4 Card Blind [Archive] - Page 15

Asthereal

01-21-2021, 09:41 AM

Silk's too slow, so here's the decks for round 1.
Also, warm welcome to our newest player, Serguei!

DECKS FOR ROUND 1 OF SEASON 9: Deviant Legacy - Part 2

The rule for Canadian Backbuild: A loss nets you 3 points and a win nets you zero. You still play optimally to win. Your deck must win both OTP and OTD against the Canadians (Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Grizzly Bears, Balduvian Bears).

Our entries:
1. Asthereal (TO): Grove of the Burnwillows, Mountain, Punishing Fire, Volcanic Dragon
2. Wrath of Pie: Timberline Ridge, Helix Pinnacle, Mugging, Mugging
3. Reeplcheep: Pine Barrens, Deathmark, Deathmark, Helix Pinnacle
4. FTW: Veldt, Helix Pinnacle, Traproot Kami, Green Scarab
5. dte: Wirewood Symbiote, Ketria Triome, Saprazzan Legate, Saprazzan Legate
6. jhhdk: Secluded Steppe, Secluded Steppe, Circle of protection: Green, Mesa Pegasus
7. H: Swamp, Reaver Drone, Deathmark, Deathmark
8. alphastryk: Subterranean Hangar, Glistening Oil, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Helix Pinnacle
9. Tylert: Forest, Sulfur vent, Budoka gardener, Jade mage
10. GoblinSmashmaster: Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Bear Cub, Ayula, Queen Among Bears
11. Serguei: Subterranean Hangar, Perish, Mental agony, Acolyte of Xathrid
12. maxx!: Karplusan Forest, Molten Slagheap, Elvish Archers, Dead Ringers

Please post your scores and cross-check with the opponents.
I'll also be building a new Google Spreadsheet for the season, so you can enter your scores there as well.
URL: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YwJGkRwet2eSSm2aVe8eq1OcIW1MFzrgrpcBk71woXA/edit?usp=sharing

dte

01-21-2021, 10:09 AM

5. dte: Wirewood Symbiote, Ketria Triome, Saprazzan Legate, Saprazzan Legate

Me, hating on mountains and their scary slopes.
And sporting my favourite insect :)

1. Asthereal (TO): Grove of the Burnwillows, Mountain, Punishing Fire, Volcanic Dragon
0. The merfolks eat dragons that stay in hands at breakfast. not a great start.

2. Wrath of Pie: Timberline Ridge, Helix Pinnacle, Mugging, Mugging
6. You mugg the insect and take forever to win.
6

3. Reeplcheep: Pine Barrens, Deathmark, Deathmark, Helix Pinnacle
6. You kill the insect and win slowly.
12

4. FTW: Veldt, Helix Pinnacle, Traproot Kami, Green Scarab
6. You get a scarab that protects you from other isects.
18

5. dte: Wirewood Symbiote, Ketria Triome, Saprazzan Legate, Saprazzan Legate
Me.

6. jhhdk: Secluded Steppe, Secluded Steppe, Circle of protection: Green, Mesa Pegasus
6. you've got you insect repellant.
24

7. H: Swamp, Reaver Drone, Deathmark, Deathmark
6. Kill the insect, kill me.
30

8. alphastryk: Subterranean Hangar, Glistening Oil, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Helix Pinnacle
6. Insecticide oil for the win.
36

9. Tylert: Forest, Sulfur vent, Budoka gardener, Jade mage
6. your creatures beat the insect.
42

10. GoblinSmashmaster: Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Bear Cub, Ayula, Queen Among Bears
6. You play the scariest card, a basic mountain. But I cannot beat a 4/4.
48

11. Serguei: Subterranean Hangar, Perish, Mental agony, Acolyte of Xathrid
6. Perish on a lone symbiote does the trick. And welcome!
54

12. maxx!: Karplusan Forest, Molten Slagheap, Elvish Archers, Dead Ringers
6. Elvish archer >> Wirewood symbiote, at least here.
60.

That went much better than expected!
And much better than my other decks:
Noble hierarch, rainbow vale, hunt the hunter, hunt the hunter
and Homarid shaman, sand silos, Svyelunite Temple, Svyelunite Temple (that one was because I could do a full fallen empires deck, and I really do love fallen empire as an extension).

Tylert

01-21-2021, 10:21 AM

Sapprazan legate. Nice find.

Here are the decks I did not play:

Subteranean hangar
Slitherhead
Deathmark
Deathmark

rushwood grove
Mercadian bazaar
Sylvan advocate
headlong rush

Fountain of cho
Lotus petal
Trueheart duelist
djeru's resolve

Forest
Forest
Safehold elite
setessan skirmisher

Plaine
Mana tithe
Mana tithe
memnite

Cloudcrest Lake
Cloudcrest Lake
onction
Brimaz vanguard

Fountain of cho
Thraben valiant
Hope charm
Assaillant avemain

Plaine
Plaine
Thraben valiant
Rune de garde verte

FTW

01-21-2021, 10:53 AM

4. FTW: Veldt, Helix Pinnacle, Traproot Kami, Green Scarab

tl;dr - The fastest I can possibly win is the upkeep of Turn 202 (after adding the 100th counter on turn 201).
Unless you have a Forest, my creature is a 0/0 and I'm completely defenseless to any threat.
If you have both a Forest and green permanent, then I have a 2/3 reach wall.

1. Asthereal (TO): Punishing Fire quickly kills me. LL 6-0
2. Wrath of Pie: Ah, the mirror. Well played. WL 3-3
3. Reeplcheep: Whoa, what is this speedy aggro deck that wins before turn 110? LL 6-0
5. dte: Forest + green creature, good tech. WW 0-6
6. jhhdk: No forests, so my wall is a 0/0. LL 6-0
7. H: Yikes, a fatty! LL 6-0
8. alphastryk: Another speedy aggro deck. LL 6-0
9. Tylert: Forest + green creatures, and you can't even go wide with multiple tokens. Nice deck. WW 0-6
10. GoblinSmashmaster: Luckily I have Green Scarab instead of Green Ward so your 4/4 smashes me. LL 6-0
11. Serguei: Welcome! Cool deck. You need 41 mana to kill me, which means you win well before turn 100. LL 6-0
12. maxx!: If you played Taiga then I'd be in trouble. As is, I can't stop Archers. LL 6-0

51 points (5 wins, 17 losses)

alphastryk

01-21-2021, 10:56 AM

I see I failed to produce the slowest deck :laugh:. Who knew golfishing on turn 109 was too fast! Also, My removal was not narrow enough clearly.

1. Asthereal (TO): Grove of the Burnwillows, Mountain, Punishing Fire, Volcanic Dragon
I see you brought a 3 card blind deck. However, Grove + Fire wins before my Pinnacle is completed (my goldfish is turn 109). LL

6 points

2. Wrath of Pie: Timberline Ridge, Helix Pinnacle, Mugging, Mugging
I see you have constructed an even slower Pinnacle deck. WW

0 points

3. Reeplcheep: Pine Barrens, Deathmark, Deathmark, Helix Pinnacle
Your Pinnacle is completed on your turn 101, but I cannot complete mine until my turn 109 thanks to my terrible color filtering Kaleidoscope. LL

6 points

4. FTW: Veldt, Helix Pinnacle, Traproot Kami, Green Scarab

I see you also come rom the slow Pinnacle school, but yours is slower than mine. WW

0 points

5. dte: Wirewood Symbiote, Ketria Triome, Saprazzan Legate, Saprazzan Legate
My removal is too good. Oil kills the Symbiote and your Legates are blanks. Nice deck. WW

0 points

6. jhhdk: Secluded Steppe, Secluded Steppe, Circle of protection: Green, Mesa Pegasus
My removal is too good. Oil kills the Pegasus. WW

0 points

7. H: Swamp, Reaver Drone, Deathmark, Deathmark
My removal is too good. Oil kills the Drone. WW

0 points

8. alphastryk: Subterranean Hangar, Glistening Oil, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Helix Pinnacle
This is me!

9. Tylert: Forest, Sulfur vent, Budoka gardener, Jade mage
Once again, my removal is too good. WW

0 points

10. GoblinSmashmaster: Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Bear Cub, Ayula, Queen Among Bears
I love the idea here of being as close as possible to the deck we all have to beat. EDIT: Because you play to win and make a 4/4, Glistening Oil can't get rid of it your threats before I get poisoned. LL

6 points

11. Serguei: Subterranean Hangar, Perish, Mental agony, Acolyte of Xathrid
I don't think I can beat a discard spell, so Mental Agony takes away my ability to win. EDIT: However, I can hold onto my Oil and kill your Acolyte with it to force draws. DD

2 points

12. maxx!: Karplusan Forest, Molten Slagheap, Elvish Archers, Dead Ringers
Foiled again by my removal. WW

0 points

total: 20 points. Clearly my removal was not nearly narrow enough, and I also was not the slowest deck. Whoops!

Tylert

01-21-2021, 11:26 AM

1. Asthereal (TO): Grove of the Burnwillows, Mountain, Punishing Fire, Volcanic Dragon
2. Wrath of Pie: Timberline Ridge, Helix Pinnacle, Mugging, Mugging
3. Reeplcheep: Pine Barrens, Deathmark, Deathmark, Helix Pinnacle
4. FTW: Veldt, Helix Pinnacle, Traproot Kami, Green Scarab
5. dte: Wirewood Symbiote, Ketria Triome, Saprazzan Legate, Saprazzan Legate
6. jhhdk: Secluded Steppe, Secluded Steppe, Circle of protection: Green, Mesa Pegasus
7. H: Swamp, Reaver Drone, Deathmark, Deathmark
8. alphastryk: Subterranean Hangar, Glistening Oil, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Helix Pinnacle
9. Tylert: Forest, Sulfur vent, Budoka gardener, Jade mage
10. GoblinSmashmaster: Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Bear Cub, Ayula, Queen Among Bears
11. Serguei: Subterranean Hangar, Perish, Mental agony, Acolyte of Xathrid
12. maxx!: Karplusan Forest, Molten Slagheap, Elvish Archers, Dead Ringers

1. Asthereal: I think I can't kill you before you kill all my boys. 6-0 --> 6.
2. Wrath of Pie: You can't cast mugging two turns in a row. That means that I nned to play Gardener first, You kill it, then I can play jade mage the turn after you can't kill it and I can make a 1/1 to win... well loose 0-6 --> 6
3. Reeplcheep: I can't play jade mage and have it survive a turn to make a 1/1. I loose both! 6-0 --> 12
4. FTW: OTD on turn 4, you'll cast Green scarab on your 0/1 and I won't be able to kill you anymore. Pinnacle will win this. 0-6 --> 18
5. dte: Nice tech. 0-6 --> 18
6. jhhdk: I'll do first damage in both games but you will hold at bay my 2/1. If I attack with my 1/1 you block, If I don't, You stay in defense. 2-2 --> 20
7. H. You kill my threats and win. 6-0 --> 26
8. Alphastryk: You kill my 3 creatures towards T11 on the draw. 6-0 --> 32
9. Me.
10. Goblinsmashmaster: A 4/4 is too big for me. Can't Kill it and survice. 6-0 --> 38
11. Serguei: I Can win OTP barely by playing jade mage first. You have to Mental agony before using perish. Once you have used mental agony, I can make a 3/3 EOT and as you are at 12, I have 4 turns to kill you that is just enough. OTD, You win just before dying. 3/3 --> 41
12. Maxx!: I can't commit more than one creature to win. But you are allways the first one attacking because of first strike you win the race and I can't block. 6-0 --> 47

Total = 47

VS Serguei
T1 = Vents. Hangar.
T2 = Forest, Mage. H1.
T3 = 20/18. H2.
T4 = 20/16. H3.
T5 = 20/14. H4.
T6 = 20/12. Mental agony 18/12, 1/1 EOT.
T7 = 18/9. H1.
T8 = 18/6. H2.
T9 = 18/3. H3.
T10 = 18/0. Perish.

I first found the deathmark deck. Which was clearly meta dependent... but It meant that if I could play a green creature I'd loose. So I went to sylvan advocate (2/3 vigilance) + first strike which is nice.
Then I realized a 2/3 would be too good. and went to Trueheart duelist + Djeru's resolve. FInally I found that 3 2/2 bodies were too good and went to a green persist strategy while also finding Brimaz vanguard + Onction. I choose to play a variation of the Two 2/(1 or 2) bodies + a 1/1 that was using green creature to be beaten by anti green decks...
Some decks could have been good depending on the meta: 2/1 vigilance + Protection from green, 1/1 for 0 + two mana tithe, the deathmark deck. But knowing that, Playing lands that can't store mana and green creatures was an easy choice.
I failed to find something that could only win vs 2 2/2 or a mountain thought like the sapprazan legate or the defender that has a toughness equal to the number of forests in play.

My worst card that was usefull was anoint. Used on brimaz vanguard, it could make it trade twice vs bears while getting a 1/1.

FTW

01-21-2021, 11:51 AM

Hahaha these decks are all hilarious.

I see I failed to produce the slowest deck :laugh:. Who knew golfishing on turn 109 was too fast! Also, My removal was not narrow enough clearly.

When you thought you had the slowest, I was curious if you used some slow filtering tech to make it harder to get mana. Kaleidoscope is a great find! I had a version with an off-color land + Chromatic Sphere (delays 2 turns), but that left only 1 slot to beat 2 bears. I thought that would mean playing a card that stops too many other decks, so I went with my "faster" version with worse defenses.

Homarid shaman, sand silos, Svyelunite Temple, Svyelunite Temple (that one was because I could do a full fallen empires deck, and I really do love fallen empire as an extension).

Love the Fallen Empires throwback. I wanted to do something with Orcs but it didn't quite come together.

5. dte: Wirewood Symbiote, Ketria Triome, Saprazzan Legate, Saprazzan Legate

Legate is great tech!

I also tried out decks using threats that could only be cast against the Canadians. There are many variations, using Deepwood Legate, or relying on colored mana production from Exotic Orchard or Vesuva. But these ideas all fell flat when I considered the Canadians could just do nothing to draw. Playing a generic 1/1 is a great solution to that! I like that you also played a Forest-Mountain just to catch the other hate decks too. Smart deck!

I'll post my other decks

Control: Grove of the Burnwillows, Rishadan Port, Bazaar Trader, Sorrow's Path
This was my cheesy build using the worst card in Magic, but it is actually OP and beats too much.

Aggro: Sacred Foundry, Snow-Covered Forest, Arctic Foxes, Wall of Hope
Wall of Hope just barely survives 2 bears, and Arctic Foxes only has evasion against 2/2 fatties in snow decks... Instead of going slow, this was my attempt at most fragile win condition + most fragile defense.

Control: Veldt, Vesuva, Helix Pinnacle, Custody Battle
Custody Battle hilariously holds off 2 bears without letting you ever attack back. But this speeds up Helix Pinnacle a lot in mirrors.

Pillow Fort: Shivan Gorge, Mercadian Bazaar, Thespian's Stage, Glade Watcher
Shivan Gorge is way too fast

Prison: Rushwood Grove, Meekstone, Muraganda Petroglyphs, Helix Pinnacle
This only stops vanilla creatures, but it's a fast Helix Pinnacle.

dte

01-21-2021, 12:39 PM

8. alphastryk: Subterranean Hangar, Glistening Oil, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Helix Pinnacle
This is me!

...

10. GoblinSmashmaster: Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Bear Cub, Ayula, Queen Among Bears
I love the idea here of being as close as possible to the deck we all have to beat. It works out here, as my removal is too good. WW

0 points

You should lose (win?) that one: your removal also gives infect, so you take 4+3+2+1=10 poison counters, both OTP and OTD.

Also, quite a lot of pinnacles!

alphastryk

01-21-2021, 12:42 PM

You should lose (win?) that one: your removal also gives infect, so you take 4+3+2+1=10 poison counters, both OTP and OTD.

Also, quite a lot of pinnacles!

Aha because GoblinSmashmaster has to play to win and lead with Ayula then make it a 4/4. You're right, updating results.

When you thought you had the slowest, I was curious if you used some slow filtering tech to make it harder to get mana. Kaleidoscope is a great find! I had a version with an off-color land + Chromatic Sphere (delays 2 turns), but that left only 1 slot to beat 2 bears. I thought that would mean playing a card that stops too many other decks, so I went with my "faster" version with worse defenses.

I only know about the Kaleidoscope from the "joy" of getting one in a Visions pack once.

Here's a few of my other terrible ideas:

I should maybe played this horrible wall plan instead of Glistening Oil
Fountain of Cho, One-Eyed Scarecrow, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Helix Pinnacle

I also had some decks that looped Rath's Edge with a storage land and Wheel of Sun and Moon but they were very slightly faster than the Helix Pinnacle decks.

Wrath of Pie

01-21-2021, 01:10 PM

2. Wrath of Pie: Timberline Ridge, Helix Pinnacle, Mugging, Mugging

1. Asthereal (TO): Grove of the Burnwillows, Mountain, Punishing Fire, Volcanic Dragon LL - You win way too fast for this format.
3. Reeplcheep: Pine Barrens, Deathmark, Deathmark, Helix Pinnacle LL - I debated something like this, then realized that being the slower Helix Pinnacle hand was worth way more than the narrower removal spell.
4. FTW: Veldt, Helix Pinnacle, Traproot Kami, Green Scarab WL - This is way more clever than my entry and probably what I should have played.
5. dte: Wirewood Symbiote, Ketria Triome, Saprazzan Legate, Saprazzan Legate WW
6. jhhdk: Secluded Steppe, Secluded Steppe, Circle of protection: Green, Mesa Pegasus WW
7. H: Swamp, Reaver Drone, Deathmark, Deathmark WW
8. alphastryk: Subterranean Hangar, Glistening Oil, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Helix Pinnacle LL
9. Tylert: Forest, Sulfur vent, Budoka gardener, Jade mage LL - I can't mug three creatures.
10. GoblinSmashmaster: Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Bear Cub, Ayula, Queen Among Bears WD - Staring contests are what Backbuild are all about.
11. Serguei: Subterranean Hangar, Perish, Mental agony, Acolyte of Xathrid DD
12. maxx!: Karplusan Forest, Molten Slagheap, Elvish Archers, Dead Ringers WW

3d9l = 30 points

I started with the classic Ensnaring Bridge/Copper Tablet strategy, but it won too fast and I did not expect creatures to be relevant (turns out I was wrong), thus the double Mugging with Helix Pinnacle. I dismissed Deathmark because being slower in the Helix Pinnacle mirror was going to be important.

I also considered the hilarious of Death of a Thousand Stings as a win condition, but couldn't find anything to make it workable.

Tylert

01-21-2021, 01:48 PM

A

I should maybe played this horrible wall plan instead of Glistening Oil
Fountain of Cho, One-Eyed Scarecrow, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Helix Pinnacle

Man you wanted to play a 2/3??? that is way too strong.

alphastryk

01-21-2021, 01:57 PM

Man you wanted to play a 2/3??? that is way too strong.

It can't attack! I'm basically playing a Moat, which also got crossed off my list for being too good.

jhhdk

01-21-2021, 02:00 PM

1. Asthereal (TO): Grove of the Burnwillows, Mountain, Punishing Fire, Volcanic Dragon
Drat! Your removal is just too good and I am unfortunately defenseless against recuring burn to the face. 6 - 0

2. Wrath of Pie: Timberline Ridge, Helix Pinnacle, Mugging, Mugging
Drat! Your removal kills my offence and you eventually win with Helix. 6 - 0

3. Reeplcheep: Pine Barrens, Deathmark, Deathmark, Helix Pinnacle
Again my beater dies to removal and helix goes the distance. 6 - 0

4. FTW: Veldt, Helix Pinnacle, Traproot Kami, Green Scarab
Your defence is slightly ineffective and I manage to win already on turn 22ish. 0 - 6

5. dte: Wirewood Symbiote, Ketria Triome, Saprazzan Legate, Saprazzan Legate
I am able to win, but I am a bit curious how you win against the Canadian bears? Edit: i figured it out. I forgot the bear deck had a mountain. 0 - 6

6. jhhdk: Secluded Steppe, Secluded Steppe, Circle of protection: Green, Mesa Pegasus
Myself

7. H: Swamp, Reaver Drone, Deathmark, Deathmark
Your removal kills my offence and I am utterly defenceless against Reaver Drone. 6 - 0

8. alphastryk: Subterranean Hangar, Glistening Oil, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Helix Pinnacle
Your removal kills my offence and Helix gets there on turn 400ish. 6 - 0

9. Tylert: Forest, Sulfur vent, Budoka gardener, Jade mage
It's a pretty close race, but seems like you'll win no matter how well I play. 2 - 2 Edit forgot I can block even if you can't.

10. GoblinSmashmaster: Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Bear Cub, Ayula, Queen Among Bears
Impressively narrow hate deck. You really show those bears who's boss, unfortunately my deck is too stronk for you. 0 - 6

11. Serguei: Subterranean Hangar, Perish, Mental agony, Acolyte of Xathrid
My deck is stronger than yours. I resolve all my threats before you can resolve mental agony and my 1/1 is faster than your Acolyte. 0 - 6

12. maxx!: Karplusan Forest, Molten Slagheap, Elvish Archers, Dead Ringers
My defence holds up against your onslaught and your removal is too narrow to be effective (amazingly Narrow! I should have gone with green
forestwalk creature instead and I could've had draws here).

Tylert

01-21-2021, 02:11 PM

9. Tylert: Forest, Sulfur vent, Budoka gardener, Jade mage
It's a pretty close race, but seems like you'll win no matter how well I play. 6 - 0

OTD:

T1 = Vents. Steppes.
T2 = Forest, Sage. Steppes.
T3 = Mage 20/18. Pegasus.
T4 = attack, you trade with sage, 1/1. COP.
T5 = 20/15. COP.
T6 = 20/12.

I can't damage you anymore.

So it's 2-2.

Tylert

01-21-2021, 02:22 PM

5. dte: Wirewood Symbiote, Ketria Triome, Saprazzan Legate, Saprazzan Legate
I am able to win, but I am a bit curious how you win against the Canadian bears?

Saprazzan legate is free because he has a forest and his opponent has a mountain.
He can attack with one legate and keep a 1/1 and a 1/3 in defense to kill one bear, and after that block the other one for ever.

alphastryk

01-21-2021, 02:54 PM

Saprazzan legate is free because he has a forest and his opponent has a mountain.
He can attack with one legate and keep a 1/1 and a 1/3 in defense to kill one bear, and after that block the other one for ever.

Also importantly, the Canadians can't hold the Mountain to force a draw because the 1/1 wins it then.

GoblinSmashmaster

01-21-2021, 02:54 PM

AyulaBearmaster Results for Round "UnBearable"

1. Asthereal (TO): Grove of the Burnwillows, Mountain, Punishing Fire, Volcanic Dragon
Removal :( 6-0

2. Wrath of Pie: Timberline Ridge, Helix Pinnacle, Mugging, Mugging
Removal :( 4-1

3. Reeplcheep: Pine Barrens, Deathmark, Deathmark, Helix Pinnacle
Removal :( 6-0

4. FTW: Veldt, Helix Pinnacle, Traproot Kami, Green Scarab
Grizzly smash! 0-6

5. dte: Wirewood Symbiote, Ketria Triome, Saprazzan Legate, Saprazzan Legate
Grizzly smash! 0-6

6. jhhdk: Secluded Steppe, Secluded Steppe, Circle of protection: Green, Mesa Pegasus
Protection :( 6-0

7. H: Swamp, Reaver Drone, Deathmark, Deathmark
Removal :( 6-0

8. alphastryk: Subterranean Hangar, Glistening Oil, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Helix Pinnacle
Poison smash! 0-6

9. Tylert: Forest, Sulfur vent, Budoka gardener, Jade mage
2/2 beats 1/1 0-6

10. GoblinSmashmaster: Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Bear Cub, Ayula, Queen Among Bears
That's me, showing the bears who's boss!

11. Serguei: Subterranean Hangar, Perish, Mental agony, Acolyte of Xathrid
Removal :( 6-0

12. maxx!: Karplusan Forest, Molten Slagheap, Elvish Archers, Dead Ringers
Grizzly smash! 0-6

Total: 34 points

Reeplcheep

01-21-2021, 02:55 PM

3. Reeplcheep: Pine Barrens, Deathmark, Deathmark, Helix Pinnacle
tl;dr - I lose to any colourless, red, blue, black a or non creature threat that wins before turn 102. I thought the specificity was worth being faster in the helix mirror (the Uber slow lands are all allied colours). I was wrong.

1. Asthereal (TO): Non creature threat. LL 6-0
2. Wrath of Pie: lose the mirror to Uber slow lands as mentioned WW 0-6
3. Reeplcheep: me
5. dte: Lose the mirror to Uber slow lands. WW 0-6
6. jhhdk: No un deathmarkable threats WW 0-6
7. H: Deathmark pays off LL 0-6
8. alphastryk: Lose the mirror to slow filter. WW 0-6
9. Tylert: no undeathmarkable threatsWW 0-6
10. GoblinSmashmaster: No un deathmarkable threats. WW 0-6
11. Serguei: Hello! Undeathmarkable threat that wins before t100. LL 6-0
12. maxx!: No un deathmarkable threat WW 0-6

Didn’t think too deeply about this one and it showed. 18 points.

maxx!

