Obscure Cards with Latent Potential

[Mark Sun]

In about a month? Portent.

[perm]

byour source for your source

[amalek0]

dat necro.

[thecrav]

Somewhat amusing given that the last response was about the impending rise of Portent, which I've heard occasionally as a replacement for Ponder now that Spirit of the Labyrinth exists.

[Phelix]

Didgeridoo
Someday... Wotc will make a minotaur block, and I will laugh deviously screaming "ITOLDYOUSO!!!!" to everyone.

[Zupponn]

If only Wizards would print that amazing Minotaur it needs...

[FTW]

If only Wizards would print that amazing Minotaur it needs...

The tribe's not constructed playable yet, but I think this must have been my happiest day ever playing Limited Magic:



THIS just happened:


//BNG THS THS 8-man draft:

Ragemonger
3 Kragma Warcaller
2 Kragma Butcher
2 Felhide Minotaur
Felhide Brawler
2 Deathbellow Raider

Thunder Brute
Everflame Eidolon
Baleful Eidolon
Cavern Lampad

Fall of the Hammer
Asphyxiate
Coordinated Assault
Ordeal of Purphoros
Rage of Purphoros
Lightning Strike
Portent of Betrayal
Magma Jet

Mountains and Swamps


I can die happy

[TsumiBand]

Forget storm.

THIS just happened:


//BNG THS THS 8-man draft:

Ragemonger
3 Kragma Warcaller
2 Kragma Butcher
2 Fellhide Minotaur
Fellhide Brawler
2 Deathbellow Raider

Thunder Brute
Everflame Eidolon
Baleful Eidolon
Cavern Lampad

Fall of the Hammer
Asphyxiate
Coordinated Assault
Ordeal of Purphoros
Rage of Purphoros
Lightning Strike
Portent of Betrayal
Magma Jet

Mountains and Swamps


I can die happy

6/5 stars, would play in Constructed

[uncletiggy]

Preacher feels like a card that has potential without a home maybe in deadguy? Im curious how good a stolen tnn would be and controlling a permanent with protection from yourself

[FortyThree]

Preacher feels like a card that has potential without a home maybe in deadguy? Im curious how good a stolen tnn would be and controlling a permanent with protection from yourself

You can't steal TNN with preacher. The oracle text says target creature, and it's still you that controls the effect, even if the opponent is choosing.

[uncletiggy]

Well damn you oracle text. Still feels like the card has potential to do powerful things

[snorlaxcom]

Mikokoro + SoL, eh? Can be cool for decks that use 4x spirit and in grindy matchups that are so common in the meta. Sweet with vial, too. Some people are catching on in other threads. Actually makes SoL have maindeck utility instead of just a meta creature.

[SirTylerGalt]

Mikokoro + SoL, eh? Can be cool for decks that use 4x spirit and in grindy matchups that are so common in the meta. Sweet with vial, too. Some people are catching on in other threads. Actually makes SoL have maindeck utility instead of just a meta creature.

Add Vendilion Clique and Notion Thief for even more lulz.

[dreinal13]

I don't know why but I've always thought of Dash Hopes as a really high potential card. It's unplayable in the tier-decks right now, I know, but this Imprinted on an Isochron Scepter is just unfair.

[Serbitar]

How is Dash Hopes on Isochrone Scepter any better than Counterspell on Scepter? Dash Hopes is just bad.

[Sloshthedark]

Add Vendilion Clique and Notion Thief for even more lulz.

+Arcane Denial.. sadly a may draw card...

[TsumiBand]

I don't know why but I've always thought of Dash Hopes as a really high potential card. It's unplayable in the tier-decks right now, I know, but this Imprinted on an Isochron Scepter is just unfair.

Man I wish this were the case. It's kind of the Vexing Devil of Counterspells -- it is a punisher, sure, but neither effect is particularly desirable. 5 life is kind of a lot.

I mean if you're playing against a deck where you know they're packing dumb junk like cheap burn, maybe some dumb small hasty things and then like Fireblast, and you're at 10-11 in the first few turns and you cast something, and they cast Dash Hopes… that sucks, right? Do you force them to have Fireblast in hand? Do you really go to 6 against a deck with like 12-16 maindeck Lightning Bolts?

I can imagine lots of situations where it would be a great card, but unfortunately I can imagine a lot of situations where it's very bad too. I think mostly it is just hilarious though. I would troll the everloving shit out of a Modern tournament with Rakdos Burn featuring Vexing Devil and Dash Hopes. CHOOSE AND PERISH

[HammerAndSickled]

I mean, you pay the life when the card being countered is more valuable to you than 5 life, and you don't pay when the card isn't. If I'm trying to resolve and protect Stoneforge into Batterskull, or Jitte, or Counterbalance or something, sure. If it's a Delver or a Tarmogoyf or a Jace, let it get countered. Of course it depends on board state sometimes but it's usually a pretty snap decision. It might fare better in modern, I dunno. I'd consider it a Boros Charm that only works when they're casting a spell that's relevant.

[JPoJohnson]

I mean, you pay the life when the card being countered is more valuable to you than 5 life, and you don't pay when the card isn't. If I'm trying to resolve and protect Stoneforge into Batterskull, or Jitte, or Counterbalance or something, sure. If it's a Delver or a Tarmogoyf or a Jace, let it get countered. Of course it depends on board state sometimes but it's usually a pretty snap decision. It might fare better in modern, I dunno. I'd consider it a Boros Charm that only works when they're casting a spell that's relevant.

Which may be just what burn needs. How often does burn lose because the other person stabilizes rather than because they have a dead draw land in hand? I would say it's worth testing at the least.

[Serbitar]

Does Burn want Counterspell? If the answer is no, it surely does not want strictly-worse-than-Counterspell Dash Hopes. (Dash Hopes is strictly worse, because you can never force your opponent to let it be Lava Axe – thus the only way it is Lava Axe is when the 5 damage is worse than Counterspell.)

[TsumiBand]

Does Burn want Counterspell? If the answer is no, it surely does not want strictly-worse-than-Counterspell Dash Hopes. (Dash Hopes is strictly worse, because you can never force your opponent to let it be Lava Axe – thus the only way it is Lava Axe is when the 5 damage is worse than Counterspell.)

I do agree with this. I will also pre-emptively recognize that Dash Hopes is not a great topdeck.

However, I also think any card in a burn deck which potentially becomes 5 damage for < 2 mana deserves some considering. It is interesting to explore situations where Dash Hopes is lose-lose. I realize I painted an ideal picture earlier, but consider that a burn-heavy deck should not have difficulty putting the opponent on < 11 life by turn 3. Also consider that the amount of playable Instant-speed burn is slightly higher than the Sorcery speed burn. Whereas a burn deck can only allow, say, Scavenging Ooze to resolve, one does at least have the option of putting the opponent further down the rabbit hole by forcing them to resolve the Ooze through Dash Hopes - or, they can let it hit the bin of course, but then they are letting me counter one of the only spells that I wish the hell would never hit the board against Burn.dec. In fact if they let it resolve through Dash Hopes, I may not need to try to burn the Ooze/DRS/whatever-else at all; I just pegged them for 5 life, I get to keep throwing burns at the FASE.

I mean these are all house-of-cards arguments, I know what I'm saying is a little bit silly. Dash Hopes is just one of those funny cards that I wish was a lot better than it actually is. vOv

[JPoJohnson]

Here are my thoughts: What is the reason that burn typically doesn't finish the game:

1. The opponent wins first
2. The opponent stabilizes through either counter magic, life gain, or threatening board control that needs burned out
3. Your hand sucks and you draw crap

Since we can't do anything about the third after our deck is constructed appropriately, we'll focus on the other two.

1. The opponent wins first:
So, you now have the ability to drop them by and potentially put them in that lethal range or, if they are already low which is likely, you now have a hard counter against them. 5 damage for 2 mana is quite efficient and worth the cost for sure. Now people always speak about the choice cards being bad because it never does what you want it to do. What if it is countering a Sphinx's Revelation in modern, or a Stoneforge Mystic on turn 2 in legacy? Outracing a batterskull can sometimes be tricky if the situation is just barely in the wrong way for you. Being able to counter that to either make it game or hold them off their tempo is a big move.

2. The opponent Stabilizes:
Potentially not anymore. Counter that countertop to put them down into lethal range from your hand, drop them 5 life (that's not damage if that matters in some cases) on T2 and most likely they're already around 10 at the end of T2 with a full grip still in your hand.

I don't think it's the beat all card, but I do think that it merits testing, specifically more in modern than legacy.

[FTW]

1) The opponent calculates that resolving the spell will be the difference between stabilizing/outracing you or not outracing you more than that 5 damage contributes (e.g. it is Leyline of Sanctity or Birthing Pod or Splinter Twin)

--> opponent pays 5 life to let it resolve


2) The opponent calculates that resolving the spell will not make enough of a difference and/or has other threats to try to lean on.

---> opponent lets it be countered and is happy that you wasted BB and a spell to give him another draw step+land drop to try to stabilize


3) The opponent calculates that he cannot outrace you without the spell resolving but that 5 damage will also drop him too low and you will still outrace him

--> opponent guesses which might be marginally less worse (probably let it be countered) but loses either way. it works, but a Boros Charm may have done the same or better. Win-more?


4) Opponent is bad at magic and makes the wrong choice

--> you potentially outrace/stop him from stabilizing and win



So Dash Hopes seems good if you're winning anyway or the opponent is bad at magic. I guess it is strictly better than Boros Charm if the opponent is at 5 life and trying to resolve Leyline of Sanctity or Splinter Twin.

[dreinal13]

It's a choice card, quite a good one as it is more straightforward. Not backbreaking enough still, it is quite an obscure one. Giving your opponent the burden of having to decide outside his/her gameplay can be quite heavy especially to a linear deck where both lifeloss or a well-timed countered spell is critical. In this context, it is a win-more card, but nevertheless could be quite a fancy trick to pull up as it tests gameplay tactics rather than card-for-card effect interactions.

[DragoFireheart]

Does Burn want Counterspell?

No. Burn nevers wants a counterspell. If Burn had its way, it'd look like this:

20 Mox Ruby
36 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast that use artifacts instead of mountains.

[Serbitar]

That was my point: Burn does not want Counterspell, thus, a fortiori, it does not want Dash Hopes since Dash Hopes is ALWAYS worse than Counterspell (assuming your opponent does not mess up, which should not be too hard against a linear deck like Burn.)

[TsumiBand]

No. Burn nevers wants a counterspell. If Burn had its way, it'd look like this:

20 Mox Ruby
36 Galvanic Blast
4 Fireblast that use artifacts instead of mountains.

Ftfy?

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[TsumiBand]

I guess someone should tell all those UR Delver players they don't want their Forces anymore.

Anyway, another card I wish were a card and would be great in imaginary Sligh : Reckless Abandon

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[FTW]

I guess someone should tell all those UR Delver players they don't want their Forces anymore.

Should they also tell the Shardless BUG players not to run Forces? I don't see the connection.

UR Delver is like a more aggressive cousin of RUG with fewer Tarmogoyfs and mana denial and more reach. Its strategy is to play a T1 threat, protect with countermagic and then finish off with burn. Clearly countermagic fits that plan.

Burn's plan is to burn. I don't even...

[TsumiBand]

Oh just let me troll. Jesus.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[rufus]

On the original topic, I'm a little surprised that Rune-Scarred Demon hasn't found a home in some kind of food chain deck.

Greater Good/Momentous Fall have combo potential, but they don't see much in the way of play.

[FTW]

On the original topic, I'm a little surprised that Rune-Scarred Demon hasn't found a home in some kind of food chain deck.

Greater Good/Momentous Fall have combo potential, but they don't see much in the way of play.

I'm tempted to build a rogue deck called "Greater Goyf". Probably with Varolz and Phyrexian Dreadnought

[DragoFireheart]

On the original topic, I'm a little surprised that Rune-Scarred Demon hasn't found a home in some kind of food chain deck.
.

There's no reason to run RSD. Fierce Empath is superior in every way.

