[Deck] Dredge

[Oestrus]

Hello everyone, just came off a League 5-0 with an interesting list I was toying with. It takes inspiration from the Japanese lists featuring Probe over Breakthrough; seems heinous, but I've really appreciated Probe boosting up percentages against combo by making Therapies so precise - I've kept some interesting hands featuring things like Probe/Therapy/Narcomoeba, just because I can shred apart my opponent's hand. It also, of course, helps with accelerating Dredges, but not as much as Breakthrough.

Not saying this is particularly better and I certainly ran well, fighting five non-blue decks.

Lands: (12)
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine

Dredgers: (12)
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

Discard: (13)
1 Putrid Imp
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study

Disruption: (8)
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy

Free Creatures: (13)
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Prized Amalgam
4 Bridge from Below

DR Package: (2)
1 Dread Return
1 Dragonlord Kolaghan

Sideboard: (15)
3 Firestorm
3 Wear/Tear
4 Lotus Petal
1 Ashen Rider
1 Dread Return
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

Quick summaries:

Burn (2-0)
- g1 keep a zero lander with a Probe, Guide feeds me one and then we stall the board until we lethal him with the crew.
- g2 I have 2x LED and no land, ready to slow Dredge. Draw Looting and I'm off to the races. My opponent Faeries wrong and then I can Dread Return a big Grave-Troll, which stalls the board until I win.

Nic Fit (2-1)
- g1 Don't crack LED in response to my Probe because I'm dumb. End up slow Dredging off a LED, eventually hit enough gas to get there and massacre his hand.
- g2 Have on the draw LED + Coliseum. End up thinking I don't have enough cards for Thresh after a Thoughtseize and miss an extra Dredging off a Looting as a result. I'm dumb. End up whiffing on creatures a fair bit and then get Scoozed.
- g3 Kept Probe/Therapy/Narco with no Dredger. Ballsy. End up shredding his weak hand with a Bridge in yard too, beating him down with a single Zombie while I flood and my opponent does not much.

Big Eldrazi (2-1)
- It's Joe Lossett!
- g1 I Probe + Therapy away his Dynamos, TKS and then blind hit an Ulamog. Nice.
- g2 I get Leylined and can't find Wear // Tear.
- g3 he mulls into oblivion.

Maverick (2-1)
- g1 Mull into zero lander, hoping to hit land and start on Pimp. Don't and die. DDD is too slow.
- g2 Have a crazy one with Study, Therapy, Petal and LED. Start first turn with a blind Therapy, and then next turn get the ball rolling and kill him.
- And then game three, make a turn one Elesh Norn with LED + Looting. Well.

4c Loam (2-1)
- g1 He has nothing relevant and we Dragonlord him.
- g2 we could've beaten the turn two Scooze. We'd mulled to five and had to dig with Loot spells for a Dredger. At one stage I end up pitching a Petal in hand, but if I didn't, I would've had exactly Threshold to crack Coliseum and go nuts while my opponent was tapped out from Scooze, as my second Looting spell cast after Scooze hit play found Thug and Stinky. Very good lesson learnt.
- g3 My opponent has no Leyline, I have study into pitching my Dredgers. He has turn one Scooze. I break Coliseum and ruin his life. Ashen Rider eats Scooze and we 5-0.

Most of these matchups I just sideboarded for speed (add LEDs, trim some Ickies, Amalgam, Pimp etc.), but I often trimmed Probes post-board when I needed to add Wear // Tear or Firestorm (especially since these were often Chalice/Thalia MUs). Interested to hear people's opinions of the sideboarding, I'm definitely still very much a student of the deck and have lots and lots to learn.

Thanks!

Well done! I'm glad to see you added two more lands, and removed the Petals from the main - unlike the original list. That was something I really struggled with when I tried to play this.

[mistercakes]

Nice to go 5-0, but based on your report it doesn't seem like probe is much better than breakthrough from your matchups. It does make sense to cut petals if you aren't casting breakthrough though.

[ChemicalBurns]

Nice to go 5-0, but based on your report it doesn't seem like probe is much better than breakthrough from your matchups. It does make sense to cut petals if you aren't casting breakthrough though.

Well, the on-point Therapies were helpful at stripping away hate bears and things like that, but I do agree that the results of this League aren't conclusive. The Probes certainly weren't bad though. They lend a kind of consistency (b/c of its combo with Therapy) compared to Breakthrough. Breakthrough can feel high-variance at times, especially against Blue decks.

[mistercakes]

That's fair, in my experience breakthrough is best with lotus petal so that it can be a second draw spell during a turn. (preferably on turn 1), but I like to play led a bit more all in where they more or less need a fow. Even then they are in rough shape at times.

[Ronald Deuce]

What has been the consensus on Prized Amalgam without forces in the side? In other words, how have peoples experiences been with amalgam in general? I run four ichorids at the moment with four breakthrough ( no side-board force ). I have been considering swapping out an ichorid and breakthrough for two amalgam, i have yet to test this configuration and would like to hear others experiences with the card.

I'm a bit late to the party on this one and I haven't played Dredge in a while, but I like the Amalgams, with or without Force. It's usually one of my first cuts for Dread Return and targets, but if we're aiming to build a board rather than just Dread Return something, it's great. There was some discussion earlier in the thread about the proper number, and I think two is probably what we want. Three Amalgams starts to get clunky; with two, they're often Ichorid food, and on three, I usually just never had a way to bring them back.

I'm no expert, and my (unfavorable) views on Street Wraith and PImp probably go against the grain, but I don't think I'd ever cut the fourth Ichorid from my mainboard. I'd rather have redundant opportunities for fast attacks and sac triggers than a discard outlet or a cycler that doesn't do anything but get exiled unless it's in our hand.

With that said, I'd been thinking to try a PImp or two again the next time I decide to Dredge it up. I'd probably switch out Amalgam and/or Thug for it, but maybe the fourth Icky is the best call.

[SHABOOGS]

With the recent death of Miracles, do you guys have any plans of changing your current sideboard configuration? In my case, I took out the Abrupt Decays and went back to Nature's Claim.

[Parcher]

With the recent death of Miracles, do you guys have any plans of changing your current sideboard configuration? In my case, I took out the Abrupt Decays and went back to Nature's Claim.

Sideboards should directly reflect the expected meta. So any plans now will be fruitless. I mean, I haven't run Decay in over a year. When 2/3 of the format runs Surgical, why would you? But I believe that will change.

Miracles is gone. Which means that immediately BUG Delver is a top 3 deck. No one has seen it run with 3-4 Push, and 1-2 Decay main for obvious reasons. But it's coming. And all these midrange turds that everyone is all excited to run now can look forward to T1 Deathrite, T2 Hymn, Push your Deathrite. Consequently, B/R Reanimator has lost one of it's better matchups, and one of it's worst will double in penetration. BUG will still run Surgical. It has to for Lands. Which with Miracles gone, and the predicted fallout(much more Elfs and AnT) will likely return. And with all of BUG's other disruption, it doesn't need to hedge more towards Dredge. But with the drop off of B/R, most non-Blue decks I predict will abandon their plans of hedging in Surgicals and Macabres, and go back to their more standard permanent-based hate. Which means removal is a consideration again. It just depends on how many Blue-based decks can afford to run real hate, whether or not Decay is needed over more efficient means of anti-hate.

[slave]

Miracles is gone. Which means that immediately BUG Delver is a top 3 deck.
Top had to go due to Terminus, it's nice that WotC realized. I feel it might be temporary, but who knows?
BUG is going to be a problem, but I feel with Terminus gone a whole lot of aggro/mid-range decks might emerge out in public again.
I haven't felt this positive about a new change for a VERY long time.

[jimmythegreek]

I despise the Bug delver matchup, as its one that seems quite difficult for me. Cabal therapy gets met with brainstorm and their counter magic always hits a relevant spell of mine, all the while getting beat down by that piece of shit gnat.
Bug has plenty of creature removal for our bridges which adds to the frustration. Considering we may be (will be) seeing this deck more often I would like to hear others strategies for beating bug delver. Personally I think 13 land is a minimum to avoid getting wasted out of the game. Is it time to bring back firestorm as a way to destroy (as well as overwhelm) DRS? Due to their plethora of counter magic (and a good player won't take it out) regardless of on the play or draw a turn one therapy targeting them seems reasonable in understanding what to play around.

[LVA]

I despise the Bug delver matchup, as its one that seems quite difficult for me. Cabal therapy gets met with brainstorm and their counter magic always hits a relevant spell of mine, all the while getting beat down by that piece of shit gnat.
Bug has plenty of creature removal for our bridges which adds to the frustration. Considering we may be (will be) seeing this deck more often I would like to hear others strategies for beating bug delver. Personally I think 13 land is a minimum to avoid getting wasted out of the game. Is it time to bring back firestorm as a way to destroy (as well as overwhelm) DRS? Due to their plethora of counter magic (and a good player won't take it out) regardless of on the play or draw a turn one therapy targeting them seems reasonable in understanding what to play around.

Usually they only have surgicals for graveyard hate, so it's pretty easy to overwhelm them with an expolosive hand. In game 1 just try to get in a situation where you have an explosive turn, either a diamond into faithless looting, or just an imp on 1 followed by a couple draw spells. Mulliganing aggresively is key to make sure their deathrite is meaningless. Once you get a lot of cards in the yard, therapy prioritizing abrupt decay. You don't need a dread return to win so just try to build up an army of zombies by taking their removal so they can't kill bridges. Sometimes they have everything, but that's magic.

