The current state of Magic

[T-101]

Huh? I don't know how you somehow got the idea that only the versions in the new face would be legal. I was suggesting that all cards printed in the new face at any point, with a possible exception for judge promos, would be legal. So for example, you could play Counterspell in Modern because it was printed in the new face, but it wouldn't have to be a new face Counterspell.

On the other hand...

Huh, forgot about that one. I thought it was just Mox Diamond that caused the uproar. That does pose a problem, though I'm not sure if Phyrexian Negator would even be good in the format.

Negator would almost certainly be unplayable. No Dark Ritual, and the format is infested with Lightning Bolt.

[Lord Seth]

Negator would almost certainly be unplayable. No Dark Ritual, and the format is infested with Lightning Bolt.
Dark Ritual would be legal, though, as it's been printed in the new card face, unless Wizards of the Coast decided to ban it (not unlikely).

That said, there are better things to Dark Ritual out anyway, and the 1- and 2-drops in the format will be big enough to cause considerable pain for the Phyrexian Negator's caster. So while it is a little problematic to have a Reserved List card legal, it's a card that would be very unlikely to see any play.

[Barook]

Watching the current MTGO Championship, I have to wonder if Standard implodes rather sooner than later. Considering the entire metagame is Twin combo, Mardu Vehicles and BG Aggro in roughly equal parts (according to tournament data) basically demands another round of bans next Monday, further shaking the format.

I also don't think that their overzealous focus on Standard is going to sell more packs. The overexposure to the format only gets people bored with it faster, not to mention it increases the speed the format is solved.

We're living in rather interesting (or boring, if you play Standard) times.

[ironclad8690]

Seems like the best strategy for selling packs is to reprint non-rotating staples. Fetches/Thoughtseize were the most opened packs in recent memory right?

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

I have a hunch we'll prolly see bans in modern as well (if there are bans in standard, or bans at all), basically every requested reprint for the past 3 years (damnation, snap, lily, enemy fetches, cavern) plus Goyf and other reprints, it's pretty much easier to name staples they didn't reprint (Karn and Grove come to mind as the two big ones). If there was a ban tomorrow, there is a set ready to pump a bunch of fetches and staples into the market in case of a banning to replace whatever it is that is to be banned.

Likely just the paranoid conspiracy theorist in me tho, in fact, I am 90% sure that's the case.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

Watching the current MTGO Championship, I have to wonder if Standard implodes rather sooner than later. Considering the entire metagame is Twin combo, Mardu Vehicles and BG Aggro in roughly equal parts (according to tournament data) basically demands another round of bans next Monday, further shaking the format.

I also don't think that their overzealous focus on Standard is going to sell more packs. The overexposure to the format only gets people bored with it faster, not to mention it increases the speed the format is solved.

We're living in rather interesting (or boring, if you play Standard) times.

Looks like its time for WotC to do some firing.

[Barook]

I have a hunch we'll prolly see bans in modern as well (if there are bans in standard, or bans at all), basically every requested reprint for the past 3 years (damnation, snap, lily, enemy fetches, cavern) plus Goyf and other reprints, it's pretty much easier to name staples they didn't reprint (Karn and Grove come to mind as the two big ones). If there was a ban tomorrow, there is a set ready to pump a bunch of fetches and staples into the market in case of a banning to replace whatever it is that is to be banned.

Likely just the paranoid conspiracy theorist in me tho, in fact, I am 90% sure that's the case.
The change of the B&R schedule was merely a knee-jerk reaction to player attendance dropping like flies. It would be a mere coincidence if anything gets banned in Modern next week.

[Lemnear]

If WotC will ban some stuff AGAIN, the game is going full YuGiOh with the cycle of "print format warping stuff to sell packs, let the cards wreck the format for 8 weeks, ban the cards and promote the next format warping cards they'll print in the upcoming set"

[s&s]

I don't understand people playing standard. That is all. :)

[Darkenslight]

I don't understand people playing standard. That is all. :)

I'd rather play Commander at FNM, if I'm honest. That's why I have four decks complete, another three building, and I need to buy around $500 in cards for the seventh.

Or I can just buy Burn for Legacy. :)

[Barook]

I don't understand people playing standard. That is all. :)
IIRC from surveys, the main reason is tournament support. Certainly not because Standard is a deep, strategic format. :wink: Take away tournament support and it will die like a bitch. That could be one of the main reasons why WotC is pushing Standard so hard, because in their logic, more Standard tournaments = more Standard players = more $$$.


If WotC will ban some stuff AGAIN, the game is going full YuGiOh with the cycle of "print format warping stuff to sell packs, let the cards wreck the format for 8 weeks, ban the cards and promote the next format warping cards they'll print in the upcoming set"
That's just hyperbole. It was never the goal of WotC to go full YuGiOh, it's more of a side-effect of piss-poor R&D. If they had printed proper answers in time, those problems wouldn't exist.

[Claymore]

Watching the current MTGO Championship, I have to wonder if Standard implodes rather sooner than later. Considering the entire metagame is Twin combo, Mardu Vehicles and BG Aggro in roughly equal parts (according to tournament data) basically demands another round of bans next Monday, further shaking the format.

I also don't think that their overzealous focus on Standard is going to sell more packs. The overexposure to the format only gets people bored with it faster, not to mention it increases the speed the format is solved.

We're living in rather interesting (or boring, if you play Standard) times.

Isn't standard supposed to be a super simple format though? An equally portioned rock/paper/scissors format seems like the goal for Wizards. Assuming the matchups line up like that.

[Dice_Box]

I have a question and this may not be the best place to ask, but it's food for thought perhaps.

Why is it we hate Standard and yet (some) seem to love 93/94? It's basically the same bloody thing. A limited and solvable format. Sure, one is more complex than there other, even if the creatures are weaker, but all the same issues that we argue are present in Standard exist on Old School.

[H]

That's just hyperbole. It was never the goal of WotC to go full YuGiOh, it's more of a side-effect of piss-poor R&D. If they had printed proper answers in time, those problems wouldn't exist.

Well, I think it is probable that the bans had more to do with the way people's bitching about, and them capitulating on, the rotation schedule than it does with anything else. They didn't plan to have this Standard environment and it shows, they just have to wait for Q4 '17 to get back on track..

Not that I am really defending R&D's competence, given how they missed the whole Saheeli-Cat interaction, but I don't think we'll be seeing another Standard ban for a long time.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Why is it we hate Standard and yet (some) seem to love 93/94?
Equal parts nostalgia and elitism. :rolleyes:

[s&s]

Isn't standard supposed to be a super simple format though? An equally portioned rock/paper/scissors format seems like the goal for Wizards.

Too bad their R&D keeps making it into rock/paper/bazooka/fighter jet.

[jrsthethird]

I have a question and this may not be the best place to ask, but it's food for thought perhaps.

Why is it we hate Standard and yet (some) seem to love 93/94? It's basically the same bloody thing. A limited and solvable format. Sure, one is more complex than there other, even if the creatures are weaker, but all the same issues that we argue are present in Standard exist on Old School.

Nostalgia sustains Old School, tournament support and competitive drive drive Standard.

[Barook]

Well, I think it is probable that the bans had more to do with the way people's bitching about, and them capitulating on, the rotation schedule than it does with anything else. They didn't plan to have this Standard environment and it shows, they just have to wait for Q4 '17 to get back on track..

Not that I am really defending R&D's competence, given how they missed the whole Saheeli-Cat interaction, but I don't think we'll be seeing another Standard ban for a long time.
The increased rotation schedule is probably more akin to what Lemnear described. Best example would be the fetchland/dual Standard they were willing to make because it would only last half a year. There definitely was a push towards more powerful cards due to shorter rotation times, but it doesn't explain the current fuck-ups.

Aside from Reflector Mage, which would have rotated in April, both Smuggler's Copter and Memerakul would have been in Standard for quite a while. Not to mention the dumb shit like Twin combo or Heart of Kiran as replacement for Copter. All of those would have plagued Standard for many more months even under the 1.5 year rotation schedule.


Equal parts nostalgia and elitism. :rolleyes:
This - nostalgia and dickwaving. As somebody who started with Tempest, I simply don't care about it since I lack the nostalgia goggles.

[H]

The increased rotation schedule is probably more akin to what Lemnear described. Best example would be the fetchland/dual Standard they were willing to make because it would only last half a year. There definitely was a push towards more powerful cards due to shorter rotation times, but it doesn't explain the current fuck-ups.

Aside from Reflector Mage, which would have rotated in April, both Smuggler's Copter and Memerakul would have been in Standard for quite a while. Not to mention the dumb shit like Twin combo or Heart of Kiran as replacement for Copter. All of those would have plagued Standard for many more months even under the 1.5 year rotation schedule.

Well, I didn't mean that Copter and Emmy weren't mistakes, but rather the bans was necessitated by the botched rotation change. A larger card pool doesn't really mean more things are viable, a priori, consider Vintage, for example.

Then again, I haven't played Standard since 2011, so maybe I'm wrong and rotation or not they all get banned (well not the Mage, it would have just rotated).

[Barook]

Well, I didn't mean that Copter and Emmy weren't mistakes, but rather the bans was necessitated by the botched rotation change.
The bans were necessary because player attendance dropped to a degree that Wizards did panic. As I said before, even with the faster rotation around, Standard couldn't handle another 9 months of Emrakul or 15 months of Copter. Blaming the rotation completely misses the point, especially when they just introduced another set of cards that might get the axe (Guardian/Heart of Kiran). Wizards even admitted they were too laid back in the past when it came to Standard bans. Collected Company might have been banned under the current system.

On a different note:
People love to bitch about Modern being "unhealty right now", but was there ever a state when it actually was "healty"?

[Kage]

People love to bitch about Modern being "unhealty right now", but was there ever a state when it actually was "healty"?

I'm far from a modern expert, but if you look at a format where a 52-card deck with 1-mana Demonic Tutors and 1G 6/7s and 1-mana 8/8s (Death's Shadow Zoo) are fine, yet Counterspell and Opt are considered too powerful, you might get the idea why the metagame is messed up.

[ESG]

I have a question and this may not be the best place to ask, but it's food for thought perhaps.

Why is it we hate Standard and yet (some) seem to love 93/94? It's basically the same bloody thing. A limited and solvable format. Sure, one is more complex than there other, even if the creatures are weaker, but all the same issues that we argue are present in Standard exist on Old School.

Because the aesthetics and flavor were amazing then and are dreadful now. Old borders > new borders. Handpainted art and unrestrained creative style > digital art and boring color palettes. Also, this mimickry of the Justice League with the Gatewatch is stupid and at odds with what made Magic cool in the beginning. Old School is wonderful because it relives the purity of game's early days. People aren't playing Old School because they're trying to figure out how to break the format.

Edit: Also, to give some credit to Standard, I do like the various Copy Cat decks and find them appealing. The general situation for me is that there's only so much time I have for Magic, and I'm going to spend it on Legacy and Cube -- the formats with the most strategic depth -- or on Old School, which I do for nostalgia.

[Barook]

I'm far from a modern expert, but if you look at a format where a 52-card deck with 1-mana Demonic Tutors and 1G 6/7s and 1-mana 8/8s (Death's Shadow Zoo) are fine, yet Counterspell and Opt are considered too powerful, you might get the idea why the metagame is messed up.
Gitaxian Probe is a dumb card. I remember the thread where it turned out that the majority of the Source users hate that card with a passion.

As for the 52 card deck, they did their part by banning Probe. Sure, they still have Bauble and Wraith, but I wouldn't be suprised if those bite the dust sooner or later, too, alongside SSG (and Mox Opal).

Death's Shadow also wouldn't be a problem if they had StP in the format to manhandle it.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

the period from the pod banning up until the twin ban is considered a high point and well liked.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Death's Shadow also wouldn't be a problem if they had StP in the format to manhandle it.
Can you explain? Isn't Path to Exile the same thing?

[nedleeds]

you 2 for 1 two deaths shadow with plow. one reason it is wretched in eternal. path you are -1 'card' in most cases.

[Dice_Box]

Can you explain? Isn't Path to Exile the same thing?No. You swords one Shadow, all others die too. Also, in formats where mana costs are low and Counterspells make you pay mana, ramping someone is a much bigger cost than giving them life almost all the time.

[Ace/Homebrew]

you 2 for 1 two deaths shadow with plow. one reason it is wretched in eternal. path you are -1 'card' in most cases.
Ahhhh! Right, because of the words on the card.
I should read those... :wink:

[rlesko]

I don't see the justification for banning Bauble and Wraith...probe was a different story. It clearly takes a dedication from your deck to fuel delirium fast and grave hate is very effective against it so I'm not sure what else you could ask for from a mechanic (powerful in the right deck, but susceptible to commonly played hate). Bauble needs a reprint for sure but isn't doing anything inherently broken or enabling something broken.

[phonics]

I have a question and this may not be the best place to ask, but it's food for thought perhaps.

Why is it we hate Standard and yet (some) seem to love 93/94? It's basically the same bloody thing. A limited and solvable format. Sure, one is more complex than there other, even if the creatures are weaker, but all the same issues that we argue are present in Standard exist on Old School.

I think the big difference is that old school has some super strong cards, but in the end it is about gaining incremental advantages to get a win, I dont really follow the format, but iirc Jayemdae tome is playable and quite good, which is a testament to how grindy games get. Creatures and combos are so strong in newer sets that they will just end the game without a prompt answer and often that means games just turn into a contest of who draws more answers.

[Lord Seth]

I don't understand people playing standard. That is all. :)
Easiest format to enter, is dynamic rather than static like Legacy (which can be either good or bad depending on your perspective), gets the most support, and, until recently, you could feel pretty safe that your deck choice wouldn't suddenly get a ban.

Though all Legacy players should be extremely happy that Standard is the major cash cow, because the rotation allows them to avoid too great a level of power creep which allows Legacy to be Legacy. If Legacy was the dominant format they were pushing, they'd have to come up with reasons to keep you getting the new packs so they'd be constantly banning and having major cases of power creep to the point it'd basically end up switching around constantly like Standard anyway.


On a different note:
People love to bitch about Modern being "unhealty right now", but was there ever a state when it actually was "healty"?
I think the time period between Deathrite Shaman's banning and Treasure Cruise's printing was pretty decent.

[Ace/Homebrew]

There are plenty of reasons for Standard to appeal to a player. They don't appeal to me, but neither does draft. I'm a huge fan of EDH, but a good portion of Sourcers scoff at the format.

Because of rotation, Standard is the format where you are most able to create the deck that dominates the new cycle, or find the sleeper cards that prey on the top decks. The reality is that those decks are created by teams of professionals, but that doesn't weaken the appeal of dreamers who think they can do it themselves.

The true strength of this game is its ability to appeal to a wider audience than most games allow. I often compare Magic cards to playing cards. You can enjoy playing cards in dozens of ways from War to Go Fish to Poker to Gin Rummy. Magic adds in trading, collecting, and deck-building in addition to all of its formats.

I'll admit it sucks to see your favorite aspect of the game get pushed aside for other aspects you don't like. But the game will persist long after the doom-sayers lose interest.

[Megadeus]

I have a question and this may not be the best place to ask, but it's food for thought perhaps.

Why is it we hate Standard and yet (some) seem to love 93/94? It's basically the same bloody thing. A limited and solvable format. Sure, one is more complex than there other, even if the creatures are weaker, but all the same issues that we argue are present in Standard exist on Old School.

Standard is actually more complex than Old school from everything I've seen. I built an old school deck and thought it might be sweet, then I played a few games and realized why people only play it a couple times a year. Then again, neither of us were playing blue cards so maybe that had something to do with it, but if I wanted to play blue to win, I'd just continue playing legacy

[Teluin]

I have a question and this may not be the best place to ask, but it's food for thought perhaps.

Why is it we hate Standard and yet (some) seem to love 93/94? It's basically the same bloody thing. A limited and solvable format. Sure, one is more complex than there other, even if the creatures are weaker, but all the same issues that we argue are present in Standard exist on Old School.

As others have mentioned, nostalgia is certainly a factor. The elitism part is a bit misunderstood, and certainly not as prevalent in the NA scene. Of course, the old frames and art being superior helps and the statement of incremental advantage(s) to win certainly rings true.

To answer your question - I adore the format as each colour/strategy has 'broken' cards, and the aggro/combo/control/midrange balance was real during that period of the game. I do not consider The Deck as the example of solving the format because aggro decks can and do destroy it. While it doesn't rotate cards, the difference in power level amongst the 'decent' cards (aka non-broken, non-crap) isn't as wide as they seem to be now. There is a higher number of playable cards tailored to certain styles and there are a number of different colour and playstyle combinations that are legitimately viable. I've read people claiming the # of legitimate Legacy decks to be 40+ (which is debatable) - Old School truly does and players continue to innovate. See: http://www.wak-wak.se/9394/archetypes.

[Zombie]

The format I'd really like to "old school"-ify is TS-Lor Standard. That was one damn good format.

[Darkenslight]

The format I'd really like to "old school"-ify is TS-Lor Standard. That was one damn good format.

I prefer RAV-TSP over Lorwyn, but that's because of the Faeries.

The format had a wide range of weird and good decks, varying from White Weenie and Burn, to hard UB Control, through the vagaries of combo (Warp World springs to mind) and out to GW and UW Flash (as in, instant-speed, not Flash.)

That was a great Standard format.

[Zombie]

I prefer RAV-TSP over Lorwyn, but that's because of the Faeries.

The format had a wide range of weird and good decks, varying from White Weenie and Burn, to hard UB Control, through the vagaries of combo (Warp World springs to mind) and out to GW and UW Flash (as in, instant-speed, not Flash.)

That was a great Standard format.

