4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

[dte]

4 Card Blind Season 13 : backbuild bannathon!

Season 13 is now finished, big congrats to BirdsOfParadise for winning this season, and nice job of symbi too!



4CB tournaments were very well organised by Asthereal for 12 seasons. Here is plenty (330 pages!) to read about it: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind

I will try to organise the thirteenth season, and not make too much of a mess of it.
This season, we play 8 rounds of Vintage backbuild Bannathon, doing our worse. Indeed, we get points by losing games! Yet, our matches are calculated as usual, each deck doing its best to win.
In doubt, consider everything is normal, except decks are swapped with each opponent before the match.

Banlist
The full list is presented in the second and third posts of this thread, accessible via my signature.

Deadline every Tuesday at 19h CEST (Central European Summer Time).

Sending in your deck
Here it is slightly different from previous rounds, as two more info need to be present: the goldfish turn (GT) or your deck (at which turn do you win against no interaction), and how do you beat the target deck.
You send your deck for the round via PM to the tournament organizer, which (for now) is me: dte.
Please send your deck as follows (enter relevant season number, round number, username):

Subject: 4CB S13R01 deck
(4CB so I know what it's about / S13R01 means Season 13 Round 1, please adjust accordingly)
username, decklist with tags, GT. Comma separated so I can paste it into excel.

dte, Black lotus, channel, Lich's Mirror, Pox, GT1
Legality: my deck is faster and not disrupted by the target deck, which has GT202: Leyline of Sanctity,noxious revival,Veldt,Helix Pinnacle

(I prefer to receive the cards in card tags, and in this way of presenting: {cards}cardname1{/cards}, {cards}cardname2{/cards}, {cards}cardname3{/cards}, {cards}cardname4{/cards}, but with [] instead of {}. If you send the deck this way, I can copy and paste quickly.

Never hesitate to send your deck much in advance!
You can always change it later on by sending me a new PM.


The tournament organizer will make calculations (or have Google Spreadsheet figure that stuff out) and keep track of standings below. Note: season points are always rounded to one decimal. You will find the Google Spreadsheet for season 13 here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nDiaVIAqBE43moQknP8nB8Lq7JDTunJ60bG8m4YrHA4/edit#gid=1710229930

Participation is entirely voluntary, and all you can win is bragging rights. We do this for fun. If you missed a round, or want to enter mid-season, no problem. You can (re-)enter in any round. All you missed was some fun.


Final standings for season 13:
1. BirdsOfParadise 31,1
2. Symbi 29
3. RoosterCocoa 24,5
4. Silkster 23,7
5. FTW 21,3
6. Reeplcheep 20,1
7. jfb1337 19,6
8. Wrath of Pie 19,5
9. dte (TO) 19,4
10. GoblinSmash 15,9
11. Dooey 12,9
12. FourDogsinaH 12,4
13. alphastryk 8,6
14. Asthereal 6,6
15. Raketenudo 2,9


Direct links to posts with the decks for each round in the 13th season:
- Decks and discussion for round 8: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33764-4CBS13-a-4-cards-blind-backbuild-bannathon-season&p=1102310&viewfull=1#post1102310
- Decks and discussion for round 7: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33764-4CBS13-a-4-cards-blind-backbuild-bannathon-season&p=1102166&viewfull=1#post1102166
- Decks and discussion for round 6: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33764-4CBS13-a-4-cards-blind-backbuild-bannathon-season&p=1101944&viewfull=1#post1101944
- Decks and discussion for round 5: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33764-4CBS13-a-4-cards-blind-backbuild-bannathon-season&p=1101799&viewfull=1#post1101799
- Decks and discussion for round 4: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33764-4CBS13-a-4-cards-blind-backbuild-bannathon-season&p=1101683&viewfull=1#post1101683
- Decks and discussion for round 3: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33764-4CBS13-a-4-cards-blind-backbuild-bannathon-season&p=1101561&viewfull=1#post1101561
- Decks and discussion for round 2: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33764-4CBS13-a-4-cards-blind-backbuild-bannathon-season&p=1101391&viewfull=1#post1101391
- Decks and discussion for round 1 : https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33764-4CBS13-a-4-cards-blind-backbuild-bannathon-season&p=1101209&viewfull=1#post1101209


HOW 4 CARD BLIND WORKS
All participants create a legal 4 card deck, and send it to the tournament organizer via PM before the deadline, but after the organizer has officially started the round.
After the deadline has expired, the tournament organizer posts all decks on the forum, and participants get to figure out who wins against who, and post results.
Every participant posts results for every opponent, so that everybody gets to cross-check their results and agree on the outcome. When in doubt, the community will help.
All participants play one game on the play and one on the draw against every other participant in that round. A win gets you 3 points, a draw is worth 1 point. Except in backbuild, where a win nets you 0, and a loss 3 points.
This means if you win on the play and score a draw when on the draw, you will score 3 + 1 = 4 points against that particular opponent (or 1 point in backbuild).
The tournament organizer will add all scores and create a scoring table for the round, which will show who did the best in that particular round.
We will try to play a round every week. Every round the participants send in a new deck, hoping to out-smart the others.
Note: The tournament organizer (me) also plays along. Before each round starts, he sends his own deck to himself via PM.
Afterwards, he posts on the forum that the round can start, and only then, other participants may send in their decks for the round.

You can read much more of it and see exemples here: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind
Otherwise, don't hesitate to ask a question, on this thread or via PM!


The games go as follows
- You start with all four cards from your deck in your opening hand, and play from there.
- You don't lose the game for having to draw a card when you can't, rest stays the same as in regular MtG, e.g. if a card ends up in your library, you will draw it next draw step.
- Random effects always have the effect that is most favorable to the opponent.
- Every player always plays optimally. If anyone finds a better line, that line is played.


Loops
4CB by its nature violates several ideas behind regular Magic. One of them is the idea that games should never get 'stuck'. In regular Magic you will eventually draw your library and lose, for instance. In 4CB we lose that failsafe, and since we play with only four cards, we get stuck all the time, for instance if both players have a Greenbelt Rampager in play, and attacking becomes pointless. Another way you can get stuck is if one player has an action they can perform every turn in order to prevent the opponent for doing anything, like tapping a land every turn with Rishadan Port. Technically, this would fall under the ruling of a "loop". These can occur across turns, and the regular Magic rules say you can't eternally perform a loop containing a voluntary action. Instead you have to choose a number. This doesn't fit with the main rule of 4CB that says every player always plays optimally. Because when you need to tap a land eternally to stop something from getting cast, there is no optimal number except infinite. Getting stuck is part of 4CB, so we don't worry about it too much, but we can't ignore the loop rule completely, because otherwise a player would be able to activate Nomads en-Kor infinitely just to force a draw.
So we will be using the following rule:
If a loop containing at least one optional action would be repeated indefinitely during a single turn, then an optimal number is determined for the loop to repeat, and after the loop has been repeated that number of times, it will stop.
If a loop containing at least one optional action would be repeated indefinitely across multiple turns, that loop may continue indefinitely, even if that would lead to a draw. So Time vault,voltaic key,plains,city of traitors can DD against any deck that present no win or interaction before T3.

[dte]

Present banlist:
Rainbow Vale
Lotus Petal
Forbidden Orchard
Heartless Summoning
Helix pinnacle
Sustaining Spirit
Wild Evocation
Test of Endurance
Aetherflux Reservoir
celestial convergence
rivalry
Naked singularity
City of Brass
Life of the Party
Flailing Soldier
Chancellor of the Tangle
Near-Death Experience
Wolfcaller's Howl
Flailing Ogre
Obsidian Charmaw
Impatience


And all the cards in the target decks.

[dte]

Opening of first round!


THE FIRST ROUND OF SEASON 13: VINTAGE BACKBUILD BANNATHON has started.

I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 1, so you can start sending me your decks.

DEADLINE: Tuesday the 16th of August at 19:00 Central European Summer Time.

PLEASE NOTE:
The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
Please send your deck as follows: Mountain, Plains, Forest, Shivan Gorge.
So with card tags around each card, and not above eachother, and with your Username and 4CB S13R01 in the topic.
Don't forget to keep an eye on the banned list. You'll find it in the second post of the thread, or in our Google Spreadsheet.

After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

Happy deckbuilding!

[alphastryk]

Thanks for organizing this season!

The google docs link appears to be broken for me

[dte]

Thanks for organizing this season!

The google docs link appears to be broken for me

Thanks!

That is because I did not make one yet, hence the "when I got one running". I kept the text stolen from Asthereal to have a placeholder once I got one :)
I intend to ask Asthereal how he does it rather than figuring it by myself, and thought it did not matter before the deadline of round 1.

[Asthereal]

Wooh!

I got a terrible deck for you all to crush.

Also: nice "DTB".
The decks should get progressively "better", so this looks to become an interesting season.
I think this might be more interesting than just 8 rounds, but we'll see. We can always adjust or expand.

[alphastryk]

Thanks!

That is because I did not make one yet, hence the "when I got one running". I kept the text stolen from Asthereal to have a placeholder once I got one :)
I intend to ask Asthereal how he does it rather than figuring it by myself, and thought it did not matter before the deadline of round 1.

That makes total sense, I just blindly clicked assuming it would work

[Asthereal]

That is because I did not make one yet, hence the "when I got one running". I kept the text stolen from Asthereal to have a placeholder once I got one :)
I intend to ask Asthereal how he does it rather than figuring it by myself, and thought it did not matter before the deadline of round 1.
Honestly, I usually just copy the old spreadsheet and delete all irrelevant stuff. You keep the table, banned list and one round. The rest can go.
In the table tab you want to keep the code in the middle bit, because someone else made that and I don't know how to do that. :wink:
For the rest you just copy a tab for a round, call it Round X, which should correspond with the top bar in the Table tab, and then make sure players are in the right order.
The rest mostly works by itself right now.

PS. Holy sh!t, the old thread got over 800.000 views! That's insane.

[jfb1337]

I was assuming the initial target deck was going to be a literal goldfish, so I have a few ideas that are in fact too slow to be legal.
Managed to adapt one to be fast enough to win.

Also, here's my joke idea, that was never going to be anywhere close to working; due to needing a 5th card that is also a conspiracy; along with arbitrarily many basic lands outside the game:
Aggressive mining, Battle of wits, Pull from eternity, Soldevi Digger, Sovereign's Realm

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Do I need lands?
Or is a deck of four goblin pikers legal?

[RoosterCocoa]

Do I need lands?
Or is a deck of four goblin pikers legal?

Welcome! And it's a bit buried in the first post, but for this round your deck needs to beat Leyline of Sanctity, Noxious Revival, Veldt, Helix Pinnacle both on the play and the draw.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Does playing optimally include perfect knowledge of my hand?
Like let's say my opponent has an unconditional counter spell and a conditional kill spell.
I play treacherous pit-dweller with a brand in hand. If my op knows about the brand they'll use the counter spell, but if they don't they'll use the kill spell to trigger the undying on Pit Dweller. So the optimal play here is dependant on my op knowing my deck.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Welcome! And it's a bit buried in the first post, but for this round your deck needs to beat Leyline of Sanctity, Noxious Revival, Veldt, Helix Pinnacle both on the play and the draw.

Thanks!

[jfb1337]

Does playing optimally include perfect knowledge of my hand?
Like let's say my opponent has an unconditional counter spell and a conditional kill spell.
I play treacherous pit-dweller with a brand in hand. If my op knows about the brand they'll use the counter spell, but if they don't they'll use the kill spell to trigger the undying on Pit Dweller. So the optimal play here is dependant on my op knowing my deck.

Yes, there is no hidden information, all information is public. Including hands, decklists, order of libraries, face-down cards like morph, even choices made during resolution of an effect; e.g. when resolving a Show and tell the non-active player knows what the active player put in.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Alright, deck away

[dte]

Welcome! And it's a bit buried in the first post, but for this round your deck needs to beat Leyline of Sanctity, Noxious Revival, Veldt, Helix Pinnacle both on the play and the draw.

It was indeed buried, I made it more visible and will change it for each round.

There are already seven submissions, and quite inventive decks!
Now I am a little bit less happy with my submission :/


PS. Holy sh!t, the old thread got over 800.000 views! That's insane.

Thanks fo the help!
And yes, quite insane, I think you can be quite proud of it :)

[jfb1337]

How are season points determined? Is it points divided by number of players?

[dte]

How are season points determined? Is it points divided by number of players?

Yes indeed. Or you can consider it the average score you got for the round.

[silkster]

There are already seven submissions, and quite inventive decks!
Now I am a little bit less happy with my submission :/
Wow, that's a lot of really early submissions, and with over three weeks to go!

I will need some time to think cause I don't even remember the last time I did a backbuild (the one round of it we did with Asthereal was the one round I missed). For a while I was even considering it in my head with the variant where you're still trying to win but there's a deck that you must 0-6 against.

Also, I for one welcome our new overlord! I wonder if having to make a deck so early will disrupt your reign, and perhaps Asthereal with time to think might rise to the top.

[jfb1337]

Does the dungeon mechanic work in 4CB?

On one hand, the dungeons are technically cards that get brought into the game from outside the game. On the other hand, they're always available in every game (and the physical dungeon cards act like tokens in that you don't need to have the real thing with you, just be able to represent its state).

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Does the dungeon mechanic work in 4CB?

On one hand, the dungeons are technically cards that get brought into the game from outside the game. On the other hand, they're always available in every game (and the physical dungeon cards act like tokens in that you don't need to have the real thing with you, just be able to represent its state).

Dungeons aren't cards

[Asthereal]

Also, for one welcome our new overlord! I wonder if having to make a deck do early will disrupt your reign, and perhaps Asthereal with time to think might rise to the top.
To be fair, if I wanted, I could just spend a full night analysing the meta and tweaking my deck, and open the round a day later.
In later seasons I didn't really play to my full strength, but that was more because of other things in life taking up time.

But it's a disadvantage to a point, as you can't use a great idea that comes up right before the deadline. That happened to me a few times.

[jfb1337]

Dungeons aren't cards
The rules refer to them as cards


701.46a If a player is instructed to venture into the dungeon while they don’t own a dungeon card in
the command zone, they choose a dungeon card they own from outside the game and put it into
the command zone. They put their venture marker on the topmost room. See rule 309,
“Dungeons.”

[dte]

The dungeon mechanic works.

We had decks with it (alluren/lich combo), and no one batted an eye about it.

[alphastryk]

..
There are already seven submissions, and quite inventive decks!
Now I am a little bit less happy with my submission :/
...

I suspect having to create a deck and stick with it from the beginning is a sizable disadvantage - I often came up with my best decks late in the week after iterating through several other ideas.

[Reeplcheep]

Some questions about how we handle mistakes:

Replacing banned cards with basics may lead to the deck no longer beating any of the target decks. Simple option: in that case they get 0 season points. Fun solution: replace banned cards with black lotus if a mana producer and Retrofitter foundry otherwise instead of a basic.

There is also the question if people incorrectly calculate the matchup vs the target deck. One of my drafts for this round actually was DD instead of WW before I caught it.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Some questions about how we handle mistakes:

Replacing banned cards with basics may lead to the deck no longer beating any of the target decks. Simple option: in that case they get 0 season points. Fun solution: replace banned cards with black lotus if a mana producer and Retrofitter foundry otherwise instead of a basic.

There is also the question if people incorrectly calculate the matchup vs the target deck. One of my drafts for this round actually was DD instead of WW before I caught it.

Lotus Field (4 Free)
Or Memnite

[dte]

I proposed to be attributed randomly a legal deck from previous round?

Foundry is sure to WW vs everything.

[Reeplcheep]

How about the most winning legal deck from the prior round? “Rolling” the most losing non-banned deck might leave bad tastes in people’s mouths as that is the default best choice.

[dte]

How about the most winning legal deck from the prior round? “Rolling” the most losing non-banned deck might leave bad tastes in people’s mouths as that is the default best choice.

That would require to compute them all.
Getting at best by random the default choice is ok, no?

[Reeplcheep]

That would require to compute them all.
Getting at best by random the default choice is ok, no?

Most winning as in the one that got the least points; furthest from being banned.

[dte]

Most winning as in the one that got the least points; furthest from being banned.

That doesn't mean legal :)
Very likely, but not necessarily. Additionally, it would make it useful to try to lose against this deck that would be known beforehand, as it is likely to be played.

[jfb1337]

How important is it to get the correct goldfish turn? As I have a couple deck ideas that may involve some complex lines of play.

[alphastryk]

How important is it to get the correct goldfish turn? As I have a couple deck ideas that may involve some complex lines of play.

I suspect fairly important as it may be the primary way to determine matchup winners

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I suspect fairly important as it may be the primary way to determine matchup winners

Is the goldfish turn the number of turns to beat the target deck or in general?
Because I submitted my deck based on the target.

[alphastryk]

Is the goldfish turn the number of turns to beat the target deck or in general?
Because I submitted my deck based on the target.

I believe it's to beat a literal goldfish, so in general for GT but you also need to describe how you beat the target deck.

[FTW]

To reduce workload on the organizer, we should all do the math for our own decks to calculate both the goldfish turn (GT) and how you beat the target deck (if racing, then what turn). There may be some mistakes that get corrected later, but it's less work to figure out the results if most GTs are done in advance.

To handle mistakes with banned cards, we should also do something that minimizes work on the organizer. If we select a random deck from the last round, does there have to be deck validation to make sure it WW against the target deck?

[alphastryk]

The simplest answer if your deck is either banned or fails to beat the target deck is to eliminate your entry for that round. Its no fun for the person making the mistake but all the other answers add a lot of complexity for this season.

[jfb1337]

The results from the previous round would determine which decks have a WW record vs a target deck and thus are eligible for resubmission
You could get into a situation where there are no available decks to choose from however; such as if every WW deck happened to contain a card that got banned that round.

[BirdsOfParadise]

Hey, I think I could manage to win against everyone this time!

Edit: I'll submit something at least for the first round. Since this kind of thing is a lot of work for the organizer, I'd support illegal decks simply getting 0 points. Of course dte may choose to be more lenient.

[Asthereal]

Some questions about how we handle mistakes:

Replacing banned cards with basics may lead to the deck no longer beating any of the target decks. Simple option: in that case they get 0 season points. Fun solution: replace banned cards with black lotus if a mana producer and Retrofitter foundry otherwise instead of a basic.

There is also the question if people incorrectly calculate the matchup vs the target deck. One of my drafts for this round actually was DD instead of WW before I caught it.
These are good questions.

Just randomly replacing the banned card with a basic could indeed run into your deck not beating the sample deck anymore.
Perhaps we could replace a mana card with a basic and a non-mana card with an always legal Memnite.
If the deck still can't beat the sample deck, I think there's no other solution than to lose all games in the round (or win, in this case).

If we go for random results, that might improve the score for the player in question, so I'd definitely be against that.

And what to do when a player sends in a deck that doesn't WW against the sample deck... yeah there's no real solution there that I can think of.
This season will require us to play a bit sharper than usual, and I don't see a good and fair way to mitigate mistakes here.

But those are just my thoughts. And I'm not in charge anymore. :smile:

[silkster]

Oh man, it's a good thing I decided to read through the first post carefully. I actually thought I had read through the whole thing, so I'm not even sure why I looked at it again, but I totally thought I could just play Veldt + Helix Pinnacle + Lotus Petal. I thought this round would be kind of silly. I understand much better now why this deck was chosen.

In looking for a slow clock, I found a completely different deck that also has GT 202, which unfortunately doesn't work cause it only goes WL against the base deck.

For illegal entries, I think the easiest thing is just not to count them. The format is complicated enough, and I don't think adding extra complications is good, even if they're behind the scenes, so to speak. It would also be really sad for the legal entries that metagame successfully against what people are submitting but randomly lose points to unintentional submissions.

Lastly, I assume that you're assuming that the top three decks of each round will all be banned, which is certainly likely but not guaranteed. With a couple draws and a very even distribution of points, it's possible for no one to score >3. I guess you probably would have just sought concensus after it happened and I'm sure no one would argue with still banning the top 3 decks, but we might write it into the rules.

Also also, Channel + Lich's Mirror is quite the combo!

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Adding a memnite is the same as 0 points IMO so the only reason to do it is if two or more decks are illegal.

[Asthereal]

Adding a memnite is the same as 0 points IMO so the only reason to do it is if two or more decks are illegal.
From round 5 onwards, I see Memnite becoming not that terrible anymore.
But we can also just decide on zero points for an illegal deck instead. That's easier for sure.

[alphastryk]

From round 5 onwards, I see Memnite becoming not that terrible anymore.
But we can also just decide on zero points for an illegal deck instead. That's easier for sure.

My vote would be that illegal entries just don't count - we don't score them at all. That's the cleanest answer that works for the whole season no matter what.

[silkster]

I was thinking a little about how random effects work this season, and also about how we do our write-ups. I think the easiest way to handle everything is for players to trade decks, and then matches okay out normally and you're now trying to win. So WW is good and gives 6 points, and it's clear how random effects work. This isn't a big deal, but I'm really excited for this season and am eager to discuss anything about it except for the super awesome tech that I'm saving for later in the season.

I wonder if we should submit our decks after our name and with our goldfish turn all in one line to make copy paste as easy as possible. Like:

Silkster: Forest, Forest, Forest, Leatherback Baloth, GT: 8

As far as illegal submissions go, I'm still on the dq side, mostly for simplicity. I do think that writing out how your deck beats the target deck will go a long way to catching illegal entries. I haven't gotten as far as writing out my submission, but in brainstorming, I've gotten really excited about two decks whose illegality I caught while trying to explain the lines in detail.

[FTW]

Zero points seems OK.

It would be hard to come up with a fair solution otherwise. Memnite may work to replace 1 banned card. But what if there are no banned cards and the deck just doesn't beat the target deck? What if 4xMemnite can't beat the target deck? What if Memnite gets banned from another winning deck? It gets complicated. Hopefully having to calculate the Goldfish Turn and beating the target deck should help prevent illegal submissions.

[silkster]

It occurred to me today that through seasons of deviant legacy, pauper, peasant, creatures only, and even creatureless, GoblinSmashmaster was always able to smash with goblins. But this backbuild season will be a serious challenge to that streak, at least as far as I can foresee.

[silkster]

@Asthereal @alphastryk

I was thinking about the spreadsheet that I would use around the new year for Season 14, and I noticed that Round 14 of the previous spreadsheet was broken. I wanted to understand why it was broken and after opening a dozen tabs to search "google sheets vlookup", "google sheets indirect", I realized that it was because mtgthesource had gone down that week and some people held a short discussion of this on the sheet. Unfortunately, they held that discussion in the wrong column! So the smart part of the sheet that tried to understand how many players were in that round (so that it would know which column holds the round scores) got confused. It thought that each entry was another player, so it looked 4 columns later, but instead of round scores it found card number 4.

I still don't perfectly understand the need for all the quotes in part of the formula that says "'"&R$1&"'!$B$2:$Z$19", but I did discover that I could instead use R$1&"!"&"$B$2:$Z$19". If anyone knows how the first bolded string works, I'm very curious.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

@Asthereal @alphastryk

I was thinking about the spreadsheet that I would use around the new year for Season 14, and I noticed that Round 14 of the previous spreadsheet was broken. I wanted to understand why it was broken and after opening a dozen tabs to search "google sheets vlookup", "google sheets indirect", I realized that it was because mtgthesource had gone down that week and some people held a short discussion of this on the sheet. Unfortunately, they held that discussion in the wrong column! So the smart part of the sheet that tried to understand how many players were in that round (so that it would know which column holds the round scores) got confused. It thought that each entry was another player, so it looked 4 columns later, but instead of round scores it found card number 4.