[FTW]

There's no reason to run RSD. Fierce Empath is superior in every way.

Maybe he means something to Fierce Empath into if you don't have the Griffin combo to generate enough mana to cast Emrakul. Then you could Empath for and cast Rune-Scarred into infiniGriffin.

RSD might have seen play as a plan B if there wasn't a bigger, fatter, lifelinking guy that puts 7-14 cards in your hand instead of just one for pretty much the same cost.

[TsumiBand]

Does it matter even that Sneak Attack -> RSD, find Emmy, Sneak Attack -> Emmy, attack = 21 damages?

There iswas a Vintage deck called (i think) ICBM Oath that could chain RSDs into forever-Time Walk and then just win. There must be some Legacy parallel, though whether it's better than just straight SnT into Eldrazi, I have no idea.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[rufus]

I'm tempted to build a rogue deck called "Greater Goyf". Probably with Varolz and Phyrexian Dreadnought

Yeah, I'd thought Death's Shadow and Call to the Netherworld, but Varolz is better...

[Zupponn]

Anyway, another card I wish were a card and would be great in imaginary Sligh : Reckless Abandon

4x Foundry Street Denizen
4x Goblin Guide
4x Signal Pest
4x Tattermunge Maniac
4x Vexing Devil
4x Mogg War Marshal
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
4x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Goblin Bushwhacker

4x Reckless Abandon
4x Goblin Grenade

17x Mountain

Live the dream!

[TsumiBand]

4x Foundry Street Denizen
4x Goblin Guide
4x Signal Pest
4x Tattermunge Maniac
4x Vexing Devil
4x Mogg War Marshal
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
4x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Goblin Bushwhacker

4x Reckless Abandon
4x Goblin Grenade

17x Mountain

Live the dream!

No Dash Hopes? gtfo

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Zupponn]

No Dash Hopes? gtfo

They're in the sideboard.

[Benrobnu]

On the original topic, I'm a little surprised that Rune-Scarred Demon hasn't found a home in some kind of food chain deck.

Greater Good/Momentous Fall have combo potential, but they don't see much in the way of play.

I've honestly always wondered if there's a really good food chain deck we are all missing.

[LeoCop 90]

There is goblins , if goblin recruiter will ever come back in legacy :)

[DragoFireheart]

I've honestly always wondered if there's a really good food chain deck we are all missing.

There most likely is. It's only a matter of time TBH.

[apple713]

There most likely is. It's only a matter of time TBH.

The issue with food chain is that its unreliable unless you can tutor for it. Even then its a 1 of. There are no other cards like it to improve consistency.

[TsumiBand]

The issue with food chain is that its unreliable unless you can tutor for it. Even then its a 1 of. There are no other cards like it to improve consistency.

There's an awful lot of ways to tutor for an enchantment though. Granted they tend to be :g::w:, but they're there. Sterling Grove isn't a bad card per se.

I think the problem with Food Chain is that it is an intermediate step in a process that can typically be avoided. Like, maybe if Food Chain just put the creature in the graveyard there would be something nasty there, but the exile effect means that Food Chain is never a two-card combo (except with Misthollow Griffin, but I think it's been done and was never very good). Besides, Green decks would rather just skip the foreplay and cast GSZ or NO anyway.

It works with Goblin Recruiter because of Goblin Ringleader, but to be fair Gobvantage (Recruiter + Ringleader) was a thing way before Food Chain entered the mix. Food Chain filled a really narrow niche as being one of maybe a dozen non-Goblin cards that could potentially go into a Goblin deck. I think that makes it look a lot stronger than it actually is.

[Erdvermampfa]

Captain Sisay (not a joke)

[rufus]

...

I think the problem with Food Chain is that it is an intermediate step in a process that can typically be avoided. Like, maybe if Food Chain just put the creature in the graveyard there would be something nasty there, but the exile effect means that Food Chain is never a two-card combo (except with Misthollow Griffin, but I think it's been done and was never very good). Besides, Green decks would rather just skip the foreplay and cast GSZ or NO anyway....

You can - in theory - run lines of play similar to the ones that Aluren does where you chain through Court Hussar,Raven Familiar, and Sea Gate Oracle into Fierce Empath.

Food Chain+Imperial Recruiter or Goblin Matron can deterministically combo out, but involve some jankiness in the lines of play.

[TsumiBand]

You can - in theory - run lines of play similar to the ones that Aluren does where you chain through Court Hussar,Raven Familiar, and Sea Gate Oracle into Fierce Empath.

Food Chain+Imperial Recruiter or Goblin Matron can deterministically combo out, but involve some jankiness in the lines of play.

Those are still not very good examples of two-card combos. :)

I dunno, I like Food Chain, I used to play FCG when people played Vintage round these parts and he doesn't afraid of anything, but I think if you're just going for some kind of giant beater you're still just better off casting NO. vOv

Besides, I'll just Dash Hopes your Food Chain, and then where will you be? :(

[Holiday]

Dwarven Recruiter is gonna be awesome in like ten years when WotC forgets he exists and prints a set with Dwarves as a viable tribe.

[TsumiBand]

Dwarven Recruiter is gonna be awesome in like ten years when WotC forgets he exists and prints a set with Dwarves as a viable tribe.

Still needs the Ringleader to really break, but yeah.

[Benrobnu]

Still needs the Ringleader to really break, but yeah.

Dwarven Recruiter and Descendants Path, welcome to value town. Descendants Path is a another card in a similar vein to food chain that feels like there's combo potential but is likely just worst than show and tell or reanimator.

[Nonex]

I brewed a RG Food Chain deck that combined 4 of them with 4 Sneak Attack (why tutor for Food Chain when you can simply have 8?). Both did the job of putting an attacking Emrakul in your opponent's face and clear his/her table, and didn't share any hate except Phyrexian Revoker and non-Decay removal. Bad thing is, I never got to win against Delver - and all this was like 1 year ago.

[TsumiBand]

I brewed a RG Food Chain deck that combined 4 of them with 4 Sneak Attack (why tutor for Food Chain when you can simply have 8?). Both did the job of putting an attacking Emrakul in your opponent's face and clear his/her table, and didn't share any hate except Phyrexian Revoker and non-Decay removal. Bad thing is, I never got to win against Delver - and all this was like 1 year ago.

See, this gets me thinking about Rune-Scarred Demon again. Rune-Scarred Demon is the biggest Squadron Hawk ever in a Sneak/Show deck. Sneak Attack for RSD, find RSD, repeat 3x, still get a different card from the last RSD or another beater or some dumb thing… it seems like fun, anyway.

Granted swinging once with Emmy is probably 'good enough' to lock down the game, but just actually ending the game by hitting for 24+ in the air seems good too.

It's probably much worse off a Show and Tell or at least infers a lot more moving parts than Griselbrand or Emrakul, so that may be one reason why it is not considered. Might be a funny budget alternative to those other guys though.

[DragoFireheart]

See, this gets me thinking about Rune-Scarred Demon again. Rune-Scarred Demon is the biggest Squadron Hawk ever in a Sneak/Show deck. Sneak Attack for RSD, find RSD, repeat 3x, still get a different card from the last RSD or another beater or some dumb thing… it seems like fun, anyway.

Granted swinging once with Emmy is probably 'good enough' to lock down the game, but just actually ending the game by hitting for 24+ in the air seems good too.

It's probably much worse off a Show and Tell or at least infers a lot more moving parts than Griselbrand or Emrakul, so that may be one reason why it is not considered. Might be a funny budget alternative to those other guys though.

Well with good Food Chain, Sneak Attack, and one Rune-Scarred Demon, you could do RSD, get three more, get a Griselbrand, discard one to Food Chain, draw with Griselbrand, and then just drop more creatures.

[TsumiBand]

Well with good Food Chain, Sneak Attack, and one Rune-Scarred Demon, you could do RSD, get three more, get a Griselbrand, discard one to Food Chain, draw with Griselbrand, and then just drop more creatures.

yous trollin' >:(

With Sneak Attack you get to pull the "Goryo's Vengeance in Modern" trick of chaining your fatties, dropping Emrakul, attacking, and then if the opponent somehow manages to do something dumb like Holy Day or Orim's Chant or whatever stymies your attack phase, Emrakul still hits the yard and shuffles all the things back in so you haven't completely tossed the combo out with the bath water. Food Chain would straight exile your creatures and they wouldn't be recycled with Emrakul. Sadness abound.

[Nonex]

I'm taking advantage of the spark of interest in the concept and put my last iteration I played with:

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Taiga
4 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Gaea's Cradle

4 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Fierce Empath
1 Ghitu Slinger
4 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Deranged Hermit
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Food Chain
4 Sneak Attack
3 Sylvan Library

SB:
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Sylvok Replica
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Heap Doll
4 Carpet of Flowers

You can clearly see why turn 1 protected Delver was problematic, especially in Canadian Threshold. Ghitu Slinger was the last silver bullet I tried against it (it started as a Phyrexian Metamorph, since Mental Misstep was still there and killing RUG's Progenitus was important). I'm not that fond of Sylvan Library, honestly; sometimes I won thanks to it, sometimes it costed me the game. If I had time to play anymore, I'd replace them with Xenagos the Reveler: he doesn't fuck up your cascades and all his abilities are relevant. There's always the option of splashing blue and run Shardless Agent.

However, what counts is that I never got a top 8 with this deck, despite getting close sometimes. That should indicate something.

[Benrobnu]

Any food chain list must include Misthollow Griffin

[FTW]

I'm taking advantage of the spark of interest in the concept and put my last iteration I played with:

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Taiga
4 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Gaea's Cradle

4 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Fierce Empath
1 Ghitu Slinger
4 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Deranged Hermit
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Food Chain
4 Sneak Attack
3 Sylvan Library

SB:
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Sylvok Replica
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Heap Doll
4 Carpet of Flowers

You can clearly see why turn 1 protected Delver was problematic, especially in Canadian Threshold. Ghitu Slinger was the last silver bullet I tried against it (it started as a Phyrexian Metamorph, since Mental Misstep was still there and killing RUG's Progenitus was important). I'm not that fond of Sylvan Library, honestly; sometimes I won thanks to it, sometimes it costed me the game. If I had time to play anymore, I'd replace them with Xenagos the Reveler: he doesn't fuck up your cascades and all his abilities are relevant. There's always the option of splashing blue and run Shardless Agent.

However, what counts is that I never got a top 8 with this deck, despite getting close sometimes. That should indicate something.

But how does that... i dont even..

I get that cascade is a cool ability but I don't get why a Food Chain deck needs to cascade. Are you trying to cascade into Food Chain? Why not just Ponder/Brainstorm into it instead? Are you trying to cascade into extra creatures to have more fodder to generate more mana? I'm guessing that's what Imperial Recruiter is for too (chain 4 recruiters into visionary or smth for +6 mana). Instead of paying 2RG for Bloodbraid, why not just pay 2UU for Misthollow Griffin instead and get +infinity mana?

There's already a thread under New/Developmental on Food Chain Griffin. Their lists look more polished. Maybe try there for ideas?

[Nonex]

The main reason is that I started tinkering with it far before Griffin was printed. When it got printed, I saw that it can't be fetched by Recruiter or Empath, getting mana for the fatties wasn't really a problem to begin with (Deranged Hermit feeds Kozilek alone, and Bloodbraid Elf into Recruiter -> Empath does as well), and Sneak Attack gets nothing from it, so why should I try it in this kind of list? Griffin demands a different list, and plenty of people are already testing it, so I don't have anything to contribute. As I said, I don't have any more time to play anyway, so it doesn't matter.

The thing is that Food Chain and Sneak Attack have a pretty decent synergy together, and they might spawn a new kind of deck. Food for thought and little else.

[DragoFireheart]

The thing is that Food Chain and Sneak Attack have a pretty decent synergy together, and they might spawn a new kind of deck. Food for thought and little else.

But you would still want Show and Tell somewhere in there.

[Benrobnu]

But you would still want Show and Tell somewhere in there.