I just like playing Lark-Blink too much, at least if we have damage on the stack. Blink <3

[Stan]

The format I'd really like to "old school"-ify is TS-Lor Standard. That was one damn good format.

Something like 'make your own standard' would be fun to play.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Something like 'make your own standard' would be fun to play.

Wouldn't that be the most hellish of all nightmares to try to figure out what is legal? Even if you make your own CYO (choose your own) Standard deck, it'd be such a bitch to catch an opponent playing a card that isn't in their CYO Standard deck. Deck checks and the like would be so hard to do.

[Barook]

Wouldn't that be the most hellish of all nightmares to try to figure out what is legal? Even if you make your own CYO (choose your own) Standard deck, it'd be such a bitch to catch an opponent playing a card that isn't in their CYO Standard deck. Deck checks and the like would be so hard to do.
It would probably work better on MTGO were you could enforce the entire thing. But then again, it's that much of a terrible program that Gleemox was legal for several weeks recently.

[morgan_coke]

"Choose your Own Standard" was an MTGO format. For like, two years. It was cool in concept but complete garbage in practice because everyone would find random combos from different blocks and then just go to town with them and there were almost never decent answers.

Really a lot of the same problems Tribal has had where it's supposed to be this fun/friendly good times format but if you make it competitive combo decks that break the very idea of the game you're supposed to be playing in half are clearly the best things around because the deckbuilding restrictions preclude being able to beat the combo decks.

tl;dr, it's been done, it didn't work

[Megadeus]

I just want to make a bitching Seance deck in Build Your Own Standard.

[Nestalim]

the period from the pod banning up until the twin ban is considered a high point and well liked.

It was pretty oppressed by Bloom Titan.

I believe that the ban after DrS was a good period, until they messed up with Rhino/TC/Dig.

[H]

Wouldn't that be the most hellish of all nightmares to try to figure out what is legal? Even if you make your own CYO (choose your own) Standard deck, it'd be such a bitch to catch an opponent playing a card that isn't in their CYO Standard deck. Deck checks and the like would be so hard to do.

When I first heard of it, I thought CYOS was something where everyone agrees to which sets would be in, then builds a deck from that pool. So you could pick Revised-Mirage-Tempest and then everyone is restricted to those sets (blocks). It seemed like a neat spin on Old School Magic.

Then I found out what it really is and immediately was disinterested.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

It was pretty oppressed by Bloom Titan.

I believe that the ban after DrS was a good period, until they messed up with Rhino/TC/Dig.

Put up less results than you think and that doesn't really matter when the community seems to remember it fondly

[Nestalim]

Put up less results than you think and that doesn't really matter when the community seems to remember it fondly

This thing won one WMCQ and one RPTQ in my country, and was doing pretty decent in any local tournament.

It was not a GP killer for sure, but still was oppressive. I lost of good number of games agains't it on GP trials, Super series, etc.

But sure it was more a boogeyman than anything else.

[hymnyou]

The format is more deep than people take it for, because it takes time to learn the format and cardpool. if you're deep into it there's some cool stuff to innovate still, I have lists. But there are only so many of us and so much time available. Picking up a deck or two and jamming some rando games or reading a article or two on the format isn't going to give you much to run on for analysis. But still can be fun and totally worth the time.

I can only speak for myself, but here's my take. The power of the cards isn't even remotely close to standard and I enjoy the level of power it has, yet being not as crazy as vintage. Stack damage, mana burn, chaos orb....It offers something else. Strip mine, Loa, p9, ring, these and many many other cards are nothing you will see in standard. Cards that they wouldn't consider designing now or reprint into standard, fun. 93/94 is magic in a contained design, the Creators baby.... it plays like a very advanced board game. This is where they can be considered most alike because they are designed in a contained space vs the kitchen sink approach other formats have.93/94 contains all the fundamentals of the game, in turn the building blocks of magic. Standard is much more limited and designed to work a certain way, with a spoonfed shit storyline. 93/94 offers more imagination and lines due to card uniqueness 93/94 offers. The art is very rare in general, even hard to find similar art references in old d&d books. I like art and I'm not into Cg photoshopped 3-d models from overseas that belong in video games, standard art is dime a dozen if you know the field. To add to all of this you get to play with people of a certain age and lifestyle, which I suppose you get with standard too but it's not for me at all. Lastly, value- and I'll just leave it at that.

Comparing a casual format mainly played in bars to a competitive grinder format for teens should be your starting point.

[CutthroatCasual]

If Legacy was the dominant format they were pushing, they'd have to come up with reasons to keep you getting the new packs so they'd be constantly banning and having major cases of power creep to the point it'd basically end up switching around constantly like Standard anyway.

Which is why I'm okay with not having WotC heavily increasing Legacy support e.g. making the format cheaper to get into.

[Chatto]

Which is why I'm okay with not having WotC heavily increasing Legacy support e.g. making the format cheaper to get into.


But if WotC keeps on reprinting certain staples, people will try to make the switch to Legacy. Demand on other staples (Duals etc etc) will increase, and those staples (especially cards on the RL) will double or triple or whatever in price... In the end Legacy will be not be so easily accesible

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

This thing won one WMCQ and one RPTQ in my country, and was doing pretty decent in any local tournament.

It was not a GP killer for sure, but still was oppressive. I lost of good number of games agains't it on GP trials, Super series, etc.

But sure it was more a boogeyman than anything else.

Every format has a boogeyman, the format did seem fairly diverse and healthy regardless. Yeah you had the feel bads of turn 2/3 Prime Time, but you also had Twin forcing Bloom-Titan and other decks to play a bit more honestly, and you could actually play fair magic without feeling like a chump.

[rlesko]

But if WotC keeps on reprinting certain staples, people will try to make the switch to Legacy. Demand on other staples (Duals etc etc) will increase, and those staples (especially cards on the RL) will double or triple or whatever in price... In the end Legacy will be not be so easily accesible

But the non reserved cards will presumably reduce in price, cancelling out the rise in reserved list cards...at the end of the day the barrier of entry will generally remain the same.

[Lemnear]

But the non reserved cards will presumably reduce in price, cancelling out the rise in reserved list cards...at the end of the day the barrier of entry will generally remain the same.

Deck prices rise. Its a fact

[CutthroatCasual]

But if WotC keeps on reprinting certain staples, people will try to make the switch to Legacy. Demand on other staples (Duals etc etc) will increase, and those staples (especially cards on the RL) will double or triple or whatever in price... In the end Legacy will be not be so easily accesible

Except they don't rise in a 1:1 ratio, and the rise isn't sustained. For example, Alliances FoW was about $80 pre-announcement. Volcanic spiked from ≤$250 to around $280-290 pre-EMA-post-announcement. Volc is now back down to its pre-announcement price, and Alliances FoW is around $60.


Deck prices rise. Its a fact

Yes but only temporarily. As mentioned above, dual prices have already fallen back down to what they were pre-EMA spike and the reprinted EMA cards are cheaper than they were pre-reprint.

[Barook]

Except they don't rise in a 1:1 ratio, and the rise isn't sustained. For example, Alliances FoW was about $80 pre-announcement. Volcanic spiked from ≤$250 to around $280-290 pre-EMA-post-announcement. Volc is now back down to its pre-announcement price, and Alliances FoW is around $60.

Yes but only temporarily. As mentioned above, dual prices have already fallen back down to what they were pre-EMA spike and the reprinted EMA cards are cheaper than they were pre-reprint.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Revised+Edition/Volcanic+Island#paper

Not really. It still seems ~40$ expensive than before the annoucement, despite slowly dropping off.

If prices rise, it's mainly due to random buyouts from hoarders in combination with price memory. With the total number of players stagnating, it seems unlikely that there's that much increasing demand to justify price increases.

[ESG]

But if WotC keeps on reprinting certain staples, people will try to make the switch to Legacy. Demand on other staples (Duals etc etc) will increase, and those staples (especially cards on the RL) will double or triple or whatever in price... In the end Legacy will be not be so easily accesible

This is a fair point, but no one knows when "the end" will happen. People have been wringing their hands about Legacy for at least seven years now. I've been reading "Legacy is dying" claims for that long. It's surreal. Prices have increased, but the player base hasn't dropped off. I want to remind everyone that this fear of Legacy being accessible has been replayed for years. How about this post, the first from the Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread, from January 2010:


Wasteland has just doubled its price in the last month. Star City is selling it for $25. Even Troll and Toad is offering this tempest rare land for $20. This cards, if I am not committing a mistake, closed the year 2009 in a healthy 10 dollars per each. Mox Diamond was about $28 on October or so. I selled four of them for a hundred bucks just to find out that today, stores are willing to sell them for no less than $40.

My advice is always to play Legacy. For most people who want to play, there are ways to get into the format, even today when prices are higher than they were seven years ago. To me, complaining about accessibility is not useful at all.

[Chatto]

But the non reserved cards will presumably reduce in price, cancelling out the rise in reserved list cards...at the end of the day the barrier of entry will generally remain the same.

True, to a certain extent, except what do you do with those cards if the price of one RL-card is the same as two times all the staples you bought in recent years?


This is a fair point, but no one knows when "the end" will happen. People have been wringing their hands about Legacy for at least seven years now. I've been reading "Legacy is dying" claims for that long. It's surreal. Prices have increased, but the player base hasn't dropped off. I want to remind everyone that this fear of Legacy being accessible has been replayed for years. How about this post, the first from the Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread, from January 2010:



My advice is always to play Legacy. For most people who want to play, there are ways to get into the format, even today when prices are higher than they were seven years ago. To me, complaining about accessibility is not useful at all.

Also true, but in recent years all non-RL cards have been reprinted. It's a bit different than say seven-ten years ago. I personally am not complaining at all, simply because I already own enough cards to make different decks.

[CutthroatCasual]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Revised+Edition/Volcanic+Island#paper

Not really. It still seems ~40$ expensive than before the annoucement, despite slowly dropping off.

If prices rise, it's mainly due to random buyouts from hoarders in combination with price memory. With the total number of players stagnating, it seems unlikely that there's that much increasing demand to justify price increases.

Yes really. I prefer to use a graph that doesn't only report the average price of cards for sale (click on "low") (http://www.mtgstocks.com/cards/15728), when in reality cards are exchanging hands off these main sites (i.e. Facebook HEG) for far less. In addition, look at TCGP's market price (http://shop.tcgplayer.com/magic/revised-edition/volcanic-island), which is the average price at which cards are actually being sold for on that site (their graph used to be better, but trust me when I say that pre-EMA Volcs were exchanging hands for around $250 tops, more like $230ish).

[Begle1]

their graph used to be better

No kidding, whatever happened to the sweet, easy-to-use TCGPlayer graphs?

[Lord Seth]

No kidding, whatever happened to the sweet, easy-to-use TCGPlayer graphs?
Much like their previous and much better deck search engine, I think it got removed when they redesigned the site.

[Lord Seth]

Wizards of the Coast doesn't release sales data, but ICv2's new Internal Correspondence (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/206927/ICv2s-Internal-Correspondence-91?src=newest) came out and may be of interest. The version on the website lacks some of the more detailed information (which is available by purchase), namely that both suppliers and retailers report that Magic sales for them are a little down compared to the previous year, though it also does note that this might not equal a drop on WOTC's end due to there being more places to buy the game.

Interestingly, the Pokemon TCG is absolutely exploding right now, outselling Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh combined in mass market retailers and finally taking the #2 spot in game stores from Yu-Gi-Oh.

[Barook]

Wizards of the Coast doesn't release sales data, but ICv2's new Internal Correspondence (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/206927/ICv2s-Internal-Correspondence-91?src=newest) came out and may be of interest. The version on the website lacks some of the more detailed information (which is available by purchase), namely that both suppliers and retailers report that Magic sales for them are a little down compared to the previous year, though it also does note that this might not equal a drop on WOTC's end due to there being more places to buy the game.

Interestingly, the Pokemon TCG is absolutely exploding right now, outselling Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh combined in mass market retailers and finally taking the #2 spot in game stores from Yu-Gi-Oh.
That's pretty interesting. No wonder that they're panicking. Are sales per set down or total sales down, considering they had an additional product (Conspiracy 2) squeezed in last year?

But then again, they reap what they sowed.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Interestingly, the Pokemon TCG is absolutely exploding right now, outselling Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh combined in mass market retailers and finally taking the #2 spot in game stores from Yu-Gi-Oh.

Huh, I wonder if there's a lesson WotC can learn from Pokemon's huge success. It's no doubt that Pokemon Go increased the franchise popularity greatly, it's almost as if having a good digital environment would draw in consumers to your paper game as well...

Oh wait, I think I've got it! Magic Augmented Reality, a phone game where you can walk around in the wild and meet Jace and the Jacetice League IRL.

[Megadeus]

Pokemon still having games come out on handheld along with a strong brand definitely benefits them.

[MaximumC]

Oh wait, I think I've got it! Magic Augmented Reality, a phone game where you can walk around in the wild and meet Jace and the Jacetice League IRL.

We already know what that looks like.

It is not pretty.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwie0py4-NjSAhVih1QKHZTyBPAQyCkIHDAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DKZ04mfAY2BU&usg=AFQjCNG2gtdzrTPEPVP-q7pqf7asJ7w9ng&sig2=qbHKk3ugwxfcTi0NIzkWZA&bvm=bv.149397726,d.cGw

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Pokémon throws shit at you (their fatpacks comes with sleeves, flip coins, I think dice) and makes it super easy to get into the digital game, also their foils are cool.

It's like they actually want you to spend money on their game

[TsumiBand]

Huh, I wonder if there's a lesson WotC can learn from Pokemon's huge success. It's no doubt that Pokemon Go increased the franchise popularity greatly, it's almost as if having a good digital environment would draw in consumers to your paper game as well...

Oh wait, I think I've got it! Magic Augmented Reality, a phone game where you can walk around in the wild and meet Jace and the Jacetice League IRL.

They could call it Magic: The Gothering

[Claymore]

Magic Go! Head outside and find booster packs. Throw mana at the booster pack to capture it! Unlock rare and powerful Planewalkers, then battle Planeswalkers in local Planesgyms to be the best!

Use the power of friendship to keep your own Jacetice League on top!

[Barook]

Magic Go! Head outside and find booster packs. Throw mana at the booster pack to capture it! Unlock rare and powerful Planewalkers, then battle Planeswalkers in local Planesgyms to be the best!

Use the power of friendship to keep your own Jacetice League on top!
You obviously explore beautiful landscapes to tap them for mana.

[Lord Seth]

That's pretty interesting. No wonder that they're panicking. Are sales per set down or total sales down, considering they had an additional product (Conspiracy 2) squeezed in last year?Hrm, it didn't really say. Just that a lot of guys say they were disappointed by Magic sales this year compared to the last.

I should note that this is very different from sales being outright bad; one distributor commented "I would not be complaining about the sales if it were anything other than Magic." And as previously stated, it's not clear if this is actually a decrease in sales for Wizards of the Coast in total. Individual stores and individual distributors may be down a little, but there are more places to buy it so it could still be a year of growth for Magic when everything is added together.

[whienot]

They could call it Magic: The Gothering

I'd prefer ShandalAR.

[MD.Ghost]

Sorry guys, was really busy the last months thanks to housebuilding - but WotC overall already started to gather informations from the community, the biggest issue seems that they (see our discussion here) aren't able to rebuild MTGO (yet). At my freetime i write some articles for the german marketing agency. Last year me and other were interviewed about "Media Perceptions Magic". I only knew about some answers from italy. But we shared the same view, that WotC digital products aren't good enough.

According to my opinion WotC needs to address three points:
develop a cross plattform app (as lemnear pointed out, you can't even play the casual "duels" on android(!) or PS4), massiv decrease to buy into competitive MTGO (i feel sorry for players that need to invest several hundreds or thousands to get digital(!) cards), graphic/visual rework of MTGO (any "competitive" mobile card game looks better... even the casual "magic duels" game looks better than MTGO)

At least i can say, the agency send all the feedback to WotC/Hasbro.

[jandax]

We already know what that looks like.

It is not pretty.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwie0py4-NjSAhVih1QKHZTyBPAQyCkIHDAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DKZ04mfAY2BU&usg=AFQjCNG2gtdzrTPEPVP-q7pqf7asJ7w9ng&sig2=qbHKk3ugwxfcTi0NIzkWZA&bvm=bv.149397726,d.cGw

Had a legit fear of getting rickrolled, there


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Barook]

An interesting tidbit found by Julian:

https://twitter.com/itsJulian23/status/844693666090422272

The European MKM series isn't getting sanctioned so far because it doesn't have enough Standard and Limited for Wizards' taste.

Just what the flying fuck? :eyebrow:

[Julian23]

One should add that it already has a T2 main event. It's just not very well-attended. Why would it? There's plenty of GPs to choose from.

[Ronald Deuce]

Pokémon throws shit at you (their fatpacks comes with sleeves, flip coins, I think dice) and makes it super easy to get into the digital game, also their foils are cool.

It's like they actually want you to spend money on their game

They could've just put more awesome cards that are hard to come by into Eternal Masters instead of abominable rares. I probably spent $36 minimum on Rorix Bladewings, and I had playsets of everything else I pulled that would be worth pulling.

This is why I buy packs about three times a year.

[Dice_Box]

You buy packs? I found your problem.

[s&s]

An interesting tidbit found by Julian:

https://twitter.com/itsJulian23/status/844693666090422272

The European MKM series isn't getting sanctioned so far because it doesn't have enough Standard and Limited for Wizards' taste.

Just what the flying fuck? :eyebrow:

This is just WOTC saying "you suspected we are idiots, we'll prove it for you"

Its especially hilarious when you consider MKM offers tournament organizers prize support and smaller stuff (pens, notebooks, banners, ..) just for having MKM publicity at the event. Iirc its about 1€ of support / player which they give out pretty easily.