I still don't perfectly understand the need for all the quotes in part of the formula that says "'"&R$1&"'!$B$2:$Z$19", but I did discover that I could instead use R$1&"!"&"$B$2:$Z$19". If anyone knows how the first bolded string works, I'm very curious.


"'"&R$1&"'!$B$2:$Z$19"

R$1&"!"&"$B$2:$Z$19"
The first formula puts a single quote around the value in R1 but you should post the whole formula (in a code block) if you want real answers. And a link to the sheet.
So the result the first is: 'R1'!B2:Z19
and the second is R1!B2:Z19

[dte]

I was thinking a little about how random effects work this season, and also about how we do our write-ups. I think the easiest way to handle everything is for players to trade decks, and then matches okay out normally and you're now trying to win. So WW is good and gives 6 points, and it's clear how random effects work. This isn't a big deal, but I'm really excited for this season and am eager to discuss anything about it except for the super awesome tech that I'm saving for later in the season.

I wonder if we should submit our decks after our name and with our goldfish turn all in one line to make copy paste as easy as possible. Like:

Silkster: Forest, Forest, Forest, Leatherback Baloth, GT: 8


both good ideas, and added to the initial post.



To be fair, if I wanted, I could just spend a full night analysing the meta and tweaking my deck, and open the round a day later.
In later seasons I didn't really play to my full strength, but that was more because of other things in life taking up time.

But it's a disadvantage to a point, as you can't use a great idea that comes up right before the deadline. That happened to me a few times.

I definitely could see the first half of it: ideas come, and no way to change my submission, while I used the message to Asthereal to change decks a few times before.




Otherwise, on illegal entries, I see that there is a strong consensus for 0 points rather than a replacement system. So be it, and I removed the replacement from the initial post.
I would still propose that if I see a small change that could make the deck legal, I would do so (eg. badlands submitted but banned, it is replaced with a fastland; or replacing a land that EtB tapped to one that doesn't if that accelerate the deck enough to beat the target deck). Asthereal has done that when there were obvious misspelling.



Edit: and on the excel spreadsheet: I am sure I might be able to figure it out, but there seem to be a lot of more able users here, and in my experience delegating is often a good option.
Is there any volunteer to take care of the sheet?

[silkster]

I created a google sheet for the season here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nDiaVIAqBE43moQknP8nB8Lq7JDTunJ60bG8m4YrHA4/edit?usp=sharing

The code I was referencing earlier is the code used in the Table sheet of the google sheet above (which I copied from the previous season).

You can see the code there, or here:

=IFERROR(ROUND(VLOOKUP($B2; INDIRECT("'"&E$1&"'!$B$2:$Z$19"); COUNTUNIQUE(INDIRECT("'"&E$1&"'!$B$2:$B$19"))+4;FALSE);1); 0)

[alphastryk]

I created a google sheet for the season here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nDiaVIAqBE43moQknP8nB8Lq7JDTunJ60bG8m4YrHA4/edit?usp=sharing

The code I was referencing earlier is the code used in the Table sheet of the google sheet above (which I copied from the previous season).

You can see the code there, or here:

=IFERROR(ROUND(VLOOKUP($B2; INDIRECT("'"&E$1&"'!$B$2:$Z$19"); COUNTUNIQUE(INDIRECT("'"&E$1&"'!$B$2:$B$19"))+4;FALSE);1); 0)

There's a lot to unpack there, the part I added and fully understand is the
IFERROR(<existing expression>; 0) piece which says "if the lookup failed inside <existing expression>, meaning the username we're looking for did not participate this round, instead of showing an error put a value of 0 for their score.

[silkster]

There's a lot to unpack there, the part I added and fully understand is the
IFERROR(<existing expression>; 0) piece which says "if the lookup failed inside <existing expression>, meaning the username we're looking for did not participate this round, instead of showing an error put a value of 0 for their score.

I looked up IFERROR, VLOOKUP, INDIRECT, and COUNTUNIQUE, and I'm good with all of those. The only thing that's tripping me up is the string manipulation part. It might be because I can't figure out what single quotation marks do.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I added a Fake entrant and fixed your sheet. If you like it, you should be able to drag the formatting

[silkster]

I added a Fake entrant and fixed your sheet. If you like it, you should be able to drag the formatting

I see that you manually changed the reference under Round 1 to read column 13 of Round 1. The code that was already there was fine when the Round 1 sheet is filled out. It counts the number of entrants, then adds 4, and indexes there (4 because Round Score is the 4th non-match score column, name being the first, total being second, a grey blank being the third, and round score being the fourth).

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

When in doubt, hard code it out

[Asthereal]

Thanks for the help, guys. I didn't create the code in the spreadsheets and understand almost nothing about it.

It worked, and I was happy with it, but I had no idea what happened when it broke.
Good to know it was because of our remarks underneath the table.
To solve this, perhaps we should add a bit in the bannings tab, to the right. There's plenty of space there, and no code to interfere with.
I've added a column in the sheet for season 12 as an example. We could also add a full tab, but we already have a lot of tabs, so I think this is better.

[dte]

Thank you very much for the help!
I hope I won't mess it up when I add columns and entries, but I tried to tinker and it seems to work :)

I added a few columns, as we are already 11 and missing a few regulars (silkster, maxx!, GoblinSmashmaster (illegal entry), Phasmoid, and maybe H and Wrath of Pie). And still a week to go!

[alphastryk]

When in doubt, hard code it out

As a senior software developer, this hurt to read :laugh:

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

As a senior software developer, this hurt to read :laugh:

As a senior software developer, where do you think I internalized it?

[alphastryk]

As a senior software developer, where do you think I internalized it?

Fair enough!

[jfb1337]

How does Cryptic Spires work? Do you declare what colours it uses during deck submission, or can it change per match / per game?

[dte]

You chose when you submit the deck. It is a classic EtB tapped dual.

[dte]

Deadline in 24h, and still missing a few regulars: silkster, maxx!, GoblinSmashmaster (illegal entry), Phasmoid, and maybe H.

Don't miss out!

[Asthereal]

Small thing: I'll be on holiday at the deadline, and might not be able to post scores (or send a new deck before the deadline for round 2).
I'll try to get some time in to check and post from wherever we are in Italy at that moment, but don't wait for me if I end up not posting.

[dte]

Small thing: I'll be on holiday at the deadline, and might not be able to post scores (or send a new deck before the deadline for round 2).
I'll try to get some time in to check and post from wherever we are in Italy at that moment, but don't wait for me if I end up not posting.

We'll calculate your scores for R1, no problem!
And I'll send you a deck by MP that is extremely likely to be one of the round 2 DtB, so you can prepare and send me something before going into holidays.


Also, I do not think I would ban lands that do not have special effects except making mana. So storelands will always be available.


And as I do not want the following to be buried:


Deadline in 24h, and still missing a few regulars: silkster, maxx!, GoblinSmashmaster (illegal entry), Phasmoid, and maybe H.

[silkster]

I'll submit mine soon. A couple week ago I was sure I knew what I was going to submit, but the next day I found a deck more. Then I found a deck I thought I would like more, but it turns out that I don't. So I saved myself from giving you all the tech that you've probably already thought of, but now at least you don't know that I know it. :tongue:

Edit: submitted.

Also, not banning storage lands is a very interesting and unexpected proposition. There are many other lands that "only make mana" in awkward ways, like Mana Confluence, Gemstone Mine, and the already-banned Veldt. It feels really difficult to draw a sharp line. My vote would be to let anything that isn't a basic land get banned, in part to keep things simple and in part to see more turnover.

[alphastryk]

I also was expecting any nonbasic to get banned, feels hard to determine what counts as "only makes mana"

[dte]

Veldt would be unban.
Mana confluence has many twins (city of brass, but also things like karplusean forest) and would be unbannable.

I would only ban lands with unique effects, eg tabernacle or dark depths. If even with two lands you cannot emulate something similar, then ban.

Otherwise, we are soon playing with 3 drops at most and/or are restricted on colours.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Seems a little late to change the rules.

[dte]

Seems a little late to change the rules.

In many seasons, we had adjustments (exact rules, cards banned, etc..).
Here the only difference would have been veldt banned for one round.

[RoosterCocoa]

What if only storage lands were immune from bans, aside from basics? It would leave strategies that require large amounts of mana on the table for the whole season, and there is enough nonland color filtering that I don't think that playing multiple colors would be a problem if someone really wanted to.

[silkster]

What if only storage lands were immune from bans, aside from basics? It would leave strategies that require large amounts of mana on the table for the whole season, and there is enough nonland color filtering that I don't think that playing multiple colors would be a problem if someone really wanted to.

I guess the concern is that 3 or 4 storage lands get banned each round and by round 6 we're out of them, or perhaps more troubling is the round before they're all banned if only one is left and that round has no diversity? People were worried that we'd run out of storage lands in the last two seasons but they lasted through 15-round seasons. Perhaps I'm overestimating the alternatives here. I'm curious what later rounds would look like without storage lands. If we do protect some lands from bans, I'd be in favour of protecting only the storage lands.

[dte]

I guess the concern is that 3 or 4 storage lands get banned each round and by round 6 we're out of them, or perhaps more troubling is the round before they're all banned if only one is left and that round has no diversity? People were worried that we'd run out of storage lands in the last two seasons but they lasted through 15-round seasons. Perhaps I'm overestimating the alternatives here. I'm curious what later rounds would look like without storage lands. If we do protect some lands from bans, I'd be in favour of protecting only the storage lands.

The goal of banning is strategic renewal.
My go would be to ban only the cards that were defining a strategy, so that said strategy cannot be reused.
For instance, from the sample deck, it could be the helix only.
If a land is part of the strategy, then we ban it too.

The rest feels a bit like removing options, while complicating deck design / preventing anyone to "hold the banlist in their head"?

And still missing maxx!, GoblinSmashmaster (illegal entry), Phasmoid, and maybe H.

I will post all decklist at 19h (in 8h).

[Reeplcheep]

Isn’t the whole point to have the power level increase? Letting the moxen get banned last round let the meta change.

[alphastryk]

Isn’t the whole point to have the power level increase? Letting the moxen get banned last round let the meta change.

I definitely thought that was part of the idea where it changes the meta continually, although the changing target decks will do that as well.

[dte]

The moxen are basically allowing to ignore the land rule, so that is a bit apart.

We would still ban the cards that led to decks that score >3, just not all cards.
A bit like the dci is doing, just much faster.

Regarding power level, I couldn't care less whether it increases or not, I thought the point of banning was to foster strategic renewal and strategic diversity.

[BirdsOfParadise]

I submitted!

If I were the boss, I’d ban anything, maybe even including basic lands. There are plenty of Magic cards. I’m not the boss, though.

Speaking of which, thanks for doing the work of organizing (and being the boss), dte.

[jfb1337]

If the concern is that we could run out of storage lands which might stifle options, then maybe we can just have the storage lands ban-immune and allow everything else to be banned.

[alphastryk]

Are we really all that likely to run totally out of storage lands? There's at least 16 of them off the top of my head plus things like the Mana Batteries

[dte]

ouppsss!

I modified the wrong post :/
I put back the most important, the lists...

1 dte (TO) mana vault , shivan gorge , hallowed ground , treasure map GT 189
2 Asthereal City of Brass , Dreadship Reef , Aura Flux , Teferi's Imp GT c. 45
3 alphastryk Land Cap, Mage-Ring Network, Diamond Kaleidoscope , Epic Struggle GT 189* --> overestimated, more in the 130s?
4 Dooey Roiling Vortex, Rainbow Vale, Rainbow Vale , One with Nothing GT 22
5 FourDogsinaHorseSuit Mercadian Bazaar , Aura Thief , Through The Breach , Arc Blade GT 54
6 jfb1337 Leechridden swamp , Subteranian Hangar , Phyrexian Arena , Nefarious Lich GT 48
7 Reeplcheep Detection Tower , Dreadship Reef , Copy Enchantment , Covetous Urge GT NA
8 FTW Fountain of Cho , Sustaining Spirit , Green Scarab, Empyrial Armor GT 447
9 RoosterCocoa Rainbow Vale , Rainbow Vale , Flailing Soldier , Ivory Mask GT 11
10 Raketenudo Depths of Desire , Mnemonic Wall , Bolas's Citadel , Sand Silos GT 190
11 Wrath of Pie Forbidden Orchard , Flailing Soldier, Archangel's Light , Blinkmoth Infusion GT 11
12 Symbi Land Cap, Dreadship Reef, Blessed Wine , Bond of Agony GT 44
13 Silkster Timberland Ruins, Timberland Ruins , Heartless Summoning , Flailing Ogre GT 14
14 BirdsOfParadise Flailing Soldier , Lotus Petal , Phage the Untouchable , Phage the Untouchable GT 11

[dte]

1 dte (TO) mana vault , shivan gorge , hallowed ground , treasure map GT 189
Me, playing in between two of the popular strategies: hurting myself (not enough), and late GT. Turn 14, I untap vault at 8 HP, with 0 treasures. Then I gain 1 treasure every 4 turns, and I need 40 of them, then 20 turns pinging.

2 Asthereal City of Brass , Dreadship Reef , Aura Flux , Teferi's Imp GT c. 45
6-0, Imp aggro is serious aggro!
6

3 alphastryk Land Cap, Mage-Ring Network, Diamond Kaleidoscope , Epic Struggle GT 189* --> overestimated, more in the 130s?
6-0, you are too fast.
12

4 Dooey Roiling Vortex, Rainbow Vale, Rainbow Vale , One with Nothing GT 22
2-2. If anyone move, they lose.
14

5 FourDogsinaHorseSuit Mercadian Bazaar , Aura Thief , Through The Breach , Arc Blade GT 54
6-0. You can even destroy hallowed grounds! And arc blade is pretty strong
20

6 jfb1337 Leechridden swamp , Subteranian Hangar , Phyrexian Arena , Nefarious Lich GT 48
0-6. The mirror of self hurt and pingerlands!
But you lose immediately if I ping you once. Here it bites me that I chose shivan gorge.
20

7 Reeplcheep Detection Tower , Dreadship Reef , Copy Enchantment , Covetous Urge GT NA
0-6. I actually play my hand too fast.
20

8 FTW Fountain of Cho , Sustaining Spirit , Green Scarab, Empyrial Armor GT 447
6-0. If I tap vault, you can deal me 8 damages faster than I deal you 20.
26

9 RoosterCocoa Rainbow Vale , Rainbow Vale , Flailing Soldier , Ivory Mask GT 11
2-2. First one that moves loses (me by my own vault, you because if I get valley I do not need vault), so we stare.
28

10 Raketenudo Depths of Desire , Mnemonic Wall , Bolas's Citadel , Sand Silos GT 190
6-0. Me getting below 10 makes you much faster!
34

11 Wrath of Pie Forbidden Orchard , Flailing Soldier, Archangel's Light , Blinkmoth Infusion GT 11
2-2. Stare again.
30

12 Symbi Land Cap, Dreadship Reef, Blessed Wine , Bond of Agony GT 44
6-0. Blessed wine is a very strong card here!
36

13 Silkster Timberland Ruins, Timberland Ruins , Heartless Summoning , Flailing Ogre GT 14
2-2, staring contest with the flaying dudes.
38

14 BirdsOfParadise Flailing Soldier , Lotus Petal , Phage the Untouchable , Phage the Untouchable GT 11
2-2, staring contest again
40

Edit: 38, I WW vs Silkster at 1 life. 38 is below the banning threshold :/

[jfb1337]

Didn't you receive my updated submission that replaced Phyrexian arena for Dawn of the dead?

[dte]

Didn't you receive my updated submission that replaced Phyrexian arena for Dawn of the dead?

I did, my apologies!
I updated my post.

[Reeplcheep]

7 Reeplcheep Detection Tower , Dreadship Reef , Copy Enchantment , Covetous Urge GT NA
I wanted to design a deck that couldn’t beat a goldfish. I started with the OG word of command but then realized that drew to floating white. I will lose unless you have a threat you can’t answer that you can’t cast before t6.

1 dte (TO) mana vault , shivan gorge , hallowed ground , treasure map GT 189
You play out your hand too fast. LL 6-0

2 Asthereal City of Brass , Dreadship Reef , Aura Flux , Teferi's Imp GT c. 45
You can play your threat before urge. LL 6-0

3 alphastryk Land Cap, Mage-Ring Network, Diamond Kaleidoscope , Epic Struggle GT 189* --> overestimated, more in the 130s?
Combos unfortunately keep a card in hand past t5. DD 2-2

4 Dooey Roiling Vortex, Rainbow Vale, Rainbow Vale , One with Nothing GT 22
As soon as you cast roiling vortex you give me the mana to cast copy enchantment and win. To prevent that you cast one with nothing for the draw. Should have ran ornithopter. DD 2-2

5 FourDogsinaHorseSuit Mercadian Bazaar , Aura Thief , Through The Breach , Arc Blade GT 54
You can suspend arc blade under urge. LL 6-0

6 jfb1337 Leechridden swamp , Subteranian Hangar , Phyrexian Arena , Nefarious Lich GT 48
You play lich, I copy it exile dead and we stare. DD 2-2

8 FTW Fountain of Cho , Sustaining Spirit , Green Scarab, Empyrial Armor GT 447
Another combo unfortunately. I steal spirit but I can’t do anything with it. DD 2-2

9 RoosterCocoa Rainbow Vale , Rainbow Vale , Flailing Soldier , Ivory Mask GT 11
2 permanent mana sources is too strong. DD 2-2

10 Raketenudo Depths of Desire , Mnemonic Wall , Bolas's Citadel , Sand Silos GT 190
You have a slow threat you can’t answer. DD 2-2

11 Wrath of Pie Forbidden Orchard , Flailing Soldier, Archangel's Light , Blinkmoth Infusion GT 11
Doesn’t this lose to the target deck?
My mana advantage bites me again. WW 0-6

12 Symbi Land Cap, Dreadship Reef, Blessed Wine , Bond of Agony GT 44
Another combo. DD 2-2

13 Silkster Timberland Ruins, Timberland Ruins , Heartless Summoning , Flailing Ogre GT 14
2 permanent mana sources is too strong. DD 2-2

14 BirdsOfParadise Flailing Soldier , Lotus Petal , Phage the Untouchable , Phage the Untouchable GT 11
Hilariously phage is covetous urge proof. 2 permanent mana sources is too strong again. DD 2-2

I would rather ban all non basics for unambiguity. Is urborg, tomb of yawgmoth a mana source or a spell? No wins but a ton of draws. The flailing creatures were very strong into depletion lands.

6L 18D 2W for 36/78
Wop is given a round loss?

[dte]

No ambiguity between mana source, spell, etc. : any card can be banned. Land or not. It is more about not banning all 4 cards of a deck. I just propose that we try?

And WoP's deck is legal, he is maybe even the winner of the round?

[jfb1337]

6 jfb1337 Leechridden swamp , Subterranean Hangar , Dawn of the dead , Nefarious Lich GT 48
Going for a ping+self-damage strat, that's incredibly fragile to a single point of damage or life gain. two points of damage or life gain.


1 dte (TO) mana vault , shivan gorge , hallowed ground , treasure map GT 189
Once you're able to hold up a shivan gorge activation, I can't win. LL 6-0.

2 Asthereal City of Brass , Dreadship Reef , Aura Flux , Teferi's Imp GT c. 45
Two hits from imp means I can't win. LL 6-0.

3 alphastryk Land Cap, Mage-Ring Network, Diamond Kaleidoscope , Epic Struggle GT 189* --> overestimated, more in the 130s?
Neither of us interact, and I'm faster. WW 0-6.

4 Dooey Roiling Vortex, Rainbow Vale, Rainbow Vale , One with Nothing GT 22
If you play vortex, I ping you once you're at 2. If I play my stuff to start pinging you, you play vortex and kill immediately me due to my lich. DD 2-2.

5 FourDogsinaHorseSuit Mercadian Bazaar , Aura Thief , Through The Breach , Arc Blade GT 54
One hit from arc blade and I can't win. LL 6-0.

7 Reeplcheep Detection Tower , Dreadship Reef , Copy Enchantment , Covetous Urge GT NA
You can take one of my things and I can't win, but neither can you. DD 2-2.

8 FTW Fountain of Cho , Sustaining Spirit , Green Scarab, Empyrial Armor GT 447
If I play my stuff, you can use 7 mana to get in one hit and kill me; so I don't play my stuff and you win. LL 6-0.

9 RoosterCocoa Rainbow Vale , Rainbow Vale , Flailing Soldier , Ivory Mask GT 11
- When I'm OTD, you play the soldier T1. I get the vale but can't kill it, as my lands enter tapped. T2 you attack for 2, I can shrink it but you can grow it. After taking 2 I can't win. I do eventually kill the soilder so you can't win either.
- When I'm OTP:
-- If I play hangar first, you play the soldier T1, and as above I can't kill it and take 2.
-- If I play leechridden swamp first, you play a land T1, then T2 I play the hangar, you play soldier, then I have 2 mana available with vale+swamp. T3 you attack, I can shrink it while you grow it, and I take 1. I also put 1 counter on the hangar. Then when i untap I have 3 mana and can kill the soildier, and as Silkster points out I can still win from there.
Thus, WD 1-4.


10 Raketenudo Depths of Desire , Mnemonic Wall , Bolas's Citadel , Sand Silos GT 190
You only need to deal 10 damage to win, making you're GT around 80-90, but I'm still too fast. WW 0-6.

11 Wrath of Pie Forbidden Orchard , Flailing Soldier, Archangel's Light , Blinkmoth Infusion GT 11
If you play the soldier, I can eventually kill it while keeping the 1/1, then win with that; whereas if you never play it then I win the normal way while holding up enough mana to kill it. WW 0-6.

12 Symbi Land Cap, Dreadship Reef, Blessed Wine , Bond of Agony GT 44
You play blessed wine, but as Silkster points out I can still win through that. WW 6-0.

13 Silkster Timberland Ruins, Timberland Ruins , Heartless Summoning , Flailing Ogre GT 14
You're slow enough to get out your ogre that I always have enough mana to kill it. WW 0-6.

14 BirdsOfParadise Flailing Soldier , Lotus Petal , Phage the Untouchable , Phage the Untouchable GT 11
You can always get at least one hit in with soldier before I can kill it, leaving me unable to win. DD 2-2.

Total: 8L, 7D, 11W = 31 points

Edit: I actually beat WoP both OTP and OTD.
Edit 2: Silkster points out that my deck is actually less fragile than I thought.

[Reeplcheep]

No ambiguity between mana source, spell, etc. : any card can be banned. Land or not. It is more about not banning all 4 cards of a deck. I just propose that we try?

And WoP's deck is legal, he is maybe even the winner of the round?

You are the TO so I’ll defer to you.

