridian Shaman really saved me here. I could have won turn 3 if it wasn't for the fact that I ran out of space to put all my elves and things got so messed up that I forgot to untap the nettle.:laugh:

Round 8 playing Spring tide (2-1)

I though this would be a really good match up since I can easily race him. Unfortunately he was running forces and I have some trouble playing around forces.

Game 1

I keep a perfect hand with glimpse, heritage, and Nettle Sentinel.

He forces my glimpse and I end up having to go aggro on him with no lords.... He combos off turn 5 or something and brain freezes me.

Game 2

I play a bunch of elves and run out of mana. I end my turn with 1 card in my hand. He make the mistake of not going off on his turn thinking I can't do anything with 1 card in my hand. On my turn I drew in something useless but the card in my hand was a Summoner's pact :cool:. I summon a Joraga and kill him.

For this game being able to summon Joraga was really good I didn't even have to combo or anything.

Game 3

I was almost sure I was going to lose this game having had to mulligan down to 5 cards. Turn four I try to go off but fail. I played a regal force drawing 6 cards which got me nothing. I then played eternal witness returning a summoner's pact to my hand, use the pact to find elvish visionary which also draws me into nothing good. He goes of on his turn but also fizzles after casting a meditate. I swarmed him for the kill which was really easy since he had to skip his turn.



Okay first of all the side-board was meant to be a complete aggro fallback for games 2 and 3. I noticed that doesn't work out... I think putting Vexing Shusher and some other cards will be better. I personally think Vexing is better than Lifeforce because vexing also stops your opponent from countering glimpse and summoner's pact. The 1 mana really won't slow you that much especially since any deck that is running counters is going to be slow. It is really easy to go off turn 4 while having to pay some extra mana.


I think the Viridian shaman and eternal witness are good card to have main deck. There were a few instances when I wished my priests were archdruids. However, since priest is 1 cmc less than archdruid I do remember that is saved me from fizzling often.

On a side note I think the living wish build will make this deck allot better.

[k2thej]

Congrats on the placement! It sounds like you know how to play the deck. I think with the new wish build, you could place even higher. Did you ever wish you had archdruid main instead of priests? I always found that having an aggro plan main was huge.

[TheSleeper]

Neil: Cheers for the report, very cool. Bad luck on not making Top 16.

I'm interested in why you guys think the Living Wish builds would fare better than say the list he ran? Doesn't it just open you up to another counterspell? As in.. casting Emraku (MD) vs. hoping to resolve a Wish to then get Emrakul? Maybe there's something I'm missing. If its to get utility creatures such as Vexing Shusher in Game 1, then I guess so. Isn't it enough just to board them in Game 2/3 though?

Another random question from those that know the deck better than me: how come Staff of Domination fell out of favour? I searched the thread but didn't find anything definitive. Is it simply because its not a creature/antergy with Glimpse? Or since Cthulu was printed its simply not needed? When goldfishing older versions of the deck, Staff was always a great way to go infinite. Cheers for thoughts here.

[NihilObstat]

How come Staff of Domination fell out of favour? I searched the thread but didn't find anything definitive. Is it simply because its not a creature/antergy with Glimpse? Or since Cthulu was printed its simply not needed? When goldfishing older versions of the deck, Staff was always a great way to go infinite. Cheers for thoughts here.

I see Staff as just way to expensive unless you run Archdruid or Titanias, and then I don't see the point in running those either, I never have a mana problem in this deck, maybe a 2% of the games which compared to the 20% of fizzling while going off that we tend to have. That's why I run Cloudstone Curio and it works just great with me, because it also works as Glimpse of Nature number 5 and 6, since you can combo with Curio, Nettle, Visionary, any elf, slowly but it combos ^^

[Neil]

Congrats on the placement! It sounds like you know how to play the deck. I think with the new wish build, you could place even higher. Did you ever wish you had archdruid main instead of priests? I always found that having an aggro plan main was huge.

There were a few instances when I wished my priests were archdruids. However, since priest is 1 cmc less than archdruid I do remember that is saved me from fizzling often.




Neil: Cheers for the report, very cool. Bad luck on not making Top 16.

I'm interested in why you guys think the Living Wish builds would fare better than say the list he ran? Doesn't it just open you up to another counterspell? As in.. casting Emraku (MD) vs. hoping to resolve a Wish to then get Emrakul? Maybe there's something I'm missing. If its to get utility creatures such as Vexing Shusher in Game 1, then I guess so. Isn't it enough just to board them in Game 2/3 though?



Like you said it gets utility creature game 1 which I believe will help the deck a lot more. Also cards like viridian shaman can go sideboard but I can still use it against artifacts game 1. Also gaea's cradle can be wished for when you really need it.

[Neil]

I'm not really a fan of the vengevine build...it's a different deck.

Neither am I. I also think pure elves combo is a better and cooler deck xD.

Green Sun's Zenith seems interesting but I don't think it can make the cut. Allot of times I do not combo off but just use summoner's pact to find Joraga and kick him a bunch of times to win. With Green Sun's Zenith you can't kick Joraga.

[Neil]

I see Staff as just way to expensive unless you run Archdruid or Titanias, and then I don't see the point in running those either, I never have a mana problem in this deck, maybe a 2% of the games which compared to the 20% of fizzling while going off that we tend to have. That's why I run Cloudstone Curio and it works just great with me, because it also works as Glimpse of Nature number 5 and 6, since you can combo with Curio, Nettle, Visionary, any elf, slowly but it combos ^^

No offense, but I don't understand why allot of people want something like 5th or 6th glimpse of nature. I really haven't found any card that is as good as glimpse. Running anything worse will slow down the deck. Out of all my games at the tournament only once did I wish I had more glimpse of natures and that time I was really unlucky (I still won however). If you don't have glimpse in your hand you can use summoner's pact to find either Joraga or regal depending on wether you need to win this turn or not.

[k2thej]

No offense, but I don't understand why allot of people want something like 5th or 6th glimpse of nature. I really haven't found any card that is as good as glimpse. Running anything worse will slow down the deck. Out of all my games at the tournament only once did I wish I had more glimpse of natures and that time I was really unlucky (I still won however). If you don't have glimpse in your hand you can use summoner's pact to find either Joraga or regal depending on wether you need to win this turn or not.

"K2theJ likes this"

[Shabbaman]

Allot of times I do not combo off but just use summoner's pact to find Joraga and kick him a bunch of times to win. With Green Sun's Zenith you can't kick Joraga.

GSZ has potential, but I wouldn't cut Pact for it. I wouldn't mind getting a third Nettle Sentinel with it though.

[k2thej]

GSZ has potential, but I wouldn't cut Pact for it. I wouldn't mind getting a third Nettle Sentinel with it though.

I don't mean to pick on Shabbaman, but this brings up one of the main ways I think people might be misplaying the deck. You really do not need 3 nettles in play, 2 is optimal, and 3 is great, sure, but you don't need it. In order to minimize fizzling, once you start to glimpse you should play a visionary whenever you can afford it. This means summoning visionary whenever possible as long the extra one mana won't stop you. This is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT for the consistency of this deck. Is everyone doing this?