Well played WOTC.

[Ronald Deuce]

You buy packs? I found your problem.

The cards have to come from somewhere, though. If Wizards wanted people to buy more of their stuff, improving the quality of the stuff would go a long way.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

You buy packs? I found your problem.

If everyone held this view, the game you're so obsessed with would die

[Dice_Box]

I will let my local store open the packs and I buy the singles I need. Win win. Opening packs for any reason that doesn't include a draft, a sealed deck or a store inventory is a waste in my opinion.

[resum]

If everyone held this view, the game you're so obsessed with would die

i buy lots of packs. just normally three or six at a time

[Barook]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8020zhXkAAd7gX.jpg

Thank God!

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I like all the acknowledgment of mistakes going on. Makes me feel like they are actually learning from stuff like BFZ and standard the last couple years. Shit like the invocations will still happen but admitting to mistakes is a lot more than you can ask from most companies.

[Barook]

I like all the acknowledgment of mistakes going on. Makes me feel like they are actually learning from stuff like BFZ and standard the last couple years. Shit like the invocations will still happen but admitting to mistakes is a lot more than you can ask from most companies.
Now if they had only listened and improved that PoS that is MTGO years ago...

The Gatewatch was a marketing attempt to increase sales, and I dare to say, it failed spectacularly at that, considering the info we have that sales are slightly down last year after years over years of record sales. The combination of unappealing story telling + trying to push the Gatewatch to be the faces of their sets (leading to various balance fuck-ups Standard has to suffer through) did its number on the sales.

[Lord Seth]

Now if they had only listened and improved that PoS that is MTGO years ago...

The Gatewatch was a marketing attempt to increase sales, and I dare to say, it failed spectacularly at that, considering the info we have that sales are slightly down last year after years over years of record sales. The combination of unappealing story telling + trying to push the Gatewatch to be the faces of their sets (leading to various balance fuck-ups Standard has to suffer through) did its number on the sales.I don't think trying to push the Gatewatch to be the faces of their sets really led to the problems with Standard. Yes, Gideon is a pest, but he didn't become as good as he is until recently, and even if he were gone Standard wouldn't be fixed.

The major reason for Standard's woes have been them nerfing answer spells so bad so that there's not really a good way to deal with the pushed threats. I don't think the Gatewatch focus is the reason for the problems with balance. It's a problem in that it's kind of boring to always see them, but that's not really a gameplay thing.

[Stinky-Dinkins]

Opening packs for any reason that doesn't include a draft, a sealed deck or a store inventory is a waste in my opinion.

Well, I guess that depends on whether you consider spending money to have fun a "waste". I still buy packs, but I don't do it expecting great returns on the price I pay for packs or with the expectation of breaking even, I open packs sometimes because I enjoy it. I also "waste" money at the bar, going out to eat, watching a movie, etc., but I enjoy it none the less. I've been playing this game for over 21 years [fucking Christ] and I still like opening packs and sometimes even buying boxes when a new set comes out. I still enjoy it.

[ParkerLewis]

Well, I guess that depends on whether you consider spending money to have fun a "waste". I still buy packs, but I don't do it expecting great returns on the price I pay for packs or with the expectation of breaking even, I open packs sometimes because I enjoy it. I also "waste" money at the bar, going out to eat, watching a movie, etc., but I enjoy it none the less. I've been playing this game for over 21 years [fucking Christ] and I still like opening packs and sometimes even buying boxes when a new set comes out. I still enjoy it.

Curiosity and excitement is a powerful force.

I've been wanting to buy a playset of Lilis for a while now, but spending 250 € on these only four cards bothers me. Yet I was almost willing to buy some MM2017 product (probably one box) because the idea of "pulling all these amazing reprints" (that I don't really want nor need) made it exciting. Well, luckily my brain was always there to keep me from being this financially inefficient (even at 120€ a box I would not really be interested in buying some), but I still spent regular time checking out the spoilers lists etc.

[Barook]

Hasbro Q1 2017 Earnings Management Remarks (http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/HAS/4346657648x0x938743/3A2228A9-EDCC-4326-A400-C9061BEDA5D8/Hasbro_Q1_2017_Earnings_Management_Remarks.pdf)


MAGIC: THE GATHERING revenue was negatively impacted by the timing of new story-lead releases. As outlined at Toy Fair, the second quarter marks the release of the Amonkhet set which is expected to deliver a strong performance for this Franchise Brand.

So Amonkhet being in Q2 is impacting sales. That makes sense. But it totally ignores that Q1 had MM17 as additional set (which should make them tons of money). Looks like Standard being crappy really does its numbers on MtG.

[CutthroatCasual]

Looks like Standard being crappy really does its numbers on MtG.

I doubt WotC makes a lot of money off Masters sets given that the print runs are much more limited than Standard sets (while being "unlimited"). I honestly believe that Masters sets are WotC's gift back to the players. I wouldn't say they lose money on them, but that they don't make nearly as much money off them as many on Reddit claim. They have no obligation to print these sets, and could make much more money off spending time developing more Standard sets which would be more widely distributed while also moving more product.

[resum]

I doubt WotC makes a lot of money off Masters sets given that the print runs are much more limited than Standard sets (while being "unlimited"). I honestly believe that Masters sets are WotC's gift back to the players. I wouldn't say they lose money on them, but that they don't make nearly as much money off them as many on Reddit claim. They have no obligation to print these sets, and could make much more money off spending time developing more Standard sets which would be more widely distributed while also moving more product.

this actually made me think. i've noticed that there's been a pretty big uptick in supplemental sets in the past few years with the masters set, the conspiracy/planechase slot, and the commander slot. in addition to iconic masters or whatever coming this year. I wonder if wotc has actually spread themselves out a little too thin and that's why development for standard has suffered so much.

[Mr.C]

I doubt WotC makes a lot of money off Masters sets given that the print runs are much more limited than Standard sets (while being "unlimited"). I honestly believe that Masters sets are WotC's gift back to the players. I wouldn't say they lose money on them, but that they don't make nearly as much money off them as many on Reddit claim. They have no obligation to print these sets, and could make much more money off spending time developing more Standard sets which would be more widely distributed while also moving more product.

10 bucks per pack, what a gift!

[Smuggo]

this actually made me think. i've noticed that there's been a pretty big uptick in supplemental sets in the past few years with the masters set, the conspiracy/planechase slot, and the commander slot. in addition to iconic masters or whatever coming this year. I wonder if wotc has actually spread themselves out a little too thin and that's why development for standard has suffered so much.

I don't think it's so much standard suffers, I think it just leads to a bit of product overload which results in customer apathy.

If you think about joe average player, for each set maybe he buys a box and a fat pack, so that's about £100 each 4x a year.

Then you've got a couple of supplemental booster sets like conspiracy, MM etc... if they buy a box of each that's another £250ish per year.

Then they might buy a couple of commander precons, maybe a duel deck or two (I never bought a duel deck as they all look awful but I guess some people do). Another £100 there.

So that's about £750 a year and ontop of that you have drafts, pre-release, event entry fees, singles, the costs are really starting to rack up and I think some people are just getting fed up of keeping on coughing up money. They're not going to just buy it all probably so they will spread their spending out more, rather than spending more cash. Each new product comes with a ton of costs, from RnD to artists to distribution to marketing and PoS materials for retailers.

I think they'd be better off releasing less supplemental products. Maybe alternate between conspiracy and masters sets each year, and make EDH precons every couple of years. This reduces their costs and means that their customers don't feel so fatigued with trying to keep up with this never ending stream of products.

[Noctalor]

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18193714_1504308279600786_4038785493617643945_n.jpg?oh=8728a5d69aeaa3239532714b0152e3a5&oe=597B9D35

Leo buyout guys

[Barachai]

Any other cards hit, or is it just Handshake Guy?

[Big McLargeHuge]

True-Name Nemesis has spiked, too. The sad thing is I was going to buy one this Friday when I went to my LGS for $20, now he's at $30.

[Claymore]

I don't think Cradle has spiked, which surprises me. Although I guess it already is $221, but according to MTGStocks that price hasn't changed.

[Barook]

"How do we fix Standard?"
"Let's bring back core sets!"

https://out.reddit.com/t3_67xen4?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fxrxu1ompy4uy.png&token=AQAA_MMCWSZLj-eNaFHXEEaVmjQQtpde1-HQxy6_qYTcaKM0VkuQ&app_name=reddit.com

They really don't know what to do anymore, do they? Their lack of direction and flailing around is worrying.

[Scott]

Booster packs of Corporate Buzzword 2019, that'll get the kids going.

[Tantarus]

I have to say I think things are looking up for legacy, My weekly event had more people tonight then in some time. People seemed over all happy and ready to try new things. I think as the weeks go by people will come to realize this is a great positive change for legacy and might bring back people that grew tired of miracles.

[Crimhead]

I think as the weeks go by people will come to realize this is a great positive change for legacy and might bring back people that grew tired of miracles.

Even people who were not tired of Miracles are probably excited to beart of the format as it shapes up going forward. These are fun times (unless you are scrambling because Miracles was your only deck I guess).

[Megadeus]

We also had more people playing last night than we've had in months.

[danyul]

Ditto on attendance numbers. We had way more players at last night's weekly and plenty of new faces. I'm also hearing that lots of friends of friends are returning to the game. People were playing wild shit too. Last night I matched up against Lantern Control and had to read all his damn cards, most of which I had never seen before.

That's why I play Legacy.

[PirateKing]

That's why I play Legacy.

Amen to that.
My early memories of Legacy were going to big 8+ round tournaments and playing different decks every round. Not just BUG mid compared to BUG aggro, but wildly different avenues of gameplay. I'm not the happiest about the Top ban, but the though of playing more than 4 different decks over 9 rounds is very exciting.

[Claymore]

The local shop hasn't been firing Modern on Wednesdays, so they changed it up to Legacy two weeks ago and got 12 to show, and 10 this week (including the Miracles player who had to switch to Show and Tell). Heard the Legacy FNM has been firing too but not sure on the numbers there.

This change was 1 week pre-ban anyway, but I think we could see better turn out going forward.

[Fox]

(unless you are scrambling because Miracles was your only deck I guess).
I'm not that worried for them, it's what like $300 to turn UWR from miracles to Blade?

Legacy finally has reasonable control decks again, and a lot of color combinations within the Blade and Standstill archetypes.

[rufus]

... the thought of playing more than 4 different decks over 9 rounds is very exciting.

Unless the situation is very special, there are only going to be a small number of top tier decks and the meta will slowly degenerate into some version of rock-paper-scissors.

[Zombie]

Unless the situation is very special, there are only going to be a small number of top tier decks and the meta will slowly degenerate into some version of rock-paper-scissors.

It's still more decksthan Miracles - the rest.

[Brael]

It's still more decksthan Miracles - the rest.

There is always going to be a top deck, I'm convinced actually that something will always be tier 0. Said deck might not always be found, or be popular though.

To give an example, it took 2+ years for Amulet Bloom to gain popularity in Modern, while that entire time it was secretly the best deck in the format by a large margin.

[rufus]

There is always going to be a top deck, I'm convinced actually that something will always be tier 0. Said deck might not always be found, or be popular though.

To give an example, it took 2+ years for Amulet Bloom to gain popularity in Modern, while that entire time it was secretly the best deck in the format by a large margin.

My understanding is that a "tier 0" deck is a deck that is so strong that there are no viable counter decks. For example in this standard, it was turning into "play cat, or lose." Legacy tends not to be like that because the card pool is so big and there's a lot of potent hate available.

[Crimhead]

I'm not that worried for them, it's what like $300 to turn UWR from miracles to Blade?
Still $300 is $300. I know If I suddenly needed $300 to play a good deck, it would be an issue. Not everybody has that on the drop of a hat.

I'm sure there are a couple people for whom this really sucks in the short term. For everyone else it's exciting times.


Legacy finally has reasonable control decks again, and a lot of color combinations within the Blade and Standstill archetypes.
A bit premature, perhaps? It remains to be seen if either of those decks can establish a home in the new meta.

[Brael]

My understanding is that a "tier 0" deck is a deck that is so strong that there are no viable counter decks. For example in this standard, it was turning into "play cat, or lose." Legacy tends not to be like that because the card pool is so big and there's a lot of potent hate available.

Magic still has a lot of variance though. It can take a lot of data to prove a deck is 55/45 against the entire field, and such a deck is tier 0. Wizards hides a bunch of that data, and given the tournament scene for Legacy lately, such information can be hard to come by. The truth is that for the players it's as much about perception as reality, though Wizards to their credit makes data driven ban choices.

[rufus]

Magic still has a lot of variance though. It can take a lot of data to prove a deck is 55/45 against the entire field, and such a deck is tier 0. Wizards hides a bunch of that data, and given the tournament scene for Legacy lately, such information can be hard to come by. The truth is that for the players it's as much about perception as reality, though Wizards to their credit makes data driven ban choices.

I agree that there's a lot of variance. I'm not as sure that WotC makes data driven ban decisions.

[Smuggo]

Why do they hide so much data? Surely it would be better for them and the community if things were much more transparent?

[UnderwaterGuy]

Why do they hide so much data? Surely it would be better for them and the community if things were much more transparent?

They've said that they don't want to contribute too much to formats being "solved" as quicky as possible. They intentionally don't give all the data.

[Barook]

They've said that they don't want to contribute too much to formats being "solved" as quicky as possible. They intentionally don't give all the data.
They're actually forcing people to pull data they don't like. Remember when MTGGoldfish did detailed data analysis of limited environments and constructed formats with MTGO (great stuff) before WotC forced them to stop it, otherwise they would lose support like previews etc.?

[Lemnear]

They're actually forcing people to pull data they don't like. Remember when MTGGoldfish did detailed data analysis of limited environments and constructed formats with MTGO (great stuff) before WotC forced them to stop it, otherwise they would lose support like previews etc.?

Jup. WotC isn't fond of people collecting data to show if a format is solved by sheer performance and percentages. They are obviously interrested in making formats look diverse and wide open. Can't blame them

[Smuggo]

Jup. WotC isn't fond of people collecting data to show if a format is solved by sheer performance and percentages. They are obviously interrested in making formats look diverse and wide open. Can't blame them

You can blame them if they're obfuscating information that shows its not as diverse as they make out, that's just misleading people.

[Barook]

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/35075_SCG-Tour-Season-Two-Announcements.html

Interesting change from SCG - we get 1x Legacy (boo!), 2x Team Constructed (3 player teams, one each for Standard/Modern/Legacy; due to popular request), 2x Standard (!) and 6x Modern (!).

This probably mirrors the general trend that Modern starts to rival or even overtake Standard in terms of popularity.

[thecrav]

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/35075_SCG-Tour-Season-Two-Announcements.html

Interesting change from SCG - we get 1x Legacy (boo!)

And it's on a holiday weekend
At the bombed out costco
the weekend after eternal weekend

[Lord Seth]

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/35075_SCG-Tour-Season-Two-Announcements.html

Interesting change from SCG - we get 1x Legacy (boo!), 2x Team Constructed (3 player teams, one each for Standard/Modern/Legacy; due to popular request), 2x Standard (!) and 6x Modern (!).

This probably mirrors the general trend that Modern starts to rival or even overtake Standard in terms of popularity.And the Midwest gets screwed again... sigh...

[jbone2016]

And the Midwest gets screwed again... sigh...

I've pretty much given up on SCG for anything close. Hell, St. Louis for Legacy was still fine for driving from the Twin Cities.

I'll probably fly out to D.C (haven't been there in like 30 years and I want to be a tourist sometimes, heh.) Also, going to Eternal Weekend (due to one bye and doing well last year)

Other then that, I'm going to rely on some the local stores to keep legacy going. We have a good player base in the Min/Wis area, so I have little fear of it dying out.

[Kanti]

The current state of Magic: Creatures are fucking disgusting. Show anyone from 5 years ago any creature printed nowadays and they would puke. What ever happened to all the overpowered spells?

All the hub-bub about WotC not knowing what they are doing with Standard, with a huge 4 card ban-list. All those cards are creatures. Make non-creature spells great again, please.

MNCSGA!

[Lord Seth]

The current state of Magic: Creatures are fucking disgusting. Show anyone from 5 years ago any creature printed nowadays and they would puke.Any creature? I kind of doubt someone who's been exposed to Delver of Secrets would find a Graceful Cat particularly threatening.

Even if we limit ourselves to the cream of the crop, creatures honestly haven't gotten much better since 5 years ago, which if you'll remember was around the time of Avacyn Restored's release. If they've already been exposed to Tarmogoyf, Delver, Griselbrand, etc. then what new creatures are going to shock them that much? Maybe True-Name Nemesis simply for the absurdity of its design, but that's really it.


What ever happened to all the overpowered spells?If I recall correctly, Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time got banned in Legacy, so that's what happened to them.


All the hub-bub about WotC not knowing what they are doing with Standard, with a huge 4 card ban-list. All those cards are creatures. Make non-creature spells great again, please.But those creatures aren't that great. Look at the cards: Felidar Guardian, Emrakul the Promised End, Smuggler's Copter, and Reflector Mage. Are those among the all-time great creatures in Legacy? No. Do they even really see play? Emrakul and Smuggler's Copter sees a small amount of fringe play, but the other two see zero. Even if we move to the lower power Modern, all four of those cards are fairly fringe.

So the idea that they're some kind of power creep past where we were 5 years ago is obviously pretty false. Take those creatures, then compare them to Delver of Secrets, Griselbrand, Snapcaster Mage, and Thalia Guardian of Thraben, which have all made a big splashy in Legacy and (except for Griselbrand) were highly prominent in Standard.

So, what's the problem with these creatures, if they're not really an improvement over what we had 5 years ago? The big problem with Standard is how awful they've made the answers. Not just in terms of removal, but in terms of general answers. Consider the fact that Grave Birthing is one of the best graveyard hate cards in the Standard where they decided to print Emrakul, the Promised End.