Maybe I am missing something:

T1 WoP orchard, soldier.
T1 Goldfish, Forest
T2 Wop declares soldier as an attacker. Goldfish uses soldiers ability. If wop doesn’t use the soldier’s ability, goldfish block the 1/1 with 1/1 spirit. If WoP does use the ability, goldfish blocks the 2/2 with 2 1/1s
Leyline ooof

Jfb should use my above logic to beat WoP even OTD

[dte]

WoP wins because veldt untap only other turn, and that he can wait that it is needed to boost soldier (ie after block).
The sample deck can chose not to reveal leyline.
I agree this one wasn't obvious at all ;)

[silkster]

1 dte (TO) mana vault , shivan gorge , hallowed ground , treasure map GT 189, WW (see below*)
2 Asthereal City of Brass , Dreadship Reef , Aura Flux , Teferi's Imp GT c. 45, WW
3 alphastryk Land Cap, Mage-Ring Network, Diamond Kaleidoscope , Epic Struggle GT 189* --> overestimated, more in the 130s? WW
4 Dooey Roiling Vortex, Rainbow Vale, Rainbow Vale , One with Nothing GT 22
If cast Vortex, I lose. But I can kill your Ogre. DD
5 FourDogsinaHorseSuit Mercadian Bazaar , Aura Thief , Through The Breach , Arc Blade GT 54, WW
6 jfb1337 Leechridden swamp , Subterranean Hangar , Dawn of the dead , Nefarious Lich GT 48, WW
7 Reeplcheep Detection Tower , Dreadship Reef , Copy Enchantment , Covetous Urge GT NA,
I saw the lands and assumed this was WW for me, but on closer inspection... This is quite the masterpiece! I had a deck that similarly couldn't beat a goldfish, but one of the cards could also be used defensively, so it got too many draws. DD
I can get the Ogre from your graveyard or from your hand, and you can never make 3 mana to kill it. WW
8 FTW Fountain of Cho , Sustaining Spirit , Green Scarab, Empyrial Armor GT 447 WW
I had Green Scarab in my gauntlet too. I didn't have Empyrial Armor + Sustaining Spirit though.
9 RoosterCocoa Rainbow Vale , Rainbow Vale , Flailing Soldier , Ivory Mask GT 11
I thought this was illegal at first glance, but the two Vale's kind of cancel each other out, I guess? Ah, but only because Veldt is slow to untap. Very interesting. I think your Ogre is more aggressive, but I can play defense with the two Vales. DD
10 Raketenudo Depths of Desire , Mnemonic Wall , Bolas's Citadel , Sand Silos GT 190, WW
11 Wrath of Pie Forbidden Orchard , Flailing Soldier, Archangel's Light , Blinkmoth Infusion GT 11
My 2/2 Soldier doesn't race your 2/2 Ogre + 1/1 Spirit, but your Ogre would die if it attacks, and then my two 1/1 Spirits can't get in. DD
12 Symbi Land Cap, Dreadship Reef, Blessed Wine , Bond of Agony GT 44 WW
13 Silkster Timberland Ruins, Timberland Ruins , Heartless Summoning , Flailing Ogre GT 14, me!
14 BirdsOfParadise Flailing Soldier , Lotus Petal , Phage the Untouchable , Phage the Untouchable GT 11 DD because I can hold the Soldier to block.


18 W, 8 D = 62 points

My vote is to ban all the cards that are winning. If that gets outvoted, my vote is to protect only the 16 storage lands.



*So I thought you were playing more lands and just auto won, but then I went through the decks again to admire them and noticed the insanity that you came up with. (Beautiful, by the way!) Then I thought it was an easy DD, then I wondered if forcing you tap your Mana Vault might get you since your mana is so tight, then I wondered if I might actually win, and I think I do. (I'm relying on your 8 life calculation.) On the draw:

T1: Gorge, Vault, Map, Scry, 1 counter
T2: Scry, 2 counters
T3: Scry, transform Map. (it's at this point that you have the option of making a 2/2 that flails. If you do, I only need to take one turn off my game plan to kill it, so I would win at 7 life. So no Ogre for now.)
T4: Use one treasure to cast Hallowed Ground. (With Treasure Cove still in play, Ogre would only delay me for one turn, effectively doing 1 damage.)
T5: Float :2:, sac treasures to bounce Cove, replay Map. Now is your best window to cast Ogre.
T6: Scry, 1 counter. Take 2 from Ogre.
T7: Scry, 2 counters. Take 2 from Ogre.
T8. Scry, transform. Take 2 from Ogre.
T9: Use Gorge and Cove to kill Ogre. This delays my game plan by one, so I take 1 extra damage from Mana Vault, for a total of 7 extra damage.

[Dooey]

Dooey Roiling Vortex, Rainbow Vale, Rainbow Vale , One with Nothing GT 22
Was going for a deck that wins by small edge rather than by being slow. If any deck can do 1 damage to me before turn 22 with the assistance of 2 additional mana, they will win.

1 dte (TO) mana vault , shivan gorge , hallowed ground , treasure map GT 189
Whoever blinks first loses DD 2-2 0+2=2

2 Asthereal City of Brass , Dreadship Reef , Aura Flux , Teferi's Imp GT c. 45
Aura Flux kills my vortex and I eventually die to imp. LL 0-6 2+6=8

3 alphastryk Land Cap, Mage-Ring Network, Diamond Kaleidoscope , Epic Struggle GT 189* --> overestimated, more in the 130s?
Two extra mana doesn't speed up your clock enough to beat me, I kill you with vortex. WW 6-0 8+0=8

4 Dooey Roiling Vortex, Rainbow Vale, Rainbow Vale , One with Nothing GT 22
It me 8+0=8

5 FourDogsinaHorseSuit Mercadian Bazaar , Aura Thief , Through The Breach , Arc Blade GT 54
If I play vortex I lose, 2 additional mana lets you deal a damage to me before I kill you. If I don't play vortex, I lose to Arc Blade eventually. LL 0-6 8+6=14

6 jfb1337 Leechridden swamp , Subterranean Hangar , Dawn of the dead , Nefarious Lich GT 48
If I move first, you wait until you are at 1 and I'm at 2. Then you dump your hand, deal 1, and I lose in my upkeep, so I can't move first. If you move first, I play vortex and you lose to lich trigger. So we stare at each other. DD 2-2 14+2=16

7 Reeplcheep Detection Tower , Dreadship Reef , Copy Enchantment , Covetous Urge GT NA
As you said, my meme card killed me :( shouldn't have tried to be funny. DD 2-2 16+2=18

8 FTW Fountain of Cho , Sustaining Spirit , Green Scarab, Empyrial Armor GT 447
If I play vortex, a well-timed sustaining spirit keep you alive at 1 and I die to my own vortex. If I don't, you can kill me the slow way on turn 447. LL 0-6 18+6=24

9 RoosterCocoa Rainbow Vale , Rainbow Vale , Flailing Soldier , Ivory Mask GT 11
If I play vortex, I lose because you can deal me 1 damage. If you play soldier, you lose, because I will have 3 mana to kill it even it you try to save it. So we stare at each other. DD 2-2 24+2=26

10 Raketenudo Depths of Desire , Mnemonic Wall , Bolas's Citadel , Sand Silos GT 190
Two extra mana doesn't speed up your clock enough to win before vortex kills you WW 60 26+0=26

11 Wrath of Pie Forbidden Orchard , Flailing Soldier, Archangel's Light , Blinkmoth Infusion GT 11
An interesting one. If I ever cast vortex, I have no mana, and you can kill me with an unimpeded 2/2 (you can cast off vale without giving me a 1/1, and giving back one vale doesn't let me kill the soldier). So I can't win. But can I stop you from winning? If you are on the play, you give me a 1/1 to make your 2/2. I play 1st vale. I can get a point in. You untap with orchard. I don't think you can attack, by blocking with my 1/1 and spending both vales, I can kill the soldier, even if you tap orchard again. I can't attack either, or play vortex. So I think we stare at each other. When you are on the draw, I get a land out first, so if you ever tap out, I can kill soldier and be left with a 1/1. So you never tap out. I think we stare at each other DD 2-2 26+2=28

12 Symbi Land Cap, Dreadship Reef, Blessed Wine , Bond of Agony GT 44
You can beat vortex by gaining 1 life at any point, and doing nothing else. LL 0-6 28+6=34

13 Silkster Timberland Ruins, Timberland Ruins , Heartless Summoning , Flailing Ogre GT 14
If I ever play vortex, you can cast ogre without summoning, and deal me one damage, so I can't win. Can you win? If I do nothing, you can make a 2/2 ogre, which I can kill, but lose my mana in the process. So we stare at each other DD 2-2 34+2=36

14 BirdsOfParadise Flailing Soldier , Lotus Petal , Phage the Untouchable , Phage the Untouchable GT 11
If I play vortex first, soldier kills me. If you play soldier first, I can kill it, but not get vortex out. We stare at each other. DD 2-2 36+2=38

[Dooey]

My vote for bans would be to ban nothing to start, and allow the changing target deck to lead to shifting strategies.

[alphastryk]

Results for round 1 (I've recalculated my GT over and over again and I keep getting 189, can somebody help me see what I might have missed?):

1. dte (TO): mana vault, shivan gorge, hallowed ground, treasure map GT 189
We cannot interact with each other. If we are both GT189, WL 3-3.
If I miscalculated, I WW 6-0

2. Asthereal:City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp GT 45
I cannot interact with you and your Imp is far too fast for me. LL 0-6

3. alphastryk: Land Cap, Mage-Ring Network, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Epic Struggle GT 189* --> overestimated, more in the 130s?
me

4. Dooey: Roiling Vortex, Rainbow Vale, Rainbow Vale, One with Nothing GT 22
I cannot interact with you and your Roiling Vortex is far too fast for me. LL 0-6

5. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Mercadian Bazaar, Aura Thief, Through The Breach, Arc Blade GT 54
Your Arc Blade is too fast for me and can kill my Prisms and I can't beat Aura Thief. LL 0-6

6. jfb1337: Leechridden swamp, Subterranean Hangar, Dawn of the dead, Nefarious Lich GT 48
I cannot interact with you and your Leechridden Swamp is far too fast for me. LL 0-6

7. Reeplcheep: Detection Tower, Dreadship Reef, Copy Enchantment, Covetous Urge GT N/A
Cool deck, essentially infinitely slow with narrow interaction. Your Covetous Urge can always take something I need away but you can't win without both Kaleidoscope and Epic Struggle. DD 2-2

8. FTW: Fountain of Cho, Sustaining Spirit, Green Scarab, Empyrial Armor GT 447
And I thought my deck was slow! WW 6-0

9. RoosterCocoa: Rainbow Vale, Rainbow Vale, Flailing Soldier, Ivory Mask GT 11
Very clever, if I ever play out my lands to make progress you play Soldier, which I can always kill for the win with your donated Rainbow Vale and my Mage-Ring Network. You can't sit back forever or I win. WW 6-0

10. Raketenudo: Depths of Desire, Mnemonic Wall, Bolas's Citadel, Sand Silos GT 190
I'm just barely too fast for you. WW 6-0

11. Wrath of Pie: Forbidden Orchard, Flailing Soldier, Archangel's Light, Blinkmoth Infusion GT 11
I don't see how you beat the target deck? They can choose to not put Leyline in play so that they get a Spirit from Orchard and leave up Veldt + Spirit to block and shrink your Soldier to force a draw.
If your deck is legal, I can always get rid of your Soldier for the win. WW 6-0

12. Symbi: Land Cap, Dreadship Reef, Blessed Wine, Bond of Agony GT 44
I cannot interact with you and your Bond of Agony is too fast for me. LL 0-6

13. Silkster: Timberland Ruins, Timberland Ruins, Heartless Summoning, Flailing Ogre GT 14
I can always kill your Flailing Ogre, WW 6-0

14. BirdsOfParadise: Flailing Soldier, Lotus Petal, Phage the Untouchable, Phage the Untouchable GT 11
I can always kill your Flailing Soldier, WW 6-0

[dte]

*So I thought you were playing more lands and just auto won, but then I went through the decks again to admire them and noticed the insanity that you came up with. (Beautiful, by the way!) Then I thought it was an easy DD, then I wondered if forcing you tap your Mana Vault might get you since your mana is so tight, then I wondered if I might actually win, and I think I do. (I'm relying on your 8 life calculation.) On the draw:

T1: Gorge, Vault, Map, Scry, 1 counter
T2: Scry, 2 counters
T3: Scry, transform Map. (it's at this point that you have the option of making a 2/2 that flails. If you do, I only need to take one turn off my game plan to kill it, so I would win at 7 life. So no Ogre for now.)
T4: Use one treasure to cast Hallowed Ground. (With Treasure Cove still in play, Ogre would only delay me for one turn, effectively doing 1 damage.)
T5: Float :2:, sac treasures to bounce Cove, replay Map. Now is your best window to cast Ogre.
T6: Scry, 1 counter. Take 2 from Ogre.
T7: Scry, 2 counters. Take 2 from Ogre.
T8. Scry, transform. Take 2 from Ogre.
T9: Use Gorge and Cove to kill Ogre. This delays my game plan by one, so I take 1 extra damage from Mana Vault, for a total of 7 extra damage.

That seem correct. So I win both OTP and OTD at 1 life, netting 0 points. Being unable to cast ogre before T4 helps quite a lot here.

[jfb1337]

11. Wrath of Pie: Forbidden Orchard, Flailing Soldier, Archangel's Light, Blinkmoth Infusion GT 11
I don't see how you beat the target deck? They can choose to not put Leyline in play so that they get a Spirit from Orchard and leave up Veldt + Spirit to block and shrink your Soldier to force a draw.
If your deck is legal, I can always get rid of your Soldier for the win. WW 6-0


If target deck leaves up veldt+spirit, then when WoP attacks, target shrinks and blocks, then WoP grows after blockers are declared, leaving target with a new spirit. Then veldt doesn't untap, and WoP gets in a free attack.

[alphastryk]

If target deck leaves up veldt+spirit, then when WoP attacks, target shrinks and blocks, then WoP grows after blockers are declared, leaving target with a new spirit. Then veldt doesn't untap, and WoP gets in a free attack.

Thanks for clarifying

[dte]

Results for round 1 (I've recalculated my GT over and over again and I keep getting 189, can somebody help me see what I might have missed?):



3. alphastryk: Land Cap, Mage-Ring Network, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Epic Struggle GT 189* --> overestimated, more in the 130s?
me

once diamond is in play, all free and untap.
T1, 1C
T2, wait
T3, 2C
T4, wait
T5, make a prism token
T6, wait

So it takes 6 turns per token, and you need 22 of them --> 132 turns. plus the turns to make the kaleidoscope and the 2 manas for epic struggle, you are around 145 maybe?

[alphastryk]

once diamond is in play, all free and untap.
T1, 1C
T2, wait
T3, 2C
T4, wait
T5, make a prism token
T6, wait

So it takes 6 turns per token, and you need 22 of them --> 132 turns. plus the turns to make the kaleidoscope and the 2 manas for epic struggle, you are around 145 maybe?

Aha, I was thinking I needed to use my other land to take counters off of Mage-Ring Network but I don't, will remove 2 turns from every calculation:

Make 7 mana with Mage-Ring Network + Land Cap on my turn 14, play Diamond Kaleidoscope and activate making 1 Prism token. After that I need to activate the Kaleidoscope another 21 times so that I can sacrifice 2 Prisms to make GG and keep 20 creatures for Epic Struggle. The first 20 times I need to store 3 mana and use Kaleidoscope (which involves tapping). Each of those takes 6 turns. Putting me to turn 140 to get to 21 Prisms. Then I take 10 turns to build 5 mana with Mage-Ring Network + Land Cap to create the 22nd Prism while leaving me 2 mana to cast Epic Struggle (along with 2 Prisms) on my turn 150, winning on my turn 151

That puts me to GT 151, which means I W vs dte but all other results are the same

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

dte: WW
Asthereal: Kill the Imp, WW
alphastryk: Kill the pests, WW
Dooey: Through the breach Aura thief when we're at 2. WW
JFB1337: They can't cast Lich and if they can't they can't hit two black permanants. WW
Reeplcheep: I suspend Arcblade the turn before they cast Urge. I blade the stolen aura thief.
FTW: Your deck doesn't do shit, lmao. WW
Rooster Cocoa: You can't cast Ivory Mask to force me to blade myself to death, and if you ever cast Soldier I'll blade it. WW
Raketenudo: Blade don't miss. WW
Wrath of Pie: Thanks for the 1/1 I guess. Kill your guy WW
Symbi: Blade loop is one turn faster than your wine loop, which means I win on about turn 210.
Silkster: I kill the ogre. WW
BirdsOfParadise: I kill the Soldier WW
0 points.

[silkster]

6 jfb1337 Leechridden swamp , Subterranean Hangar , Dawn of the dead , Nefarious Lich GT 48
Going for a ping+self-damage strat, that's incredibly fragile to a single point of damage or life gain.

9 RoosterCocoa Rainbow Vale , Rainbow Vale , Flailing Soldier , Ivory Mask GT 11
I think you're always able to get in a hit with soldier:
- When I'm OTD, you play the soldier T1. I get the vale but can't kill it, as my lands enter tapped, so I take a hit T2.
- When I'm OTP:
-- If I play hangar first, you play the soldier T1, and as above I can't kill it.
-- If I play leechridden swamp first, you play a land T1, then T2 I play the hangar, you play soldier T1, then I have 2 mana available with vale+swamp, but you have the other vale avilable to save it. So you get in a hit T3.
Either way, I can't win after taking a hit, but I can still eventually kill the soldier and it's a draw. You don't play the soldier any later, such as after I play the lich, as I'm always able to keep up enough mana to kill it before playing out my stuff. Thus, DD 2-2.

12 Symbi Land Cap, Dreadship Reef, Blessed Wine , Bond of Agony GT 44
You play blessed wine and I can't win. LL 6-0..

I think these are off.

T1: Leechriddden Swamp; Rainbow Vale.
T2: Hangar; Vale, Soldier giving up a Vale.
T3: Hangar at 1 counter; Soldier attacks, Swamp and Vale give it -2/-2, and Vale on the other side gives it +1/+1. Vales are traded, and 1 damage gets in.
T4: Untap and kill Soldier with Swamp and Hangar (and you have a Vale too, but don't need it).

Then the question is whether 1 damage is enough to stop you. The turn you cast both black enchantments, you get to ping once. So you'll pass the turn at 19-19. When you untap at 1-1, you can ping with the Dawn of the Dead trigger on the stack. So this match is WD for the Leechridden Swamp.

Against Blessed Wine, you play your game the same as though Blessed Wine wasn't there. Suppose you start at 20 and Symbi starts at 21. Before Symbi can get 21 mana, you'll have started your pinging. You ping the turn it lands, so the life totals are 20-20. Whenever it's Symbi's turn, the life totals are equal, so a Bond of Agony for lethal would cost all of Symbi's life. Eventually at 1-1, Leechridden Swamp wins again with the Dawn trigger on the stack.

[silkster]

That seem correct. So I win both OTP and OTD at 1 life, netting 0 points. Being unable to cast ogre before T4 helps quite a lot here.

I had a few decks similar to the Leechridden Swamp deck but with only a charge land, and I really wanted to make sure that a single charge land could kill my threat before it gets in any damage.

Though actually, I think you beat the Lotus Petal + Flailing Solder deck too. If the Soldier is played turn 1 on the play, you play Gorge + Vault, then wait until the next turn when you can play Map and kill the soldier, taking only 3 damage in the process. Otherwise, you play turn 1 (Gorge + Vault + Map + Scry, 1 counter); Soldier; Scry 2; Soldier hits for 2; Scry, transform; Soldier hits for 2; take the turn off to kill Soldier, take 1 from Vault.

[jfb1337]

I think these are off.

T1: Leechriddden Swamp; Rainbow Vale.
T2: Hangar; Vale, Soldier giving up a Vale.
T3: Hangar at 1 counter; Soldier attacks, Swamp and Vale give it -2/-2, and Vale on the other side gives it +1/+1. Vales are traded, and 1 damage gets in.
T4: Untap and kill Soldier with Swamp and Hangar (and you have a Vale too, but don't need it).

Then the question is whether 1 damage is enough to stop you. The turn you cast both black enchantments, you get to ping once. So you'll pass the turn at 19-19. When you untap at 1-1, you can ping with the Dawn of the Dead trigger on the stack. So this match is WD for the Leechridden Swamp.

Against Blessed Wine, you play your game the same as though Blessed Wine wasn't there. Suppose you start at 20 and Symbi starts at 21. Before Symbi can get 21 mana, you'll have started your pinging. You ping the turn it lands, so the life totals are 20-20. Whenever it's Symbi's turn, the life totals are equal, so a Bond of Agony for lethal would cost all of Symbi's life. Eventually at 1-1, Leechridden Swamp wins again with the Dawn trigger on the stack.

Oof, good points.

[Raketenudo]

10 Raketenudo Depths of Desire, Mnemonic Wall, Bolas's Citadel, Sand Silos GT 190
Correction: MY GT should be at 187, not 190.
I was trying to maximize GT through expensive mana, and chose the solution that wold additionally take longest to deal damage for the first time.


1 dte (TO) mana vault, shivan gorge, hallowed ground, treasure map GT 189
0-6: I only need to deal 10 to you, which reduces my GT by 80 to 110. No further Interaction. WW

2 Asthereal City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp GT c. 45
6-0: Our Decks don't interact direrctly. We can ignore Aura Flux. You deal 3 Damage to yourself to play Imp, but this doesn’t impact my GT.You then beat me to death in c. 40 additional turns. LL

3 alphastryk Land Cap, Mage-Ring Network, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Epic Struggle GT 189* --> overestimated, more in the 130s?
6-0: I calculated your GT @145. Our decks don't interact, so you're faster. LL
Calculation: You need 22 prism to win (20 for wincon, 2 for GG). Each prism costs 3 mana; 1 mana costs you 2 turns to produce. Add 6 Colorless for casting Kaleidoscope and Epic Struggle, plus 1 turn to play 2nd land = ( (3*22)+6 Mana ) * 2 Turns + 1 = 145 Turns

4 Dooey Roiling Vortex, Rainbow Vale, Rainbow Vale, One with Nothing GT 22
6-0: You play Roiling Vortex and win. I'm way too slow. LL

5 FourDogsinaHorseSuit Mercadian Bazaar, Aura Thief, Through The Breach, Arc Blade GT 54
6-0: Our Decks don’t interact. You win at your GT. LL

6 jfb1337 Leechridden swamp, Subterranean Hangar, Dawn of the dead, Nefarious Lich GT 48
6-0: even though you very much deal damage to yourself, I still ned 107 Turns for my first Bolas Citadel Activation. You’re faster. LL

7 Reeplcheep Detection Tower, Dreadship Reef, Copy Enchantment, Covetous Urge GT NA
2-2: You take Citadel from my hand, then we stare at each other for infinity. DD

8 FTW Fountain of Cho, Sustaining Spirit, Green Scarab, Empyrial Armor GT 447
0-6: We don’t really interact, so you win. WW

9 RoosterCocoa Rainbow Vale, Rainbow Vale, Flailing Soldier, Ivory Mask GT 11
0-6:I can kill your Flailing Soldier, so I Win. WW

11 Wrath of Pie Forbidden Orchard, Flailing Soldier, Archangel's Light, Blinkmoth Infusion GT 11
0-6: I can always kill Flailing Soldier and then win. WW

12 Symbi Land Cap, Dreadship Reef, Blessed Wine, Bond of Agony GT 44
6-0: We don’t interact, and your GT is faster (Gaining 1 Life would increase my GT to 267). LL

13 Silkster Timberland Ruins, Timberland Ruins, Heartless Summoning, Flailing Ogre GT 14
0-6: I can always kill the Ogre and win. WW

14 BirdsOfParadise Flailing Soldier, Lotus Petal, Phage the Untouchable, Phage the Untouchable GT 11
0-6: I can always kill the Soldier and win. WW

12x L, 12x W, 2x D
= 38 Pts


Bans: I’d like to keep all storage Lands in, as they are enablers. I’d like to see what they can enable down the road, when more and more obviously strong strategies are gone.
But damn, those flailing dudes need to leave, didn’t have them in my sight at all.