[Rabrab]

hi,

last weekend i play elfball in hannover and went 3-2-1 after 3-1 start:(

my list:

3 forest
8 fetch
1 savannah
1 bayou
2 taiga
1 horizon canopy (15. land)

4 nettle sentinel
4 heritage druid
4 birchlore ranger
4 elvish visionary
1 elvish archdruid (vs plague, tabernacle)
3 fauna shaman
4 wirewood symbiote
1 sylvok replica (vs plague, cb)
1 mirror entity
1 sylvan messenger (fauna shaman engine)
3 quirion ranger
3 fyndhorn elves
4 llanowar elves

3 glimpse of nature
3 burning wish (4-6. glimpse + answer for cb + killing by grapeshot)
1 chord of calling (tutor without summon sickness like fauna shaman)

sb

1 glimpse of nature
1 gleeful sabotage
1 grapeshot
4 cabal therapy (dredge + combo)
1 burrenton forge tender (firesprout)
1 ethersworn canonist
1 gaddock teeg
1 caller of claws
2 krosan grip (anser no. 9+10)
1 magus of the moon (rock, landstill etc if your opponent ignores to fetch basics)
1 viridian shaman (vs staxx, jitte(symbiote + shaman > replica))

round 1 dredge 2-1
g1 turn 3 win
g2 he disrupted me with lot of therapies
g3 turn 3 win

round 2 dredge 1-2
g1 he disrupted me with lot of therapies + turn 4 win
g2 i had teeg and therapies vs breakthrough and bridges
g3 i draw 10 of 15 lands with opening hand -> 4 lands (1 canopy 2 fetch 1 forest) 1 therapy 1 visionary 1 birchlore ranger

round 3 dredge ( 5 of 45 people are playing dredge) 2-1
g1 he won after a long fight
g2 i won turn 3
g3 he mulled to 4 and i killed him turn 4

round 4 goblins 2-0
g1 turn 3 matron -> turn 4 shooter -> my turn 4 win:)
g2 turn 2 canonist -> viridian shaman searched by fauna shaman -> turn 3 matron + turn 4 shooter -> i won turn 4:D

round 5 gwb rock 1-1-1
g1 i won with beatz:)
g2 he disrupted me with lot of hymns + deeds and it was a long fight
g3 (i boarded out my grips because i didn't see any plague) -> turn 2 canonist and a very long fight... i had caller of claws + symbiote but he had 1 vampire nighthawk and few turns later this 1 jitte -> nobobdy won in time out -> 1-1-1:(

round 6 surpreme blue 1-2
g1 i won after 3. glimpse
g2 he had 2 firesprout 1 ee 1-2 cbs + some dazes/fows
g3 look at g2 (i took my first mulligan at these day)

pro:
fauna shaman -> really good... if she arrived next turn you can search end of turn of opponent + own turn and do your combo.

con:
wish -> it's really good but non-green sucks...


now i want to test these list:

3 forest
2 horizon canopy
1 bayou
1 taiga
1 savannah
8 fetch

4 llanowar elves
3 fyndhorn elves
2 birchlore ranger (they're nice but i play only green cards)
4 heritage druid
4 nettle sentinel
4 wirewood symbiote
3 quirion ranger
1 elvish archdruid
4 elvish visionery
4 fauna shaman
1 sylvan messenger
1 sylvok replica
1 mirror entity
1 regal force

4 glimpse of nature
2 chord of calling
1 grapeshot (maybe 1 emrakul, 3. chord, 1 primal command)

sb:
1 ethersworn canonist
1 gaddock teeg
1 caller of claws
1 viridian shaman
1 magus of the moon
1 yixlid jailer (easy to find with shaman/chord vs dredge)
1 orzhov pontiff (vs shooter/mirror)
1 burrenton forge tender
2 gleeful sabotage
1 krosan grip
4 discard (duress, thoughtseize, cabal therapy)

[NihilObstat]

No offense, but I don't understand why allot of people want something like 5th or 6th glimpse of nature. I really haven't found any card that is as good as glimpse. Running anything worse will slow down the deck. Out of all my games at the tournament only once did I wish I had more glimpse of natures and that time I was really unlucky (I still won however). If you don't have glimpse in your hand you can use summoner's pact to find either Joraga or regal depending on wether you need to win this turn or not.

Well, then I'm really very super happy for you guys, you really must have a great bunch of luck stuck up in your Deckbox.
Elves, don't always combo, we only run 4 Glimpse, so we don't always draw them, and they get countered many times, and then the fall back upon an aggro plan really isn't that big.

Sure Elves combo many, many times on turn 2, 3 or 4, but then something like 15% of the games, we will just sit there and do nothing with your builds, because we didn't get Glimpse or Summoner's or your last hope, Warcaller, got countered-sworded-pathed-even bolted if we haven't comboed and we play it with 2 counters. So yeah, I support Cloudstone Curio, because it doesn't just count as Glimpses 5 and 6, but it doesn't helps us not fizzling while going off and running out of dudes.

I really don't mean to criticize, but I don't want you to act as though your deck never fails, or doesn't frequently fail, because it does, many times, otherwise we would be Tier1. That's why I accept it and try to work solutions out of it, not to make the fastest build ever with less CMC mana cost general. I just try to figure, stronger, more capable of reaction to any situation, and more consistent builds even in unlucky situations.

So far I'm doing good, but I'm not liking your "I beat ass" attitude ;)




Neither am I. I also think pure elves combo is a better and cooler deck xD.

Green Sun's Zenith seems interesting but I don't think it can make the cut. Allot of times I do not combo off but just use summoner's pact to find Joraga and kick him a bunch of times to win. With Green Sun's Zenith you can't kick Joraga.

You can always "bounce" it with Wirewood, and recast.
I think your list could use 1 or 2 of these guys, plus adding some green sexy dudes sideboard:
Dauntless Escort, Gaddock Teeg, Harmonic Sliver, Qasali Pridemage, Vexing Shusher.

[k2thej]

Well, then I'm really very super happy for you guys, you really must have a great bunch of luck stuck up in your Deckbox.
Elves, don't always combo, we only run 4 Glimpse, so we don't always draw them, and they get countered many times, and then the fall back upon an aggro plan really isn't that big.

Sure Elves combo many, many times on turn 2, 3 or 4, but then something like 15% of the games, we will just sit there and do nothing with your builds, because we didn't get Glimpse or Summoner's or your last hope, Warcaller, got countered-sworded-pathed-even bolted if we haven't comboed and we play it with 2 counters. So yeah, I support Cloudstone Curio, because it doesn't just count as Glimpses 5 and 6, but it doesn't helps us not fizzling while going off and running out of dudes.

I really don't mean to criticize, but I don't want you to act as though your deck never fails, or doesn't frequently fail, because it does, many times, otherwise we would be Tier1. That's why I accept it and try to work solutions out of it, not to make the fastest build ever with less CMC mana cost general. I just try to figure, stronger, more capable of reaction to any situation, and more consistent builds even in unlucky situations.

So far I'm doing good, but I'm not liking your "I beat ass" attitude ;)





You can always "bounce" it with Wirewood, and recast.
I think your list could use 1 or 2 of these guys, plus adding some green sexy dudes sideboard:
Dauntless Escort, Gaddock Teeg, Harmonic Sliver, Qasali Pridemage, Vexing Shusher.


The only reason this deck is not tier one is because most people don't understand how to play the deck. With 4 glimpses you have more than enough fuel to do something awesome every game. I promise. If I had enough time to play in more tournaments I would win. Curio is not a good idea. I've been playing elves for 10 years. Curio is not a good idea. This deck can win consistently, but not with curio.

[TossUsToLions]

Why isnt Weird Harvest being used? 4 harvest and 4 Glimpses is enough to fight through countermagic. Most elf combo decks rely on drawing into one of only four Glimpses. If you don't draw one, then you fall back onto a crappy aggro backup. With Weird Harvest and a Priest of Titania or Archduid out, you can Weird Harvest for any combination of Qurion Rangers/ Wirewood Symbiotes/ Emrakul. Untap your mana producers repeatedly and you have turn 3 Emrakul.