Do you think Emrakul would be as powerful if something like Scrabbling Claws were played? Do you think Smuggler's Copter or CopyCat would've been as powerful as they were if Pithing Needle were around? Reflector Mage (and also CopyCat) would've gotten a lot worse if Torpor Orb or even Hushwing Gryff was legal. But none of those cards are legal.

So the problem really isn't the creatures themselves, which as noted aren't substantially better than what we had 5 years ago. The problem is the general Standard environment. If you look at every previous Standard banning or restriction since the format's reception, almost all of them, at least at the time, were a big force in the larger formats (and possibly got banned there at all). Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, the Affinity cards, Skullclamp, Dream Halls, Lotus Petal, Tolarian Academy, Windfall... you look at those cards, and then you look at Reflector Mage and the contrast is obvious. Even cards banned/restricted in Standard that seem goofy nowadays (like Fork) were at least considered really good in larger formats at the time (Fork also got restricted in Vintage). Not so with these 4 bans.

I know here I'm just saying what I've said repeatedly in other topics and other boards, but that's really what it comes down to. Standard isn't messed up because the creatures are overpowered (granted, CopyCat by itself is pretty innocuous, it's the combo that's the problem--but that combo, which took up something like 40% of the format in Standard, is an utter nonentity in Legacy and isn't seen much at all in Modern), it's because of the weakening of answers to the point those creatures have become an issue due to the general context, which is why cards that would be utterly laughable to ban anywhere else are considered so broken in Standard that they necessitate bans.

[tescrin]

Creatures keep being printed, but to be honest, Seth has it right.

Funny enough, even TNN is 4 years old. Pyro took a *long* time to find a shell IIRC, and really made the splash after Gurmag, but gurmag is only B different than Stalker, and I still find myself vastly prefering stalker. Stalker in turn is the same set as Goyf.

Grisel and DRS are crazy, but that's also back 5 years or so.



I mean, what.. are we gonna talk Siege Rhino? EotGR? HMentor? MMentor? These are all *very* fringe. People whine about not printing good spells, but they still do. Omniscience came from DRS's block IIRC. Past in Flames? Same thing. They've been printing draw 7's, 3-mana time walk, and a few other pretty intense spells that happen to not be *quite* broken; or no one has figured them out yet. But I mean.. just wait. A draw 7, even at sorcery speed, even with "end the turn" is brutal. Someone just has to figure out how to make it relevant.

Fatal Push is a reasonable spell, the Emrakul's Hymn is pretty OK. Wizards is trying to find ways to balance out some pretty good (read as: the best spells in their class) and some of them were pure broken (read as: Terminus.) While I often look at the new sets and thing "boy this is so creature centric, and the spells suck, and boy look at that power-creeped dude"; looking at all the fringe things that didn't break into legacy.. I seem to have been wrong in those judgements.

We can say "boy a 2/3 deathtouch for 1 if you meet some condition!?" and remember that there's been a 2/3 for 1 (multiple for many of us) since before we started. "A 4/3 for 2 if you meet some condition?" we can say similar things for Tempest era, or a 3/3 for 2 with no conditions 10+ years ago. There's been a little creep, but it's honestly if it was by much we would be introducing new dudes as more than 1-ofs or 2-ofs in T1.5 decks.

EDIT: I rarely get a feeling now with out a lot of skepticism like the feeling I got when they spoiled Vengeful Devil. That seemed so broken and creeped; and yet, it's hard to put into casual decks even once you understand it. That's good design. So huge you want to use it, and so specific that it's difficult to extract the raw power it screams it has at you. I think their sets have been poorly designed for awhile, but I also think their "good cards" are dancing a pretty reasonable tightrope.

[Kanti]

Any creature? I kind of doubt someone who's been exposed to Delver of Secrets would find a Graceful Cat particularly threatening.

Even if we limit ourselves to the cream of the crop, creatures honestly haven't gotten much better since 5 years ago, which if you'll remember was around the time of Avacyn Restored's release. If they've already been exposed to Tarmogoyf, Delver, Griselbrand, etc. then what new creatures are going to shock them that much? Maybe True-Name Nemesis simply for the absurdity of its design, but that's really it.

If I recall correctly, Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time got banned in Legacy, so that's what happened to them.

But those creatures aren't that great. Look at the cards: Felidar Guardian, Emrakul the Promised End, Smuggler's Copter, and Reflector Mage. Are those among the all-time great creatures in Legacy? No. Do they even really see play? Emrakul and Smuggler's Copter sees a small amount of fringe play, but the other two see zero. Even if we move to the lower power Modern, all four of those cards are fairly fringe.

So the idea that they're some kind of power creep past where we were 5 years ago is obviously pretty false. Take those creatures, then compare them to Delver of Secrets, Griselbrand, Snapcaster Mage, and Thalia Guardian of Thraben, which have all made a big splashy in Legacy and (except for Griselbrand) were highly prominent in Standard.

So, what's the problem with these creatures, if they're not really an improvement over what we had 5 years ago? The big problem with Standard is how awful they've made the answers. Not just in terms of removal, but in terms of general answers. Consider the fact that Grave Birthing is one of the best graveyard hate cards in the Standard where they decided to print Emrakul, the Promised End.

Do you think Emrakul would be as powerful if something like Scrabbling Claws were played? Do you think Smuggler's Copter or CopyCat would've been as powerful as they were if Pithing Needle were around? Reflector Mage (and also CopyCat) would've gotten a lot worse if Torpor Orb or even Hushwing Gryff was legal. But none of those cards are legal.

So the problem really isn't the creatures themselves, which as noted aren't substantially better than what we had 5 years ago. The problem is the general Standard environment. If you look at every previous Standard banning or restriction since the format's reception, almost all of them, at least at the time, were a big force in the larger formats (and possibly got banned there at all). Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, the Affinity cards, Skullclamp, Dream Halls, Lotus Petal, Tolarian Academy, Windfall... you look at those cards, and then you look at Reflector Mage and the contrast is obvious. Even cards banned/restricted in Standard that seem goofy nowadays (like Fork) were at least considered really good in larger formats at the time (Fork also got restricted in Vintage). Not so with these 4 bans.

I know here I'm just saying what I've said repeatedly in other topics and other boards, but that's really what it comes down to. Standard isn't messed up because the creatures are overpowered (granted, CopyCat by itself is pretty innocuous, it's the combo that's the problem--but that combo, which took up something like 40% of the format in Standard, is an utter nonentity in Legacy and isn't seen much at all in Modern), it's because of the weakening of answers to the point those creatures have become an issue due to the general context, which is why cards that would be utterly laughable to ban anywhere else are considered so broken in Standard that they necessitate bans.

hey sorry my timeline was all messed up. 10 years ago it is, gotta go back to like Goyf days.

[Purple Blood]

Any creature? I kind of doubt someone who's been exposed to Delver of Secrets would find a Graceful Cat particularly threatening.

Even if we limit ourselves to the cream of the crop, creatures honestly haven't gotten much better since 5 years ago, which if you'll remember was around the time of Avacyn Restored's release. If they've already been exposed to Tarmogoyf, Delver, Griselbrand, etc. then what new creatures are going to shock them that much? Maybe True-Name Nemesis simply for the absurdity of its design, but that's really it.

If I recall correctly, Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time got banned in Legacy, so that's what happened to them.

But those creatures aren't that great. Look at the cards: Felidar Guardian, Emrakul the Promised End, Smuggler's Copter, and Reflector Mage. Are those among the all-time great creatures in Legacy? No. Do they even really see play? Emrakul and Smuggler's Copter sees a small amount of fringe play, but the other two see zero. Even if we move to the lower power Modern, all four of those cards are fairly fringe.

So the idea that they're some kind of power creep past where we were 5 years ago is obviously pretty false. Take those creatures, then compare them to Delver of Secrets, Griselbrand, Snapcaster Mage, and Thalia Guardian of Thraben, which have all made a big splashy in Legacy and (except for Griselbrand) were highly prominent in Standard.

So, what's the problem with these creatures, if they're not really an improvement over what we had 5 years ago? The big problem with Standard is how awful they've made the answers. Not just in terms of removal, but in terms of general answers. Consider the fact that Grave Birthing is one of the best graveyard hate cards in the Standard where they decided to print Emrakul, the Promised End.

Do you think Emrakul would be as powerful if something like Scrabbling Claws were played? Do you think Smuggler's Copter or CopyCat would've been as powerful as they were if Pithing Needle were around? Reflector Mage (and also CopyCat) would've gotten a lot worse if Torpor Orb or even Hushwing Gryff was legal. But none of those cards are legal.

So the problem really isn't the creatures themselves, which as noted aren't substantially better than what we had 5 years ago. The problem is the general Standard environment. If you look at every previous Standard banning or restriction since the format's reception, almost all of them, at least at the time, were a big force in the larger formats (and possibly got banned there at all). Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, the Affinity cards, Skullclamp, Dream Halls, Lotus Petal, Tolarian Academy, Windfall... you look at those cards, and then you look at Reflector Mage and the contrast is obvious. Even cards banned/restricted in Standard that seem goofy nowadays (like Fork) were at least considered really good in larger formats at the time (Fork also got restricted in Vintage). Not so with these 4 bans.

I know here I'm just saying what I've said repeatedly in other topics and other boards, but that's really what it comes down to. Standard isn't messed up because the creatures are overpowered (granted, CopyCat by itself is pretty innocuous, it's the combo that's the problem--but that combo, which took up something like 40% of the format in Standard, is an utter nonentity in Legacy and isn't seen much at all in Modern), it's because of the weakening of answers to the point those creatures have become an issue due to the general context, which is why cards that would be utterly laughable to ban anywhere else are considered so broken in Standard that they necessitate bans.

It's not just creature power creep but also it seems like they give all the "cool" abilities to creature ETB triggers rather than making them spells.

I think you're right about answers which is why they need to have a Core Set. They can easily print a baseline level of constructed answers in Core without ruining the limited environment. Which I have to say, Amonkhet drafts have been a blast. So bring back Core and keep the best of both worlds.

[Lord Seth]

There is one other thing worth remembering.

The initial bannings (Copter, Mage, Emrakul) were of cards that, strictly speaking, weren't all that broken, at least not more so than various cards in the last 6 years that never got banned. UW Aggro was the clear best deck (Reflector Mage playing a part in that) and Smuggler's Copter was everywhere... but Standard usually has a clear best deck, UW Aggro wasn't really any worse than things like Monoblack Devotion or UW Delver, and Smuggler's Copter wasn't as omnipresent as Mutavault was during RTR-Theros Standard. A lot of people hated Emrakul, but it's not that uncommon for a particular card to get a lot of hatred (Thragtusk, Bonfire of the Damned, Pack Rat, Siege Rhino). And while Emrakul was powerful and saw a good deal of play, most decks weren't playing her and UW Aggro, again the best deck, wasn't at all.

No, the cards got banned because although in terms of metagame numbers nothing was more out of whack than is often the case in Standard, players just plain didn't like it and were leaving. It didn't start with that metagame either, players didn't take to Collected Company.format in the previous Standard or the fetchland+battleland combo (with not a single bit of hate against the interaction) that made Standard exceedingly expensive and turned it into a bunch of goodstuff decks because you actually had a better manabase in 3 colors than in 2. And you had the more rapid rotation driving people off even more. Granted, people always complain about something during Standard so it's tough to tell at what point the complaints became bigger than normal, but it seemed to me that people really started getting grumpy starting with Khans-Battle.

Of course, there were a number of factors that went into the above issues, but one was lack of answer or suitable hate cards; it didn't necessarily make the banned cards overpowered, but it made them obnoxious enough they were turning people off. Khans-Battle wouldn't have been as irritating if something like Blood Moon or even just Burning Earth was legal, but there was nothing unless you want to count Crumble to Dust. The good news is that Wizards of the Coast seems to have finally understood the fact they needed to have decent answers for the metagame to be any fun, but it'll take a while for them to act on it and it remains to be seen how well they've understood the issues.

[Barook]

The good news is that Wizards of the Coast seems to have finally understood the fact they needed to have decent answers for the metagame to be any fun, but it'll take a while for them to act on it and it remains to be seen how well they've understood the issues.
It's ironic that the current R&D tries to make Magic, a game that lives from interaction, as uninteractive as possible because "getting my stuff destroyed makes be feel bad, wah, wah, wah!". Good cards need good answers, so the metagame can balance itself out. We've already seen what happens if everybody is left to their own devices.

It's also funny how the whole 2-set rotation backfired - hard. Many of the current problems can be traced back to this stupid decision made out of pure greed. Not only did it increase Standard's cost by alot, driving people away, it also lead to fucking stupid design decisions like the whole dual/fetch Standard because appearently it is okay if the format is fucked for half a year until it rotates. Sound logic right there. The same thing lead to the whole pushed cards/nerfed answers Standard is suffering from right now since they planned for rotations to sweep their garbage designs under the rug.

Getting rid of Core sets for more new sets did sound good on paper - who wanted to see the xth reprint of garbage? Reality turned out to be different. They didn't reprint jackshit (aka much needed answers) in the block sets while said sets are filled with garbage throwaway mechanics, with no time to explore the more interesting ones (like e.g. colorless mana).

[Scott]

Good cards need good answers, so the metagame can balance itself out.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa5OBhXz-Q

aaaaaaaaa zavenya

[tescrin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa5OBhXz-Q

aaaaaaaaa zavenya

That may be one of the most interesting vids I've watched in a couple years, and it's 5 minutes..

..and I'm an AI enthusiast/professional

[Zombie]

hey sorry my timeline was all messed up. 10 years ago it is, gotta go back to like Goyf days.

Goyf days brought us Goyf, Venser, Golgari Grave-Troll, Dark Confidant. In Standard itself, Wall of Roots, Riftwing Cloudskate, Loxodon Hierarch, Yosei etc. were pretty great. Lorwyn has the first modern creatures, and I'd say those Standard bannings... do they hold a candle to Reveillark, Mulldrifter, Vendilion Clique, Mistbind Clique, Demigod of Revenge, Cloudthresher, Heritage Druid, Kitchen Finks, Figure of Destiny? Hardly. The answers just suck, unlike back then. Port Rune Snag, Doom Blade, Incinerate, Skred, O-Ring, Wispmare, Ingot Chewer, Wrath, Damnation, Venser, an assortment of other random things and see how long the problems stay as problems.

[gh0st_b1rd]

I still stand by Legacy during the Werebear, Solidarity, Landstill and Goblins days being the best era of Legacy. Suicide Black splash Red was a viable deck!! You could Tog back then too! Angel Stax was less pressured and Angel Stompy was the Temporary Solution analog of the format. You could even make a case that some Shadowmage Infiltrator jank was also quite a viable deck back then too.

[Megadeus]

I still stand by Legacy during the Werebear, Solidarity, Landstill and Goblins days being the best era of Legacy. Suicide Black splash Red was a viable deck!! You could Tog back then too! Angel Stax was less pressured and Angel Stompy was the Temporary Solution analog of the format. You could even make a case that some Shadowmage Infiltrator jank was also quite a viable deck back then too.

I'm about to bring back Tog. Bout to be lit

[Richard Cheese]

I still stand by Legacy during the Werebear, Solidarity, Landstill and Goblins days being the best era of Legacy. Suicide Black splash Red was a viable deck!! You could Tog back then too! Angel Stax was less pressured and Angel Stompy was the Temporary Solution analog of the format. You could even make a case that some Shadowmage Infiltrator jank was also quite a viable deck back then too.

I wonder if the viability of fringe decks has been impacted more by power creep or increased format visibility/player base? It certainly felt like the format started to get more streamlined as the SCG opens got more regular and gained a bigger following. I was also new to the format at that time, so maybe that's just my perception as I learned more about the format.

[Final Fortune]

I wonder if the viability of fringe decks has been impacted more by power creep or increased format visibility/player base? It certainly felt like the format started to get more streamlined as the SCG opens got more regular and gained a bigger following. I was also new to the format at that time, so maybe that's just my perception as I learned more about the format.

I think a lot of people underestimate the impact Tarmogoyf had on the format, that creature single handedly made every tier 2 creature deck unplayable at the time and between it and Miracles power creeping on creatures and removal defined the metagame for what seems like forever now. I mean just look at how good creatures had to be in order to be considered over Tarmogoyf, True Name Nemesis, Stoneforge Mystic, Young Pyromancer, the Delve creatures etc. are all pretty OP compared to Werebear.

[gh0st_b1rd]

Tarmogoyf and CounterTop in tandem actually made me take a break from the format. I got really tired of playing mirror matches in every tournament I attended until SoA and Conflux came out. Even then the burnout had worn down on me by that point.

I would have preferred if Wizards had taken what Eli Kassis suggested to do and just ban multiple pillars at once. If they banned Mana Drain, Mishra's Workshop and Bazaar of Beghdad at the same time back then nothing should stop them from doing that again now-ish.

[TsumiBand]

I still stand by Legacy during the Werebear, Solidarity, Landstill and Goblins days being the best era of Legacy. Suicide Black splash Red was a viable deck!! You could Tog back then too! Angel Stax was less pressured and Angel Stompy was the Temporary Solution analog of the format. You could even make a case that some Shadowmage Infiltrator jank was also quite a viable deck back then too.

Man, yeah. Turn 1 Mother of Runes, turn 2 Ancient Tomb into facedown creature was like woahmg. You could even maindeck Silver Knight against Goblins, whee

[Nicklas]

I think a lot of people underestimate the impact Tarmogoyf had on the format, that creature single handedly made every tier 2 creature deck unplayable at the time [...]