I've been following the developing decks thread for Food Chain and have been pretty inspired to brew up a bant food-show decklist.

[TsumiBand]

Actually, for serious this time.

Insidious Dreams

Stack the top X cards of your library, cast a draw-7 (Reforge the Soul? Eh? Eh?), pop a LED in response, something something profit??

EDIT: Even if you're not trying to just cast a worse Doomsday, this is still Vampiric Tutor kind-of. Works okay with throwing stuff in the graveyard. I don't know exactly. I'm kind of a shitty deckbuilder if I can't maindeck Lightning Bolt or Serra Avenger. vOv

[FTW]

The thing is that Food Chain and Sneak Attack have a pretty decent synergy together, and they might spawn a new kind of deck. Food for thought and little else.

In theory. However, you're running 4 Sneak Attack in a deck with 0 Brainstorm, 0 Ponder and only 4 fatties (and only 2 Fierce Empath). So Sneak Attack seems significantly less effective than in SneakShow (and even in that deck with 12 cantrips, when facing disruption you can get stuck with fatties in hand and no way to play them or with Sneak Attack out but no fatties).

Yeah, in Magical XmasLand (or against Zoo), you can pay 3R: Sneak Attack, R: Imperial Recruiter for Empath, R: Empath, R: attack with fatty. But that still seems a bit awkward and less efficient than most SneakAttack decks. Meanwhile, Sneak Attack makes you sacrifice the creatures EOT so if your fatty gets killed, you don't still have those bodies next turn to pitch to a potential Food Chain. I guess there's some synergy (both are creature-based fatty decks), but there's also some anti-synergy.

And what if you draw a Sneak Attack + dorks + Bloodbraid Elf hand? Awkward. BBE is great with Food Chain, bad with Sneak Attack. What if you draw a hand with Empath, dorks and fatties and Food Chain but no Recruiters or BBE or Hermit? Can't generate enough mana to actually play out the fatties. This seems like one of those double 2-card combo decks where there's some synergy but if you draw the wrong combinations of combo pieces then you kind of flop. If there were cantrips, it might be easier to smooth that out.

I think there's potential but I would want more ways to smooth out my draws. Blue seems good even if not playing Griffin.

At the very least I would make one of your fatties Griselbrand so if you cheat something out and it gets answered, you have a way to draw into more gas.

[FTW]

Actually, for serious this time.

Insidious Dreams

Stack the top X cards of your library, cast a draw-7 (Reforge the Soul? Eh? Eh?), pop a LED in response, something something profit??

EDIT: Even if you're not trying to just cast a worse Doomsday, this is still Vampiric Tutor kind-of. Works okay with throwing stuff in the graveyard. I don't know exactly. I'm kind of a shitty deckbuilder if I can't maindeck Lightning Bolt or Serra Avenger. vOv

I really want to make that card work, but I don't see any reason why a combo deck would get into a situation where it would prefer to go:

3B, discard your hand: EOT mini-Doomsday

instead of

BBB: Doomsday
or
4B: EOT Ad Nauseam

Sadly it would often be mini-Doomsday because your hand size would shrink if you play rituals to get to 3B or if you float any cantrips or played Moxen/LEDs first or got hit by discard spells. (or if you actually wanted to keep some cards in hand, like rituals or draw spells or tutors or whatever, since most Doomsday piles involve having leftover resources)

I guess the benefit is you don't actually need black rituals to cast it so you could play a combo deck with like 20 mana sources, 4 dreams, 5-8 stackable combo pieces to make different winning piles, 4 LED, and then like 24 discard/protection/hate cards/cantrips. Since you're pitching your hand pre-combo anyway and then stacking your deck to combo, more than half the deck is completely irrelevant to comboing off. So you can run a metric ton of protection/disruption/cantrips. Seems like that opens up a lot of design space.

[rufus]

I really want to make that card work, but I don't see any reason why a combo deck would get into a situation where it would prefer to go:

3B, discard your hand: EOT mini-Doomsday
...

It discards rather than exiling, which opens up a bunch of possibilities with flashback, dredge, or reanimator. It's also got solid potential for cascade where you'd be stacking two cards - or if you're feeling demented Spellshift.

[Holiday]

OK, I've never seen Spellshift until today. I've read it a few times and I'm not exactly sure how it works. I'm assuming you want to counter your own spell for 4 mana and then play a free instant or sorcery? How do people use this card?

[FTW]

OK, I've never seen Spellshift until today. I've read it a few times and I'm not exactly sure how it works. I'm assuming you want to counter your own spell for 4 mana and then play a free instant or sorcery? How do people use this card?

Combo deck with Gitaxian Probe, Brainstorm, SDT, Lim-Dul's Vault, Spellshift, Personal Tutor and some flashy sorcery like Cruel Ultimatum or Worldfire or Biorhythm?

Using LDV, Personal Tutor, SDT and/or Brainstorm, stack the desired sorcery on top of your library. Then Probe/cantrip and Spellshift your own spell FTW

[rufus]

Combo deck with Gitaxian Probe, Brainstorm, SDT, Lim-Dul's Vault, Spellshift, Personal Tutor and some flashy sorcery like Cruel Ultimatum or Worldfire or Biorhythm?

Well, Dragonstorm or <Sigh> Enter the Infinite are probably better instant wins.

[FTW]

Well, Dragonstorm or <Sigh> Enter the Infinite are probably better instant wins.

Dragonstorm I guess since you'd have minimum storm 2.
2 Hellkites + Karrthus is pretty lethal.

[TsumiBand]

I really want to make that card work, but I don't see any reason why a combo deck would get into a situation where it would prefer to go:

3B, discard your hand: EOT mini-Doomsday

instead of

BBB: Doomsday
or
4B: EOT Ad Nauseam

Sadly it would often be mini-Doomsday because your hand size would shrink if you play rituals to get to 3B or if you float any cantrips or played Moxen/LEDs first or got hit by discard spells. (or if you actually wanted to keep some cards in hand, like rituals or draw spells or tutors or whatever, since most Doomsday piles involve having leftover resources)

I guess the benefit is you don't actually need black rituals to cast it so you could play a combo deck with like 20 mana sources, 4 dreams, 5-8 stackable combo pieces to make different winning piles, 4 LED, and then like 24 discard/protection/hate cards/cantrips. Since you're pitching your hand pre-combo anyway and then stacking your deck to combo, more than half the deck is completely irrelevant to comboing off. So you can run a metric ton of protection/disruption/cantrips. Seems like that opens up a lot of design space.

I'm not saying it would necessarily be Spring Tide or even a variant of it, but a deck that could take advantage of a spell like Ideas Unbound, or something something Memory Jar, but I suppose by the time you negate the cost of Memory Jar you have to ask yourself why you didn't pull the same trick with a robot that wins the game, right?

Is it necessarily bad if the card only reads like this:

3B
Instant

As an additional cost to play this, discard a card from your hand.

Search your library for a card, shuffle your library, and then put that card on top of your library.

I mean that seems… slightly better than Diabolic Tutor. Which doesn't mean much, but then I suppose it depends on what you're tossing in the bin.

EDIT - There's always this piece of shit to go with it I guess.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=106473&type=card

[rufus]

...EDIT - There's always this piece of shit to go with it I guess.
...

There are some other obscure options with hidden potential...
Salvage Titan
Call to the Netherworld
and a less obscure one...
Basking Rootwalla

If you're willing to go all-in EOT Insidious Dreams can set up miracles quite nicely. I'm not sure I can come up with a compelling 3 or 4 card pile though. (Insidious Dreams-> Reforge the Soul, Past in Flames, ...?)

I do wonder about: Insidious Dreams -> Violent Outburst,Living End
In something like this:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13540-Deck-Cascade-End

Stacking the deck as a game plan opens up the ability to play cantrips (Brainstorm) and acceleration (Dark Ritual and Song of the Damned), or even Fluctuator.

[BVB09]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/di/131.jpg

No one is discussing this card? Yesterday Greg Hatch used it in a Blue creature deck with Spellstutter, Cursecatcher, Judges's Familiar, Nivmagus Elemental and Martyr of Frost.
I haven't seen it before

[TsumiBand]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/di/131.jpg

No one is discussing this card? Yesterday Greg Hatch used it in a Blue creature deck with Spellstutter, Cursecatcher, Judges's Familiar, Nivmagus Elemental and Martyr of Frost.
I haven't seen it before

Ironically, I think the only problem with this guy is that the kinds of Blue creatures you'd want to play with it such as Geist of St Traft and/or True-Name Nemesis are better off going into the red zone than they are tapping for cards.

EDIT - however you're right to point it out. Sky Hussar seems like it has a lot of potential as a hard-to-disrupt draw engine.

[Barook]

It definitely has potential, but due to the color requirements, it's kinda hard to figure out a deck that can make optimal use of it. E.g. it wouldn't fit into Death & Taxes at all.

Something involving tons of white tokens? Maybe Soul Sisters? :really:

[TsumiBand]

It definitely has potential, but due to the color requirements, it's kinda hard to figure out a deck that can make optimal use of it. E.g. it wouldn't fit into Death & Taxes at all.

Something involving tons of white tokens? Maybe Soul Sisters? :really:

<3 soul sisters

It'd feel terrible to not ever cast that guy in a pinch, but i could see that

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[trollking21]

Maybe death and taxes? They could say it off of cavern if they had to. They also have a lot of white creatures which may not be attacking in certain matchups like mother against combo, or Thalia against RUG
Even there it's a pretty far stretch

[thecrav]

I'm thinking a U/W deck that has heavy focus on artifacts or enchantments so you can E tutor at end of turn, draw that card AND your draw for the turn.

Perhaps something similar to CawCartel?

[Mammutti]

Feels like this guy loves Serra Avenger and Brimaz. Or anything with vigilance. Maybe some kind of UW Death and Taxes brew?

[FTW]

Feels like this guy loves Serra Avenger and Brimaz. Or anything with vigilance. Maybe some kind of UW Death and Taxes brew?

Creatures with Vigilance can't attack while tapped....

[Mammutti]

Seems like I need to rtfc before posting. My bad. In this case I don't think it's ever going to see play anywhere..

[Mewens]

I keep looking at Perplexing Chimera and wondering about it.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=378420&type=card

Clearly, casting cost is a problem (4U ...), but it really provides hard-to-overcome protection for other permanents. The fact that it's easily recurrable and tutorable in Bant implies it might have a home in some kind of enchantress build (where you have more mana, and where it draws you cards and gains shroud) -- but the thing that's intriguing with it is Homeward Path. The ability to just steal two spells a turn before your opponent can even interact with you seems strong if you're in a shell that wants that kind of thing (again, looking at enchantress, but I could also see some kind of miracles- or landstill-esque deck wanting this).

[theillest]

Seems like I need to rtfc before posting. My bad. In this case I don't think it's ever going to see play anywhere..

The card was brought up because it saw play.

[FTW]

I keep looking at Perplexing Chimera and wondering about it.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=378420&type=card

Clearly, casting cost is a problem (4U ...), but it really provides hard-to-overcome protection for other permanents. The fact that it's easily recurrable and tutorable in Bant implies it might have a home in some kind of enchantress build (where you have more mana, and where it draws you cards and gains shroud) -- but the thing that's intriguing with it is Homeward Path. The ability to just steal two spells a turn before your opponent can even interact with you seems strong if you're in a shell that wants that kind of thing (again, looking at enchantress, but I could also see some kind of miracles- or landstill-esque deck wanting this).

A blue card that costs more than 3 mana and doesn't make infinite mana, make your spells all free, or let you Brainstorm every turn?

I really like that interaction with Homeward Path. I wonder if that is better suited to Commander.

Seems like Enchantress might be able to use it as an alternate lock piece. Typically anything that costs that much mana for them is a win condition. I wonder if it is still too much for them to cast in the stages when they need protection. But the one thing they can't control is the stack and this does a very good job of that.

[TsumiBand]

It's 'Seal of Spelljack' though. I dunno about this one.

Homeward Path is cute, but it doesn't really do anything else. Maybe you could get away with like Gilded-Drake.dec or something but it seems too randomly hard to assemble.