Throw this in a list with full playsets of Heritage Druids/Nettle Sentinels/Glimpse of Natures and you have two consistent ways of comboing off

[Augustas]

Lead the Stampede
Sorcery
Look at the top five cards of your library. You may reveal any number of creature cards from among them and put the revealed cards into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.

i wonder why no one even mentioned it as a possibility. Along with elvish spirit guides, it can make you keep going forever. Yeah it's con is that it requires an active glimpse, but it can keep your hand full of bussiness

[Shabbaman]

I don't mean to pick on Shabbaman

Good ;)


but this brings up one of the main ways I think people might be misplaying the deck. You really do not need 3 nettles in play, 2 is optimal, and 3 is great, sure, but you don't need it. In order to minimize fizzling, once you start to glimpse you should play a visionary whenever you can afford it. This means summoning visionary whenever possible as long the extra one mana won't stop you. This is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT for the consistency of this deck. Is everyone doing this?

First things first: I was only bringing up the Nettle Sentinel up as an example of the use of GSZ. I know I don't need 3, but I do know that GSZ could get me the 2nd (or even 1st) for 1G. This doesn't seem useless to me. I'm unsure how big a bomb the card actually is, but I do know the card is useful on the second turn. It doesn't stop the Glimpse chain either (unless you're really unlucky you can always get a Visioinary for 2G and restart the chain). GSZ isn't a Glimpse, Pact, Sentinel, Heritage Druid or Visionary, but on the turn you combo it's a better card than Archdruid (unless you can give it haste). The GSZ is versatile, that's all I was pointing out.

As for the message you're trying to get across: it seems a bit obvious to point out that you want to maximize creatures in your hand. I guess it's more what you do with the Pact in your hand. I feel I am not aggressive enough with that card because of the "YOU LOSE" clause on it. More to the point: I'm afraid to Pact on the turn before I expect to go off.

[voltron00x]

The only reason this deck is not tier one is because most people don't understand how to play the deck. With 4 glimpses you have more than enough fuel to do something awesome every game. I promise. If I had enough time to play in more tournaments I would win. Curio is not a good idea. I've been playing elves for 10 years. Curio is not a good idea. This deck can win consistently, but not with curio.

I obviously agree with Nihil. 4 of anything gives you a 40% chance of opening with that card in your hand, and Elves doesn't exactly mulligan that well considering it doesn't play a lot of lands. Playing back-up Glimpses is great if you don't draw Glimpse or it gets Thoughtseized or countered. Cloudstone Curio, Weird Harvest, Genesis Wave - all these things are clearly not as good as Glimpse, but they're workable back-up plans against many decks in the format. Consider Goblins, which is very popular; that deck isn't loaded with removal, so you're actually able to Wave them out pretty easily. Against blue decks, Curio is really good as you get a banging draw engine with Visionary that helps you find Glimpse more easily, and for what its worth, you can assemble a Curio combo and win that way too; since people aren't as familiar with it, I've found that its pretty easy to set-up.

Its the same argument I have in Vintage. Can you play Dredge with 4 Bazaar and 0 Serum Powder? Sure, of course you can. But I'd still strongly suggest you play Serum Powder to make sure you find your deck's engine. This is more or less the same idea, here with Elves.

[Koby]

I have to agree with voltron00x here. Prior to the Survival banning, the deck was supercharged with tutors. Survival on it's own was an awesome secondary engine to Glimpse, enabling the deck to start off tutor chains and give haste to the lords.

With that aspect now missing, an additional 3 cards (minimum) would be required to get that element back into Combo Elves. Living Wish, while being good utility, has not been a great card for enabling the combo portion; merely finishing it off. To be perfectly honest, I have not tried Cloudstone Curio, Staff of Domination, Weird Harvest, nor Genesis Wave yet in this deck. If I were to test one out, it would be the Curio. It lends itself very nicely with several elves, and you could reconfigure the deck with 1 Wood Elves + all basics to take advantage of it. (As I've done with the old EPIC Combo Elves list, to enable Taiga/Anger) Since all the ETB Elves work nicely with Wirewood Symbiote, I would also push that number to 4.

Green Sun's Zenith is also interesting in here, and being a one-shot Survival makes me more inclined to test it out. Tutoring for a 2nd (or 3rd) Nettle Sentinel is nothing to shrug at.

[k2thej]

All very good points. Finding the engine is certainly the most important part. Here is my reasoning for 4 glimpses being enough:

-As stated, you have a 40% chance of getting one in your opening hand

-The other 60% of the time we should not be viewing as bad, as you can in most decks. The reason for this is that elves sees waaay more cards per game than the average deck. I did the math out about a month or so ago (I don't remember what page it is on but it's a long post from me) and the probability of having a hand with no glimpse, no symbiote/visionary combo, AND no summoner's pact AND no Regal force AND on top of that now no living wish as well since I have a Regal Force in the board too) is insanely low. Therefore, we are going to be able to get a regal force or a symbiote/visionary combo in play if we don't have the glimpse, meaning that we will find the glimpse quickly (or just win).

-The Aggro backup plan is not a weak one, and here is why: Think about when you need it most...against control right? Decks like top that are hard to combo against have nothing on our Aggro backup plan, ESPECAILLY after you board in leyline. The only decks we really need to rely on this plan against we can completely out aggro. We shouldn't compare our aggro plan to, say, Goblins, since we don't need it against them.

-This illustrates one of this deck's biggest strength- it combos over most decks, and any deck it has trouble comboing over it can out-aggro, especially post board.

[Koby]

Also to note, I started putting the Elvish Champion back as a singleton in the maindeck. This helps out the aggro plan more than the combo plan, and allows you to alpha-strike vs a majority of the format using Summoner's Pact. If Living Wish is in the deck, it's also a great idea to put it there too.

[Neil]

Well, then I'm really very super happy for you guys, you really must have a great bunch of luck stuck up in your Deckbox.
Elves, don't always combo, we only run 4 Glimpse, so we don't always draw them, and they get countered many times, and then the fall back upon an aggro plan really isn't that big.

Sure Elves combo many, many times on turn 2, 3 or 4, but then something like 15% of the games, we will just sit there and do nothing with your builds, because we didn't get Glimpse or Summoner's or your last hope, Warcaller, got countered-sworded-pathed-even bolted if we haven't comboed and we play it with 2 counters. So yeah, I support Cloudstone Curio, because it doesn't just count as Glimpses 5 and 6, but it doesn't helps us not fizzling while going off and running out of dudes.

I really don't mean to criticize, but I don't want you to act as though your deck never fails, or doesn't frequently fail, because it does, many times, otherwise we would be Tier1. That's why I accept it and try to work solutions out of it, not to make the fastest build ever with less CMC mana cost general. I just try to figure, stronger, more capable of reaction to any situation, and more consistent builds even in unlucky situations.

So far I'm doing good, but I'm not liking your "I beat ass" attitude ;)





You can always "bounce" it with Wirewood, and recast.
I think your list could use 1 or 2 of these guys, plus adding some green sexy dudes sideboard:
Dauntless Escort, Gaddock Teeg, Harmonic Sliver, Qasali Pridemage, Vexing Shusher.