Can't agree more. Tarmogoyf caused such a mess. Awful awful card. Merfolk splashed G to play Tarmogoyf, that's how busted that card was in the format back then.
Tons of cards became unplayable at once. Tried to stick to Quirion Dryad in RG Sligh, because I loved that card...

Everyone who doesn't know by now how much Tarmogoyf changed and shaped Legacy should look up some old decklists.

[Gheizen64]

Honestly a LOT of the bad parts of the format could be sort of answered by either:

a really good fetchland hoser
a really good grave hate card

DRS, Goyfs, Brainstorm, Delve spells, 4c lists with 4 wastelands etc are all a function on how bonkers fetches are. It's not easy to design such a card though. Harsh mentor is deece but still bad.

[colo]

Honestly a LOT of the bad parts of the format could be sort of answered by either:

a really good fetchland hoser
a really good grave hate card

DRS, Goyfs, Brainstorm, Delve spells, 4c lists with 4 wastelands etc are all a function on how bonkers fetches are. It's not easy to design such a card though. Harsh mentor is deece but still bad.

I think both options already exist, near-as-good-as-it-gets-ish. Leonin Arbiter hoses fetchlands much better than merely triggering a Shock to your op's face whenever they fetch. Rest in Peace is the ultimate answer to graveyard-based strategies, the only "problem" with it is that it can't win you the game on its own (and it might be "too slow" against hyper-fast decks like RB Reanimator, but those are coinflips anyway).

I honestly don't see how you'd want to improve on these two cards, without hating both elements (library search/tutoring, even if "only" for lands, and using the graveyard as a resource) out of the metagame pretty much completely.

[Gheizen64]

I think both options already exist, near-as-good-as-it-gets-ish. Leonin Arbiter hoses fetchlands much better than merely triggering a Shock to your op's face whenever they fetch. Rest in Peace is the ultimate answer to graveyard-based strategies, the only "problem" with it is that it can't win you the game on its own (and it might be "too slow" against hyper-fast decks like RB Reanimator, but those are coinflips anyway).

I honestly don't see how you'd want to improve on these two cards, without hating both elements (library search/tutoring, even if "only" for lands, and using the graveyard as a resource) out of the metagame pretty much completely.

Need to be either incidental/more general compared to RiP and arbiter to be not a dead card so often, and possibly less susceptible to removal.

Quoting myself:


Tsabo's Moon 2
Artifact
Activated abilities of lands that aren't mana abilities can't be played.

An alternate blood moon that hit fetches the hardest, but also is incredibly good vs wastelands/ports in sol decks as it allow you to still mantain your greater mana generation while hosing your opponent mana development and mana denial strategies. Bonus random hoser of karakas and dark depths.

This would basically be null rod for legacy. Easily standard printable too and justifiable there as a hate card for manlands or smth.

[Julian23]

Reminds me of my favourite time from the Goyf era:

"We got Goyf Threshold, Deadgoyf Ale, Survival of the Goyfest and Goyfalid Breakfast.It probably won't end until we have decks like Goyf Stax, Goyfbelcher, Goyfchantress, Vial Goyflins, Goyfstill, Goyf from the Loam, Faergoyf Stompy, Goyf-Pox, Goyf Confinement, 8-Land Goyfstompy, and the Dave Gearhart classic, Goyfidarity. And Ichgoyfrid, Red Deadgoyf, GES, 42landand4goyf.dec, Goyf Game and Ill-Gotten-Goyf-y Pop"

[Bobmans]

Reminds me of my favourite time from the Goyf era:

"We got Goyf Threshold, Deadgoyf Ale, Survival of the Goyfest and Goyfalid Breakfast.It probably won't end until we have decks like Goyf Stax, Goyfbelcher, Goyfchantress, Vial Goyflins, Goyfstill, Goyf from the Loam, Faergoyf Stompy, Goyf-Pox, Goyf Confinement, 8-Land Goyfstompy, and the Dave Gearhart classic, Goyfidarity. And Ichgoyfrid, Red Deadgoyf, GES, 42landand4goyf.dec, Goyf Game and Ill-Gotten-Goyf-y Pop"
"I got 99 problems and a Goyf ain't one."

[Zombie]

People really did stuff Goyf everywhere back then. It was hilarious to watch (though I mostly lurked on the forums back then). Though Goyf wasn't a huge player in TS-Lor Standard, people did play "full fat Merfolk" (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/event-coverage/top-8-decklists-2008-08-24#william_cavaglieri) with Goyfs and Chameleon Colossi.

[Richard Cheese]

Honestly a LOT of the bad parts of the format could be sort of answered by either:

a really good fetchland hoser
a really good grave hate card

DRS, Goyfs, Brainstorm, Delve spells, 4c lists with 4 wastelands etc are all a function on how bonkers fetches are. It's not easy to design such a card though. Harsh mentor is deece but still bad.

I agree about fetches, but good grave hate?! Personally I think part of the reason all the goodstuff cantrip decks are so prolific is because of all the excellent, cheap, splashable grave hate they've printed over the last ~5 years. Surgical and RiP are insanely good sideboard cards, and now everyone is running 4x DRS in their main. Even if they weren't tier 1 decks, things like Dredge and Aggro Loam used to keep control and tempo in check because they could use their graveyard as a massive source of card advantage. Not that those decks are completely dead now, but they're so much easier to hate out that they can't really put much pressure on the format as a whole anymore.

[tescrin]

Honestly a LOT of the bad parts of the format could be sort of answered by either:

a really good fetchland hoser
a really good grave hate card

DRS, Goyfs, Brainstorm, Delve spells, 4c lists with 4 wastelands etc are all a function on how bonkers fetches are. It's not easy to design such a card though. Harsh mentor is deece but still bad.

Lol what.
How are:
* Aven Mindcensor
* Root Maze
* Thalia, Heretic Cathar
* Harsh Mentor
* Suppression Field
* Stifle and it's 2-mana cantrip counterparts
* etc?

not perfect examples of fetch hate? Most of those are even 1-sided, allowing you to run your own fetches. The ones that aren't (Suppression and Root Maze) aren't played specifically because they make building your own deck so #*&%ing difficult. I'd know, as i've built decks around both many times; it's very difficult to get working not just be running a pile.

And gravehate?
* Cage -> hates on Elves, GSZ, and more, all in colorless {1}
* Nihil Spellbomb -> Tormods with a cantrip
* Tormods -> 0 mana to do whatever
* Relic of Prog -> Cantrips and can eat the grave without busting itself
* RiP -> There are decks that main this as a combo piece because it hoses so much of the format
* Bojuka Bog -> no cards, no CMC, fetchable with Knight, that 1 CMC white dude, and Crop Rotation.
* Deathrite Shaman -> both susceptible to and helpful as gravehate. I actually use DRS partly to block opposing DRS activations.
* Scavenging Ooze -> Outsizes many baddies in the format while eating whatever you want.
* Surgical Extraction -> Colorless echoing-grave thoughtseize for 0 mana.
* Faerie Macabre -> colorless pick-two for 0 mana
* Ground Seal -> Cantripping Deathrite/Loam/other blocker
* Dryad Militant -> All instants/sorceries exiled
* Loaming Shaman -> shuffle as much of someone's graveyard into their deck as you want
* that 2/2 black zombie who's a crappy scavenging ooze
* that 2/1 black zombie who makes all cards in the grave lose all abilities
* do I need to continue!?

They don't need better gravehate at this point and it's hard to improve on most of the above. Whatever flavor of hate you want, most of it very splashable or colorless and potentially 0-mana, and thats' without getting into the mediocre answers, like Gaea's Blessing (cantrip, shuffle three, protection from milling), Misinformation (put any three on top of a library), etc.. can do. There's more..


Lastly, let's not go dictating what parts of the format are good/bad. I think the format, as I've seen it the last couple weeks, is pretty healthy.

[Jander78]

Lol what.
How are:
* Aven Mindcensor
* Root Maze
* Thalia, Heretic Cathar
* Harsh Mentor
* Suppression Field
* Stifle and it's 2-mana cantrip counterparts
* etc?

not perfect examples of fetch hate?

All of those are ok, but don't really hose fetchlands. They just provide an obstacle (and one for yourself in some cases). Something like Tsabo's Web that prevents activation instead of restricting untapping would actually hose them.

[Lemnear]

Honestly a LOT of the bad parts of the format could be sort of answered by either:

a really good fetchland hoser
a really good grave hate card

I am quite sure that DRS actually IS the best and most versatile graveyard hate in the format. Fetchlands can still be shut off with Pithing Needle. Its quite funny to cast Gitaxian Probe, see opponents Lands and then drop Needle

[DracoOccisor]

I agree, I don't think Wasteland+Shocks would make a fun dynamic, but Wizards is not limited to the cards currently printed. They can print land-hate stronger than Ghost Quarter but weaker than Wasteland and duals stronger than Shocks but weaker than ABU. Similarly, FoW is also not necessarily the only way you can print playable t0 interaction, Brainstorm+fetches not the only way to design a tool that gives decks card selection / profitable ways to trade off dead cards in hand.

If they want this format they can have it. Modern could conceivably be *better* than legacy. I just don't think they really care - if anything, it's bad for business if formats that don't require constantly spending money are way more fun than formats that do. That sounds kinda conspiratorial and I don't think they purposely make modern bad, but they also really don't spend that much energy finding ways to make it better.

I realize I'm a little late to the party, but I wanted to point out that this is gold.

I'm a long time legacy-only player (despite the age of my account), and all I really want is to play the high-complexity format where a win feels rewarding, and mana flood/screw is as much of a non-issue as possible. Pilot skill (and matchups, of course) are the golden standard rather than hitting the right lands and enough of them in a format with little deck manipulation. Does it feel bad when you're on Stoneblade and your opponent storms out turn 2? Yeah, of course. But that being said, doesn't it also feel good when you churn out a EoT turn 3 Batterskull and just take the game over from there?

I'm so disappointed with the top banning - not because Miracles was my pet deck, but because it was the last good draw-go deck that gave back higher rewards the better and more knowledgeable a pilot you were.

In fact, I made this account just because the top banning has gotten under my skin in regards to WOTC's decisions for game direction. They do the absolute bare minimum of support for Legacy, then jump in and destroy several decks with a single banning.

When you said that modern *could* be better than Legacy, I 100% agree. You can have the high power and high deck diversity of Legacy without the few cards that really serve to make the format miserable. Most of my MTG friends want to play Legacy, and find it a really interesting format, but the RL prevents them from playing.

They have so much potential for Modern, or even an "in-between" format between Legacy and Modern where you can serve this incredible community of Eternal format players instead of giving them the middle finger every few months.

There's my first post in rant form.

[tescrin]

All of those are ok, but don't really hose fetchlands. They just provide an obstacle (and one for yourself in some cases). Something like Tsabo's Web that prevents activation instead of restricting untapping.

To be fair, Pithing Needle does that. I think Leonin Arbiter and Suppression Field are pretty difficult to get around. If you have a fetch-base and you need mana to get your mana.. good chance you're not getting it.

We are talking the most efficient, and potentially cantripping, land destruction in the game. That 2 mana cantrip U/B U/B that blocks library searches, pitches to force, and always gives you a card.. if things like that aren't good enough..

I find it hard to believe that hosing your mana base and requiring you to pay mana to unhose it isn't good enough. That a 1-mana enchantment that slows your opponent by a full turn or two turns of mana production is just an obstacle. If you really want to do what you're talking about; Root Maze + Tsabo's Web + Chrome Mox will do that by T2 and you'll have a gay ol' time.

[Barook]

http://www.pcgamer.com/magic-the-gathering-is-getting-the-aaa-rpg-treatment/

So apparently MTG is getting a MMO. Not sure how to feel about that. Imho, it's going to be giant waste of money on Wizards' side.

[Dice_Box]

I have no interest in this, but at the same time I play flight sims so I am not the target. I could see it working though. There will be people who want this if they do it right. It's not like they don't have a really solid foundation to build off.

[Barook]

I have no interest in this, but at the same time I play flight sims so I am not the target. I could see it working though. There will be people who want this if they do it right. It's not like they don't have a really solid foundation to build off.
That's a big IF. Sure, it could be cool to stroll around in Ravnica, fight in the Cabal Arena, etc., but I do fear that the technical execution and amount of actual content is going to leave alot to be desired, even if it isn't developed in-house.

The MMO trend is long over. At least they didn't try to make a Planeswalker MOBA - yet.

[Fox]

I can't imagine a worse mistake than making an MTG mmo. Just pay Bethesda to make Skyrim2.0 set in Dominaria.

[DLifshitz]

So apparently MTG is getting a MMO.

Hasbro has been trying to turn Magic into a franchise for some time now, what with the comics, the board game, action figures, the movie, and some miscellaneous vaporware. The current storyline, which features what is essentially a superhero team going from plane to plane and righting wrongs, is quite obviously part of that strategy. Making another computer game, even one that probably won't be very unique or innovative, is very much a logical move.

I expect we will see many other products with the Magic brand. The last year or two especially must have demonstrated to Hasbro that there are limits to the growth of the card game itself, and that the brand must diversify. That should also help them directly reach potential customers, and in particular people who might be put off by your average FLGS.

[Megadeus]

I can't imagine a worse mistake than making an MTG mmo. Just pay Bethesda to make Skyrim2.0 set in Dominaria.

I'd play a good magic RPG. that would actually be really fucking cool

[Crimhead]

I'd play a good magic RPG. that would actually be really fucking cool

I think D&D 5th now offers Zendikar and Innistrad as playable worlds. That's probably as close as you'll ever get.

[Barook]

Hasbro has been trying to turn Magic into a franchise for some time now, what with the comics, the board game, action figures, the movie, and some miscellaneous vaporware. The current storyline, which features what is essentially a superhero team going from plane to plane and righting wrongs, is quite obviously part of that strategy. Making another computer game, even one that probably won't be very unique or innovative, is very much a logical move.

I expect we will see many other products with the Magic brand. The last year or two especially must have demonstrated to Hasbro that there are limits to the growth of the card game itself, and that the brand must diversify. That should also help them directly reach potential customers, and in particular people who might be put off by your average FLGS.
Yes, the card game has reached its limit, but one has to question why is that. Competition has become more fierce and WotC has neglected their main way of recruiting new players, online, with their piss-poor software and ancient, outdated pricing model. It certainly doesn't help when your flagship format, Standard, is by far the worst format of the game and is mainly played for price support, not because people love it.

As for turning the game into a franchise, it really hurts the core game on their quest for more money. Everything they did so far backfired spectaculary. The Jacetice Leage is liked by some, detested by others. The focus on pushed story cards (e.g. Emrakul) fucked over Standard really, really hard. As did the lack of playtesting the format because gotta save money. Or the hastened up Standard rotation. Or cannibalizing set sales by pushing 4 fucking sets in 4 months. :really:

WotC doesn't exactly have a good track record when it comes to selling things different from the card game. Think about the forgotten PW tabletop game. Or the Jace silver coins.

I just can't think of a way how a MTG MMO could be successful. Only a fraction of the 20 million playerbase would probably be willing to play the game. The normal Joe doesn't care if your damage spell is called Lightning Bolt, the actual game has to deliver or nobody will care.

We don't know yet how it's going to turn out, but my concept for a MMO that's integrated into the franchise would be:
- Whenever a new plane comes up, it also gets released in the MMO. Story-wise, you play what happens in the card game. That would require a return to the old "One plane per year" plan, but was it really that bad? As the story unfolds, it the client gets updated. E.g. with Hour of Devestation, the Amonkhet plane would end with a raid on Nicol Bolas at the end. In addition to that, give opportunity to revisit old events, like e.g. the Phyrexian Invasion. Whether or not a year of development time is feasible for good content is a different question, though.
- But what's even more important: Integrate the actual full card game into the client. Like Gwent in the Witcher 3, a game in the game, basically. Still let it function like a client for the card game and could be monetized.

But in the end, the execution is the most important thing. And I'm very sceptical about that.

[TsumiBand]

There are a bunch of ways to "fake" a card game to get the attention of CG players while also just riffing on popular MMO themes. Wizard101 did it fairly faithfully, games like Battlehand tried it but failed (imho), and Mobius Final Fantasy uses the word "card" and "deck" to describe in-game mechanics that are honestly more akin to Pokémon and its "you can only teach pokes 4 moves" gameplay.

I... I have no idea how a faithful representation of MtG gameplay could exist in an MMO setting without it feeling like a clone of something that was probably inspired by the game itself. It'll probably feel like a parody of itself tbh, and I don't say that just to be instantly negative or anything, it's just that Magic is a really shitty video game when it's trying to stay true to its roots. MTGO blows, DotP is only cool because it is limited in its execution and even tbe free form "no actual rules" things like MWS were always saddled by the same issues as playing with your average noobs only you get those toxic XBLA fuckers in on the game too. I dunno mang, I feel like any MtG MMO can only be successful in spite of the physical game.

[jandax]

I can't imagine a worse mistake than making an MTG mmo. Just pay Bethesda to make Skyrim2.0 set in Dominaria.
A whole bunch of this.

And then some more. Please.

Imagine that a mountain hold is Shiv, dragons flying around. Mishra and Urza are durdling around bitchfighting. I'm game.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[mistercakes]

It's just incredible that they could just remake Shandalar and it would be a great game. They could even use their current storyline for it and release expansions based on story (set) updates.

[rufus]

It's just incredible that they could just remake Shandalar and it would be a great game. They could even use their current storyline for it and release expansions based on story (set) updates.

The that is that there are fundamental things that the complex rules and interactivity that make it hard to make a good MTGO client will also make any MMO difficult. Maybe Duels is some kind of dry run, but I'm not sure how much better those issues are there.