01-21-2021, 04:22 PM

maxx!: Karplusan Forest, Molten Slagheap, Elvish Archers, Dead Ringers

1. Asthereal (TO): Grove of the Burnwillows, Mountain, Punishing Fire, Volcanic Dragon
My Archers can't survive Punishing Fire, and it eventually kills me. 0-6 -> 6 points

2. Wrath of Pie: Timberline Ridge, Helix Pinnacle, Mugging, Mugging
My Archers get mugged and I lose after 200ish turns. 0-6 -> 6 points

3. Reeplcheep: Pine Barrens, Deathmark, Deathmark, Helix Pinnacle
Deathmark is live, my elves are dead, and Pinnacle gets there. 0-6 -> 6 points

4. FTW: Veldt, Helix Pinnacle, Traproot Kami, Green Scarab
I sent in my deck with a Snow-Covered Forest instead of the painland, and then while we were waiting for silk I sent in this new version. I thought people might play symmetric damage (Copper Tablet, etc.), and thought the 1 damage would help. Oops. 6-0 -> 0 points

5. dte: Wirewood Symbiote, Ketria Triome, Saprazzan Legate, Saprazzan Legate
Taiga would've been so much better than Karplusan Forest, haha. Go figure. 6-0 -> 0 points

6. jhhdk: Secluded Steppe, Secluded Steppe, Circle of protection: Green, Mesa Pegasus
CoP: Green is too strong for me. 0-6 -> 6 points

7. H: Swamp, Reaver Drone, Deathmark, Deathmark
Playing a green creature is really paying off. 0-6 -> 6 points

8. alphastryk: Subterranean Hangar, Glistening Oil, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Helix Pinnacle
Glistening Oil kills my only threat. Praise Helix. 0-6 -> 6 points

9. Tylert: Forest, Sulfur vent, Budoka gardener, Jade mage
Oh no. I win the race if you only ever play 1 creature, and if you play both then I can Dead Ringers them. You'll get a third body left behind, but it can't beat or race my Archers. 6-0 -> 0 points

10. GoblinSmashmaster: Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Bear Cub, Ayula, Queen Among Bears
Da Bears. Thankfully, first strike doesn't apply when creatures fight. One of your bears fights my Elves, and after they kill each other Dead Ringers stays dead. 0-6 -> 6 points

11. Serguei: Subterranean Hangar, Perish, Mental agony, Acolyte of Xathrid
Welcome! Really clever to use discard to prevent a bear from dodging Perish. Fortunately for me, Perish kills my only threat and then I die ever so slowly. 0-6 -> 6 points

12. maxx!: Karplusan Forest, Molten Slagheap, Elvish Archers, Dead Ringers
This is me :]

6+6+6+0+0+6+6+6+0+6+6 = 48

This round was super fun. Looks like a lot of people saw the value of green creatures (because a lot of people played green hosers). Also lots of Helix Pinnacles.

Here's what I didn't submit:
Centaur Garden, Dreadship Reef, Flooded Woodlands, Helix Pinnacle
Helix Pinnacle, but wins most Helix Pinnacle mirrors. Glad I didn't run this. Hypothetical Score: 24

Hickory Woodlot, Battlefield Forge, Roar of the Kha, An-Havva Constable
Me trying to play something that resembles a green 2/2 vs nongreen creatures. Same results as my submission, except I think I also get a draw instead of a win vs Tylert. Hypothetical Score: 50

Kazandu Refuge, Snow-Covered Forest, Grizzly Bears, Disciple of the Old Ways
My deck that came the closest to the deck to beat. I think this only beats dte as-is, and would be a clean sweep with Taiga. The Tylert match is close but I think the extra body lets him race me no matter what I do. Hypothetical Score: 60

Irrigation Ditch, Saprazzan Skerry, Intrepid Hero, Muraganda Petroglyphs
The Meekstone version is straight up better vs this field, but this version matches up better (worse?) vs Memnite. Deathmark hitting white creatures helps a lot. Hypothetical Score: 48

I overvalued life totals for racing (opting for painlands, etc.) and undervalued basic land types. Lifegain scared me off the Disciple of the Old Ways deck. Oops.

maxx!

01-21-2021, 04:27 PM

10. GoblinSmashmaster: Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Bear Cub, Ayula, Queen Among Bears

12. maxx!: Karplusan Forest, Molten Slagheap, Elvish Archers, Dead Ringers
Removal :( 6-0

I think Dead Ringers is too narrow to actually beat you. You just have to lead with Ayula, and then if I ever play my creature, you play the Bear Cub and make them fight, leaving you with only Ayula. Dead Ringers requires 2 targets to cast, and it's a sorcery, so there's no time when you'll have 2 bears in play at once. I have to play Archers or you'll just kill me with Ayula, and whenever I do then you can trade the Bear Cub for Archers.

alphastryk

01-21-2021, 04:33 PM

maxx!:
...
Kazandu Refuge, Snow-Covered Forest, Grizzly Bears, Disciple of the Old Ways
My deck that came the closest to the deck to beat. I think this only beats dte as-is, and would be a clean sweep with Taiga. The Tylert match is close but I think the extra body lets him race me no matter what I do. Hypothetical Score: 60

In retrospect, this thought process of being almost exactly the target deck is probably the best plan here because you'll almost always lose to the same things that beat that deck. So maybe its as simple as:

Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Grizzly Bears, Disciple of the Old Ways

Although can the Canadians force a draw there? They sit back, if you ever attack with the first striker then they double block and it turns fully into a staring contest. I think it has to be:

Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Disciple of the Old Ways, Disciple of the Old Ways

maxx!

01-21-2021, 04:48 PM

In retrospect, this thought process of being almost exactly the target deck is probably the best plan here because you'll almost always lose to the same things that beat that deck. So maybe its as simple as:

Snow-covered Forest, Snow-covered Mountain, Grizzly Bears, Disciple of the Old Ways

Although can the Canadians force a draw there? They sit back, if you ever attack with the first striker then they double block and it turns fully into a staring contest. I think it has to be:

Snow-covered Forest, Snow-covered Mountain, Disciple of the Old Ways, Disciple of the Old Ways

I don't think either of those decks can win OTD, because the bears get to attack you first.

OTD
T1: land, land
T2: bear, dotow
T3: bear attacks
If you block and trade, then the bears make the same attack next turn before you can untap R. You can force the draw, but if you wait to untap then you can't ever win. The bears are ahead in the race, and won't ever have to block. If you don't attack, then neither do they, and you stare. If you attack, they attack back and kill you a turn before you kill them.
If instead you don't block on turn 2, then you're still down in the life total race, and the bears can just sit back and wait for you to attack. Whenever you do attack, the bears double block a single DotOW, take 2 damage, and now it's 18 to 18 with one creature for each of you, and they can win that race too. And again, if you opt not to race, then they don't attack either.

The 1 life you can gain from a land is enough to change the math by a turn, so now the onus is on the bears to attack or lose the race, and you get favorable blocks.

alphastryk

01-21-2021, 04:54 PM

I don't think either of those decks can win OTD, because the bears get to attack you first.

OTD
T1: land, land
T2: bear, dotow
T3: bear attacks
If you block and trade, then the bears make the same attack next turn before you can untap R. You can force the draw, but if you wait to untap then you can't ever win. The bears are ahead in the race, and won't ever have to block. If you don't attack, then neither do they, and you stare. If you attack, they attack back and kill you a turn before you kill them.
If instead you don't block on turn 2, then you're still down in the life total race, and the bears can just sit back and wait for you to attack. Whenever you do attack, the bears double block a single DotOW, take 2 damage, and now it's 18 to 18 with one creature for each of you, and they can win that race too. And again, if you opt not to race, then they don't attack either.

The 1 life you can gain from a land is enough to change the math by a turn, so now the onus is on the bears to attack or lose the race, and you get favorable blocks.

Interesting, I did not realize the life gain from the land was that critical. Its hard to skate so close to the deck you have to beat and still beat it.

My final take then would be something like Taiga, Kazandu Refuge, Grizzly Bears, Disciple of the Old Ways

or maybe Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Highland Game, Disciple of the Old Ways

That way you have both a Forest and a Mountain while still gaining the life to win the race.

dte

01-21-2021, 05:36 PM

12. maxx!: Karplusan Forest, Molten Slagheap, Elvish Archers, Dead Ringers
My defence holds up against your onslaught and your removal is too narrow to be effective (amazingly Narrow! I should have gone with green
forestwalk creature instead and I could've had draws here).

Dead Ringers is indeed an incredible removal in this format!

better than forestwalk, you have snow-covered forestwalk with Rime Dryad. It was in my first submission before realizing that a vanilla green 1/1 was enough.

Wrath of Pie

01-21-2021, 07:22 PM

AyulaBearmaster Results for Round "UnBearable"

2. Wrath of Pie: Timberline Ridge, Helix Pinnacle, Mugging, Mugging
Removal :( 6-0

I don't think it's possible for me to beat you, Timberline Ridge is really bad at untapping so you just wait for me to cast Pinnacle/add a tower counter to cast your Bears and get one out of Mugging range, which leads to you winning, thus we stare.

FTW

01-21-2021, 08:30 PM

I don't think it's possible for me to beat you, Timberline Ridge is really bad at untapping so you just wait for me to cast Pinnacle/add a tower counter to cast your Bears and get one out of Mugging range, which leads to you winning, thus we stare.

I think he's right. You can add Pinnacle counters at EOT, so you should be able to both tick up and always intervene before there are two bears.

Example
You - Pass with land untapped
Gobbo - Do nothing. EOT you add a counter to Helix

You - Land is tapped
Gobbo - play a bear

You - Mugging kills bear before the 2nd one lands

OR

You - Pass with land untapped
Gobbo - Plays a bear. You don't tick up.

You - Mugging the bear

There's never a safe window to play out both bears before you can remove one.

maxx!

01-21-2021, 09:08 PM

I think he's right. You can add Pinnacle counters at EOT, so you should be able to both tick up and always intervene before there are two bears.

Example
You - Pass with land untapped
Gobbo - Do nothing. EOT you add a counter to Helix

You - Land is tapped
Gobbo - play a bear

You - Mugging kills bear before the 2nd one lands

OR

You - Pass with land untapped
Gobbo - Plays a bear. You don't tick up.

You - Mugging the bear

There's never a safe window to play out both bears before you can remove one.

I think it depends on who goes first. When GS goes first, WoP never has a safe window to play Helix. GS plays a land, then if WoP plays Helix, GS can play a bear on his next turn. WoP’s garbage land stays tapped, then GS can play his second bear. So WoP never plays Helix on the draw. 4-1?

Serguei

01-22-2021, 05:04 AM

Hello all thanks for the fun
Perish was definitively a too strong removal
My deck Subterranean Hangar, Perish, Mental agony, Acolyte of Xathrid

1. Asthereal (TO): Grove of the Burnwillows, Mountain, Punishing Fire, Volcanic Dragon
Punishing fire is definitively too strong LL 6pts

2. Wrath of Pie: Timberline Ridge, Helix Pinnacle, Mugging, Mugging

2. Wrath of Pie: Timberline Ridge, Helix Pinnacle, Mugging, Mugging

11. Serguei: Subterranean Hangar, Perish, Mental agony, Acolyte of Xathrid LL

You can hold a mugging to kill the acolyte and force the draw DD
2 points

3. Reeplcheep: Pine Barrens, Deathmark, Deathmark, Helix Pinnacle
Acolyte is faster than helix WW 0 points

4. FTW: Veldt, Helix Pinnacle, Traproot Kami, Green Scarab
Acolyte is faster than helix WW 0 points

5. dte: Wirewood Symbiote, Ketria Triome, Saprazzan Legate, Saprazzan Legate
I kill your symbiote then you cannot cast anything anymore WW 0 points

6. jhhdk: Secluded Steppe, Secluded Steppe, Circle of protection: Green, Mesa Pegasus
Your Pegasus is definitively faster than acolyte and I cannot kill it LL 6points

7. H: Swamp, Reaver Drone, Deathmark, Deathmark
It is just a race here because we cannot deal with the threat of the other and reaver is way faster than acolyte LL 6points

8. alphastryk: Subterranean Hangar, Glistening Oil, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Helix Pinnacle

I see I failed to produce the slowest deck :laugh:. Who knew golfishing on turn 109 was too fast! Also, My removal was not narrow enough clearly.
11. Serguei: Subterranean Hangar, Perish, Mental agony, Acolyte of Xathrid
I don't think I can beat a discard spell, so Mental Agony takes away my ability to win. EDIT: However, I can hold onto my Oil and kill your Acolyte with it to force draws. DD

2 points

DD 2 points

9. Tylert: Forest, Sulfur vent, Budoka gardener, Jade mage

11. Serguei: I Can win OTP barely by playing jade mage first. You have to Mental agony before using perish. Once you have used mental agony, I can make a 3/3 EOT and as you are at 12, I have 4 turns to kill you that is just enough. OTD, You win just before dying. 3/3 --> 41

WL 3points

10. GoblinSmashmaster: Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Bear Cub, Ayula, Queen Among Bears
WW 0 points

12. maxx!: Karplusan Forest, Molten Slagheap, Elvish Archers, Dead Ringers
WW 0 points

Total 25 points Not too good for a first
I will do better on the next rounds ;)

Wrath of Pie

01-22-2021, 07:07 AM

Fixed my incorrect results, apparently my brain is slower than my land.

Just remembered that Loxodon Peacekeeper is a thing, issue is finding a compatible win condition/card that makes the Peacekeeper actually win against the Canadians.

FTW

01-22-2021, 05:14 PM

Man you wanted to play a 2/3??? that is way too strong.

And here I thought even a 0/3 Wall of Hope was too strong.

better than forestwalk, you have snow-covered forestwalk with Rime Dryad. It was in my first submission before realizing that a vanilla green 1/1 was enough.

Rime Dryad is a card I was worried about. It wrecks my Kami strategy.

One of my alternates was designed around it: Sacred Foundry, Snow-Covered Forest, Arctic Foxes, Wall of Hope.
Both land types and Snow Forests specifically for Rime Dryad. But I thought Wall of Hope might be too OP. The 1/1 Foxes would have gotten 52 points here, only beating the clever Acolyte of Xathrid and drawing vs Mesa Pegasus and Tylert.

I just realized replacing Foxes with Rime Dryad would have scored 62, drawing vs Tylert and losing to everything else, but I never considered it.

Irrigation Ditch, Saprazzan Skerry, Intrepid Hero, Muraganda Petroglyphs
The Meekstone version is straight up better vs this field, but this version matches up better (worse?) vs Memnite. Deathmark hitting white creatures helps a lot. Hypothetical Score: 48

Hero's good tech I never thought of. Losing to basically any removal at all means it's easier for opponents to break the lock and also easier to lose vs Helix Pinnacle. I guess the version with Meekstone and Helix Pinnacle would have scored 54 here, only beating the slowest Helix Pinnacle mirrors and losing to everything else.

Just remembered that Loxodon Peacekeeper is a thing, issue is finding a compatible win condition/card that makes the Peacekeeper actually win against the Canadians.

Would it not work with Helix Pinnacle? Peacekeeper stops them from attacking you. Maybe it works too well though.

alphastryk

01-22-2021, 06:37 PM

Best peacekeeper deck is probably with Helix Pinnacle:

Veldt, Ancient Ziggurat, Loxodon Peacekeeper, Helix Pinnacle

Its still worse than the narrower walls but not a bad plan

silkster

01-22-2021, 08:53 PM

Sorry I missed this. I had been checking each week, and then I bought on house last Wednesday (the 13th) and with moving stuff and setting up internet I completely forgot about this. I really couldn't think of much. All I had had in mind was the 200+ turn clock with a depletion land and Helix Pinnacle, then maybe a wall to survive. So at least I (from my perspective) I wasn't sitting on something I was really excited about and missed the chance. Though I was quite excited about this round (it's name even calls out to me), but I didn't have time to do a proper search into it.

Looking at the decks, I'm most impressed by GoblinSmashmaster's bear deck. But I have a few questions.

2. Wrath of Pie: Timberline Ridge, Helix Pinnacle, Mugging, Mugging
Removal :( 6-0

10. GoblinSmashmaster: Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Bear Cub, Ayula, Queen Among Bears
That's me, showing the bears who's boss!

If Smashmaster goes first, I think this is a draw. If Wrath casts Helix Pinnacle, then Smashmaster will have time to make an unkillable 4/4. So Wrath can't make the Pinnacle, and Smashmaster can't make any bears or they die.

12. maxx!: Karplusan Forest, Molten Slagheap, Elvish Archers, Dead Ringers
Removal :( 6-0

For this one Smashmaster makes Ayula and tries to win. If maxx! makes Archers, then fight mode will trade off a bear for a 2/1 and the Dead Ringers is never able to catch anything.

Wrath of Pie

01-22-2021, 10:24 PM

Best peacekeeper deck is probably with Helix Pinnacle:

Veldt, Ancient Ziggurat, Loxodon Peacekeeper, Helix Pinnacle

Its still worse than the narrower walls but not a bad plan

Helix Pinnacle is the obvious solution, but I was hoping for something with life total manipulation, ideally being really slow but winning at just enough life against the Bears. Probably doesn't exist though.

dte

01-23-2021, 10:49 AM

Sorry I missed this. I had been checking each week, and then I bought on house last Wednesday (the 13th) and with moving stuff and setting up internet I completely forgot about this. I really couldn't think of much. All I had had in mind was the 200+ turn clock with a depletion land and Helix Pinnacle, then maybe a wall to survive. So at least I (from my perspective) I wasn't sitting on something I was really excited about and missed the chance.

Congrats on the house!
That's quite the reason :)

Otherwise, I think that's weird everyone seem to be so keen on Helix Pinnacle, an undisruptable wincon, albeit slow, does not sound that great in this format compared to a very fragile one. Any of the deck featuring it would have done strictly better by running the exact same deck except for a dryad (or similar, any green 1/1 that cannot be blocked by bears) instead of helix:

FTW, 51 to 56, +5
alphastryk, 20 to 28, +8
WoP, 30 to 34, +4
Reeplcheep: 18 to 32, +14

And then I am sure the rest could have been adapted to do better if the goal is not to go so slow with helix.
That being said I am glad there was so many helixes, they made mountain unplayable by being too fast :)

FTW

01-23-2021, 01:15 PM

Congrats on the house! No wonder you haven't been online a while.

Otherwise, I think that's weird everyone seem to be so keen on Helix Pinnacle, an undisruptable wincon, albeit slow, does not sound that great in this format compared to a very fragile one. Any of the deck featuring it would have done strictly better by running the exact same deck except for a dryad (or similar, any green 1/1 that cannot be blocked by bears) instead of helix:

FTW, 51 to 56, +5
alphastryk, 20 to 28, +8
WoP, 30 to 34, +4
Reeplcheep: 18 to 32, +14

And then I am sure the rest could have been adapted to do better if the goal is not to go so slow with helix.
That being said I am glad there was so many helixes, they made mountain unplayable by being too fast :)

Do I still get 5 more points if you put Scarab on the Dryad and beat with a 3/4? (optimal play is forced)
The only thing my wall stops is Forest + green creature. A 3/x Forestwalk that can't be blocked by green creatures doesn't seem to improve that matchup.

The nonbasic + Kami + buff plan doesn't really work with a creature. The noncreature wincons are all undisruptable, so at that point slowest seemed best to lose races. It's "undisruptable" but irrelevant if they can win before turn 200 vs a 0/0 wall. The only risk is facing threats Kami can stop, but then my buffed Dryad could probably race those.

Otherwise, good observation. The others would have done better without Helix Pinnacle. If I wasn't on the Kami plan, my Arctic Foxes deck had a similar idea with a vulnerable 1/1 wincon.

I had Mountain + Forest + Foxes as tech to beat decks like Rime Dryad, Shanodin Dryads and Goblins of the Flarg. Triome + Symbiote + Legate was I guess how you achieved the same thing. The problem is finding a bad defense card that works with Foxes. Kami doesn't work. I missed CoP: Green. Wall of Hope was my front runner, but I thought it'd be too strong against random non-evasive threats and went with the Kami plan instead.

It turns out no one ran Dryad and very few ran basics, and that both Dryad and Wall of Hope would have been great. Backbuild is a really interesting metagaming challenge, trying to play around how everyone else will try to beat the deck.

Edit: I guess there are two ways to look at it. You could go for a vulnerable threat that only beats the bears, or you could go for a vulnerable defense that stops almost nothing but the bears. With the vulnerable defense, the slowest wincon seems fine, as long as they win first.

dte

01-23-2021, 03:42 PM

Do I still get 5 more points if you put Scarab on the Dryad and beat with a 3/4? (optimal play is forced)
The only thing my wall stops is Forest + green creature. A 3/x Forestwalk that can't be blocked by green creatures doesn't seem to improve that matchup.

You're right, I didn't consider enchanting the dryad.
Your defense working only if the opponent has both a forest and a green creature that is no bigger than 2/2, and no removal VS a green 0/1, was indeed great and worked well with helix.

Tylert

01-24-2021, 01:39 PM

Do we miss a lot of results to start the next round?

Asthereal

01-24-2021, 01:40 PM

Sooo... That's a weird time. The Dutch govenment just imposed an evening curfew, and there's tons of protest and rioting.
Today, idiots decided to destroy the train station I needed to travel through, stranding me in the middle of the country.
I am now a guest at a friend's place and posting from there.

Anyway, let's have a look how well my own deck did. Too well, I'm guessing.

1. Asthereal (TO): Grove of the Burnwillows, Mountain, Punishing Fire, Volcanic Dragon
That's me. I had no inspiration whatsoever, so I just made this 3CB deck that should be good against X/3 guys.
2. Wrath of Pie: Timberline Ridge, Helix Pinnacle, Mugging, Mugging
I'm too good and win this easily. 0-6
3. Reeplcheep: Pine Barrens, Deathmark, Deathmark, Helix Pinnacle
Still I'm too good and win this easily. 0-6
4. FTW: Veldt, Helix Pinnacle, Traproot Kami, Green Scarab
More terribleness for me to destroy. 0-6
5. dte: Wirewood Symbiote, Ketria Triome, Saprazzan Legate, Saprazzan Legate
Oh no! I have a mountain. Now you can cast 1/3 flyers and murder me! 6-0
6. jhhdk: Secluded Steppe, Secluded Steppe, Circle of protection: Green, Mesa Pegasus
CoP: Green, nice tech! Pegasus dies and Fire burns you. 0-6
7. H: Swamp, Reaver Drone, Deathmark, Deathmark
That creature is actually quite good. Still my deck is much better. 0-6
8. alphastryk: Subterranean Hangar, Glistening Oil, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Helix Pinnacle
Bad rares are bad and die to my Fire! 0-6
9. Tylert: Forest, Sulfur vent, Budoka gardener, Jade mage
Fire eats your guys and then you. 0-6
10. GoblinSmashmaster: Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Bear Cub, Ayula, Queen Among Bears
Edit: luckily, your bear never lives long enough to get the trigger and make the 4/4 bear, so phew, Fire still burns your team and then you. 0-6
11. Serguei: Subterranean Hangar, Perish, Mental agony, Acolyte of Xathrid
Fire eats your wincon, discard makes me lose the Dragon but I couldn't cast that anyway. Fire burns you. 0-6
12. maxx!: Karplusan Forest, Molten Slagheap, Elvish Archers, Dead Ringers
Fire eats your guy and then you. 0-6

Total: 6 points. That's crap. Oh well.

Asthereal

01-24-2021, 01:53 PM

Do we miss a lot of results to start the next round?
Nope. It's been a bit of a mess on my end. Build your deck, and I'll open the round soon enough.
All I need to do is build my own deck in order to open the round. I hope to do that tonight.

Thankfully, we don't need to finish this round in order to start the next one.
There are no bannings from last round to influence the next, and the plan for next round is public already.

I haven't had time to build the new spreadsheet and collect results for round 1 yet, but I'll do that before the deadline for round 2.

EDIT: Except for the fact that we need to do an emergency banning.
I completely overlooked the card Approach of the Second Sun, which is of course stupid.
Apologies for the oversight. I'll add it to the bannings for next round, because that card is obviously not fun.
We can beat it many ways, but it's just not a fun things to have in the meta. I'm sure you guys can live with this.

EDIT2: I would like to suggest we also ban Barren Glory, which I thought we had already banned, but apparently not. :wink:
I'll give you guys a bit of time to protest against these bannings. Let me know if you can't live with them, and why.

dte

01-24-2021, 03:43 PM

Sooo... That's a weird time. The Dutch govenment just imposed an evening curfew, and there's tons of protest and rioting.

The weirdest to me is that Danes and Dutch are rioting, and French or Spanish are not.

5. dte: Wirewood Symbiote, Ketria Triome, Saprazzan Legate, Saprazzan Legate
Oh no! I have a mountain. Now you can cast 1/3 flyers and murder me! 6-0
[...]
Total: 6 points. That's crap. Oh well.

You've beaten everyone but me, and I've been beaten by everyone but you.
Funny result, I was on the lucky end of this paper/scissors/rocks.

Otherwise, perfectly fine with the bannings.

Asthereal

01-24-2021, 04:44 PM

The weirdest to me is that Danes and Dutch are rioting, and French or Spanish are not.

You've beaten everyone but me, and I've been beaten by everyone but you.
Funny result, I was on the lucky end of this paper/scissors/rocks.

Otherwise, perfectly fine with the bannings.
1) Indeed. The Danes! They never ever riot!

2) Indeed. I failed to post a deck with a worse land than Mountain, which actually saved me against you. Sooo weird. :tongue:

3) Cool, thanks. I was looking at possible cards to play for my deck for next round and found Barren Glory and that weird 7 mana thing and thougfht: OH CRAP, I did not prepare this well at all. :eyebrow:

Wrath of Pie

01-24-2021, 07:09 PM

I'm not convinced Approach of the Second Sun is actually even good, because of how I expect the format to end up. Not really a big loss though.

FTW

01-24-2021, 07:36 PM

We may not want to allow
Chancellor of the Annex, Chancellor of the Annex, Approach of the Second Sun, Approach of the Second Sun

But that is already banned for other reasons.

Either way, I have no opposition to its banning.

jhhdk

01-25-2021, 04:16 AM

1) Indeed. The Danes! They never ever riot!
Ahem!? As the supreme leader of Antifa in Denmark. I am offended by this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv1kd1u3gsI (http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv1kd1u3gsI)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzCQtrNWucI

dte

01-25-2021, 06:30 AM

Ahem!? As the supreme leader of Antifa in Denmark. I am offended by this.

Jeg har undskyld, I didn't mean to offend anyone, and particularly not a supreme leader.
For the sake of accuracy, let's say "extremely rarely compared to the inhabitants of more meridional countries" instead of "never ever"?

Asthereal

01-25-2021, 07:26 AM

Okay, no arguments agaionst my bannings, so I'll keep them. Wrath suggested the cards might not even be that dangerous, but I feel like having them in the meta invalidates certain archetypes. So both Approach and Barren Glory are out for this round. And I have my deck, so let's open round 2 up.

ROUND 2 OF SEASON 9: DEVIANT LEGACY - PART 2 has started.

This round we play Dream Halls: Rather than pay the mana cost for a spell, its controller may discard a card that shares a color with that spell.
Additional bannings: Progenitus, Approach of the Second Sun, Barren Glory

I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 2, so you can start sending me your decks.

DEADLINE: Wednesday the 27th of January at 11:00AM Central European Time.
(That's my time zone. Pacific Time it'll probably be something like Tuesday night a bit past midnight, so keep that in mind.)