[FTW]

It's 'Seal of Spelljack' though. I dunno about this one.

Homeward Path is cute, but it doesn't really do anything else. Maybe you could get away with like Gilded-Drake.dec or something but it seems too randomly hard to assemble.

I thought about that, but Homeward Path would give their stolen creature back too :( Only works with jacking spells.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It's 'Seal of Spelljack' though. I dunno about this one.

Homeward Path is cute, but it doesn't really do anything else. Maybe you could get away with like Gilded-Drake.dec or something but it seems too randomly hard to assemble.

You need Greater Gargadon/Good to do anything useful with HW Path.

[Tylert]

You need Greater Gargadon/Good to do anything useful with HW Path.

Time to play djoira in EDH, because you're already playing homeward path so your ELdrazis are not bribed :)

[Kagehisa]

You can use it with Vedalken Shackles to get the chimera back, start a soft lock like countertop, steal or redirect your opponent's spell and win.

[Darkenslight]

You can use it with Vedalken Shackles to get the chimera back, start a soft lock like countertop, steal or redirect your opponent's spell and win.

I don't think this has any value for Legacy, but this could be amazing for Modern.

[Tylert]

I don't think this has any value for Legacy, but this could be amazing for Modern.

Too bad the ability is triggered and not activated... You could play splinter twin on the chimera for another soft lock :)

[NilsH]

I thought about that, but Homeward Path would give their stolen creature back too :( Only works with jacking spells.

Works with blinking effects like Astral Slide.

[DarthVicious]

Dream Salvage

I dream of drawing more than five cards off this.

When Leyline of Anticipation was spoiled, I said I couldn't wait for someone to break it. I'm still waiting...

[TsumiBand]

This might just be a holdover from EDH, but Dreams of the Dead has a unique effect that can be subverted with the huge number of blink effects that are playable these days. It's got the same 'Unearth' replacement effect wording, so exiling it to something else doesn't cause the DotD replacement effect to 'take over' and prevent it from returning. And since it re-enters the battlefield as a new instance of the card, there's no memory of the Cumulative Upkeep requirement.

The unfortunate caveat being that it can only target white or black creatures, but it isn't like those colors are at a loss for giant dickhead creatures that ruin the game (maybe not in a Emrakul sort of way, but you know what I mean).

[rufus]

...

The unfortunate caveat being that it can only target white or black creatures, but it isn't like those colors are at a loss for giant dickhead creatures that ruin the game (maybe not in a Emrakul sort of way, but you know what I mean).

I think it's more of an issue of mana cost: 6 mana for a Dreams of the Dead activation, or 2 mana for Shallow Grave/Animate Dead.

[TsumiBand]

Ugh i just rtfc'd, it does cost 3U to cast doesn't it. Baaaalls

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Ugh i just rtfc'd, it does cost 3U to cast doesn't it. Baaaalls




Well, ther's always EDH!

[Darkenslight]

This might just be a holdover from EDH, but Dreams of the Dead has a unique effect that can be subverted with the huge number of blink effects that are playable these days. It's got the same 'Unearth' replacement effect wording, so exiling it to something else doesn't cause the DotD replacement effect to 'take over' and prevent it from returning. And since it re-enters the battlefield as a new instance of the card, there's no memory of the Cumulative Upkeep requirement.

The unfortunate caveat being that it can only target white or black creatures, but it isn't like those colors are at a loss for giant dickhead creatures that ruin the game (maybe not in a Emrakul sort of way, but you know what I mean).

...Is it wrong that I'm pairing this with Obzedat, Ghost Council, Ashen Rider and Angel of Despair?

[Richard Cheese]

Ugh i just rtfc'd, it does cost 3U to cast doesn't it. Baaaalls

sent from phone, don't be a dick

Can't be Abrupt Decay'd!

[TsumiBand]

...Is it wrong that I'm pairing this with Obzedat, Ghost Council, Ashen Rider and Angel of Despair?

That's exactly right, actually. :)

The obvious go-to would be Deadeye Navigator to circumvent all the upkeep triggers forever with everything ever, but I get the sense that all of these "blink-on-a-stick" effects are going to come to a head pretty soon and there will be a divine mandate to axe some of the cheapest enablers (and DEN is probably #1 with a bullet).

[rufus]

Just to beat a dead horse, Deadeye Navigator is neither black nor white.

Herald of Leshrac could be a funny thing to pull -- if you stack the :2: cumulative upkeep on top of the land control one, then it can permanently steal lands.

[Bobmans]

Herald of Leshrac

With that new card, Aggressive Mining (You can't play lands. Sacrifice a land: Draw two cards. Activate this ability only once each turn.).

[TsumiBand]

Just to beat a dead horse, Deadeye Navigator is neither black nor white.

Herald of Leshrac could be a funny thing to pull -- if you stack the :2: cumulative upkeep on top of the land control one, then it can permanently steal lands.
I know but it's in the same color as the aforementioned enchantment, so it's a relevant way to skirt the negative effects. Sadly it cannot be reanimated by the card, unless you play one of the myriad Alter Reality effects in Blue. However, that would be terrible.

Herald of Leshrac returns the lands when it leaves the battlefield (not just when upkeep isnt paid), so unless you wanna play Trickbind and friends that's a nonbo Actually nvm, RTFP ACTUALLY WAIT I was right, but not for the reason I thought I was.

Reading Herald of Leshrac's LTB ability - When Herald of Leshrac leaves the battlefield, each player gains control of each land he or she owns that you control - it returns control of ALL lands you control to their owners, regardless of HOW they came to be yours. So if you Blatant Thievery for a land from X opponents, then play Herald of Leshrac, then it leaves the battlefield for any reason, the LTB trigger returns any and all lands that you control but don't own. So it's still a nonbo, it's just dumber than I thought it was.


Herald of Leshrac + Aggressive Mining

Ohai. That's the stuff.

[Lurker101]

I think Eon Hub has potential as a hard lock with Stasis or the Parallax enchantments and it also works great with anything with cumulative upkeep like Mystic Remora. I've been working on a deck with some of these interactions so hopefully I'll have a list posted in a few days. I also think that Catalyst Stone may have potential with how good some of the flashback cards are getting. Clear the Land is another card I really like and have been working with for awhile. I've been using Scouting Trek to stack 5 lands on top of my library and then Clear the Land gives my 5 drops while exiling most, if not all, of your opponent's top cards. I'd also like to see Salvage Titan, Visions of Beyond and Jace's Phantasm to work.

[rufus]

... I also think that Catalyst Stone may have potential with how good some of the flashback cards are getting. ...

That's got some interesting synergies with Past in Flames...

[mox toaster]

That's got some interesting synergies with Past in Flames...

It could have some application to the mirror match between Past in Flames decks. Running it to boost your own combo doesn't seem amazing. Let's say your shell is ANT, arguably the best Past in Flames deck. You get minimal benefits from the cost reduction, since Dark Rit, discard spells, and cantrips will be reduced by :0: and Cabal Rit and Infernal Tutor will be reduced by :1:. If you're running them, Grim Tutor will be reduced by :0: and Burning Wish by :1: (in the somewhat uncommon situation that you're flashing back Burning Wish, in which case it was pitched to LED or other discard effects). So the only spells that could see the full cost reduction are Past in Flames, Tendrils of Agony/Empty the Warrens, and Ad Nauseam. Of those, you'd almost never cast AN if you're going off with flashback, Tendrils rarely gets cast from the graveyard, nor does Empty (which is not even in all sideboards and even fewer mainboards). I also have a hard time seeing it purely as a hate card against flashback decks, since most sideboards have better answers for the graveyard.

[rufus]

It could have some application to the mirror match between Past in Flames decks. Running it to boost your own combo doesn't seem amazing. Let's say your shell is ANT, arguably the best Past in Flames deck. ...

Sure, it's not so great there, but in a deck with stuff like Intution,Breakthrough,Meditate, Trash for Treasure and Act on Impulse it seems like it could be positively stupid.

[Finn]

Sure, it's not so great there, but in a deck with stuff like Intution,Breakthrough,Meditate, Trash for Treasure and Act on Impulse it seems like it could be positively stupid.

In bygone days, you could see players packing Sapphire Medallions to fulfill the same role you folks are discussing. In that case there was quite a lot less baggage (no graveyard requirement, no splash color) and you can't really make a go of Sapphire Medallion these days. It does nothing on its own. That don't fly in Legacy.

This is Legacy! {kicks sneering guy with cool mustache into some big, pointless hole in the ground}

[TsumiBand]

This is Legacy! {kicks sneering guy with cool mustache into some big, pointless hole in the ground}

Dude. Spoilers.


Anyway, I refuse to believe that any format where SFM is a staple has no room for Deftblade Elite. I want to be a dick and like play it with Basilisk Collar or just anything that gives him +butt and start fucking up combat math. "Hey nice chump blocker for your 'walker, I feel like he should get to know my 1/6 though. So these guys get through, right"

[mox toaster]

Sure, it's not so great there, but in a deck with stuff like Intution,Breakthrough,Meditate, Trash for Treasure and Act on Impulse it seems like it could be positively stupid.

You're not wrong but we're still lacking a shell where we'd have good reason to cast those spells from the graveyard. Like Finn said, stuff that doesn't do anything on its own, unless it's a powerful piece of an engine (e.g. Candelabra), is hard to find room for.

[Humphrey]

Captain Sisay (not a joke)

I used to run her in Maverick. Fetching Thrun, Kor Haven, Karakas, Gaddock, Thalia, Jitte..

[rufus]

I used to run her in Maverick. Fetching Thrun, Kor Haven, Karakas, Gaddock, Thalia, Jitte..

These days Mox Opal might also make the list in some deck.

[Bertrand Hustle]

I think Eon Hub has potential as a hard lock with Stasis or the Parallax enchantments and it also works great with anything with cumulative upkeep like Mystic Remora. I've been working on a deck with some of these interactions so hopefully I'll have a list posted in a few days. I also think that Catalyst Stone may have potential with how good some of the flashback cards are getting. Clear the Land is another card I really like and have been working with for awhile. I've been using Scouting Trek to stack 5 lands on top of my library and then Clear the Land gives my 5 drops while exiling most, if not all, of your opponent's top cards. I'd also like to see Salvage Titan, Visions of Beyond and Jace's Phantasm to work.
I thought about Eon Hub with Solitary Confinement, only problem with this is that it shuts off Mirri's Guile. Otherwise it strengthens the lock and also allows you to skip the upkeep of Elephant Grass

[iamajellydonut]

I thought about Eon Hub with Solitary Confinement, but I'm not sure how that interaction would work. Does Confinement Fizzle?

If you don't have an upkeep, it doesn't trigger.

[Bertrand Hustle]

If you don't have an upkeep, it doesn't trigger.
Thanks, edited my post to reflect that.

[uncletiggy]

I feel like lightning greaves should be discussed it sees play in mud at best but I feel like there has to be better uses for it.

[Bobmans]

I feel like lightning greaves should be discussed it sees play in mud at best but I feel like there has to be better uses for it.

Lightning Greaves is often an underestimated card. It does so many things. It ramps with a Metalworker, instant activates a forgemaster and it makes the colossus win you the game that same turn. Besides this it protect the robots. In MUD this is the right card in the right deck, but i don't know any other deck where it would be as powerfull as in this deck. I mean, at best it hastes and protects a goyf or a griselbrand, but it would be kinda clunky.

[TsumiBand]

Before Elves was a thing I had a weird Elf deck that used Lightning Greaves as a stand-in for Concordant Crossroads. It was passable; there were never times when the deck was at a loss for targets, so I could play a new Priest of Titania, equip it, get :g:x7 mana, move it to any random airhead, untap it with whatever, move it back, add moar :g:, etc. This was way before Craterhoof so ultimately I needed to either oops into a Heedless One or play a series of the cycling guy that gives +2+2 and the morph Elf that gives trample. It was not the most fantastic deck ever, but that wasn't Greaves' fault.