[Barook]

Announcing announcments - what's not to love? (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/announcement-week-coming-2017-06-08)

Monday - future changes to sets (bringing back core sets?)
Thusday - digital garbage and B&R announcement (more Standard bans since it was moved from Wednesday?)
Wednesday - new products
Thursday - GP Vegas and Organized Play changes
Friday - Hour of Devestation spoilers

[Lord Seth]

As for turning the game into a franchise, it really hurts the core game on their quest for more money. Everything they did so far backfired spectaculary. The Jacetice Leage is liked by some, detested by others. The focus on pushed story cards (e.g. Emrakul) fucked over Standard really, really hard. As did the lack of playtesting the format because gotta save money. Or the hastened up Standard rotation. Or cannibalizing set sales by pushing 4 fucking sets in 4 months. :really:

WotC doesn't exactly have a good track record when it comes to selling things different from the card game. Think about the forgotten PW tabletop game. Or the Jace silver coins.Honestly, franchise makes sense. People often say that the reason Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh TCGs are popular at all is because of the strength of their franchises. I think that's become less true about the Pokemon TCG over the last year or two, but if products outside of the TCG can raise the TCG's popularity that much, then you have to consider how it could raise the popularity of Magic. Video games are the most obvious choice for such a thing. I was actually wondering why they hadn't tried doing a video game (as in, one not based explicitly on the gameplay of the TCG) because it seemed like such a good way to get more people in, if it were a good game.

[Ronald Deuce]

Bring back the Brothers' War and the goddamned Sarpadian Empires.

[Megadeus]

Honestly, franchise makes sense. People often say that the reason Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh TCGs are popular at all is because of the strength of their franchises. I think that's become less true about the Pokemon TCG over the last year or two, but if products outside of the TCG can raise the TCG's popularity that much, then you have to consider how it could raise the popularity of Magic. Video games are the most obvious choice for such a thing. I was actually wondering why they hadn't tried doing a video game (as in, one not based explicitly on the gameplay of the TCG) because it seemed like such a good way to get more people in, if it were a good game.

They did have a game for XBox. It was supposedly shit

[Lord Seth]

They did have a game for XBox. It was supposedly shitHuh, you're right, there was. Looking at reviews, though, it didn't look like it was that bad, just kind of okay, which of course isn't enough if the point is to try to advertise the franchise.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/metamorphosis-2-0-2017-06-12

1. The Fall, Winter, and Spring Sets Will All Be Large Sets That Are Drafted Alone

2. The Summer Set Will Be a Revamped Core Set

3. We're significantly pulling back on how often the Gatewatch will appear as planeswalker cards.

4. The Masterpieces Series Will Revert to Being in Fewer Sets

5. New "Play Design" Team to Provide More Playtesting for Standard

[Gheizen64]

Bring back the Brothers' War and the goddamned Sarpadian Empires.

This, times 1000.

[Barook]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/metamorphosis-2-0-2017-06-12

1. The Fall, Winter, and Spring Sets Will All Be Large Sets That Are Drafted Alone

2. The Summer Set Will Be a Revamped Core Set
No more small sets is just as important.

The changes sound good in theory, but so did they the last time (minus the shorter Standard rotation). While they can stay on a plane for 1-3 big sets now, I do wonder if they burn through mechanics even faster. We'll have to wait and see.

[Dice_Box]

No more small sets is just as important.

The changes sound good in theory, but so did they the last time (minus the shorter Standard rotation). While they can stay on a plane for 1-3 big sets now, I do wonder if they burn through mechanics even faster. We'll have to wait and see.
An idea could be to reintroduce an old mechanic every time you visit an old world. Say you go back to Zendikar again, Landfall would be something you include.

[H]

An idea could be to reintroduce an old mechanic every time you visit an old world. Say you go back to Zendikar again, Landfall would be something you include.

Change is fine; lazy, bland, uninspired and sloppy design isn't though.

All the proposals are pretty reasonable. It will remain to be seen what they do with things though. Return sets are a gimmick, but a reasonable one, depending how often they go to it and how they handle it.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

Core Sets are by far the biggest and best change from this announcement.
Standard is most likely going to get better and the tribes are going to start getting new cards again.

[Lemnear]

Change is fine; lazy, bland, uninspired and sloppy design isn't though.

All the proposals are pretty reasonable. It will remain to be seen what they do with things though. Return sets are a gimmick, but a reasonable one, depending how often they go to it and how they handle it.

Return-Sets are just a lazy way to feast on Nostalgia. Its not than WotC cares about what made certain blocks popular in the first place. Every revisit has been executed by chopping the original mechanics & flavor for more Kicker & Jacetice League bollocks

[Barook]

Return-Sets are just a lazy way to feast on Nostalgia. Its not than WotC cares about what made certain blocks popular in the first place. Every revisit has been executed by chopping the original mechanics & flavor for more Kicker & Jacetice League bollocks
It's irritating how deep they have heads in their asses when it comes to nostalgia. Popular mechanics aren't brought back just because, or they get mangled beyond recognition because they were "too good". If you bring back Landfall and the only Landfall card worth a shit is Retreat to Coralhelm, with the best Landfall card (Tireless Tracker) not even being in the same block, you failed epically at your job.

[H]

It's irritating how deep they have heads in their asses when it comes to nostalgia. Popular mechanics aren't brought back just because, or they get mangled beyond recognition because they were "too good". If you bring back Landfall and the only Landfall card worth a shit is Retreat to Coralhelm, with the best Landfall card (Tireless Tracker) not even being in the same block, you failed epically at your job.

Yeah, I don't think nostalgia is bad. Just the way they have gone about it is bad. You really don't need to reinvent the wheel on a monthly basis...

It's like the cash grab that is the "Masters" sets: they are cash grabs, we know they are cash grabs, but (at least the last two) were actually done pretty well, so most people don't mind.

[MaximumC]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/metamorphosis-2-0-2017-06-12

1. The Fall, Winter, and Spring Sets Will All Be Large Sets That Are Drafted Alone

2. The Summer Set Will Be a Revamped Core Set

3. We're significantly pulling back on how often the Gatewatch will appear as planeswalker cards.

4. The Masterpieces Series Will Revert to Being in Fewer Sets

5. New "Play Design" Team to Provide More Playtesting for Standard

I was completely on board with WotC's prior changes to how they did sets. I'm not on board with this one.


Standard is most likely going to get better and the tribes are going to start getting new cards again.

And that's basically why. Standard is getting favored over Eternal.

This announcement does not necessarily mean anything in particular for eternal. They can still print whatever they want. Conspiracy, Commander, and the Masters Series can still keep churning our wild and wacky cards for eternal. But, this new setup seems to shift focus away from Eternal and back to Standard and Draft. Coming from a Vintage/Legacy perspective, that's NOT what I want to see.

No more blocks = This is a neutral development. They now cram more of the riffs on the set's mechanics into a smaller package. That could mean more experimental designs are left on the cutting room floor, which is bad, or it could mean they do more work to differentiate cards from each other to flesh out the space they have. Hard to say how this affects us.

Core Set Returns = This is a bad thing. One of our sets is replaced by a 50% reprint set that has to be safe for Standard. This means that much less of a chance of powerful new cards or reprints. I am also concerned that a return to the Core series takes the focus off of the Masters series as the defacto reprint set. A set that exists to make sure people have Giant Spider and Lightning Strike is a fine thing, but it should be called the Planeswalker Intro Decks and it should not replace a block.

Gatewatch = Yeah, good riddance, but that doesn't have anything to do with any mechanical issues and is independent of any other changes they are making.

Fewer Masterpieces = Terrible decision. The Masterpieces were a GREAT way to barf out more copies of sought-after cards on a regular basis without tanking prices, but still giving us more supply. More supply = lower prices. This was the best decision they made in years, and now they're yanking it away.

Play Design Testing = Did you like how we've had tons of eternal playable in recent sets, and how sets have been awesome since we left the garbage can that was Theros? Well, screw you, because now we're going to make sure things are safe for Standard. I do not see a way in which this leads to less powerful and flexible effects. Kaladesh is going to join the pantheon of artifact sets with Urza (yes yes I know it was technically an enchantment-matters block but that was a stupid decision and I am going to ignore it) and Mirrodin, ushering us into a new era of Mercadian Masques and Kamigawa.



It's like the cash grab that is the "Masters" sets: they are cash grabs, we know they are cash grabs, but (at least the last two) were actually done pretty well, so most people don't mind.

It's the perfect kind of cash grab. It's all reprints. If you need those cards, more supply will help you get them. If you don't need those cards, you ignore the set entirely. There's literally no downside. The same is true of Masterpieces.

[morgan_coke]

They should do more "spark" flip 'walker cards. Those things were awesome.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

I was completely on board with WotC's prior changes to how they did sets. I'm not on board with this one.



And that's basically why. Standard is getting favored over Eternal.

This announcement does not necessarily mean anything in particular for eternal. They can still print whatever they want. Conspiracy, Commander, and the Masters Series can still keep churning our wild and wacky cards for eternal. But, this new setup seems to shift focus away from Eternal and back to Standard and Draft. Coming from a Vintage/Legacy perspective, that's NOT what I want to see.

No more blocks = This is a neutral development. They now cram more of the riffs on the set's mechanics into a smaller package. That could mean more experimental designs are left on the cutting room floor, which is bad, or it could mean they do more work to differentiate cards from each other to flesh out the space they have. Hard to say how this affects us.

Core Set Returns = This is a bad thing. One of our sets is replaced by a 50% reprint set that has to be safe for Standard. This means that much less of a chance of powerful new cards or reprints. I am also concerned that a return to the Core series takes the focus off of the Masters series as the defacto reprint set. A set that exists to make sure people have Giant Spider and Lightning Strike is a fine thing, but it should be called the Planeswalker Intro Decks and it should not replace a block.

Gatewatch = Yeah, good riddance, but that doesn't have anything to do with any mechanical issues and is independent of any other changes they are making.

Fewer Masterpieces = Terrible decision. The Masterpieces were a GREAT way to barf out more copies of sought-after cards on a regular basis without tanking prices, but still giving us more supply. More supply = lower prices. This was the best decision they made in years, and now they're yanking it away.

Play Design Testing = Did you like how we've had tons of eternal playable in recent sets, and how sets have been awesome since we left the garbage can that was Theros? Well, screw you, because now we're going to make sure things are safe for Standard. I do not see a way in which this leads to less powerful and flexible effects. Kaladesh is going to join the pantheon of artifact sets with Urza (yes yes I know it was technically an enchantment-matters block but that was a stupid decision and I am going to ignore it) and Mirrodin, ushering us into a new era of Mercadian Masques and Kamigawa.



It's the perfect kind of cash grab. It's all reprints. If you need those cards, more supply will help you get them. If you don't need those cards, you ignore the set entirely. There's literally no downside. The same is true of Masterpieces.

Core Set Returns- there is no point in doing reprints if a. they aren't going to make standard better, or b. they aren't going to lower prices on cards played in eternal formats. These are both good reasons for doing reprints. Also yes you may be right that they will reprint useless stuff like Giant Spider and Cancel, but that is going to be in the common slots which eternal players don't care about anyways.

Play Design Testing- Standard is the backbone of Magic. Standard keeps powercreep under control and provides the incentive to buy booster packs which keeps WotC in business. So unless you want Magic to die you shouldn't be complaining about a move that is attempting to fix Standard. Also plenty of eternal-playable cards came from balanced standard environments, much of the stuff that's broken in standard doesn't even see eternal-play anyways.

[Barook]

I was completely on board with WotC's prior changes to how they did sets. I'm not on board with this one.



And that's basically why. Standard is getting favored over Eternal.

This announcement does not necessarily mean anything in particular for eternal. They can still print whatever they want. Conspiracy, Commander, and the Masters Series can still keep churning our wild and wacky cards for eternal. But, this new setup seems to shift focus away from Eternal and back to Standard and Draft. Coming from a Vintage/Legacy perspective, that's NOT what I want to see.

No more blocks = This is a neutral development. They now cram more of the riffs on the set's mechanics into a smaller package. That could mean more experimental designs are left on the cutting room floor, which is bad, or it could mean they do more work to differentiate cards from each other to flesh out the space they have. Hard to say how this affects us.

Core Set Returns = This is a bad thing. One of our sets is replaced by a 50% reprint set that has to be safe for Standard. This means that much less of a chance of powerful new cards or reprints. I am also concerned that a return to the Core series takes the focus off of the Masters series as the defacto reprint set. A set that exists to make sure people have Giant Spider and Lightning Strike is a fine thing, but it should be called the Planeswalker Intro Decks and it should not replace a block.

Gatewatch = Yeah, good riddance, but that doesn't have anything to do with any mechanical issues and is independent of any other changes they are making.

Fewer Masterpieces = Terrible decision. The Masterpieces were a GREAT way to barf out more copies of sought-after cards on a regular basis without tanking prices, but still giving us more supply. More supply = lower prices. This was the best decision they made in years, and now they're yanking it away.

Play Design Testing = Did you like how we've had tons of eternal playable in recent sets, and how sets have been awesome since we left the garbage can that was Theros? Well, screw you, because now we're going to make sure things are safe for Standard. I do not see a way in which this leads to less powerful and flexible effects. Kaladesh is going to join the pantheon of artifact sets with Urza (yes yes I know it was technically an enchantment-matters block but that was a stupid decision and I am going to ignore it) and Mirrodin, ushering us into a new era of Mercadian Masques and Kamigawa.



It's the perfect kind of cash grab. It's all reprints. If you need those cards, more supply will help you get them. If you don't need those cards, you ignore the set entirely. There's literally no downside. The same is true of Masterpieces.
They're redesigning core sets. I guess it's going to turn out more like Magic Origins, which was well-received for a "core" set. Thing is that nobody wants all the garbage that is normally attached to core sets, hence them selling so badly. Just make them a new set with good new cards and slap in popular staple reprints and it's good to go.

Masterpieces: Amonkhet masterpieces were generally shat on for the abomination they call a frame. They'll also run out of good reprints sooner or later. So it isn't suprising they're going to reduce the frequency.

Playtesting: I'm more suprised they didn't have an actual playtest team for Standard, out of all things. Standard might become less terrible in future, but is it going to reverse the trend of Modern taking over Standard in terms of popularity? Who knows - Standard is still a very limited format that is mainly competitive played due to price support, not because it's good.

@ morgan_coke: Flipwalkers are apperently very challenging from a print logistics point of view. I doubt we're going to see them very often.

[MaximumC]

Core Set Returns- there is no point in doing reprints if a. they aren't going to make standard better, or b. they aren't going to lower prices on cards played in eternal formats. These are both good reasons for doing reprints. Also yes you may be right that they will reprint useless stuff like Giant Spider and Cancel, but that is going to be in the common slots which eternal players don't care about anyways.

My problem is not with the Core set existing. You can always not buy a crappy set. My problem is with the Core set REPLACING one of the block sets we would otherwise get. Those Giant Spiders and Cancels are taking the place of potentially new and interesting commons from new blocks. That's where I think there's a high risk of Eternal getting the shaft.

(Or worse, if they slow down on Masters series sets because the Core set exists...!)



Play Design Testing- Standard is the backbone of Magic. Standard keeps powercreep under control and provides the incentive to buy booster packs which keeps WotC in business. So unless you want Magic to die you shouldn't be complaining about a move that is attempting to fix Standard. Also plenty of eternal-playable cards came from balanced standard environments, much of the stuff that's broken in standard doesn't even see eternal-play anyways.

True, but balancing things for standard aggressively sure sounds to me like it is going to impact how many cards slip through the cracks into eternal play. Beloved staples like Sol Ring and Memory Jar can't be printed if you've got a gatekeeper specifically there to stop them. Or, they get less likely, anyway.

Remember how terrible Theros was? A perfect storm of safe but awful mechanics? I would expect to see a lot more safe mechanics like Inspired, Tribute, Devotion, and so on in a world with people trying to keep everything under control.



Masterpieces: Amonkhet masterpieces were generally shat on for the abomination they call a frame. They'll also run out of good reprints sooner or later. So it isn't suprising they're going to reduce the frequency.

The Amonkhet masterpieces were awful, and that's great. Print more ugly Forces of Will. Print'em in every set! Keep recycling the same cards in new frames, it's all good. We've already seen that Masterpieces don't tank the price of the original, but as they keep on doing this they'll keep introducing new supply of staples into the market. This will moderate prices. If you don't like them, you don't get them. Heaven knows I wanted nothing to do with any of the Amonkhet cards. I'm amazed they're dumping this program when it seemed like nothing but upside.

[Barook]

The Amonkhet masterpieces were awful, and that's great. Print more ugly Forces of Will. Print'em in every set! Keep recycling the same cards in new frames, it's all good. We've already seen that Masterpieces don't tank the price of the original, but as they keep on doing this they'll keep introducing new supply of staples into the market. This will moderate prices. If you don't like them, you don't get them. Heaven knows I wanted nothing to do with any of the Amonkhet cards. I'm amazed they're dumping this program when it seemed like nothing but upside.
For Paper, there's little downside.

But for MTGO, those masterpieces are pure cancer. Since pretty much all the value is concentrated on those, the rest of the cards are worth nothing. And since masterpieces can only be acquired via treasure chests on MTGO and can't even be redeemed, the EV of the sets are abyssal now. An Amonkhet booster costs ~3.30 tix from bots, with an expected EV of 0.43 tix. Drafting cost didn't really get lowered, but the returns are now utter garbage.

[MaximumC]

For Paper, there's little downside.

But for MTGO, those masterpieces are pure cancer. Since pretty much all the value is concentrated on those, the rest of the cards are worth nothing. And since masterpieces can only be acquired via treasure chests on MTGO and can't even be redeemed, the EV of the sets are abyssal now. An Amonkhet booster costs ~3.30 tix from bots, with an expected EV of 0.43 tix. Drafting cost didn't really get lowered, but the returns are now utter garbage.