PLEASE NOTE:
The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
Please send your deck as follows: Swamp, Swamp, Terror, Black Knight.
So with card tags around each card, and not above eachother, and with your Username and 4CB S09R02 in the topic.
Don't forget to keep an eye on the banned list. You'll find it in the second post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1064264&viewfull=1#post1064264) of the thread, on in our Google Spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YwJGkRwet2eSSm2aVe8eq1OcIW1MFzrgrpcBk71woXA/edit?usp=sharing).

After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

Also, if you've been lurking on this thread and looking to join, you can step in anytime, any round. That's no problem at all. Just send me your deck before the deadline, and I'll add you to the competition. :smile:

Happy deck designing everybody! :cool:

Asthereal

01-25-2021, 08:25 AM

Also, here's the standings for round 1:

1. dte: 60 - 5,5
2. FTW: 51 - 4,6
3. maxx!: 48 - 4,4
4. Tylert: 41 - 3,7
5. GoblinSmashmaster: 34 - 3,1
6. jhhdk: 32 - 2,9
7. Wrath of Pie: 30 - 2,7
8. Serguei: 25 - 2,3
9. H: 24 - 2,2
10. alphastryk: 20 - 1,8
11. Reeplcheep: 12 - 1,1
12. Asthereal (TO): 6 - 0,5

EDIT: And I've created the spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YwJGkRwet2eSSm2aVe8eq1OcIW1MFzrgrpcBk71woXA/edit?usp=sharing
EDIT2: And now you can also edit the spreadsheet just from the link. Hopefully.
EDIT3: Adjusted scores as FTW loses twice and so gains 6 points against H.

alphastryk

01-25-2021, 08:42 AM

Asthereal

01-25-2021, 08:53 AM

I've got no issues with those bannings, although I'm not sure how good they were. Progenitus would definitely be annoying though, as almost every deck would contain it.

The linked google sheet might be private? Its giving me an access denied message
Updated the settings again. Google really doesn't want me to make the spreadsheet as openly available as I need it to be...

About the bannings: maybe they aren't as important, but I feel like it's kind of silly to force everybody to play all counterspells in order to not just lose.

alphastryk

01-25-2021, 08:56 AM

That worked, I'm in the google sheet now.

And maybe having to play defense too hard is a problem in this round, a little hard to predict the meta game here.

FTW

01-25-2021, 01:25 PM

Also, here's the standings for round 1:

1. dte: 60 - 5,5
2. maxx!: 48 - 4,4
3. FTW: 45 - 4,1
4. Tylert: 41 - 3,7
5. GoblinSmashmaster: 34 - 3,1
6. jhhdk: 32 - 2,9
7. Wrath of Pie: 30 - 2,7
8. H: 30 - 2,7
9. Serguei: 25 - 2,3
10. alphastryk: 20 - 1,8
11. Reeplcheep: 12 - 1,1
12. Asthereal (TO): 6 - 0,5

I thought I had 51 points. Which of my results was wrong?

I 3-3 Wrath (mirror) and should automatically 6-0 anyone without Forest + green creature smaller than 3/3

It may effect top 3 standings, though I guess not bannings since we stopped doing a bannathon.

Edit: This is my fault. I wrote LL 0-6 out of habit instead of LL 6-0.
I counted it correctly in my total, but it was transcribed as 0 (the way I wrote it) into the spreadsheet. Fixed now.

dte

01-25-2021, 01:37 PM

I thought I had 51 points. Which of my results was wrong?

I 3-3 Wrath (mirror) and should automatically 6-0 anyone without basic Forest + green creature smaller than 3/3

It may effect top 3 standings, though I guess not bannings since we stopped doing a bannathon.

Your results against H are wrong, you should lose it 6-0.
But yourself wrote a confusing"LL 0-6" for it ;)

Asthereal

01-26-2021, 05:04 AM

Your results against H are wrong, you should lose it 6-0.
But yourself wrote a confusing"LL 0-6" for it ;)
Fixed this in the results. This takes FTW to second place in round 1.

Asthereal

01-27-2021, 05:55 AM

EDIT: And the second I post my question whether silk has time to send a deck, he sends it. :smile:
I'll post decks soon.

Asthereal

01-27-2021, 06:55 AM

DECKS FOR ROUND 2 OF SEASON 9: Deviant Legacy - Part 2
This round we play Dream Halls: Rather than pay the mana cost for a spell, its controller may discard a card that shares a color with that spell. Additional bannings: Progenitus, Approach of the Second Sun, Barren Glory.

The entries:
1. Asthereal (TO): Guile, Spelljack, Draining Whelk, Chromium, the Mutable
2. dte: Chancellor of the forge, Counterflux, Torrential gearhulk, Aethersnatch
3. jhhdk: Aluren, Casualties of War, Cavern Harpy, Parasitic Strix
4. Wrath of Pie: Time Stop, Spelljack, Guile, Guile
5. alphastryk: Mindbreak Trap, Commandeer, Guile, Guile
6. Tylert: Aethersnatch, Aethersnatch, Counterflux, The Ur-Dragon
7. Serguei: Guile, Guile, Wheel and Deal, Mindbreak Trap
8. Reeplcheep: Savage Summoning, Dragonlord Dromoka, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV , Mindbreak Trap
9. GoblinSmashmaster: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Miraculous Recovery, Spelljack, Mindbreak Trap
10. FTW: Chancellor of the Forge, Dualcaster Mage, Discontinuity, Spelljack
11. H: Guile, Guile, Nexus of Fate, Last Word
12. maxx!: Slaughter Games, Counterflux, Surrak Dragonclaw, Sandstorm Eidolon
13. silkster: Counterflux, Aethersnatch, Take Possession, Chancellor of the Forge

Please post your scores and cross-check with the opponents.
You can also enter your scores in the Google Spreadsheet for the seasonwhich you can find here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YwJGkRwet2eSSm2aVe8eq1OcIW1MFzrgrpcBk71woXA/edit?usp=sharing

PS. This round is a lot less diverse than I had hoped...

Reeplcheep

01-27-2021, 07:57 AM

In this crazy overpowered round the best thing to be doing was chancellor of the annex imo. Since that is banned, I built my own uncounterable t0 chancellor. If that isn’t good enough I can just play a dragon lord dromaka plus arbiter or exile your spell. Guile redrawing is too slow in most cases to race my 4 turn lifelinking clock I believe.

8. Reeplcheep: Savage Summoning, Dragonlord Dromoka, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV , Mindbreak Trap

1. Asthereal (TO): Guile, Spelljack, Draining Whelk, Chromium, the Mutable
Judge! What happens to whelks etb if it targets an uncounterable spell?

2. dte: Chancellor of the forge, Counterflux, Torrential gearhulk, Aethersnatch
Lose to the goblin LL 0/6

3. jhhdk: Aluren, Casualties of War, Cavern Harpy, Parasitic Strix
You can’t beat t0 arbiter. WW 6-0

4. Wrath of Pie: Time Stop, Spelljack, Guile, Guile
Easy draw DD 2-2
5. alphastryk: Mindbreak Trap, Commandeer, Guile, Guile
If you ever commit guile to the board you lose to dramoka plus backup. On my turn I cast a normal arbiter which you have to exile not steal, then I cast dramoka for the win. WW 6-0.

6. Tylert: Aethersnatch, Aethersnatch, Counterflux, The Ur-Dragon
Ur dragon beats dramoka in the head to head. LL 0-6.

7. Serguei: Guile, Guile, Wheel and Deal, Mindbreak Trap
OTP you can’t beat arbiter into dramoka. OTD I can only cast 1 spell on your turn, so no matter what you wheel, MBT my first spell, then win with guile beats.WL 3-3

9. GoblinSmashmaster: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Miraculous Recovery, Spelljack, Mindbreak Trap
OTP Dramoka with MBT backup forces you to spend everything. OTD arbiter plus MBT for my uncounterable arbiter in response wins. DL 1-4.

10. FTW: Chancellor of the Forge, Dualcaster Mage, Discontinuity, Spelljack
Lose to the goblin LL 0-6
11. H: Guile, Guile, Nexus of Fate, Last Word
You can’t beat t0 uncounterable arbiter. WW 6-0
12. maxx!: Slaughter Games, Counterflux, Surrak Dragonclaw, Sandstorm Eidolon
You can beat t0 uncounterable arbiter. OTP dramoka wins, OTD you can slaughter games. I let it happen and then MBT surrak in repose to the eidolon trigger for the draw. WD 4-1
13. silkster: Counterflux, Aethersnatch, Take Possession, Chancellor of the Forge
Lose to the goblin LL 0-6

Uberflash not good enough to beat super delver.

FTW

01-27-2021, 08:01 AM

LOL dte, silkster and I all played the Chancellor+2 counter deck to beat the 2 counter decks.

Now to see if my "End the Turn" tech is good enough to beat the uncounterable stuff and recursion triggers.

10. FTW: Chancellor of the Forge, Dualcaster Mage, Discontinuity, Spelljack

Against non-Chancellor decks, my 1/1 forces you to cast the first spell, otherwise it just wins.

1. Asthereal (TO): If you try to cast Chromium pitching Guile, I End the Turn (exiling all uncounterable spells and abilities from the stack), which also stops the Guile reshuffle. If you try to counter Discontinuity, I cast Dualcaster Mage copying it and End the Turn again with a bonus 2/2. You're better off discarding Whelk to cast Chromium, letting it get countered, then casting Guile as a 2nd threat. Dualcaster can't stop that, so I just cast Chancellor to get 7 power in bodies. I would race you so we stare. DD 2-2

2. dte: I think our 1/1s just run into each other and draw. Whoever tries to resolve a spell first loses the counter war. If you just play 2 creatures I can't counter both, but I can counter the blue one and cast my own Chancellor to stare. DD 2-2

3. jhhdk: Very cool idea, but combo is just obliterated by counters and my 5/5 is big. WW 6-0

4. Wrath of Pie: I think you can't make any progress casting spells. If you cast Guile pitching Guile, I End the Turn (and if you try to counter I Dualcast and End the Turn again), then you'd have no threats. If you cast Guile pitching a counter, I Spelljack it. If you counter, I Dualcast your counter and win. If you let me Spelljack and cast a 2nd Guile, I play Chancellor+the stolen Guile and race you. WW 6-0

5. alphastryk: This should work out the same as Wrath. If you play Guile pitching Guile, I End the Turn and can Dualcast your counter back at you. If you play Guile pitching something else, I Spelljack it. If you try to counter, I Dualcast your counter back at you and win. If you let me Spelljack and cast a 2nd Guile, I play Chancellor + stolen Guile and race. WW 6-0

6. Tylert: If you ever try to play your 1 threat, I can End the Turn, and if you try to counter, I Dualcast and really End the Turn. WW 6-0

7. Serguei: If you try to Wheel and Deal me, I Dualcast it back at you with the Guile trigger on the stack. If you either counter my Wheel or let it resolve, I End the Turn countering yours and your Guile triggers.
Otherwise this is like Wrath and alphastryk. If you play Guile discarding Guile, I End the Turn and if you counter I Dualcast and End the Turn again. If you play Guile discarding Wheel, I Spelljack it. If you try to counter, I Dualcast your counter back. If you let me Spelljack and cast your 2nd Guile, then I cast your Guile + my Chancellor and race you. WW 6-0

8. Reeplcheep: If you try to flash in Arbiter, I End the Turn and win, so that's a bad line for you. Your best line is to go for 2 threats. If you lead with Dragonlord, I have to End the Turn. Then if you play Arbiter, it would stop me from playing Chancellor, so I have to Dualcast in response. My 1/1 and 2/2 stare at your 2/3. DD 2-2

9. GoblinSmashmaster: If you try to resolve Arbiter/Recovery, I Spelljack it, and if you try to counter I just Dualcast your counter to counter it. WW 6-0

11. H: Similar to the other 2x Guile matches. I Spelljack your first Guile. If you counter, I can't counter back but I can just Dualcast a 2nd Spelljack copy. If you cast a 2nd Guile, I play your Guile + Chancellor and race. WW 6-0

12. maxx!: This is really interesting tech. If you Slaughter Games first, I Dualcast it targeting you in response to the Eidolon trigger so you can only do 1 thing in response. If you counter or cast Surrak in response, I End the Turn exiling everything and stopping the Eidolon trigger, winning with my 1/1. If you let my Dualcast Slaughter Games resolve, I exile Surrak from your hand and then End the Turn anyway, countering yours and stopping the Eidolon trigger, even worse for you. So you do not try to cast Slaughter Games. If you cast Surrak first, I End the Turn exiling it in response to the Eidolon trigger and then you have no threat, then I cast my Chancellor. If you cast Surrak pitching another card, I End the Turn, then you can cast your 2/2 but I make a Dualcaster to trade and my 1/1 still wins. WW 6-0

13. silkster: Same as dte match. Our 1/1s stare. Whoever plays a spell first loses the counter war. If you Take Possession my 1/1, split second stops me. But then I cast my Chancellor. If you Counterflux it, I Spelljack my own Chancellor and recast it to win. If you play Chancellor instead I Spelljack it and get 2 Chancellors. So you do not want to cast Take Possession first and we stare. DD 2-2

56 points (16 wins, 8 draws, 0 loss)

Edit2: Dualcaster Mage over a counter helped me out vs H and maxx!'s uncounterable spells, Spelljack was sufficient vs the 2x Guile decks, while Counterflux only would have helped vs Asthereal I think.

Edit3: Spelljacking my own spell is tech that can win counter wars vs uncounterable counters.

FTW

01-27-2021, 08:05 AM

In this crazy overpowered round this to be doing is chancellor of the annex imo. Since that is banned, I built my own uncounterable t0 chancellor. If that isn’t good enough I can just play a dragon lord dromaka plus arbiter or exile your spell.

8. Reeplcheep: Savage Summoning, Dragonlord Dromoka, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV , Mindbreak Trap

1. Asthereal (TO): Guile, Spelljack, Draining Whelk, Chromium, the Mutable
Judge! What happens to whelks etb if it targets an uncounterable spell?

The card says "target spell" and then "that spell's mana cost", with no "if it was countered" clause. It should get the counters either way.

dte

01-27-2021, 08:54 AM

PS. This round is a lot less diverse than I had hoped...

Indeed. First thing I can see is that at least FTW and Silkster have registered basically the same deck as me, I guess it cannot be too wrong. Second is that a lot of MU will not be that easy to solve, even if there shouldn't be too much combat math.

2. dte: Chancellor of the forge, Counterflux, Torrential gearhulk, Aethersnatch

Chancellor forces my opponent to do the first move if they do not play chancellor as well.

1. Asthereal (TO): Guile, Spelljack, Draining Whelk, Chromium, the Mutable
2-2. Dream halls war resulting in 2 1/1 trading?
2

3. jhhdk: Aluren, Casualties of War, Cavern Harpy, Parasitic Strix
6-0. If you play something, I counter the green spell and snatch the blue one.
8

4. Wrath of Pie: Time Stop, Spelljack, Guile, Guile
6-0. I think your best hope is to cast guile over and over, starting T1. guile, discard guile. Snatch guile with gearhulk. attack for 12. guile, discarding any of the other, counterflux. win.
14

5. alphastryk: Mindbreak Trap, Commandeer, Guile, Guile
6-0. Snatch guile.
20

6. Tylert: Aethersnatch, Aethersnatch, Counterflux, The Ur-Dragon
6-0. Again, you having to make the first move make you lose the counter war.
26

7. Serguei: Guile, Guile, Wheel and Deal, Mindbreak Trap
6-0, see WoP.
32

8. Reeplcheep: Savage Summoning, Dragonlord Dromoka, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV , Mindbreak Trap
6-0. Trap does not really work as a free card, as you cannot cast GAA if you use the trap, so you still have only 2 spells. if you use summoning to cast GAA, I steal it.
38

9. GoblinSmashmaster: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Miraculous Recovery, Spelljack, Mindbreak Trap
6-0 in 20 turns.
44

10. FTW: Chancellor of the Forge, Dualcaster Mage, Discontinuity, Spelljack
2/2. Gobs trade and we don't see more action.
46

11. H: Guile, Guile, Nexus of Fate, Last Word
0-6. That one is pretty strong against my approach.
46

12. maxx!: Slaughter Games, Counterflux, Surrak Dragonclaw, Sandstorm Eidolon
1-4. Eidolon is a great idea! OTP I can steal a draw by plying chancellor, discarding counterflux. You cannot counter it, or I gearhulk-snatch your counterflux and draw (4 gobs, chancellor and hulk on the battlefield), and I then have 8 power, so a 3 turns clock, and you can only have a 6/6. When you are OTP, you can start by slaughter game, discarding eidolon, and take out snatch. Then you can play Surrak safely.
47

13. silkster: Counterflux, Aethersnatch, Take Possession, Chancellor of the Forge
2-2. The mighty 1/1 gobs battle...
49

My other deck would have done slightly better, losing only to jhhdk and Serguei and drawing vs Silkster.

Otherwise, quite complicated all these guile MUs. I might easily be wrong for many MUs.
I also think there will be an insane amounts of draws.

jhhdk

01-27-2021, 09:06 AM

Indeed. First thing I can see is that at least FTW and Silkster have registered basically the same deck as me, I guess it cannot be too wrong. Second is that a lot of MU will not be that easy to solve, even if there shouldn't be too much combat math.
My other deck would have done slightly better, losing only to jhhdk and Serguei and drawing vs Silkster.

You should have played that. Then I would've won at last a single match. :-)

Tylert

01-27-2021, 09:09 AM

1. Asthereal (TO): Guile, Spelljack, Draining Whelk, Chromium, the Mutable
2. dte: Chancellor of the forge, Counterflux, Torrential gearhulk, Aethersnatch
3. jhhdk: Aluren, Casualties of War, Cavern Harpy, Parasitic Strix
4. Wrath of Pie: Time Stop, Spelljack, Guile, Guile
5. alphastryk: Mindbreak Trap, Commandeer, Guile, Guile
6. Tylert: Aethersnatch, Aethersnatch, Counterflux, The Ur-Dragon
7. Serguei: Guile, Guile, Wheel and Deal, Mindbreak Trap
8. Reeplcheep: Savage Summoning, Dragonlord Dromoka, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV , Mindbreak Trap
9. GoblinSmashmaster: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Miraculous Recovery, Spelljack, Mindbreak Trap
10. FTW: Chancellor of the Forge, Dualcaster Mage, Discontinuity, Spelljack
11. H: Guile, Guile, Nexus of Fate, Last Word
12. maxx!: Slaughter Games, Counterflux, Surrak Dragonclaw, Sandstorm Eidolon
13. silkster: Counterflux, Aethersnatch, Take Possession, Chancellor of the Forge

1. Asthereal: I guess that whoever plays a spell first looses. Whatever you do I can Aethersnatch it, whatever I do you can spelljack it or Draining whelk it. so nobody does anything 2-2 --> 2
2. dte: Having a free 1/1 is good. You don't do anything. If I try to play my blocker you try for example to couinterflux it, I'll aethersnatch that but you will aethersnatch my aethersnatch and win. 0-6 --> 2
3. jhhdk: If you play first, I aethersnatch one of your threat and aethersnatch or counter the other card you play. If I play the UR dragon first it outclasses your threats and I can counter Aluren or Casualties of war. 6-0 --> 8
4. Wrath of Pie: Whoever plays first looses. 2-2 --> 10
5. Alphastryk: Whoever plays first looses. 2-2 --> 12
6. Me.
7. Serguei: You can allways play wheel and deal as the first spell and win from there because you'll get a guile in the end. 0-6 --> 12
8. Reeplcheep: If you play anything, I can aethersnatch it. So if you try to play dragonlord, I aethersnatch it and win, so you try to counter but I counter mindbreak trap and win. So you don't do that. If you try to play arbiter T1, It's the same scenario. If you try to play something with flash, You can't play a second spell so I win. So you don't do anything, but I have a 10/10 and wins from there. 6-0 --> 18
9. Goblinsmashmaster: If you try to play grand arbiter, I can Aethersnatch it so you counter and I counter for the win, so you don't do anything. If I try to play The Ur-dragon, You spelljack it, I Aethersnatch your spelljack and you counter my aethersnatch. Draw. 2-2 --> 20
10. FTW: Best tech, having a free 1/1. 0-6 --> 20
11. H: Same as others: If you try to do something, I aethersnatch it. If you try to do something after I aethersnatch it. So you don't do anything. However, when it's my turn, I can play a 10/10 with aethersnatch back up. whatever you do, I win because a 10/10 is faster than a 6/6 even with a free turn). 6-0 --> 26
12. Maxx!: If you try to play something, I can aethersnatch it. If you play something else I can do that also. If you don't do anything, I have a 10/10 to kill you. 6-0 --> 32
13. Silkster: another 1/1 to kill me :) 0-6 --> 32

Total 32: I knew I was bound to get that many draws with that deck. But I was afraid to play a T1 deck like 2x Vengevine + 2x Craterhoof behemoth or 4x Demi-god of revenge for good reasons. WHeel and deal being an instant is huge against aethersnatch. I don't understand why people played spelljack over it, because it counters and there are uncounterable spells.

alphastryk

01-27-2021, 09:41 AM

This meta seems about right. I agree with Reeplcheep in that building your own Sphere effect is the way to go, I just didn't manage to solve that particular puzzle. Having the red chancellor is also a good call because it produces a threat in a non-interactive way which is big.

Results for round https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iof5pRAIZmw:

1. Asthereal (TO): Guile, Spelljack, Draining Whelk, Chromium, the Mutable
Draining Whelk is a good call, is its a Counterspell that leaves a threat behind. I really wish I'd know about Aethersnatch! the noncreature clause on Commandeer bites me here, as you can play Chromium, I have to Trap it and then you can Whelk the Trap and I can't interact. If I try to be proactive and play a Guile, you can Spelljack and if I counter that you can Whelk. I can't ever get through. LL

0-6

2. dte: Chancellor of the forge, Counterflux, Torrential gearhulk, Aethersnatch
The chancellor sets it up so I have to try to be proactive or die to the goblin. If I try to be proactive, you have 2 counterspells to my one and I can't get through. LL

0-6

3. jhhdk: Aluren, Casualties of War, Cavern Harpy, Parasitic Strix
I should always be able to counter Alluren if you play it, and Guile beats your creatures in combat. WW

6-0

4. Wrath of Pie: Time Stop, Spelljack, Guile, Guile
I think the double Guile mirror is almost always a staring contest. EDIT: However, Comandeer can't counter creatures, so if you just jam both Guiles on your turn 1 you get one of them through and win the race. DL

1-4

5. alphastryk: Mindbreak Trap, Commandeer, Guile, Guile
This is me

6. Tylert: Aethersnatch, Aethersnatch, Counterflux, The Ur-Dragon
I can't be proactive or I lose the counter war, especially with your double Aethersnatch. If you ever play your Dragon however, I win the counter war. This ends up being a staring contest. DD

2-2

7. Serguei: Guile, Guile, Wheel and Deal, Mindbreak Trap
EDIT: Thanks to Tylert for figuring it out. You will allways play wheel and deal at my EOT. So if I play the counter war, you will end up with 2 Guiles in the graveyard at the beginning of his turn and will be able to cast it first and win.
If I try to Guile first, you answers with Wheel and Deal that you have to counter while I can, and you can Mindbreak Trap my Guile for the win. LL

0-6

8. Reeplcheep: Savage Summoning, Dragonlord Dromoka, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV , Mindbreak Trap
The noncreature clause on Commandeer bites me again here, otherwise this would be a staring match. LL

0-6

9. GoblinSmashmaster: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Miraculous Recovery, Spelljack, Mindbreak Trap
If you ever try to proactively play Grand Aribter, I Trap it, you counter that back, and I Commandeer your counter, so that doesn't work for you. If I ever try to play Guile discarding Guile, You cast one of your counters but I'm able to counter back. Then Guile beats Grand Arbiter in combat even if you play it as a follow up. WW

6-0

10. FTW: Chancellor of the Forge, Dualcaster Mage, Discontinuity, Spelljack
Another goblin forcing me to be proactive. if I play a Guile, you counter, I counter back and you Dualcaster Mage my counter. LL

0-6

11. H: Guile, Guile, Nexus of Fate, Last Word
OTP, I play my Guile and you have to try to Last Word. If you do, I can Trap back. and get it through. OTD, you can try for your own Guile, but I can counter twice to your single counterspell. Either way, we both end up exhausting our counters and it becomes a Guile race since they are all essentially unblockable. Due to my 2 counterspells, I think I can always end up with a Guile in play 1 turn earlier to win the race. WW

6-0

12. maxx!: Slaughter Games, Counterflux, Surrak Dragonclaw, Sandstorm Eidolon
Sandstorm Eidolon is awesome tech! it lets you essentially have 3 spells when everyone else only has 2 available.
OTP: I can lead with Guile right away, but because Surrak has Flash I never get to win a race. even though I can push a Guile through. Looks like a staring contest. D
OTD: You can lead with Slaughter Games which I have to Trap, you can Counterflux back but then I Commandeer. You can play Surrak but I eventually get a Guile and we end up staring at each other over 6/6s again. D

2-2

13. silkster: Counterflux, Aethersnatch, Take Possession, Chancellor of the Forge
Yet another chancellor producing a goblin to steal the initiative. Again with 2 counterspells. LL

0-6

Total: 23 points

dte

01-27-2021, 09:50 AM

Edit2: Dualcaster Mage over a counter helped me out vs H and maxx!'s uncounterable spells, Spelljack was sufficient vs the 2x Guile decks, while Counterflux only would have helped vs Asthereal I think.

How does counterflux help against Asthereal (interested question)?
The MU is a bit hard to figure out.

FTW

01-27-2021, 10:03 AM

How does counterflux help against Asthereal (interested question)?
The MU is a bit hard to figure out.

I don't think it helps you but it helps me.

Discontinuity ending the turn stops the line of Chromium discarding Guile for value, exiling both the uncounterable creature and the Guile trigger (and if he tries to counter I Dualcast Discontinuity and REALLY End The Turn, with a bonus 2/2 - Counterflux would also work).

His optimal line is to Chromium discarding some other card, forcing me to still End the Turn to counter it because I played Spelljack instead of Aethersnatch so I can't steal it. That leaves him with only 2 cards in hand, only able to play either Whelk or Guile. If he tries to cast either, Counterflux can counter it and win but Dualcaster Mage cannot stop a creature, and casting Chancellor can only draw vs Guile.