As for the sideboard games, I've run firestorm since I picked up the deck in 2012, has it fallen out of favor? I run 3-4 in the board, bringing it in against any deathrite deck and elves. Sometimes BUG players will keep a hand with force and deathrite and no other hate, so if you are able to therapy for force, or bait it with imp/LED you should be good to resolve it. Having an extra ichorid in the sideboard helps versus any fair deck, if you aren't running the full 4 main. Postboard I like to have a dread return target just in case they surgical bridge from below. I run Griselbrand and dragonlord kolaghan main for the explosive combo kills. BUG delver typically can't beat a 6/5 flying or a Griselbrand in play, so if you resolve a dread return on those you should be fine.

[slave]

I've run firestorm since I picked up the deck in 2012, has it fallen out of favor? I run 3-4 in the board, bringing it in against any deathrite deck and elves. Sometimes BUG players will keep a hand with force and deathrite and no other hate, so if you are able to therapy for force, or bait it with imp/LED you should be good to resolve it.
I've usually run Firestorm in some number, as I expect to face Elves half the times I go play.
Thing is, Firestorm makes sense right now with Top/Terminus no longer out there, as creature based decks like Elves will have some serious game.
Get your Firestorm ready boys and girls....

[PhantomLotus]

Agree. I'm running 1x Firestorm maindeck with another 3x in the sideboard for certain matchups (Elves, for example). The sheer number of DRS around makes the maindeck copy worth it so far, and at its worst it's an instant-speed, uncounterable discard outlet.

[dredge90]

It's been a while since I took this deck for a spin http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=47837 and have lots of questions to those that are having success.

I see fragmentize in boards and wanted to know if it being a sorcery has ever been a problem, where nature claim was the standard.

How's prized a. working. Are we being it in like nether spirit use to come in vs surgical decks?

While always meta dependent, it feels like there's going to be a lot of combo in the near future which might make breakthrough x4 the right call.

I'm not seeing flayer being played much, any reason why?

How'd we come up with a land count. Some list are running 12-13 and that seems a little on the light side to me.

[LVA]

It's been a while since I took this deck for a spin http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=47837 and have lots of questions to those that are having success.

I see fragmentize in boards and wanted to know if it being a sorcery has ever been a problem, where nature claim was the standard.

How's prized a. working. Are we being it in like nether spirit use to come in vs surgical decks?

While always meta dependent, it feels like there's going to be a lot of combo in the near future which might make breakthrough x4 the right call.

I'm not seeing flayer being played much, any reason why?

How'd we come up with a land count. Some list are running 12-13 and that seems a little on the light side to me.

I've run fragmentize and basically noticed no difference with it being a sorcery. I think overall the life gain matters more in sideboard games when playing through hate, since the deck slows down when hate is present and you may be racing. There are trade offs, but I think fragmentize is fine. Personally I've been running natural state. No one in my area runs leyline, so it's just the best option. Overall it feels like most decks only run 1-3 hate cards, which makes other options better. If I played a hypothetical 30 round tournament I would probably lose 1 or 2 games because of that, but since it's so fringe i don't care. Leyline is probably the worst hate card against dredge anyway, since you basically have to mulligan to find it, which makes your hands worse, which just gives the dredge player more time to find a way to deal with it, or leaves the leyline player without a counter for fragmentize/claim.

I've never tested amalgam, but with surgical easily being the most popular graveyard hate out there, I think it's good in theory. It allows us to still build up a board if they hit our bridges, so I think it's probably good enough, though I've never tested it so what do I know.

I don't run flayer because I don't like running a lot of dread returns. I want 2 dread returns max, because the deck is really tight on space, and I feel like you need 3 to really take advantage of it. With top getting banned, the 2 most common ensnaring bridge and moat decks (painter and miracles respectively) got nerfed, so I think winning through combat is still the way to go. I run dragonloard kolaghan still because a lot of decks can't beat a 6/5 flying. Having a card you can just reanimate that can probably go the distance after a surgical on bridge from below postboard is good.

My typical build has 2 breakthrough as a flex slot. When the meta locally is really delver heavy, I run 2 lands instead going up to 14, when it's combo heavy I run the breakthroughs. I feel like against storm, therapy is usually good enough to slow them down, that we don't have to maximize explosive potential. I do like breakthrough against show and tell deck though.

[Que]

It's been a while since I took this deck for a spin http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=47837 and have lots of questions to those that are having success.

I see fragmentize in boards and wanted to know if it being a sorcery has ever been a problem, where nature claim was the standard.

How's prized a. working. Are we being it in like nether spirit use to come in vs surgical decks?

While always meta dependent, it feels like there's going to be a lot of combo in the near future which might make breakthrough x4 the right call.

I'm not seeing flayer being played much, any reason why?

How'd we come up with a land count. Some list are running 12-13 and that seems a little on the light side to me.

- I don't believe the Sorcery speed is really relevant. In my experience they're both just as susceptible to counter magic. ;p Sometimes the life matters more anyway.

- Prized is good. He's a big body that sticks around and keeps bringing the beats alongside any free Ichorids you have crashing in. They make you a little less reliant on Bridge From Below and as you mentioned gives you a diversified threat to combat Surgical to an extent.

- Yeah combo is running rampant right now as there is no agreed upon "control" deck at the moment to keep them down. There is definitely an uptick in B/R Reanimator, Storm, Sneak and Show, Elves, Food Chain, and others. Breakthrough as a 3-4 is fine. I like to keep my 4th in the SB personally as I would rather be a little more consistent game 1, but its a meta call for sure.

- Flayer is pretty decent imo. Its nice because it gets around effects like Ensnaring Bridge which is picking up due to Mono Red Prison. The apprehension is probably that you might want to run 3 Dread Return at that point to "combo" someone in a single turn as the odds with just 2 might be sparse. All I can think of.

- Its usually been either 12-13. And you have LEDs. The deck doesn't really need more than 1 land usually and sometimes no lands in the case of Manaless or sometimes we end up running the game out of the graveyard grinding out Ichorids and churning out zombies as a means to winning.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is my most recent list I've been trying. If someone does leagues on MTGO please lab it or if you have an upcoming tournament maybe you might want to give it a go. ;p

To me it feels smoother and more consistent. This list has no Careful Study, Street Wraith, nor Dread Return main. The sideboard is a blank slate at the moment in conjunction with this new main deck, but its probably something straight forward. Alternatively someone can swap out the 3x Breakthrough and run 3x main deck Careful Study; to me that would be the most consistent, but you lose a lot of raw power that breakthrough provides. The Probes just make a lot more sense to me because we play Cabal Therapy plus its nice to know if your opponent can interact at all that turn and gives you insight into their next line of play. Other times it acts as a free dredge. (But I can also see a list cutting all probes and playing Careful Study in that slot lol) Losing Street Wraith meant that I would be hurting to return Ichorid's consistently due to the lack of black creatures and thus Putrid Imp makes a comeback. There is no argument needed for PImp as it does all the things this deck wants.

But yeah let me know if this feels ok. Otherwise might just go back to the lab or figure something else out.

4x Putrid Imp
4x Narcomoeba
4x Ichorid
2x Prized Amalgam
4x Golgari Grave Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug

4x Bridge from Below
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
3x Breakthrough
4x Faithless Looting
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Gitaxian Probe

4x Mana Confluence
3x Gemstone Mine
2x City of Brass
3x Cephalid Coliseum

SB: Tailor it to your meta

[Beatusnox]

I must be one of the last Hold Outs that plays a combo shell that can still grind as opposed to the grindy quadlaser style.

As for Flayer, I find him to be an amazing combo finisher in addition to also dealing with problem creatures in a grindier matchup.

Creatures: 25
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
2 Putrid Imp
2 Prized Amalgam
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

Sorcery: 16
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return

Artifact: 4
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

Enchantment: 4
4 Bridge from Below

Lands: 12
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum

Sideboard:
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Firestorm
3 Serenity
2 Nature's Claim (looking into fragmentize)
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Ichorid
1 Flex (currently Darkblast)

Flex Slot changes as meta does. Sideboard is a little dated from when miracles/enchantress was popular in my area.

I've been asked about the lack of Ashen Rider a few times, he fits into the Flex slot when needed.

Sent from my ASUS_Z00TD using Tapatalk

[Silent Requiem]

I've been out of MtG for years, and I sold most of my cards. Now that I'm getting back into the game, I'm looking for a competitive, combo(ish) deck that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

I've always thought Dredge was a cool deck, and even sleeved it up a few times way back when. That was with LED, though, so I don't know how competitve the non-LED versions actually are. For general tournament play, are classic (non-LED) and manaless versions still viable? And is either one of those particularly stronger than the other?

[Beatusnox]

LEDless Dredge is viable, but slower, and weaker. My advice is to add Lotus Petal if you can't find LED. It is NOT a 1 for 1 replacement, but it is an accelerant.

Sent from my ASUS_Z00TD using Tapatalk

[LVA]

I've been out of MtG for years, and I sold most of my cards. Now that I'm getting back into the game, I'm looking for a competitive, combo(ish) deck that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

I've always thought Dredge was a cool deck, and even sleeved it up a few times way back when. That was with LED, though, so I don't know how competitve the non-LED versions actually are. For general tournament play, are classic (non-LED) and manaless versions still viable? And is either one of those particularly stronger than the other?

I've loaned out my LEDs a couple times for locals and just ran a 4 tireless tribe and 4 putrid imp build, basically one of the classic shells from before faithless looting. I like it better against fair decks without deathrite shaman. It's a lot slower but more resilient to counterspells, and it mulligans a lot less. It's not ideal because it can be too slow against deathrite sometimes, but it will get you playing the format until you can save up for diamonds.