Okay first thing is elves are not tier 1 in my opinion because spot removal really hurts this deck. Also in my meta where there are allot of UB Merfolk around it is really hard to play through there sideboard cards. When you say 15% of the games I will sit there and do nothing I have no clue what you mean. There are 4 glimpses, 4 Summer's pact, 3 Living wish, 1 Joraga, and 1 regal force all of which you can use to 'not sit 15% of the games and do nothing". I'm not trying to say that this deck doesn't have problems but not having enough glimpse of nature like cards is not a problem. I will be adding vexing shusher to my deck but the rest of the cards you suggested I really don't think so :)

[Neil]

My living wish build

Creatures:

3 Birchlore Rangers
4 Quirion Ranger
4 lanowar elves
4 elvish visionary
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Fyndhorn elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 wirewood symbiote
1 Regal Force
3 Priest of Titania
1 Joraga Warcaller


Spells

3 living wish
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's pact


Lands

1 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant catacombs
10 forest


Sideboard

1 Elvish Archdruid (or Elvish Champion)
4 Krosan Grip
4 Vexing Shusher
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Emrakul, the aeons torn
1 Ezuri, renegade leader
1 Eternal Witness


I am not sure as to wether the Archdruid should become an Elvish Champion or not. Let me know what you guys think.

[k2thej]

My living wish build

Creatures:

3 Birchlore Rangers
4 Quirion Ranger
4 lanowar elves
4 elvish visionary
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Fyndhorn elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 wirewood symbiote
1 Regal Force
3 Priest of Titania
1 Joraga Warcaller


Spells

3 living wish
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's pact


Lands

1 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant catacombs
10 forest


Sideboard

1 Elvish Archdruid (or Elvish Champion)
4 Krosan Grip
4 Vexing Shusher
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Emrakul, the aeons torn
1 Ezuri, renegade leader
1 Eternal Witness


I am not sure as to wether the Archdruid should become an Elvish Champion or not. Let me know what you guys think.

So I think the only difference between our builds maindeck is that I use archdruids and you use priests haha. As for sideboard, I have found that leylines are a lot better than shusher, what advantages do you see in shusher? I also have a terastodon to get rid of any pesky things on the board. Since the leylines also take care of top, krosan grip didn't seem necessary. This leaves room for 4 thorn of amethyst which helps us against combo a ton, and lord knows we need the help against storm.

[NihilObstat]

The only reason this deck is not tier one is because most people don't understand how to play the deck. With 4 glimpses you have more than enough fuel to do something awesome every game. I promise. If I had enough time to play in more tournaments I would win. Curio is not a good idea. I've been playing elves for 10 years. Curio is not a good idea. This deck can win consistently, but not with curio.

I have also been playing elves for 10 years, and let me tell you, I know how to play the deck.
It is actually frustrating to lend the deck to a supposedly pro and seeing he can't figure out how to combo 2nd turn, or to do things I consider obvious, and I am sure that most people posting in this thread know perfectly well how to pull off the amazing techs this deck has, so that's exactly what I'm talking about, sure your list is great, I really think so it is a great list, but you can't just shout away that it is the MOST PERFECT list can find right now, ever, anywhere. Go make top8's a couple of them and then we'll talk, I have 2 top8 with my list from these last 2 month, and I only played 2 tournaments, and a friend of mine you ran the exact list placed 1st of out 61.

I am merely remarking your attitude. Help the community, don't just brag about being the best.




Okay first thing is elves are not tier 1 in my opinion because spot removal really hurts this deck. Also in my meta where there are allot of UB Merfolk around it is really hard to play through there sideboard cards. When you say 15% of the games I will sit there and do nothing I have no clue what you mean. There are 4 glimpses, 4 Summer's pact, 3 Living wish, 1 Joraga, and 1 regal force all of which you can use to 'not sit 15% of the games and do nothing". I'm not trying to say that this deck doesn't have problems but not having enough glimpse of nature like cards is not a problem. I will be adding vexing shusher to my deck but the rest of the cards you suggested I really don't think so :)

Spot removals, and UB merfolks really hurt us, but I tend to manage a way out about Merfolk, and it's also a big meta here.
The fall back plan just isn't good enough many times against Goblins, Zoo, or other aggro, because if we want to accomplish 7 mana for regal then we have to land elves, and that's when instead of Summoner's we draw Glimpse, with no elves in hand. Or when we keep all elves in hand and draw Summoner's instead of Glimpse, and then we waste one more turn against fast aggro which means death.

On the suggestions part, they were just that, suggestions, and I would only run Vexing Shusher out of all those cards, unless you also play Chord of Calling, which grants some super secret ninja techs. Although it will be replaced by Sunith too probably, in my list.

Again, I do like your guys lists, but the difference is that I have tested all possibilities, yours, mine, others, and you seem reluctant to test something different.

[k2thej]

I have also been playing elves for 10 years, and let me tell you, I know how to play the deck.
It is actually frustrating to lend the deck to a supposedly pro and seeing he can't figure out how to combo 2nd turn, or to do things I consider obvious, and I am sure that most people posting in this thread know perfectly well how to pull off the amazing techs this deck has, so that's exactly what I'm talking about, sure your list is great, I really think so it is a great list, but you can't just shout away that it is the MOST PERFECT list can find right now, ever, anywhere. Go make top8's a couple of them and then we'll talk, I have 2 top8 with my list from these last 2 month, and I only played 2 tournaments, and a friend of mine you ran the exact list placed 1st of out 61.

I am merely remarking your attitude. Help the community, don't just brag about being the best.





Spot removals, and UB merfolks really hurt us, but I tend to manage a way out about Merfolk, and it's also a big meta here.
The fall back plan just isn't good enough many times against Goblins, Zoo, or other aggro, because if we want to accomplish 7 mana for regal then we have to land elves, and that's when instead of Summoner's we draw Glimpse, with no elves in hand. Or when we keep all elves in hand and draw Summoner's instead of Glimpse, and then we waste one more turn against fast aggro which means death.

On the suggestions part, they were just that, suggestions, and I would only run Vexing Shusher out of all those cards, unless you also play Chord of Calling, which grants some super secret ninja techs. Although it will be replaced by Sunith too probably, in my list.

Again, I do like your guys lists, but the difference is that I have tested all possibilities, yours, mine, others, and you seem reluctant to test something different.

First of all, I apologize for being a complete douchehole in that post. I went back and read it and was like wow, I'm an asshole. I wasn't sober at the time haha. So my apologies to everyone, it won't happen again.

I have tested all the possibilities as well, I just think that other glimpse substitutes take away from the synergy of the deck (see the above post of mine about why only 4 glimpses is ok). I will continue to test every build I see since I love this deck and want elves to be tier one. That's the main thing that keeps bringing my back to legacy, my mission to help us make elves a tier one deck.

So I will continue to test different builds, especially as new cards (like zenith) come out, and I apologize again for my drunken rant.

[NihilObstat]

hi,
last weekend i play elfball in hannover and went 3-2-1 after 3-1 start:(

my list:
3 forest
8 fetch
1 savannah
1 bayou
2 taiga
1 horizon canopy (15. land)
4 nettle sentinel
4 heritage druid
4 birchlore ranger
4 elvish visionary
1 elvish archdruid (vs plague, tabernacle)
3 fauna shaman
4 wirewood symbiote
1 sylvok replica (vs plague, cb)
1 mirror entity
1 sylvan messenger (fauna shaman engine)
3 quirion ranger
3 fyndhorn elves
4 llanowar elves
3 glimpse of nature
3 burning wish (4-6. glimpse + answer for cb + killing by grapeshot)
1 chord of calling (tutor without summon sickness like fauna shaman)

sb
1 glimpse of nature
1 gleeful sabotage
1 grapeshot
4 cabal therapy (dredge + combo)
1 burrenton forge tender (firesprout)
1 ethersworn canonist
1 gaddock teeg
1 caller of claws
2 krosan grip (anser no. 9+10)
1 magus of the moon (rock, landstill etc if your opponent ignores to fetch basics)
1 viridian shaman (vs staxx, jitte(symbiote + shaman > replica))

con:
wish -> it's really good but non-green sucks...