[uncletiggy]

I was thinking more along the lines of junk colors. hasted shrouded knights deathrites stoneforges and marti lage tokens.

[ESG]

I was thinking more along the lines of junk colors. hasted shrouded knights deathrites stoneforges and marti lage tokens.

I could get behind a Greaves on a Gaddock Teeg. Also nice with Cavern of Souls in that Greaves can be played off colorless mana.

[maharis]

Amid all the blueness of the format, I keep coming back to Cold-Eyed Selkie. It gets through almost every deck in the format, and if you can pump it you can draw a lot of gas. But 3 mana to do 1 and draw a card if it doesn't die in a turn is really bad. So I tried it in Stoneforge decks but it was just so much worse than most other 3-drops.

But then I remembered Knight of New Alara. That makes Selkie Ancestral every turn. It also buffs Deathrite Shaman, Qasali Pridemage, Gaddock Teeg, Judge's Familiar, KoTR and lots of other cards. And if you use that to pump it you can play cards like Null Rod/Stony Silence to give you an edge against popular strategies. Sort of like a bizarro-Maverick deck. In Junk you can play lots of disruption and removal. Maybe?

[trollking21]

If I had to play cold-eyed selkie it would be in merfolk. It comes down typically at least a 2/2 if not more. The problem is is it better then a lord

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Selkie was good in Bant, as exalted triggers made you draw a lot. Otoh, straight aggro Bant is not good anymore, unless I'm missing something. Even then, I'd play it as a GSZ target only.

[maharis]

Right, I'm just thinking of a potential new shell to abuse the card. It might be more of a Knight of New Alara deck. DRS and Judge's Familiar (and even Dryad Militant) are good reasons to build around Knight that are relatively new. Selkie provides an engine to draw into your disruption. Lots of the pieces are GSZ-able to boot. And you wouldn't be dependent on the graveyard or Stoneforge Mystic like many Junk builds. So you can play RIP/Stony Silence without fear.

[owerbart]

Academy Rector should see more play, I agree also with Earthcraft getting unbanned.

What do you guys think about Goblin Recruiter? I'm not a Goblins player but I think the card is quite fair right now and may give a little boost to a deck that isn't like Tier S anymore.

[TsumiBand]

What do you guys think about Goblin Recruiter? I'm not a Goblins player but I think the card is quite fair right now and may give a little boost to a deck that isn't like Tier S anymore.

Every god damn time, swear to god

[iamajellydonut]

Every god damn time, swear to god

Only thing this time is I can't tell if he's mistaken threads or doesn't know its potential has already been tapped.

[rufus]

Only thing this time is I can't tell if he's mistaken threads or doesn't know its potential has already been tapped.

Maybe he meant Dwarven Recruiter with, say, Goblin Charbelcher, but he got his cardnames crossed :wink:

[iamajellydonut]

I'd play that combo.

[AggroControl]

Dude. Spoilers.


Anyway, I refuse to believe that any format where SFM is a staple has no room for Deftblade Elite. I want to be a dick and like play it with Basilisk Collar or just anything that gives him +butt and start fucking up combat math. "Hey nice chump blocker for your 'walker, I feel like he should get to know my 1/6 though. So these guys get through, right"

Deftblade Elite and Godsend are on the edge of a playable combo in a list that has many other targets for Abrupt Decay so that Godsend might survive a few turns after it lands.

Maybe white creature control with Aether Vial and a host of good 1cc creatures so that the vials never had to be ticked higher than 1?

4x Mother of Runes
4x Deftblade Elite
4x Devoted Caretaker
4x Weathered Wayfarer
3x Figure of Destiny
2x Doomed Traveler
2x Kor Duelist
2x Student of Warfare

4x Swords to Plowshares

4x Aether Vial
3x Basilisk Collar
3x Godsend

4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
4x Marsh Flats
3x Arid Mesa
4x Scrubland
2x Plains

Sideboard

3x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
2x Diabolic Edict
3x Engineered Explosives
4x Leyline of Sanctity

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Vial has little sense in a cmc1 deck, as it doesn't allow for big manacheats like Goblins (cmc 1-4,75) or DnT (cmc 1-3). But then agan it'll be super reliable and it would make creatures uncounterable flash, so yeah...

[AggroControl]

Vial has little sense in a cmc1 deck, as it doesn't allow for big manacheats like Goblins (cmc 1-4,75) or DnT (cmc 1-3). But then agan it'll be super reliable and it would make creatures uncounterable flash, so yeah...

A vial at 1cc is a resource you can quickly build. I don't know that the list of creatures above is good enough to support such a resource. I was just trying to do D&T lite with an emphasis on aggro and control. It's easy to see that list getting totally overpowered by the meta.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'd love to get some value of Bottled Cloister and Fool's Tome, that'll be hillarious.

[TsumiBand]

Woah, Godsend and Deftblade Elite. That... sounds... awesome.

Really it sounds like something that only works in Game 1, and maybe just one time. Still, I want to see it happen. WW vs SnT, I turn 1 Deftblade they turn 1 Show for Emmy, I drop Godsend off it because of course it's in my opening hand, where else would it be. Then I play dat Ancient Tomb, equip, send Spaghetti to the farm. Sure they could pull another and SnT it again, OR I could obviously just always have Nevermore on top of my library, nbd.

[rufus]

I'd love to get some value of Bottled Cloister and Fool's Tome, that'll be hillarious.

Maybe a little Blood Scrivener,Balancing Act,Brink of Madness or Damia, Sage of Stone to go with that?

[trollking21]

Maybe a little Blood Scrivener,Balancing Act,Brink of Madness or Damia, Sage of Stone to go with that?

Damia + sire of insanity = best new combo deck ever. You get 7 fresh cards every turn they get none

[Cire]

Any potential in this "combo"

turn 1 - Land - Mana Dork
turn 2 - Land - (tap mana dork) Blood Funnel + Donate (sac mana dork)

Opponent can't cast non-creature spells now unless he cast's creature spells first - combine with counters, draw and spot removal?

[Scott]

I'd love to get some value of Bottled Cloister and Fool's Tome, that'll be hillarious.

Bottled Cloister, Fool's Tome, Ensnaring Bridge, Null Brooch, Goblin Welder, Uba Mask, Voltaic Key, Grim Monolith, Metalworker, couple of other cards, Tomb/City/Furnace/Cavern/Citadel, maybe Noetic Scales and another way to keep the opponent's hand size down, oh I guess a way to win, like Karn...party!

[rufus]

Any potential in this "combo"

turn 1 - Land - Mana Dork
turn 2 - Land - (tap mana dork) Blood Funnel + Donate (sac mana dork)

Opponent can't cast non-creature spells now unless he cast's creature spells first - combine with counters, draw and spot removal?

It could certainly work well in a Donate/Puca's Mischief deck, but it seems that something like Embargo or Thought Lash is liable to work better for that.

I wonder if something could be made to work with Blood Funnel,Carnival of Souls and tall men.

Another fun route to explore might be to use Multani's Presence + Blood Funnel to turn all the cheap artifacts in a deck into cantrips, or to Trickbind the triggered ability.

[Cire]

It could certainly work well in a Donate/Puca's Mischief deck, but it seems that something like Embargo or Thought Lash is liable to work better for that.
.

Well while not an instant win like old trix decks - donating a blood funnel is faster (turn 2/3 rather than turn 3/4). I don't know if that extra turn is worth the . . . not winning right away. But it's not like decks would love having a blood funnel to deal with.

[FTW]

It could certainly work well in a Donate/Puca's Mischief deck, but it seems that something like Embargo or Thought Lash is liable to work better for that.

I wonder if something could be made to work with Blood Funnel,Carnival of Souls and tall men.

Another fun route to explore might be to use Multani's Presence + Blood Funnel to turn all the cheap artifacts in a deck into cantrips, or to Trickbind the triggered ability.

LOLFUNNEL.DEC


//Spells: 23
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
3 Daze
4 Donate

//Permanents: 17
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hiearch
4 Dark Confidant
4 Blood Funnel
2 Puca's Mischief
2 Illusions of Grandeur

//Lands: 20
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Ancient Tomb


Multiple routes to victory.

NOTE that you can do silly things like

T1 Mana Dork
T2 Blood Funnel, fetch Dryad Arbor
T3 Illusions + Donate (sacrificing Arbor and Dork)

T1 fetch, DRS
T2 Ancient Tomb, Illlusions
T3 fetch, Donate

T1 Mana Dork
T2 Blood Funnel + Donate
T3-T6 Brainstorm/Ponder
T7 Dark Confidant

T1 Ponder
T2 Dark Confidant
T3 Daze, Brainstorm, fetch
T4 Ponder
T5 FoW
T6 Ancient Tomb
T7 Thoughtseize
T8 DRS

[rufus]

LOLFUNNEL.DEC
...

2 Illusions of Grandeur



Illusions is pretty risky considering you lose if it gets instant-speed removed. How about Embargo, Colfenor's Plans or Forbidden Crypt instead?

[Cire]

Illusions is pretty risky considering you lose if it gets instant-speed removed. How about Embargo, Colfenor's Plans or Forbidden Crypt instead?

Symbiotic Deployment ?

But now we're in 6 mana 2 card combo territory:frown:

[rufus]

Symbiotic Deployment ?

But now we're in 6 mana 2 card combo territory:frown:

That's still 1 less than Illusions of Grandeur.

[Nation Prophetic]

Omen Machine. One day, someones gonna make a deck that makes that card really sing.

[rufus]

Omen Machine. One day, someones gonna make a deck that makes that card really sing.

The annoying thing is that the best thing to do with it is probably casting Emrakul, the Aeons Torn.

[JPoJohnson]

Omen Machine. One day, someones gonna make a deck that makes that card really sing.

Makes me want to brew in Modern. Unfortunately with Affinity rising once again, you would have to wait for the deck to rotate just right in the meta haha

[maharis]

Strands of Night

Instant speed reanimation/doesn't die to decay? How is this not some sort of value machine?

I don't think you use it quite the same as Recurring Nightmare (which does have a turn advantage) but there has to be some way to unlock this old thing with the power/GY creep that has happened over the 15 years since its printing.

[rufus]

Strands of Night

Instant speed reanimation/doesn't die to decay? How is this not some sort of value machine?

I don't think you use it quite the same as Recurring Nightmare (which does have a turn advantage) but there has to be some way to unlock this old thing with the power/GY creep that has happened over the 15 years since its printing.

It's got the same issue as Dreams of the Dead - you pay 6 mana to get one reanimation when you could reanimate for 1 or 2, or Show and Tell for 3. The additional cost of sacking a swamp means you break even on CA, but TBH, that's quite minor.

And stuff that will cheat Strands into play can usually cheat in something else that will more directly win the game.

[Phelix]

strands could arguably be played in a nicfit type deck, that plays the long game.

[Fatal]

Strands of Night << Recurring Nightmare

[uncletiggy]

In a format that leans so heavily on fetchlands im suprised root maze into tangle wire is not a thing. im currently reworking my helm/leyline brew to incorporate these cards and moving away from its current stompy shell and into a psuedo lands shell. I feel like rootmaze is completely overlooked at 1 mana as a way to slow fast decks down to a crawl and prey on 3 color decks.

[maharis]

In a format that leans so heavily on fetchlands im suprised root maze into tangle wire is not a thing. im currently reworking my helm/leyline brew to incorporate these cards and moving away from its current stompy shell and into a psuedo lands shell. I feel like rootmaze is completely overlooked at 1 mana as a way to slow fast decks down to a crawl and prey on 3 color decks.

Last night in the Vintage Super League I saw someone with a Tsabo's Web in play, if you could ever get Root Maze into that thing that would be insane.

[MGB]

Last night in the Vintage Super League I saw someone with a Tsabo's Web in play, if you could ever get Root Maze into that thing that would be insane.

I saw quite a few Tsabo's Webs at SCG New Jersey on Sunday. Seems to be a popular sideboard card in the East Coast meta.