In your case I don't think it helps because you can't End the Turn, so he gets to recur Guile and play a 3rd thing.

Tylert

01-27-2021, 10:05 AM

7. Serguei: Guile, Guile, Wheel and Deal, Mindbreak Trap
OTP you can’t beat arbiter into dramoka. OTD I can only cast 1 spell on your turn, so no matter what you wheel, MBT my first spell, then win with guile beats.WL 3-3

Wheal and deal is an instant. So it can be played in your upkeep. If you try to flash something in response, serguei can mindbreak trap it. one guile will come back. It's more a 0-6

dte

01-27-2021, 10:15 AM

10. FTW: Chancellor of the Forge, Dualcaster Mage, Discontinuity, Spelljack

13. silkster: Same as dte match. Our 1/1s stare. If you play a spell first, you can't win the counter war. If you try to play 2 proactive things (Chancellor and Take Possession), I can't counter both but I can counter the Chancellor and let you steal my 1/1, then play my own Chancellor... so that is bad for you. DD 2-2

Can't Silk just steal the gob and counter any creature you play?

Tylert

01-27-2021, 10:22 AM

7. Serguei: Guile, Guile, Wheel and Deal, Mindbreak Trap
OTP, I play my Guile and you have to try to Trap it. If you do, I can counter back. and get it through. OTD, you can try for Wheel and Deal or Guile, but I can counter twice to your single counterspell. Either way, we both end up exhausting our counters and it becomes a Guile race since they are all essentially unblockable. Due to my 2 counterspells, I think I can always end up with a Guile in play 1 turn earlier to win the race. WW

6-0

Seguei will allways play wheel and deal at your EOT (it's an instant). So if you play the counter war, he will end up with 2 guiles in the graveyard at the beginning of his turn and will be able to cast it first and win.
If you try to guile first, Serguei answers with wheel and deal that you have to counter and he can mindbreak trap your guile for the win.

So it's more 0-6 I think.

FTW

01-27-2021, 10:23 AM

Can't Silk just steal the gob and counter any creature you play?

Edit: I'm wrong. I can't respond to Take Possession due to Split Second. But I could Spelljack my own creature to dodge his counter, then recast it to win.

Wrath of Pie

01-27-2021, 10:25 AM

4. Wrath of Pie: Time Stop, Spelljack, Guile, Guile

1. Asthereal (TO): Guile, Spelljack, Draining Whelk, Chromium, the Mutable DD - I expect to see this result a lot.
2. dte: Chancellor of the forge, Counterflux, Torrential gearhulk, Aethersnatch LL - Aethersnatch is definitely better than Spelljack (most of the time, that is).
3. jhhdk: Aluren, Casualties of War, Cavern Harpy, Parasitic Strix WW
5. alphastryk: Mindbreak Trap, Commandeer, Guile, Guile WD - On the play I can actually resolve Guile first (Commandeer can't hit creatures, so I just cast both Guiles). On the draw you have to cast something to force me to use Time Stop to avoid Guile reshuffles, and Guile + Mindbreak Trap backup does the trick.
6. Tylert: Aethersnatch, Aethersnatch, Counterflux, The Ur-Dragon DD
7. Serguei: Guile, Guile, Wheel and Deal, Mindbreak Trap DD - Time Stop does things!
8. Reeplcheep: Savage Summoning, Dragonlord Dromoka, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV , Mindbreak Trap DD
9. GoblinSmashmaster: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Miraculous Recovery, Spelljack, Mindbreak Trap WD - I can force a Guile through on the play.
10. FTW: Chancellor of the Forge, Dualcaster Mage, Discontinuity, Spelljack LL
11. H: Guile, Guile, Nexus of Fate, Last Word WD - I cast Guile pitching the other Guile. If you Last Word it, I let it resolve and wait to Spelljack if you cast your own Guile. Otherwise, I just wait to redraw my Guiles and cast it again. On the draw, you cast Guile pitching Nexus, and I have to Spelljack because you just pass if I cast Time Stop and win later, so you Last Word to force the Guile through and I have to Time Stop to draw.
12. maxx!: Slaughter Games, Counterflux, Surrak Dragonclaw, Sandstorm Eidolon LL
13. silkster: Counterflux, Aethersnatch, Take Possession, Chancellor of the Forge LL

5w11d = 26 points

My analysis led to double-counterspell being a virtual requirement. I did consider Tabernacle, but the issue is that only leaves you with three cards, and the noncreature win conditions were a bit lacking. On the other hand, it would have done things against the incredibly techy Chancellor of the Forge that I missed and might have been a trump in some of the Guile mirrors, so I probably should have just accepted the 3 card hand (probably with Beacon of Destruction as the win condition, which makes Spelljack actually better than Aethersnatch in this case) and the draws I was bound to get anyways. (Grand Arbiter Augustin IV was also on my list, but sorcery-speed threats are sort of bad in this format.)

dte

01-27-2021, 10:26 AM

If he doesn't play Chancellor and steals the Gob holding up Counterflux, I can flash in Dualcaster in response to get a 2/2 (which would draw his two 1/1s). If he counters it, I End the Turn countering the stack and he doesn't steal my Gob. Draws either way?

Take possession has split second ;)

Tylert

01-27-2021, 10:32 AM

Take possession has split second ;)

Split second!! That was probably the way to break the format... nothing can answer that.

dte

01-27-2021, 10:33 AM

I did consider Tabernacle, but the issue is that only leaves you with three cards, and the noncreature win conditions were a bit lacking.

Actually tabby + shivan gorge + dust bowl + mercadian bazaar was my other deck, and would have done great.
My plan was crea + 2 counters, or no spell.

But I was scared of wheel and deal, and of combo decks that kill T1 / without attacking.

Tylert

01-27-2021, 10:34 AM

7. Serguei: Guile, Guile, Wheel and Deal, Mindbreak Trap DD?

See my explanation for the alphastryk match up.

Seguei will allways play wheel and deal at your EOT (it's an instant). So if you play the counter war, he will end up with 2 guiles in the graveyard at the beginning of his turn and will be able to cast it first and win.
If you try to guile first, Serguei answers with wheel and deal that you have to counter and he can mindbreak trap your guile for the win.
more 0-6 I think.

FTW

01-27-2021, 10:35 AM

Take possession has split second ;)

Ah, right, it's not just uncounterable. So he takes my token. I have to play a creature to answer the board, he can counterflux it,and if I End the Turn I counter my own creature.

EDIT: Wait, I can't counter his Counterflux on my Chancellor, but I can Spelljack my own creature in response and then recast the Chancellor to win! So I think he has to hold back Take Possession to have a 2nd counter and we stare. Whoever plays the first permanent loses.

Wrath of Pie

01-27-2021, 10:38 AM

Split second!! That was probably the way to break the format... nothing can answer that.

I did look at split second threats, but none of them beat Guile in a race.

alphastryk

01-27-2021, 10:43 AM

FTW

01-27-2021, 11:39 AM

Seguei will allways play wheel and deal at your EOT (it's an instant). So if you play the counter war, he will end up with 2 guiles in the graveyard at the beginning of his turn and will be able to cast it first and win.
If you try to guile first, Serguei answers with wheel and deal that you have to counter and he can mindbreak trap your guile for the win.
more 0-6 I think.

Does that work here?

If he plays Wheel and Deal (discard Guile) at EOT, Wrath responds with the Guile trigger on the stack playing Spelljack (discarding Guile), threatening to steal the Wheel and cast it back on top of the stack. Serguei must respond to the stack with Mindbreak Trap (discard other Guile), then Wrath responds with that Guile trigger on the stack with Time Stop (discarding last Guile) Ending the Turn. All spells are countered and 3/4 Guiles don't get reshuffled for the draw.

DD 2-2?

End the Turn is tech against shenanigans

dte

01-27-2021, 11:44 AM

End the Turn is tech against shenanigans

Yes, end the turn was a really great tech. Its combination with dualcaster too.

Wrath of Pie

01-27-2021, 12:26 PM

Actually tabby + shivan gorge + dust bowl + mercadian bazaar was my other deck, and would have done great.
My plan was crea + 2 counters, or no spell.

But I was scared of wheel and deal, and of combo decks that kill T1 / without attacking.
Emrakul would have helped against Wheel and Deal, and I would have just accepted losing to T1 combo because counterspells were likely going to be everywhere.

dte

01-27-2021, 12:56 PM

Emrakul would have helped against Wheel and Deal, and I would have just accepted losing to T1 combo because counterspells were likely going to be everywhere.

Yes, it would have been smarter. And fun to win T80 on the dream halls round just after the Canadian round :)

Tylert

01-27-2021, 01:54 PM

Does that work here?

If he plays Wheel and Deal (discard Guile) at EOT, Wrath responds with the Guile trigger on the stack playing Spelljack (discarding Guile), threatening to steal the Wheel and cast it back on top of the stack. Serguei must respond to the stack with Mindbreak Trap (discard other Guile), then Wrath responds with that Guile trigger on the stack with Time Stop (discarding last Guile) Ending the Turn. All spells are countered and 3/4 Guiles don't get reshuffled for the draw.

DD 2-2?

End the Turn is tech against shenanigans

Yeah so for any match up where the opponent doesn't play a "End the turn effect" my analysis works. For all others it doesn't and it leads to DD.

GoblinSmashmaster

01-27-2021, 02:35 PM

GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "Guiles for a while"

1. Asthereal (TO): Guile, Spelljack, Draining Whelk, Chromium, the Mutable
2 many counters :( 0-6

2. dte: Chancellor of the forge, Counterflux, Torrential gearhulk, Aethersnatch
Goblin smash :( 0-6

3. jhhdk: Aluren, Casualties of War, Cavern Harpy, Parasitic Strix
Arbiter smash! 6-0

4. Wrath of Pie: Time Stop, Spelljack, Guile, Guile
Arbiter stopped 1-4

5. alphastryk: Mindbreak Trap, Commandeer, Guile, Guile
2 many counters :( 0-6

6. Tylert: Aethersnatch, Aethersnatch, Counterflux, The Ur-Dragon
2 many counters :( 0-6

7. Serguei: Guile, Guile, Wheel and Deal, Mindbreak Trap
No deal 0-6

8. Reeplcheep: Savage Summoning, Dragonlord Dromoka, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV , Mindbreak Trap
Your Arbiter is savage 4-1

9. GoblinSmashmaster: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Miraculous Recovery, Spelljack, Mindbreak Trap
That's me making an unmiraculous deck :(

10. FTW: Chancellor of the Forge, Dualcaster Mage, Discontinuity, Spelljack
Goblin smash :( 0-6

11. H: Guile, Guile, Nexus of Fate, Last Word
Arbiter has the last word 3-3

12. maxx!: Slaughter Games, Counterflux, Surrak Dragonclaw, Sandstorm Eidolon
Arbiter slaughtered by Dragon :( 0-6

13. silkster: Counterflux, Aethersnatch, Take Possession, Chancellor of the Forge
Goblin smash :( 0-6

Total: 14 points

FTW

01-27-2021, 02:46 PM

GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "Guiles for a while"

7. Serguei: Guile, Guile, Wheel and Deal, Mindbreak Trap
Miraculous Arbiter cuts a deal 6-0

9. GoblinSmashmaster: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Miraculous Recovery, Spelljack, Mindbreak Trap
That's me forgetting to smash with Goblins

Are you assuming that you can use Grand Arbiter Augustin IV to pay for Miraculous Recovery targetting Augustin, making a 3/4 Arbiter at instant speed on turn 0 or in response to the stack, while holding up Mindbreak Trap/Spelljack as protection??

That would be amazing. Except Dream Halls doesn't work like that. You have to declare targets for Miraculous Recovery before paying the costs (discarding Augustin). So Miraculous Recovery actually does nothing in your deck. It's a dead card. Being white means you can't even pitch it to double counter, so it's basically worse than Squire and can only be used to cast Arbiter at sorcery speed.

It would have been a lot better as Guile.

Tylert

01-27-2021, 03:25 PM

Are you assuming that you can use Grand Arbiter Augustin IV to pay for Miraculous Recovery targetting Augustin, making a 3/4 Arbiter at instant speed on turn 0 or in response to the stack, while holding up Mindbreak Trap/Spelljack as protection??

That would be amazing. Except Dream Halls doesn't work like that. You have to declare targets for Miraculous Recovery before paying the costs (discarding Augustin). So Miraculous Recovery actually does nothing in your deck. It's a dead card. Being white means you can't even pitch it to double counter, so it's basically worse than Squire and can only be used to cast Arbiter at sorcery speed.

It would have been a lot better as Guile.

Yeah. You have to target when you put your spell in the pile, but you pay costs right after it so it doesn't work.

Serguei

01-27-2021, 04:23 PM

Serguei: Guile, Guile, Wheel and Deal, Mindbreak Trap

1. Asthereal (TO): Guile, Spelljack, Draining Whelk, Chromium, the Mutable
For me it is a draw.
If you try to cast something, I am answering by wheel and deal to force you your last spell out. If you let it it resolves you have no more cards and I can Mindbreak trap you first spell. If you try to resolves a second spell, I just mind break the 2 spells and Guile will finish you. So it is not the line.

If I try to cast wheel and deal, you will just Spell jack it. and either finish me with chomium or draining whelk.
DD 2 points

2. dte: Chancellor of the forge, Counterflux, Torrential gearhulk, Aethersnatch

7. Serguei: Guile, Guile, Wheel and Deal, Mindbreak Trap
6-0, see WoP.
32

I am sorry but I do not see the same here.
At the end of your first turn, I will be at 19 because you will have smash me for 1 with the gobs. I will play wheel and deal discarding guile. You will try to counter it with whatever you want or even try to steal it. I will answer answer with mindbreak trap and you will answer with gearhulk copying a counterspell to empty the stack and counter everything.
Next turn I will draw my first guile.
At your turn you smash me for 6, I am going to 13.
Next turn I am drawing my second guile and I can cast it. so I will have a 6/6 and you a 1/1 and a 5/6. At your turn you cannot attack me, otherwise I will block gearhulk then smashing you to death with guile.
Then I cannot attack you because you will need 3 turns to kill me whereas I would need 4 turns to kill you.

DD -2 points

3. jhhdk: Aluren, Casualties of War, Cavern Harpy, Parasitic Strix

You will never able to cast anything I will empty your hand at the very first upkeep and win with guile WW 6pts

4. Wrath of Pie: Time Stop, Spelljack, Guile, Guile

7. Serguei: Guile, Guile, Wheel and Deal, Mindbreak Trap DD - Time Stop does things!

DD -2 pts

5. alphastryk: Mindbreak Trap, Commandeer, Guile, Guile

7. Serguei: Guile, Guile, Wheel and Deal, Mindbreak Trap
EDIT: Thanks to Tylert for figuring it out. You will allways play wheel and deal at my EOT. So if I play the counter war, you will end up with 2 Guiles in the graveyard at the beginning of his turn and will be able to cast it first and win.
If I try to Guile first, you answers with Wheel and Deal that you have to counter while I can, and you can Mindbreak Trap my Guile for the win. LL
0-6

WW 6 pts

6. Tylert: Aethersnatch, Aethersnatch, Counterflux, The Ur-Dragon

7. Serguei: You can allways play wheel and deal as the first spell and win from there because you'll get a guile in the end. 0-6 --> 12

WW 6pts

8. Reeplcheep: Savage Summoning, Dragonlord Dromoka, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV , Mindbreak Trap

7. Serguei: Guile, Guile, Wheel and Deal, Mindbreak Trap
OTP you can’t beat arbiter into dramoka. OTD I can only cast 1 spell on your turn, so no matter what you wheel, MBT my first spell, then win with guile beats.WL 3-3

Sadly for you there is no difference for me to be OTD or OTP I can always play wheel and deal at first upkeep removing you the chance to cast a single creature
WW 6-0

9. GoblinSmashmaster: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Miraculous Recovery, Spelljack, Mindbreak Trap

Miraculous recovery on grand arbiter does not work sadly for you.
So at the very first upkeep I will epmty your hand, and finish to draw 2 guile to be able to cast one and finishing you.

WW - 6pts

10. FTW: Chancellor of the Forge, Dualcaster Mage, Discontinuity, Spelljack

7. Serguei: If you try to Wheel and Deal me, I Dualcast it back at you with the Guile trigger on the stack. If you either counter my Wheel or let it resolve, I End the Turn countering yours and your Guile triggers. Otherwise this is like Wrath and alphastryk. WW 6-0

LL 0pts
11. H: Guile, Guile, Nexus of Fate, Last Word
when you are starting, You cannot cast a guile, otherwise I will force you out your last spell by casting wheel and deal (discarding guile) if you let it resolves you will finish with a nexus in hand a guile in graveyard with its shuffiling ability on the stack and another guile on the stack. I will be able to mind break trap the guile on the stack. we resolve the wheel and I draw a guile. At my next turn I draw my second guile and cast it and it will finish you.
If you try to answer with a nexus I will mindbreak your two spells so that is not the line.

So at the end of your turn, I will play a wheel and deal (discard Guile) If you answer with Nexus discarding guile, I am letting it resolves shuffling your guile and nexus. You will discard your two last cards and you will draw the guile and nexus, and from here you will not be able ever to cast a guile otherwise it will be mindbreaktrapped. and I will resolve first a guile.

If I am starting the game I pass the turn, and e are going back in the first situation

WW 6-0

12. maxx!: Slaughter Games, Counterflux, Surrak Dragonclaw, Sandstorm Eidolon

If you are playing a spell, I am answering with wheel and deal, you will have to counter it, Then I will mindbreak trap your 2 spells. Then I will draw 2 guile to be able to cast one and finishing you.

At your first upkeep, I Will cast wheel and deal, you cast surrak I let it resolves. You will try counterflux and I will trap the counterflux. You willl have no hand and we will resolve the wheel I will draw my first guile. At my turn I will draw my second guile and I will cast one. Then from here I willl win as you have no more cards in hand a Surrak against a guile. if you block I will be able to replay it and you will not. And if you attack I will definitively block.

WW 6 pts

13. silkster: Counterflux, Aethersnatch, Take Possession, Chancellor of the Forge
at first upkeep, I will cast a wheel and deal forcing you to counter it. I will answer by mindbreak. You will have to answer it or let it resolves letting you with no cards in hand and with only a 1/1. I will redraw 2 guile and be able to recast one to win the race

WW 6 pts

54 points

Wrath of Pie

01-27-2021, 04:31 PM

Are you assuming that you can use Grand Arbiter Augustin IV to pay for Miraculous Recovery targetting Augustin, making a 3/4 Arbiter at instant speed on turn 0 or in response to the stack, while holding up Mindbreak Trap/Spelljack as protection??

That would be amazing. Except Dream Halls doesn't work like that. You have to declare targets for Miraculous Recovery before paying the costs (discarding Augustin). So Miraculous Recovery actually does nothing in your deck. It's a dead card. Being white means you can't even pitch it to double counter, so it's basically worse than Squire and can only be used to cast Arbiter at sorcery speed.

It would have been a lot better as Guile.

Hilariously enough, this led me away from considering Cavern of Souls, because it isn't even compatible with the Dream Halls effect (except against Arbiter, ironically), and even if it were, end the turn effects were too good.

dte

01-27-2021, 04:46 PM

2. dte: Chancellor of the forge, Counterflux, Torrential gearhulk, Aethersnatch

I am sorry but I do not see the same here.
At the end of your first turn, I will be at 19 because you will have smash me for 1 with the gobs. I will play wheel and deal discarding guile. You will try to counter it with whatever you want or even try to steal it. I will answer answer with mindbreak trap and you will answer with gearhulk copying a counterspell to empty the stack and counter everything.
Next turn I will draw my first guile.
At your turn you smash me for 6, I am going to 13.
Next turn I am drawing my second guile and I can cast it. so I will have a 6/6 and you a 1/1 and a 5/6. At your turn you cannot attack me, otherwise I will block gearhulk then smashing you to death with guile.
Then I cannot attack you because you will need 3 turns to kill me whereas I would need 4 turns to kill you.

DD -2 points

Indeed, mindbreak trap does not care that counterflux is uncounterable. 2-2.

I think you'll also draw vs FTW:

Serguei: Guile, Guile, Wheel and Deal, Mindbreak Trap

10. FTW: Chancellor of the Forge, Dualcaster Mage, Discontinuity, Spelljack

LL -0pt

Both of you agree here, but what happens if you just cast guiles, discarding Wheel and trap?
Guile, discarding wheel --> discontinuity, discarding spell jack.
chancellor, 3 gobs attack.
guile, discarding trap: staring contest.

Serguei

01-27-2021, 05:00 PM

Indeed, mindbreak trap does not care that counterflux is uncounterable. 2-2.

I think you'll also draw vs FTW:

Both of you agree here, but what happens if you just cast guiles, discarding Wheel and trap?
Guile, discarding wheel --> discontinuity, discarding spell jack.
chancellor, 3 gobs attack.
guile, discarding trap: staring contest.

You have right I dit not see this line. It leader to a draw

jhhdk

01-27-2021, 05:12 PM

Bringing a pillow to gun fight.
1. Asthereal (TO): Guile, Spelljack, Draining Whelk, Chromium, the Mutable LL
2. dte: Chancellor of the forge, Counterflux, Torrential gearhulk, Aethersnatch LL
3. jhhdk: Aluren, Casualties of War, Cavern Harpy, Parasitic Strix <--- Me
4. Wrath of Pie: Time Stop, Spelljack, Guile, Guile LL
5. alphastryk: Mindbreak Trap, Commandeer, Guile, Guile LL
6. Tylert: Aethersnatch, Aethersnatch, Counterflux, The Ur-Dragon LL
7. Serguei: Guile, Guile, Wheel and Deal, Mindbreak Trap LL
8. Reeplcheep: Savage Summoning, Dragonlord Dromoka, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV , Mindbreak Trap LL
9. GoblinSmashmaster: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Miraculous Recovery, Spelljack, Mindbreak Trap LL
10. FTW: Chancellor of the Forge, Dualcaster Mage, Discontinuity, Spelljack LL
11. H: Guile, Guile, Nexus of Fate, Last Word LL
12. maxx!: Slaughter Games, Counterflux, Surrak Dragonclaw, Sandstorm Eidolon LL
13. silkster: Counterflux, Aethersnatch, Take Possession, Chancellor of the Forge LL

I dare say i expect to do better next round.

dte

01-27-2021, 05:14 PM

You have right I dit not see this line. It leader to a draw

Actually I was wrong, sorry: FTW will spell jack your guile, and then you lose as guiles are basically unblock able.

FTW

01-27-2021, 05:52 PM

Edit: Nevermind you already caught this. Yeah, it's the same line I use against the other 2xGuile decks.
The only thing different here is he could also try to Wheel me, but I can beat that with Dualcaster.

I think you'll also draw vs FTW:

Both of you agree here, but what happens if you just cast guiles, discarding Wheel and trap?
Guile, discarding wheel --> discontinuity, discarding spell jack.
chancellor, 3 gobs attack.
guile, discarding trap: staring contest.

I only use Discontinuity if he pays for Guile by discarding Guile, to get rid of both at once. Otherwise I steal his Guile.

Guile, discarding wheel -> Spelljack the Guile, discarding Discontinuity
If he Mindbreaks, I Dualcast copying Mindbreak and exile his counter. I end up with a 6/6 + 2/2 + 1/1 vs his empty board, so this backfires.
If he lets Spelljack through and tries to cast a 2nd Guile, then I cast both his Guile and my Chancellor -> +3 gobs

Then Guile + Chancellor + 4 goblins > Guile.
2 goblins + Chancellor can even gangblock Guile, so this is an easy race.

WW for me?

Wrath of Pie

01-27-2021, 06:23 PM

Serguei

01-28-2021, 02:02 AM

Edit: Nevermind you already caught this. Yeah, it's the same line I use against the other 2xGuile decks.
The only thing different here is he could also try to Wheel me, but I can beat that with Dualcaster.

I only use Discontinuity if he pays for Guile by discarding Guile, to get rid of both at once. Otherwise I steal his Guile.

Guile, discarding wheel -> Spelljack the Guile, discarding Discontinuity
If he Mindbreaks, I Dualcast copying Mindbreak and exile his counter. I end up with a 6/6 + 2/2 + 1/1 vs his empty board, so this backfires.
If he lets Spelljack through and tries to cast a 2nd Guile, then I cast both his Guile and my Chancellor -> +3 gobs

Then Guile + Chancellor + 4 goblins > Guile.
2 goblins + Chancellor can even gangblock Guile, so this is an easy race.

WW for me?
Yes

Reeplcheep

01-28-2021, 10:38 AM

8. Reeplcheep: Savage Summoning, Dragonlord Dromoka, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV , Mindbreak Trap

Sadly for you there is no difference for me to be OTD or OTP I can always play wheel and deal at first upkeep removing you the chance to cast a single creature
WW 6-0

Yes my mistake.

Serguei

01-29-2021, 02:46 AM

jhhdk

01-29-2021, 04:06 AM

Thespian's Stage
Dark Depths
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Would've been pretty cool too, the factories are a bit slow on their own.

dte

01-29-2021, 04:19 AM

After seeing this metagame full of control and counter this list would have been devastating

Mishra's Factory
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Dark Depths

What a shame not to play a single spell under dream halls :)

Thespian's Stage
Dark Depths
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Would've been pretty cool too, the factories are a bit slow on their own.

Serguei's deck would have beaten Silkster, jhhdk's wouldn't.
Factories do not need to be fast, tabernacle is :)

Otherwise, what about Tylert's proposition to restrict next round to creatures and lands?
I think it's a great idea, as I fear otherwise the rules won't be used much, and it wouldn't be very "berserker" or deviant.

Asthereal

01-29-2021, 05:04 AM

Otherwise, what about Tylert's proposition to restrict next round to creatures and lands?
I think it's a great idea, as I fear otherwise the rules won't be used much, and it wouldn't be very "berserker" or deviant.
I was originally against this, as it would invalidate creature removal, which to me feels like a staple in such a round.
But how does the rest feel about it? We could do another last minute change if enough people are in favour.

Wrath of Pie

01-29-2021, 06:18 AM

Anything that makes it not secretly normal Legacy is great, because I was all set to play Ensnaring Bridge.