[silkster]

1 dte (TO) mana vault , shivan gorge , hallowed ground , treasure map GT 189
Me, playing in between two of the popular strategies: hurting myself (not enough), and late GT. Turn 14, I untap vault at 8 HP, with 0 treasures. Then I gain 1 treasure every 4 turns, and I need 40 of them, then 20 turns pinging.

10 Raketenudo Depths of Desire , Mnemonic Wall , Bolas's Citadel , Sand Silos GT 190
6-0. Me getting below 10 makes you much faster!
34

11 Wrath of Pie Forbidden Orchard , Flailing Soldier, Archangel's Light , Blinkmoth Infusion GT 11
2-2. Stare again.
30

Edit: 38, I WW vs Silkster at 1 life. 38 is below the banning threshold :/

You kept a running total, but deprived yourself of 6 points here. I only noticed cause I was inputting your scores into the sheet. This puts you up to 44, but then I think you also 0-6 to Petal+Soldier, but 42 still gets banned.


Oof, good points.
I noticed this quickly because I had the same deck in my gauntlet, but with a different useless enchantment instead of Nefarious Lich, and I was really sad to notice that the deck actually goes ahead by 2 life.

[Raketenudo]

@Alphastryke: You reported 6 points vs me; as you WW it should be 0

Upon closer Inspection, I think you calculated with W=3 L=0; but we#re playing Backbuild, so it's W=0 L=3

[Symbi]

So I had the idea to build a deck that can't win if the opponent can deal 1 damage to it. Unfortunately, other people managed to do it better.
1. dte mana vault, shivan gorge, hallowed ground, treasure map: I can cast bond long before you can get my life total low enough. WW 0-6
2. Asthereal City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp: Imp deals enough damage to prevent my win, even when accounting for city of brass. LL 6-0
3. alphastryk Land Cap, Mage-Ring Network, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Epic Struggle: I'm faster and you don't interact. WW 0-6
4. Dooey Roiling Vortex, Rainbow Vale, Rainbow Vale, One with Nothing: I cast wine and you can't win. WW 0-6
5. FourDogsinaHorseSuit Mercadian Bazaar, Aura Thief, Through The Breach, Arc Blade: You cast arc blade and I can't win. LL 6-0
6. jfb1337 Leechridden swamp, Subterranean Hangar, Dawn of the dead, Nefarious Lich: What silkster said. LL 6-0
7. Reeplcheep Detection Tower, Dreadship Reef, Copy Enchantment, Covetous Urge: You take my bond and neither of us can win. DD 2-2
8. FTW Fountain of Cho, Sustaining Spirit, Green Scarab, Empyrial Armor: You can deal 1 damage before I have the mana to cast bond, but your spirit dies and neither of us can win. DD 2-2
9. RoosterCocoa Rainbow Vale, Rainbow Vale, Flailing Soldier, Ivory Mask: I kill your soldier before it can swing. WW 0-6
10. Raketenudo Depths of Desire, Mnemonic Wall, Bolas's Citadel, Sand Silos: I kill you before your first citadel activation. WW 0-6
11. Wrath of Pie Forbidden Orchard, Flailing Soldier, Archangel's Light, Blinkmoth Infusion: I kill your soldier before it can swing. WW 0-6
12. Symbi Land Cap, Dreadship Reef, Blessed Wine, Bond of Agony: That's me!
13. Silkster Timberland Ruins, Timberland Ruins, Heartless Summoning, Flailing Ogre: I kill your ogre before it can swing. WW 0-6
14. BirdsOfParadise Flailing Soldier, Lotus Petal, Phage the Untouchable, Phage the Untouchable: OTP I kill your soldier before it can swing. OTD I can't kill the soldier before taking 1 damage then neither of us can win. WD 1-4

In total I score 23 points (6+6+6+2+2+1).

[RoosterCocoa]

9 RoosterCocoa Rainbow Vale , Rainbow Vale , Flailing Soldier , Ivory Mask GT 11

1 dte (TO) mana vault , shivan gorge , hallowed ground , treasure map GT 189
From your post, you go down to 8 in the process of winning. If I play Flailing Soldier before you tap mana vault, I lose since you can just kill it with Ranbow Vale and Shivan Gorge, tapping Mana Vault if I pump Soldier with my Rainbow Vale. This causes us to switch Vales, so you can use your new Vale to cast Treasure Map next turn, and end up only taking 2 extra damage from Mana Vault. If I play Soldier after you tap Mana Vault to play Treasure Map, you then untap and wait until my turn, when you use Shivan Gorge and the Rainbow Vale I gave you to give the Soldier -2/-2. In response I use my Rainbow Vale to pump it, leaving it a 1/1 and causing us to switch Rainbow Vales, so I only attack you for 1. You then untap and use Shivan Gorge and your new Rainbow Vale to kill the Soldier, so in total this causes you to take 1 damage from the Solider and 2 extra damage from Mana Vault by delaying you for 2 turns. If I wait until after you have untapped Mana Vault to play Flailing Soldier, you kill it the same way, and only take 1 damage from it attacking as a 1/1 once. At most I can cause you to lose 3 extra life on top of what you need to lose to Mana Vault, so I always lose. LL

2 Asthereal City of Brass , Dreadship Reef , Aura Flux , Teferi's Imp GT c. 45
You have enough mana to kill my Soldier, so I can't win. You take 1 damage tapping City of Brass to kill the Soldier, but I give you a Rainbow Vale use to make up for it. LL

3 alphastryk Land Cap, Mage-Ring Network, Diamond Kaleidoscope , Epic Struggle GT 189* --> overestimated, more in the 130s?
You kill my Soldier, then eventually win. LL

4 Dooey Roiling Vortex, Rainbow Vale, Rainbow Vale , One with Nothing GT 22
If you play Vortex, you lose, but if you don't you can immediately kill my Soldier and we draw. DD

5 FourDogsinaHorseSuit Mercadian Bazaar , Aura Thief , Through The Breach , Arc Blade GT 54
You produce enough mana to kill my Soldier, then eventually win. LL

6 jfb1337 Leechridden swamp , Subterranean Hangar , Dawn of the dead , Nefarious Lich GT 48
OTP I am too quick to deal damage so we draw, but OTD you barely get a win as explained by Silkster. DL

7 Reeplcheep Detection Tower , Dreadship Reef , Copy Enchantment , Covetous Urge GT NA
You easily kill my Soldier but can't win. DD I didn't notice that Covetous Urge could cast cards from my graveyard, so you either kill it and then cast it from my graveyard, or you take it from my hand. You have 2 lands, so you can easily prevent me from ever killing the Soldier once you get it, getting you the win. WW

8 FTW Fountain of Cho , Sustaining Spirit , Green Scarab, Empyrial Armor GT 447
You kill my Soldier and eventually win. LL

10 Raketenudo Depths of Desire , Mnemonic Wall , Bolas's Citadel , Sand Silos GT 190
You kill my Soldier and eventually win. LL

11 Wrath of Pie Forbidden Orchard , Flailing Soldier, Archangel's Light , Blinkmoth Infusion GT 11
I think I always win, since you end up giving me a 1/1 at some point. WW I missed that the spirits don't have flying. I play my Soldier, then you play yours, giving me a spirit. If I attack with my Soldier, you block with yours and give it +1/+1, giving me a second spirit. If I try to give yours -1/-1, you just give it +1/+1 again and we swap Rainbow Vales, so my Soldier always ends up dying. I then am left with 2 1/1s and one Rainbow Vale, so if I attack with them you block one of them, then if I try to give your Soldier -1/-1 you use your Rainbow Vale to make sure it survives, and from then go on to win. If initially I decide to just attack with my 1/1 spirit instead of my Soldier, you block and if I use my Rainbow Vale on your Soldier, you protect it with yours, so we swap Vales and you are left in an improved position. Therefore I never attack, and you never attack into my better board position so we draw. DD

12 Symbi Land Cap, Dreadship Reef, Blessed Wine , Bond of Agony GT 44
You kill my Soldier and eventually win. LL

13 Silkster Timberland Ruins, Timberland Ruins , Heartless Summoning , Flailing Ogre GT 14
If I play my Soldier before you play Heartless Summoning, you win so I wait for you to make a move. However, if you do play your Ogre we are both left with identical boards, so we tie. DD

14 BirdsOfParadise Flailing Soldier , Lotus Petal , Phage the Untouchable , Phage the Untouchable GT 11
We stare or trade. DD

0W 9D 17L = 60

After I found Flailing Soldier, I knew I had to find a way to play a deck that couldn't beat a basic land. I threw in Ivory Mask in hopes that someone would have a list based on their opponent having an enchantment in hand, but I see I should have just gone with an expensive wincon that required a bunch of mana once in play to do anything.

[dte]

You kept a running total, but deprived yourself of 6 points here. I only noticed cause I was inputting your scores into the sheet. This puts you up to 44, but then I think you also 0-6 to Petal+Soldier, but 42 still gets banned..

I guess I would also WW vs WoP and RoosterCocoa by the same logic, sticking to 38 and unbanned :/

[Wrath of Pie]

11 Wrath of Pie Forbidden Orchard , Flailing Soldier, Archangel's Light , Blinkmoth Infusion GT 11

I started with trying to win at 1 life, but everything I could come up with was way way too fast. Prison pieces were too good (no, seriously, Eon Hub was too good, which was hilarious), so I went to the classic Flailing Soldier plan. Unfortunately, using a single Rainbow Vale doesn't beat the sample hand* because Leyline of Sanctity is optional (this also foiled half of my ideas), so Forbidden Orchard was the compromise. (Also, I wanted two uncastable blanks, for obvious reasons.)

Now the worst part: figuring out what half the cards do.

Remember that hands are exchanged as per the first post, so WW is still desirable.

1 dte (TO) mana vault , shivan gorge , hallowed ground , treasure map GT 189 - WW - Winning at 8 life is a bit too good against flailing.
2 Asthereal City of Brass , Dreadship Reef , Aura Flux , Teferi's Imp GT c. 45 - WW
3 alphastryk Land Cap, Mage-Ring Network, Diamond Kaleidoscope , Epic Struggle GT 189* --> overestimated, more in the 130s? - WW
4 Dooey Roiling Vortex, Rainbow Vale, Rainbow Vale , One with Nothing GT 22 - DD? I want to say we stare, but this matchup is a mess.
5 FourDogsinaHorseSuit Mercadian Bazaar , Aura Thief , Through The Breach , Arc Blade GT 54 - WW - Arc Blade is way way too good for Backbuild.
6 jfb1337 Leechridden swamp , Subterranean Hangar , Dawn of the dead , Nefarious Lich GT 48 - DD
7 Reeplcheep Detection Tower , Dreadship Reef , Copy Enchantment , Covetous Urge GT NA - WW - This is brilliant. So brilliant I had to actually read Covetous Urge more than once. Unfortunately, I fear it's a bit too good against the other flailers because it can cast them after the exile from graveyard.
8 FTW Fountain of Cho , Sustaining Spirit , Green Scarab, Empyrial Armor GT 447 WW
9 RoosterCocoa Rainbow Vale , Rainbow Vale , Flailing Soldier , Ivory Mask GT 11 - DD - Two Rainbow Vales does get there, unlike one.
10 Raketenudo Depths of Desire , Mnemonic Wall , Bolas's Citadel , Sand Silos GT 190
- WW - I tried to make Citadel work, but I couldn't get it to work with winning at 1 life.
12 Symbi Land Cap, Dreadship Reef, Blessed Wine , Bond of Agony GT 44 - WW
13 Silkster Timberland Ruins, Timberland Ruins , Heartless Summoning , Flailing Ogre GT 14 - DD - I wasn't expecting a Flailing Ogre sighting! We actually stare, because Heartless Summoning kills Spirits from Forbidden Orchard, but the result is the same.
14 BirdsOfParadise Flailing Soldier , Lotus Petal , Phage the Untouchable , Phage the Untouchable GT 11 - DD - In a surprise move, we stare.

18w8d = 62 points

I look forward to a lot less flailing in the future. (silkster was the best flailer, though.)

* I call it a hand because the cards start there and thus is more intuitive terminology. I'll try to spare everyone the essay.

[FTW]

8 FTW Fountain of Cho , Sustaining Spirit , Green Scarab, Empyrial Armor GT 447

Edit: Math added for future rounds' reference
425 mana & 447 turns to cast Spirit+Armor and attack 20 times as a 1/4.
113 mana & 125 turns to attack 10 times as a 2/5 with Green Scarab, racing the target deck if it tries to use Helix Pinnacle.

I originally submitted alphastryk's deck until I found a way to make this even slower deck race the target deck (Green Scarab). I thought slowest was better.
In general, the Spirit + Armor 1/4 costs n*(n+1) + 5 mana to kill an opponent at n life. With a storage land, that takes n*(n+2) + 7 turns.
Epic Struggle+Kaleidoscope was 3n+12 mana (n=20). Even with slow storage, that's just 6n+23 turns. O(n) instead of O(n^2).
But I did not consider how much faster Spirit gets vs opponents who drop their life very low. That mattered in 4 matchups!

1 dte (TO): If you tap Vault, you drop to 8 and Spirit races you (T87). WW 0-6
2 Asthereal: You slow down my clock by 40 turns!! No way I can race Imp. LL 6-0
3 alphastryk: Epic Struggle races me! If you hold it until the turn before you win, I can't use Green Scarab. LL 6-0
4 Dooey: If you play Vortex, Spirit+Armor can attack so Vortex kills you first. WW 0-6
5 FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Arc Blade races me. LL 6-0
6 jfb1337: If you play your cards, Spirit+Armor can attack twice so you die first. WW 0-6
7 Reeplcheep: You steal my Spirit but can't do much with it. DD 2-2
9 RoosterCocoa: I can kill Flailing Soldier. WW 0-6
10 Raketenudo: Too fast! Plus I can't even win through Depths of Desire killing my Aura. LL 6-0
11 Wrath of Pie: I can kill Flailing Soldier. WW 0-6
12 Symbi: To stop you from killing me, I can send Spirit at you before turn 20 but then I can't finish the job. DD 2-2
13 Silkster: I can kill Flailing Ogre. WW 0-6
14 BirdsOfParadise: I can kill Flailing Soldier. WW 0-6

26 points (8 loss, 2 draw, 14 win)

I missed the Flailing memo. Good tech vs Veldt.

[BirdsOfParadise]

14 BirdsOfParadise Flailing Soldier , Lotus Petal , Phage the Untouchable , Phage the Untouchable GT 11

1 dte (TO) mana vault , shivan gorge , hallowed ground , treasure map
DD (2 pt)
2 Asthereal City of Brass , Dreadship Reef , Aura Flux , Teferi's Imp
LL (2 + 6 = 8 pt)
3 alphastryk Land Cap, Mage-Ring Network, Diamond Kaleidoscope , Epic Struggle
LL (8 + 6 = 14 pt)
4 Dooey Roiling Vortex, Rainbow Vale, Rainbow Vale , One with Nothing
DD (14 + 2 = 16 pt)
5 FourDogsinaHorseSuit Mercadian Bazaar , Aura Thief , Through The Breach , Arc Blade
LL (16 + 6 = 22 pt)
6 jfb1337 Leechridden swamp , Subterranean Hangar , Dawn of the dead , Nefarious Lich
DD (22 + 2 = 24 pt)
7 Reeplcheep Detection Tower , Dreadship Reef , Copy Enchantment , Covetous Urge
DD (24 + 2 = 26 pt)
8 FTW Fountain of Cho , Sustaining Spirit , Green Scarab, Empyrial Armor
LL (26 + 6 = 32 pt)
9 RoosterCocoa Rainbow Vale , Rainbow Vale , Flailing Soldier , Ivory Mask
If I cast Soldier, you kill it with two Rainbow Vales. If you cast Soldier, I kill it with Lotus Petal and your Rainbow Vale.
DD (32 + 2 = 34 pt)
10 Raketenudo Depths of Desire , Mnemonic Wall , Bolas's Citadel , Sand Silos
LL (34 + 6 = 40 pt)
11 Wrath of Pie Forbidden Orchard , Flailing Soldier, Archangel's Light , Blinkmoth Infusion
Wrath of Pie says it's DD. I feel like this is giving me too much credit, but it's hurting my head to work this one out. I'll take Wrath of Pie's DD unless someone shows this is incorrect.
DD (40 + 2 = 42 pt)
12 Symbi Land Cap, Dreadship Reef, Blessed Wine , Bond of Agony
DL (42 + 4 = 46 pt)
13 Silkster Timberland Ruins, Timberland Ruins , Heartless Summoning , Flailing Ogre
DD (46 + 2 = 48 pt)

Total = 48 pt

[silkster]

9 RoosterCocoa Rainbow Vale , Rainbow Vale , Flailing Soldier , Ivory Mask GT 11

7 Reeplcheep Detection Tower , Dreadship Reef , Copy Enchantment , Covetous Urge GT NA
You easily kill my Soldier but can't win. DD I didn't notice that Covetous Urge could cast cards from my graveyard, so you either kill it and then cast it from my graveyard, or you take it from my hand. You have 2 lands, so you can easily prevent me from ever killing the Soldier once you get it, getting you the win. WW

I saw your disagreement with Reeplcheep and so I read through your post more carefully to see where you went wrong, but you didn't! Which means that I get points against Reeplcheep too! (Likewise for Wrath of Pie and BirdsOfParadise.) All these newfangled cards are so confusing!

Also, it seems that I'm the only one who viewed the matches as trading decks. I'm not going to rewrite my post, but I'll do it the same as everyone else next time, where LL is 6-0.

I was looking over scores for Asthereal, and I think it should be: alphastryk 6 - 0 Asthereal. Actually, I think all of alphastryk's scores are backwards.

[dte]

Thanks all for filling up the spreadsheet!
So we already have the scores:

4,8 Wrath of Pie
4,8 Silkster
4,6 RoosterCocoa
3,7 BirdsOfParadise
2,9 dte (TO)
2,9 Dooey
2,9 Raketenudo
2,5 alphastryk
2,5 Reeplcheep
2,4 jfb1337
2,2 FTW
1,8 Symbi
0,5 Asthereal
0,0 FourDogsinaHorseSuit

So only the 4 flailing decks passed the banning threshold (congrats to the ones that saw how good it was vs a single veldt!), leading to these bans of the flailing strategy:

Rainbow Vale
Lotus Petal
Forbidden Orchard
Flailing Soldier
Flailing Ogre
Heartless Summoning
Flailing Manticore

Joining Helix pinnacle on the banlist.

The decks to beat for R2 will thus be one of these three:
Rainbow Vale, Rainbow Vale, Flailing Soldier, Ivory Mask
Forbidden Orchard, Flailing Soldier, Archangel's Light, Blinkmoth Infusion
Timberland Ruins, Timberland Ruins, Heartless Summoning, Flailing Ogre

I'll send myself a deck and open R2 very soon.

[dte]

And R2 is open!

I PM’ed a deck to myself, deadline is August 23rd, 19h00 CEST (Central European Summer Time).

banlist:
Rainbow Vale
Lotus Petal
Forbidden Orchard
Flailing Soldier
Flailing Ogre
Heartless Summoning
Flailing Manticore
Helix pinnacle

decks to beat (one of your choice):
Rainbow Vale, Rainbow Vale, Flailing Soldier, Ivory Mask
Forbidden Orchard, Flailing Soldier, Archangel's Light, Blinkmoth Infusion
Timberland Ruins, Timberland Ruins, Heartless Summoning, Flailing Ogre

[alphastryk]

@Alphastryke: You reported 6 points vs me; as you WW it should be 0

Upon closer Inspection, I think you calculated with W=3 L=0; but we#re playing Backbuild, so it's W=0 L=3

I did forget to invert my points in my post but will update in the spreadsheet if that's how we're doing the math.

Edit - it looks like someone already updated me there

[Reeplcheep]

Why are Leyline of Sanctity and noxious revival not banned? I won many matches since I had to play detection tower.

Banning lotus petal but not timberland ruins doesn’t make sense to me.

[alphastryk]

I think we need to resolve the ban rules clearly before we move on to the next round

[dte]

Banning lotus petal but not timberland ruins doesn’t make sense to me.

Lotus petal is a unique card, and playing it enables particular strategies. Banning timberlands ruins doesn't make sense to me, as there are many different cards that would be indistinguishable from it.


I think we need to resolve the ban rules clearly before we move on to the next round

The round 2 has started and the rules are:
1) each round, cards would be banned to prevent an identical strategy as any deck that have been scoring over 3 SP. Banning system to be re-discussed after round 3.
2) if you play a card on the banning list, your deck is illegal.

The banning list is here:
Rainbow Vale
Lotus Petal
Forbidden Orchard
Flailing Soldier
Flailing Ogre
Heartless Summoning
Flailing Manticore
Helix pinnacle

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

When the rules say "Random are most benefitial to the opponent" which opponenet? The person I'm playing against, or the player who doesn't control the ability?

E: and because we're in buildback does it mean the opposite?

[dte]

When the rules say "Random are most benefitial to the opponent" which opponenet? The person I'm playing against, or the player who doesn't control the ability?

E: and because we're in buildback does it mean the opposite?

Rules are that you are exchanging decks at the beginning, otherwise "normal" 4cb rules apply. So a mana crypt generally bolts every upkeep.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Rules are that you are exchanging decks at the beginning, otherwise "normal" 4cb rules apply. So a mana crypt generally bolts every upkeep.

What if I donate the Crypt? Does it stop bolting?

[GoblinSmashmaster]

GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "Flail"

15 GoblinSmashmaster Saprazzan Cove, Copy Enchantment, Kiora's Dismissal, Mindslaver GT NA
That's me, playing illegal deck

Total: 0 points :(

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "Flail"
Total: 0 points :(

Wow. Second worst.

[dte]

What if I donate the Crypt? Does it stop bolting?

Nope, crypt/donate was actually a boogeyman of the last season.

[Reeplcheep]

GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "Flail"

15 GoblinSmashmaster Saprazzan Cove, Copy Enchantment, Kiora's Dismissal, Mindslaver GT NA
That's me, playing illegal deck

Total: 0 points :(

Can you explain what is wrong with this deck? It seems very similar to mine. Dismiss the Leyline, use mindslaver to make the goldfish cast the card, then copy it and win since you make mana faster than the goldfish.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Can you explain what is wrong with this deck? It seems very similar to mine. Dismiss the Leyline, use mindslaver to make the goldfish cast the card, then copy it and win since you make mana faster than the goldfish.

Veidt enters tapped. Op is under no obligation to play it and you can only slaver once. So the games end in a draw.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Nope, crypt/donate was actually a boogeyman of the last season.

So then "the opponent" always refers to the player who does not control the random effect?

[jfb1337]

Veidt enters tapped. Op is under no obligation to play it and you can only slaver once. So the games end in a draw.

It enters untapped, but opponent can play it, keep it up, then tap it in response to mindslaver in order to prevent it from untapping on the controlled turn.

[dte]

So then "the opponent" always refers to the player who does not control the random effect?

Random effects are always detrimental to the controller of the effect.

Veldt does not enter tapped, but can be tapped in response to a mindslaver activation;)

[Wrath of Pie]

GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "Flail"

15 GoblinSmashmaster Saprazzan Cove, Copy Enchantment, Kiora's Dismissal, Mindslaver GT NA
That's me, playing illegal deck

Total: 0 points :(

Too bad Flailing Goblin isn't a card, you would have enjoyed it so much.

[dte]

It seems that it escaped notice: Flailing Manticore is banned.

There are no longer any legal Flailing creatures.

[FTW]

Lotus petal is a unique card, and playing it enables particular strategies. Banning timberlands ruins doesn't make sense to me, as there are many different cards that would be indistinguishable from it.