[mistercakes]

manaless is still quite good and you'll see it come up in the 5-0 lists from mtgo. you still are vulnerable to leyline of the void, but the deck is one of the most consistent decks (barring all the hate) in legacy.

[Que]

If I was going to run a "combo all in" version then this would be it:

4x Putrid Imp
4x Narcomoeba
4x Ichorid
4x Golgari Grave Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug
1x Flame Kin Zealot

4x Bridge from Below
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
3x Breakthrough
4x Faithless Looting
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Careful Study
2x Dread Return

4x Mana Confluence
3x Gemstone Mine
2x City of Brass
3x Cephalid Coliseum

SB:

My combo version still wouldn't be the craziest just the most efficient at killing someone with the least dead cards possible. Dread Return in your hand is awful so it leads to more mulligans, however, this should be alleviated by the fact that there are now a exorbitant amount of discard outlets in the form of Careful Study, Faithless Looting, Putrid Imp, LED, and Cabal Therapy... Breakthrough.. Flame Kin Zealot does nothing outside of being a DR Target (not a black creature for Ichorid), but it leads to the instant kill usually and doesn't need additional cards to get your opponent dead like Flayer or Griselbrand do.

[Beatusnox]

While I agree that Flayer often needs help to win, the main board option to win through a bridge/ disadvantageous board is huge. I also find that with the inclusion of Amalgam it gives additional power to the Flayer and allows additional grinding while giving the potential for a combo kill.

The lack of more black creatures is why I am only running 3 Ichorids instead of 4.

Sent from my ASUS_Z00TD using Tapatalk

[jimmythegreek]

While I agree that Flayer often needs help to win, the main board option to win through a bridge/ disadvantageous board is huge. I also find that with the inclusion of Amalgam it gives additional power to the Flayer and allows additional grinding while giving the potential for a combo kill.

The lack of more black creatures is why I am only running 3 Ichorids instead of 4.

Sent from my ASUS_Z00TD using Tapatalk

An ensnaring bridge is one thing, we create the disadvantageous board not them. This deck primarily wins through beats and i have a hard time understanding why people try to get cute with dread return. Our opening hands need to be gas that include preferably draw spells and lands, not hopes and prayers. Besides in the board, i never fuck with dread return and targets. Amalgam now gives us another free threat to overwhelm with, three ichorid and two amalgam has been awesome and you don't have to play force for amalgam to be optimal. Lands, draw spells and dredgers; that' how you win most consistent.

[LVA]

An ensnaring bridge is one thing, we create the disadvantageous board not them. This deck primarily wins through beats and i have a hard time understanding why people try to get cute with dread return. Our opening hands need to be gas that include preferably draw spells and lands, not hopes and prayers. Besides in the board, i never fuck with dread return and targets. Amalgam now gives us another free threat to overwhelm with, three ichorid and two amalgam has been awesome and you don't have to play force for amalgam to be optimal. Lands, draw spells and dredgers; that' how you win most consistent.

I agree with the assessment of Flayer, but general combo is common enough that having a way to win quickly can be important, which is why I like kologhan or the zealot. Also, post board against surgical extraction decks being able to reanimate a fatty is sometimes the only way to win if they snag the bridges with the surgical. Amalgam does help with getting enough creatures without bridge so I think it's great, but since most legacy decks can beat some 3/3s and 1/1s I want something to put the deck over the top without bridge.

[Beatusnox]

An ensnaring bridge is one thing, we create the disadvantageous board not them. This deck primarily wins through beats and i have a hard time understanding why people try to get cute with dread return. Our opening hands need to be gas that include preferably draw spells and lands, not hopes and prayers. Besides in the board, i never fuck with dread return and targets. Amalgam now gives us another free threat to overwhelm with, three ichorid and two amalgam has been awesome and you don't have to play force for amalgam to be optimal. Lands, draw spells and dredgers; that' how you win most consistent.
If you are playing a Grind game, yes our idea is constantly recurring ichorids and amalgams to overtime overwhelm an opponent. 4 sacrifice 1 creature effects vs 3 sacrifice 1 and 3 sacrifice 3 is a huge difference. Dread Return is also a synergy with Amalgam which can enable bigger damages or board clears against a deck like Death and Taxes.

I agree being a deck that wants gas is a base definition of Dredge, however, I have had maybe 10 mulligans anecdotally caused by DR build hands and given how long I've played the deck, I'll take the added explosiveness.

Once again anecdotally, I have had enough legitimate turn 1 kills from having the DR package that seem to warrant its inclusion in a meta with 1-2 mana hate and force of will.

Sent from my ASUS_Z00TD using Tapatalk

[Que]

Hi all recently got top 8 at another GPT. Here is the list for reference which is pretty much what I had been discussing previously, however, this is the version that did not include Gitaxian Probe: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31554-Los-Angeles-CA-Knight-Ware-Sunday-5-14-2017-20-25-Trop-Tundra-Vegas-GPT-1&p=1007977&viewfull=1#post1007977

6 Round Tournament

Round 1: Bye, "must be nice."
1-0
Round 2: Elves, 2-1
2-0
Round 3: DnT, 0-2
2-1
Round 4: U/R Delver, 2-0
3-1
Round 5: U/W/R Stoneblade, 2-1
4-1
Round 6: ID
4-1-1 into Top 8

Quarterfinals: Sneak & Show, buddy of mine who already had byes for the GP, he concedes to me.

Semi Finals: U/R Delver, 0-2

Game 1: I had to mulligan to 5 and he FOW'd my only discard outlet. He plays Delver and a cantrips into more soft counters in the form of daze to stop me from really doing anything. Eventually I die to Delver and some swiftspears rather quickly.
Game 2: I keep with Putrid Imp, land, Coliseum, Firestorm, a couple of narcos, and an Ichorid I believe. My plan was to just Firestorm his early pressure and once I hit a dredger I could make it rather elementary. I was able to firestorm a couple of creatures, however, it took me longer than I thought to find a dredger and by that point he had found more cheap threats to add to the board. In hindsight my keep was greedy, but I also wanted to test Firestorm some more.

If there was one thing I might look into it would be to fit the 12th dredger in there somewhere. The games I'm usually losing are the games I mulligan heavily due to not finding a dredger in my opening hand.

[SHABOOGS]

Congrats on another T8 finish, Que. I also got into T8 in our regular monthly legacy tournament here in the Philippines. These were my match ups:

Rd1 2-1 Win vs Burn
Rd2 2-0 Win vs ANT
Rd3 2-0 Win vs MUD Post
Rd4 0-2 Loss vs BR Reanimator
Rd5 ID

Finished 4th in the swiss with a record of 3-1-1 but lost in the quarterfinals to Grixis Delver in 3 games because of double surgical and a grafdigger's cage in both postboard games.

[RThomas-]

Hey folks,

It's nice to be back. I'm quite glad that we're still floating around and improving with this deck. The last contribution I had to the discussion is now in the archived threads forum. Yikes.

Since I'm re-immersing myself in the format (though not unfamiliar with what's played now), I would like to start with some deeper analysis than playing card x over card y. So, here's an opening hand I had in a test recently:

You can view it here (https://i.imgur.com/gcJlNLT.jpg)

The list is nearly a mirror of Joseph's, which is two posts up. I'm on the draw and I kept this hand against an unknown versus (we can discuss this keep as well if you like). Versus mulligans to six, leads with Misty Rainforest, and passes. My draw is Mana Confluence. What are you thinking about as you decide what you're going to do, and what's your preferred line in most situations?

Looking forward to it.

[LVA]

I feel like you lead with mine and the imp to try to get more info. If it eats a daze that's fine, if it eats force great, if it resolves even better. If it resolves or gets forced, or maybe even dazed I would run out the LED assuming the path is most likely clear, then I would just leave it in play until I can cast a looter. Trying to go all in on breakthrough seems suspect with just thug. My biggest fear is wasteland on turn 2 followed by a bunch of soft counters on the looters. This hand can grind pretty well so as long as you can cast things you are going to beat any fair deck.

Since there is no cantrip I would assume they aren't a combo deck. If they are a combo deck they are probably sneak and show with a turn 2 show and tell next turn. I would assume the opponent is rug delver or a bug deck of some kind, against either of those that hand is great. If it is actually a fair deck breakthrough is less relevant regardless, so saving it for last is probably the best bet regardless.

[Izor]

First of all, hand is a snap keep. It's almost perfect.

Second, once you draw the second land off the top your hand is practically 100% against all fair decks in the format that would lead on Misty, because even double-counter plus Turn 2 Wasteland don't blow you out.

My line would be:
1. Play confluence.
2. Play LED.
3. Play Study and see what they do. Can't really go on talking without knowing what they end up doing, it depends on too many things. If they Force, they probably have no other counters, which means your flashbacked Looting is likely to resolve. If they Daze, they're not a combo deck and you can pass turn doing the same play next turn, etc.

[mistercakes]

i think the best way here is to start with imp. if you do however want to start with a draw2 spell, then you should start with faithless first. coliseum can always cast your blue spells and you never know how grindy a game can get.

the correct play is definitely the imp, as it lets you deal with some unlucky dredges the most easily.

[jimmythegreek]

I would loot first. With all those draw spells there's no reason to not test the waters. If there were ichorids and bridges in hand i would lead with imp, otherwise the card advantage is too important.

[Parcher]

Arguing this hand is academic. Since outside of the weak dredger it's perfect. You start first on what your opponent is on. Obviously Blue. How many Blue decks in Legacy keep a hand without a T1 play? Very few. With the Fetch being a Misty, it's fair to assume that they are playing Green. Though obviously that's just a guess. But with those points in mind, while I can't put them on a deck, I can put them on cards. My first assumption would be Pierce, with Stifle a distant second.