Asthereal

01-29-2021, 06:34 AM

Asthereal's score for round FoW clone:

1. Asthereal (TO): Guile, Spelljack, Draining Whelk, Chromium, the Mutable
That's me. More creative this time with fun stuff like a flash uncounterable 7/7 flyer and creatures that counter. Cute, but I forgot about all sorts of stuff and it ended up a lot weaker than I had hoped.
2. dte: Chancellor of the forge, Counterflux, Torrential gearhulk, Aethersnatch [B]
EDIT: I can't go for Chomium as Snatch steals it when it's a spell rather than a creature. Reading is tech. Re-evaluating below. 0-6
3. jhhdk: Aluren, Casualties of War, Cavern Harpy, Parasitic Strix
This deck has a slight flaw where it can't cast both Alluren and Casualties. The other two cards lose to my 7/7 flyer, so I just make that, and counter whichever of the two dangerous cards you decide to cast with my Whelk. 6-0
4. Wrath of Pie: Time Stop, Spelljack, Guile, Guile
Whoever decides to go do a thing loses here, I think. This might happen more often... 2-2
5. alphastryk: Mindbreak Trap, Commandeer, Guile, Guile
Luckily, one of your counters doesn't stop creatures, so my choice of Whelk really pays off here. I make Chromium, you can try to use Trap, but I'll Whelk that and Chromium resolves. Afterwards, redrawing your Guiles happens too slowly to be able to race the 7/7 flyer, especially since I of course cast it at the end of your turn. 6-0
6. Tylert: Aethersnatch, Aethersnatch, Counterflux, The Ur-Dragon
Another whoever does a thing loses. This time because I can't allow you to resolve the 10/10 flyer. If you had a Guile here, I could have gone for it, but that dragon is a bit too much. :smile: 2-2
7. Serguei: Guile, Guile, Wheel and Deal, Mindbreak Trap
EDIT: Nope. Trap can take out two things at once, so if I go for Chromium, you can in response Wheel. If I counter that, Trap can counter both my things. And if I let Wheel resolve, I lose my stuff and you can still Trap my Chromium because it's still on the stack. So we both can't be the one who starts casting stuff. 2-2
8. Reeplcheep: Savage Summoning, Dragonlord Dromoka, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV , Mindbreak Trap
So your deck can make an uncounterable instant speed 3/4 Augustin IV. If you try to do that, I'll respond by making Chromium and race you. So you have to go for Dromoka and try to use Trap. You cast Dromoka, I'll cast Chromium. If you Trap now, I'll Whelk it and win the race. So you let Chromium resolve. We now have a 5/7 flying lifelink against a 7/7 flying with some fancy yet irrelevant abilities. If I now do another thing, you'll Trap it, and if you do another thing, I'll Whelk it, so that's a standoff. Let's look at the attacks. You can't attack fist, obviously. If I attack, you take it and attack back, but the lifelink makes you win that race easily. So I also can't attack and we have two staredowns. I'm guessing this will be 2-2.
9. GoblinSmashmaster: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Miraculous Recovery, Spelljack, Mindbreak Trap
10. FTW: Chancellor of the Forge, Dualcaster Mage, Discontinuity, Spelljack
FTW already dissected this. Actuallly you get 8 power, but the 5/5 can never attack into the 6/6, and the 1/1s won't get there. 2-2
11. H: Guile, Guile, Nexus of Fate, Last Word
Interesting: you can make both Guiles over and over. Thankfully you can't interact with Chromium, which will race one Guile, and casting the second allows me to Spelljack it. So I think I win this 6-0.
12. maxx!: Slaughter Games, Counterflux, Surrak Dragonclaw, Sandstorm Eidolon
My deck has flash, which is really good against Slaughter Games. Also, my Chromium races Surrak and can't be countered, so I think I win this quite confortably. Really cool deck though! 6-0
13. silkster: Counterflux, Aethersnatch, Take Possession, Chancellor of the Forge
Hahahaha! ... no. 0-6

Total: 40 points.

EDIT: Resolved the disagreements in the matches against dte and Serguei.

dte

01-29-2021, 07:04 AM

1. Asthereal (TO): Guile, Spelljack, Draining Whelk, Chromium, the Mutable
That's me. More creative this time with fun stuff like a flash uncounterable 7/7 flyer and creatures that counter. Cute, but I forgot about all sorts of stuff and it ended up a lot weaker than I had hoped.
2. dte: Chancellor of the forge, Counterflux, Torrential gearhulk, Aethersnatch <- disagreement here
OTP and OTD I plan to cast Chromium, discarding Guile, at the end step of your first turn. You could discard Gearhulk to Snatch it then, but I'll just discard Spelljack and make it a 1/1 hexproof until end of turn (considering your remark in your results post, I think you missed that clause). So you wait in order to be able to use the Gearhulk and have a body and threaten Snatch. During my turn, I'll draw Guile again and attack with Chromium for 7, putting you to 13, and then pass the turn. Now you can make Gearhulk by discarding Snatch and then cast Snatch. In response I discard Guile to make Chromium a 1/1 hexproof UEOT. Next turn, the board will be my 7/7 flyer against your 1/1 token and 5/6 hulk, with you on 13 life, so you'll die in two turns, so I'll win that.
Now let's go back to your first turn. As I'll win the line above, you have to do something on your first turn. But if you start by discarding Flux to make the Chancellor, you won't have Flux up for when you try to Gearhulk-Snatch. This line will net you 2 more 1/1 haste tokens though, so let's have a look. You make the Chancellor and have a 5/5 and 3 1/1 haste guys. You attack with the gobbos. Let's see what happens if I just take the damage and go to 17. At your end step I make Chromium. You don't do anything, because you'll need the body of the Gearhulk and I have Whelk and Spelljack up. On my turn, I draw Guile and attack for 7 (d=13 / A=17) and pass. On your turn, if you discard Snatch to cast Gearhulk, I'll Whelk it and get a 7/7 bodym so you wait and try to race. You attack for 8 (A=9 / d=13) bneeding two more turns to kill me, while Chromium also needs two turns, but it'll be my turn next, so I win that race as well.
I don't see other lines that make sense, so think I win 6-0 here.

>OTP and OTD I plan to cast Chromium, discarding Guile, at the end step of your first turn.

If you cast chromium at any time, I discard Aethersnatch to cast gearhulk, then cast aethersnatch with gearhulk ETB ability, and take control of chromium as a spell. The spell do not have hexproof on the stack, and aethersnatch does not counter. You can answer that by any counter, but that would be met by counterflux.
So I end up with a gob, a chromium and a gearhulk vs your empty board :)

Asthereal

01-29-2021, 07:06 AM

>OTP and OTD I plan to cast Chromium, discarding Guile, at the end step of your first turn.

If you cast chromium at any time, I discard Aethersnatch to cast gearhulk, then cast aethersnatch with gearhulk ETB ability, and take control of chromium as a spell. You can answer that by any counter, but that would be met by counterflux.
So I end up with a gob, a chromium and a gearhulk vs your empty board :)
AH I read that card wrong. I may need to re-evaluate the other matchup as well.
So we both can't do anything and draw twice. 2-2

EDIT: Actually, how do I stop the 1/1 gobbo now I can't cast anything? Don't I just lose this?
Against FTW I could actually do things, but here I might not be able to.

EDIT2: Let's do a deep dive.
1. Asthereal (TO): Guile, Spelljack, Draining Whelk, Chromium, the Mutable
2. dte: Chancellor of the forge, Counterflux, Torrential gearhulk, Aethersnatch

So if I cast Chromium, I lose it to Snatch. But you have a 1/1 gobbo.
So what I'll do is this: at the end of your first turn, I discard Guile to make Whelk as a sorry 1/1. You let that resolve. I now draw Guile and pass. I now have Guile, Spelljack and Chromium.
If you now cast the Chancellor to try and win, I can discard Guile to Spelljack it. You can Gearhulk into Snatch to try and snatch it, but you'll have to have it counter the Aethersnatch, which in turn exiles Aethersnatch, netting you an exiled free Aethersnatch to stop my final play.
So I can't counter it. But then, I have only one play out of my 3 cards, so you can just steal that one play and win with the Chancellor.

I think I lose this 0-6, no?

dte

01-29-2021, 07:27 AM

EDIT: Actually, how do I stop the 1/1 gobbo now I can't cast anything? Don't I just lose this?

I thought you can draw by casting whelk, discarding guile.

I either let it resolve, resulting in a draw, or I counter it with counterflux, discarding chancellor.
If I take the second option, then you draw guile.
T2 you can: cast chromium or guile, that would be met by hulk>snatch. OK, then I would win this.

So you cannot start by whelk.
If you start by guile, discarding whelk, it ends up exactly the same way.

If you cast guile, discarding spelljack?
I take control of it with hulk/snatch, you cannot use whelk to counter it because of counterflux, so you have to cast chromium EoT and race. I attack for 1 (A19). If you flash in chromium to block, I can cast red chancellor one turn earlier, so not good on the race. As you cannot block guile, you attack (d13). I cast chancellor, + 4 gobs, attack with 5 gobs, guile and gearhulk --> A3, I win this race.

It seems I would win this. But I am unsure, as two days ago it seemed to me you could force a draw, but I cannot find any line for it anymore...
4 cards, a single turn, and such headaches ;)

EDIT: while I was writing what I though was most lines, you came up with others, with same ending. So I would agree and take the 6-0, unless you or someone else find another line.

dte

01-29-2021, 07:42 AM

On the other disagreement:

7. Serguei: Guile, Guile, Wheel and Deal, Mindbreak Trap <- disagreement here
I reckoned someone would be playing Wheel and Deal. That's why I went for two flash threats. If you cast Wheel, I'll make Chromium in response. You can Trap, but I'll then Whelk it and you'll only have one Guile left which loses to Chromium. So you let Chomium resolve. I now have to either lose my cards to Wheel or use them. So I'll use them to try and Spelljack the Wheel. If you let that resolve, you'll again only be able to make one Guile against the 7/7 flyer and I again win. But if you wait until I cast Chromium at the en dof your turn and then use Wheel, we run into the same problems. Conclusion: you cannot use Wheel and Deal at all.
So you have to try and race with two Guiles, but then you're allowing me to Whelk or Spelljack one, and Chromium still races the other anyway. So I think I win this 6-0.

EoT A cast chromium.
S respond with wheal and Deal, discarding guile.
A cannot cast anything that is not answering by trap, which would also answer chromium.
If wheal resolves, then A cannot answer trap on chromium.

So I think the first one to move loses, and Serguei's 2-2 analysis is valid.

Asthereal

01-29-2021, 08:07 AM

On the other disagreement:

EoT A cast chromium.
S respond with wheal and Deal, discarding guile.
A cannot cast anything that is not answering by trap, which would also answer chromium.
If wheal resolves, then A cannot answer trap on chromium.

So I think the first one to move loses, and Serguei's 2-2 analysis is valid.
Oh right, Trap takes out multiple spells. And if I let Wheel resolve, I lose my cards and Chromium is still on the stack, and will get Trapped anyway.
So we both just sit there. 2-2 it is.

EDIT: Funny and sad at the same time that I spend 10 minutes analysing a match only to completely misread or confuse cards and end up wasting all that time... :rolleyes:

alphastryk

01-29-2021, 08:43 AM

Anything that makes it not secretly normal Legacy is great, because I was all set to play Ensnaring Bridge.

Yes, without changes I'm pretty sure this round is secretly normal legacy.

Reeplcheep

01-29-2021, 08:49 AM

8. Reeplcheep: If you try to flash in Arbiter, I End the Turn and win, so that's a bad line for you. Your best line is to go for 2 threats. If you lead with Dragonlord, I have to End the Turn. Then if you play Arbiter, it would stop me from playing Chancellor, so I have to Dualcast in response. My 1/1 and 2/2 stare at your 2/3. DD 2-2

I missed that you are a 2 counter deck that can’t actually cast 2 counters across separate turns.

Reeplcheep

01-29-2021, 08:53 AM

Asthereal's score for round FoW clone:

1. Asthereal (TO): Guile, Spelljack, Draining Whelk, Chromium, the Mutable
8. Reeplcheep: Savage Summoning, Dragonlord Dromoka, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV , Mindbreak Trap
So your deck can make an uncounterable instant speed 3/4 Augustin IV. If you try to do that, I'll respond by making Chromium and race you. So you have to go for Dromoka and try to use Trap. You cast Dromoka, I'll cast Chromium. If you Trap now, I'll Whelk it and win the race. So you let Chromium resolve. We now have a 5/7 flying lifelink against a 7/7 flying with some fancy yet irrelevant abilities. If I now do another thing, you'll Trap it, and if you do another thing, I'll Whelk it, so that's a standoff. Let's look at the attacks. You can't attack fist, obviously. If I attack, you take it and attack back, but the lifelink makes you win that race easily. So I also can't attack and we have two staredowns. I'm guessing this will be 2-2.

Ok makes sense.

Asthereal

01-29-2021, 09:38 AM

Reeplcheep

01-29-2021, 09:45 AM

alphastryk

01-29-2021, 09:50 AM

+1 (if I wasn't already counted)

FTW

01-29-2021, 10:40 AM

So I have to change my creatureless Ensnaring Bridge deck?

Serguei's deck would have beaten Silkster, jhhdk's wouldn't.
Factories do not need to be fast, tabernacle is :)

How do either of them stop the line of Take Possession on Dark Depths (or Stage, whichever is played first) to pay the upkeep on Chancellor?

So if I cast Chromium, I lose it to Snatch. But you have a 1/1 gobbo.
So what I'll do is this: at the end of your first turn, I discard Guile to make Whelk as a sorry 1/1. You let that resolve. I now draw Guile and pass. I now have Guile, Spelljack and Chromium.
If you now cast the Chancellor to try and win, I can discard Guile to Spelljack it. You can Gearhulk into Snatch to try and snatch it, but you'll have to have it counter the Aethersnatch, which in turn exiles Aethersnatch, netting you an exiled free Aethersnatch to stop my final play.
So I can't counter it. But then, I have only one play out of my 3 cards, so you can just steal that one play and win with the Chancellor.

I think I lose this 0-6, no?

You cast EOT Whelk discarding Guile, making a 1/1. Then you draw Guile and stare.

If dte casts Chancellor pitching Counterflux, you Spelljack it discarding Guile. If he plays Gearhulk pitching Snatch, then Snatches the Spelljack, he can change the target on Spelljack to itself (no other legal targets on the stack - Aethersnatch has resolved). But then when Spelljack resolves it will have no legal targets and fizzle, not giving dte a free card. This is where Aethersnatch is worse than Spelljack. He can't come out of this exchange stealing a counter, whereas Spelljack on Spelljack can steal the counter for later. dte will get a 5/5 Chancellor and 5/6 Gearhulk, but you just redraw Guile and flash in 7/7 Chromium to block and kill them.

You can't race so you stare. Draw 2-2?

Edit: Just saw you looked at countering the Whelk. Didn't consider that.

I thought you can draw by casting whelk, discarding guile.

I either let it resolve, resulting in a draw, or I counter it with counterflux, discarding chancellor.
If I take the second option, then you draw guile.
T2 you can: cast chromium or guile, that would be met by hulk>snatch. OK, then I would win this.

So you cannot start by whelk.

He plays Whelk EOT. You counter with Counterflux, discarding Chancellor.

He can't Spelljack the Counterflux, but he could Spelljack his own Whelk in response (discarding Chromium is tech vs Aethersnatch). If you cast Gearhulk pitching Aethersnatch to steal the Spelljack, you could make Spelljack target itself to fizzle. Then Whelk gets countered and you have a 5/6 Gearhulk. You win.

So he lets Counterflux resolve, losing Whelk. Then he draws Guile but only has 3 cards in hand, so cannot Spelljack your Gearhulk/Snatch back if he tries to cast Chromium. You win.

Ok, so you win if he tries to cast Whelk, and if he doesn't the Goblin kills him.
WW 6-0

Asthereal

01-29-2021, 12:05 PM

So I have to change my creatureless Ensnaring Bridge deck?
You would have to change your Ensnaring Bridge deck, yes. Are you up for that? :wink:

Also, thanks for checking my match against dte. I am not good enough at this game to find every line.

Wrath of Pie

01-29-2021, 12:46 PM

So I have to change my creatureless Ensnaring Bridge deck?

If I can handle doing so, you surely can.

FTW

01-29-2021, 02:28 PM

You would have to change your Ensnaring Bridge deck, yes. Are you up for that? :wink:

Yeah, I thought it was dumb that my top 3 ideas for this round were all creatureless control decks. It takes away from the spirit of the deviant round. I support the choice.

Tylert

01-29-2021, 02:58 PM

Yeah, I thought it was dumb that my top 3 ideas for this round were all creatureless control decks. It takes away from the spirit of the deviant round. I support the choice.

What was your win condition with ensnaring bridge? Non combat damage to players was prevented...

Wrath of Pie

01-29-2021, 03:59 PM

What was your win condition with ensnaring bridge? Non combat damage to players was prevented...
Probably Oko. (At least that was my plan.)

alphastryk

01-29-2021, 04:28 PM

I had Ensnaring Bridge, Oko, Ancient Tomb, Interplanar Beacon which seemed pretty solid. Anything that produces creature tokens and a way to remove your own bridge eventually does it.

jhhdk

01-29-2021, 04:47 PM

-1 I'd prefer keeping original format.

FTW

01-29-2021, 05:06 PM

I had Ensnaring Bridge, Oko, Ancient Tomb, Interplanar Beacon which seemed pretty solid. Anything that produces creature tokens and a way to remove your own bridge eventually does it.

Yeah. Also Ancient Tomb is OP with noncombat damage to players prevented XD

Another option is Helix Pinnacle, hilariously tapping your Tomb for 100 prevented damage to add the counters. But this loses the mirror to Oko removing your Bridge.

Asthereal

01-30-2021, 06:37 AM

So we now have three people in favour of changing next round (Berserker) to "you can only play creature and land cards".
Anyone else in favour? Anyone opposed?

I'll make the switch if there's an additional +2 in favour (so 3 in favour and 1 opposed also works). Don't forget to vote.
Due to the minus one from jhhdk, we need at least one more in favour of this idea. I'll give you guys some more time.

Also, I don't have results yet from silk, maxx! and H. I did some quick napkin math and used the results their opponents posted to create preliminary standings, but I'm not sure about all the results, so please still check your matches.

Tylert

01-30-2021, 09:15 AM

Due to the minus one from jhhdk, we need at least one more in favour of this idea. I'll give you guys some more time.

Also, I don't have results yet from silk, maxx! and H. I did some quick napkin math and used the results their opponents posted to create preliminary standings, but I'm not sure about all the results, so please still check your matches.

I'm sorry Jhhdk, but I want it to change to only creatures and lands. THe original version of this round doesn't apply enough restriction and we're playing normal legacy.

Wrath of Pie

01-30-2021, 09:45 AM

I'm sorry Jhhdk, but I want it to change to only creatures and lands. THe original version of this round doesn't apply enough restriction and we're playing normal legacy.
And by normal Legacy, we mean Oko mirrors galore.

jhhdk

01-30-2021, 09:47 AM

No worries. More restrictive choices probably good for me.

FTW

01-30-2021, 10:49 AM

+1 to creatures and lands.

There's at least one aggro deck that goes 4-1 against Oko-Bridge, so Bridge isn't even that busted. I was trying to tech around a way to deploy Bridge more quickly in case maxx! or Goblinsmashmaster played it, but with Scalding Tongs banned it's hard to also get the mana to deploy a win condition fast enough. Pinnacle improves the match to 3-3 but loses to Oko.

Hint: it uses a card literally in the name of the round

Wrath of Pie

01-30-2021, 11:34 AM

Elixir loops with Assassin's Trophy should beat Oko, but that strategy loses hard to the t1 Iona strategy that I was anticipating to be popular. (As it turns out, I would have been crushed in the mirror because I would have played Karakas.)

dte

01-30-2021, 12:58 PM

After having been wrong vs Asthereal and Serguei, I am having a second look at other MUs:

11. H: Guile, Guile, Nexus of Fate, Last Word
0-6. That one is pretty strong against my approach.

Vs H, I cast chancellor T1. If countered, I will win as I will snatch any guile played. If no answer, I have three gobs that attack (H17). H play guile, discarding guile. I cannot counter it.
No one can attack --> draw.
2-2 instead of 0-6?
Edit: nope, H can still cast nexus discarding guile. 0-6.

12. maxx!: Slaughter Games, Counterflux, Surrak Dragonclaw, Sandstorm Eidolon
1-4. Eidolon is a great idea! OTP I can steal a draw by playing chancellor, discarding counterflux. You cannot counter it, or I gearhulk-snatch your counterflux and draw (4 gobs, chancellor and hulk on the battlefield), and I then have 8 power, so a 3 turns clock, and you can only have a 6/6. When you are OTP, you can start by slaughter game, discarding eidolon, and take out snatch. Then you can play Surrak safely.

Vs Maxx!, if you play slaugther games discarding eidolon, I can attempt to Hulk-snatch slaugther game, and to counterflux it, you would have to discard surrak and lose with eidolon in hand. if you answer with playing Surrak instead, discarding counterflux, I would then make you remove your eidolon, cast chancellor next turn and get 4 gobs + 2 5/5, enough to win OTP and to draw OTD with you at 1 life.
If you start with Surrak, discarding eidolon, I can just counterflux it and win from there.
4-1 instead of 1-4?

Asthereal

01-31-2021, 05:35 AM

Okay, time to decide. As of right now, we have reached the +2 we needed (in the form of +3 and -1).
So I'll be changing next round to "Your deck can only contain creatures and lands".

So you guys can start designing your deck with that in mind.
Don't send me your deck yet though. I have no idea what I want to play myself just yet, so the round isn't opened yet. :tongue:

FTW

01-31-2021, 07:30 AM

Vs Maxx!, if you play slaugther games discarding eidolon, I can attempt to Hulk-snatch slaugther game, and to counterflux it, you would have to discard surrak and lose with eidolon in hand. if you answer with playing Surrak instead, discarding counterflux, I would then make you remove your eidolon, cast chancellor next turn and get 4 gobs + 2 5/5, enough to win OTP and to draw OTD with you at 1 life.
If you start with Surrak, discarding eidolon, I can just counterflux it and win from there.
4-1 instead of 1-4?

What if he doesn't even bother casting Slaughter Games? You already have a threat on the board and can play a 2nd at instant speed, so Slaughter Games is bad against you, just like it's bad against me.

Surrak is uncounterable so you cannot Counterflux it. So are all his spells. He's better off not casting Slaughter Games so he can cast his own Counterflux to stop Gearhulk/Aethersnatch, which is your only way to threaten Surrak.

dte: Attack with 1/1 goblin
Maxx: Surrak, discarding Eidolon
dte: Gearhulk, discarding Aethersnatch, attempting to Snatch it (in response to Eidolon trigger)
Maxx: Counterflux @ Gearhulk, discarding Slaughter Games, returning Eidolon to hand
dte: Can't Counterflux either the Counterflux or Surrak.
Maxx: Surrak blocks and kills goblin token

Then you can play Chancellor, but you've lost the original 1/1 Goblin, so you just have a 5/5 and 1 gob to stare.

DD 2-2?

Asthereal

01-31-2021, 02:37 PM

There's still discussion going on about last round, which ended up less interesting but more complicated than expected.
Also, some haven't posted their results yet. So I'll hold off on preliminary standings for a while longer.
BUT... Of course the show must go on, so let's fire up round 3 submissions!

ROUND 3 OF SEASON 9: DEVIANT LEGACY - PART 2 has started.

This round we play Berserker: Creatures can't block, creatures attack each turn if able, combat damage cannot be prevented, prevent all non-combat damage to players. Your deck may only contain creature and land cards.
No additional bannings. Do please note the change in wording, which was discussed during teh last few days. We now only play creatures and lands.

I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 3, so you can start sending me your decks.

DEADLINE: Wednesday the 3rd of February at 11:00AM Central European Time.
(That's my time zone. Pacific Time it'll probably be something like Tuesday night a bit past midnight, so keep that in mind.)

PLEASE NOTE:
The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
Please send your deck as follows: Swamp, Swamp, Dauthi Slayer, Black Knight.
So with card tags around each card, and not above eachother, and with your Username and 4CB S09R03 in the topic.
Don't forget to keep an eye on the banned list. You'll find it in the second post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1064264&viewfull=1#post1064264) of the thread, on in our Google Spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YwJGkRwet2eSSm2aVe8eq1OcIW1MFzrgrpcBk71woXA/edit?usp=sharing).

After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

Also, if you've been lurking on this thread and looking to join, you can step in anytime, any round. That's no problem at all. Just send me your deck before the deadline, and I'll add you to the competition. :smile:

Happy deck designing everybody! :cool:

dte

01-31-2021, 03:56 PM

What if he doesn't even bother casting Slaughter Games? You already have a threat on the board and can play a 2nd at instant speed, so Slaughter Games is bad against you, just like it's bad against me.

Surrak is uncounterable so you cannot Counterflux it. So are all his spells. He's better off not casting Slaughter Games so he can cast his own Counterflux to stop Gearhulk/Aethersnatch, which is your only way to threaten Surrak.

dte: Attack with 1/1 goblin
Maxx: Surrak, discarding Eidolon
dte: Gearhulk, discarding Aethersnatch, attempting to Snatch it (in response to Eidolon trigger)
Maxx: Counterflux @ Gearhulk, discarding Slaughter Games, returning Eidolon to hand
dte: Can't Counterflux either the Counterflux or Surrak.
Maxx: Surrak blocks and kills goblin token

Then you can play Chancellor, but you've lost the original 1/1 Goblin, so you just have a 5/5 and 1 gob to stare.

DD 2-2?

You're right. This second round was (still is?) tough to figure out.

FTW

01-31-2021, 04:11 PM

This round is just prone to a lot of draws. Whoever tries to do the first thing loses advantage on the stack, and if creatures resolve a lot of the ones we picked are about the same size (5/5-6/6).

dte

01-31-2021, 04:39 PM

This round is just prone to a lot of draws. Whoever tries to do the first thing loses advantage on the stack, and if creatures resolve a lot of the ones we picked are about the same size (5/5-6/6).