I have also tested Burning Wish as I guess many people here have, and while it sounds like a great idea on paper and it's super fun to have all those possibilities waiting for you in the sideboard, having to pay 2 more mana, and specially 1 red, to get a Glimpse sucks big time, so I ended up only playing 1 Wish, fetching for different killing options, but I finally took it out.
Wish is so much fun, but not good enough... :)

Discard effects are a fantastic idea helping out against combo & control, but then you need Bayous (budget) to support them.

Fauna Shaman, looks just a little too slow (2mana, wait one turn), weak (creature - 2/2), dependent (needs another creature in hand to actually do anything). I think that sticking to Summoner's pact, the new Zenith, Chord of calling, or even Worldly tutor, any other non-creature searchers would be a better way to go :)

[Neil]

I have also been playing elves for 10 years, and let me tell you, I know how to play the deck.
It is actually frustrating to lend the deck to a supposedly pro and seeing he can't figure out how to combo 2nd turn, or to do things I consider obvious, and I am sure that most people posting in this thread know perfectly well how to pull off the amazing techs this deck has, so that's exactly what I'm talking about, sure your list is great, I really think so it is a great list, but you can't just shout away that it is the MOST PERFECT list can find right now, ever, anywhere. Go make top8's a couple of them and then we'll talk, I have 2 top8 with my list from these last 2 month, and I only played 2 tournaments, and a friend of mine you ran the exact list placed 1st of out 61.

I am merely remarking your attitude. Help the community, don't just brag about being the best.





Spot removals, and UB merfolks really hurt us, but I tend to manage a way out about Merfolk, and it's also a big meta here.
The fall back plan just isn't good enough many times against Goblins, Zoo, or other aggro, because if we want to accomplish 7 mana for regal then we have to land elves, and that's when instead of Summoner's we draw Glimpse, with no elves in hand. Or when we keep all elves in hand and draw Summoner's instead of Glimpse, and then we waste one more turn against fast aggro which means death.

On the suggestions part, they were just that, suggestions, and I would only run Vexing Shusher out of all those cards, unless you also play Chord of Calling, which grants some super secret ninja techs. Although it will be replaced by Sunith too probably, in my list.

Again, I do like your guys lists, but the difference is that I have tested all possibilities, yours, mine, others, and you seem reluctant to test something different.

I have tested different versions but I find that running anything other than glimpse seems like a bad idea. There will be many times when that sub Glimpse of nature card will get in your way. I do want to know how you play around UB Merfolk though. My old sideboard was not that good so that might have been a reason as to why I found it to be so hard.




So I think the only difference between our builds maindeck is that I use archdruids and you use priests haha. As for sideboard, I have found that leylines are a lot better than shusher, what advantages do you see in shusher? I also have a terastodon to get rid of any pesky things on the board. Since the leylines also take care of top, krosan grip didn't seem necessary. This leaves room for 4 thorn of amethyst which helps us against combo a ton, and lord knows we need the help against storm.

Well I like shusher better because mulliganing into Leyline seems like a bad idea especially since combo elves doesn't run that many lands. Actually casting leyline seems really hard. The only drawback I see about shusher is that he is really bad against top, one reason I run Krosan grip. I also run Grip for Engineered plague, Umezava's Jitte, Sword of fire and Ice, and once in a while against affinity. Terastodon looks ineteresting and I think it would be a good replacement for elvish archdruid. As far as Amethyst goes elves combo can race spring tide and I just pray I don't play against SI or TES....:)

[Rabrab]

I have also tested Burning Wish as I guess many people here have, and while it sounds like a great idea on paper and it's super fun to have all those possibilities waiting for you in the sideboard, having to pay 2 more mana, and specially 1 red, to get a Glimpse sucks big time, so I ended up only playing 1 Wish, fetching for different killing options, but I finally took it out.
Wish is so much fun, but not good enough... :)

Discard effects are a fantastic idea helping out against combo & control, but then you need Bayous (budget) to support them.

Fauna Shaman, looks just a little too slow (2mana, wait one turn), weak (creature - 2/2), dependent (needs another creature in hand to actually do anything). I think that sticking to Summoner's pact, the new Zenith, Chord of calling, or even Worldly tutor, any other non-creature searchers would be a better way to go :)


2/2 Body of Fauna is great vs engineered plague and you can search an out against this like Replica.
I don't like pact because you can play it only in your comboturn that's are too slow in my opinion.

[k2thej]

2/2 Body of Fauna is great vs engineered plague and you can search an out against this like Replica.
I don't like pact because you can play it only in your comboturn that's are too slow in my opinion.

That's the only time I find I want to tutor anyway. Pact I think is absolutely the fastest tutor, it's free! you can view it as having whatever creature you want in your hand. It's like a wild card that helps you start the combo.

[NihilObstat]

2/2 Body of Fauna is great vs engineered plague and you can search an out against this like Replica.
I don't like pact because you can play it only in your comboturn that's are too slow in my opinion.

I think that Lightning Bolt, Sword to plowshares, Path to exile, Galvanic blast, Gempalm incinerator, Pyroclasm are a lot more worrying, and a lot more seen than Engineered plague, at least in my metagame, and she dies to all of them. Trying new things is always great, but you should realize that almost everyone here plays 4x or 3x of Summoner's pact, really give it a try.

[kyller83]

k2thej: i was wondering what you pulled in your board for the terastadon? we run nearly identical decks except for i run a concordant crossroads instead of a 4th birchlore ranger. in the board i don't really understand the caller of the claw. i've been running a faerie macabre in its place since i always see a couple dredge decks at local tourneys. its also priddy good against nass' version of elves since usually they drop the vengvines in the grave the turn before they try to go off.

speaking of nass; did anyone else see the coverage of the last round at san jose? nothing like being up one game, at full combo, and having to pass the turn because you don't run a kill condition! XD

oh, and losing game three to islandwalk!

[k2thej]

k2thej: i was wondering what you pulled in your board for the terastadon? we run nearly identical decks except for i run a concordant crossroads instead of a 4th birchlore ranger. in the board i don't really understand the caller of the claw. i've been running a faerie macabre in its place since i always see a couple dredge decks at local tourneys. its also priddy good against nass' version of elves since usually they drop the vengvines in the grave the turn before they try to go off.

speaking of nass; did anyone else see the coverage of the last round at san jose? nothing like being up one game, at full combo, and having to pass the turn because you don't run a kill condition! XD

oh, and losing game three to islandwalk!

Well I can answer both your questions at once haha. The caller of the claw was what I took out for the terrastodon. The claw was in there for sweepers obviously but I decided it wasn't worth it. I was debating between woodfall primus and terrastodon but terrastodon won out in my opinion.

In testing, I haven't found much use for eternal witness in the board, but that could likely become a lot more useful in real match ups with removal/sweepers. I generally try not to worry about removal since we have enough dudes that we can power through it. Sweepers are a concern though, but maybe caller would be more useful than witness, so I might end up swapping witness for caller but we will see when I test more.

I gotta say, after testing post board against top/other blue control decks, I could not be happier with the outcome. If you look at my most recent list with terrastodon, you swap wish, glimpse, and pact for everything in the board except thorn. It is awesome. Uncounterable B.A. aggro

[Neil]

For those of you guys who want to run 5 or 6 Glimpse of natures. Why not try running living wish and mirror entity in sideboard? Or is that too slow?

[NihilObstat]

For those of you guys who want to run 5 or 6 Glimpse of natures. Why not try running living wish and mirror entity in sideboard? Or is that too slow?

And what do you tutor with the wishes? Only Entity?