With that in mind, you have to guess that they are less likely to have removal than countermagic. Especially since those two colors don't have removal. You also have a weak dredger, and you want to get the most value out of him. With your draw already not getting one, banking on another being in your top two is not an acceptable risk in this situation.

You want to lead on Mine. If they are on Waste, which is a good possibility, you want the land that only can be used twice more to go. You then play PImp. If they are on Pierce or Stifle, they won't respond and you pass. If they Daze, you are in amazing shape since they have zero board, and you play LED after clearing their mana. They only possible negative outcome here is if they kill PImp EOT, and you do not find another dredger in your first four during draw. Otherwise on your turn you dredge, discard Thug, play Confluence, play LED, and see what happens from there.

Only bad outcome is if you don't hit a dredger during your draw, then they counter twice on that turn. It's a very small chance of both happening, and you get out of it if your first loot finds a dredger anyway. Unless they also can Waste you, then counter LED, and counter your first loot. After you bricked on dredger. And they killed your Pimp so you couldn't just re-use Thug.

Just shake their hand then.

[SHABOOGS]

My line would be similar to Izor but instead of Confluence, I would play Gemstone Mine instead so that I would still have a more permanent mana source in Mana Confluence if they play and activate Wasteland on their next turn.

[jimmythegreek]

So many variables. I like Parcher's assessment on misty being counter magic rather than removal and most likely pierce. A deck leading with misty could also be storm. This is good talk.

[RThomas-]

Good work, people. Such parlays may be academic to some but are quite useful to me when I'm stuck testing in solo mode. It opens up new lines of thinking for me, so well done.

Processing it all, I tend to side with the Gemstone Mine, Putrid Imp, pass line. It's probably appropriate to think of an upcoming Spell Pierce and Wasteland since their clock hasn't started. Prior to discussion, I would likely have led with Gemstone Mine, Lion's Eye Diamond, and a draw spell. I don't think this makes as much sense since their play shows we don't need to blow up now, and can thus take our first two turns into consideration at the same time.

Good work. Perhaps we'll do another one later.

[Wolfie]

Hi, so this is my first time posting but I've been lurking for months. Figured I might as well share what I'm working with.

// 4 Artifact
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

// 23 Creature
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
3 Prized Amalgam
4 Narcomoeba

// 4 Enchantment
4 Bridge from Below

// 12 Land
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 City of Brass

// 17 Sorcery
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Dread Return


// 15 Sideboard
SB: 1 Ashen Rider
SB: 1 Ashen Ghoul
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Unmask
SB: 1 Dread Return

It's been pretty good so far. If I can remember how to sideboard correctly I'm usually fine. The current MVPs have been Amalgam and Gitaxian Probe + Cabal Therapies. I'm curious why no third amalgam. I've tried main deck fatties, but there were several points in multiple games where if they had been amalgam, I would be infinitely closer to winning the game and not durdling to find my engine. Along those same lines, I cut breakthrough and a cephalid coliseum because i got sick of having to mulligan hands away that would be otherwise keep-able. In return probe therapy gives a second angle of attack and improves a lot of otherwise medium game 1s, and the extra rainbow land helps just to play magic.

I've gotten some flak for no on board hate, but it seems better to just be fearless right now. Out of all the hate available in the format, they either all do something when they enter, or the removal forces them to crack it. If i had the anti hate in hand and the mana to cast it, that's great! But that still doesn't prevent the tempo loss from an auto cracked piece of hate, or a triggered ability like from Rest in Peace. In addition I've always gotten the smackdown from 20 to 0 if I had to dig for the anti hate piece. So I'd rather just rip it out of their hand post board or counter it before it hits the table.

So that's what I have, if anyone wants to yell at me for something very obvious I've missed please feel free to do so. Also is there a dredge discord, and if so can someone post the invite link?

[jimmythegreek]

Ive always run 4 coliseum and rarely upset when i see it in my opener, an uncounterable loot for three is quite good. Thirteen land is a good starting point, twelve seems just short. Also, i dont understand cutting breakthrough. A good player will counter your first looting effect, if your first spell resolves (unless opponent draws into counter magic) more than likely you'll be able to breakthrough on turn two, daze proof providing a land drop mind you. Very often cabal therapy is what wins games and a turn two breakthrough is what fills our yard with all the necessities to tear apart our opponents hand and amass an army of zombies. Not to mention playing three amalgam is at risk of getting stuck in hand territory, breakthrough is another way of getting things in your hand into the grave.

[LVA]

I have always felt probe in dredge is sort of a mistake, there are only so many cards we care about so of all the therapy decks in the forma we are probably the best at blind naming. For that reason I prefer street wraith as it is more food for ichorid and it can also counter a surgical or deathrite activation on any of the dredgers. I'm also biased to 4 firestorm in the sideboard because of deathrite.

[RThomas-]

-
2 Putrid Imp
4 Gitaxian Probe
-

The current MVPs have been Amalgam and Gitaxian Probe + Cabal Therapies... In return probe therapy gives a second angle of attack and improves a lot of otherwise medium game 1s

A few questions that will hopefully provoke thoughtful discussion:

1) Do you feel that exchanging Breakthrough for Gitaxian Probe is a fair speed sacrifice? By this I mean do you view losing three cards drawn to be outweighed by the ability to see what to name with Cabal Therapy?
2) Do you find that you are still able to outrace Deathrite Shaman in situations where it's appropriate to do so?
3) In a similar vein, are you playing your deck in a meta where you're familiar with most of the players and decks, or in larger tournaments with many unknowns?
4) Finally, do you believe that you still have enough discard outlets with zero Breakthrough and two Putrid Imp?

I focus on Deathrite Shaman because it seems to be the most prevalent type of stumbling block. Here, I offer a bit of a misnomer: I find it's always appropriate to outrace Deathrite Shaman. So, I want to do so by drawing a high amount of cards. I don't get to do that with Gitaxian Probe. Sure, I get to see their hand, but it doesn't match up with the way that I want to play Cabal Therapy. When I play it, I either want to strip stuff that speeds their clock (most of the times) or clear the way for my draw spell (sometimes). When the former is true, I often find myself in a state where I'm pretty sure about what I want to name anyway. In the latter cases, I discover that a bigger draw spell might just do the job anyway, either by resolving with a larger effect or drawing out a counter spell. Additionally, I find that doing so is less effective when I can't double down on Cabal Therapy with Putrid Imp and that's difficult with only two in the deck.

I might consider Gitaxian Probe in an unknown or larger meta when figuring stuff out in game one is more important, but less so when my scene is local, known players. So keep that in mind as well.

I find that a configuration like yours lacks the flow that I want to get the job done quickly. So if it's different for you, I'd like to hear about your experience. Thanks.

[Wolfie]

So like take me with a grain of salt, I'm a pretty average player. I'm typically playing at both local legacy events when I'm not bombarded by schoolwork or other responsibilities. I'll also make the effort to go to larger legacy events and the occasional side event at a GP if it's within a reasonable distance. My locals are stacked to be fair, I constantly feel like I'm the worst player there and that I'm winning because I'm extremely lucky rather than my ability to play to my outs. I think the area I've been struggling the most with are decks I don't have experience in the match-up. If I don't see them often enough, I'm not going to know how to play and I just sorta flounder. I should also mention that i cannot blind therapy consistently. Like at all. I'm really bad at blind naming with cabal therapy. I don't think I can stress this enough honestly. I play on a super intuitive level, playing magic well means I can't think about playing magic. This is the exact opposite of playing a blind therapy, so for me this will more or less be random guessing unless i can get the read on my opponent before they sit down. Even then, it will still be more or less random for me.

So far I haven't noticed a decrease in "speed." If anything it's the opposite, but i think this has more to do with the third amalgam than anything. I get the feeling I'm super aggressive with my amalgams when others think shouldn't be. I'll frequently swing like a madman into my opponent's board of early game threats like flipped Delver of Secrets, Deathrite Shamans, Mother of Runes, Thalias, or Matter Reshapers, when I have multiple bridges sitting in my graveyard but in my mind this is perfectly reasonable because outside of elves, Decks that run Deathrite Shaman and other small bodies don't really know how to handle a 3/3 that well, let alone multiple. Like don't get me wrong, I'm not saying don't play x or y way, I'm trying to say I want to be playing to my outs.

My issue with breakthrough specifically is how inconsistent of a card it is. The optimal way to play Breaktrhough is after a somewhat established graveyard. This means it's usually coming down turn 2 or later when we're already kind of playing magic. The reason this matters at all is same reason why I haven't be scared of Deathrite Shaman in a long time. It isn't fair to say the best way to play around Deathrite Shaman is to race it, the best way to play around it is to overwhelm it, usually. Against a lot of decks they can't handle multiple dredgers, or multiple ichorid triggers. Breakthrough doesn't line up vs this plan very well since we need to not see wasteland, daze, force, or cabal therapy for it to work. This shouldn't be an exhaustive list of "how to stop dredge and why breaktrhough isn't my favorite card for this scenario" but how many cards stop both of these plans. Without a dredger in the yard, the amount of resources you have available to you is effectively n+4, but without the ability to keep meaningful amounts of cards for future turns. In the scenario of "our early game loot got forced" I'd much rather have the free spell, we're not coming back with just a breakthrough. Gitaxian probe is just more synergistic with looters. Loot into probe comes down the same turn you loot. This scenario gives our opponent less time to interact, often with Deathrite Shaman staring down as a summoning sick 1/2. This doesn't begin to cover the amount of zig vs zag probe has either with the rest of our deck.