Did not feel good to bring a 5/5 and a 5/6 in a world of 6/6 with evasion.
But chancellor was stellar for its ability.

silkster

02-01-2021, 04:31 AM

Me: 13. silkster: Counterflux, Aethersnatch, Take Possession, Chancellor of the Forge

1. Asthereal (TO): Guile, Spelljack, Draining Whelk, Chromium, the Mutable WW, 6 points
2. dte: Chancellor of the forge, Counterflux, Torrential gearhulk, Aethersnatch DD, 2 points
3. jhhdk: Aluren, Casualties of War, Cavern Harpy, Parasitic Strix WW, 6 points
4. Wrath of Pie: Time Stop, Spelljack, Guile, Guile WW, 6 points
5. alphastryk: Mindbreak Trap, Commandeer, Guile, Guile WW, 6 points
6. Tylert: Aethersnatch, Aethersnatch, Counterflux, The Ur-Dragon WW, 6 points
7. Serguei: Guile, Guile, Wheel and Deal, Mindbreak Trap LL, 0 points
8. Reeplcheep: Savage Summoning, Dragonlord Dromoka, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV , Mindbreak Trap WW, 6 points
9. GoblinSmashmaster: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Miraculous Recovery, Spelljack, Mindbreak Trap WW, 6 points
10. FTW: Chancellor of the Forge, Dualcaster Mage, Discontinuity, Spelljack DD, 2 points
11. H: Guile, Guile, Nexus of Fate, Last Word
If you make one Guile, I take Possession. If you make two Guiles, I Aethersnatch and am very far ahead in the race with Counterflux to stop your only casting of Nexus of Fate. WW, 6 points
12. maxx!: Slaughter Games, Counterflux, Surrak Dragonclaw, Sandstorm Eidolon
So confusing! If maxx! leads on Surrak, I can Aethersnatch, it gets countered, then I Chancellor for a draw. If I let Surrak go, Slaughter Games will hit Take Possession, and Chancellor still makes for a draw. If maxx! plays Slaughter Games first, I Aethersnatch, which can be countered (this loses, so not this) or responded to with Surrak, which also draws. Looks like draws all day long, but someone put this in as WW for me and I hope they're right! DD, 2 points

16W, 6D, 2L = 54 points, maybe, pending maxx! game.

Indeed. First thing I can see is that at least FTW and Silkster have registered basically the same deck as me, I guess it cannot be too wrong. Second is that a lot of MU will not be that easy to solve, even if there shouldn't be too much combat math.

I felt this round was really hard. Specifically, I felt that I was always on the verge of something great, and frequently thought that I had found it, but then suddenly realized either I lose to Time Stop or one of my cards was missing a key colour. I completely missed Guile and the incarnations, as well as the eidolons. I even did a cursory search for that sort of ability, but I couldn't find it except on Worldspine Wurm (which I've played in modern) who is not a good colour here. I was really into the pauper/peasant rounds, and I always at least had a running list to go on, even if I changed things up in the end (like playing Lumberjack + Acidic Slime after seeing how well Reanimate + Fault Grinder did). Here, I feel out of my element, like I'm always going to be missing well-known stuff.

I actually submitted a reanimate Grand Arbiter plan first, using Bruna, the Fading Light to get around counters, but Time Stop is really really annoying. I wondered about Miraculous Recovery just being worse than it, until I realized that Miraculous Recovery is an instant. I like it the attempt, but rules.

My analysis led to double-counterspell being a virtual requirement. I did consider Tabernacle, but the issue is that only leaves you with three cards, and the noncreature win conditions were a bit lacking.
What if you just leaned into this really hard? Like, Tabernacle + 3x Mishra's Factories? Man, I even played Tabernacle in the Helm of Awakening round 3 seasons ago! I also see now that dte was thinking about this, which is not surprising. Oh, or Cavern and an unblockable creature (to not have draws against flash creatures).

This round we play Berserker: Creatures can't block, creatures attack each turn if able, combat damage cannot be prevented, prevent all non-combat damage to players. Your deck may only contain creature and land cards.
No additional bannings. Do please note the change in wording, which was discussed during the last few days. We now only play creatures and lands.

Real late, but throwing in my posthumous +1. This is also really good, because I didn't know it but I was secretly planning to go 0-6 against every Oko deck and 2-2 at best against every other Bridge deck. There's that well-known stuff I was talking about. This is why I want rounds to be really ridiculous, so that I can use the obscure, stupid stuff.

It occurs to me now that round Supersize might need similar treatment to avoid Oko + Bridge. And maybe we wait to see what wins the Berserker round and then ban that.

Tylert

02-01-2021, 04:40 AM

silkster

02-01-2021, 04:50 AM

When you say this round, you mean round 3 or 2?

That's about round 2, where every can spend their 4 cards to play 2 things or to counter 2 things.

Asthereal

02-01-2021, 07:04 AM

Me: 13. silkster: Counterflux, Aethersnatch, Take Possession, Chancellor of the Forge

12. maxx!: Slaughter Games, Counterflux, Surrak Dragonclaw, Sandstorm Eidolon
So confusing! If maxx! leads on Surrak, I can Aethersnatch, it gets countered, then I Chancellor for a draw. If I let Surrak go, Slaughter Games will hit Take Possession, and Chancellor still makes for a draw. If maxx! plays Slaughter Games first, I Aethersnatch, which can be countered (this loses, so not this) or responded to with Surrak, which also draws. Looks like draws all day long, but someone put this in as WW for me and I hope they're right! DD, 2 points
That someone was me, and it was pure napkin math. A quick dig in my brain tells me I overlooked at least two things you mention here. You're probably right about the draws.

Asthereal

02-01-2021, 08:06 AM

With silk's results posted, I feel like we're close enough to start posting preliminary standings for round 2:
1. FTW: 56 - 4,7
2. Serguei: 54 - 4,5
2. silkster: 54 - 4,5
4. dte: 50 - 4,2
5. Asthereal (TO): 40 - 3,3
6. Tylert: 32 - 2,7
7. Wrath of Pie: 28 - 2,3
8. Reeplcheep: 27 - 2,3
8. maxx!: 27 - 2,3
10. alphastryk: 23 - 1,9
11. GoblinSmashmaster: 16 - 1,3
12. H: 16 - 1,3
13. jhhdk: 0 - 0

Which would lead to these standings in the season:
1. dte: 9,7
2. FTW: 9,3
3. Serguei: 6,8
4. maxx!: 6,7
5. Tylert: 6,4
6. Wrath of Pie: 5
7. silkster: 4,5
8. GoblinSmashmaster: 4,4
9. Asthereal (TO): 3,8
10. alphastryk: 3,7
11. H: 3,5
12. Reeplcheep: 3,4
13. jhhdk: 2,9

Wrath of Pie

02-01-2021, 08:54 AM

What if you just leaned into this really hard? Like, Tabernacle + 3x Mishra's Factories? Man, I even played Tabernacle in the Helm of Awakening round 3 seasons ago! I also see now that dte was thinking about this, which is not surprising. Oh, or Cavern and an unblockable creature (to not have draws against flash creatures).

Take Possession turns out to be a problem for the Tabernacle strategy, and triple Factory does not solve that. Don't think there is an actual solution anyways other than to just accept the draw result.

Cavern of Souls doesn't work with the Dream Halls effect, unfortunately. (Well, unless your opponent resolves Grand Arbiter Augustin IV.)

It occurs to me now that round Supersize might need similar treatment to avoid Oko + Bridge. And maybe we wait to see what wins the Berserker round and then ban that.

Honestly, Oko should probably just be on the regular Legacy banlist.

dte

02-01-2021, 10:29 AM

Take Possession turns out to be a problem for the Tabernacle strategy, and triple Factory does not solve that. Don't think there is an actual solution anyways other than to just accept the draw result.

Take possession cannot interact with marit lage though.

silkster

02-01-2021, 11:49 AM

Cavern of Souls doesn't work with the Dream Halls effect, unfortunately. (Well, unless your opponent resolves Grand Arbiter Augustin IV.)
I just meant you could play Tabernacle + Cavern + Slither Blade. That would have done quite well this round.

Honestly, Oko should probably just be on the regular Legacy banlist.
I'm on board with this.

Reeplcheep

02-01-2021, 12:16 PM

I just meant you could play Tabernacle + Cavern + Slither Blade. That would have done quite well this round.

I'm on board with this.

Doesn’t that just draw every deck with mind break trap, and lose to Jdh?

On board with the oko ban.

Wrath of Pie

02-01-2021, 12:38 PM

I just meant you could play Tabernacle + Cavern + Slither Blade. That would have done quite well this round.

The threat you are looking for is probably Quagnoth. (I am aware that Slither Blade can be cast with Cavern, but Time Stop and Mindbreak Trap are things that are not worth being weak to.)

Using Cavern for Tabernacle mana is an idea, but something like Sheltered Valley would likely be better.

FTW

02-01-2021, 02:05 PM

The threat you are looking for is probably Quagnoth. (I am aware that Slither Blade can be cast with Cavern, but Time Stop and Mindbreak Trap are things that are not worth being weak to.)

Using Cavern for Tabernacle mana is an idea, but something like Sheltered Valley would likely be better.

Good point.

This would have 2-2'd Aluren, lost to Wheel and Deal + double Guile, and 6-0'd everything else.
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Sheltered Valley, Quagnoth, Voidslime

So hard to predict the meta though. Tabernacle seemed weak to T1 combo. I brewed some T1 infinite storm decks and T0 wheel decks and thought anything that couldn't beat those would be in trouble. Tabernacle would have been very strong in this counter-heavy meta though.

Take Possession does stop Marit Lage because you have to play Dark Depths and Stage on separate turns, and you can just steal one of the two lands. In the deck with Urborg and Tabernacle, you could then tap the land for mana to pay the upkeep on your creature (Chancellor, Guile).

dte

02-01-2021, 02:40 PM

Good point.

This would have 2-2'd Aluren, lost to Wheel and Deal + double Guile, and 6-0'd everything else.
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Sheltered Valley, Quagnoth, Voidslime

So hard to predict the meta though. Tabernacle seemed weak to T1 combo. I brewed some T1 infinite storm decks and T0 wheel decks and thought anything that couldn't beat those would be in trouble. Tabernacle would have been very strong in this counter-heavy meta though.

Take Possession does stop Marit Lage because you have to play Dark Depths and Stage on separate turns, and you can just steal one of the two lands. In the deck with Urborg and Tabernacle, you could then tap the land for mana to pay the upkeep on your creature (Chancellor, Guile).

Your deck would have also 2-2 against Asthereal)(choice), Maxx (surrak) and me (hulk).

Lage does not care about take possession: play taby, dark depth and urbog, and start removing counters. If silk plays possession on any land, play stage FTW. If not, remove the last counter at the end of his turn. Lose to aluren and wheel, and 6-0 the rest.

silkster

02-01-2021, 03:56 PM

The threat you are looking for is probably Quagnoth. (I am aware that Slither Blade can be cast with Cavern, but Time Stop and Mindbreak Trap are things that are not worth being weak to.)

Using Cavern for Tabernacle mana is an idea, but something like Sheltered Valley would likely be better.

I was trying to find a way to not draw against Chromium or Surrak being flashed in as a blocker. Just playing a bunch of Mishra's Factories is better. I was just trying to find some low-hanging fruit that would have done very well overall. I wasn't trying to find the optimal deck for this week. To that end, I'm glad my inclusion of Take Possession has thrown a wrench into the quest for the perfect deck for this round and generated much discussion!

maxx!

02-02-2021, 09:30 PM

Sorry for being away. I had a hellish week last week. At a glance my results look right. I’ll try to send something in for round 3 tonight, and then work out my results for rounds 2 and 3 in the next few days.

(+1 to the rule change for this round)

Serguei

02-03-2021, 01:25 AM

When is the deadline for the round 3 ?

dte

02-03-2021, 01:56 AM

When is the deadline for the round 3 ?

11AM CEST today, so in a bit less than 3h.

FTW

02-03-2021, 03:47 AM

Your deck would have also 2-2 against Asthereal)(choice), Maxx (surrak) and me (hulk).

Lage does not care about take possession: play taby, dark depth and urbog, and start removing counters. If silk plays possession on any land, play stage FTW. If not, remove the last counter at the end of his turn. Lose to aluren and wheel, and 6-0 the rest.

Lage stll seems like a bad choice for that meta.

0-6 to Aluren and Wheel from turn 1s
Then 0-6 to the rest from running Dark Depths on the banlist

dte

02-03-2021, 03:56 AM

Then 0-6 to the rest from running Dark Depths on the banlist

Oops!
Good catch, but it just ruins the deck I was planning to submit for R3.
I need to be more careful with the banlist :(

FTW

02-03-2021, 04:02 AM

Oops!
Good catch, but it just ruins the deck I was planning to submit for R3.
I need to be more careful with the banlist :(

It ruins mine too. That's how I noticed, and also why I decided to post that before the deadline.

dte

02-03-2021, 04:05 AM

It ruins mine too. That's how I noticed, and also why I decided to post that before the deadline.

Thank you very much for doing so.
I was unhappy with my deck and thought I would just post it at the last minute if nothing better popped up into my head.
Now it seems I have to go with one I am even less happy with :/

jhhdk

02-03-2021, 04:27 AM

It ruins mine too. That's how I noticed, and also why I decided to post that before the deadline.

It ruined mine three!?
My pre-banlist pre-creature/land only list was Dark Depths, Urborg, Tomb of impossible to spell, Thespian's Stage, Shrouded Lore

jhhdk

02-03-2021, 05:32 AM

11am cest today, so in a bit less than 3h.
11:47am cest /tap /tap in a no stress kind of way.

silkster

02-03-2021, 06:01 AM

Man, I see at least 3 very different styles of deck to choose from and many ways to build in each style. I wonder if Berserker could be the next banathon season. But also, I have no idea how to decide here.

Wrath of Pie

02-03-2021, 06:13 AM

Lage stll seems like a bad choice for that meta.

0-6 to Aluren and Wheel from turn 1s
Then 0-6 to the rest from running Dark Depths on the banlist

No one ever remembers Dark Depths being banned!

Asthereal

02-03-2021, 06:15 AM

Deadline has passed, and I have everybody but Reeplcheep. I'll give you a bit more time while I do work stuff. :smile:

Tylert

02-03-2021, 06:25 AM

Asthereal

02-03-2021, 08:11 AM

And we're complete.

DECKS FOR ROUND 3 OF SEASON 9: Deviant Legacy - Part 2

This round we play Berserker: Creatures can't block, creatures attack each turn if able, combat damage cannot be prevented, prevent all non-combat damage to players. Your deck may only contain creature and land cards. No additional bannings.

The entries:
1. Asthereal (TO): Sandstone Needle, City of Traitors, Boldwyr Heavyweights, Goblin Settler
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Mountain, Goblin Lackey, Morophon, the Boundless, Karona, False God
3. jhhdk: Taiga, Orcish Lumberjack, Ramunap Excavator, Titania, Protector of Argoth
4. Wrath of Pie: Hickory Woodlot, Ruins of Trokair, Mayor of Avabruck, Windborn Muse
5. alphastryk: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Grasping Dunes, Dwarven Hold, Ogre Arsonist
6. H: Inkmoth Nexus, Cathedral of War, Quicksand, Maze of Ith
7. maxx!: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Hunted Horror, Fourth Bridge Prowler
8. FTW: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Maze of Ith, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Murderous Rider
9. dte: city of traitors, simian spirit guide, simian spirit guide, barbed shocker
10. Tylert: City of traitors, Simian spirit guide, Eldrazi Mimic, Phyrexian dreadnought
11. Serguei: City of Traitors, Simian spirit guide, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Eldrazi Mimic
12. silkster: Swamp, Ruthless Sniper, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Bazaar of Baghdad
13. Reeplcheep: City of Traitors, Elvish Spirit Guide, Chancellor of the Tangle, Lodestone Golem

Please post your scores and cross-check with the opponents.
You can also enter your scores in the Google Spreadsheet for the seasonwhich you can find here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YwJGkRwet2eSSm2aVe8eq1OcIW1MFzrgrpcBk71woXA/edit?usp=sharing

Tylert

02-03-2021, 09:01 AM

Dammit, my deck is illegal. Phyrexian dreadnaught is not a card :(

1. Asthereal (TO): Sandstone Needle, City of Traitors, Boldwyr Heavyweights, Goblin Settler
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Mountain, Goblin Lackey, Morophon, the Boundless, Karona, False God
3. jhhdk: Taiga, Orcish Lumberjack, Ramunap Excavator, Titania, Protector of Argoth
4. Wrath of Pie: Hickory Woodlot, Ruins of Trokair, Mayor of Avabruck, Windborn Muse
5. alphastryk: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Grasping Dunes, Dwarven Hold, Ogre Arsonist
6. H: Inkmoth Nexus, Cathedral of War, Quicksand, Maze of Ith
7. maxx!: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Hunted Horror, Fourth Bridge Prowler
8. FTW: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Maze of Ith, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Murderous Rider
9. dte: city of traitors, simian spirit guide, simian spirit guide, barbed shocker
10. Tylert: City of traitors, Simian spirit guide, Eldrazi Mimic, Phyrexian dreadnaught
11. Serguei: City of Traitors, Simian spirit guide, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Eldrazi Mimic
12. silkster: Swamp, Ruthless Sniper, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Bazaar of Baghdad
13. Reeplcheep: City of Traitors, Elvish Spirit Guide, Chancellor of the Tangle, Lodestone Golem

Every game I will play mimic T1, then dreadnought T1 with guide and stack the triggers so I have to sac mimic after getinng it to 12/12.Then I'll proceed to kill my opponent in 2 turns (Turn 3).
1. Asthereal: Can you kill me turn 3 or interact with our creatures? the answer is no. 6-0 --> 6
2. Goblinsmashmaster: Can you Kill me turn 3 or interact with our creatures? On the draw, you're exactly lethal on turn 3. 3-3 --> 9
3. jhhdk: Can you Kill me turn 3 or interact with our creatures? I guess no. 6-0 --> 15
4. Wrath of Pie: Can you Kill me turn 3 or interact with our creatures? No I can pay for the muse. 6-0 --> 21
5. Alphastryk: Can you Kill me turn 3 or interact with our creatures? I can pay for Tabernacle!! 6-0 --> 27
6. H: Can you Kill me turn 3 or interact with our creatures? Nope. And maze of Ith doesn't work. 6-0 --> 33.
7. maxx!: Can you Kill me turn 3 or interact with our creatures? Nope. I let the centaurs die and smash with dreadnought 6-0 --> 39.
8. FTW!: Can you Kill me turn 3 or interact with our creatures? Yes OTD I can only kill you turn 3 and you can kill my threat. 3-3 --> 42.
9. Dte: Can you Kill me turn 3 or interact with our creatures? Yes OTD, You're too fast for me. 3-3 --> 45.
10. Tylert: Me.
11. Serguei: mirror. 3-3 --> 48
12. silkster: Can you Kill me turn 3 or interact with our creatures? yes you can but in a meaningless way. 6-0 --> 54.
13. Reeplcheep: Can you Kill me turn 3 or interact with our creatures? yes, but it only means I can cast dreadnought on turn 2 and kill T4 instead of T3. You can't kill before T5 so I still win. 6-0 --> 60

Total 60

Whoa. I thought more people would play murderous rider.
Here are the decks that I considered:
City of traitors, simian spirit guide, magus of the moon, goblin rabblemaster: I thought more people would play magus. with rabblemaster it eithers completely shut down the opponent's strategy or kills T4. Still Mimic + dreadnought was able to overcome it.
Peat Bog, Mishra's factory, Quicksand, murderous rider. 2 threats, a way to kill a creature turn 2 and another to kill a small creature T1. This was countering mimic + dreadnought but was loosing to lackey or green decks.
Forest, quicksand, old-growth dryad, tempting wurm. This was a counter to my quicksand decks.
Swamp, putrid imp, vengevine, memnite. Fast against my green decks, but dies to murderous rider.

You guys all tried to go with some sort of cheese playing tabernacle in a creature meta or lodestone golem or windborn muse. That was a fun round.

Asthereal

02-03-2021, 09:04 AM

Dammit, my deck is illegal. Phyrexian dreadnaught is not a card :(
I'll edit. I had managed to send myself a City of Traiters. :eek:

Wrath of Pie

02-03-2021, 09:07 AM

Dammit, my deck is illegal. Phyrexian dreadnaught is not a card :(
I came close to submitting Reef Shaman without realizing it doesn't work at all in this ruleset. You, on the other hand, just can say you submitted the British version.

dte

02-03-2021, 09:19 AM

9. dte: city of traitors, simian spirit guide, simian spirit guide, barbed shocker

After thinking that the deck I wanted to play will not be very good thanks to FTW monitoring the banlist better than me, I took a T1 deck I didn't want to play too much because I was afraid of 3-3ing everyone. Note: I win if you just put 2 power T1 thanks to haste.

1. Asthereal (TO): Sandstone Needle, City of Traitors, Boldwyr Heavyweights, Goblin Settler
6-0. T1> T2
6

2. GoblinSmashmaster: Mountain, Goblin Lackey, Morophon, the Boundless, Karona, False God
6-0. T1> T2
12

3. jhhdk: Taiga, Orcish Lumberjack, Ramunap Excavator, Titania, Protector of Argoth
6-0. T1> T2
18

4. Wrath of Pie: Hickory Woodlot, Ruins of Trokair, Mayor of Avabruck, Windborn Muse
6-0. T1> T2
24

5. alphastryk: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Grasping Dunes, Dwarven Hold, Ogre Arsonist
6-0. T1> T2
30

6. H: Inkmoth Nexus, Cathedral of War, Quicksand, Maze of Ith
3-3. Maze beats me OTD. Maze do not prevent damage, but the ants are drown in the sand.
33

7. maxx!: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Hunted Horror, Fourth Bridge Prowler
6-0. T1> T2
39

8. FTW: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Maze of Ith, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Murderous Rider
3-3. Maze beats me OTD.
42
6-0, Maze do not prevent damage. I would have done the exact same mistake.
45

10. Tylert: City of traitors, Simian spirit guide, Eldrazi Mimic, Phyrexian dreadnought
3-3. T1=T1
48

11. Serguei: City of Traitors, Simian spirit guide, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Eldrazi Mimic
3-3. T1=T1
51

12. silkster: Swamp, Ruthless Sniper, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Bazaar of Baghdad
3-3. OTP you'll draw kozilek again and again (your trigger to shuffle). Ruthless sniper kills my dude [/strike] OTD[/strike]. well planned ;)
51

13. Reeplcheep: City of Traitors, Elvish Spirit Guide, Chancellor of the Tangle, Lodestone Golem
3-3. T1=T1. I hesitated a bit with a similar one, but 2 SSG instead of ESG/chancellor. I did not took it because of lands.deck and robots.deck.
54.

At least the maths were pretty easy :)

I should have sticked to my other deck of magus, Stromkirk Noble, city, SSG would have done much better against the 2 maze deck and silkster's one, but lose 0-6 against gob's gobs, so that's only a 3 points difference exactly the same result. I just thought there would be much less land decks with no dark depths. Note that my reason to want this version over barbed shoker was that I was expecting a few artifact decks (e.g. city/tomb, steel overseer, 2 chronomaton), and there was none.

Wrath of Pie

02-03-2021, 09:23 AM

6. H: Inkmoth Nexus, Cathedral of War, Quicksand, Maze of Ith
3-3. Maze beats me OTD.
33

8. FTW: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Maze of Ith, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Murderous Rider
3-3. Maze beats me OTD.
42

How does Maze beat you?

Tylert

02-03-2021, 09:26 AM

How does Maze beat you?

I agree. Maze doesn't do what it's supposed to do as damage can't be prevented.

Asthereal

02-03-2021, 09:29 AM

I agree. Maze doesn't do what it's supposed to do as damage can't be prevented.
LOOOOOOOLLL totally forgot about that!
It's in the rules. So Maze does nothing but untap the guy...

Wrath of Pie

02-03-2021, 09:31 AM

LOOOOOOOLLL totally forgot about that!
It's in the rules. So Maze does nothing but untap the guy...
Still does more than Reef Shaman!

dte

02-03-2021, 09:32 AM

How does Maze beat you?

I agree. Maze doesn't do what it's supposed to do as damage can't be prevented.

LOOOOOOOLLL totally forgot about that!
It's in the rules. So Maze does nothing but untap the guy...

Completely missed that OO!
But even FTW did, so no shame in the mistake ;)

I'll edit my post.

02-03-2021, 09:37 AM

I agree. Maze doesn't do what it's supposed to do as damage can't be prevented.

:laugh:

I'm dumb. I think, despite that, I might still win a match or two, haha.

Tylert

02-03-2021, 09:40 AM

:laugh:

I'm dumb. I think, despite that, I might still win a match or two, haha.

I had Maze of Ith in my decks for some time... then realized that the rule of the round was not only "You can play creatures and lands only".

dte

02-03-2021, 09:46 AM

Every game I will play mimic T1, then dreadnought T1 with guide and stack the triggers so I have to sac mimic after getinng it to 12/12.Then I'll proceed to kill my opponent in 2 turns (Turn 3).
---
13. Reeplcheep: Can you Kill me turn 3 or interact with our creatures? Nope. 6-0 --> 65

Mimic is not an artefact, that should be 3-3.
Also 24+6=30 ;)

Wrath of Pie

02-03-2021, 09:47 AM

4. Wrath of Pie: Hickory Woodlot, Ruins of Trokair, Mayor of Avabruck, Windborn Muse

1. Asthereal (TO): Sandstone Needle, City of Traitors, Boldwyr Heavyweights, Goblin Settler LL
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Mountain, Goblin Lackey, Morophon, the Boundless, Karona, False God WL
3. jhhdk: Taiga, Orcish Lumberjack, Ramunap Excavator, Titania, Protector of Argoth LL
5. alphastryk: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Grasping Dunes, Dwarven Hold, Ogre Arsonist LL
6. H: Inkmoth Nexus, Cathedral of War, Quicksand, Maze of Ith WW
7. maxx!: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Hunted Horror, Fourth Bridge Prowler LL
8. FTW: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Maze of Ith, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Murderous Rider LL - I wonder how many points Maze of Ith will cost you for being a blank this round. Murderous Rider is brilliant though.
9. dte: city of traitors, simian spirit guide, simian spirit guide, barbed shocker LL
10. Tylert: City of traitors, Simian spirit guide, Eldrazi Mimic, Phyrexian dreadnought LL
11. Serguei: City of Traitors, Simian spirit guide, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Eldrazi Mimic LL
12. silkster: Swamp, Ruthless Sniper, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Bazaar of Baghdad LL - You are far braver than I, playing a 1/2 as your win condition.
13. Reeplcheep: City of Traitors, Elvish Spirit Guide, Chancellor of the Tangle, Lodestone Golem LL

3w = 9 points

Idiot me took too long to realize that Reef Shaman doesn't exactly work in this round, so I just went with Windborn Muse (expecting the combat tax to cause issues) and a certain mayor and hoped that I wouldn't totally embarrass myself.