The round 2 has started and the rules are:
1) each round, cards would be banned to prevent an identical strategy as any deck that have been scoring over 3 SP. Banning system to be re-discussed after round 3.
2) if you play a card on the banning list, your deck is illegal.

The banning list is here:
Rainbow Vale
Lotus Petal
Forbidden Orchard
Flailing Soldier
Flailing Ogre
Heartless Summoning
Flailing Manticore
Helix pinnacle

This makes no sense to me as Noxious Revival Leyline of Sanctity and Veldt are unique cards. You could argue there are other lands like Veldt, but not of that particular color combination (e.g. it is 1 of only 2 that work with Helix Pinnacle). But Leyline of Sanctity is very different than Ivory Mask (turn 0 protection for any deck, vs slow protection needing white mana). Noxious Revival is also unique in being playable for 0 mana in any deck, while the other effects are not instant, need colored mana, or can't target opponent's graveyard.

Banning all Flailing creatures, on the other hand, makes sense to avoid repetitive rounds.

Anyway, are the rules and bannings locked in for Round 2?

[dte]

Rules and bans are locked in, we are three that have already submitted decks for round 2.

Leyline and noxious, it is because no one actually played it. Helix is still ban as a particularly slow, efficient one card win.

The goal of the bans is to avoid strategic repetition and copycats: hence the preventive ban of flayling Manticore, and Blinkmoth Infusion not being banned. I will also try to keep the banlist as small as possible.

[silkster]

Like most people here, I liked the consistency of previous seasons. Some of these bans seem arbitrary, and even from your description of how you would choose bans, I wouldn't have been able to predict which cards would be banned. A few times in previous seasons I started planning decks before the next round opened by just looking at the results. I guess if you're checking here frequently and making the declaration quickly then it doesn't really matter.

That said, I do appreciate that Flailing Manticore is banned. I was almost certainly going to play it this round, but I didn't really want to.

[dte]

Like most people here, I liked the consistency of previous seasons. Some of these bans seem arbitrary, and even from your description of how you would choose bans, I wouldn't have been able to predict which cards would be banned. A few times in previous seasons I started planning decks before the next round opened by just looking at the results. I guess if you're checking here frequently and making the declaration quickly then it doesn't really matter.

That said, I do appreciate that Flailing Manticore is banned. I was almost certainly going to play it this round, but I didn't really want to.

So, I asked while posting the round if anyone had strong reservations about my proposal (test out 2 rounds of a new banning system, and to argue and vote afterwards), and you were the only one who commented on it, while everyone posted. So I decided to go on with it.

The other banning system (systematic bans of each cards in deck that post a minimal score) has been tested, so it is hard to compare just by theory crafting.

I do take note that there are already three people that appreciate not having a R2: the flailing manticore (whether playing it or against it). I also do see that there seem to be a shared dislike of the arbitrary.
In this case I do value arbitration over systematic, but let's see what is decided by all after R3.
For next round I will try to explain the reasons behind each ban, maybe that will help?

[Wrath of Pie]

I don't think anyone is going to miss Flailing Manticore. (Really, backbuild win conditions can be far more ridiculous.)

[FTW]

I also do see that there seem to be a shared dislike of the arbitrary.

Explanations would help for next round.

My disagreement is over the relevance of bans to strategic diversity. Because Leyline and Noxious are free turn 0 plays, they're strategically different from the other similar effects. They enable much more than you get with Ivory Mask and Reclaim. Although Leyline and Noxious weren't explicitly used in matches, submissions had to play around that protection in deck construction (Aura Thief, Kiora's Dismissal, Detection Tower, Shivan Gorge instead of targeting), so they were very relevant to the round results. That's different from Blinkmoth Infusion, a filler card.

For Veldt, there are other lands with that effect, but few. Especially once you consider colored mana requirements. Banning Timberland Ruins doesn't change much, but banning Veldt means there's only 1 green slowland and 1 white slowland. If either of those get banned next, you get shut out of a color, forcing different win conditions and different interaction. That only takes 2 bans for a major strategic effect. Saying there's no point in banning 1 because it would take 2 bans to see format change makes no sense to me. 2 bans happen quickly. Colors matter. If you never ban them, there's even more repetitiveness.

I think it deserves more discussion after the next 1-2 rounds.

[dte]

Explanations would help for next round.

My disagreement is over the relevance of bans to strategic diversity. Because Leyline and Noxious are free turn 0 plays, they're strategically different from the other similar effects. They enable much more than you get with Ivory Mask and Reclaim. Although Leyline and Noxious weren't explicitly used in matches, submissions had to play around that protection in deck construction (Aura Thief, Kiora's Dismissal, Detection Tower, Shivan Gorge instead of targeting), so they were very relevant to the round results. That's different from Blinkmoth Infusion, a filler card.

For Veldt, there are other lands with that effect, but few. Especially once you consider colored mana requirements. Banning Timberland Ruins doesn't change much, but banning Veldt means there's only 1 green slowland and 1 white slowland. If either of those get banned next, you get shut out of a color, forcing different win conditions and different interaction. That only takes 2 bans for a major strategic effect. Saying there's no point in banning 1 because it would take 2 bans to see format change makes no sense to me. 2 bans happen quickly. Colors matter. If you never ban them, there's even more repetitiveness.


I agree for noxious and leyline, I just thought someone may want to play them? No one did, it was the sample deck. They had to be banned on R1, to avoid players mimicking the sample deck too hard, but players can enjoy them now.

For Veldt or lands in general, it is more that why a whole color could be removed, because one deck happened to play it? Many decks can play veldt and be all different, I doubt that decks playing flailing soldier or helix pinnacle would be extremely different from each others. So it is not that there is no point in banning veldt, it is that I think it is a very counterproductive point.


I think it deserves more discussion after the next 1-2 rounds.

Fully agree! Even if we revert to the old system afterwards, I think it is worth trying. It does not change completely the game, I do think the only relevant difference for round 2 is the ban of flailing manticore, which seemed to be appreciated. A compact banlist may also be appreciated later, if it continues.

[jfb1337]

Nope, crypt/donate was actually a boogeyman of the last season.

(Note that for those here from the 3CB subreddit, this rule is different from the rule used over there)

[dte]

(Note that for those here from the 3CB subreddit, this rule is different from the rule used over there)

How does it work there?

[jfb1337]

How does it work there?

Randomness works against the owner rather than the controller

[Raketenudo]

The round 2 has started and the rules are:
1) each round, cards would be banned to prevent an identical strategy as any deck that have been scoring over 3 SP. Banning system to be re-discussed after round 3.
2) if you play a card on the banning list, your deck is illegal.

I like those Ban rules. I trust your judgement to choose those cards.

[Reeplcheep]

11 Wrath of Pie Forbidden Orchard , Flailing Soldier, Archangel's Light , Blinkmoth Infusion GT 11
My 2/2 Soldier doesn't race your 2/2 Ogre + 1/1 Spirit, but your Ogre would die if it attacks, and then my two 1/1 Spirits can't get in. DD


44 - WW
13 Silkster Timberland Ruins, Timberland Ruins , Heartless Summoning , Flailing Ogre GT 14 - DD - I wasn't expecting a Flailing Ogre sighting! We actually stare, because Heartless Summoning kills Spirits from Forbidden Orchard, but the result is the same.

[jfb1337]

Too bad forbidden orchard was banned round 1; as I had a very silly idea involving it that had a GT in the 1000s that would have required writing a program to calculate precisely.

[FTW]

Aha, I was thinking I needed to use my other land to take counters off of Mage-Ring Network but I don't, will remove 2 turns from every calculation:

Make 7 mana with Mage-Ring Network + Land Cap on my turn 14, play Diamond Kaleidoscope and activate making 1 Prism token. After that I need to activate the Kaleidoscope another 21 times so that I can sacrifice 2 Prisms to make GG and keep 20 creatures for Epic Struggle. The first 20 times I need to store 3 mana and use Kaleidoscope (which involves tapping). Each of those takes 6 turns. Putting me to turn 140 to get to 21 Prisms. Then I take 10 turns to build 5 mana with Mage-Ring Network + Land Cap to create the 22nd Prism while leaving me 2 mana to cast Epic Struggle (along with 2 Prisms) on my turn 150, winning on my turn 151

That puts me to GT 151, which means I W vs dte but all other results are the same

I've got GT143.

Doesn't affect any matchups, but the math may matter in future rounds?

You can always remove colorless mana on the turn that Land Cap stays tapped. At the end, you can tap lands for mana without charging.
T2 charge 1 counter
T4 2 counters
T6 3 counters
T8 4 counters
T9 cast Diamond Kaleidoscope (0 counters)
T10 1 counter
T12 2 counters
T14 3 counters
T15 make 0/1 Prism (0 counters)
...
T141 make 22nd Prism (6 turns per prism)
T142 Tap both lands normally & sacrifice 2 prisms: 1UGG. Cast Epic Struggle.
T143 win on upkeep

dte thought in the 130s because I originally submitted the same deck with different lands and math, but my lands were slightly faster. You must use Prisms for GG, which is a bit slower.

[Wrath of Pie]

Too bad forbidden orchard was banned round 1; as I had a very silly idea involving it that had a GT in the 1000s that would have required writing a program to calculate precisely.
I'm interested in what this is, but I assume the other cards are relevant tech, so I'll try to remember this when the season ends.

Lotus Petal being banned did sadden me a bit, if only because that means I can't build a hand to specifically beat it and virtually nothing else because it wasn't top three. (This probably means that dte was wise to ban it, naturally.)

[silkster]

13 Silkster Timberland Ruins, Timberland Ruins, Heartless Summoning, Flailing Ogre GT 14 - DD - I wasn't expecting a Flailing Ogre sighting! We actually stare, because Heartless Summoning kills Spirits from Forbidden Orchard, but the result is the same.
Oh, that's hilarious. Thanks for pointing it out. I wondered for a moment if Heartless Summoning would mess with anything, but I couldn't think of anything and promptly forgot about it. It's unfortunate that I can just hold the 2 mana to kill the soldier. I almost had the perfect counter to Forbidden Orchard.

[BirdsOfParadise]

Reepicheep, shouldn’t I LL to you (WW with deck swap) in round 1? Either I play Flailing Soldier and you kill it and then Covetous Urge it from my GY, or I don’t play Flailing Soldier and you Covetous Urge it from my hand. Once you have my soldier in play I can’t kill it with a mere Lotus petal. I don’t think that Covetous urge being unable to work on Phage actually lets you off the hook — or am I missing something?

[silkster]

Reepicheep, shouldn’t I LL to you (WW with deck swap) in round 1? Either I play Flailing Soldier and you kill it and then Covetous Urge it from my GY, or I don’t play Flailing Soldier and you Covetous Urge it from my hand. Once you have my soldier in play I can’t kill it with a mere Lotus petal. I don’t think that Covetous urge being unable to work on Phage actually lets you off the hook — or am I missing something?

Yeah, that's right. Most of us missed that at first, but when RoosterCocoa noticed I thought they changed them all, but it seems that yours was missed. I went ahead and changed it now. Fortunately, this doesn't change any bans or the top 3 decks (not that we would change it now that the next round is already open).

[Dooey]

Reepicheep, shouldn’t I LL to you (WW with deck swap) in round 1? Either I play Flailing Soldier and you kill it and then Covetous Urge it from my GY, or I don’t play Flailing Soldier and you Covetous Urge it from my hand. Once you have my soldier in play I can’t kill it with a mere Lotus petal. I don’t think that Covetous urge being unable to work on Phage actually lets you off the hook — or am I missing something?

Huh, I also didn't notice urge can hit graveyards. This means my casting One with Nothing doesn't give me a draw after all and I should get 4 more points in that match. I believe this bumps me from tied for 5th to regular 5th. I updated the sheet.

[dte]

24 h remaining, and missing only Silkster and Raketenudo!

[silkster]

24 h remaining, and missing only Silkster and Raketenudo!

I just submitted.

I like the creativity that this season has been offering and I'm worried that the decks that I didn't submit might not be usable again later. Oh well, I'm sure other silly things will come up. I'm still blown away by Treasure Map + Hallowed Ground, both cards I know (I even own several copies of one of them), but I just wasn't going to think of it. Likewise for Copy Enchantment + Detection Tower + Covetous Urge.

Also, I just noticed that Roiling Vortex passed the ban threshold in the update. Obviously it's way past banning now, but I wonder if it should be banned for round 3.

Edit from 3 hours later: I was afraid of submitting early and revealing my ideas and then finding something better. I wasn't even trying to think of a better deck, but I just napped and dreamt of a deck that was much better... for round 1. :laugh::frown:

[dte]

As far as I can see, not a single submission out of the 15 I received is a deck that is able to win vs 4 x wastes.
I think it is problem, leading to a lot of draws. With your scores, could you please rank these 3 options using "=", ">", "<"?
A. no change, I disagree it is a problem.
B. Has to beat 3 target decks instead of 1.
C. Decks have to beat 4 x wastes additionally to 1 of the target decks.
D. Other solution (say which).
I am personally on: B=C>>A

And here are all the decks!
Also fill here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nDiaVIAqBE43moQknP8nB8Lq7JDTunJ60bG8m4YrHA4/edit#gid=1710229930

dte (TO): rhystic cave,drifter il-dal,final fortune,summoner's pact, GT11
Wrath of Pie: Halls of Mist, Hollow Trees, Living Plane, Eternal Dominion GT:26
Symbi: Rhystic Cave, drifter il-dal, Mana Crypt, Arcane Signet GT:11
GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Dark Ritual, Covetous Urge, Mana Crypt GT NA
FourDogsinaHorseSuit : Mercadian BazaarWild EvocationExert Influence Pendelhaven GT NA
jfb1337: Mage-ring network, River Delta, Worst Fears,Summoner's Pact GT NA
FTW: Subterranean Hangar, Ostracize, Mortivore,Satyr's Cunning GT 27 (only if opponent has creature card)
Alphastryk:Svyelunite Temple, Saprazzan Skerry,Dominate, Covetous Urge GT: N/A
Reeplcheep: Lava Tubes, Cabal Pit, Word of Command,Word of Command, GT: N/A
Dooey:Gateway Plaza, Fetid Heath, Dread Fugue,Animate Dead, GT: N/A
RoosterCocoa: Skemfar Elderhall, Dreadship Reef, Wolfcaller's Howl, Piracy, GT: N/A
BirdsOfParadise: Ancient Tomb, Mox Emerald, Saproling Cluster, Street Wraith GT 21
silkster: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Brainwash, Bandage, GT: 20 + opponent's upkeep
Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp GT c. 45

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Ban wastes. Too stronk

[dte]

dte (TO): rhystic cave,drifter il-dal,final fortune,summoner's pact, GT11
Me, on an unimaginative 2CB deck.

Wrath of Pie: Halls of Mist, Hollow Trees, Living Plane, Eternal Dominion GT:26
6-0. You kill me with hollow trees.
6

Symbi: Rhystic Cave, drifter il-dal, Mana Crypt, Arcane Signet GT:11
2-2, mirror.
8

GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Dark Ritual, Covetous Urge, Mana Crypt GT NA
2-2. You steal my drifter, but cannot keep it. Ballsy to play a T1 deck!
10

FourDogsinaHorseSuit : Mercadian BazaarWild EvocationExert Influence Pendelhaven GT NA
2-2. You can steal my drifter, but cannot keep it.
Edit: 6-0, I lost after trying to win by playing two turns in a row and failing to win.
12

jfb1337: Mage-ring network, River Delta, Worst Fears,Summoner's Pact GT NA
6-0. My worst fears are to be forced to play a pact.
18

FTW: Subterranean Hangar, Ostracize, Mortivore,Satyr's Cunning GT 27 (only if opponent has creature card)
6-0, Mortivore beats me.
24

Alphastryk:Svyelunite Temple, Saprazzan Skerry,Dominate, Covetous Urge GT: N/A
2-2, You can steal my drifter, but cannot keep it.
26

Reeplcheep: Lava Tubes, Cabal Pit, Word of Command,Word of Command, GT: N/A
6-0. You command the pact.
32

Dooey:Gateway Plaza, Fetid Heath, Dread Fugue,Animate Dead, GT: N/A
6-0. You animate my drifter and kill me with it.
38

RoosterCocoa: Skemfar Elderhall, Dreadship Reef, Wolfcaller's Howl, Piracy, GT: N/A
2-2 I guess?
40

BirdsOfParadise: Ancient Tomb, Mox Emerald, Saproling Cluster, Street Wraith GT 21
2-2. You cannot prevent me to make a token, but you can prevent a second one.
42

silkster: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Brainwash, Bandage, GT: 20 + opponent's upkeep
0-6. Drifter is too fast :/
42

Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp GT c. 45
6-0, death by Imp
48
Edit:52

[Wrath of Pie]

As far as I can see, not a single submission out of the 15 I received is a deck that is able to win vs 4 x wastes.
I think it is problem, leading to a lot of draws. With your scores, could you please rank these 3 options using "=", ">", "<"?
A. no change, I disagree it is a problem.
B. Has to beat 3 target decks instead of 1.
C. Decks have to beat 4 x wastes additionally to 1 of the target decks.
D. Other solution (say which).
I am personally on: B=C>>A

Honestly, the draws are not a problem because it's a feature.

(Also, this is the real reason Backbuild is dumb, because what you have to beat is debated ad nauseam and there is no real solution other than "don't play Backbuild.")

[dte]

Honestly, the draws are not a problem because it's a feature.

(Also, this is the real reason Backbuild is dumb, because what you have to beat is debated ad nauseam and there is no real solution other than "don't play Backbuild.")

I don't see why we cannot try to improve on that :)

[FTW]

FTW: Subterranean Hangar, Ostracize, Mortivore,Satyr's Cunning GT 27 (only if opponent has creature card)

dte (TO): You have a creature. WW 0-6
Wrath of Pie: I can't win. You have more lands and can store long enough to pay Hall's upkeeps. LL 6-0
Symbi: You have a creature. WW 0-6
GoblinSmashmaster: You can cast my Satyr and win. LL 6-0
FourDogsinaHorseSuit : If you don't cast Invocation, I can't win. DD 2-2
jfb1337: Neither of us can win. DD 2-2
Alphastryk: You can cast my Satyr and win. LL 6-0
Reeplcheep: Neither of us can win. DD 2-2
Dooey: Neither of us can win. DD 2-2
RoosterCocoa: I can avoid losing by playing a land. DD 2-2
BirdsOfParadise: Clever deck! If you play Cluster, you have 1 token and I have 3. If you don't, I Ostracize Street Wraith and win with Mortivore. WW 0-6
silkster: I can't deal you any damage. LL 6-0
Asthereal: Imp returns? I did not metagame for this! Turn 3 Ostracize races your Imp and I win. WW 0-6

This LL against just about every remaining deck from last week (except the ones scoring <1 pt). Did not expect to see Teferi's Imp again!!

34 points (8 loss, 10 draw, 8 win)

I vote for B. I think it will lead to more interesting decks than just targeting 1 land in 1 of 3 decks.

[Reeplcheep]

Reeplcheep: Lava Tubes, Cabal Pit, Word of Command,Word of Command, GT: N/A
Forbidden Orchard means this is the only round Word of Command would work. I ran it for the memes even if would probably result in ties. All I can do is force you to play 2 of your cards.

I think the quirk of forbidden orchard is why there were so many GT N/A decks and we won’t see it as much in future rounds. A>B>>C. Scoring already punishes DD & DD over WW & LL. Also, preemptively banning the other flailing creature made these types of decks much less risky.

dte (TO): rhystic cave,drifter il-dal,final fortune,summoner's pact, GT11
I force you to pact. WW 0-6

Wrath of Pie: Halls of Mist, Hollow Trees, Living Plane, Eternal Dominion GT:26
I can’t force you to cast living plane if you don’t tick up trees. DD 2-2

Symbi: Rhystic Cave, drifter il-dal, Mana Crypt, Arcane Signet GT:11
See below.

GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Dark Ritual, Covetous Urge, Mana Crypt GT NA
I’m still confused how mana crypt works when I force them to cast it.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit : Mercadian BazaarWild EvocationExert Influence Pendelhaven GT NA
I’m not sure how this beats the sample deck since you will always expert with converge = 0.

jfb1337: Mage-ring network, River Delta, Worst Fears,Summoner's Pact GT NA
Word of Command is too strong when opponents have a bunch of pacts. WW 0-6

FTW: Subterranean Hangar, Ostracize, Mortivore,Satyr's Cunning GT 27 (only if opponent has creature card)
Nice anti meta deck. DD 2-2

Alphastryk:Svyelunite Temple, Saprazzan Skerry,Dominate, Covetous Urge GT: N/A
DD 2-2

Dooey:Gateway Plaza, Fetid Heath, Dread Fugue,Animate Dead, GT: N/A
A nice anti meta deck. DD 2-2

RoosterCocoa: Skemfar Elderhall, Dreadship Reef, Wolfcaller's Howl, Piracy, GT: N/A
I make you piracy yourself. I don’t see how this beats the sample decks if they play a land but don’t tap it. DD 2-2?

BirdsOfParadise: Ancient Tomb, Mox Emerald, Saproling Cluster, Street Wraith GT 21
It takes me 2 WoC s to force you to play out your mana. But I have more mana than you. DD 2-2

silkster: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Brainwash, Bandage, GT: 20 + opponent's upkeep
Cabal pit means I can’t beat barbed wire. LL 6-0

Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp GT c. 45
I can’t stop the imp. LL 0-6

4W 12 D 4 L for 24/60 ?

[FTW]

RoosterCocoa: Skemfar Elderhall, Dreadship Reef, Wolfcaller's Howl, Piracy, GT: N/A
I make you piracy yourself. I don’t see how this beats the sample decks if they play a land but don’t tap it. DD 2-2?

Howl forces the land to be played, then Piracy can tap it for green to activate Elderhall. Word of Command would work too.

[silkster]

Round: Hope your opponent gives you the tools to kill them.


dte (TO): rhystic cave,drifter il-dal,final fortune,summoner's pact, GT11
LL, 6-0. Can't stop the cave. Edit: I understood that jfb1337 played Summoner's Pact for the mirror, but I didn't realize it while reading your deck. That's cool that you played around Worst Fears. Or maybe you were playing around Word of Command.

Wrath of Pie: Halls of Mist, Hollow Trees, Living Plane, Eternal Dominion GT:26
LL, 6-0. If I play Barbed Wire, you wait until we're I'm up 4-3, then play Hollow Trees and attack for 1. If I block, you can attack next turn to win. If I don't block and I attack back, you can attack with the Trees to win.
If I don't play Barbed Wire, you have all the time in the world to save up mana and then you get to attack with the Halls first.

Symbi: Rhystic Cave, drifter il-dal, Mana Crypt, Arcane Signet GT:11
LL, 6-0. Edit 2: Oh, the Mana Crypt is to beat the Soldier and also lose to Word of Command. Or at least it gets to do that here. Nice.

GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Dark Ritual, Covetous Urge, Mana Crypt GT NA
WD, 1-4. Turn 1 discard.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit : Mercadian BazaarWild EvocationExert Influence Pendelhaven GT NA
WW, 0-6

jfb1337: Mage-ring network, River Delta, Worst Fears,Summoner's Pact GT NA
WW, 0-6.

FTW: Subterranean Hangar, Ostracize, Mortivore,Satyr's Cunning GT 27 (only if opponent has creature card)
WW, 0-6.

Alphastryk:Svyelunite Temple, Saprazzan Skerry,Dominate, Covetous Urge GT: N/A
WW, 0-6.

Reeplcheep: Lava Tubes, Cabal Pit, Word of Command,Word of Command, GT: N/A
WW, 0-6. Oh, I can kill you. Wow.