[uncletiggy]

Agreed the two work well together all three would be insane root maze does the most on its own. However I dont know that playing all three is correct I think rootmaze plus tangle wire have broader applications against more or the field web hits utility lands hard where as the other two restrict mana and permanents.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Agreed the two work well together all three would be insane root maze does the most on its own. However I dont know that playing all three is correct I think rootmaze plus tangle wire have broader applications against more or the field web hits utility lands hard where as the other two restrict mana and permanents.
Maze + Web is sick in the fetchlands format.

[(nameless one)]

Why run two cards to lock Fetchlands out when you can do it with Suppression Field

[uncletiggy]

Color and speed. Suppression field is a good card but by the time you play it they will have mana. Turn one root maze has the potential to be a three turn time walk. By the time they get a dual on the table you should have active wastes or ports to continue the butt hurt. Its not the end all be all but certainly an unused card with latent potential thats not some janky four drop three card combo...

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Color and speed. Suppression field is a good card but by the time you play it they will have mana. Turn one root maze has the potential to be a three turn time walk. By the time they get a dual on the table you should have active wastes or ports to continue the butt hurt. Its not the end all be all but certainly an unused card with latent potential thats not some janky four drop three card combo...

Port is kinda bad under Web. Otoh, why not play both SupField and Maze and Web?

[uncletiggy]

I would not play web in legacy id play maze and tangle wire. My current helm leyline brew is incorporating a 4/2 split in a lands shell I havent tested it at all yet but treasure cruise and dtt made the format more dependent on graveyards then ever before along with reanimator and dredge putting up results and goyf and shamans running amuck its shaping up to be a predator on paper.

[apple713]

zur's weirding

This card has always appealed to me because you can easily gain 2 life a turn to prevent your opponent from ever drawing a card again... ivory tower, batter skull, zuran orb, idk lots of stuff. Maybe when combined with control and hand disruption its simply just a lock piece that cannot be dealt with.

[H]

zur's weirding

This card has always appealed to me because you can easily gain 2 life a turn to prevent your opponent from ever drawing a card again... ivory tower, batter skull, zuran orb, idk lots of stuff. Maybe when combined with control and hand disruption its simply just a lock piece that cannot be dealt with.

I think without a doubt the effect is playable, it is just a question of "is 4 mana too much?"

I tried it in a sideboard of Deathblade, because not only does Deathrite accelerate it out, but also gains you life to deny them draws. Paired with the life gain from Batterskull, Jitte, maybe a Sword if you run one, I think it could have legs. Of course, I never drew it, so I have no idea if that idea would actually work or not.

[apple713]

I think without a doubt the effect is playable, it is just a question of "is 4 mana too much?"

I tried it in a sideboard of Deathblade, because not only does Deathrite accelerate it out, but also gains you life to deny them draws. Paired with the life gain from Batterskull, Jitte, maybe a Sword if you run one, I think it could have legs. Of course, I never drew it, so I have no idea if that idea would actually work or not.

i feel like it has to be built around. A shell similar to bug would be acceptable however it would have to be more focused. Im not sure adding 1-2 in from the board would be as effective as running more. The other thing to consider if playing it in bug is, does it actually improve the matches in bug? I guess theoretically where ever you have board advantage you essentially keep it and win. The issue with relying on a equipment is that if you have a resolved equipment and a creature you rarely loose those games so I'm not sure zur's helps there.

It defiantly combo's well with DRS and I'm sure there has got to be a way to increase the consistency of getting it out. Lilliana seems like a no brainer to empty hand and maintain some board control.

[TsumiBand]

I agree that Zur's Weirding is an intriguing effect, but it's symmetrical, so the opponent could theoretically lock you out as well. A fast aggro deck would probably enjoy hitting you right back so long as it meant you weren't able to get a handle on tempo. So basically you have to be way way ahead to land it the way you want to, which means it's a win-more card.

[frafen]

I agree that Zur's Weirding is an intriguing effect, but it's symmetrical, so the opponent could theoretically lock you out as well. A fast aggro deck would probably enjoy hitting you right back so long as it meant you weren't able to get a handle on tempo. So basically you have to be way way ahead to land it the way you want to, which means it's a win-more card. I play Zur's Weirding in the sideboard of my UB control brew and in my opinion it's not a win more card.

Against some combo decks is almost a hard lock, and is also pretty good against many decks if you can get a bit ahead on board (I mean a manland or a 1/x is enough) and you have ways to control your opponent's hand before casting weirding.

There are also ways to broke the symmetry, for example Dig Through Time or the more obscure Tainted Pact (my UB control brew is based around this card, a pretty good cantrip/tutor in a deck where almost every card is in 1x).

[apple713]

I agree that Zur's Weirding is an intriguing effect, but it's symmetrical, so the opponent could theoretically lock you out as well. A fast aggro deck would probably enjoy hitting you right back so long as it meant you weren't able to get a handle on tempo. So basically you have to be way way ahead to land it the way you want to, which means it's a win-more card.

Not necessarily. as frafen pointed out its almost a complete lock piece against combo and when used in conjunction with something like ensnaring bridge, will completely lock out opponents from attacking because they will never draw an out.


I play Zur's Weirding in the sideboard of my UB control brew and in my opinion it's not a win more card.

Against some combo decks is almost a hard lock, and is also pretty good against many decks if you can get a bit ahead on board (I mean a manland or a 1/x is enough) and you have ways to control your opponent's hand before casting weirding.

There are also ways to broke the symmetry, for example Dig Through Time or the more obscure Tainted Pact (my UB control brew is based around this card, a pretty good cantrip/tutor in a deck where almost every card is in 1x).

The other way to abuse fur's weirding is to be in control of a second replacement effect that would allow you to choose which one you apply to drawing your card. words of war is a good example. even if the second effect replaces opponents draw since you control both of the replacement effects you control which one is applied. and obviously you would choose zur's for opponent.

[Di]

Not necessarily. as frafen pointed out its almost a complete lock piece against combo and when used in conjunction with something like ensnaring bridge, will completely lock out opponents from attacking because they will never draw an out.



The other way to abuse fur's weirding is to be in control of a second replacement effect that would allow you to choose which one you apply to drawing your card. sylvan library is a good example. even if the second effect replaces opponents draw since you control both of the replacement effects you control which one is applied. and obviously you would choose zur's for opponent.


Just as an fyi, this type of interaction is nothing new. Words of Worship/Zur's Weirding was a deck since roughly 2004 that locked the opponent out of the game completely. Used Replenish too to recycle cards that were discarded. I imagine there's something within Google searches that can expand on this.

[TsumiBand]

Well sure, but in all those examples you'll have to already have the cards in hand; you're basically talking about a two-card combo against a dedicated combo deck, right? You can't play Zur's Weirding and then try and draw into Dig Through Time, for example, because there will be times when the opponent doesn't allow it; or times when the opponent is already ahead on life and so you can't really play Weirding. There will be times when it's a bad effect for you, and I don't just mean like the hypothetical "oh this maindeck Pacifism sucks against Burn" I mean times when your opponent gets more value out of it than you.

I mean I get what's being said and the draw replacement effect is a clever way to try and get around the problem, but then you're talking about a deck that's built around the card. And that deck still has to be a lot more careful about the order in which it plays its spells than a lot of durdly decks out there. It feels like it's a metagame deck, maybe, if it's a deck at all and not just clever sideboard tech.

[H]

Well, for using it out of a sideboard in a Blade deck, the idea was to shut the door on Miracles. A board of TNN and a Deathrite is just waiting for Miracles to come and Terminus them back to the stone age. The same board with a Weirding is almost certainly game over. I figured it might also be useful versus a combo deck for the same reason.

[tescrin]

Zur's stacks nicely with both Bob and SotL. SFM for lifegain and BOOM Esper Control to da maxxx

[apple713]

im leaning toward black blue control. Black for hand disruption / life gain and blue obviously for board control. Black also has lots of cards that operate from the graveyard like grave crawler / hakkon / nameless inversion.

[Memories of the Time]

I'm playing Zur Weirding in my Most deck (like the past 2 years) and it's spectacular against combo and Miracle (gg, no way out... only PiF, but your opponent has to be very lucky). If you want a deck around it i'm testing this one:
2 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
1 Intuition
1 Academy Ruins
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Treasure Cruise
3 Lonely Sandbar
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Exploration
4 Brainstorm
3 Zur's Weirding
3 Force of Will
1 Zuran Orb
1 Gigapede
2 Counterspell
2 Sylvan Library
1 Bayou
1 Worm Harvest
4 Burning Wish

SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Villainous Wealth
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Thoughtseize

[Finn]

So the way you pound combo so hard is to pray that you draw one of your three Forces or that you get two of your blue mana producers and one of your 2 Counterspells in hand before the combo opponent rips it out of your hand or goes off in your face? Or do you only face combo decks that allow you six turns to set up first?

[Memories of the Time]

So the way you pound combo so hard is to pray that you draw one of your three Forces or that you get two of your blue mana producers and one of your 2 Counterspells in hand before the combo opponent rips it out of your hand or goes off in your face? Or do you only face combo decks that allow you six turns to set up first?
?
This is a loam version, so the g1 against combo is obv ugly. If you could play Exploration you can do Zur by 2-3 turn, burning wish to Slaughter games and so on...
I've never said that this version is well set against g1 combo ^^

[FoolofaTook]

If you've gotten to the point that you can resolve Zur's Weirding isn't Jace, the Mind Sculptor going to be 10x better whenever you get to that point?

I love the card and I've played with it in lots of non-competitive lists trying to be competitive however it's a 4cc spell that has so many preconditions to being able to play it that it can't be good in a competitive engine. As a random 1-of it has value against a lot of lists but again you have to not only get to the point where you can resolve it but you also have to then *want to* based on the board state, cards in hand vs opponent, etc.

[Finn]

I'm playing Zur Weirding in my Most deck (like the past 2 years) and it's spectacular against combo and Miracle (gg, no way out... only PiF, but your opponent has to be very lucky). If you want a deck around it i'm testing this one:Thinking about this though...What's a "Most" deck?

[Memories of the Time]

Only topdeck for pif though, and only with enough mana. Never happened to me.
Most is an Italian deck deriving from soft. Like Bant maverick with hatebears and so on (there is a topic in development)

[MGB]

The problem with Zur's Weirding is that it does nothing to affect the board state or cards in hand, and is thus -1 card disadvantage every single time.

To make it even remotely useful in a given game, you have to be ahead on the board already. And if you're ahead on the board already and have guys like Dark Confidant in play, then you're probably going to win regardless of Zur's Weirding.

I've tried to play this card in the past and the fact of the matter is that it is simply a bad card.

[Memories of the Time]

Maindeck ok, zur needs board wipe and a deck built around it. But against deck that makes little pressure than you is a gg

[FoolofaTook]

Maindeck ok, zur needs board wipe and a deck built around it. But against deck that makes little pressure than you is a gg

It's true that Zur's Weirding is a great card against most bad lists. PlagueRats.dec being a notable exception.

[TsumiBand]

The problem with Zur's Weirding is that it does nothing to affect the board state or cards in hand, and is thus -1 card disadvantage every single time.

To make it even remotely useful in a given game, you have to be ahead on the board already. And if you're ahead on the board already and have guys like Dark Confidant in play, then you're probably going to win regardless of Zur's Weirding.

I've tried to play this card in the past and the fact of the matter is that it is simply a bad card.

+1

Also, since when was it a winning strategy to draw off of Dark Confidant AND pay life to keep cards out of the opponent's hand? That's a hell of a way to give up a game; you'll be giving the opponent cards because you suddenly can't afford to keep them off their good stuff. Maybe if your curve was low enough but you're already playing Zur's Weirding; are you seriously going to eschew Force and/or JTMS just to make Bob+Weirding be a thing? I'm guessing that way lies madness.

If you're suggesting that something like Batterskull or whatever is going to pull you through, I think the bigger question is why would you risk neutering the advantage that cards like Dark Confidant and Batterskull are giving you, just to play the questionable 4-drop that you have to already be winning to have it be good anyway?