I run Mirror Entity maindeck, and while it's won me so many games, by full aggro, helping to chump block with 4/4 or 5/5s one turn, and kill the next turn, it usually isn't good enough to kill the same turn I play it, because all the elves I control, except maybe 2, have summoning sickness. I could put Concordant back in the deck, but I don't think so, anyway it's usually only against Pyroclasm-effects or very fast aggro that I search for Mirror entity in the first game.
I don't understand how Living Wish could be Glimpse 5 and 6, although I really like Living maindeck, it's better than Zenith since we actually get to cast the creatures and draw from them.

Everyone running Living wish, what bullets do your carry in the sideboard (Gaea's craddle, Faerie Macabre-Yixlid jailer, Mirror entity, Harmonic sliver, Dauntless escort, Burrenton forge-tender, Regal force, Eternal witness, Gaddock teeg, Emrakul ? Others ?)

[k2thej]

And what do you tutor with the wishes? Only Entity?

I run Mirror Entity maindeck, and while it's won me so many games, by full aggro, helping to chump block with 4/4 or 5/5s one turn, and kill the next turn, it usually isn't good enough to kill the same turn I play it, because all the elves I control, except maybe 2, have summoning sickness. I could put Concordant back in the deck, but I don't think so, anyway it's usually only against Pyroclasm-effects or very fast aggro that I search for Mirror entity in the first game.
I don't understand how Living Wish could be Glimpse 5 and 6, although I really like Living maindeck, it's better than Zenith since we actually get to cast the creatures and draw from them.

Everyone running Living wish, what bullets do your carry in the sideboard (Gaea's craddle, Faerie Macabre-Yixlid jailer, Mirror entity, Harmonic sliver, Dauntless escort, Burrenton forge-tender, Regal force, Eternal witness, Gaddock teeg, Emrakul ? Others ?)

Ezuri- AWESOME with wish

Regal Force-Never hurts to have him available

Terrastodon-Gets rid of anything that might stop you (except humility)

Emrakul-Win. Main Combo target

Eternal Witness-Good in theory but I am having my doubts now. We shall see

Viridian Shaman-Gets rid of smaller things when you can't afford terrastodon yet

Cradle-When mana is needed

4 Leyline of lifeforce- AWESOME. I can't stress enough how good this card is. It allows you to play a completely different deck when you need to.

4 Thorn- Vs. Combo.

[J.V.]

Since Green Sun's Zenith was spoiled I've been messing around with Elf Combo with decent success. This is the list I've been running, I've found GS'sZ to be absolutely absurd in the deck. Any thoughts from more experience Elf Combo players?

// Lands:13
12 [CHK] Forest (3)
1 [US] Gaea's Cradle

// Creatures:39
4 [EVG] Llanowar Elves
4 [DM] Fyndhorn Elves
4 [EVE] Nettle Sentinel
4 [MOR] Heritage Druid
4 [EVG] Wirewood Symbiote
4 [VI] Quirion Ranger
4 [M10] Elvish Visionary
3 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
2 [ON] Birchlore Rangers
1 [EVE] Regal Force
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [DS] Viridian Zealot
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [SC] Xantid Swarm
1 [AP] Sylvan Messenger

// Spells:8
4 [CHK] Glimpse of Nature
4 [MB] Green Sun's Zenith

// Sideboard:15
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 2 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [WWK] Terastodon
SB: 1 [DS] Viridian Zealot
SB: 1 [SC] Xantid Swarm

[InResponseForceOfWill]

Could Lead the Stampede (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=114329&stc=1&d=1295414012) replace anyone who runs Sylvan Mesenger (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/87.html)? I'll definitely try it.

[Waikiki]

I would not. It even lowers the creature count on its own.

[Neil]

And what do you tutor with the wishes? Only Entity?

I run Mirror Entity maindeck, and while it's won me so many games, by full aggro, helping to chump block with 4/4 or 5/5s one turn, and kill the next turn, it usually isn't good enough to kill the same turn I play it, because all the elves I control, except maybe 2, have summoning sickness. I could put Concordant back in the deck, but I don't think so, anyway it's usually only against Pyroclasm-effects or very fast aggro that I search for Mirror entity in the first game.
I don't understand how Living Wish could be Glimpse 5 and 6, although I really like Living maindeck, it's better than Zenith since we actually get to cast the creatures and draw from them.

Everyone running Living wish, what bullets do your carry in the sideboard (Gaea's craddle, Faerie Macabre-Yixlid jailer, Mirror entity, Harmonic sliver, Dauntless escort, Burrenton forge-tender, Regal force, Eternal witness, Gaddock teeg, Emrakul ? Others ?)

Wow you run Mirror maindeck... What do you use to tutor for it? The reason I suggested living wish is because it can search for any color creature... I don't count living wish as a 5th glimpse of nature but as way to search for a win-con.

My sideboard is

4 Krosan Grip
4 Vexing shusher (can be tutored using living)
1 Regal Force
1 Ezuri
1 Emrakul
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Terrastodon
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Geaa's Cradle

I do not run Elvish Archdruid maindeck but instead run priests.

[NihilObstat]

Wow you run Mirror maindeck... What do you use to tutor for it?

As I've said about 5 times on this thread, I run Chord of Calling, which allow for so many sick instant speed sideboard tricks. It could be replaced by Living Wish or GreenSZenith, which would reduce the tutor cost by 1 or 2, but would lose the instant trick.

I know that Mirror Entity looks stupid, but you should try it out and you'll love it.
I've won so many games thanks to its aggro quality, but even more thanks to its crazy synergy with Symbiote. Those two together can recover anything. Recasting as many times as you need Regal Force, Harmonic Sliver, Eternal Witness recovering Burrenton forge-tender or Dauntless escort. He also makes us not fizzling while going off next to Symbiote.

If you don't remmeber the combo it goes like this (Heritage+Mirror+Symbiote+Nettle, pay 1 w/mirror, tap our new symbiote-elf plus2 elves add3, return Symbiote to himself, untap elf, cast Symb., pay1, tap3, return Symb 2 himself, untap, cast......infinite).

That's just me though...





On a different Topic:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5510&iddeck=39902

So that's a 42 creatures deck + 18 lands. I'd say it needs some Concordant Crossroads to get to use those Priests and Archdruids and specially the Shaman to tutor Emrakul in the same turn, and maybe also Visionary.
What do you guys think?

[(nameless one)]

On a different Topic:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5510&iddeck=39902

So that's a 42 creatures deck + 18 lands. I'd say it needs some Concordant Crossroads to get to use those Priests and Archdruids and specially the Shaman to tutor Emrakul in the same turn, and maybe also Visionary.
What do you guys think?

I think that deck us more suited to be posted on the aggro-elves thread.

[Koby]

Looks like my old Survival deck, but without Glimpse nor Survival. :\

The tournament was also only 25 people, so there's not much to read from that.

[NihilObstat]

I think that deck us more suited to be posted on the aggro-elves thread.

Right, sorry, I didn't know there was an aggro-elves thread on the source, since they always put us together on Decks pages like deckcheck and the council... nevermind ^^




Different Topic:

So, this other list made top5 out of 45, and it looks just like my list other than the fact that I don't run Vexing shusher or Harmonic sliver maindeck, and I run 2 Cloudstone curio.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5565&iddeck=40294

Thoughts? Likes, dislikes?

[Eldarion]

My living wish build

Creatures:

3 Birchlore Rangers
4 Quirion Ranger
4 lanowar elves
4 elvish visionary
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Fyndhorn elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 wirewood symbiote
1 Regal Force
3 Priest of Titania
1 Joraga Warcaller


Spells

3 living wish
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's pact


Lands

1 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant catacombs
10 forest


Sideboard

1 Elvish Archdruid (or Elvish Champion)
4 Krosan Grip
4 Vexing Shusher
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Emrakul, the aeons torn
1 Ezuri, renegade leader
1 Eternal Witness


I am not sure as to wether the Archdruid should become an Elvish Champion or not. Let me know what you guys think.