Dooey:Gateway Plaza, Fetid Heath, Dread Fugue,Animate Dead, GT: N/A
WW, 0-6.

RoosterCocoa: Skemfar Elderhall, Dreadship Reef, Wolfcaller's Howl, Piracy, GT: N/A
WW, 0-6

BirdsOfParadise: Ancient Tomb, Mox Emerald, Saproling Cluster, Street Wraith GT 21
LL, 6-0. I had been planning to submit Saproling Cluster all week until last night.

silkster: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Brainwash, Bandage, GT: 20 + opponent's upkeep
Me, carefully using one of the most powerful lands ever printed in order to be unable to pay for Saproling Cluster or Rhystic Cave.

Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp GT c. 45
LL, 6-0. You need to take 3 damage from the City to play the imp, and by 8 turns later you're ahead on life, so Barbed Wire isn't enough pressure.

16W, 1D, 9L = 31. I grossly misread my card somehow. I swear I read it a dozen times last week. Oh well.

A>B>>C, though it depends a little on what gets banned this week.

Rainbow Vale and Forbidden Orchard are truly terrible, and they allowed people to do basically nothing and also lose to the opponent giving them mana or making the creature for them. As long as a large pile of these cards get banned, I think it'll be fine going forward. If we want to make sure our decks beat 4x Wastes, I almost feel at this point that that's worth its own season.

[BirdsOfParadise]

Editing to make thread readable. Thanks for the answers!

Q: Reep, how do you WW against any of the target decks if they refuse to play a land drop?
A: Word of Command works on lands. Reep forces the Orchard deck to play Orchard and then forces it to play Flailing Soldier.

Q: Silkster, which target deck do you beat? I’m confused since you can’t shrink a Flailing creature.
A: Brainwash isn’t a brick, it lets Silkster win against the Rainbow Vale version of the Flailing Soldier deck.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I have no prefrence on the draw state


FourDogs: I beat the target deck by overcharging up my Storage land so that I can set the creature's P/T to 1/1. Activte pendlehaven to make it a 2/3. Then I can make it a 0/1 (and save two mana to stop op from changing it back) Only then can I target and steal it with my Converge Control Magic.

dte (TO): Nice final fortune. WW
Wrath of Pie: Pendlehaven: Mirror Breaker WW
Symbi: I assume Signet makes no mana? WW
GoblinSmashmaster: No wincon from you? DD from me (first points!)
jfb1337: Nice Summoner's Pact. WW
FTW:I have no creatures for Mortivore and I'm not going to let you cast the Satyr's Cunning DD
Alphastryk: Nothing to dominate: DD
Reeplcheep: Nothing to command: DD
Dooey:Nothing to reanimate: DD
RoosterCocoa: I'll play the land that doesn't make green and then I won't have 4 cards in hand, which means you can't make any woolves. DD
BirdsOfParadise: DD. I win if you cast burst (you can make 1 1/1. I can make 1 backed by pendlehaven), I lose if I go for evokation (I can make either 1 with pendlehaven, or 2 1/1s without it. Resolved Street Wraith beats both). So we spend infinite turns hopping the other takes a step towards any plan. DD
Silkster: I can't interact with the wire. LL (!!!!)
Asthereal: I can't beat a Teferi's Imp. LL
8-4-14
26 points

[silkster]

Reep, how do you WW against any of the target decks if they refuse to play a land drop?

Silkster, which target deck do you beat? I’m confused since you can’t shrink a Flailing creature.

Word of Command can choose Forbidden Orchard. The next Word of Command can choose the Flailing Soldier. Tapping the land pre-emptively to stop the casting of Flailing Soldier doesn't help.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

FourDogsinaHorseSuit : Mercadian BazaarWild EvocationExert Influence Pendelhaven GT NA
LL, 6-0. You can force me cast Barbed Wire and then defend yourself from it. It took me a while to realize why you need the Pendelhaven, and I'm glad I puzzled it out cause it's hilarious. I got lucky with my win
How do I protect myself from Barbed Wire? Only you can pay the 2.

[Reeplcheep]

Reep, how do you WW against any of the target decks if they refuse to play a land drop?

Silkster, which target deck do you beat? I’m confused since you can’t shrink a Flailing creature.

Word of Command forces the opponent to play a card, so the first one forces the opponent to play the orchard. The second makes them tap it.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

FourDogsinaHorseSuit : Mercadian BazaarWild EvocationExert Influence Pendelhaven GT NA
I’m not sure how this beats the sample deck since you will always expert with converge = 0.

Find a way to make it flail to 1/1 (so storage land up to like 10 or so counters) -> Pendlehaven it to a 2/3. Flail it to a 0/1. -> Gain control.

[dte]

A>B>>C, though it depends on what gets banned this week.

Rainbow Vale and Forbidden Orchard are truly terrible, and they allowed people to do basically nothing and also lose to the opponent giving them mana or making the creature for them. As long as a large pile of these cards get banned, I think it'll be fine going forward. If we want to make sure our decks beat 4x Wastes, I almost feel at this point that that's worth its own season.

Do you think that rhystic cave is better?
Also, I think 4dogs is right, and that changes a few of your MUs.


Silkster, which target deck do you beat? I’m confused since you can’t shrink a Flailing creature.

Silks wins against the rainbow vale deck, by brainwashing an eventual soldier.


Find a way to make it flail to 1/1 (so storage land up to like 10 or so counters) -> Pendlehaven it to a 2/3. Flail it to a 0/1. -> Gain control.

That was truly beautiful btw.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

dte (TO): rhystic cave,drifter il-dal,final fortune,summoner's pact, GT11\
FourDogsinaHorseSuit : Mercadian BazaarWild EvocationExert Influence Pendelhaven GT NA
2-2. You can steal my drifter, but cannot keep it.
12

I cannot. But I can make you cast either of your spells that say "lose the game"

[silkster]

How do I protect myself from Barbed Wire? Only you can pay the 2.

Oh Damn. Hold on.

[dte]

I cannot. But I can make you cast either of your spells that say "lose the game"

True!
Thanks, I edit my post.

[GoblinSmashmaster]

GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "Can't win"

dte (TO): rhystic cave,drifter il-dal,final fortune,summoner's pact, GT11
Can't win 2-2

Wrath of Pie: Halls of Mist, Hollow Trees, Living Plane, Eternal Dominion GT:26
Can't win 2-2

Symbi: Rhystic Cave, drifter il-dal, Mana Crypt, Arcane Signet GT:11
Can't win 2-2

GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Dark Ritual, Covetous Urge, Mana Crypt GT NA
That's me, playing a legal deck!

FourDogsinaHorseSuit : Mercadian BazaarWild EvocationExert Influence Pendelhaven GT NA
Can't win 2-2

jfb1337: Mage-ring network, River Delta, Worst Fears,Summoner's Pact GT NA
Can't win 2-2

FTW: Subterranean Hangar, Ostracize, Mortivore,Satyr's Cunning GT 27 (only if opponent has creature card)
Satyr smash! I won :| 0-6

Alphastryk:Svyelunite Temple, Saprazzan Skerry,Dominate, Covetous Urge GT: N/A
Can't win 2-2

Reeplcheep: Lava Tubes, Cabal Pit, Word of Command,Word of Command, GT: N/A
Crypt :( 6-0

Dooey:Gateway Plaza, Fetid Heath, Dread Fugue,Animate Dead, GT: N/A
Can't win 2-2

RoosterCocoa: Skemfar Elderhall, Dreadship Reef, Wolfcaller's Howl, Piracy, GT: N/A
Can't win 2-2

BirdsOfParadise: Ancient Tomb, Mox Emerald, Saproling Cluster, Street Wraith GT 21
Can't win 2-2

silkster: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Brainwash, Bandage, GT: 20 + opponent's upkeep
Barbed Wire 4-1

Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp GT c. 45[/QUOTE]
Can't win 2-2

Total: 30 points

[Reeplcheep]

Howl forces the land to be played, then Piracy can tap it for green to activate Elderhall. Word of Command would work too.

Cool deck, but doesn’t piracy only let you use it to cast spells? Or can he float the mana?

[FTW]

Cool deck, but doesn’t piracy only let you use it to cast spells? Or can he float the mana?

Gatherer errata is
"Until end of turn, you may tap lands you don't control for mana. Spend this mana only to cast spells."

So you can activate the mana ability, then not be able to spend it. That's still enough to gain control of Rainbow Vale, then use Rainbow Vale to activate Elderfall.
If you activate opponent's Orchard, unsure who gets the token.

[alphastryk]

Backbuild is weird and I'm not really surprised a large number of entries can't beat a literal goldfish. Not sure that's truly solvable or just the reality of backbuild.

Lets see how many draws there are given none of us can beat 4x Wastes

dte (TO): rhystic cave,drifter il-dal,final fortune,summoner's pact, GT11
Either you play out Drifter and I can stop your Cave to kill it or you hold it and I can steal it with Urge but not keep it. DD

2-2

Wrath of Pie: Halls of Mist, Hollow Trees, Living Plane, Eternal Dominion GT:26
I can always take your Living Plane with Urge before you can cast it to force the draw DD

2-2

Symbi: Rhystic Cave, drifter il-dal, Mana Crypt, Arcane Signet GT:11
Either you play out Drifter and I can stop your Cave to kill it or you hold it and I can steal it with Urge but not keep it. DD

2-2

GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Dark Ritual, Covetous Urge, Mana Crypt GT NA
No win conditions. DD

2-2

FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Mercadian BazaarWild EvocationExert Influence Pendelhaven GT NA
No win conditions. DD

2-2

jfb1337: Mage-ring network, River Delta, Worst Fears,Summoner's Pact GT NA
No win conditions. DD

2-2

FTW: Subterranean Hangar, Ostracize, Mortivore,Satyr's Cunning GT 27 (only if opponent has creature card)
I'm able to steal your Satyr that you can't even cast and beat you with it - nice tech. WW

0-6

alphastryk: Svyelunite Temple, Saprazzan Skerry,Dominate, Covetous Urge GT: N/A
me

Reeplcheep: Lava Tubes, Cabal Pit, Word of Command, Word of Command, GT: N/A
I need to revisit how Word of Command works but can't the target decks all force a draw by holding their lands I didn't think you could force people to play lands with Word? Thats why I ended up with Covetous Urge. Either way, neither of us can win without the opponent having a threat to steal. DD

2-2

Dooey: Gateway Plaza, Fetid Heath, Dread Fugue,Animate Dead, GT: N/A
No win conditions. DD

2-2

RoosterCocoa: Skemfar Elderhall, Dreadship Reef, Wolfcaller's Howl, Piracy, GT: N/A
You can never produce green mana and I cannot Urge your Howl and still be able to cast it. DD

2-2

BirdsOfParadise: Ancient Tomb, Mox Emerald, Saproling Cluster, Street Wraith GT 21
If you play out Cluster, you lose. If you hold it I can take it with Urge (and even cast it) but then I lose. Stare. DD

2-2

silkster: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Brainwash, Bandage, GT: 20 + opponent's upkeep
I cannot stop your Barbed Wire. LL

6-0

Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp GT c. 45[/QUOTE]
I'm always able to Urge on my turn 3 just before you can cast the Imp I can't Dominate on your turn 4, forcing the draw. DD

2-2

Total: 28 points

[Symbi]

Option ranking: C>B>>A

1. dte (TO): rhystic cave,drifter il-dal,final fortune,summoner's pact, GT11

Basically the same deck as my one. Note that due to how timing rules work, it is impossible to pay for a rhystic cave with a rhystic cave. However, it doesn't matter here as our creatures just trade. If I play mana crypt to kill your creature, I will die to crypt first. DD 2-2
0+2=2

2. Wrath of Pie: Halls of Mist, Hollow Trees, Living Plane, Eternal Dominion GT:26

You can kill my creature, but I get a hit in first, meaning you will lose the damage race if you play the living plane. dte is wrong here as living plane is symmetric so they will have a blocker DD 2-2
2+2=4

3. Symbi: Rhystic Cave, drifter il-dal, Mana Crypt, Arcane Signet GT:11

That's me!

4. GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Dark Ritual, Covetous Urge, Mana Crypt GT NA

You can take my creature, but can't keep it. If I play it first, you kill it but can't win from there. DD 2-2
4+2=6

5. FourDogsinaHorseSuit : Mercadian Bazaar,Wild Evocation,Exert Influence, Pendelhaven GT NA

Oh no! My mana crypt! LL 6-0
6+6=12

6. jfb1337: Mage-ring network, River Delta, Worst Fears,Summoner's Pact GT NA

Oh no! My mana crypt! LL 6-0
12+6=18

7. FTW: Subterranean Hangar, Ostracize, Mortivore,Satyr's Cunning GT 27 (only if opponent has creature card)

You ostracize or kill my creature, then beat down with mortivore. LL 6-0
18+6=24

8. Alphastryk:Svyelunite Temple, Saprazzan Skerry,Dominate, Covetous Urge GT: N/A

You take my creature, but you can't keep it. DD 2-2
24+2=26

9. Reeplcheep: Lava Tubes, Cabal Pit, Word of Command,Word of Command, GT: N/A

Oh no! My mana crypt! LL 6-0
26+6=32

10. Dooey:Gateway Plaza, Fetid Heath, Dread Fugue,Animate Dead, GT: N/A

You kill or dread fugue my creature and reanimate it, using gateway plaza for the upkeep cost. LL 6-0
32+6=38

11. RoosterCocoa: Skemfar Elderhall, Dreadship Reef, Wolfcaller's Howl, Piracy, GT: N/A

You can kill my creature, but you can't win. DD 2-2
38+2=40

12. BirdsOfParadise: Ancient Tomb, Mox Emerald, Saproling Cluster, Street Wraith GT 21

You can kill my creature, but you can't win with the cluster as I get to make a saproling as well. DD 2-2
40+2=42

13. silkster: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Brainwash, Bandage, GT: 20 + opponent's upkeep

You can't pay for rhystic cave. WW 0-6
42+0=42

14. Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp GT c. 45

This deck can beat 4 wastes (as does silkster's). And also my deck. LL 6-0
42+6=48

Total score: 48

P.S. Is there a better way to type these up than manually adding card tags to everything?

[dte]

P.S. Is there a better way to type these up than manually adding card tags to everything?

Use "reply with quote" on my post, then delete the beginning and the end. All cards already have the tag.

[Symbi]

Symbi: Rhystic Cave, drifter il-dal, Mana Crypt, Arcane Signet GT:11
LL, 6-0. Edit 2: Oh, the Mana Crypt is to beat the Soldier and also lose to Word of Command. Or at least it gets to do that here. Nice.


Mana crypt doesn't beat the soldier as I will die first, but it was in there to lose to mindslaver effects. I beat the forbidden orchard deck by abusing the fact that it has to give me 2 spirits (one to cast the soldier and the other to pay for cave).

[Dooey]

dte (TO): rhystic cave,drifter il-dal,final fortune,summoner's pact, GT11

I reanimate drifter and kill you with it. WW - 0 points (0 total).

Wrath of Pie: Halls of Mist, Hollow Trees, Living Plane, Eternal Dominion GT:26

I can't win unless you play living plane, so you don't play living plane. DD - 2 points (2 total).

Symbi: Rhystic Cave, drifter il-dal, Mana Crypt, Arcane Signet GT:11

I reanimate drifter and kill you with it. WW - 0 points (2 total).

GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Dark Ritual, Covetous Urge, Mana Crypt GT NA

No threats. DD - 2 points (4 total).

FourDogsinaHorseSuit : Mercadian BazaarWild EvocationExert Influence Pendelhaven GT NA

No threats. DD - 2 points (6 total).

jfb1337: Mage-ring network, River Delta, Worst Fears,Summoner's Pact GT NA

No threats. DD - 2 points (8 total).

FTW: Subterranean Hangar, Ostracize, Mortivore,Satyr's Cunning GT 27 (only if opponent has creature card)

No threats. DD - 2 points (10 total).

Alphastryk:Svyelunite Temple, Saprazzan Skerry,Dominate, Covetous Urge GT: N/A

No threats. DD - 2 points (12 total).

Reeplcheep: Lava Tubes, Cabal Pit, Word of Command,Word of Command, GT: N/A

No threats. DD - 2 points (14 total).

Dooey:Gateway Plaza, Fetid Heath, Dread Fugue,Animate Dead, GT: N/A

It me. 12 total.

RoosterCocoa: Skemfar Elderhall, Dreadship Reef, Wolfcaller's Howl, Piracy, GT: N/A

No threats. DD - 2 points (16 total).

BirdsOfParadise: Ancient Tomb, Mox Emerald, Saproling Cluster, Street Wraith GT 21

Neat deck. I think we stare at each other though. I can't get street wraith into your yard to reanimate, unless you discard it, so you don't. I can't make a saproling unless you play cluster, so you don't. Thus neither of us have a threat. DD - 2 points (18 total)

silkster: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Brainwash, Bandage, GT: 20 + opponent's upkeep

I can't stop the barbed wire kill. LL - 6 points (24 total)

Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp GT c. 45

I can't stop the imp. LL - 6 points (30 total)

My vote for resolving draws is: C>A>>B. If the winners don't have a threat to steal, stealing the opponent's threat isn't viable, and you'll have to bring a threat, so with option A, maybe rounds will alternate between bring the worst thread, and bring the worst version of stealing your opponents threat. I think I prefer a meta of having to bring a threat, but the slowest, weakest, easiest to disrupt threat. Having to beat multiple different decks seems contorted to me, like the most effort for least benefit compared to the other two.

[Wrath of Pie]

I don't see why we cannot try to improve on that :)

Really, no matter what you do you won't be able to escape the draw-fest. Losing to highly specific conditions encourages that as a natural result, so you would have to reduce the specific condition options massively to make that work.

Honestly, the best option is probably option D: having to beat the lowest-scoring hand each round rather than one of the three highest, and requiring a finite goldfish against four blank cards. Probably still a draw-fest, but it's the best you're going to accomplish.

[jfb1337]

jfb1337: Mage-ring network, River Delta, Worst Fears,Summoner's Pact GT NA
Going for the obvious 'force the forbidden orchard deck to give me the win' strat; while teching against the mirror.

dte (TO): rhystic cave,drifter il-dal,final fortune,summoner's pact, GT11
I make you play your pact. WW 0-6.

Wrath of Pie: Halls of Mist, Hollow Trees, Living Plane, Eternal Dominion GT:26
If you play your living plane, I win with my lands. If you never tick up your land to the mana to cast it, I can't do anything. DD 2-2.

Symbi: Rhystic Cave, drifter il-dal, Mana Crypt, Arcane Signet GT:11
I make you play your crypt. WW 0-6.

GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Dark Ritual, Covetous Urge, Mana Crypt GT NA
You discard my worst fears to prevent me from playing your crypt. DD 1-1

FourDogsinaHorseSuit : Mercadian BazaarWild EvocationExert Influence Pendelhaven GT NA
You make me play my pact. LL 6-0.

FTW: Subterranean Hangar, Ostracize, Mortivore,Satyr's Cunning GT 27 (only if opponent has creature card)
Neither of us can win. DD 2-2.

Alphastryk:Svyelunite Temple, Saprazzan Skerry,Dominate, Covetous Urge GT: N/A
Neither of us can win. DD 2-2.

Reeplcheep: Lava Tubes, Cabal Pit, Word of Command,Word of Command, GT: N/A
You make my play my pact. LL 6-0.

Dooey:Gateway Plaza, Fetid Heath, Dread Fugue,Animate Dead, GT: N/A
Neither of us can win. DD 2-2.

RoosterCocoa: Skemfar Elderhall, Dreadship Reef, Wolfcaller's Howl, Piracy, GT: N/A
Neither of us can win. DD 2-2.

BirdsOfParadise: Ancient Tomb, Mox Emerald, Saproling Cluster, Street Wraith GT 21
You make 1 1/1, I make 2 and win. If you don't play the cluster then I make you do so. WW 0-6.

silkster: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Brainwash, Bandage, GT: 20 + opponent's upkeep
You win with barbed wire. LL 6-0.

Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp GT c. 45[/QUOTE]
You win with imp. LL 6-0.

Total: 8L 12D 6W = 36

As for draws, I'll say A>C>B.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

How about if your deck has a goldfish of N/A you automatically lose a draw. So that two self-losing decks each get zero points instead of 2.

[Reeplcheep]

Why is losing to a goldfish a problem but a goldfish turn of 345 is not? The scoring already punishes a bunch of draws, and there are plenty of ways to punish steal decks (there is still 4 pacts and mana vault left). Self-kill vs slow vs no wincon makes an interesting RPS.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Why is losing to a goldfish a problem but a goldfish turn of 345 is not? The scoring already punishes a bunch of draws, and there are plenty of ways to punish steal decks (there is still 4 pacts and mana vault left). Self-kill vs slow vs no wincon makes an interesting RPS.

The rules do not punish you for drawing the game, in fact they reward you for doing so since 1 point is more than 0.

[BirdsOfParadise]

I find it time consuming to validate whether any given deck is legal when there are three different target decks. Therefore I vote D.

D (The one target deck is chosen at random by organizer from previous round’s submissions. I am agnostic as to whether 4x Wastes should be included as a secondary target — as an *and*, not *or*.)

[Wrath of Pie]

I find it time consuming to validate whether any given deck is legal when there are three different target decks. Therefore I vote D.

D (The one target deck is chosen at random by organizer from previous round’s submissions. I am agnostic as to whether 4x Wastes should be included as a secondary target — as an *and*, not *or*.)
4x Wastes changes a lot, and probably shifts the focus toward losing to any damage because all the other strategies can't beat Wastes.

I think the real issue was starting with Veldt, which made Forbidden Orchard actually playable against it (so blame dte and me, basically). Honestly could have probably banned Forbidden Orchard/Rainbow Vale/Rhystic Cave to start with (there's a reason they are Backbuild staples), but it's a bit late for that.

[BirdsOfParadise]

Playing Ancient Tomb, Mox Emerald, Saproling Cluster, Street Wraith.

dte (TO): rhystic cave,drifter il-dal,final fortune,summoner's pact
If I make a token, my mana is locked down and you can make a token, so I don’t win. You can’t win either.
DD (2 pt)

Wrath of Pie: Halls of Mist, Hollow Trees, Living Plane, Eternal Dominion GT:26
You play Hollow Trees and save mana. If I ever make a token, you make tokens to outnumber me. If I do not make a token, you use your win condition.
LL (8 pt)

Symbi: Rhystic Cave, drifter il-dal, Mana Crypt, Arcane Signet GT:11
DD (10 pt)
Same as dte.

GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Dark Ritual, Covetous Urge, Mana Crypt GT NA
If I make token, you go Lotus into 3 tokens. If I don’t, you can’t hurt me.
DD (12 pt)

FourDogsinaHorseSuit : Mercadian BazaarWild EvocationExert Influence Pendelhaven GT NA
As you said, neither of us optimally plays anything.
DD (14 pt)

jfb1337: Mage-ring network, River Delta, Worst Fears,Summoner's Pact GT NA
If I play Cluster, you win. You can force me to play Cluster and cycle Street Wraith, then discard Pact to make a 1/1 and kill me.
LL (20 pt)

FTW: Subterranean Hangar, Ostracize, Mortivore,Satyr's Cunning GT 27 (only if opponent has creature card)
You discard my Street Wraith and win with Mortivore.
LL (26 pt)

Alphastryk:Svyelunite Temple, Saprazzan Skerry,Dominate, Covetous Urge GT: N/A
DD (28 pt)

Reeplcheep: Lava Tubes, Cabal Pit, Word of Command,Word of Command, GT: N/A
DD (30 pt)

Dooey:Gateway Plaza, Fetid Heath, Dread Fugue,Animate Dead, GT: N/A
Too bad for me that your deck can’t make me discard Street Wraith. I was specifically hoping to counter Reanimator.
DD (32 pt)

RoosterCocoa: Skemfar Elderhall, Dreadship Reef, Wolfcaller's Howl, Piracy, GT: N/A
DD, right? (34 pt)

silkster: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Brainwash, Bandage, GT: 20 + opponent's upkeep
Arg. Nice job not making mana.
WW (34 pt)

Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp GT c. 45
LL (40 pt)

Total: 40 pt

[Wrath of Pie]

We're not exchanging hands anymore?

Wrath of Pie: Halls of Mist, Hollow Trees, Living Plane, Eternal Dominion GT:26

dte (TO): rhystic cave,drifter il-dal,final fortune,summoner's pact, GT11 - DD - Hollow Trees is just slow enough to force draws because you can hit with Drifter il-Dal. Also, now I feel silly for trying to make it work with Chronatog Totem (with Mana Crypt, of course) and giving up on it as too good.
Symbi: Rhystic Cave, drifter il-dal, Mana Crypt, Arcane Signet GT:11 - DD
GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Dark Ritual, Covetous Urge, Mana Crypt GT NA - DD - You just exile Living Plane.
FourDogsinaHorseSuit : Mercadian BazaarWild EvocationExert Influence Pendelhaven GT NA - LL
jfb1337: Mage-ring network, River Delta, Worst Fears,Summoner's Pact GT NA - DD
FTW: Subterranean Hangar, Ostracize, Mortivore,Satyr's Cunning GT 27 (only if opponent has creature card) - WW
Alphastryk:Svyelunite Temple, Saprazzan Skerry,Dominate, Covetous Urge GT: N/A - DD - Same as GoblinSmashmaster.
Reeplcheep: Lava Tubes, Cabal Pit, Word of Command,Word of Command, GT: N/A - DD
Dooey:Gateway Plaza, Fetid Heath, Dread Fugue,Animate Dead, GT: N/A - DD
RoosterCocoa: Skemfar Elderhall, Dreadship Reef, Wolfcaller's Howl, Piracy, GT: N/A - DD
BirdsOfParadise: Ancient Tomb, Mox Emerald, Saproling Cluster, Street Wraith GT 21 - WW
silkster: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Brainwash, Bandage, GT: 20 + opponent's upkeep - WW
Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp GT c. 45 - LL

4l16d = 28 points

Well, I couldn't beat two lands, so I guess I set out to do what I wanted. Unfortunately, I couldn't lose to two lands very well. I'm not used to this much not doing anything against blank cards and it cost me badly.

Honestly, I prefer option A, but really if you want to make this interesting it's my option D I proposed earlier.

[RoosterCocoa]

RoosterCocoa: Skemfar Elderhall, Dreadship Reef, Wolfcaller's Howl, Piracy

dte (TO): rhystic cave,drifter il-dal,final fortune,summoner's pact, GT11
Neither of us can win. DD

Wrath of Pie: Halls of Mist, Hollow Trees, Living Plane, Eternal Dominion GT:26
We draw whether you play Living Plane or not. DD

Symbi: Rhystic Cave, drifter il-dal, Mana Crypt, Arcane Signet GT:11
Neither of us can win. DD

GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Dark Ritual, Covetous Urge, Mana Crypt GT NA
My nonland cards aren't useful for you, and I can't win. DD

FourDogsinaHorseSuit : Mercadian BazaarWild EvocationExert Influence Pendelhaven GT NA
Neither of us can win. DD

jfb1337: Mage-ring network, River Delta, Worst Fears,Summoner's Pact GT NA
I can't win, and you can't do anything while controlling me. DD

FTW: Subterranean Hangar, Ostracize, Mortivore,Satyr's Cunning GT 27 (only if opponent has creature card)
Neither of us can win. DD

Alphastryk:Svyelunite Temple, Saprazzan Skerry,Dominate, Covetous Urge GT: N/A
My nonland cards aren't useful for you, and I can't win. DD

Reeplcheep: Lava Tubes, Cabal Pit, Word of Command,Word of Command, GT: N/A
I can't win, and you can't make me cast anything that matters. DD

Dooey:Gateway Plaza, Fetid Heath, Dread Fugue,Animate Dead, GT: N/A
I can't win, you have nothing to animate. DD

BirdsOfParadise: Ancient Tomb, Mox Emerald, Saproling Cluster, Street Wraith GT 21
I can't win, you would lose if you played Saproling Cluster so you don't and we draw. DD

silkster: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Brainwash, Bandage, GT: 20 + opponent's upkeep
I lose to Barbed Wire. LL

Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp GT c. 45
I lose to the Imp. LL

0W 22D 4L = 34

I was too excited at finding Wolfcaller's Howl that I didn't realize it would be better to play a 3cb deck with a Pact. I think C=A>B, but also that most of the problem was likely the lands last round since they made it too easy to win without a wincon so I'd prefer if we waited a round before deciding.

[dte]

So, the scores are in, and it seems that only three decks pass the 3 threshold.
Also, the decks to beat would be rhystic cave / drifter il-dal, and saproling clusters, all decks that cannot win vs a single land (even veldt or city of brass).

Standings for the round:

3,7 dte (TO)
3,7 Symbi
3,1 BirdsOfParadise
2,8 jfb1337
2,6 FTW
2,6 RoosterCocoa
2,4 Silkster
2,3 Dooey
2,3 GoblinSmashmaster
2,2 alphastryk
2,2 Wrath of Pie
2,0 FourDogsinaHorseSuit
2,0 Reeplcheep
0,8 Asthereal

And for the season:

7,2 Silkster
7,2 RoosterCocoa
7,1 BirdsOfParadise
7 Wrath of Pie
6,6 dte (TO)
5,5 Dooey
5,5 Symbi
5,2 jfb1337
4,8 FTW
4,7 alphastryk
4,2 Reeplcheep
2,9 Raketenudo
2,3 GoblinSmashmaster
2 FourDogsinaHorseSuit
1,3 Asthereal

On the votes:
A got liked 3 times and hated 3 times
B got liked twice and hated 3 times
C got liked 4 times and hated 2 times
C would win this.
Also, two D propositions were to change the target decks, which I think is actually a great idea, taking the last two decks as targets.

Before starting the new round, I would like to ask two questions:
- do you prefer C (has to beat 4 wastes) or D (target decks are the last three of previous round instead of first three)?
- would you be ok that bans affect deck that ranked in the first third of the round, rather than above 3?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

What's the number after the comma?

[dte]

What's the number after the comma?

A decimal separator (decimal comma).

The excel sheet is inherited from Asthereal, so I guess Dutch is the default language.
Many languages use a decimal comma rather than a decimal point - here point would be better as in English point is used much more than comma for decimal separators.

Also, please all answer these questions, even to say you do not care:
- do you prefer C (has to beat 4 wastes) or D (target decks are the last three of previous round instead of first three)?
- would you be ok that bans affect deck that ranked in the first third of the round, rather than above 3?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I have no prefrence for C or D, though I am worried if we choose D someone will "shoot the moon" and now we have to beat a very very strong deck.
I also don't care how we do bans.

[Reeplcheep]

On the votes:
A got liked 3 times and hated 3 times
B got liked twice and hated 3 times
C got liked 4 times and hated 2 times
C would win this.
Also, two D propositions were to change the target decks, which I think is actually a great idea, taking the last two decks as targets.

Before starting the new round, I would like to ask two questions:
- do you prefer C (has to beat 4 wastes) or D (target decks are the last three of previous round instead of first three)?
- would you be ok that bans affect deck that ranked in the first third of the round, rather than above 3?

Silkster, reep, Jfb, WoP, Rooster = 5 votes for A?

I prefer C

No, although if D happens that is effectively the same.

Having mana sources is exploitable (see WoPs deck) and these inherently beat steal decks.

[Symbi]

Personally I prefer C. I think the real problem is that people didn't have to run an actual wincon that doesn't fold to the opponent just spending mana or doing other simple game actions that almost any deck can do.

[dte]

Silkster, reep, Jfb, WoP, Rooster = 5 votes for A?

I had WoP as D, and had missed Rooster. It does not change as Rooster was on C=A>B.

[jfb1337]

Another alternative could be "Must beat a deck of 0 cards", or "Must beat a deck of 4 literally blank cards", in order to require a threat but still allow for strategies that punish having too much mana. (which may allow for more variety, making storage land + the slowest possible threat not automatically the best option)

[BirdsOfParadise]

My vote:
C > D

I prefer the smallest possible number of target decks, so 1 is better than 3 for me.

I’m also happy with the suggestions of “target deck has four blank cards” and “organizer chooses one random target deck from among last round’s submissions.”

[FTW]

I don't like C. 4x Wastes is too strong. I would prefer some D at dte's discretion.

D: The target decks could be some modification of the top 3 decks. That way we could preserve the spirit but avoid scenarios where you can pick on one card to play a deck that cannot win. For example, dte could have modified the winning decks to replace Forbidden Orchard with a basic, so that we had to beat Flailing creatures but couldn't pick on Forbidden Orchard with boring decks like mana + Mindslaver.

With the current top decks, you could beat dte's deck with something dumb like
Mana Crypt, Mana Crypt, Black Mana Battery, Word of Command (forcing dte to play Pact and lose to the trigger just before dying to Mana Crypts)

Even though Pact was a filler card in dte's deck, that would satisfy the requirements of beating one of the top 3. That leads to another boring round of DDs between do-nothing decks, or people playing 3CB + Pact to troll the mirror. But if dte could make a small modification to the target decks (e.g. replacing Pact with another card), then we avoid that scenario. I trust dte's judgment to create balanced target decks.

[Wrath of Pie]

If the issue is being draw-heavy, then maybe the ban threshold should be 2.0 rather than 3.0?

Really though, making us have to beat the lowest-scoring hand (which is actually the hand that wins the most under our rules, mirroring what would be done with standard CB) rather than the highest would solve a lot of problems and is a straight upgrade on both B and C. Also, the last round would have been way better having to beat Arc Blade but still somehow trying to lose.

[FTW]

Really though, making us have to beat the lowest-scoring hand (which is actually the hand that wins the most under our rules, mirroring what would be done with standard CB) rather than the highest would solve a lot of problems and is a straight upgrade on both B and C. Also, the last round would have been way better having to beat Arc Blade but still somehow trying to lose.

I like this solution too.

[dte]

FTW's proposition is not feasible for me, as I know the decks I have in mind, so it would not be fair.

On the other hand, having to beat one of the two last decks seems great to me (still last two to avoid "the imitation game").

I count FTW, WoP and myself as preferring this; while BoP, Reep and Symbi prefer to have to beat the wastes additionally to one of the top decks.

Let me know if you disagree and the others voice your choice!

[BirdsOfParadise]

Can I retract my vote for C? Apparently I fail at reading.

I’ll be happy with anything.

[RoosterCocoa]

I prefer having to beat one of the bottom two decks over adding 4x wastes to what we have to beat. I think it will lead to more interesting results, and there's enough bad ways to beat a strategy while being easily disrupted that I don't think the power level will rise too quickly.

[dte]

That makes it 5-2 for the last two decks, so I will close the poll here, to not delay further the start of the next round.

Legality, one of the following decks should be beaten (WW):
Lava Tubes, Cabal Pit, Word of Command,Word of Command
City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp GT c. 45

Bans, the following cards are now banned:
rhystic cave
Saproling Cluster

Of course none of my former ideas beat either of those, so I'll brew something, PM myself, and start the new round ASAP.

[dte]

I PM'ed myself a deck, so round 3 is open!
Deadline Tuesday 30th at 19h.

Legality, one of the following decks should be beaten (WW):
Lava Tubes, Cabal Pit, Word of Command,Word of Command
City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp GT c. 45

Bans, the following cards are now banned:
rhystic cave
Saproling Cluster
These two cards are truly scary, and can be abused in many different context. The other cards of the three winning decks did not seem so crucial. I hesitated to have a crackdown on filler cards, as valorising 3CB did not seem good, but there are too many of them (4 pacts, crypt, mana vault, final fortune * 3, one with nothing, probably many others).

[jfb1337]

The OP should be updated with the new target decks. also, what's the deadline?

[dte]

The OP should be updated with the new target decks. also, what's the deadline?

Oups, sorry, still new at this.
Deadline Tuesday 30th at 19h, I edited previous post and OP.
By default, deadline is every Tuesday at 19h.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Oups, sorry, still new at this.
Deadline Tuesday 30th at 19h, I edited previous post and OP.
By default, deadline is every Tuesday at 19h.

You're doing a great job!

But also you forgot to update scores and link to r2 decks in the OP

[dte]

You're doing a great job!

But also you forgot to update scores and link to r2 decks in the OP

Thanks, and done!

[dte]

A bit over 24 h left for R3, and missing Symbi, FTW, Silkster and Asthereal.

[silkster]

A bit over 24 h left for R3, and missing Symbi, FTW, Silkster and Asthereal.

Last week I way overthought things. I had a really good idea and even submitted it, and then outthought myself in a dream and misremembered and misread a card. Mine was a Saproling Cluster based deck, which would have scored between the top two this round. Though interestingly that isn't even that big of a difference from where I did score, given how flooded with draws we were. In my effort not to overthink it too much, I'm only looking at the round now. :laugh::tongue:

PS: dte, I like the link to the spreadsheet in your signature.

[dte]

A bit over 24 h left for R3, and missing Symbi, FTW, Silkster and Asthereal.

3h to go, missing FTW.

[FTW]

3h to go, missing FTW.

Thanks for the reminder. Will send something in over the next few minutes.

[Wrath of Pie]

Last week I way overthought things. I had a really good idea and even submitted it, and then outthought myself in a dream and misremembered and misread a card. Mine was a Saproling Cluster based deck, which would have scored between the top two this round. Though interestingly that isn't even that big of a difference from where I did score, given how flooded with draws we were. In my effort not to overthink it too much, I'm only looking at the round now. :laugh::tongue:
My entry this week is absurdly hilarious.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

My entry this week is absurdly hilarious.

It better be. If no one is asking "Are you sure you beat the target deck" then did you even submit an entry?

[BirdsOfParadise]

It better be. If no one is asking "Are you sure you beat the target deck" then did you even submit an entry?
“Are you sure that’s a card?”
...
“Are you sure the third paragraph of that card’s text does what you think it does?”
...
“Are you sure rule 637.4.iii(c) applies here?”

[FTW]

It better be. If no one is asking "Are you sure you beat the target deck" then did you even submit an entry?

Is anyone's goldfish turn under 5000?

[jfb1337]

Just waiting for the round where 2 people conspire to throw the round by submitting Leyline of anticipation Black Lotus Thassa's Oracle Memnite in order to make the next few rounds hilarious

[jfb1337]

Is anyone's goldfish turn under 5000?

You guys have goldfish turns?

[FTW]

Just waiting for the round where 2 people conspire to throw the round by submitting Leyline of anticipation Black Lotus Thassa's Oracle Memnite in order to make the next few rounds hilarious

Suboptimal deck playing Memnite over Force of Will. Must be gunning for 2nd last.

[RoosterCocoa]

Suboptimal deck playing Memnite over Force of Will. Must be gunning for 2nd last.

Force of Will? They should be going with Pact of Negation to force through that T0 win!

[dte]

Just waiting for the round where 2 people conspire to throw the round by submitting Leyline of anticipation Black Lotus Thassa's Oracle Memnite in order to make the next few rounds hilarious

Maybe I should create two fake accounts...

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Arc Blade will be back, baby?

[jfb1337]

Suboptimal deck playing Memnite over Force of Will. Must be gunning for 2nd last.

Ah, see that opens itself up to getting beaten by Chancellor of the annex + some wincon based only on lands; which could be made reasonably slow! Instead you've got to force the backbuild players to deal with two threats and provide a threat of their own!

[dte]

Ah, see that opens itself up to getting beaten by Chancellor of the annex + some wincon based only on lands; which could be made reasonably slow! Instead you've got to force the backbuild players to deal with two threats and provide a threat of their own!

Yours dies to FoW + griffin + coveting urge.
FoW + coveting urge * 2 still beats without even beating wastes *4.

I think beating any specific deck is too easy.

[alphastryk]

Clearly the optimal anti-backbuild deck is just Chancellor of the Annex, Cavern of Souls, Black Lotus, Thassa's Oracle

But of course that loses to City of Traitors, Urza's Saga, Chancellor of the Annex, Chancellor of the Annex

and so on and so on

(Chancellor is pretty dumb)

[dte]

And here are the decks for R3!
dte (TO) lava tubes,word of command,golgari rot farm,reito lantern
FourDogsinaHorseSuit Ancient Tomb Brain in a Jar Extract the Truth Boneyard Parley
Dooey Ramunap Ruins, Shadowblood Ridge, Check for Traps, Spear Spewer
jfb1337 Mercadian Bazaar Brass's Bounty Reito Lantern Word of command
Reeplcheep silkster: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Skizzik, Slaughter Pact
Alphastryk Island of Wak-Wak, Molten Slagheap, Springjack Pasture Test of Endurance
Wrath of Pie - Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity, Guiltfeeder
RoosterCocoa Sand Silos, Dovescape, sorcerous sight, Leyline of Sanctity
GoblinSmashmaster Teferi's Isle, Tarnished Citadel, Cabal Ritual, Covetous Urge
BirdsOfParadise Ancient Tomb, Cognivore, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity
silkster: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity, Cognivore
Symbi: City of Brass, Shivan Gorge, Teferi's Isle, Gifted Aetherborn
FTW: Academy Ruins, Dreadship Reef, Mindslaver, Demonic Pact
Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp

Looks like drawland all over again. Magic is too full of cards like Hint of Insanity to hope to fix this, even if the target decks were strong. For the next round, we will have to beat 4 x wastes additionally to the target deck. The discussion just above is further proof of that.
And before the next round, we vote for the banning system. No need to write anything about it right now, we will first figure out which cards to ban with either system.
 

[BirdsOfParadise]

If the goal is to backbuild while being forced to construct decent decks against your will, then...

Go through the old Asthereal’s thread, and for every frontbuild event there, run a backbuild event where you need to defeat the best-performing frontbuild deck that was entered AND a goldfish AND Mountain, Forest, Grizzly Bears, Fire Ambush. Bam.

Edit: Well I see I’m in good company this round.

[dte]

And here are my scores!

dte (TO) lava tubes,word of command,golgari rot farm,reito lantern
Me, thinking I was original, but for the second time in a row it turned out I wasn’t with a similar submission the first day. I also liked the idea to beat double word of commands by playing more words of command.
FourDogsinaHorseSuit Ancient Tomb Brain in a Jar Extract the Truth Boneyard Parley
2-2. No kills mirror.
Dooey Ramunap Ruins, Shadowblood Ridge, Check for Traps, Spear Spewer
6-0. Beats WoC.
8
jfb1337 Mercadian Bazaar Brass's Bounty Reito Lantern Word of command
2-2. No kills mirror.
10
Reeplcheep silkster: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Skizzik, Slaughter Pact
6-0. Cannot beat that.
16
Alphastryk Island of Wak-Wak, Molten Slagheap, Springjack Pasture Test of Endurance
6-0. Cannot beat that.
22
Wrath of Pie - Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity, Guiltfeeder
2-2. No kills mirror. I was amazed when I read Hint on how narrow it was, but it turns out others found it too.
24
RoosterCocoa Sand Silos, Dovescape, sorcerous sight, Leyline of Sanctity
2-2. There is a kill! But I can always cast lantern, so you cannot cast dovescape. If you don’t store mana, I can’ force you to do anything either.
26
GoblinSmashmaster Teferi's Isle, Tarnished Citadel, Cabal Ritual, Covetous Urge
2-2. No kills mirror.
28
BirdsOfParadise Ancient Tomb, Cognivore, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity
2-2. No kills mirror.
30
silkster: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity, Cognivore
2-2. No kills mirror.
32
Symbi: City of Brass, Shivan Gorge, Teferi's Isle, Gifted Aetherborn
6-0, you got a kill!
38
FTW: Academy Ruins, Dreadship Reef, Mindslaver, Demonic Pact
2-2. No kills mirror.
40
Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp
6-0, you got a kill!
46

[alphastryk]

dte (TO) lava tubes,word of command,golgari rot farm,reito lantern
I always win eventually, Word of Command doesn't stop me. WW

0-6

FourDogsinaHorseSuit Ancient Tomb Brain in a Jar Extract the Truth Boneyard Parley
I can't beat Extract the Truth. LL

6-0

Dooey Ramunap Ruins, Shadowblood Ridge, Check for Traps, Spear Spewer
I have no Traps, so you can't win and I win eventually. WW

0-6

jfb1337 Mercadian Bazaar Brass's Bounty Reito Lantern Word of command
I always win eventually, Word of Command doesn't stop me. WW

0-6

Reeplcheep silkster: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Skizzik, Slaughter Pact
Springjack Pasture can gain me life to defeat Barbed Wire, then I win eventually. WW

0-6

Alphastryk Island of Wak-Wak, Molten Slagheap, Springjack Pasture Test of Endurance
me

Wrath of Pie - Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity, Guiltfeeder
Hint of Insanity does nothing and therefore Guiltfeeder doesn't work. I win eventually. WW

0-6

RoosterCocoa Sand Silos, Dovescape, sorcerous sight, Leyline of Sanctity
If you try to win, I make more Doves than you. I win eventually. WW

0-6

GoblinSmashmaster Teferi's Isle, Tarnished Citadel, Cabal Ritual, Covetous Urge
I can't beat Covetous Urge but you can't win with my Test of Endurance. DD

2-2

BirdsOfParadise Ancient Tomb, Cognivore, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity
Hint of Insanity does nothing and therefore Cognivore doesn't work. I win eventually. WW

0-6

silkster: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity, Cognivore
Hint of Insanity does nothing and therefore Cognivore doesn't work. I win eventually. WW

0-6

Symbi: City of Brass, Shivan Gorge, Teferi's Isle, Gifted Aetherborn
I love that this has to be exactly Cit of Brass with its triggered damage to work. Springjack Pasture can gain me life to beat your engine, then I win eventually. WW

0-6

FTW: Academy Ruins, Dreadship Reef, Mindslaver, Demonic Pact
Mindslaver is not good against me, and I win Eventually. WW

0-6

Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp
This took me a minute - it still beats the other target deck and technically wasn't banned (I think we should ban the target decks like we did round 1 going forward). I of course beat this. WW

0-6

Total: 8 points. My deck is clearly too good.

[FTW]

13. FTW: Academy Ruins, Dreadship Reef, Mindslaver, Demonic Pact

I beat the target deck by infinite Mindslaver forcing them to tap the Cabal Pit.
Should have submitted my other deck. Mindslaver is too strong!

1. dte (TO): We can take turns commanding each other, but can't make a loss. DD 2-2
2. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: I can force you to die to Ancient Tomb. WW 0-6
3. Dooey: You exile Mindslaver so neither of us can win. DD 2-2
4. jfb1337: I can drain mana to dodge Word of Command on Pact, so neither of us can lose. DD 2-2
5. Reeplcheep: Pact has no legal targets, so Barbed Wire kills me. LL 6-0
6. Alphastryk: You have a wincon. LL 6-0
7. Wrath of Pie: Mindslaver too strong! I can force you to die to Boseiju while keeping Mindslaver out of my graveyard. WW 0-6
8. RoosterCocoa: You play Leyline so I can't Mindslaver you to force out Dovescape, then neither of us can win. DD 2-2
9. GoblinSmashmaster: You exile Mindslaver so I can't play it. DD 2-2
10. BirdsOfParadise: I can force you to die to Ancient Tomb. WW 0-6
11. silkster: I can force you to die to City of Brass. WW 0-6
12. Symbi: I can force you to die to City of Brass. WW 0-6
14. Asthereal: Imp kills. LL 6-0

28 points (6 loss, 10 draws, 10 win)

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

FourDogsinaHorseSuit Ancient Tomb Brain in a Jar Extract the Truth Boneyard Parley

dte (TO) lava tubes,word of command,golgari rot farm,reito lantern: You have no creature for me to discard, and you can only make me tomb once.
0-0-2

Dooey Ramunap Ruins, Shadowblood Ridge, Check for Traps, Spear Spewer
I can't beat a t1 creature.
0-2

jfb1337 Mercadian Bazaar Brass's Bounty Reito Lantern Word of command
No one brought a creature
0-0-2

Reeplcheep silkster: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Skizzik, Slaughter Pact
If The brain play takes me down to 4 life and takes too long. Plus, that makes the life differential more than 5 so even if I could steal Skizzik, hitting you with it once isn't enough.
0-2

Alphastryk Island of Wak-Wak, Molten Slagheap, Springjack Pasture Test of Endurance
I can always kill Test, and no one has any other way to win.
0-0-2

Wrath of Pie - Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity, Guiltfeeder
I can take guilt feeder, but I can't make you bin a card.
0-0-2

RoosterCocoa Sand Silos, Dovescape, sorcerous sight, Leyline of Sanctity
I can make quite few doves if you cast Dovescape, so I assume you won't.
0-0-2

GoblinSmashmaster Teferi's Isle, Tarnished Citadel, Cabal Ritual, Covetous Urge
No Creatue for me to steal, no win con for you to Urge.
0-0-2

BirdsOfParadise Ancient Tomb, Cognivore, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity
Extract the Truth is a sorcery, Hint of Insanity is a sorcery. Cognivore has no power for anyone.
0-0-2

silkster: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity, Cognivore
Extract the Truth is a sorcery. Cognivore has no power.
0-0-2

Symbi: City of Brass, Shivan Gorge, Teferi's Isle, Gifted Aetherborn
My combo requires me to tap Tomb 8 times, so if you can Activate Shivan Gorge 4 times before I can attack with aetherborn I will lose. By my count: T3, you discard aetherborn, I go to 3. T5, I go to 2. T7, I go to 1, T8, I cast parlay and reanimate your aetherborn. t9, you either untap and kill me, or I untap and gain 2 life, winning eventually
1-1

FTW: Academy Ruins, Dreadship Reef, Mindslaver, Demonic Pact
I have no answer for the world's slowest most methodical Mindslaver loop. You'll make me tap Tomb 10 times and die.
0-2

Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp
Lmao, I targeted your deck so I better beat it. I reanimate the Imp at 4 life, you die slowly over the next 40 turns.
2-0

3-7-16
37 Points

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

FourDogsinaHorseSuit Ancient Tomb Brain in a Jar Extract the Truth Boneyard Parley
I can't beat Extract the Truth. LL

True, but since I can't beat a goat: It's DD not LL.

[alphastryk]

True, but since I can't beat a goat: It's DD not LL.

Agreed, updated spreadsheet

[Reeplcheep]

I just took the worst deck that beat me last round to beat my deck.
Reeplcheep Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Skizzik, Slaughter Pact

dte (TO) lava tubes,word of command,golgari rot farm,reito lantern
I thought we specifically said you can’t play cards in the target deck?

FourDogsinaHorseSuit Ancient Tomb Brain in a Jar Extract the Truth Boneyard Parley
You hurt yourself too much to use parley. WW 0-6

Dooey Ramunap Ruins, Shadowblood Ridge, Check for Traps, Spear Spewer
I have an instant for traps. LL 6-0

jfb1337 Mercadian Bazaar Brass's Bounty Reito Lantern Word of command
I thought we can’t use cards in the target decks??

Alphastryk Island of Wak-Wak, Molten Slagheap, Springjack vs Pasture Test of Endurance
I can’t beat a single point of lifegain. LL 6-0

Wrath of Pie - Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity, Guiltfeeder
I have 2 uncastable cards. LL 6-0

RoosterCocoa Sand Silos, Dovescape, sorcerous sight, Leyline of Sanctity
Silos into sight is fast enough. LL 6-0

GoblinSmashmaster Teferi's Isle, Tarnished Citadel, Cabal Ritual, Covetous Urge
WD 1-4

BirdsOfParadise Ancient Tomb, Cognivore, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity
WW 0-6

silkster: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity, Cognivore
WW 0-6

Symbi: City of Brass, Shivan Gorge, Teferi's Isle, Gifted Aetherborn
Lifelink threat LL 6-0

FTW: Academy Ruins, Dreadship Reef, Mindslaver, Demonic Pact
WW 0-6

Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp
My clock is slow enough you make up for the self damage LL 0-6

[jfb1337]

dte (TO) lava tubes,word of command,golgari rot farm,reito lantern
DD 2-2

FourDogsinaHorseSuit Ancient Tomb Brain in a Jar Extract the Truth Boneyard Parley
DD 2-2

Dooey Ramunap Ruins, Shadowblood Ridge, Check for Traps, Spear Spewer
LL 6-0 - you exile WoC

jfb1337 Mercadian Bazaar Brass's Bounty Reito Lantern Word of command
that's me!

Reeplcheep silkster: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Skizzik, Slaughter Pact
LL 6-0 - barbed wire wins

Alphastryk Island of Wak-Wak, Molten Slagheap, Springjack Pasture Test of Endurance
LL 6-0 - test of endurance wins

Wrath of Pie - Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity, Guiltfeeder
DD 2-2 - I don't put anything in my grave while you don't put enough counters on your land for me to use

RoosterCocoa Sand Silos, Dovescape, sorcerous sight, Leyline of Sanctity
DD 2-2 - I win if you dovescape, so you don't charge up your land

GoblinSmashmaster Teferi's Isle, Tarnished Citadel, Cabal Ritual, Covetous Urge
DD 2-2 - You take my WoC.

BirdsOfParadise Ancient Tomb, Cognivore, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity
DD 2-2 - I don't put anything in my grave while you don't put enough counters on your land for me to use

silkster: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity, Cognivore
DD 2-2 - I don't put anything in my grave while you don't put enough counters on your land for me to use

Symbi: City of Brass, Shivan Gorge, Teferi's Isle, Gifted Aetherborn
LL 6-0 - Shivan gorge kills me, you have no spells for me to force you to use city with

FTW: Academy Ruins, Dreadship Reef, Mindslaver, Demonic Pact
DD 2-2 - I can never make you play pact

Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp
LL 6-0 - Imp kills me

10L 16D = 46

[GoblinSmashmaster]

GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "Still can't win"

dte (TO) lava tubes,word of command,golgari rot farm,reito lantern
Still can't win 2-2

FourDogsinaHorseSuit Ancient Tomb Brain in a Jar Extract the Truth Boneyard Parley
Still can't win 2-2

Dooey Ramunap Ruins, Shadowblood Ridge, Check for Traps, Spear Spewer
Goblin smash!!! 6-0

jfb1337 Mercadian Bazaar Brass's Bounty Reito Lantern Word of command
Still can't win 2-2

Reeplcheep: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Skizzik, Slaughter Pact
Barbed wire 6-0

Alphastryk Island of Wak-Wak, Molten Slagheap, Springjack Pasture Test of Endurance
Still can't win 2-2

Wrath of Pie - Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity, Guiltfeeder
Still can't win 2-2

RoosterCocoa Sand Silos, Dovescape, sorcerous sight, Leyline of Sanctity
Still can't win 2-2

GoblinSmashmaster Teferi's Isle, Tarnished Citadel, Cabal Ritual, Covetous Urge
That's me again!

BirdsOfParadise Ancient Tomb, Cognivore, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity
Still can't win 2-2

silkster: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity, Cognivore
Still can't win 2-2

Symbi: City of Brass, Shivan Gorge, Teferi's Isle, Gifted Aetherborn
Aetherborn smash :( 0-6

FTW: Academy Ruins, Dreadship Reef, Mindslaver, Demonic Pact
Still can't win 2-2

Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp
Imp smash :( 0-6

Total: 30 points

[Symbi]

1. dte (TO) lava tubes,word of command,golgari rot farm,reito lantern:
No wincon. WW 0-6, 0 total

2. FourDogsinaHorseSuit Ancient Tomb Brain in a Jar Extract the Truth Boneyard Parley:
The combo costs 16 life to execute and happens on T8. I can deal 4 damage by T9. This means the aetherborn can swing on T9 and the result is decided by who goes first. WL 3-3, 3 total

3. Dooey Ramunap Ruins, Shadowblood Ridge, Check for Traps, Spear Spewer:
I have no instants. WW 0-6, 3 total

4. jfb1337 Mercadian Bazaar Brass's Bounty Reito Lantern Word of command:
No wincon. WW 0-6, 3 total

5. Reeplcheep: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Skizzik, Slaughter Pact:
If you play barbed wire immediately I can ping you to death as I can activate my gorge when we are both at 1. If you hold the wire, I will always have a window where we are both at 1 life where I can activate the gorge if the wire was played when we are at 2 or more life. When we are at 2 life I wait until your end step to ping, then if you play the wire next turn I can untap and ping you in response to the wire trigger. WW 0-6, 3 total

6. Alphastryk Island of Wak-Wak, Molten Slagheap, Springjack Pasture Test of Endurance:
You gain life. LL 6-0, 9 total

7. Wrath of Pie - Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity, Guiltfeeder:
Ok that's just nuts. WW 0-6, 9 total

8. RoosterCocoa Sand Silos, Dovescape, sorcerous sight, Leyline of Sanctity:
I manage to accidentally lose to this by not casting any spells. LL 6-0, 15 total

9. GoblinSmashmaster Teferi's Isle, Tarnished Citadel, Cabal Ritual, Covetous Urge:
You choose a nonland card. Oof. Also you can't cast Aetherborn. WW 0-6, 15 total

10. BirdsOfParadise Ancient Tomb, Cognivore, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity:
I have no instants. WW 0-6, 15 total

11. silkster: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity, Cognivore:
I still have no instants. WW 0-6, 15 total

12. Symbi: City of Brass, Shivan Gorge, Teferi's Isle, Gifted Aetherborn:
That's me!

13. FTW: Academy Ruins, Dreadship Reef, Mindslaver, Demonic Pact:
I die to my own city of brass. LL 6-0, 21 total

14. Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp:
I die to the imp. LL 6-0, 27 total

[BirdsOfParadise]

Me: BirdsOfParadise Ancient Tomb, Cognivore, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity

dte (TO) lava tubes,word of command,golgari rot farm,reito lantern
We don't really interact.
DD (0 + 2 = 2 pt)
FourDogsinaHorseSuit Ancient Tomb Brain in a Jar Extract the Truth Boneyard Parley
Cognivore has 0 power.
DD (2 + 2 = 4 pt)
Dooey Ramunap Ruins, Shadowblood Ridge, Check for Traps, Spear Spewer
That's clever! Looks like you can't kill me since I have no instants.
DD (4 + 2 = 6 pt)
jfb1337 Mercadian Bazaar Brass's Bounty Reito Lantern Word of command
The idea of repeatedly forcing the strawman to tap Cabal Pit using Word of Command never occurred to me! Ingenious. (dte, too.)
DD (6 + 2 = 8 pt)
Reeplcheep silkster: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Skizzik, Slaughter Pact
Your cards win, mine do nothing.
LL (8 + 6 = 14 pt)
Alphastryk Island of Wak-Wak, Molten Slagheap, Springjack Pasture Test of Endurance
Your cards win, I can't interact.
LL (14 + 6 = 20 pt)
Wrath of Pie - Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity, Guiltfeeder
Greetings, mirror. Guiltfeeder never occurred to me. I'll be interested in seeing if that small variation affects our relative scores.
DD (20 + 2 = 22 pt)
RoosterCocoa Sand Silos, Dovescape, sorcerous sight, Leyline of Sanctity
If only Hint of Insanity said "target opponent," you could use Leyline to prevent me from doing anything while hitting me with a 1/1 flier. As it is, I think we stare.
DD (22 + 2 = 24 pt)
GoblinSmashmaster Teferi's Isle, Tarnished Citadel, Cabal Ritual, Covetous Urge
You can get an instant in the GY and get Cognivore with Covetous Urge, but you can't actually cast Cognivore.
DD (24 + 2 = 26 pt)
silkster: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity, Cognivore
Hello there, good-looking.
DD (26 + 2 = 28 pt)
Symbi: City of Brass, Shivan Gorge, Teferi's Isle, Gifted Aetherborn
I think you bring us both to one life, then you tap Isle and City of Brass, and with City's lethal damage to you on the stack, you kill me with Shivan Gorge?
LL (28 + 6 = 34 pt)
FTW: Academy Ruins, Dreadship Reef, Mindslaver, Demonic Pact
You Slaver lock me into dealing 20 damage to myself with Ancient Tomb.
LL (34 + 6 = 40 pt)
Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp
You use your win condition.
LL (40 + 6 = 46 pt)

Total = 46 pt

As dte said, it was drawland again, but I've actually enjoyed the rounds where we figure out how to make a deck that cannot win, then try to figure out how we can still lose to another deck that cannot win. In all my time playing MtG I've never until now explored the deck-building space around Word of Command and painlands. The counter to the Hint of Insanity deck might have been something like Veldt, Helix Pinnacle, Beacon of Destruction, Beacon of Destruction. (Good thing I didn't have the guts to submit that.) To me this meta doesn't actually seem lacking. I wonder if, instead of requiring a goldish by adding 4x wastes as a target deck, it would work to make it harder to not goldfish by requiring players to defeat multiple decks from the previous round. If we'd had to beat the Teferi's Imp deck and the 2x Word of Command deck this round, there would have been fewer decks that couldn't goldfish, but that door would still be open for someone with a really ingenious idea.

[silkster]

Looks like drawland all over again. Magic is too full of cards like Hint of Insanity to hope to fix this, even if the target decks were strong.
I'm honoured that my deck was singled out as so absurdly stupid that the rules should be changed. Seriously, that's maybe better than winning. Speaking of which, let's see how it went. Edit: Oh, there were several. :laugh:

dte (TO) lava tubes,word of command,golgari rot farm,reito lantern DD
FourDogsinaHorseSuit Ancient Tomb Brain in a Jar Extract the Truth Boneyard Parley DD
Dooey Ramunap Ruins, Shadowblood Ridge, Check for Traps, Spear Spewer DD
jfb1337 Mercadian Bazaar Brass's Bounty Reito Lantern Word of command DD
Reeplcheep: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Skizzik, Slaughter Pact LL, Why Slaughter Pact? Don't you win get points against all the Word of Command and Mindslaver decks with a pact that doesn't require targets?
Alphastryk Island of Wak-Wak, Molten Slagheap, Springjack Pasture Test of Endurance LL
Wrath of Pie - Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity, Guiltfeeder DD
RoosterCocoa Sand Silos, Dovescape, sorcerous sight, Leyline of Sanctity DD, "Target player" not "Target opponent". Darn.
GoblinSmashmaster Teferi's Isle, Tarnished Citadel, Cabal Ritual, Covetous Urge, DD
BirdsOfParadise Ancient Tomb, Cognivore, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity, DD, Ehhh! A fellow Cognivore fan!
silkster: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity, Cognivore I own a playset of Cognivores waiting for their day. Do you think it's soon?
Symbi: City of Brass, Shivan Gorge, Teferi's Isle, Gifted Aetherborn, LL, as I do no damage and can play nothing productive.
FTW: Academy Ruins, Dreadship Reef, Mindslaver, Demonic Pact, LL, City of Brass coming in hot.
Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp, LL,
Oh, I thought about submitting this. I first spent quite a while designing a deck that specifically loses to Aura Flux, and I got there, but I was accidentally beating cards like Demonic Pact. I was trying to find my way around those, and I found a few but they were accidentally too strong in other ways. Then I realized that this deck itself was legal and wondered if that was a mistake. Finally, I decided to opt out completely of the Aura Flux deck shenanigans and the Mindslaver v. Pacts conflict.

16D, 10L for 48 46 points. Hopefully I didn't screw it up too badly this time.

It took me a while to figure out why looping Word of Command was legal this round. I thought it had to do with using City of Brass to activate the Add X ability of Dreadship Reef, and I knew that didn't work cause I read Word of Command and all of its Gatherer rulings this week. But then I realized why it needed to be Reito Lantern over Soldevi Digger. Very nice. I regret not playing a discard spell that I could cast without charging up counters. But those were all probably too powerful anyway and would have led to wins against Slaughter Pact and Cabal Ritual.

[BirdsOfParadise]

16D, 10L for 48 points. Hopefully I didn't screw it up too badly this time.

Doesn't look like you did. 46 points, though, right?

[Wrath of Pie]

Looks like drawland all over again. Magic is too full of cards like Hint of Insanity to hope to fix this, even if the target decks were strong. For the next round, we will have to beat 4 x wastes additionally to the target deck. The discussion just above is further proof of that.
And before the next round, we vote for the banning system. No need to write anything about it right now, we will first figure out which cards to ban with either system.
 
I tried to limit you to the worst hand specifically for a reason with the finite goldfish limiter for a reason, because including the double Word of Command hand was the real issue. Once I knew that was the case, the only choice was Hint of Insanity.

The only other viable hand I could think of involved double Jinxed Choker, and if you think drawland is bad enough, have fun calculating Jinxed Choker matchups.

[silkster]

FourDogsinaHorseSuit Ancient Tomb Brain in a Jar Extract the Truth Boneyard Parley

Dooey Ramunap Ruins, Shadowblood Ridge, Check for Traps, Spear Spewer
I can't beat a t1 creature.
0-2

But the turn 1 creature doesn't beat you either.


Reeplcheep Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Skizzik, Slaughter Pact

Wrath of Pie - Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity, Guiltfeeder
I have 2 uncastable cards. LL 6-0

RoosterCocoa Sand Silos, Dovescape, sorcerous sight, Leyline of Sanctity
Silos into sight is fast enough. LL 6-0

GoblinSmashmaster Teferi's Isle, Tarnished Citadel, Cabal Ritual, Covetous Urge
WD 1-4

Symbi: City of Brass, Shivan Gorge, Teferi's Isle, Gifted Aetherborn
Lifelink threat LL 6-0

Wrath of Pie can't kill you unless you have 2 instants with the same name.
RoosterCocoa can't kill you because if Dovescape is cast, then you can cast Barbed Wire for 3 birds and win. But you also can't cast Barbed Wire first, cause then you'd lose to birds.
GoblinSmashmaster can't cast Covetous Urge until turn 3, much to late to stop you from casting it.
Symbi can't cast the Gifted Aetherborn. I think it's there to get points off of Covetous Urge.

[Wrath of Pie]

Wrath of Pie - Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity, Guiltfeeder

dte (TO) lava tubes,word of command,golgari rot farm,reito lantern - DD
FourDogsinaHorseSuit Ancient Tomb Brain in a Jar Extract the Truth Boneyard Parley - DD
Dooey Ramunap Ruins, Shadowblood Ridge, Check for Traps, Spear Spewer - DD
jfb1337 Mercadian Bazaar Brass's Bounty Reito Lantern Word of command - DD
Reeplcheep: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Skizzik, Slaughter Pact - LL - Unfortunately, Workshop self-damage doesn't work that well without all the losing to unrestricted mana strategies around as prey.
Alphastryk Island of Wak-Wak, Molten Slagheap, Springjack Pasture Test of Endurance - LL - Definitely the most amusing entry.
RoosterCocoa Sand Silos, Dovescape, sorcerous sight, Leyline of Sanctity - DD
GoblinSmashmaster Teferi's Isle, Tarnished Citadel, Cabal Ritual, Covetous Urge - DD
BirdsOfParadise Ancient Tomb, Cognivore, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity - DD
silkster: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity, Cognivore - DD
Symbi: City of Brass, Shivan Gorge, Teferi's Isle, Gifted Aetherborn - LL - The most clever self-damage strategy, but it suffered from Word of Command being legal to beat.
FTW: Academy Ruins, Dreadship Reef, Mindslaver, Demonic Pact - LL - Mindslaver loops confirmed too good.
Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp - LL

10l16d = 46 points

Next round will be less insane I'm guessing. (I probably have to start over from scratch to figure out how to beat quad-Wastes, because it will massively narrow the metagame and losing to specific conditions gets a lot harder with that around. At least Jinxed Choker is still legal!)

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

But the turn 1 creature doesn't beat you either..

Oh you're right I read it like five times and thought it said "target" and not each.

[silkster]

Oh you're right I read it like five times and thought it said "target" and not each.

We've all made worse mistakes and misreadings, or at least I have. I only know that one cause I drafted that set once or twice and I remember being impressed that such a terrible card was actually playable because it enabled... something. Bloodthirst? Nope, it was Spectacle.

Question: How does <lava tubes,word of command,golgari rot farm,reito lantern> beat <Lava Tubes,Cabal Pit,Word of Command,Word of Command>? Can't the dummy deck just tap Lava Tubes for red in response?

[RoosterCocoa]

RoosterCocoa Sand Silos, Dovescape, sorcerous sight, Leyline of Sanctity

dte (TO) lava tubes,word of command,golgari rot farm,reito lantern
If I play Dovescape, you can make more doves than me. DD

FourDogsinaHorseSuit Ancient Tomb Brain in a Jar Extract the Truth Boneyard Parley
If I play Dovescape, you can make more doves than me. DD

Dooey Ramunap Ruins, Shadowblood Ridge, Check for Traps, Spear Spewer
You can't cast Check for Traps. WW

jfb1337 Mercadian Bazaar Brass's Bounty Reito Lantern Word of command
If I play Dovescape, you can make more doves than me. DD

Reeplcheep silkster: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Skizzik, Slaughter Pact
If I play Dovescape, you can make more doves than me. DD

Alphastryk Island of Wak-Wak, Molten Slagheap, Springjack Pasture Test of Endurance
If I play Dovescape, you make more doves than me, but if I don't you can still win. LL

Wrath of Pie - Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity, Guiltfeeder
If I play Dovescape, you can make more doves than me. DD

GoblinSmashmaster Teferi's Isle, Tarnished Citadel, Cabal Ritual, Covetous Urge
If I play Dovescape, you can make more doves than me. DD

BirdsOfParadise Ancient Tomb, Cognivore, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity
If I play Dovescape, you can make more doves than me. DD

silkster: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Hint of Insanity, Cognivore
If I play Dovescape, you can make more doves than me. DD

Symbi: City of Brass, Shivan Gorge, Teferi's Isle, Gifted Aetherborn
You don't have any noncreature spells to cast. WW

FTW: Academy Ruins, Dreadship Reef, Mindslaver, Demonic Pact
If I play Dovescape, you can make more doves than me. DD

Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp
If I play Dovescape, you can make more doves than me, but if I don't you win with the imp. LL

4W 18D 4L = 30

I didn't feel like searching for a way to win against only the target deck, so I went with Dovescape and hoped enough people would be playing decks that had a goldfish turn. It looks like this would have been better saved for a future round.

[dte]

Question: How does <lava tubes,word of command,golgari rot farm,reito lantern> beat <Lava Tubes,Cabal Pit,Word of Command,Word of Command>? Can't the dummy deck just tap Lava Tubes for red in response?

Damn, that sounds right.
Jfb1337's deck and mine are illegal then :/