That's a good perspective. I don't play MTGO, so I had not even considered the impact there. Can't you just sell your garbage masterpiece to a bot for a premium?

[Dice_Box]

Amonkhet is a low value set in paper too. I have not seen a box opened yet that was worth more than its purchase price. I draft a fair amount too, so I see shit opened.

[MaximumC]

As a player, though, I like that the Masterpieces push the price of new cards down just like I like how they push the cards they reprint down. Seems like all upside.

Do we know if it is actually affecting how much product is getting moved from distributors? Is the low EV hurting the bottom line for Wizards, or is it just making players more able to buy cards?

[Lord Seth]

Hrm... these actually seem to be pretty good changes, at least in theory. In fact, I'm not seeing anything I particularly dislike.

Only having large expansions is actually a pretty good idea that, looking back, it's surprising they didn't do earlier. Smaller sets never seem to be as popular and, as noted, are generally disliked in terms of draft experience.

I do still think that the problems resulting from the lack of Core sets could have been solved by Wizards of the Coast by simply better distributing the normally reprinted cards into expansions (yes, I know some cards couldn't be put into expansions because of flavor, but there's plenty of cards that didn't have the problem that weren't being printed). Still, they seemed either unwilling or unable to do it, so if that's a problem that can't be fixed without returning to core sets, then bring back to the core sets. I do wonder what they're going to change about them, though... he talks several times about how they're going to be revamped but never gives any real detail on that.

The differing size of "blocks" is another good idea. You don't need to either stretch or shrink it to a particular size; you can do 1, 2, or 3 as applicable.

I don't really care one way or the other about Masterpieces or the Gatewatch.

So really, on the whole, some good ideas here. Of course, they could screw it up, but in concept it's pretty good. The most obvious potential problem is that having three large sets might put some extra strain on them when it comes to making cards, as there's more cards to make.

[Barook]

That's a good perspective. I don't play MTGO, so I had not even considered the impact there. Can't you just sell your garbage masterpiece to a bot for a premium?
Premium? Ha ha, good one. Those are worth less than their normal counterparts.


Amonkhet is a low value set in paper too. I have not seen a box opened yet that was worth more than its purchase price. I draft a fair amount too, so I see shit opened.
If the EV is higher than the box price, the LGS is better off opening them themselves. Or they jack up the price up to eleven, as previously seen on former Modern Masters sets or various FTV sets that weren't garbage.


As a player, though, I like that the Masterpieces push the price of new cards down just like I like how they push the cards they reprint down. Seems like all upside.

Do we know if it is actually affecting how much product is getting moved from distributors? Is the low EV hurting the bottom line for Wizards, or is it just making players more able to buy cards?
We only know that LGS sold slightly less product last year. And the reason for that could very well be the very shitty Standard.

[MaximumC]

Premium? Ha ha, good one. Those are worth less than their normal counterparts.


If the masterpieces are not sought after, and thus have a low price, doesn't that mean they are not absorbing much of the EV of a set? In other words, I'm confused. If no one wants Masterpieces, then how does their existence lower the price of Amonkhet online?

[Purple Blood]

I like the changes a lot personally. Core sets needed to return. And I like the idea of having discreet draft environments for each set. Albeit this is coming from someone who finds draft to be the most entertaining sanctioned format. IMO draft is closer to the original vision of Magic i.e. not everyone has access to 4x of every card they want so you have to build your deck having limited selection. It's as close as we'll get to the good ole' pre-internet days of playing with your friends and not even knowing the names of all the cards let alone having access to any of them with a few mouse clicks. But I digress.

Doing away with blocks is better as well. Less forced choices and more discretion to make the best product they can is the best. Change I like the most is probably the deemphasis on the gatewatch planeswalkers. It's really boring seeing the same names over and over.




Remember how terrible Theros was? A perfect storm of safe but awful mechanics? I would expect to see a lot more safe mechanics like Inspired, Tribute, Devotion, and so on in a world with people trying to keep everything under control.

Or it could just be the world we have now except where Felidar Guardian didn't get printed, Smuggler's Copter had Crew cost of two, and Emrakul didn't have a stupid mindslaver on cast ability attached to it.


As a player, though, I like that the Masterpieces push the price of new cards down just like I like how they push the cards they reprint down. Seems like all upside.

Do we know if it is actually affecting how much product is getting moved from distributors? Is the low EV hurting the bottom line for Wizards, or is it just making players more able to buy cards?

Intuitively it would suggest the latter. X% of the box EV is wrapped up in masterpieces. If you're a new-ish player or just a player trying to get into Standard there's an inverse relationship between X and your incentive to actually crack open a pack.

[Barook]

If the masterpieces are not sought after, and thus have a low price, doesn't that mean they are not absorbing much of the EV of a set? In other words, I'm confused. If no one wants Masterpieces, then how does their existence lower the price of Amonkhet online?
You got it all wrong.

MTGO's economy is linked with its Paper counterpart via Standard set redemption, since it's the way how people can turn online collections into actual hard $. When WotC increased the redemption fee from 5$ to 25$ per complete set, the price of a completed set pretty much fell by the same amount. Once the day comes where WotC completely gets rid of redemption, all hell will break lose - but that's a story for another day.

Long story short, if the Paper set isn't worth much, then the Online version is bound to be worthless as well.

Now most of the EV in Paper Standard sets is concentrated in the masterpieces, leaving little value for the rest of set, aka the Standard-legal cards. And that little pile of low value is exactly what MTGO's online set price is bound to, since masterpieces can't be redeemed. Or to put it into actual numbers (pulled from Goldfish):

Amonkhet's set value is 15% normal card prices, 85% masterpieces.
And MTGO's set value is bound to those 15% (instead of 100% without masterpieces).

[Aggro_zombies]

Play Design Testing = Did you like how we've had tons of eternal playable in recent sets, and how sets have been awesome since we left the garbage can that was Theros? Well, screw you, because now we're going to make sure things are safe for Standard. I do not see a way in which this leads to less powerful and flexible effects. Kaladesh is going to join the pantheon of artifact sets with Urza (yes yes I know it was technically an enchantment-matters block but that was a stupid decision and I am going to ignore it) and Mirrodin, ushering us into a new era of Mercadian Masques and Kamigawa.
I disagree here on a number of fronts.

1) Many of the problem cards in current or recent Standards haven't been particularly overbearing in Legacy or Vintage. I'm thinking of things like Felidar Guardian or Emrakul, the Promised End, that lead to broken interactions in formats with poor answers but aren't anywhere close to breaking through Eternal's power floor. Conversely, cards like Fatal Push are often fine for Standard because their power level scales with the degeneracy of the environment. Cards that are incredibly efficient and explicitly care about raw efficiency make the transition without making waves; similarly, cards like Ad Nauseam, which thrive in busted environments but do fuck all in fair ones, are also safe to print. In fact, I'd say your biggest risk would stem from another Mental Misstep - a card explicitly designed and pushed for a format they don't regularly test - and not from filtering options for Standard.

2) The new one-set block models gives them the ability to be experimental without having to wallow in their mistakes for multiple sets. If they decide to give us a "Meanwhile, on New Phyrexia..." set that turns out to be busted beyond belief, they're not obligated to keep pumping out cards for it in "New Phyrexia II: Small Set Boogaloo". The new model lets them take more calculated risks because it lets them hedge better, and that's good for Eternal formats. Additionally, the return of Core Sets lets them print powerful but non-specific answers that are difficult from a flavor, space, or story perspective to slot into main sets (like Pithing Needle), which gives them additional safety valves.

3) More active B&R List management can shake up Eternal formats without having to crutch on new printings. We just had this with the loss of Top and the dethronement of Miracles. With their move to more frequent B&R announcements, they have more opportunities to actively cultivate their formats. Whether that's a good thing is itself debatable, but it's an option.

[Lord Seth]

In regards to the complaint that a core set would mean fewer new cards because it'd be half reprints, I'd like to point out that the current situation is two large sets, two small sets. The new one would be three large sets, one core set. Now, the small sets are about 2/3 the size of a large set, so under the current paradigm we effectively have 3.333 large sets worth of cards. If we count the core set as half of a set due to the reprints, that means under the new system we'd have... 3.5 large sets worth of cards. That's actually a small increase.

[Darkenslight]

They should do more "spark" flip 'walker cards. Those things were awesome.

They seem to be doing something similar to this, but across multiple sets. People like Samut, Voice of Dissent becoming a 'walker in HOU.

I'm sort-of-okay with these changes, but the execution is key. I'd be okay with 175/200-card sets each time. So smaller sets, but with a slightly more compressed manner than currently.

[Zombie]

TS-Lor-CSnap was one of the best Standard formats ever and interestingly the largest one ever.

[Crimhead]

TS-Lor-CSnap was one of the best Standard formats ever and interestingly the largest one ever.

I liked Rav/CS/TS better by miles.

Lorwyn was the beginning of the end.

[H]

In regards to the complaint that a core set would mean fewer new cards because it'd be half reprints, I'd like to point out that the current situation is two large sets, two small sets. The new one would be three large sets, one core set. Now, the small sets are about 2/3 the size of a large set, so under the current paradigm we effectively have 3.333 large sets worth of cards. If we count the core set as half of a set due to the reprints, that means under the new system we'd have... 3.5 large sets worth of cards. That's actually a small increase.

How dare you use math on us.

One aspect of this that I like is how it might help with some card availability, where good cards in small sets were opened less since the set was drafted less, both in duration and quantity.

[Moosedog]

You got it all wrong.

MTGO's economy is linked with its Paper counterpart via Standard set redemption, since it's the way how people can turn online collections into actual hard $. When WotC increased the redemption fee from 5$ to 25$ per complete set, the price of a completed set pretty much fell by the same amount. Once the day comes where WotC completely gets rid of redemption, all hell will break lose - but that's a story for another day.

Long story short, if the Paper set isn't worth much, then the Online version is bound to be worthless as well.



Thanks for this. I did not understand how that worked.

Regarding announcement, I do want to give some credit for the message delivery. It was very public relations 101. Say why you are making changes, admit mistakes, take credit for what worked, and say how it will be better. One criticism though is they did really want you to know they are listening. I'm always a little cautious when someone repeatably says " hey look how much we are paying attention and listening!" - comes off like you are compensating with words for lack of actions.

[MaximumC]

In regards to the complaint that a core set would mean fewer new cards because it'd be half reprints, I'd like to point out that the current situation is two large sets, two small sets. The new one would be three large sets, one core set. Now, the small sets are about 2/3 the size of a large set, so under the current paradigm we effectively have 3.333 large sets worth of cards. If we count the core set as half of a set due to the reprints, that means under the new system we'd have... 3.5 large sets worth of cards. That's actually a small increase.

I guess so. I wonder which way leads to more "filler" vanilla fluff for Standard, though: fewer, larger sets, or more, smaller sets. I also am skeptical of how interesting a core set can be, but I guess they did a fine job with Origins (Strictly Worse Eternal Staples - The Set).

I guess we'll wait and see how they do this thing.

[Barook]

How dare you use math on us.

One aspect of this that I like is how it might help with some card availability, where good cards in small sets were opened less since the set was drafted less, both in duration and quantity.
Winter/spring sets still seem to rotate faster than autumn sets if I read the graphic from the article right.

http://media.wizards.com/2017/images/daily/WoQ7zZCDjD_2018_Releases.gif

[H]

Winter/spring sets still seem to rotate faster than autumn sets if I read the graphic from the article right.

Hmm, but they should all be drafted for the same amount of time though, right?

That gif just confuses the shit out of me, honestly. I'm not really understanding the rotation period, but it shouldn't really matter in relation to how long each set is the "new set" and so how long it gets opened for the purposes of drafting. Of course it does pertain to opening for value, but even so that should remain the same (I think).

[Barook]

Magic Digital Next Update (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-digital/magic-digital-next-update-2017-06-13)

MTG MMO we already know about & Duels is dead and gets a sequel (probably the Hearthstone-like thing we got a screenshot of). Basically:

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/296/788/4fc.jpg


Hmm, but they should all be drafted for the same amount of time though, right?

That gif just confuses the shit out of me, honestly. I'm not really understanding the rotation period, but it shouldn't really matter in relation to how long each set is the "new set" and so how long it gets opened for the purposes of drafting. Of course it does pertain to opening for value, but even so that should remain the same (I think).
It's how long is a set legal. An autumn set is around for full two years, the sets inbetween for less time, similiar to how it worked before WotC changed to the 2-block model.

[morgan_coke]

So.. yeah. Got back in because they were doing a real cycling block again.. but you can't play a cycling deck anymore, even in standard, because they didn't reprint Slide or Rift or anything playable because.. reasons. Today's B&R did nothing to address the real problems I've seen with the format and just, their entire design direction right now. Don't even get me started on what a mess digital is. Right now it's Eternal: Play Brainstorm. Modern: Play garbage in a big format with zero answers, so it's either speed kill or ramp/cheat to stupidity. Standard: Play broken card of the week until it gets banned then move to the next one, because answers=LOL.

Gonna sell out again and never look back I think. New World Order has been an unmitigated disaster, it fueled growth for awhile, but all them chickens coming home now.

[Richard Cheese]

What the shit? At least finish the fucking block, Wizards! Duels might be the best thing they're making right now, and now they're going to shit all over whatever consumer confidence they established with it by just abruptly shutting it down. Guarantee there won't be any way to transition your collection over either.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

Aetherworks Marvel just got banned. What's Next?

[Claymore]

Did you have to buy packs/cards in Duels? My guess is the client isn't going anywhere, but they'll eventually shut the server down and provide no updates.

I imagine they'll have a couple more escapees or broken cards in the next set or two depending on when they went to the printers, but they'll have constant generic answers in Standard through Core sets. Next year. So likely a few more bannings.

Pithing Needle will probably be in every core set from now until Wizards decides to nix Core sets again, since that's the most efficient answer to whatever Standard-broken Planeswalker or pushed mechanic permanent they make is.

I'm a little disappointed by the new Single Set direction, only because that will accelerate how fast they abandon a cool mechanic or theme. Something like Energy or Landfall will get its 15 or so cards in the set, and then nothing for 3 years when they do Return to the Zendikar Timeshare 2020 with MegaLandfall.

Edit: They mention they're not having a B&R announcement until August, after Pro Tour Hour of Dry Season, so are they skipping an announcement?

[maharis]

I'm ambivalent about all these changes. I don't think the set rotation schedule is entirely to blame.

They put tons of restrictions on their own game design (no prison elements, no good removal, no complexity at common/uncommon thus making the rares and mythics superpowered effect smorgasbords) and then end up in the same position they would be if they made an OP block like mirrodin/urza/original Zen and have to ban a ton of stuff.

If anything, this has been worse than the previous standard bannings because the sets are so underpowered that every time they whack one mole another one pops up because of the lack of safety valves. Can't wait to see what's 40% of standard over the next few weeks.

They make way too many decisions based on what the people who buy their cards at Target think and not enough based on what people who go to LGSes and buy singles and support the tournament network think. You can't design away all the feel-bads and then there's feel-worse when cards get banned.

[MaximumC]

Aetherworks Marvel just got banned. What's Next?

Merquadian Masques, Kamigawa, or Theros, I imagine. I'm not optimistic.


So.. yeah. Got back in because they were doing a real cycling block again.. but you can't play a cycling deck anymore, even in standard, because they didn't reprint Slide or Rift or anything playable because.. reasons. Today's B&R did nothing to address the real problems I've seen with the format and just, their entire design direction right now. Don't even get me started on what a mess digital is. Right now it's Eternal: Play Brainstorm. Modern: Play garbage in a big format with zero answers, so it's either speed kill or ramp/cheat to stupidity. Standard: Play broken card of the week until it gets banned then move to the next one, because answers=LOL.


See what you have to do is play the Best Format: Vintage.

[Zombie]

I'm ambivalent about all these changes. I don't think the set rotation schedule is entirely to blame.

They put tons of restrictions on their own game design (no prison elements, no good removal, no complexity at common/uncommon thus making the rares and mythics superpowered effect smorgasbords) and then end up in the same position they would be if they made an OP block like mirrodin/urza/original Zen and have to ban a ton of stuff.

If anything, this has been worse than the previous standard bannings because the sets are so underpowered that every time they whack one mole another one pops up because of the lack of safety valves. Can't wait to see what's 40% of standard over the next few weeks.

One of the more interesting things about TS-Lor was that good number of good decks ran really heavily on uncommons. Elf Rock being a particularily key example, let alone sillier decks like Elfball. That block had tons of interesting stuff at lower rarities. I'd like to see cycles like Teachings/Grudge/Blink/Soot/Thrill and just solid uncommons. We got stuff like Kitchen Finks, Ashenmoor Gouger, Imperious Perfect, Flame Javelin, Firespout, Harmonize, Careful Consideration, Heritage Druid, Shriekmaw, Sage's Dousing. Hell, common had a ton of real power: Rune Snag, Teachings cycle, Skred, Into the North, Incinerate, Gleeful Sabotage, Wall of Roots, Search for Tomorrow, Think Twice, Spellstutter Sprite, Mulldrifter, just tons of stuff.

[Barook]

I'm a little disappointed by the new Single Set direction, only because that will accelerate how fast they abandon a cool mechanic or theme. Something like Energy or Landfall will get its 15 or so cards in the set, and then nothing for 3 years when they do Return to the Zendikar Timeshare 2020 with MegaLandfall.
It's going to make certain mechanics even more parasitic, that's for sure. It's also a shame that some really cool mechanics (e.g. colorless mana) will get thrown under the bus due change for the sake of change. I'm sceptical that this change isn't going to cause new massive problems.

[Claymore]

Now we have Aether Revolt, where the set is so underpowered that Fatal Push ($8-9) is the most 3rd most expensive card in the set.