Here's a thought: - 4 fyndhorn elves, -1 forest, - 2 Summoner's pact, + 4 Green Sun's Zenith, + 1 Dryad Arbor, + 1 Elvish Archdruid, + 1 Elvish Champion.

The idea's that GSZ functions as llanowars 5-8 with Dryad arbor, and you want to smoothen out draws with GSZ more than Summoner's pact since Pact is trouble when you cast it in multiples (I've lost a game when my double Pact led to a fizzled combo and I couldn't pay 8 next turn). The addition of both the champion and Archdruid MD make for a better aggro Plan B as well as giving an additional big mana elf to go off with. Of course you can just ditch 1 pact and bring in just an Archdruid or Champion. The extra SB slot this creates can also be used to slot in Terrastodon.

[k2thej]

Here's a thought: - 4 fyndhorn elves, -1 forest, - 2 Summoner's pact, + 4 Green Sun's Zenith, + 1 Dryad Arbor, + 1 Elvish Archdruid, + 1 Elvish Champion.

The idea's that GSZ functions as llanowars 5-8 with Dryad arbor, and you want to smoothen out draws with GSZ more than Summoner's pact since Pact is trouble when you cast it in multiples (I've lost a game when my double Pact led to a fizzled combo and I couldn't pay 8 next turn). The addition of both the champion and Archdruid MD make for a better aggro Plan B as well as giving an additional big mana elf to go off with. Of course you can just ditch 1 pact and bring in just an Archdruid or Champion. The extra SB slot this creates can also be used to slot in Terrastodon.

How does GSZ become the other llanowars though, since dryad arbor isnt a spell, you don't draw for it with glimpse. Also, it's a llanowar that costs you 2 instead of one which slows you down. What would be the benefit?

[NihilObstat]

How does GSZ become the other llanowars though, since dryad arbor isnt a spell, you don't draw for it with glimpse. Also, it's a llanowar that costs you 2 instead of one which slows you down. What would be the benefit?

It only costs you 1 mana because Dryad has CMC of 0, but he's not an elf. Though it's a smart move indeed ;)

[Koby]

I think GSZ and Dryad Arbor are well suited if you're going for the NO/Pro plan.

Outside that synergy, I wouldn't run Dryad Arbor simply to be able to find with GSZ. I'm more inclined to test the card as a 3-of rather than a full 4, since it's slightly slower than simply casting your elves. It does give you a small toolbox approach which is worth including. (similar to a one-shot Survival now that it's banned)

[Eldarion]

It only costs you 1 mana because Dryad has CMC of 0, but he's not an elf. Though it's a smart move indeed ;)

Yup. That the dryad's not an elf, and the lack of a draw off of Glimpse, is giving me second thoughts about the whole thing though. Maybe as a 2-3-of to complement 3 Summoner's Pacts? Although it doesn't work well with Glimpse, it does help you tutor for combo pieces and utility, which is really good when you're recovering from removal, and it's easier to pull off than, say, Genesis Wave. The Wish is of course the ultimate toolbox, but with the 2 additional mana needed I'm thinking it's more of a wincon searcher for when you've got a mana engine running rather than something that helps you set up the engine in the first place.

Thanks for the input too, rukcus!

[Infinitium]

Use GSZ to tutor for Wirewood Symbiote when comboing. Problem solved.

[k2thej]

Use GSZ to tutor for Wirewood Symbiote when comboing. Problem solved.

Why would that be better than if you drew a one drop instead of GSZ? You don't draw for the symbiote, then use his ability to untap a dude and play the guy you bounced. So in essence you played a 1/1 insect with no abilities in an elf deck. A one drop elf would be better to have.

[Infinitium]

Because untapping a dude (along with bouncing an already tapped elf, so it's more like untapping 2 elves) effectively pays for the GSZ for 2 itself meaning that it effectively cycles itself for free. Bounce a (tapped) Visionary and you actually drew cards off it.

That, and it's the better card by far compared to summoners pact when not comboing since it can act as an early accelerant and actually allows you to tutor for relevant cards in advance rather than at the last opportune moment. Also, doesn't lose the game by default should the opponent be aböe to answer it.

[k2thej]

Because untapping a dude (along with bouncing an already tapped elf, so it's more like untapping 2 elves) effectively pays for the GSZ for 2 itself meaning that it effectively cycles itself for free. Bounce a (tapped) Visionary and you actually drew cards off it.

That, and it's the better card by far compared to summoners pact when not comboing since it can act as an early accelerant and actually allows you to tutor for relevant cards in advance rather than at the last opportune moment. Also, doesn't lose the game by default should the opponent be aböe to answer it.

Well if we leave the visionary aside for a second though, we are paying 2 mana to get the symbiote in play, effectively untap 2 creatures, and draw one card (off the bounced dude). That is the end result, right? So, if we had played an elf, we would have new untapped elf, drew a card, and spent only one mana.

Thus, you are essentially spending an extra mana to untap one more dude, everything else is the same. So which is better, one mana for an untapped dude and a card, or two mana for 2 untapped dudes and a card?

[Koby]

Well if we leave the visionary aside for a second though, we are paying 2 mana to get the symbiote in play, effectively untap 2 creatures, and draw one card (off the bounced dude). That is the end result, right? So, if we had played an elf, we would have new untapped elf, drew a card, and spent only one mana.

Thus, you are essentially spending an extra mana to untap one more dude, everything else is the same. So which is better, one mana for an untapped dude and a card, or two mana for 2 untapped dudes and a card?

Obv it all depends on the situation at hand. Both seem acceptable. We can't simply say one is better than the other in a vacuum, because there's mitigating circumstances. I used to run into the same issue when Survival was still in my deck. Glimpse is pretty damn good on its own, unless you need a specific card... say Wirewood Symbiote. Or perhaps you drew GSZ instead of that one drop elf and wish to continue comboing off? Given a choice, I'd prefer to cast the elf than tutor for Symbiote, but it all depends on the situation.

The far as Combo Elves without NO/Pro, I would say that Living Wish is the better card since the deck is more geared towards efficient and hyper-low curve for combing. GSZ is immediately recognized as having tons of potential in NO/Pro builds for the reason that it does accelerate you into turn 3 Natural Order.

My instinct leads me to believe that GSZ is better suited for the NO plan rather than the storm/mana Combo variants.

[Nameless Two]

Ok, sorry for not responding to the latest posts, I simply haven't done enough research on the elf combo to feel comfortable giving good advice there.

But on the living wish sideboard: maybe Goblin Bushwhacker (assuming you are running Birchlore Rangers)? Ofcourse only relevant if you dont have the spare 15 mana for Emrakul...

Also, if you want to use Priests of Titania & the like rightaway, you could use Lightning Greaves aswell, Concordant Crossroads isn't the only option. Keep in mind that the Concordant Crossroads open up attacks aswell though.

[Eldarion]

Obv it all depends on the situation at hand. Both seem acceptable. We can't simply say one is better than the other in a vacuum, because there's mitigating circumstances. I used to run into the same issue when Survival was still in my deck. Glimpse is pretty damn good on its own, unless you need a specific card... say Wirewood Symbiote. Or perhaps you drew GSZ instead of that one drop elf and wish to continue comboing off? Given a choice, I'd prefer to cast the elf than tutor for Symbiote, but it all depends on the situation.