Putrid imp is a fantastic magic card. I love seeing him, but I had to make concessions to the blue count for force of will post board. If i were to play a 3rd, I'd slot him in the slot with ashen ghoul. I don't think I would play more of him though. I'm not a fan of seeing multiple in the hand.

[RThomas-]

I should also mention that i cannot blind therapy consistently. Like at all. I'm really bad at blind naming with cabal therapy. I don't think I can stress this enough honestly.

This was all of us when we began playing Cabal Therapy. Knowing what to name when is a learned skill. A good start is this article (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/52501/the-cutting-room-floor-group-therapy) by Michael where he explains his approach in various situations. Using his advice as a starting point, I recommend that you take a look at the popular decks and their common lists, note their best cards, and figure out which card you want to hit the most in your game situation. You will learn with time and experience.

Others can chime in on the particulars of your deck construction.

[LVA]

As a general rule for dredge I name counter spells, usually force of will, if I haven't really established dredging. I name removal spells first if i have gotten going. Removal spells are basically all you care about in game 1 because they can target their own creatures to exile bridges. Knowing what to name at that point is usually a matter of looking at their dual lands and making the best guess possible. Usually fatal push or abrupt decay out of black decks, lightning bolt for red, and swords to plowshares for white.

In game 2 just go for hate cards. If a white player kept a 7 or 6 card hand my first name is always Rest In Peace. With delver decks surgical extraction is the hate of choice, so that is what I name.

[ChemicalBurns]

Wolfie, I'm glad this conversation has been getting opened up concerning Probe. Honestly, I'm a big fan of angling Dredge into this disruptive beatdown machine that can fight through random hate game 1, or just shred apart hands for value. The core of Probe/Therapy/Pimp is really great at tearing through opponents hands and giving you enough time to completely bowl them over. You also make a great point about Probe being solid as a free spell after a loot to stock up the graveyard very suddenly. I've also Probed, cracked LED in response and still got my flashback looting going as always.

What I like most about Probe is the fact that it makes your Force of Wills very strong in blue matchups too. Typically we want to cut the Breakthrough/LED package against countermagic-heavy decks (or at least I have), as we just want to overwhelm them with continuous chains of draw spells rather than blowing our load in one go. But this means Force can't really be boarded in with it, as without Breakthrough our blue count is too low. But with Probe there's some solid synergy with the boarding plan, at least in my experience.

I also think there is something to be said about having on point Therapies. Hate has been getting quite diverse recently, not to mention knowing which cantrips to Therapy away to stop the opponent digging from hate is pretty great too.

I do think 3 Amalgams is a lot though, and would sooner add the 3rd Pimp.

Currently I am still on Breakthrough, but I've been doing a lot of investigation into Probe and have been pleased with it. I think it's a really valid choice with some definite boons. The only thing I'd be wary of is mulligan decisions. Don't keep trap hands just because of Probe Therapy - despite how tempting they seem - you still need to do your usual Dredge thing.

[Oestrus]

Shout out to 'Sand_Crab' for coming in 14th in Saturday's Legacy Challenge with LED Dredge.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2017-05-29

[Que]

Looks like 4th time was the charm; finally collected my byes for GP Vegas. Is anyone else planning on going?

[Oestrus]

Looks like 4th time was the charm; finally collected my byes for GP Vegas. Is anyone else planning on going?

I'll be there with Bazaars on!

[LVA]

Looks like 4th time was the charm; finally collected my byes for GP Vegas. Is anyone else planning on going?

Nice Job, look forward to hearing how well you do at the GP. Sadly I won't be able to go despite the fact that I'm only going to be 2 hours away in Utah :(

[Que]

I'll be there with Bazaars on!

Haha awesome. Hope to see you all you guys there!


Nice Job, look forward to hearing how well you do at the GP. Sadly I won't be able to go despite the fact that I'm only going to be 2 hours away in Utah :(

Aww thats unfortunate. And thank you I'm hoping to do well! Thats the plan anyway. :D

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have another big tournament for Legacy staples this Sunday so it will be my last serious practice before the event itself. I'm still not set on my sideboard and this will give me the chance to try out a slightly different configuration. I'm pretty much happy with my mainboard. I'll report on how it goes. :)

[meffeo]

Haha awesome. Hope to see you all you guys there!



Aww thats unfortunate. And thank you I'm hoping to do well! Thats the plan anyway. :D

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have another big tournament for Legacy staples this Sunday so it will be my last serious practice before the event itself. I'm still not set on my sideboard and this will give me the chance to try out a slightly different configuration. I'm pretty much happy with my mainboard. I'll report on how it goes. :)

Best of luck then :cool:

[Beatusnox]

I've found, at least with your first therapy don't name what you think they have, name what they COULD have that beats you. Many times I've seen people name a card that doesn't really do anything against them, but and still lose because they didn't name the card that beats them.

Also write down known information in their hand. This deck is a monster when it comes to tracking everything, even more so now that the Amalgam delayed trigger is in the list. Don't rely on just your brain to remember everything, its busy enough. When you therapy or even probe keep that information.

Beyond that, I have a Dual Land tournament later today with the list I posted earlier, as long as I don't scrub out I plan on doing a report.

Sent from my ASUS_Z00TD using Tapatalk

[Beatusnox]

I scrubbed out =(.

Rd. 1: Tinfins
Won the die roll. Careful study off coliseum turn 1 pitched two dredgers found me LED and a Land.
Turn two I go nuts and combo kill with Flayed+GGT and Amalgam.

Game 2 I side in Leyline. Declare pregame effects and opponent scoops. They didn't think I'd bring it in and didn't bring in any anti-hate.

Rd. 2: 12post.
I keep a decent hand G1 I don't remember too much other than casting a looting, dredging 11 cards and hitting lands+irrelevant gas in the GY. Get beaten to death by fatties.

Game 2 even worse. Keep a good hand, but he never taps off his green and eventually just bogs me out.

Rd. 3 Nic fit.
To be honest I don't remember this round too well, I mentally checked out after losing Game 1, but game 2.... I have never experienced such an ass whopping.
I start land therapy Scooze and see a monstrosity. Bayou, Explorer, Surgical, fatal push, deed x2 land.

He plays land explorer and passes. My turn I breakthrough x=1 to keep the coliseum in hand hoping to draw well off of breakthrough. I draw Bridge X2 Narco x2 to go with the one in hand. Discard Ichorid, bridge x2, narco x3. He end of turn nails my ichorids with surgical. Untaps, kills his explorer with push, getting my two bridges, casts Lost Legacy naming Dread Return. Even through all this, he didn't have a clock i roll over the last nacro, I get a bit of dredging going playing draw go, and go too ham, decking myself.

Next round matches against a friend with better breakers, scooped to him to keep him live and went to get food. Didn't drop but scooped to next round opponent. Just wasn't feeling like playing.

I'm happy with my list, even with my garbage performance. I'm inclined to believe my mediocre shuffling and variance being variance.


Sent from my ASUS_Z00TD using Tapatalk

[Bromophelio]

Hey guys,

First time posting on this forum. I have been playing Dredge since I got into Legacy a few months ago. I started with manaless and upgraded to LEDs over a month or so. My meta consists of a lot of combo (storm, reanimator) and grindier delver lists. I started out playing the grindier version of LED with no MB DR targets, but am looking to speed up my game a bit to steal some wins from the faster combo decks. Here is the list I am currently considering:


Mainboard:
3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 City of Brass
2 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
1 Dragonlord Kolaghan
1 Putrid Imp
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mana Confluence
4 Narcomoeba
2 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp

Sideboard:
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Ashen Rider
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Firestorm
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Lotus Petal
3 Unmask



I have gone back and forth on the Amalgams, but I think they are good for G1 and can be boarded out vs some of the faster decks, but maintain a wider threat base to grindy matchups. I don't own an FoW currently, which I think diminishes the value of the Amalgams. I am thinking of keeping the Abrupt Decays in for some of the creature based threats (DRS, Containment Priest) but am still pretty unfamiliar with sideboarding. Does this deck seem like a decent start for beating out some of the combo decks in my meta or should I transition to a slower, Git Probe based list without Breakthroughs to really take down the combo decks?

Again, I'm new here so any tips are appreciated :) Thanks

[Que]

Hey guys,

First time posting on this forum. I have been playing Dredge since I got into Legacy a few months ago. I started with manaless and upgraded to LEDs over a month or so. My meta consists of a lot of combo (storm, reanimator) and grindier delver lists. I started out playing the grindier version of LED with no MB DR targets, but am looking to speed up my game a bit to steal some wins from the faster combo decks. Here is the list I am currently considering:


Mainboard:
3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 City of Brass
3 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mana Confluence
4 Narcomoeba
2 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp

Sideboard:
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Ashen Rider
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Firestorm
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Lotus Petal
3 Unmask



I have gone back and forth on the Amalgams, but I think they are good for G1 and can be boarded out vs some of the faster decks, but maintain a wider threat base to grindy matchups. I don't own an FoW currently, which I think diminishes the value of the Amalgams. I am thinking of keeping the Abrupt Decays in for some of the creature based threats (DRS, Containment Priest) but am still pretty unfamiliar with sideboarding. Does this deck seem like a decent start for beating out some of the combo decks in my meta or should I transition to a slower, Git Probe based list without Breakthroughs to really take down the combo decks?