[Memories of the Time]

I've never said anything of these things (bob, stoneforge ecc). I agree entirely, and for this reason i've posted a list that want to do 2 things:
-Wipe board
-Put Zur's---> Win
Nothing special, nothing too broken for sure ^^ but believe me, if with that list you could win only against PlagueRats.deck the problem is your =)

If you haven't lose any game when you have putted Jace in play, so you don't need Zur's ^^

[Begle1]

Here's a card I can't believe isn't worthy of Legacy play:

Paralyze

It used to be a staple but has fallen to the wayside. It deserves a mention along Dismember, Innocent Blood, Deathmark and Ghastly Demise as "ways for black to deal with a creature for 1 mana".



I'm surprised there isn't a deck that uses either some of the "change color word" or "change land word" cards.
Alter Reality
Glamerdye
Sleight of Mind
Spectral Shift
Mind Bend
Magical Hack

Those with things like Choke, Boil, Anarchy, Kor Firewalker, Circles of Protection, Empress Llawan, Deathgrip, et cetera et cetera... Somewhere in there is a rogue deck that could hilariously wreck the right meta.



Dance of the Many is a neat 2-mana clone, I can see some sort of blue enchantment-heavy deck using it against a creature-based deck, or a goofy infinite combo with Opalescence.

[thread viewer]

Why is Earthcraft still banned?

[thread viewer]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/di/131.jpg

No one is discussing this card? Yesterday Greg Hatch used it in a Blue creature deck with Spellstutter, Cursecatcher, Judges's Familiar, Nivmagus Elemental and Martyr of Frost.
I haven't seen it before

How about all this + patron wizard?

[FoolofaTook]

Here's a card I can't believe isn't worthy of Legacy play:

Paralyze

It used to be a staple but has fallen to the wayside. It deserves a mention along Dismember, Innocent Blood, Deathmark and Ghastly Demise as "ways for black to deal with a creature for 1 mana".

Paralyze was a staple when Black had no good ways to deal with T1 Juzam Djinn and couldn't get around a Will-o'-the-wisp either.

It also had utility against Meekstone because dying to your own locked down Juzam really sucked.

[Memories of the Time]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ia/248.jpg
Seems nice against UR delver/burn

[Hopo]

I'm surprised there isn't a deck that uses either some of the "change color word" or "change land word" cards.

But here is and it's a very good one. The most competitive color hack is Painter's Servant + Grindstone + red blasts.

[Gheizen64]

Wow that seems some sick tech indeed. It last only 2-3 turns but i guess you could sorta see it as a gain 4-10 life spell. At which point maybe phyrexian unlife is just better?

[rufus]

Wow that seems some sick tech indeed. It last only 2-3 turns but i guess you could sorta see it as a gain 4-10 life spell. At which point maybe phyrexian unlife is just better?

It could be run with cards like Hex Parasite to extend the number of turns,

[MaximumC]

Zur's Weirding is a very good card but it requires some way to break the synergy explosively to make it good for 4 mana. I mean, there are lots of ways to get a lock on your opponent's topdeck with Zur. I think the easiest is having a Golgari Brownscale in the yard. (Dredge, gain 3, spend 2 to lock out your opponent, play out of your yard). Really though, any lifegain will work. The trouble is that Weirding costs too much for what it does. If some card was printed that handled all other aspects of what Zur doesnt, then it could explode; this is one of those cards that will be a 20 dollar card once they print something like this:

Zur's Best Friend
2U Creature
0/4
When this enters the battlefield, each player discards their hand and draws three cards.
During your upkeep, gain 2 life.

Until that day, though, Weirding won't do anything.

I've used Energy Storm in Legacy tournaments before in an Elves list with a white splash. And it is, indeed, sick tech. It is not exactly what you want against something like Delver in the same way that Elephant Grass is not usually what you want. The cumulative upkeep is a pretty gnarly beast. However, it does give you a few turns to stabilize if your deck is making lots of mana.

The reason it worked in Elves was twofold:
(1) I could increase my mana base each turn faster than the upkeep increased; and
(2) It protects your creatures just as well as it does you, which is huge for Elves.

Storm is a totally solid card and probably could see a lot more play.

Along the sames lines: Tropical Storm. This guy has lots of utility against Delver and Merfolk. I used to run one or two of these in Maverick sideboards.

[rufus]

Zur's Weirding is a very good card but it requires some way to break the synergy explosively to make it good for 4 mana. I mean, there are lots of ways to get a lock on your opponent's topdeck with Zur.....

Deathrite Shaman is roughly what a "Zur's best friend" card should look like: It burns potential problem stuff that goes into the graveyard. It provides life gain that can be converted to to card advantage, and it helps accelerate into weirding in the first place. And, even more importantly, DRS is a solid card on its own.

The problem that Weirding really has is that it's a "lose more" card. You can't play it to turn a losing situation into a winning one.

[Scott]

Zirilan of the Claw :cool: Why, yes; I did spend my allowance collecting dragon cards when I was a kid.

[apple713]

Zirilan of the Claw :cool: Why, yes; I did spend my allowance collecting dragon cards when I was a kid.

idk maybe I'm missing something here but he would force you to pack your deck with overcommitted dragons, almost none of which compare to other creatures. not to mention that he himself cost 5. While he does provide a fairly strong engine alone, building around him would lead to a very inefficient and inconsistent deck i feel. maybe you toss him into dragon storm... and he reaches max potential there. at that point you can combine him with sneak attack.

[Scott]

idk maybe I'm missing something here but he would force you to pack your deck with overcommitted dragons, almost none of which compare to other creatures. not to mention that he himself cost 5. While he does provide a fairly strong engine alone, building around him would lead to a very inefficient and inconsistent deck i feel. maybe you toss him into dragon storm... and he reaches max potential there. at that point you can combine him with sneak attack.

My thought was basically, if Moggcatcher has found a home in a decent Legacy deck, surely Zirilan can too.

[bruizar]

idk maybe I'm missing something here but he would force you to pack your deck with overcommitted dragons, almost none of which compare to other creatures. not to mention that he himself cost 5. While he does provide a fairly strong engine alone, building around him would lead to a very inefficient and inconsistent deck i feel. maybe you toss him into dragon storm... and he reaches max potential there. at that point you can combine him with sneak attack.

Perhaps when Sneak Attack gets a dragon more powerful than Emrakul, this can serve as #5-8 for it.

[apple713]

transmute artifact

so im not sure if there has been mention of this on here before but this card is good. in fact, its really good. It sees very little play in very few decks. its more of like something people test out. with the new feldon I'm imagining a red blue deck being amazing. it essentially tutors a card into play or at the very least the graveyard. someone posted a UR list on another forum i think this would go well with.

anyone play with this card have reservations about it or know why its not seeing a lot more play?

[Undomian]

transmute artifact

so im not sure if there has been mention of this on here before but this card is good. in fact, its really good. It sees very little play in very few decks. its more of like something people test out. with the new feldon I'm imagining a red blue deck being amazing. it essentially tutors a card into play or at the very least the graveyard. someone posted a UR list on another forum i think this would go well with.

anyone play with this card have reservations about it or know why its not seeing a lot more play?

It's been fantastic in Tezzeret decks even since the deck was called Bridgewalkers. The main problems with the card are that you have to build around it, that it is inherently a two-for-one, and that it often costs a lot of mana to do anything significant with it.

[Zupponn]

idk maybe I'm missing something here but he would force you to pack your deck with overcommitted dragons, almost none of which compare to other creatures. not to mention that he himself cost 5. While he does provide a fairly strong engine alone, building around him would lead to a very inefficient and inconsistent deck i feel. maybe you toss him into dragon storm... and he reaches max potential there. at that point you can combine him with sneak attack.
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=6149&iddeck=44578

[bruizar]

It's been fantastic in Tezzeret decks even since the deck was called Bridgewalkers. The main problems with the card are that you have to build around it, that it is inherently a two-for-one, and that it often costs a lot of mana to do anything significant with it.

I really like the idea of using Transmute Artifact in an affinity deck that uses Metamorphic / Porcelain Legionnaire (or another creature with phyrexian mana), Frogmite and Myr Enforcer. Transmuting Myr Enforcer for something like Spine of Ish Sah, Triskelavus, Myr Battlesphere sounds pretty powerful, especially when you can power out affinity creatures so fast.

[rufus]

I always thought that Transmute Artifact->Lotus Bloom would be a decent thing to be able to do in storm decks or... maybe it's better with Second Sunrise / Fath's Reward stuff or in affinity.

[iamajellydonut]

I always thought that Transmute Artifact->Lotus Bloom would be a decent thing to be able to do in storm decks or...

So, a Lotus Petal?

[Lurker101]

I can't remember if I've brought these up before but Sindbad and Fa'adiyah Seer both work really well with SDT, Sylvan Library, and Counterbalance. They can clear the chaff off the top of your deck easily and dig really fast. There are situations even without having those other cards that these can be quite good.

[ahg113]

So, a Lotus Petal?

Often think you come across as a dick, and it's off putting.

However, this is just really funny. Thanks for making my Friday a bit better toward the end of the work day.

[LLCoolDave]

So, a Lotus Petal?

It's actually even worse, as it's a Lotus Petal that requires UU to get started, the color that storm decks generally are the most restricted on. The most reliable way a storm deck could likely cast transmute artifact for lotus bloom would, ironically, be having a lotus bloom in play to begin with.

[phonics]

I always thought it would be good with artifact combos like painter grindstone, thopter sword or even something like leyline helm like that tezz deck that top8'd the eternal weekend.

[Darkenslight]

So, how about that Twinflame?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I can't remember if I've brought these up before but Sindbad and Fa'adiyah Seer both work really well with SDT, Sylvan Library, and Counterbalance. They can clear the chaff off the top of your deck easily and dig really fast.
They are 1/1s. Otoh, a cmc2 Jayemdae Tome that simply needs to tap to draw... umm, me likes. Definitely strong casual cards at least. Sindbad also may be good in 93/94.



There are situations even without having those other cards that these can be quite good.
Transparent sleeves and Mirage-only basic lands. :tongue:

[thefreakaccident]

Spellstutter sprite


Yes, there are delve spells but sprite used to be pretty damn good, even though nobody played it.

[Gheizen64]

I can't remember if I've brought these up before but Sindbad and Fa'adiyah Seer both work really well with SDT, Sylvan Library, and Counterbalance. They can clear the chaff off the top of your deck easily and dig really fast. There are situations even without having those other cards that these can be quite good.

Courser of Kruphix is a better card than those two tbh. Yeah 1 more mana but a relevant body + some lifegain.

[bruizar]

Courser of Kruphix is a better card than those two tbh. Yeah 1 more mana but a relevant body + some lifegain.

Also immediately useful, and it gives information for your fetchlands.

[bruizar]

Spellstutter sprite


Yes, there are delve spells but sprite used to be pretty damn good, even though nobody played it.

Spellstutter Sprite is the only hard counter specifically for 1-cc besides our banned friend, Mental Misstep. Unfortunately, it's not a 1 mana card, but it's still solid since Spell Snare is hardly played and Spell Pierce can't do much about this. It even gets progressively better, and it's an evasive body that can carry equipment.

[Lurker101]

Courser of Kruphix is a better card than those two tbh. Yeah 1 more mana but a relevant body + some lifegain.
Forgot about Courser. Yeah then those other two are pretty outclassed by him.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Zirilan of the Claw :cool: Why, yes; I did spend my allowance collecting dragon cards when I was a kid.

A buddy of mine has monored dragon EDH with this dude commanding them...

[Zupponn]

I have one too. I think I posted it in the EDH forum here a while back.

[bruizar]

Academy Researchers & Eldrazi Conscription

Inferior to SNT, but modern legal

[Zupponn]

Academy Researchers & Eldrazi Conscription

Inferior to SNT, but modern legal

Definitely seems good. I don't know why it doesn't see much play in Modern.