FTW

02-03-2021, 09:47 AM

8. FTW: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Maze of Ith, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Murderous Rider

Edit: Oops, Maze is dead and could have been Quicksand for a better result.

Rider loop still works if you don't have LD or spheres. I can choose to not pay the Tabernacle upkeep on Murderous Rider. On my upkeep it goes to bottom of library. I draw it that draw step. Then I have 3 mana to cast Rider or Swift End that same turn. Repeat as often as needed.

1. Asthereal (TO): I do nothing. You have to start with Heavyweights. I play Tabernacle. You can't both keep the Heavyweights and play Settler, so you pay and attack for 8. If I hit 3 lands, I can wait for you to pay the upkeep then Swift End you and untap and play Rider to race Settler. If you let Heavyweights die and Settler me while I have 3 mana, I Swift End Settler in response to draw. So when I'm on 2 lands you have to let Heavyweights die to Settler my land, then the 1/1 wins. LL 0-6
(DD 2-2 if Maze worked by playing T3 Maze)

2. GoblinSmashmaster: Tabernacle forces you to only keep Morophon on your T3 upkeep (losing Lackey) and never cast Karona. That stalls enough for Swift End to win it. WW 6-0

3. jhhdk: Tabernacle stops you from getting Titania mana. You can still pay the upkeep for Lumberjack and cast Ramunap returning your land, then use Lumberjack to pay the upkeep for both. But your creatures are small. Swift End kills Ramunap. I don't need to kill the 1/1, Rider races with lifelink. WW 6-0

4. Wrath of Pie: Tabernacle means you can't cast both Windborn Muse and Mayor (if you do, you have 0 lands in play). You just play T2 Mayor, paying the upkeep with Ruins. Woodlot-Swamp lets you pay the upkeep for 1 token at most, but I Swift End Mayor first and then the token (and Windborn) FTW. WW 6-0

5. alphastryk: Worst I can do is draw by holding up mana to Swift End your guy in response to killing my land.
Can I win? T3 2/3 lifelink races your T5 3/3. If you use Dunes to shrink my guy first (sorcery speed), I let it die and replay as 2/3 before you destroy my land, so that doesn't work. Instead you just play Ogre killing my Urborg. Then neither of us can pay double Tabernacle upkeep! DD 2-2

6. H: Our Mazes suck. Exalted Inkmoth is a faster clock, so I have to hold up Swift End to kill it. You never activate, I never cast my creature, and we stare. DD 2-2

7. maxx!: You play T2 Horror. On my turn 3 I pass with lands up, wait for you to pay the double upkeep and Swift End it after. When you go first, that puts me down to 11. Then I untap and beat the 1/1 with 2/3 lifelink. WW 6-0

9. dte: Nice choice in a meta with no FoW or removal. You wreck my hand. LL 0-6
(WL 3-3 if Maze worked)

10. Tylert: OTP Swift End is fast enough. OTD it isn't. WL 3-3
(WW 6-0 if Maze worked)

11. Serguei: Same as Tylert. WL 3-3
(WW 6-0 if Maze worked)

12. silkster: My loop resets faster than yours. Also Tabernacle taxes your mana so you can't even use Sniper. WW 6-0

13. Reeplcheep: Golem stops me from casting spells. LL 0-6
(DD 2-2 if Maze worked)

40 points (12 wins , 4 draws, 8 losses)

Rider loop still wins the lategame, but losing Maze hurt my ability to slow down the fast decks.
(53 points if Maze worked)

FTW

02-03-2021, 09:48 AM

Completely missed that OO!
But even FTW did, so no shame in the mistake ;)

I'll edit my post.

Oh no. Is that one of the Berserker rules?

I should have read that more carefully. So Maze of Ith does not work in this format.

FTW

02-03-2021, 09:55 AM

2. GoblinSmashmaster: Mountain, Goblin Lackey, Morophon, the Boundless, Karona, False God
10. Tylert: City of traitors, Simian spirit guide, Eldrazi Mimic, Phyrexian dreadnaught

2. Goblinsmashmaster: Can you Kill me turn 3 or interact with our creatures? the answer is no. 6-0 --> 12

I think his deck is a turn 3 kill actually.

T1 Lackey
T2 Lackey hits playing Morophon naming Avatar (19)
T3 Cast Karona for 1 mana. Name Goblins with Karona. Attack with hasty 6/6 Karona + 9/9 Morophon + 4/4 Lackey = 19 damage for lethal

WL 3-3?

I think Tabernacle stills saves me from losing OTD, because he can only keep the Morophon, then I can Swift End it before dying.

Reeplcheep

02-03-2021, 09:58 AM

13. Reeplcheep: City of Traitors, Elvish Spirit Guide, Chancellor of the Tangle, Lodestone Golem

I missed that depths was banned too, so I quickly went with my back up plan of: “when in doubt, t1 sphere”. My version instead of dte’s was because I suspected a lot more t1 burglar rat stuff.

1. Asthereal (TO): Sandstone Needle, City of Traitors, Boldwyr Heavyweights, Goblin Settler
6-0. T1 Sphere.
6

2. GoblinSmashmaster: Mountain, Goblin Lackey, Morophon, the Boundless, Karona, False God
3-3 Can’t block lackey OTD.
9

3. jhhdk: Taiga, Orcish Lumberjack, Ramunap Excavator, Titania, Protector of Argoth
6-0. OTD You can cast Ramunap but not Titania through lodestone with the help of lumber jack. 5/3 races 2/3 & 1/1.
15

4. Wrath of Pie: Hickory Woodlot, Ruins of Trokair, Mayor of Avabruck, Windborn Muse
6-0. You can’t cast muse, and you need to wait until t3 to cast mayor. Which means I win the race.
21

5. alphastryk: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Grasping Dunes, Dwarven Hold, Ogre Arsonist
6-0. I kill you if you try to turbo out arsonist, and using dunes slows you down more than it slows down me.
27

6. H: Inkmoth Nexus, Cathedral of War, Quicksand, Maze of Ith
6-0. Maze does nothing. T5 (6 if you desert) kill >t7 kill
33

7. maxx!: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Hunted Horror, Fourth Bridge Prowler
6-0. You can’t cast horror. I race prowler.
39

8. FTW: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Maze of Ith, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Murderous Rider
6-0. Maze does nothing, you can’t cast either half of rider, and I can pay for tabernacle.
45

9. dte: city of traitors, simian spirit guide, simian spirit guide, barbed shocker
3-3. Basically the mirror. Seems like your hedging against lands and artifacts was better than hedging against t1 untargeted discard.
48

10. Tylert: City of traitors, Simian spirit guide, Eldrazi Mimic, Phyrexian dreadnought
0-6 see below.
48

11. Serguei: City of Traitors, Simian spirit guide, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Eldrazi Mimic
0-6. Dreadnought being an artifact means you can combo off through the sphere with a turn delay.
48

12. silkster: Swamp, Ruthless Sniper, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Bazaar of Baghdad
3-3. OTD you'll kill my dude before I can kill you.
51

Checking my math: 17 W 0D 7L for 51

FTW

02-03-2021, 10:14 AM

Mimic is not an artefact, that should be 3-3.
Also 24+6=30 ;)

He can pay for Mimic with SSG, then play Dreadnought a turn later.

dte

02-03-2021, 10:17 AM

He can pay for Mimic with SSG, then play Dreadnought a turn later.

Indeed, and that's one turn faster than golem.

FTW

02-03-2021, 10:59 AM

4. Wrath of Pie: Hickory Woodlot, Ruins of Trokair, Mayor of Avabruck, Windborn Muse

8. FTW: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Maze of Ith, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Murderous Rider LL - I wonder how many points Maze of Ith will cost you for being a blank this round. Murderous Rider is brilliant though.

Losing Maze hurts a lot but Rider+Tabernacle is still enough to stop you.
Tabernacle means you can't cast both Muse and Mayor because you would have 0 lands left.
If you have to pick one, you're better to play Mayor and use Ruins + Woodlot-Swamp to pay the upkeep for Mayor and 1 token.

Can I Swift End both in time?

Wrath OTP
W - Woodlot
F - Tabernacle

W - Mayor. Ruins tapped.
F - Maze

W - Pay upkeep with Ruins. Mayor flips into 3/3. Attack for 3. Make 3/3 wolf. [F=17]
F - Urborg. Pass

W - Pay upkeeps with Ruins + Woodlot-Swamp. Attack with Mayor + token. I Swift End Mayor and take 3. [F=12]
F - Cast Rider

W - Pay upkeep with Ruins. Attack with token. [F=9]
F - Let Rider die. Draw Swift End and pass.

W - Wait for you to pay the upkeep, then I Swift End the token. [F=7]
F - Cast Rider

W - If you play Windborn Muse, you have to sacrifice both lands and lose to Tabernacle.
I could also let Rider die and Swift End again.

I win this 6-0

jhhdk

02-03-2021, 11:02 AM

1. Asthereal (TO): Sandstone Needle, City of Traitors, Boldwyr Heavyweights, Goblin Settler WL
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Mountain, Goblin Lackey, Morophon, the Boundless, Karona, False God LL See below
3. jhhdk: Taiga, Orcish Lumberjack, Ramunap Excavator, Titania, Protector of Argoth <--- ME
4. Wrath of Pie: Hickory Woodlot, Ruins of Trokair, Mayor of Avabruck, Windborn Muse WW, I can pay for muse
5. alphastryk: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Grasping Dunes, Dwarven Hold, Ogre Arsonist LL Can't play Titania, Can't kill before Arsonist takes land and dudes die.
6. H: Inkmoth Nexus, Cathedral of War, Quicksand, Maze of Ith WW, Looks like I am fast enough even on draw.
7. maxx!: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Hunted Horror, Fourth Bridge Prowler LL, Can't keep my dudes alive after Prowler kills my Lumberjack
8. FTW: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Maze of Ith, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Murderous Rider LL, Tabernacle prevents me from playing Titiana, Swift End kills kill my Excavator, Lumberjack loses race.
9. dte: city of traitors, simian spirit guide, simian spirit guide, barbed shockerLL, I get shocked,
10. Tylert: City of traitors, Simian spirit guide, Eldrazi Mimic, Phyrexian dreadnaught LL Duh!
11. Serguei: City of Traitors, Simian spirit guide, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Eldrazi Mimic LL, Duh!
12. silkster: Swamp, Ruthless Sniper, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Bazaar of Baghdad LL, You snipe Lumberjack before I play Titania, Then snipe Excavator and ride sniper to Victory.
13. Reeplcheep: City of Traitors, Elvish Spirit Guide, Chancellor of the Tangle, Lodestone Golem LL, Golem prevents Titania and wins race

Vs. GoblinSmasher
OTP
J: Taiga, Lumberjack
G: Mountain, Lackey
J: Sac Taiga, Excavator, Return Taiga
G: Attack lackey, play Morophon, Karona 19/20
J: Play Titania, Return Taiga, Attack Excavator, Karona, 19/12
G: Attack Morophon(6+3/6+3), Lackey(1+3+1/1+3+1), Karona (5/5) 0/12 Missed the +1/+1 from Morophon when i first looked at this :-(
J: Attack Lumberjack(1+3/1+3), Excavator (2/3), Titania (5/3), Token (5/3), Karona (5/5) 0/-9

OTD
Not even close.
0-6

alphastryk

02-03-2021, 11:11 AM

I didn't spend a ton of time thinking this round through, so I basically came up with a poison deck, the tweaked it to beat Tabernacle, then decided to play a Tabernacle deck that beat my poison deck, and chose the larger but slightly slower land destroying creature over Goblin Settler. Clearly my approach was not so good.

1. Asthereal (TO): Sandstone Needle , City of Traitors, Boldwyr Heavyweights, Goblin Settler
I get crushed by the Heavyweights. LL

0-6

2. GoblinSmashmaster: Mountain, Goblin Lackey, Morophon, the Boundless, Karona, False God
You Lackey out Morophon, then choose to keep Morophon from Tabernacle. Karona is a false god and does nothing. Morophon kills me on your turn 6 if I did my math right. The fastest I can play my Ogre is on my turn 6, so I should be able, to win OTP via Tabernacle but lose the race OTD. WL

3-3

3. jhhdk: Taiga, Orcish Lumberjack, Ramunap Excavator, Titania, Protector of Argoth
You can play Lumberjack, then pay for it and use it to play Excavator and replay your land. After that, you can only keep both creatures if you use Lumberjack every turn to do so, which taps it and makes it not do anything. So, this comes down to me racing your 2/3, but my Ogre blows up your land on my Turn 6 which should always do enough. WW

6-0

4. Wrath of Pie: Hickory Woodlot, Ruins of Trokair, Mayor of Avabruck, Windborn Muse
I think your only way through a Tabernacle is to use Woodlot to play Mayor and use Ruins to pay the tax for him afterwards. He will turn into a 3/3 but not get to keep any tokens, which is too slow and the Ogre blows up your Ruins. WW

6-0

5. alphastryk: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Grasping Dunes, Dwarven Hold, Ogre Arsonist
This is me

6. H: Inkmoth Nexus, Cathedral of War, Quicksand, Maze of Ith
A poison deck I'm setup to beat with Grasping Dunes. EDIT: Except Dunes is sorcery speed and you play Inkmoth. You win on your turn 7, and I can Ogre Inkmoth on my turn 6, so this should still be WW.

6-0

7. maxx!: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Hunted Horror, Fourth Bridge Prowler
Hunted Horror + Tabernacle is pretty good tech, wish I'd thought of that. The Horror survives both Tabernacles, and I can't remove Urborg until my turn 5 which is too slow. LL

0-6

8. FTW: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Maze of Ith, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Murderous Rider
If you play our your Urborg, I can win by blowing it up with my Ogre. If you sit on Urborg forever, you can force a draw however, as if I ever play my Ogre you can remove it and have a threat afterwards. DD

2-2

9. dte: city of traitors, simian spirit guide, simian spirit guide, barbed shocker
How could I forget about this guy! Get shocked. LL

0-6

10. Tylert: City of traitors, Simian spirit guide, Eldrazi Mimic, Phyrexian dreadnought
This is a faster kill than the poison decks I could come up with and beats Tabernacle. LL

0-6

11. Serguei: City of Traitors, Simian spirit guide, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Eldrazi Mimic
This is a faster kill than the poison decks I could come up with and beats Tabernacle. LL

0-6

12. silkster: Swamp, Ruthless Sniper, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Bazaar of Baghdad
This is a cool removal plan - I didn't realize Bazaar was not banned, as it is in real Legacy. EDIT 4: It turns out if anyone is proactive here, they lose. DD

2-2

13. Reeplcheep: City of Traitors, Elvish Spirit Guide, Chancellor of the Tangle, Lodestone Golem
This is definitely something I should have thought of. Golem kills me before I can make an Ogre. LL

0-6

Total: 25 points

02-03-2021, 11:32 AM

6. H: Inkmoth Nexus, Cathedral of War, Quicksand, Maze of Ith
A poison deck I'm setup to beat with Grasping Dunes. WW

6-0

Dunes is only Sorcery-speed so it will never get the Inkmoth, but I don't think it matters much since Arsonist likely comes down fast enough.

GoblinSmashmaster

02-03-2021, 11:39 AM

GoblinBerserkMaster Results for Round Berserk

1. Asthereal (TO): Sandstone Needle, City of Traitors, Boldwyr Heavyweights, Goblin Settler
Goblins smash! 6-0

2. GoblinSmashmaster: Mountain, Goblin Lackey, Morophon, the Boundless, Karona, False God
That's me, smashing with Goblins!

3. jhhdk: Taiga, Orcish Lumberjack, Ramunap Excavator, Titania, Protector of Argoth
Goblins smash! 6-0

4. Wrath of Pie: Hickory Woodlot, Ruins of Trokair, Mayor of Avabruck, Windborn Muse
Goblins smash, then blow away in wind 3-3

5. alphastryk: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Grasping Dunes, Dwarven Hold, Ogre Arsonist
Goblin smash, then burned 3-3

6. H: Inkmoth Nexus, Cathedral of War, Quicksand, Maze of Ith
Goblin falls in Quicksand 0-6

7. maxx!: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Hunted Horror, Fourth Bridge Prowler
Goblin falls under the bridge 0-6

8. FTW: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Maze of Ith, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Murderous Rider
Goblins murdered 0-6

9. dte: city of traitors, simian spirit guide, simian spirit guide, barbed shocker
Barber smash :( 0-6

10. Tylert: City of traitors, Simian spirit guide, Eldrazi Mimic, Phyrexian dreadnought
Goblin smash, then Dreadnought smash 3-3

11. Serguei: City of Traitors, Simian spirit guide, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Eldrazi Mimic
Goblin smash, then Dreadnought smash 3-3

12. silkster: Swamp, Ruthless Sniper, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Bazaar of Baghdad
Goblin smash, then sniped 3-3

13. Reeplcheep: City of Traitors, Elvish Spirit Guide, Chancellor of the Tangle, Lodestone Golem
Goblin smash, then Golem 3-3

Total: 30 points

dte

02-03-2021, 12:22 PM

12. silkster: Swamp, Ruthless Sniper, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Bazaar of Baghdad
This is a cool removal plan - I didn't realize Bazaar was not banned, as it is in real Legacy. I should be able to blow up your Swamp with my Ogre if you ever play it though, and your Sniper is too slow to race. WW

6-0

If you blow up swamp, kozilek and bazaar rebuy it in 2 turns, fast enough to eat ogres.

Tylert

02-03-2021, 12:27 PM

Mimic is not an artifact, but I can play Mimic T1 with guide, then dreadnaught T2 to win T4. Lodestone kills me T5 only.

Lackey beats a little bit more than I planned.

It is not cool to try to add 2 points to my total...

All of this is fixed.

alphastryk

02-03-2021, 01:27 PM

Dunes is only Sorcery-speed so it will never get the Inkmoth, but I don't think it matters much since Arsonist likely comes down fast enough.

I knew I should have reread Dunes. The earliest I can make the Ogre is my turn 6, Inkmoth kills on H's turn 7, so this should still be WW 6-0 but will update my logic.

If you blow up swamp, kozilek and bazaar rebuy it in 2 turns, fast enough to eat ogres.

I guess Bazaar Kozilek does loop Swamp + Sniper after 2 turns which is enough as the Ogre is not a quick kill so this should be LL 0-6. Will update.

silkster

02-03-2021, 03:34 PM

12. silkster: Swamp, Ruthless Sniper, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Bazaar of Baghdad

1. Asthereal (TO): Sandstone Needle, City of Traitors, Boldwyr Heavyweights, Goblin Settler LL
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Mountain, Goblin Lackey, Morophon, the Boundless, Karona, False God WL
3. jhhdk: Taiga, Orcish Lumberjack, Ramunap Excavator, Titania, Protector of Argoth WW (updated)
4. Wrath of Pie: Hickory Woodlot, Ruins of Trokair, Mayor of Avabruck, Windborn Muse WW
5. alphastryk: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Grasping Dunes, Dwarven Hold, Ogre Arsonist LL
I did this without thinking too carefully, but after closer consideration, I still think you win. You wait until turn 15 to cast Arsonist killing the Bazaar with ~10 counters on the Hold. You then Dunes my 1/2 into an 0/1, and you can pay for the Arsonist long enough to win.
I don't play my Bazaar! You shrink the Sniper to an 0/1. I have to play Bazaar to rebuy Sniper, but it's not faster enough, so it's a losing line that I don't take. DD

6. H: Inkmoth Nexus, Cathedral of War, Quicksand, Maze of Ith WW
Maze of Ith is an oops because combat damage to players can't be prevented.

7. maxx!: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Hunted Horror, Fourth Bridge Prowler LL
8. FTW: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Maze of Ith, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Murderous Rider WW
I did not know that Murderous Rider was its own loop. I've never cast that card or seen one in person. :(

9. dte: city of traitors, simian spirit guide, simian spirit guide, barbed shocker WW
When I found this deck, I was like "damn, ain't nothin' gonna be that except a pile of red Chancellors". Unfortunately, I metagamed too hard against this deck.

10. Tylert: City of traitors, Simian spirit guide, Eldrazi Mimic, Phyrexian dreadnought LL
A turn 3 kill! The fastest that I could find was turn 4. Nice.

11. Serguei: City of Traitors, Simian spirit guide, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Eldrazi Mimic LL
13. Reeplcheep: City of Traitors, Elvish Spirit Guide, Chancellor of the Tangle, Lodestone Golem WL

32 points = 2.67 round points. I really thought people would go heavier on the interaction. I also didn't think so many people would play 1/1s that I needed to kill on turn 1. I think my last minute switch away from Fumespitter was a net negative. I should have played a more aggressive deck.

You know, after I found Barbed Shocker this round, I almost submitted it along with a note saying:
Barbed Shocker is the obvious best deck that everyone will play, so me-from-the-start-of-Season-7 would have submitted 3 red Chancellors to beat it because everyone will be playing Barbed Shocker. But I've learned, so now I'll just submit the Barbed Shocker itself."

Then I found a whole bunch of other decks that beat it and I moved away from it. Stupid me overthinking again. I really had no idea what the meta would look like. In my list of 20 or 30 cards to consider, the only ones that got played were Barbed Shocker, Goblin Lackey, and Fourth Bridge Prowler (plus City of Traitors and free mana creatures).

One of my frontrunners for deck choice would have gone 16W, 5D, 3L (modulo errors, of which I've already found 2). This round is interesting and I want to play more of it.

alphastryk

02-03-2021, 04:04 PM

...
5. alphastryk: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Grasping Dunes, Dwarven Hold, Ogre Arsonist LL
I did this without thinking too carefully, but after closer consideration, I still think you win. You wait until turn 15 to cast Arsonist killing the Bazaar with ~10 counters on the Hold. You then Dunes my 1/2 into an 0/1, and you can pay for the Arsonist long enough to win.
...

This makes a lot more sense than the things I was trying to do. Will update again.

jhhdk

02-03-2021, 04:06 PM

12. silkster: Swamp, Ruthless Sniper, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Bazaar of Baghdad
3. jhhdk: Taiga, Orcish Lumberjack, Ramunap Excavator, Titania, Protector of Argoth WL

I have this as LL for me. What am I missing?
OTP:
J: Taiga, Lumberjack
S: Swamp, Sniper
J: Excavator
S: Snipe, Lumberjack
J: Attack 2/3
S: Snipe Excavator
J: Attack 1/2
S: Snipe Excavator

02-03-2021, 04:07 PM

6. H: Inkmoth Nexus, Cathedral of War, Quicksand, Maze of Ith WW
Maze of Ith is an oops because combat damage to players can't be prevented.

Yeah, Maze is a blank card, but Quicksand still kills Sniper since if you play it, as it has to attack the next turn and I am not forced to activate Inkmoth so you wouldn't ever get a target, I think.

silkster

02-03-2021, 04:13 PM

I have this as LL for me. What am I missing?
OTP:
J: Taiga, Lumberjack
S: Swamp, Sniper
J: Excavator
S: Snipe, Lumberjack
J: Attack 2/3
S: Snipe Excavator
J: Attack 1/2
S: Snipe Excavator

Nothing. My pessimistic thoughts told me that once Excavator was down, it was too late to do anything. Thanks! Updated now.

Yeah, Maze is a blank card, but Quicksand still kills Sniper since if you play it, as it has to attack the next turn and I am not forced to activate Inkmoth so you wouldn't ever get a target, I think.
You can kill the Sniper and I can shuffle it back in. You get 3 attacks in, but not enough to win. I think.

Asthereal

02-03-2021, 04:16 PM

Guys, please note that we have to attack every turn with our sad dudes. (EDIT: The rules also say they can't block.) That's in the rules for the round that most of us never read properly in the first place, I fear. :laugh:

Asthereal's scores for round hey cool the new Steven Wilson album is out!

1. Asthereal (TO): Sandstone Needle, City of Traitors, Boldwyr Heavyweights, Goblin Settler
That's me. I forgot about many things, by the looks of what you guys sent in. Let's see how much that hurts.
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Mountain, Goblin Lackey, Morophon, the Boundless, Karona, False God EDIT: Nope, no disagreement.
EDIT: So I wanted to block your Lackey. That's a good idea. If it works. But the rules say no, so it's not. 0-6
3. jhhdk: Taiga, Orcish Lumberjack, Ramunap Excavator, Titania, Protector of Argoth
OTP I can Settler your land before your engine comes online. OTD not so much, so I have to race there, but it doesn't look like I'll get very far. 3-3.
4. Wrath of Pie: Hickory Woodlot, Ruins of Trokair, Mayor of Avabruck, Windborn Muse
EDIT: The rules also say we can't block. New math below. Since we can't interact worth a damn, the Heavyweights just race like madmen. 6-0
5. alphastryk: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Grasping Dunes, Dwarven Hold, Ogre Arsonist
I can pay for Nacle, Settler is faster than Arsonist and the Heavyweights don't die to Dunes, so I kill the Hold with the Settler and the big boys win it. 6-0
6. H: Inkmoth Nexus, Cathedral of War, Quicksand, Maze of Ith
Settler kills the Nexus and Heavyweights win it. 6-0
7. maxx!: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Hunted Horror, Fourth Bridge Prowler
Heavyweights are bigger. :) 6-0
8. FTW: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Maze of Ith, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Murderous Rider
The Settler lands fast enough to blow up a land before your Murderous Rider can start to do nasty things. I can pay for Nacle and Maze doesn't work very well, so the Heavyweights should finish the job nicely. If you wait and do nothing until I make the Heavyweights, I'll wait and smack face until you Murderous thingy it, then follow up with Settler, taking out a land and winning with the 1/1. Well spotted on that line. I missed it. 6-0
9. dte: city of traitors, simian spirit guide, simian spirit guide, barbed shocker
Yeah, I forgot about that Shocker dude. 0-6
10. Tylert: City of traitors, Simian spirit guide, Eldrazi Mimic, Phyrexian dreadnought
When you snet me this, I didn't spot the tech. Then Serguei sent the same deck and I spent a minute or two thinking what the heck I was missing. A turn 1 12/12 trample was what I was missing. I can't beat that. :) 0-6
11. Serguei: City of Traitors, Simian spirit guide, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Eldrazi Mimic
Need another one. Give me another one! (Actually no, don't do that.) 0-6
12. silkster: Swamp, Ruthless Sniper, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Bazaar of Baghdad
Uh, what's that Bazaar do in this deck exactly? Or did you mean to send something else and got confused? Anyway, Heavyweights should do enough here I think, especially as you can't cast the Sniper before I cast the big dudes, as you'll be forced to attack into them and lose the Sniper. 6-0
13. Reeplcheep: City of Traitors, Elvish Spirit Guide, Chancellor of the Tangle, Lodestone Golem
Yeah, I forgot about the Golem as well... 0-6

Total: 39 points

Against Wrath, OTD:
W: Woodlot
A: Needle
W: Ruins, Mayor
A: City, Settler, killing Ruins
W: Attack for 1, A=19
A: Heavyweights, attack for 1, W=19
W: Attack for 1, A=18
A: Upkeep: Mayor flips. Attack for 9, W=10
W: Attack for 3, A=16, make a 3/3
A: Attack for 9, W=1
W: Attack for 6, A=8, make a 3/3
A: Attack for 9, W dies.
So I win that race.

dte

02-03-2021, 04:16 PM

12. silkster: Swamp, Ruthless Sniper, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Bazaar of Baghdad

5. alphastryk: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Grasping Dunes, Dwarven Hold, Ogre Arsonist LL
I did this without thinking too carefully, but after closer consideration, I still think you win. You wait until turn 15 to cast Arsonist killing the Bazaar with ~10 counters on the Hold. You then Dunes my 1/2 into an 0/1, and you can pay for the Arsonist long enough to win.