Again, I'm new here so any tips are appreciated :) Thanks

The biggest issue you're going to have is probably going to be consistency as you now have more opportunities to open hands with more "dead cards" (i.e. Bridge from below, Ichorid, Narcomoeba, Prized Amalgam) by including two additional Dread Return and Flayer of the Hatebound. Game 1 it likely won't matter as most decks won't have any serious way to deal with your strategy, but it means you can't keep any hands that do not include either a Careful Study or a Faithless Looting to get your engine going; it can get pretty awkward to solely rely on LED as your discard outlet especially if you're not able to use the mana generated to flashback a looting. If you honestly want some advantage over the faster combo decks game 1 then I would want to run main deck Lotus Petal and no Amalgam and relegate those to the board and vice versa if you want to be grindier game 1 and prepare for combo games 2 and 3.



All that being said I still don't believe you need any dedicated DR targets to win and should just try to be the most consistent Dredge deck you can be game 1 because its definitely the game you want to always win. Against combo you want to hit your Cabal Therapies and destroy their hand. Thats how you beat them.

[Bromophelio]

All that being said I still don't believe you need any dedicated DR targets to win and should just try to be the most consistent Dredge deck you can be game 1 because its definitely the game you want to always win. Against combo you want to hit your Cabal Therapies and destroy their hand. Thats how you beat them.


Thanks for the tips. I updated my list to go back to the more standard playstyle of 1 DR main deck with 1 SB as well. This allows me to add in a couple discard outlets in Putrid Imps. I want to keep in one card for a bit of combo game one, so I'll be keeping in a Kolaghan that I can drop out games 2/3. One thing I have been really bad at is knowing how to SB other than bringing in an obvious DR target. Do you have any generic tips, or is the basic strategy always going to be hit Therapies as much as possible and bring in a little counter hate?

[Que]

Thanks for the tips. I updated my list to go back to the more standard playstyle of 1 DR main deck with 1 SB as well. This allows me to add in a couple discard outlets in Putrid Imps. I want to keep in one card for a bit of combo game one, so I'll be keeping in a Kolaghan that I can drop out games 2/3. One thing I have been really bad at is knowing how to SB other than bringing in an obvious DR target. Do you have any generic tips, or is the basic strategy always going to be hit Therapies as much as possible and bring in a little counter hate?

I normally bring in 3x Lotus Petal, 1x Dread Return, and my Dread Return Target of choice for said combo matchup (Iona/Ashen Rider).

Generally if you're not sure what to cut you can always employ a "shave" strat. But def cut the amalgams, some number of Ichorid, some number of Putrid Imp (he's been pretty clutch against the combo decks that play Spell Pierce and/or Flusterstorm though maybe leave in 1 or 2), cut a land going down to 12 because you now have lotus petals. You can also shave a dredger if you're already playing 12.

[Bromophelio]

I normally bring in 3x Lotus Petal, 1x Dread Return, and my Dread Return Target of choice for said combo matchup (Iona/Ashen Rider).

Generally if you're not sure what to cut you can always employ a "shave" strat. But def cut the amalgams, some number of Ichorid, some number of Putrid Imp (he's been pretty clutch against the combo decks that play Spell Pierce and/or Flusterstorm though maybe leave in 1 or 2), cut a land going down to 12 because you now have lotus petals. You can also shave a dredger if you're already playing 12.

Thanks a bunch! I'll be playing again on Monday so I'll have to let you know how it goes. The simple SB tips will help a lot I think.

I've been playing with the goal to dump my hand as fast a possible every game when I should try and hold some stuff back and not set myself up to get hated out as easily. I will try and hold back a little bit until I have a better chance of going off, especially into slower, non-combo matchups.

[tt_abel_tt]

Hey Que, just wanted to thank you for your list. I went 5-4 at GP vegas with the following results:

0-2 uw control (rest in peace + helms of obedience combo)
2-1 reanimator
2-1 infect
0-2 grixis delver
2-1 d&t
2-1 grixis delver
1-2 storm (yuuta takahashi)
1-2 sneak and show
2-0 show & tell

This was my first legacy event, but it was fun learning the match ups on the fly. My buddy (D&T player) suggested it after he watched you play @ fire&dice/knightware. I originally made manaless dredge as a fringe deck, but I'm glad I made the jump to LED dredge.

I didn't have lotus petals and I didn't quite understand the 13th land, so instead I side-boarded in 3x leyline and 1 surgical.

Prior to the main event, I was play testing against my friend on d&t and it didn't feel like it matter if I had 13 vs 12 land. Even if he played wasteland t1 on the play, I would just go with the manaless dredge route and then save my land so that I can cast the draw spells next turn with dredgers in my gy. Lmk if there was more to it, love to get feedback and learn.

In regards to the gy hate, I was hoping it would improve my storm match-up while also improve the reanimator match-up. From playing against storm, I think I got too happy with the hate and I might have slow down the deck by taking out 1x dread return, 2x breakthrough and 1 putrid imp for 3x leyline and surgical. I was thinking that since lotus petal improves the speed of the dredge deck and leyline would slow down the speed of the storm deck... both cards would do the same thing, but i find myself dredging until t5 for a narcoemba. i also didn't realize how powerful it would be to have putrid imp, cabal, land and lotus petal in my opening hand against storm.

Edit: Also I see why you run wear//tear vs. nature's claim ...leyline + chalice on 1 #feelsbadman

[Que]

Hey Que, just wanted to thank you for your list. I went 5-4 at GP vegas with the following results:

0-2 uw control (rest in peace + helms of obedience combo)
2-1 reanimator
2-1 infect
0-2 grixis delver
2-1 d&t
2-1 grixis delver
1-2 storm (yuuta takahashi)
1-2 sneak and show
2-0 show & tell

This was my first legacy event, but it was fun learning the match ups on the fly. My buddy (D&T player) suggested it after he watched you play @ fire&dice/knightware. I originally made manaless dredge as a fringe deck, but I'm glad I made the jump to LED dredge.

I didn't have lotus petals and I didn't quite understand the 13th land, so instead I side-boarded in 3x leyline and 1 surgical.

Prior to the main event, I was play testing against my friend on d&t and it didn't feel like it matter if I had 13 vs 12 land. Even if he played wasteland t1 on the play, I would just go with the manaless dredge route and then save my land so that I can cast the draw spells next turn with dredgers in my gy. Lmk if there was more to it, love to get feedback and learn.

In regards to the gy hate, I was hoping it would improve my storm match-up while also improve the reanimator match-up. From playing against storm, I think I got too happy with the hate and I might have slow down the deck by taking out 1x dread return, 2x breakthrough and 1 putrid imp for 3x leyline and surgical. I was thinking that since lotus petal improves the speed of the dredge deck and leyline would slow down the speed of the storm deck... both cards would do the same thing, but i find myself dredging until t5 for a narcoemba. i also didn't realize how powerful it would be to have putrid imp, cabal, land and lotus petal in my opening hand against storm.

Edit: Also I see why you run wear//tear vs. nature's claim ...leyline + chalice on 1 #feelsbadman

Hey no problem! :) Welcome to the LED fold. haha

Yeah the 13th land is kind of weird. But I usually bring it in against Wasteland decks or where games might go longer than 3 turns. And I tend to lean towards not having gravehate or at least not Surgical as I've still lost to Reanimator playing that card. I like the Petals to just go faster and it has helped me beat decks like Storm, Tin Fins, and Lands. Reanimator will always be tough unless they just completely brick or you "turn 1" them both games and you're on the play. xD

With regards to saving your land thats the right idea. Next turn you have the chance to dredge into a Narco + Cabal Therapy which allows you to check you Opp's hand for counter magic before you fire off your draw spell.

Against storm don't board out your breakthrough as that is your most powerful draw spell. You need to board out slower cards like Prized Amalgam (if you're running it), some number of Ichorid, and a couple of Putrid Imp and bring in a Dread Return Target presumably Iona to shut them out. Ultimately Cabal Therapy is MVP here as you want to strip away their resources. You want to be naming Infernal Tutor, LED (if they haven't cast them for some reason) primarily.

Yup Wear/Tear lol. Now you got it! Though I will not fault anyone for running Nature's Claim either.

[Smea.gol.lum]

What about Failure // Comply from Amonkhet as a sideboard card against other combo decks?
Comply can be dredged into and be cast for W from the gy. You can buy valuable time by naming the scariest card.

[tt_abel_tt]

Hey no problem! :) Welcome to the LED fold. haha

Yeah the 13th land is kind of weird. But I usually bring it in against Wasteland decks or where games might go longer than 3 turns. And I tend to lean towards not having gravehate or at least not Surgical as I've still lost to Reanimator playing that card. I like the Petals to just go faster and it has helped me beat decks like Storm, Tin Fins, and Lands. Reanimator will always be tough unless they just completely brick or you "turn 1" them both games and you're on the play. xD

With regards to saving your land thats the right idea. Next turn you have the chance to dredge into a Narco + Cabal Therapy which allows you to check you Opp's hand for counter magic before you fire off your draw spell.

Against storm don't board out your breakthrough as that is your most powerful draw spell. You need to board out slower cards like Prized Amalgam (if you're running it), some number of Ichorid, and a couple of Putrid Imp and bring in a Dread Return Target presumably Iona to shut them out. Ultimately Cabal Therapy is MVP here as you want to strip away their resources. You want to be naming Infernal Tutor, LED (if they haven't cast them for some reason) primarily.

Yup Wear/Tear lol. Now you got it! Though I will not fault anyone for running Nature's Claim either.

Iona!! aww i didn't think about using it in the storm match-up. I kinda assume it was for merfolk/elves/goblins. I assume you name black to stop their tutor/ritual.