[sadface]

That gif just confuses the shit out of me, honestly. I'm not really understanding the rotation period.

Standard rotates once per year, one year (i.e. 4 sets) at a time. When the fall set of 2017 (Ixalan) is released, all sets older than the fall set of 2016 (BFZ, OGW, SOI, EMN) rotate out of Standard. When the fall set of 2018 is released ("Soup"), all sets older than the fall set of 2017 (KLD, AER, AKH, HOU) will rotate. And so on.

[Fox]

Now we have Aether Revolt, where the set is so underpowered that Fatal Push ($8-9) is the most 3rd most expensive card in the set.

The set with energy is underpowered; say what you will but R&D have nailed irony.

[Richard Cheese]

Did you have to buy packs/cards in Duels? My guess is the client isn't going anywhere, but they'll eventually shut the server down and provide no updates.


You don't have to, you can grind the in-game currency pretty easily. The packs are also semi-random, you're guaranteed to get a whole set in a certain number of packs, and never more than the playable amount of a single card. So if you really wanted to have a set or even certain cards the day it came out, you could spend something like $30-$40 and be done with it.

Maybe part of the issue is that they weren't monetizing it enough?

[Lord Seth]

The banning of Aetherworks Marvel confuses me greatly. Yes, the deck is dominant. But only about as much as Monoblack Devotion or Abzan were (the latter rested comfortably around 30% for about one and a half years). The especially odd thing is that a big reason for the deck's power is Ulamog, who's due to rotate out in a few months. Why not just tough it out and let rotation take care of it?

EDIT: Upon reflection, it's possible they had concerns regarding incoming cards interacting with Aetherworks Marvel like did Ulamog, which I guess makes some sense if true. I'm a little surprised that such a thing isn't mentioned in the banning announcement, though... they use a lot of words to talk about it, but don't answer that obvious question.

[Lord Seth]

So.. yeah. Got back in because they were doing a real cycling block again.. but you can't play a cycling deck anymore, even in standard, because they didn't reprint Slide or Rift or anything playable because.. reasons.I'll be fair and say that there might be better cards enabling cycling in Hour of Devastation.


Don't even get me started on what a mess digital is. Right now it's Eternal: Play Brainstorm. Modern: Play garbage in a big format with zero answerx, so it's either speed kill or ramp/cheat to stupidity. Standard: Play broken card of the week until it gets banned then move to the next one, because answers=LOL.Modern doesn't have zero answers; in fact, it's got some some great answers. Thoughtseize, Path to Exile, and Fatal Push (with fetchlands) might not be at the level of Force of Will or Swords to Plowshares but they're still pretty great answer cards. The problem is lack of variety. Path to Exile is an excellent removal card, possibly the second best ever printed after Swords to Plowshares... but White has basically nothing else going on in the format, so the card is underutilized. Thoughtseize and Fatal Push are great, but aren't of any use to you if you're not in Black. In contrast, Blue gets stuck with Mana Leak as its best counterspell. What the format needs are better White cards (Stoneforge Mystic is looking more and more like a good unban) so you can get more usage out of Path to Exile, and a counterspell better than freaking Mana Leak. That would better diversify answers so they can be played in a greater variety of decks.


Gonna sell out again and never look back I think. New World Order has been an unmitigated disaster, it fueled growth for awhile, but all them chickens coming home now.New World Order was just the idea that new players get scared off by complicated or confusing cards, so all the complicated or confusing cards should be put in higher rarities so they don't see them as often. That's literally all it was. It had nothing to do with general design of cards. One can perhaps blame New World Order for higher prices (because cards that are confusing or complicated tend to be good cards, which results in higher rare/mythic rare proliferation), but that's really it.


Now we have Aether Revolt, where the set is so underpowered that Fatal Push ($8-9) is the most 3rd most expensive card in the set.I don't know if it's a lack of power so much as a lack of confidence. All these bannings in Standard are making people more leery of investing in the format, which means lower prices.

Fatal Push, on the other hand, is a Modern staple. People have a lot more confidence in investing in that format, so it manages to retain value because so much of its demand doesn't come from Standard play.

[Zombie]

New World Order was just the idea that new players get scared off by complicated or confusing cards, so all the complicated or confusing cards should be put in higher rarities so they don't see them as often. That's literally all it was. It had nothing to do with general design of cards. One can perhaps blame New World Order for higher prices (because cards that are confusing or complicated tend to be good cards, which results in higher rare/mythic rare proliferation), but that's really it.

NWO came with Shards, if memory serves, and at least to me Alara block was the first truly different one - Lorwyn was a beginning of something new, to be sure, but it still straddled a line.

[Lord Seth]

NWO came with Shards, if memory serves, and at least to me Alara block was the first truly different one - Lorwyn was a beginning of something new, to be sure, but it still straddled a line.But as noted, "New World Order" had nothing to do with card design, set design, or anything like that. It was entirely about what rarity cards were given based on their perceived complexity.

Granted, giving that a name as dramatic as "New World Order" (which I do think is a stupid name) does make it sound like it was a lot more than it was, which may be why players keep referring to it as whatever they don't like about modern design, but all New World Order was about was adjustment of rarity.

[Darkenslight]

The banning of Aetherworks Marvel confuses me greatly. Yes, the deck is dominant. But only about as much as Monoblack Devotion or Abzan were (the latter rested comfortably around 30% for about one and a half years). The especially odd thing is that a big reason for the deck's power is Ulamog, who's due to rotate out in a few months. Why not just tough it out and let rotation take care of it?

EDIT: Upon reflection, it's possible they had concerns regarding incoming cards interacting with Aetherworks Marvel like did Ulamog, which I guess makes some sense if true. I'm a little surprised that such a thing isn't mentioned in the banning announcement, though... they use a lot of words to talk about it, but don't answer that obvious question.

Well, there's that new Nicol Bolas guy...he seems a little good on Turn 4.

[rufus]

...
Granted, giving that a name as dramatic as "New World Order" (which I do think is a stupid name) does make it sound like it was a lot more than it was, which may be why players keep referring to it as whatever they don't like about modern design, but all New World Order was about was adjustment of rarity.

I think that part of the issue is that the phrase "new world order" already means something. So we have "New World Order" which is the rarity/complexity of cards thing, and we have "new world order" which is the shift to higher efficiency threats in the form of spell-creatures and planeswalkers and slower enablers and answers (or whatever else it could mean in context).

[Crimhead]

New World Order is the flagship of the (unnamed) design philosophy which puts pleasing newbies above satisfying experienced players.

Can we please drop this pedantic bull shit of correcting everybody who uses the term more loosely? What purpose is that supposed to serve?

[Barook]

New set stuff (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/25th-anniversary-announcement-day-2017-06-14?)

The more or less important stuff
- FTV: Transform, aka flipcards (aka we reprint Baby Jace - yawn)
- Masters25 next year
- new Unset in December (who the fuck buys this shit?)
- Return to Dominaria April 2018 (given their track record with Return sets, I don't have my hopes up)

[Crimhead]

- new Unset in December (who the fuck buys this shit?)


If there's a silver bordered token plus a full art basic in every set, I think it will sell.

Nice that they're finally doing a fourth Unset, though. Hope it's called 'Unzipped'.

[Barook]

If there's a silver bordered token plus a full art basic in every set, I think it will sell.
Full basic art wasn't enough the last times. This is going to fail horribly.

At least there's hope Maro gets hit by the backlash since the third Un-set has been his pet project for years. If it was greenlight, then it was because of him nagging for a while now.

Edit: There are only 4 months between Iconic Masters and 25th Anniversary Masters. What the hell are they going to reprint as chase cards at this pace?

[Crimhead]

Full basic art wasn't enough the last times. This is going to fail horribly.
Last time they didn't give us tokens. The combination might be just enough push it - especially if the tokens are double-sided and they give us things that are used in popular constructed decks.

Anyway, Legacy players are probably not the target. This is for the kids who missed the last three Unsets.

Regarding other news, it sure would be sweet if they would break tradition and print a few new cards for the duel decks.

[sadface]

Nice that they're finally doing a fourth Unset, though. Hope it's called 'Unzipped'.

It's the third un-set, and it's called 'Unstable'.

[maharis]

- FTV: Transform, aka flipcards (aka we reprint Baby Jace - yawn)


Selling the shit out of these at the GP then, hope some modern deck is using them

[Crimhead]

It's the third un-set, and it's called 'Unstable'.

Unlimited
Unglued
Unhinged
Unstable
Get's 'em every time!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


Number of Cards: 216-ish

LMAO! :laugh:

[supremePINEAPPLE]

New set stuff (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/25th-anniversary-announcement-day-2017-06-14?)

The more or less important stuff
- FTV: Transform, aka flipcards (aka we reprint Baby Jace - yawn)
- Masters25 next year
- new Unset in December (who the fuck buys this shit?)
- Return to Dominaria April 2018 (given their track record with Return sets, I don't have my hopes up)Garfield has been confirmed to be on the design team for dominaria so that's cool at least.

[Barook]

The only way this could realistically sell is they included non-tournament legal, silver-bordered Reserve List cards for the casual Commander crowd who don't care about borders/legality.


Garfield has been confirmed to be on the design team for dominaria so that's cool at least.
This actually gets my hopes up. Garfield knows his shit, as he has proven when he came back for the original Ravnica and Innistrad sets.

[Crimhead]

Garfield has been confirmed to be on the design team for dominaria so that's cool at least.
Best news yet.
I wasn't even excited until now. :)

[Barook]

So this is from the official Ixalan page - Pirate Vraska fighting dinosaurs (http://i.imgur.com/yL1Xh2l.jpg).

This is silly enough to be actually awesome. At least it isn't "Jacetice League joins a new plane to ruin everything yet again!" plot.

[phonics]

Best news yet.
I wasn't even excited until now. :)

I think the last set he was on was INN?

And what on earth are they going to put in FTV transform? I had to look up to see what they could possible put in that set.

5 planeswalkers
delver
avacyn
bruna/ gisella
hanweir battlements/ garrison?
huntmaster?
titi?
elbrus?
garruk?

[Lord Seth]

New set stuff (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/25th-anniversary-announcement-day-2017-06-14?)

The more or less important stuff
- FTV: Transform, aka flipcards (aka we reprint Baby Jace - yawn)
- Masters25 next year
- new Unset in December (who the fuck buys this shit?)The problem of Gotcha cards aside, Unhinged was actually a lot of fun in Limited.


- Return to Dominaria April 2018 (given their track record with Return sets, I don't have my hopes up)I'm not sure I'd call it "return" in the way previous sets were, because Dominaria was a much more varied world than the others. Mirrodin is just Artifact Land, Innistrad is Spooky Land, Ravnica is City Land, and Zendikar is Land Land. Dominaria didn't have any themes on it, which was actually nice because it made it feel more real and less like one of the gimmick planets they'd visit in an episode of Star Trek ("A Piece of the Action" perhaps being the quintessential example of what I'm talking about). You could do a lot of things in Dominaria, as shown by how long the game took place there (with excursions to other planes the exception rather than the rule). This actually makes me happy to be going back, but I hope we go back and stay there for a while, rather than it just being a "hey, you remember this place, right? Okay, moving on..."

Richard Garfield being back does sound cool though.

[Barook]

The problem of Gotcha cards aside, Unhinged was actually a lot of fun in Limited.

I'm not sure I'd call it "return" in the way previous sets were, because Dominaria was a much more varied world than the others. Mirrodin is just Artifact Land, Innistrad is Spooky Land, Ravnica is City Land, and Zendikar is Land Land. Dominaria didn't have any themes on it, which was actually nice because it made it feel more real and less like one of the gimmick planets they'd visit in an episode of Star Trek ("A Piece of the Action" perhaps being the quintessential example of what I'm talking about). You could do a lot of things in Dominaria, as shown by how long the game took place there (with excursions to other planes the exception rather than the rule). This actually makes me happy to be going back, but I hope we go back and stay there for a while, rather than it just being a "hey, you remember this place, right? Okay, moving on..."

Richard Garfield being back does sound cool though.
What's the state of Dominaria after the we've last seen it? The Time Rifts are closed, but shouldn't the slivers still be furiously multiplying?

[Kanti]

NWO came with Shards, if memory serves, and at least to me Alara block was the first truly different one - Lorwyn was a beginning of something new, to be sure, but it still straddled a line.

Lorwyn was amazing. How could you hate on Lorwyn?

The EV out of cracking a box of Lorwyn or Morningtide is insane. Definately wish I would have kept some boxes in my closet, fml. And it should have been obvious, as it had powerhouse rares like Cryptic Command and Bitterblossom for the standard enviroment, and shit like O-Ring to Thoughtseize for eternal. Not counting the value of like Heritage Druid, Nettle Sentinel, Tarfire, the list freaking goes on.

[Crimhead]

What's the state of Dominaria after the we've last seen it? The Time Rifts are closed, but shouldn't the slivers still be furiously multiplying?

As far as I know.

But this could be millennia in the future. Or Jace could be traveling back in time to save Dominaria - or to loot the Academy.
Lots of play.


Lorwyn was amazing. How could you hate on Lorwyn?

I don't hate it my any stretch. But...


It was the beginning of the end of combo support.
It was the beginning of the end of draw/go.
It was the beginning of the end of diversity in Standard.

[(nameless one)]

So this is from the official Ixalan page - Pirate Vraska fighting dinosaurs (http://i.imgur.com/yL1Xh2l.jpg).

This is silly enough to be actually awesome. At least it isn't "Jacetice League joins a new plane to ruin everything yet again!" plot.


This Ixalan thing is straight out of Hearthstone's Un'goro set.

[ESG]

Unlimited
Unglued
Unhinged
Unstable
Get's 'em every time!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Unfunny.

[Barook]

This Ixalan thing is straight out of Hearthstone's Un'goro set.
Maybe it's just a coincidence? Un'goro was announced in February 2017.

We already got a picture of pirate Vraska in December 2016, when Ixalan/Explorers of Ixalan was spoiled with a different name:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/atlazan-an-atlantean-plane

[Crimhead]

This Ixalan thing is straight out of Hearthstone's Un'goro set.

Hearthstone has Un-sets too now?

[Claymore]

Dominaria was wrecked by the planar overlay, and the Sliver Queen (plus the majority of her brood) was killed when a volcano was overlayed on top of her lair. Some reports are that the remaining slivers were eradicated during the battles of Invasion.

The Riptide project on Otaria resurrected the slivers and they bred wildly without the control of Volrath's Hivestones or the Queen. Slivers were drawn to the Mirari's magic pulses because they thought it was their Queen, so they were wiped out again when the Mirari exploded to create Karona. That explosion apparently merged several into the Sliver Overlord. Some speculation is that after Karona died, the Overlord separated again.

So the remaining slivers were those that survived that Mirari apocalypse and others that timeshifted in from the overlay (shadow sliver). The "dying plane of Dominaria" was mana deficient, so slivers evolved to mimic other species (vampires, basal thrulls, birds of paradise). They were controlled by a few walkers (Freyalise, Lord Windgrace) and the Weaver King. Those walkers and the King died or whatever, so again the slivers just continued to multiply and search for a new leader.

I don't know how it fits in, but the plane of Shandalar has both the humanoid slivers and the original sliver type, plus the Hivelord which controls both.

So as far as I know, the official stance (probably by the old books) is that the Riptide project resurrected some slivers, the Overlord is gone, and slivers otherwise continued to breed out of control across Dominaria since they did not have the Queen there to control them anymore. As Dominaria recovered, I imagine the slivers surged in numbers, but the plane would have adapted by now to be able to keep the slivers in check. Sliver Legion hinted at a new sliver leader being present on Dominaria, so we will probably see that.

[tescrin]

What's the state of Dominaria after the we've last seen it? The Time Rifts are closed, but shouldn't the slivers still be furiously multiplying?

Nah, wizards Fucked Them To Death™

20 years of power creep meets Kavu. I don't think anyone wants to see usable Kavu :D

[Lord Seth]

I don't hate it my any stretch. But...


It was the beginning of the end of combo support.
It was the beginning of the end of draw/go.
It was the beginning of the end of diversity in Standard.
Huh? Faeries was the best Draw-Go deck since Psychatog.

Heck, even that wasn't the end. Draw-Go was actually pretty good during the Return to Ravnica Standards thanks to Sphinx's Revelation.

[Hanni]

Does this mean we finally get Urza as a Planeswalker?

[Barook]

Does this mean we finally get Urza as a Planeswalker?
But Urza is, you know, dead. If anything, we would get him in some kind of Commander/Eternal-related product. Blind Seer was a total troll card.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Zombie Urza, easy. He could even be Liliana's sidekick in the gatewatch!

[Hanni]

Why does it matter if he died in the original story? They could go back in time, at least long enough to print Urza as a Planeswalker, damnit.

[Barook]

Zombie Urza, easy. He could even be Liliana's sidekick in the gatewatch!
I'm pretty sure his head (which was kept alive by the powerstones) was vaporized alongside Gerrard and the rest of the Legacy (minus Karn) when Gerrard fired of the Legacy Weapon by inserting the powerstones into Karn (which also turned Karn into a Planeswalker).

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=19135&type=card

[Hanni]

I'm pretty sure his head (which was kept alive by the powerstones) was vaporized alongside Gerrard and the rest of the Legacy (minus Karn) when Gerrard fired of the Legacy Weapon by inserting the powerstones into Karn (which also turned Karn into a Planeswalker).

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=19135&type=card

Then he could be a Spirit. Stop trying to kill the dream.

[Kanti]

Shoudn't Tahngarth, Sisay, and Squee be having their own adventures on the Victory? I would be excited for Squee 2.0, a new series of ships that are playable, and some Sisay draw spells plz.