Yup, I agree it's situational, though my initial thoughts were for GSZ to replace the redundancy of Fyndhorn Elves with something that, when paired with Dryad Arbor, would allow for the turn 1 accelerant that having 8 llanowars wants to accomplish and yet would allow for versatility and combo piece fetching after turn 1. The turn 1 play is obviously something that Pact can't do because of it's drawback.



The far as Combo Elves without NO/Pro, I would say that Living Wish is the better card since the deck is more geared towards efficient and hyper-low curve for combing. GSZ is immediately recognized as having tons of potential in NO/Pro builds for the reason that it does accelerate you into turn 3 Natural Order.

I think you meant Pact when you said Living Wish here since Wish adds G1 to a creature's casting cost instead of GSZ's G. Also note that I wanted to add this to Neil's list with wishes, in addition to the 3 Living Wishes and 3 summoner's Pact. I agree with Infinitium:

"That, and it's the better card by far compared to summoners pact when not comboing since it can act as an early accelerant and actually allows you to tutor for relevant cards in advance rather than at the last opportune moment. Also, doesn't lose the game by default should the opponent be aböe to answer it."

[k2thej]

I agree that GSZ is better than pact pre-combo, but I think what's important to consider is that you really shouldn't have to tutor for anything until you combo. If you have pact in hand, you can start comboing and play a heritage (or a nettle if you already have one). I'm just not sure why people are so concerned with tutoring pre-combo; I never see a need to do this.

Also, it is worth mentioning that since I want to combo on turn 2 as much as possible, I actually CAN'T tutor pre combo since you can't cant either GSZ or pact turn 1.

[Koby]

I think you meant Pact when you said Living Wish here since Wish adds G1 to a creature's casting cost instead of GSZ's G. Also note that I wanted to add this to Neil's list with wishes, in addition to the 3 Living Wishes and 3 summoner's Pact.

This is what I'm playing right now:

1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
7 Forest

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Living Wish

1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Regal Force
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Elvish Archdruid

4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Elvish Visionary

Sideboard
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Krosan Grip
3 Vexing Shusher
1 Eternal Witness
1 Molten-Tail Masticore
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Nullmage Shepherd



Also, it is worth mentioning that since I want to combo on turn 2 as much as possible, I actually CAN'T tutor pre combo since you can't cant either GSZ or pact turn 1.

Yep.

[Neil]

I agree that GSZ is better than pact pre-combo, but I think what's important to consider is that you really shouldn't have to tutor for anything until you combo. If you have pact in hand, you can start comboing and play a heritage (or a nettle if you already have one). I'm just not sure why people are so concerned with tutoring pre-combo; I never see a need to do this.

Also, it is worth mentioning that since I want to combo on turn 2 as much as possible, I actually CAN'T tutor pre combo since you can't cant either GSZ or pact turn 1.

I agree one never really needs to tutor pre-combo often. The only time when GSZ can be useful is if you do not plan to combo off but need to tutor for a card to deal with a threat that your opponent might have. I don't think that situation arises that often though.

[Eldarion]

Okay first thing is elves are not tier 1 in my opinion because spot removal really hurts this deck.


Don't you think GSZ could help you recover from spot removal? Neil, I also noted a few combo fizzles in your tourney report, in addition to the times spot removal got you in trouble. Seems to me it would be easier to restart the combo with extra tutoring. Guess what I'm saying is that there are good reasons why you don't always win off a turn 2 combo, even if you often have the cards to get it started, and in fact you don't always win, and maybe GSZ can help here. I agree that Pact is better when everything's working perfectly, but sometimes shit happens. :)

[k2thej]

Don't you think GSZ could help you recover from spot removal? Neil, I also noted a few combo fizzles in your tourney report, in addition to the times spot removal got you in trouble. Seems to me it would be easier to restart the combo with extra tutoring. Guess what I'm saying is that there are good reasons why you don't always win off a turn 2 combo, even if you often have the cards to get it started, and in fact you don't always win, and maybe GSZ can help here. I agree that Pact is better when everything's working perfectly, but sometimes shit happens. :)


This is true, but GSZ will slow the combo down, even if it could make restarting it easier. Don't forget that there are many times when you are a turn ahead of removal or a sweeper. I believe that the best thing to protect against combo threats is to try to combo before they can be played.

[NihilObstat]

Hi guys, I just came from a weekly tournament with 14 people. I went 3-1. Tied to 2nd place.

I'll do a quick report just to ask a question:

Zoo- I win g1 at turn 3 after doing mulligan to 5, g2 I lose to 2 Orim's chant, g3 long and difficult combo at 3 life. 2-1
Enchantress- Turn 2 Humility g1..., g2 turn2 Ethersworn canonist followed by t4 humility. I would have won this game if my Tendrils would have been Grapeshot. 0-2
ANT- g1 he combos turn2-3, g2 I land a turn2 Thorn of amethyst which he spend 2 full turns to destroy. Then I draw via Regal Force and play another Thorn of amethyst+many elves. He scoops. 2-1
CT Dreadstill- I lost game 1 to a fast Dreadnought, Mirror entity got me game 2 next to Vexing Shusher and Harmonic Sliver, and game 3 was won crazily this way:
I have 2 Summoner's in hand and Cloudstone Curio. I have Heritage, 2 Nettle, Birchlore and a Nought in front and 3 life. I cast Curio he Spell pierces it, so I summon Quiroin add 1 mana with nettles and summon Visionary again add another mana with nettles, Curio resolves and with 1 untapped forest I cast Qurion return Birchlore, nettle untaps... infinite mana, infinite draw from Visionary, cast Entity and hit with XX/XX Heritage.

Running Curio maindeck, plus Vexing sideboard and 2 Silence which I've been testing seems to be good enough against blue control not running red.

So, my question is, what do you guys side in for enchantress? Just Krosan? I've lost to them lately a couple times, mainly because lucky 2nd turn Humilities... Comments? Ideas?




By the way, another top, 7th of 54
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5568&iddeck=40315

4 Hivemaster allow him to play 3 Chord of calling quite easily, plus making Mirror entity even better next to an army of insects with haste from Crossroads.

[Koby]

Vexing sideboard and 2 Silence which I've been testing seems to be good enough against blue control not running red.


A while ago I ran 2 Silence in my SB to address faster combo matchups. It also seems ridiculously good vs blue decks on critical turns.

[jrw1985]

I've been goldfishing with Combo Elves recently. I've been running a build with

Creature (35)
-/+ 1x Regal Force
-/+ 2x Birchlore Rangers
-/+ 4x Elvish Archdruid
-/+ 4x Fyndhorn Elves
-/+ 4x Heritage Druid
-/+ 4x Llanowar Elves
-/+ 4x Nettle Sentinel
-/+ 4x Priest of Titania
-/+ 4x Quirion Ranger
-/+ 1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
-/+ 3x Wirewood Symbiote
Land (16)
-/+ 8x Forest
-/+ 2x Gaea's Cradle
-/+ 2x Verdant Catacombs
-/+ 4x Windswept Heath
Sorcery (7)
-/+ 3x Genesis Wave
-/+ 4x Glimpse of Nature
Artifact (2)
-/+ 2x Staff of Domination

I used to play Summoner's Pact but I hated relying on being all-in on Glimpse. So I cut the Pacts and replaced them with Genesis Wave and Staff of Domination, and I cut the card-drawing Elvish Visionaries for a full playset of Elvish Archdruid and Priest of Titania. Archdruid and Priest allow Staff to generate infinite mana and draw your deck when you have 5 elves in play. It also is very easily played into off of Glimpse and Wave.

Does anyone play Staff of Domination or Genesis Wave? It seems like they'll work well in theory.

[k2thej]

Anyone thought about running 1 or 2 Spoils of the vault or Demonic Consultation to find a glimpse/Nettle/Heritage?