In regards to side-boarding, I've been keeping the card count of draw spells at 10 (based on your list of 4x looting, 3x careful studies, 3x breakthrough). I assume we never touch the looting, since it's the main interaction with led, but I've seen people running different ratio of careful studies and breakthrough. I assume the difference is that breakthrough is faster, so you would want more against aggro/combo decks, while careful is better for slower grinding match-ups where you want to keep hate cards that you can cast in your hand. As i mentioned, I've been keeping my draw spells to 10, so i would do things like -1 careful study and +1 breakthrough. From your experience, would adding more card draws clutter your hand and vice versa would reducing card draw reduce the speed of the deck i.e. taking more turns to dredge something relevant... my decision originally for removing breakthrough against combo was actually geared more around trying to getting surgical in my hand to strip him of a combo piece, rather than going as fast as possible. Definitely not going with this strat next time i play against storm.

Also related to side boarding, i feel like this is one of those decks where sometimes you just don't care about hate or what your opponent is doing so you just want to go as fast as possible. From your experience, Besides storm, what other match-up would you give up on hate/removal and just focus on winning.

Thanks again for the feedback!! Hopefully one day I'll make the trip up to one of your local legacy events, so i can get some more games in and learn some more match-ups from watching you play live. Hopefully you won't out meta everyone and go full delver again... xD

[tt_abel_tt]

What about Failure // Comply from Amonkhet as a sideboard card against other combo decks?
Comply can be dredged into and be cast for W from the gy. You can buy valuable time by naming the scariest card.

That's a pretty spicy card.

[RThomas-]

Here are some thoughts:


Iona!! aww i didn't think about using it in the storm match-up. I kinda assume it was for merfolk/elves/goblins. I assume you name black to stop their tutor/ritual.

It depends, of course, on the type of storm you're playing against. A standard blue/black storm list probably has black as the best color to name. Note that in games vs. Epic Storm, however, you'll want to name red, as Bryant Cook notes in his GP Vegas fifteenth round match here (http://www.theepicstorm.com/gp-las-vegas-0615-162017-80th-place/).


Also related to side boarding, i feel like this is one of those decks where sometimes you just don't care about hate or what your opponent is doing so you just want to go as fast as possible. From your experience, Besides storm, what other match-up would you give up on hate/removal and just focus on winning.


This is pretty true against most of the fair decks IMO. Example: I've retried Pithing Needle in the sideboard recently. Against Elves and Deathrite Shaman decks, which I thought it would be terrific against, I always wanted to play a draw spell instead, which is usually what I held off playing in lieu of getting Needle in quickly. The deck is too strong as-is to water it down with stuff like this.


What about Failure // Comply from Amonkhet as a sideboard card against other combo decks?
Comply can be dredged into and be cast for W from the gy. You can buy valuable time by naming the scariest card.

Nice idea since it gets around Therapy and Duress, which your Storm opponent will always leave in against you. It does risk, however, being a little too narrow. What do you name? Infernal Tutor, Past in Flames, Ad Nauseam, Dark Petition, Ritual effects? Storm seems a little too versatile for a one-turn Meddling Mage to be the difference. I would usually rather play a Breakthrough or Faithless Looting with that one mana. YMMV.

Good job in your first time @ GP Vegas.

[Que]

Hmm weird I thought I had posted my brief comments on the GP trip, but I guess it slipped my mind. Anywhoo

I was not incredibly happy with my performance going 5-4 at the grand prix. I wish I could have had better results, but sometimes the cards don't fall in your favor. I felt good about my play all day, but I did unfortunately run into some significant amount of hate. I beat Sneak & Show, Lands, and Grixis Delver. I lost to Bant Deathblade, Food Chain, BUG Delver, and Sneak & Show.

My loss game 3 against Bant came at the hands of a Containment Priest. On the board he also had an EE he played on turn his turn 1 on Zero and a noble hierarch. I was trying to regain some advantage by casting two drops and saccing them to Therapy to put out a couple of zombies a turn. He plows one of the zombies I manage to get that turn and then draws Jitte to shut the door completely; I did not have the Firestorm and did not find Wear/Tear.

My loss to food Chain was due to a game 3 Cage that I could not find a Wear/Tear for after looting twice off of two Cephalid Coliseums and a couple of Careful Studies. BUG Delver hit me with 2 Surgicals and a DRS. Against the Sneak and Show opponent I had the “turn 1”kill, however, he presented Cage and I didn’t board in Wear/Tear. In that match I unfortunately lost game 1 after he went all in on Sneak Attack and let me tear his hand apart; he then drew a cantrip, cast it, found a Griselbrand and proceeded to kill me the turn before he would die to lethal zombies +Ichorid.

After that I decidedly spent most of my time hanging out in Vegas. I didn’t play any magic outside of the main event. I was just chillin all weekend. xD

[Blastoderm]

I'm somewhat new to LED Dredge (I started with Manaless even though I have LEDs lol). Was wondering why wear//tear in the sideboard over fragmentize? Is Wear simply there to get through chalice?

[slave]

I'm somewhat new to LED Dredge (I started with Manaless even though I have LEDs lol). Was wondering why wear//tear in the sideboard over fragmentize? Is Wear simply there to get through chalice?
Pretty much my experience - being a deck full of 1-drops we need something that can get thru a chalice @ 1.


What about Failure // Comply from Amonkhet as a sideboard card against other combo decks?
Comply can be dredged into and be cast for W from the gy. You can buy valuable time by naming the scariest card.
Not bad at all. I missed this one. I'm assuming very few of us are considering this for the *instant* part.
It's situational, but might potentially allow us to name their hate multiple turns in a row, or their combo. Useful. :cool:

[slave]

Also;
Failure // Comply also counts as a blue card for the Force of Will sideboard plan, which might help for a few more ways to hinder combo and hate. I'm sure I have no idea how effective the card will be against anything, and when I (mostly) run blue I rarely side in more than 6 cards, but I will at least have something new to test here in dredge.
Been a while since I've said THAT! :laugh:

[Bromophelio]

Finally getting a chance to do a brief write-up on my local store's legacy night this Monday. I have been switching aroudn buildsa nd finally found one that I like in my meta. I went 3-1, beating Storm, DnT and Infect, while losing to Elves.


First off, here is the list I have settled on for a meta including a lot of storm, delver and recently DnT

3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 City of Brass
1 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mana Confluence
4 Narcomoeba
2 Prized Amalgam
2 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp

Sideboard:
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Ashen Rider
1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Firestorm
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Lotus Petal
2 Unmask

Match1: TES 1-0

Game 1: Lose turn 1 on the draw to tendrils. Nothing to see here
Game 2: Keep a hand with 2 coliesums an LED, couple dredges and FkZ. Pass turn without doing anything exciting and my opponent goes off again, but whiffs his Ad Nasueum down to 1 life. I manage to dread return my FkZ and kill him T2.
Game 3: He plays a much slower hand with Ponders and no big explosion. Grind him out with Cabal Therapies and Dread Return an Iona naming red. He draws a Burning wish and scoops

Match 2: Elves 1-1
Game 1: On the draw again. not a super explosive start, but I Cabal Therapy him getting rid of Natural Order when he as about 5 creatures on the field and I ahve 9 zombies. He draws Cradle and brings in Craterhoof for the win.
Game 2: I'm on the play, but keep a rough hand with no dredgres, but a lot of draw. I don't draw into anything and get Craterhoofed ~T4.

Match 3 DnT 2-1
Game 1: I do my thing and get a quick kill with zombies and FkZ
Game 2: Opponent mulligans to 1 keeps a plains and scries a RiP on top. He doesn't draw a land t3 and scoops. I have enough zombies onthe board that I wasn't concerned about the RiP and had Cabal Therappy to take it away anyway.

Match 4: Infect 3-1
This match was scary and my Cabal Therapies saved me.
Game 1: Win through a slow ichorid recursion and amassing a zombie wave while keeping a Narcomoeba up for Inkmoth Nexus. Name Berserk with Therapy and get lucky once. A ble to grind him out and win.
Game 2: Bring in Elesh and hope I don't get comboed. Run into early CTs and take away 2 berserks while maintaining a decent board. Comes down to him having to topdeck a berserk and he doesn't.

Overall I like the way my new lists runs. It feels like it has enough of the combo speed and maintains its resilience and can play slow if need be. After sideboarding, I can go for the all out combo kill or take out some of the more hit or miss aspects and get ready for a grind. Solid night and my first time going 3-1 at the local store.

[Cope]

Sooo I haven't been on this thread for a while now apparently and looking through the past several pages I'm seeing alot of things that surprise me, eg. people are not only playing less than 4 Breakthough, but in some cases replacing it (or Study) with Gitaxian Probe???

For reference, my current list is as follows:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Mana Confluence
4 City of Brass
1 Gemstone Mine

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Putrid Imp

SB:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Firestorm
2 Nature's Claim
1 Wear//Tear
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Dread Return
1 Iona
1 Dragonlord Kolaghan


Over the past several months playing at local tournaments, I found myself losing several games to losing my Gemstone Mines, so I switched to/am trying 4 Citys because the life loss rarely seems relevant in my experience, though this could be an overreaction to my recent small sample size and any mix of City/Mine for the last 5 rainbow land slots could work just fine I'm sure. I also finally replaced the FKZ with a Dragonlord Kolaghan because the only time FKZ is better is if you have exactly 6 zombies and you can swing for 21 whereas itd be 18 with Kolaghan, and while Kolaghan can get STPed before attacks, STP seems less prevalent these days with (real) Miracles gone, and its of course much better to reanimate by itself and is a black creature for Ichorid if needed. The Leylines have been impressive though honestly, it gives us a lot of game against the Reanimator decks which are normally awful matchups and have been becoming more popular, obv the mirror, and even has some utility vs Lands decks as well.

Some changes I'm considering trying/making based on reading the last many pages of this thread would be trying +2 Amalgam, taking out 1 Ichorid and either Thug#4 or Putrid Imp#2. I'll admit haven't tried the FoW SB package (don't own them lol) but it doesn't sound very good to me anyways, hoping to have FoW, blue card, and an otherwise functional hand just seems very optimistic to me. But I can definitely see the appeal of diversifying the Ichorid/Amalgam mix tho esp with seemingly every SB having 2-3 Surgicals (as they should), but it usually takes 2 Surgicals to beat us anyways unless the first one is perfectly timed.

But yeah I just wanted to share my current thoughts/list that I've been having pretty good success with recently as usual, any questions/comments welcome!

-Cope

[slave]

Sooo I haven't been on this thread for a while now apparently and looking through the past several pages I'm seeing alot of things that surprise me, eg. people are not only playing less than 4 Breakthough, but in some cases replacing it (or Study) with Gitaxian Probe???
I know right?
I can fully appreciate that as a newer player to legacy, Probe is like a warm blanket that can help to make your therapies a little more accurate. Fair enough, but they're suboptimal at best, not a card I want in LED-dredge at all. I prefer the 4x Breakthru, 4x LED build that wants to combo out quick.

I run a build similar-ish to you. I also run a single dread return without a mainboard target besides GGT. I find it does the job against an unknown opponent pretty well.
Your side looks a little light on for fighting hate for me. I've personally found that running 2 Iona with a few DR's has helped my chances of beating combo and a lot of hate cards alike for quite a while now.
I run the blue build - it's not for everyone. Bear in mind the FoW is not just there to counter stuff, it's to fool your opponent into playing slower and buy you another turn to kill them.
Amalgam is worth the effort, the extra damage and additional body is useful when playing against extraction, as I find Icky tends to get extracted often.
I tried running Surg Extraction a while back, but I chose to drop it in favour of Faerie Macabre (for icky), but I no longer play it at all as I'd rather dedicate my side into beating combo and hate.

[Que]

Sooo I haven't been on this thread for a while now apparently and looking through the past several pages I'm seeing alot of things that surprise me, eg. people are not only playing less than 4 Breakthough, but in some cases replacing it (or Study) with Gitaxian Probe???

For reference, my current list is as follows:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Mana Confluence
4 City of Brass
1 Gemstone Mine

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Putrid Imp

SB:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Firestorm
2 Nature's Claim
1 Wear//Tear
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Dread Return
1 Iona
1 Dragonlord Kolaghan


Over the past several months playing at local tournaments, I found myself losing several games to losing my Gemstone Mines, so I switched to/am trying 4 Citys because the life loss rarely seems relevant in my experience, though this could be an overreaction to my recent small sample size and any mix of City/Mine for the last 5 rainbow land slots could work just fine I'm sure. I also finally replaced the FKZ with a Dragonlord Kolaghan because the only time FKZ is better is if you have exactly 6 zombies and you can swing for 21 whereas itd be 18 with Kolaghan, and while Kolaghan can get STPed before attacks, STP seems less prevalent these days with (real) Miracles gone, and its of course much better to reanimate by itself and is a black creature for Ichorid if needed. The Leylines have been impressive though honestly, it gives us a lot of game against the Reanimator decks which are normally awful matchups and have been becoming more popular, obv the mirror, and even has some utility vs Lands decks as well.

Some changes I'm considering trying/making based on reading the last many pages of this thread would be trying +2 Amalgam, taking out 1 Ichorid and either Thug#4 or Putrid Imp#2. I'll admit haven't tried the FoW SB package (don't own them lol) but it doesn't sound very good to me anyways, hoping to have FoW, blue card, and an otherwise functional hand just seems very optimistic to me. But I can definitely see the appeal of diversifying the Ichorid/Amalgam mix tho esp with seemingly every SB having 2-3 Surgicals (as they should), but it usually takes 2 Surgicals to beat us anyways unless the first one is perfectly timed.

But yeah I just wanted to share my current thoughts/list that I've been having pretty good success with recently as usual, any questions/comments welcome!

-Cope


From my vantage point everyone seems to be running the same cookie cutter version of dredge with FKZ. I never ended up running my probe list in tournament so I can't comment on how effective or not it is.

Anyway,

I do like the list you posted. The only change I would make is to ship 1x breakthrough to the board and up the Putrid Imp count to at least 3. He's just such a beast at the moment against cards like Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm. And of course either baiting out or not baiting out a FOW. I like the recurable discard especially when slow dredging; would rather it be 6 cards each turn to get to those 4 Ichorids more reliably.

Imo if your meta calls for the need of 4x leyline of the void then I'm probably not wanting to play dredge in such a hostile meta. As Slave mentioned I would rather dedicate those slots for hate/Combo decks

[Bromophelio]

Any chance I can get a look at the Git Probe list you were working on?
I will be going to GP Minneapolis next week and want to see how it plays in a few side events. Seems like a good chance to see how my FKZ build works vs the Git Probe list.

[jimmythegreek]

Can someone please enlighten me on why you would ever play gitaxian probe in dredge. What card would you remove to make room for probe?

[Chronatog]

Question: How to play in the current metagame full of graveyard hate? What cards/combinations are reliable and consistent? What alternative sideboard strategies are available currently?

Background: I played at a small local tournament with my LED Dredge a few days ago after about one and a half years long sabbatical from Magic and was shocked by the abundance of graveyard hate in my local metagame. Won only once against Lands 2:0 as I was faster, but all other games I lost 1:2 - RUG Delver (countermagic, wastelands, surgical extraction), D&T (taxes, wastelands, cage, surgical, RIP), and Infect (countermagic, surgical, RIP). Apparently, it looks like that the general metagame is in a similar state - everyone is scared of Reanimator and brings a lot of graveyard hate.

After skimming the last dozen pages of this thread I see that Putrid Imp is perceived as an integral part of the deck because it can't be countered by Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm (not to mention that it provides a permanent discard facility). However, with the wide-spread prevalence of Surgical Extraction it is simply not enough to be bale to discard dredgers; it is crucial to be able to draw/dredge instantly. Bazaar of Baghdad is masterpiece that I miss in Legacy and replicate its versatility and ferocity is not easy, if at all. The only reasonable way to draw/dredge without any mana cost that I know is Street Wraith. However with only four copies available, this is not enough.

Perhaps discard heavy Dredge build is what can work well now? Unmasks, perhaps Thoughtseize. Or blue builds with Force of Will and Mindbreak Trap? (Mental Misstep would be so helpful)

So, what best practices are available now to stay competitive in the current metagame? Other than to play something else than Dredge. It looks like Dredge still can confidently and quickly win the first game, but stalls after sideboarding. Perhaps some kind of transformational sideboard plan can work? (Using Pitch Dredge as analogy)

[slave]

Question: How to play in the current metagame full of graveyard hate? What cards/combinations are reliable and consistent? What alternative sideboard strategies are available currently?
Carefully - if at all. I haven't been playing the deck much in the last 6 months, but I love this deck more than any other for some reason I haven't worked out!:laugh:
I don't really see the point if you're going to be battling against RiP & LotV in every match-up, but if extraction is going to be the main obstacle I feel we have a fighting chance. The only bugger with playing carefully, is that the whole LED/Breakthrough line of play that serves this deck so well on Turn1, is something of a punt.


Perhaps discard heavy Dredge build is what can work well now? Unmasks, perhaps Thoughtseize. Or blue builds with Force of Will and Mindbreak Trap? (Mental Misstep would be so helpful)
In the past I've tried Unmask's but we're not really black-cards heavy enough for it to be consistently a good line of play. Brainstorm was always the enemy with any form of targeted discard really. Now with Top gone from miracles, this line of play might actually be a little more viable than it was back when I tried it.

Personally, my first optimized deck in legacy was manaless dredge. Many people pass the deck off as trash, but miss the point of the deck. The fact that most of the lines of play with manaless cannot be interacted with, from using things like Street Wraith, Phantasmagorian etc., is something that rates a mention.
I dunno if some freakish dredge deck could utilise these un-interactive elements with LED, and actually be a good deck....

I currently run a blue FoW variant of Dredge. I've been running the blue build for quite a while now, in both Manaless and LED-dredge.
The main problem with the FoW build is that you do sacrifice some raw speed, as B-thru's are problematic with FoW in hand. Having FoW in hand is great, and whilst it can be effective in baiting your opponent, you only have 4 of them. I tried testing Disrupting Shoal as redundancy for a little while but it was terrible. Mindbreak is my 2nd counter of choice FWIW when I choose to run them.
I'm going to be testing out the new Failure // Comply as a sideboard option but it might end up being far too slow to ever be a threat.


So, what best practices are available now to stay competitive in the current metagame? Other than to play something else than Dredge. It looks like Dredge still can confidently and quickly win the first game, but stalls after sideboarding. Perhaps some kind of transformational sideboard plan can work? (Using Pitch Dredge as analogy)
Quite a few of the guys here like using Lotus Petal's in from the side. I like this approach too.
I've been running 2x Iona in the side, with the plan on naming whatever colour relates to their hate, or combo pieces.
I like the idea of a transformational side, but given how many of the mainboard cards are unique to dredge, I'm not sure how we avoid simply being a very bad version of whatever we're aiming to impersonate. I've tried the Dark Depths version that some have suggested but I found it horribly inconsistent.

[RThomas-]

A brand new, updated primer on Dredge has been posted. Continue your conversations on dredging at this link (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31901-Primer-Dredge). -RT

[Jander78]

Dredge primer and thread have been updated. Please continue all deck development conversations for Dredge here. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31901-Primer-Dredge)