You could also not play bazaar for DD?

9. dte: city of traitors, simian spirit guide, simian spirit guide, barbed shocker WW
When I found this deck, I was like "damn, ain't nothin' gonna be that except a pile of red Chancellors". Unfortunately, I metagamed too hard against this deck.

On the draw, you lose on my T10 by drawing Kozilek each turn: you control the shuffle trigger, so the order is the worse for you.

Edit:

From here, I keep Settler in hand. If you cast Lackey, I cast Settler afterwards and you'll have to attack into it and we trade.

3. Berserker: Creatures can't block, creatures attack each turn if able, combat damage cannot be prevented, prevent all non-combat damage to players. Your deck may only contain creature and land cards.

02-03-2021, 04:16 PM

You can kill the Sniper and I can shuffle it back in. You get 3 attacks in, but not enough to win. I think.

Oh, yeah, I forgot Kozi shuffled the whole 'yard.

jhhdk

02-03-2021, 04:24 PM

10. Tylert: City of traitors, Simian spirit guide, Eldrazi Mimic, Phyrexian dreadnought LL
A turn 3 kill! The fastest that I could find was tunr 4. Nice.

(emphasis added)
Whenever another colorless creature enters the battlefield under your control,
you may change Eldrazi Mimic's base power and toughness to that creature's
power and toughness until end of turn.

Again am i missing something?
T: Eldrazi Mimic
S: Sniper
T: Dreadnaught, Attack Eldrazi Dreadnaught 20/8
S: Snipe Mimic
T: Attack Eldrazi Mimic 20/7
S: Snipe Mimic

Asthereal

02-03-2021, 04:27 PM

3. Berserker: Creatures can't block, creatures attack each turn if able, combat damage cannot be prevented, prevent all non-combat damage to players. Your deck may only contain creature and land cards.
LOL, nobody read the rules. Not even me. And I wrote them.

silkster

02-03-2021, 04:29 PM

You could also not play bazaar for DD?
Oh yeah, that's smart. I'm not too careful when I feel defeated. Actually, now the race might be on. Hmm.

On the draw, you lose on my T10 by drawing Kozilek each turn: you control the shuffle trigger, so the order is the worse for you.

Shocker isn't "discard your hand". I draw Kozilek for turn, but on your second hit, I discard Kozilek and draw something else to replace it. Then I draw for my turn and have 2 cards in my hand and 2 in library, which means I can either start playing lands this turn or next turn. This one I thought about because Barbed Shocker was the only decklist I expected.

Again am i missing something?
T: Eldrazi Mimic
S: Sniper
T: Dreadnaught, Attack Eldrazi Dreadnaught 20/8
S: Snipe Mimic
T: Attack Eldrazi Mimic 20/7
S: Snipe Mimic
Yeah, you're missing that you can sack the 12/12 mimic to keep the Dreadnought around.

Arsonist Math
Tapped Hold; Swamp + Sniper
Dunes, H1; attack for 1.
make sniper 0/1, Bazaar, activate stacking triggers to kill sniper before the shuffle; draw Emrakul
H1; draw Sniper, cast Sniper
H2; attack for 1
H3; attack for 1
H4; attack for 1
H5; attack for 1
Arsonist targeting Bazaar, activate in response to shrink Arsonist, but Bazaar does not come back; attack for 1.
And you now kill in 10 turns, which is too fast for me. So I don't show my Bazaar and take the draw.

Tylert

02-03-2021, 04:52 PM

Again am i missing something?
T: Eldrazi Mimic
S: Sniper
T: Dreadnaught, Attack Eldrazi Dreadnaught 20/8
S: Snipe Mimic
T: Attack Eldrazi Mimic 20/7
S: Snipe Mimic

I'm playing Mimic T1, then dreadnought T1 too. Stack the triggers so that I Transform mimic into a 12/12 first and then sac it to dreadnought. I end up with a PERMANENT 12/12 and You never have a window to kill my 2/1.

silkster

02-03-2021, 04:54 PM

Wrath of Pie

02-03-2021, 04:54 PM

LOL, nobody read the rules. Not even me. And I wrote them.
Well, the first rule of berserker club is to just go berserk and disregard any rules, so I think we all did quite well.

FTW

02-03-2021, 05:30 PM

On the draw, you lose on my T10 by drawing Kozilek each turn: you control the shuffle trigger, so the order is the worse for you.

It's not Progenitus. It doesn't reshuffle between the discard and draw. Kozi will stack after the draw is done. By holding more than 1 card in hand it will eventually dig him past Kozilek to cast things.

T1 - Shocker [18]. Discard hand and draw 0 cards.
Library = Kozilek, Sniper, Bazaar, Swamp
Draw Kozi. Go

T2 - Shocker [16]. Discard Kozi, draw 1 card = Sniper. Kozi reshuffles.
Library = Kozilek, Bazaar, Swamp
Draw Kozi. Go

T3 - Shocker [14]. Discard Kozi & Sniper, draw 2 cards = Bazaar + Swamp. Kozi reshuffles.
Library = Kozilek, Sniper
Draw Kozi. Play Swamp. Go

T4 - Shocker [12]. Discard Kozi & Bazaar, draw 1 card = Sniper. Kozi reshuffles.
Library = Kozilek, Bazaar
Draw Kozi. Play Sniper. Go

T5 Shocker [10]. Discard Kozi, draw 1 card = Bazaar. Kozi reshuffles
Library = Kozilek
Draw Kozi. Play Bazaar. Make Shocker 1/1. Sniper attacks
Library = Kozilek

T6 Shocker [9]. Discard 0, draw 0.
Draw Kozi. Make Shocker 0/0

It's slow but he eventually gets there by drawing more than 1 card each time, which forces him to eventually find lands.

jhhdk

02-03-2021, 05:37 PM

I'm playing Mimic T1, then dreadnought T1 too. Stack the triggers so that I Transform mimic into a 12/12 first and then sac it to dreadnought. I end up with a PERMANENT 12/12 and You never have a window to kill my 2/1.

Lol man do i feel dumb. I need to adjust my results.
Reading cards helps in figuring out results or so i've heard.
In my mind Dreadnaught was just "the thing you have to stiffle" to cheat it in.

FTW

02-03-2021, 05:39 PM

8. FTW: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Maze of Ith, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Murderous Rider WW
I did not know that Murderous Rider was its own loop. I've never cast that card or seen one in person. :(

With Tabernacle you can choose to not pay the upkeep, causing it to go to the bottom of library on upkeep and get redrawn that same turn. So it can loop as a creature every turn or as a spell every 2nd turn.

Rider is a powerhouse in Limited and Standard just as a 2-for-1. It probably didn't show up on our 4CB before because it's from a recent set and we just played 24 weeks of Pauper and Peasant. I only noticed the interaction today when trying to find a win condition with Tabernacle + Maze.

dte

02-04-2021, 03:09 AM

Well, the first rule of berserker club is to just go berserk and disregard any rules, so I think we all did quite well.

That I did well. And all-in on one card, and did not bother to read this single card until the end...

FTW

02-04-2021, 04:42 AM

That I did well. And all-in on one card, and did not bother to read this single card until the end...

I'll sure second that, with Maze of Ith.
You mean that card doesn't just say "remove target attacker from combat"?

1. Asthereal (TO): Sandstone Needle, City of Traitors, Boldwyr Heavyweights, Goblin Settler
That's me. I forgot about many things, by the looks of what you guys sent in. Let's see how much that hurts.

12. silkster: Swamp, Ruthless Sniper, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Bazaar of Baghdad
Uh, what's that Bazaar do in this deck exactly? Or did you mean to send something else and got confused? Anyway, Heavyweights should do enough here I think, especially as you can't cast the Sniper before I cast the big dudes, as you'll be forced to attack into them and lose the Sniper. 6-0

Right result for the wrong reason. Heavyweights can't block. Those pesky rules.

Silk's deck basically has "Tap both lands: Put a -1/-1 counter on target creature".
Bazaar will tap every turn to draw 0 and discard Kozilek, triggering Sniper and then reshuffling.

That will eventually kill most threats. But an 8/8 is big and races. Goblin Settler also steals a few turns of tempo by destroying a land.

Asthereal

02-04-2021, 04:42 AM

Well, the first rule of berserker club is to just go berserk and disregard any rules, so I think we all did quite well.
That's fair. :smile:

By the way, we have different scores in our matches. Check my results post for details.
I may have forgotten about some things though, as I have several times already.

Wrath of Pie

02-04-2021, 06:07 AM

That's fair. :smile:

By the way, we have different scores in our matches. Check my results post for details.
I may have forgotten about some things though, as I have several times already.
Heavyweights is too big for me to race on the play, and Goblin Settler makes me sad on the draw by not letting me cast a single spell, so you're right.

alphastryk

02-04-2021, 09:04 AM

Oh yeah, that's smart. I'm not too careful when I feel defeated. Actually, now the race might be on. Hmm.

...

Arsonist Math
Tapped Hold; Swamp + Sniper
Dunes, H1; attack for 1.
make sniper 0/1, Bazaar, activate stacking triggers to kill sniper before the shuffle; draw Emrakul
H1; draw Sniper, cast Sniper
H2; attack for 1
H3; attack for 1
H4; attack for 1
H5; attack for 1
Arsonist targeting Bazaar, activate in response to shrink Arsonist, but Bazaar does not come back; attack for 1.
And you now kill in 10 turns, which is too fast for me. So I don't show my Bazaar and take the draw.

Double checking to see if I can win if you hold Bazaar.
s t1: swamp, sniper
a t1: Hold
s t2: attack (a: 19, s: 20)
a t2: Tabernacle, charge Hold (1)
s t3: attack (a:18, s: 20)
a t3: Dunes, charge Hold (2)
s t4: attack (a:17, s: 20)
a t4: charge Hold (3)
s t5: attack (a:16, s: 20)
a t5: charge Hold (4)
s t6: attack (a:15, s: 20)
a t6: cast Arsonist blowing up Swamp.
s t7: cannot pay for Tabernacle, Sniper dies. Bazaar is now safe so it gets played and activated, reshuffling Sniper, Swamp, and Kozilek.
a t7: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 17)
s t8: draw Kozilek
a t8: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 14)
s t9: draw Sniper
a t9: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 11)
s t10: draw Swamp, play Sniper.
a t10: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 8)
s t11: Tabernacle trigger on the stack, use Sniper to shrink Arsonist (2/2). Kozilek reshuffles while Sniper remains in the graveyard.
a t11: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 6)
s t12: draw Kozilek. Use Bazaar to reshuffle Kozilek and Sniper.
a t12: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 4)
s t13: draw Kozilek
a t13: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 2)
s t14: draw Sniper, play Sniper
a t14: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 0)

if I did the math right, you can't hold Bazaar, as I win the race by blowing up the Swamp this way. You can gain a turn in there by holding Sniper early as well as Bazaar, but 1 turn isn't enough.

dte

02-04-2021, 09:19 AM

Double checking to see if I can win if you hold Bazaar.
...
if I did the math right, you can't hold Bazaar, as I win the race by blowing up the Swamp this way. You can gain a turn in there by holding Sniper early as well as Bazaar, but 1 turn isn't enough.

As silkster cannot win as long as you hold arsonist, he can as well hold everything as well, including swamp. He can also activate bazaar in his upkeep to draw Kozilek while reshuffling sniper. You just wait until turn 25 to supercharge hold, for it to always pay for tabernacle, then:

a: cast arsonist.
S: swamp, sniper
a: tabernacle, attack 17
S: pay for tabby, play bazaar.
a: pay, attack 14
S: tabby trigger, resp bazaar --> arsonist 2/2, sniper in gy, kozi in lib
a: pay, attack 12
S: activate bazaar in upkeep, draw kozilek and sniper is on the top of the library.
a: pay, attack 10
S: draw and play sniper
a: pay, attack 8
S: tabby trigger, resp bazaar --> arsonist 1/1

===> It is a draw as whoever plays something first looses.

alphastryk

02-04-2021, 09:49 AM

As silkster cannot win as long as you hold arsonist, he can as well hold everything as well, including swamp. He can also activate bazaar in his upkeep to draw Kozilek while reshuffling sniper. You just wait until turn 25 to supercharge hold, for it to always pay for tabernacle, then:

a: cast arsonist.
S: swamp, sniper
a: tabernacle, attack 17
S: pay for tabby, play bazaar.
a: pay, attack 14
S: tabby trigger, resp bazaar --> arsonist 2/2, sniper in gy, kozi in lib
a: pay, attack 12
S: activate bazaar in upkeep, draw kozilek and sniper is on the top of the library.
a: pay, attack 10
S: draw and play sniper
a: pay, attack 8
S: tabby trigger, resp bazaar --> arsonist 1/1

===> It is a draw as whoever plays something first looses.

OK, I definitely did fail to math the draws correctly, as the Tabernacle + Sniping etc happens in upkeep so Kozilek is immediately redrawn which changes the math.

Redoing that below:

...
a t6: cast Arsonist blowing up Swamp.
s t7: cannot pay for Tabernacle, Sniper dies. Bazaar is now safe so it gets played and activated, reshuffling Sniper, Swamp, and Kozilek. Draw Kozilek for turn.
a t7: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 17)
s t8: draw Sniper
a t8: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 14)
s t9: draw Swamp, play Sniper
a t9: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 11)
s t10: Tabernacle trigger on the stack, use Sniper to shrink Arsonist (2/2). Kozilek reshuffles while Sniper remains in the graveyard. Draw Kozilek for turn.
a t10: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 9)
s t11: Draw Sniper, play Sniper.
a t11: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 7)
s t12: Tabernacle trigger on the stack, use Sniper to shrink Arsonist (1/1). Kozilek reshuffles while Sniper remains in the graveyard. Draw Kozilek for turn.
a t12: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 6)
s t13: draw Sniper, play Sniper.
a t13: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 5)
s t14: Tabernacle trigger on the stack, use Sniper to shrink Arsonist (0/0). Kozilek reshuffles while Sniper remains in the graveyard. Draw Kozilek for turn.

That actually seems to lead to a win for silkster by forcing me to take the initiative.

If instead of playing Arsonist or Tabernacle, I instead just use Hold and Dunes to shrink Sniper, then I think we end up back in the draw scenario.

Going to run through one last scenario just in case - silkster holds everything and I just jam a 3/3 as soon as I can to race.

...
a t6: play Arsonist, blowing up my own Hold as I no longer need it. I have Dunes to pay for Tabernacle when needed.
s t6: Play swamp, Sniper
a t7: pay for Tabernacle, attack (a: 20, s: 17)
s t7: pay for Tabernacle, play Bazaar, attack (a: 19, s: 17)
a t8: pay for Tabernacle, attack (a: 19, s: 14)
s t8: Tabernacle trigger on the stack, activate Bazaar and Snipe Arsonist (2/2). Kozilek reshuffles and is drawn for the turn.
a t9: pay for Tabernacle, attack (a: 19, s: 12)
s t9: upkeep Bazaar to reshuffle Kozilek and Sniper. Draw Kozilek for turn.
a t10: pay for Tabernacle, attack (a: 19, s: 10)
s t10: draw Sniper, play Sniper
a t11: pay for Tabernacle, attack (a: 19, s: 8)
s t11: Tabernacle trigger on the stack, activate Bazaar and Snipe Arsonist (1/1). Kozilek reshuffles and is drawn for the turn.
a t12: pay for Tabernacle, attack (a: 19, s: 7)
s t12: upkeep Bazaar to reshuffle Kozilek and Sniper. Draw Kozilek for turn.
a t13: pay for Tabernacle, attack (a: 19, s: 6)
s t13: draw Sniper, play Sniper
a t14: pay for Tabernacle, attack (a: 19, s: 5)
s t14: Tabernacle trigger on the stack, activate Bazaar and Snipe Arsonist (0/0).

A draw it is! updating original results.

dte

02-04-2021, 10:09 AM

s t10: Tabernacle trigger on the stack, use Sniper to shrink Arsonist (2/2). Kozilek reshuffles while Sniper remains in the graveyard. Draw Kozilek for turn.
a t10: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 9)
s t11: Draw Sniper, play Sniper.
a t11: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 7)
s t12: Tabernacle trigger on the stack, use Sniper to shrink Arsonist (1/1). Kozilek reshuffles while Sniper remains in the graveyard. Draw Kozilek for turn.
a t12: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 6)
s t13: draw Sniper, play Sniper.

Shouldn't work that way :)
But the draw is there, as you cannot cast anything if silk doesn't play a land.

alphastryk

02-04-2021, 12:52 PM

Shouldn't work that way :)
But the draw is there, as you cannot cast anything if silk doesn't play a land.

Right, I'm forgetting the turn of "Upkeep Bazaar to reshuffle Kozilek and Sniper" in between. Redoing that (again) below:

...
a t6: cast Arsonist blowing up Swamp.
s t6: cannot pay for Tabernacle, Sniper dies. Bazaar is now safe so it gets played and activated, reshuffling Sniper, Swamp, and Kozilek. Draw Kozilek for turn.
a t7: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 17)
s t7: draw Sniper
a t8: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 14)
s t8: draw Swamp, play Sniper
a t9: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 11)
s t9: Tabernacle trigger on the stack, use Sniper to shrink Arsonist (2/2). Kozilek reshuffles while Sniper remains in the graveyard. Draw Kozilek for turn.
a t10: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 9)
s t10: Upkeep Bazaar to reshuffle Kozilek and Sniper. Draw Kozilek for turn.
a t11: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 7)
s t11: draw Sniper, play Sniper.
a t12: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 5)
s t12: Tabernacle trigger on the stack, use Sniper to shrink Arsonist (1/1). Kozilek reshuffles while Sniper remains in the graveyard. Draw Kozilek for turn.
a t13: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 4)
s t13: Upkeep Bazaar to reshuffle Kozilek and Sniper. Draw Kozilek for turn.
a t14: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 3)
s t14: draw Sniper, play Sniper.
a t15: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 2)
s t15: Tabernacle trigger on the stack, use Sniper to shrink Arsonist (0/0). Kozilek reshuffles while Sniper remains in the graveyard. Draw Kozilek for turn.

This line still loses for me though, so can silkster force this path to be taken? I think not because Dunes can always shrink the Sniper and if I don't play Tabernacle, Sniper stays as an 0/1. The only way silkster can change that is to play Bazaar, and any line with Bazaar in play for me to blow up is a win for me. It remains a draw.

Tylert

02-04-2021, 01:31 PM

Why is bazaar of bagdad legal? It's banned in legacy...
(Just asking. It's not that good anyway).

Asthereal

02-04-2021, 03:09 PM

Why is bazaar of bagdad legal? It's banned in legacy...
(Just asking. It's not that good anyway).
Ancestral Recall is also legal. It's because it's crap in 4CB, so we never bothered to ban it.

Legacy is all cards are legal, and legal up to 4 copies per deck, except for cards that break the format, which are completely banned.
Vintage, on the other hand, is all cards are legal, and cards that break the format are restricted to one copy per deck.
So I think we're doing what we're supposed to be doing. :wink:

silkster

02-04-2021, 03:15 PM

Why is bazaar of bagdad legal? It's banned in legacy...
(Just asking. It's not that good anyway).

I wish it were illegal (and I did double check because it's banned in normal Legacy). My two backup decks would have done much better! I hope I get a chance to play them at a future date.

Reeplcheep

02-04-2021, 03:17 PM

If someone can find a way to make dig through time or gitaxian probe work in 4CB, more power to them.

Wrath of Pie

02-04-2021, 03:18 PM

Ancestral Recall is also legal. It's because it's crap in 4CB, so we never bothered to ban it.

Legacy is all cards are legal, and legal up to 4 copies per deck, except for cards that break the format, which are completely banned.
Vintage, on the other hand, is all cards are legal, and cards that break the format are restricted to one copy per deck.
So I think we're doing what we're supposed to be doing. :wink:
Except Lurrus, which (likely) still breaks Vintage with one copy.

Ancestral Recall is on the banlist, believe it or not, so it's not actually legal.

dte

02-04-2021, 03:21 PM

Ancestral Recall is also legal. It's because it's crap in 4CB, so we never bothered to ban it.

Not always crap, for instance for next round 2x trall, LED, emrakul, sounds like an ok deck.

alphastryk

02-04-2021, 04:59 PM

Not always crap, for instance for next round 2x trall, LED, emrakul, sounds like an ok deck.

Thats... actually pretty solid tech, using the round rule as just a way to get a free 5th card of Island.

Of course now we all know we need to play around the turn 1 Emrakul deck...

dte

02-04-2021, 05:38 PM

Of course now we all know we need to play around the turn 1 Emrakul deck...

Trall is actually on the banlist in the end.
But I think there might be a few deck to be cautious about :)

silkster

02-04-2021, 07:59 PM

Not always crap, for instance for next round 2x trall, LED, emrakul, sounds like an ok deck.

That's actually amazing and beats most of the things I was considering. Just like Dark Depths was going to smash most of what I had been planning for the previous round. :)

Wrath of Pie

02-04-2021, 09:06 PM

Not always crap, for instance for next round 2x trall, LED, emrakul, sounds like an ok deck.
It took me way too long to figure out how this worked.

FTW

02-04-2021, 11:19 PM

It took me way too long to figure out how this worked.

Me too. The biggest tech was when I realized Trall = Ancestral Recall.

dte

02-05-2021, 01:52 AM

Me too. The biggest tech was when I realized Trall = Ancestral Recall.

With the quote of Asthereal's message, I thought it was clear..

Serguei

02-05-2021, 01:54 AM

Dammit, my deck is illegal. Phyrexian dreadnaught is not a card :(

1. Asthereal (TO): Sandstone Needle, City of Traitors, Boldwyr Heavyweights, Goblin Settler
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Mountain, Goblin Lackey, Morophon, the Boundless, Karona, False God
3. jhhdk: Taiga, Orcish Lumberjack, Ramunap Excavator, Titania, Protector of Argoth
4. Wrath of Pie: Hickory Woodlot, Ruins of Trokair, Mayor of Avabruck, Windborn Muse
5. alphastryk: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Grasping Dunes, Dwarven Hold, Ogre Arsonist
6. H: Inkmoth Nexus, Cathedral of War, Quicksand, Maze of Ith
7. maxx!: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Hunted Horror, Fourth Bridge Prowler
8. FTW: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Maze of Ith, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Murderous Rider
9. dte: city of traitors, simian spirit guide, simian spirit guide, barbed shocker
10. Tylert: City of traitors, Simian spirit guide, Eldrazi Mimic, Phyrexian dreadnaught
11. Serguei: City of Traitors, Simian spirit guide, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Eldrazi Mimic
12. silkster: Swamp, Ruthless Sniper, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Bazaar of Baghdad
13. Reeplcheep: City of Traitors, Elvish Spirit Guide, Chancellor of the Tangle, Lodestone Golem

Every game I will play mimic T1, then dreadnought T1 with guide and stack the triggers so I have to sac mimic after getinng it to 12/12.Then I'll proceed to kill my opponent in 2 turns (Turn 3).
1. Asthereal: Can you kill me turn 3 or interact with our creatures? the answer is no. 6-0 --> 6
2. Goblinsmashmaster: Can you Kill me turn 3 or interact with our creatures? On the draw, you're exactly lethal on turn 3. 3-3 --> 9
3. jhhdk: Can you Kill me turn 3 or interact with our creatures? I guess no. 6-0 --> 15
4. Wrath of Pie: Can you Kill me turn 3 or interact with our creatures? No I can pay for the muse. 6-0 --> 21
5. Alphastryk: Can you Kill me turn 3 or interact with our creatures? I can pay for Tabernacle!! 6-0 --> 27
6. H: Can you Kill me turn 3 or interact with our creatures? Nope. And maze of Ith doesn't work. 6-0 --> 33.
7. maxx!: Can you Kill me turn 3 or interact with our creatures? Nope. I let the centaurs die and smash with dreadnought 6-0 --> 39.
8. FTW!: Can you Kill me turn 3 or interact with our creatures? Yes OTD I can only kill you turn 3 and you can kill my threat. 3-3 --> 42.
9. Dte: Can you Kill me turn 3 or interact with our creatures? Yes OTD, You're too fast for me. 3-3 --> 45.
10. Tylert: Me.
11. Serguei: mirror. 3-3 --> 48
12. silkster: Can you Kill me turn 3 or interact with our creatures? yes you can but in a meaningless way. 6-0 --> 54.
13. Reeplcheep: Can you Kill me turn 3 or interact with our creatures? yes, but it only means I can cast dreadnought on turn 2 and kill T4 instead of T3. You can't kill before T5 so I still win. 6-0 --> 60
.

Same for me just my deck is a legal one

total 60