[apple713]

leyline of singularity seems like it might have promise...


karakas
arena of the ancients
empress galina
Honor-Worn Shaku
Tsabo Tavoc
Yomiji, Who Bars the Way
Willow Satyr

[ESG]

leyline of singularity seems like it might have promise...


karakas
arena of the ancients
empress galina
Honor-Worn Shaku
Tsabo Tavoc
Yomiji, Who Bars the Way
Willow Satyr


In what, EDH? None of those cards are Legacy playable except for Karakas. Arena of the Ancients saw fringe play years ago to answer Progenitus. Maybe something could be printed in the future to make Leyline of Singularity viable, but I don't see it now.

[Rad_Fishy]

I've always wanted to find homes for the following cards but no luck so far.

Riptide Chimera
-Sacromancy
-Second Chance

Mesmeric Orb
-Basalt Monolith
-Dig Through Time/Treasure Cruise

Unearth
-Snapcaster Mage
-Loyal Retainers

Temporal Mastery
-Sage of Epityr
-Personal Tutor
-SDT
-Scroll Rack

Porcelain Legionnaire
-Ancient Tomb
-City of Traitors

Mask of Memory

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Leyline of Singularity was a Leyline no.5 against Ichorid.
It was also "played" in that experimental format where you got only three cards and cannot lose due to not having a card to draw. The deck was:
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Karakas
Leyline of Singularity

:cool:

[apple713]

Demigod of Revenge this card i feel like has so much potential. intuition eot -> cast, swing for 15...






I've always wanted to find homes for the following cards but no luck so far.

cards....

legionare is just a creature and no special abilities so its not really abusable...

temporal mastery is nice but extra turns are only good if you have threats on the board, or can generate multiple extra turns. if you do not have board position then you are simply drawing a card and playing a land which is of little benefit.

snap and retainers are both great but you are basically playing a less efficient version of reanimator. what benefit would justify the slower clunkyness of the deck? can it provide more protection than reanimator already has?

bassalt monolith / mesmeric orb is called 4 horsemen, theres already a deck for it.

[Wilkin]

Demigod of Revenge this card i feel like has so much potential. intuition eot -> cast, swing for 15...







legionare is just a creature and no special abilities so its not really abusable...

temporal mastery is nice but extra turns are only good if you have threats on the board, or can generate multiple extra turns. if you do not have board position then you are simply drawing a card and playing a land which is of little benefit.

snap and retainers are both great but you are basically playing a less efficient version of reanimator. what benefit would justify the slower clunkyness of the deck? can it provide more protection than reanimator already has?

bassalt monolith / mesmeric orb is called 4 horsemen, theres already a deck for it.

And the neat thing with Demigod is, the ability is a trigger upon casting it so even if they were to counter the Demigod, you still get the guys.

Genesis Hydra is a card that is obviously niche but I feel it could see a home in either a Food Chain or Nic Fit deck. I like the fact the ability is triggered upon casting it, so even countering the hydra doesn't stop the ability from happening.

[FoolofaTook]

Demigod of Revenge this card i feel like has so much potential. intuition eot -> cast, swing for 15...

Demigod of Revenge is one of those cards where if Force of Will didn't exist it might see some play. Intuition is good but so is just ritualing it out T1 and hitting them for 10 damage unless they have a Swords to Plowshares in hand. Now if you have to be on the lookout for StP and FoW and Daze on the draw in a format where both cards are frequently played at the top tables, well you'll never make a list that includes the possibility of ritualing out a big creature turn 1.

There are lots of ways to get rid of big creatures cheaply in Legacy but probably only half the lists actually play them. That half neatly fits with the lists that plays the blue shell to make the format 90% hostile to fast mana for big creatures.

To the people who say combo would just be a better option, well maybe that's true but combo also tends to die to it's own draws more often than any other archetype. It only takes a few really bad draws in a long tourney to put you out of the running and combo lists are looking for 5 or 6 pieces in their opening grip to go off on. If they wind up with 3 or 4 due to redundancies in the list, well that's as bad as a non-combo hand looking at only 2 real pieces at the opening.

[PirateKing]

It was also "played" in that experimental format where you got only three cards and cannot lose due to not having a card to draw. The deck was:
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Karakas
Leyline of Singularity

:cool:

Nether Spirit
Ebon Stronghold
Smallpox

Fun format

[iamajellydonut]

It was also "played" in that experimental format where you got only three cards and cannot lose due to not having a card to draw.

Speaking of which, I would not mind having a 3CM here.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Nether Spirit
Ebon Stronghold
Smallpox

Fun format

Wasteland
Urza's Factory
Calciform Pools

Thanks for playing.

[iamajellydonut]

Wasteland
Urza's Factory
Calciform Pools

Thanks for playing.

3CM so good...

The better version of King's deck is Liliana and Lotus instead of Smallpox.

[maharis]

3CM so good...

The better version of King's deck is Liliana and Lotus instead of Smallpox.

Lotus, Liliana, Dryad Arbor?

I like Gemstone Caverns, Misthollow Griffin, Lotus but it's bad.

[Will_L]

Barren Glory
Black Lotus
Black Lotus

was my 3 card "deck" back in the day

[rufus]

No love for Chancellor of the Annex/Wasteland/Fountain of Cho?

[Zombiesquisher]

Can someone link me the rules to this format?

[iamajellydonut]

Can someone link me the rules to this format?

Older thread and banned list, but the rules and the spreadsheet are the same.

http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3108751

[rufus]

Can someone link me the rules to this format?

There aren't official rules as far as I know.
http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/3-Card_Blind

[TsumiBand]

The only other place I've seen 3CB mentioned was The Mana Drain, and one of the longstanding rules there was that whatever cards won the last tournament, were banned in the following X tournaments. In this way no one dominates with a single "best list" and so new 'decks' are constantly emerging. I don't know if that is a common practice or not.

[Will_L]

Just looked at the rules

I guess my deck is banned...

It's funny what cards are busted in 3CB... Coercion OP.

[Hopo]

Still looking for a a non-awkward way to use Root Maze.

[TsumiBand]

Forgot about this non-gem from Odyssey: Pedantic Learning

At the time it was printed, it was balls-tastic. In fact the guy who was teaching me to play Magic at the time insisted it was one of the worst cards he'd ever seen. It might still be? It does nothing, absolutely nothing by itself though. Which is usually the mark of unplayable crap.

However we have things like Dredge, self-milling creatures like those weird Blue Zombies from Innistrad, Sidisi, Commune with the Gods, and other random junk specifically designed to toss your library in the trash while maybe even putting a card or two you care about into your hand.

[FoolofaTook]

Still looking for a a non-awkward way to use Root Maze.

Some type of Stax Control or finding a way to revive Stasis is probably the best bet. Both of those are iffy in competitive Magic due to time constraints so maybe Root Maze just doesn't have a home on that basis.

A list that made really good use of 4 Elvish Spirit Guides somehow is another option. Don't think I've seen one of those in a long time.

If you could find a green list with a little blue splash Root Maze and Back to Basics would make half the format cry at this point.

[rufus]

Forgot about this non-gem from Odyssey: Pedantic Learning
...

It's explosive in combination with Life from the Loam and Mind over Matter, but that's not really saying much, is it? It's cute in combination with stuff like Wood Sage,Taigam's Scheming,Commune with the Gods and Grisly Salvage but I'd expect it to be much too slow to be of any practical use. Maybe in some sort of UG or UGB EDH deck.

[TsumiBand]

It's explosive in combination with Life from the Loam and Mind over Matter, but that's not really saying much, is it? It's cute in combination with stuff like Wood Sage,Taigam's Scheming,Commune with the Gods and Grisly Salvage but I'd expect it to be much too slow to be of any practical use. Maybe in some sort of UG or UGB EDH deck.

Does that work with reveal cards? I guess the actual reveal isn't a zone change, right - just not sure if that counts as still "in the library" until they go to the graveyard (or don't).

[Valtrix]

Revealed things are still in the library. Look at things like Courser of Kruphix for example to see why it makes sense. Reveal just means to show all players. It has nothing to do with zone changes.

[TsumiBand]

Revealed things are still in the library. Look at things like Courser of Kruphix for example to see why it makes sense. Reveal just means to show all players. It has nothing to do with zone changes.

Yeah, that follows. I guess for whatever reason the idea of revealing a group of cards and splaying them out made me ponder whether the game recognized it as going directly from library to graveyard, but that's silly.

[ahg113]

Yeah, that follows. I guess for whatever reason the idea of revealing a group of cards and splaying them out made me ponder whether the game recognized it as going directly from library to graveyard, but that's silly.

The more cards that are added to the list to gain value from Pedantic Learning the worst it gets. If there is a green/blue Loam deck, this makes a lot of sense as a slight bump in card advantage. Relying on Courser seems fantasy land'ish. Better off with Mirri's Guile or SDT, as they come down way faster and give more insight than just the top card on when to "mill".

Some effects like Altar of Dementia, or Codex Shredder, seem necessary to have a reliable means of putting cards in the yard. Gaea's Blessing also seems to warrant a spot in order to recycle the deck, unless it's dredge.

40 cards in stock at $.49 a pop @ SCG. If you break it, could be profitable./sarcasm

[TsumiBand]

The more cards that are added to the list to gain value from Pedantic Learning the worst it gets.

I was about to post some ill-advised jank appeal for Hermit Druid, before remembering that Hermit Druid goes broken without shitty cards. Oh wells.

[MaximumC]

Don't get too down on Pedantic Learning. It's actually pretty boss with Dredge in EDH decks like the Mimeoplasm.

[yugular]

Sorry this might be a wrong thread, but I didn't feel like creating a new for this question.

I played against Illusions of Grandeur / Donate combo deck in mtgo. Is that some sort of old combo deck? I didn't get to see him go off but I saw both of the cards in his hand with gitprobe. I would be very grateful if someone could point me into a decklist or a thread that discusses that idea.

[TsumiBand]

Sorry this might be a wrong thread, but I didn't feel like creating a new for this question.

I played against Illusions of Grandeur / Donate combo deck in mtgo. Is that some sort of old combo deck? I didn't get to see him go off but I saw both of the cards in his hand with gitprobe. I would be very grateful if someone could point me into a decklist or a thread that discusses that idea.

This was an old kill condition in a deck called Trix (or at least, Trix was the deck that I saw it played in the most). It would play Necropotence, Illusions of Grandeur, Donate, and most of the variants I saw had ways of dealing with their own Illusions if the other player was somehow able to stall around it - Capsize for example.

IIRC the deck also played Masticore as an alt-win in the rare event that someone rolled up on you with creatures - decks like Sligh and Fish had some very small dudes back in those days so they were easily shot down by a Masticore.

So yeah, unless someone has a better recollection than me and Illusions/Donate was in other decks more prominently, my advice is to look up old Trix decklists.

[FoolofaTook]

Sorry this might be a wrong thread, but I didn't feel like creating a new for this question.

I played against Illusions of Grandeur / Donate combo deck in mtgo. Is that some sort of old combo deck? I didn't get to see him go off but I saw both of the cards in his hand with gitprobe. I would be very grateful if someone could point me into a decklist or a thread that discusses that idea.

It's a very old concept that was used circa 2000 very successfully.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/extended/661_Ten_Extended_Decks_to_Beat_Part_2_Trix_And_Stasis.html

Trix in all it's glory with an SCG article describing the fun.

edit: you'd have to do some more research on "Trix" to get the first lists, which were faster. Dark Ritual was in the list for sure and I think it had both Mystical and Vampiric Tutors.

[yugular]

Thanks for the replies! I might be interested just to do this kind of a deck just for laughs and make an article or video about it. Any additional resources would be helpful. Thanks so far!

[MaximumC]

Ah, Trix. Along with Prosperous Bloom, those were some of the first combo decks in the true sense of the word. While it's too expensive for play today, the nice thing about Trix is that the key piece is an enchantment. That makes them very resilient to most forms of removal, which focus on creatures and artifacts. Sadly, it also involves a pretty worthless pair of cards, so there's that.

[yugular]

I already built a "modern" version of the deck and played it in mtgo. It was fun. Next thing Im gonna try wishboard for it... :cool: