[Deck] Pox

[Tiago_B.]

It's been a long time since there has been a viable black control deck

That's why im trying so hard :tongue: black is my favorite color and im kinda tired of playing aggro (most of my decks are aggro, even casual ones)

Pox was okay. In a regular Pox list it can be a central card, but here its not as good. Still, its fine, and should be better than SmallPox.

Surely there are cards that could be tested in its place, like Wrench Mind or Last Rites (cant think of anything else right now), although Pox serves as removal and discard, and its good vs combo, so this has to be well thought.

Last Rites could be a very good utility card, allowing us to discard our hand to help Ensnaring Bridge/Noetic Scales against fast aggros (its makes a difference, trust me), plus its huge vs combo. Could be played t1 by ritual, or t2 with Ancient Tomb, so less mana-intensive than Pox. However discarding 2 cards for it, then getting it countered would suck a lot. So its worse vs counter-based control, and its a horrible topdeck.

Liliana's Caress never was a dead card to me, but i dont remember drawing it mid-late game. When i had it, it worked well, better than The Rack, which was also good. Quest for the Nihil Stone should be good if you want to replace any of them.

As for Ancient Tomb, well, the deck needs to play the lockpieces as fast as possible, in a fast enviroment, so i liked it much, even with the damage. City of Traitors would be better in a Poxless version, i think.

I was just looking at the list and reached the same conclusion as you, the deck needed at least another Bottomless Pit or discard effect in exchange for the Scrolls.
About the Leyline, its much better to have Oppression on the SD, i just picked up a few cards before playing the matches, and remembered that i should have G-Yard hate, now with your example it just seems almost useless.

My knowledge of Dredge is very basic, so i cant tell the percentages of turn 1/2/3 kills. I do know that some versions running LED are combo-like fast.

The deck has more trouble with small creatures (1-3 power usually) that pass through Noetic Scalles. If we can solve that problem, i think it will be very good. I still need to play with it against heavy control decks. But we are playing discard so....:cool:
The fact that this deck was able to survive against fast aggros is greatly due to Dark Ritual, and part to Ancient Tomb, and depends much on them.



The match against Dragon Stompy was just bad luck. Their lockpieces totally suck against this deck. A single The Abyss ruins them. I didnt even had Ensnaring Bridge. Both games. In those conditions i could never win against Goblins, for example. Just mulligan hard for one of those 2 if Dragon Stompy comes up. GG for them.

Goblins can be pretty hard if they have a fast hand. Infest was one of my greatest weapons here, i would never have won g2 and 3 without it. Goblin Ringleader is their key card, stops Noetic Scales and pulls them out of The Rack's range. I think this always will be a hard matchup, but Infest nails them pretty hard.

Affinity will be easier than Goblins, they can have that explosive hand that just wins (even more than goblins), but post-board Null Rod totally shuts them down. And their creatures get a lot bigger than Gobs, so Noetic Scales, and Ensnaring Bridge work much better on them.
Tezz builds should be stronger g1, but much, much weaker g2 and 3.
Ravager builds should have that 4dmg burn spell with metalcraft, its the only weapon they have after being locked.

Belcher with them on the play will be very hard. I think G1 will be very difficult, turn 1 Ritual -> Hymn/Pox should be our best weapon, and priority when mulling; G2 and 3, Oppression, Chalice and Null Rod should put the odds in our favor, as long as they dont combo t1. Like you said, 1st turn Oppression will wreck them.



Filtered MWS for black enchantments and non-creature artifacts, then burned my eyelashes for 2 hours. Cards worth looking into:

Vs Aggro->
Angel's Trumpet (Paired with Ensnaring Bridge would give a fast win); Storage Matrix (we only need to untap the lands); Tainted Aether; Sun Droplet (could be great in this deck, if the opponent doesnt keep up the pressure, his previous efforts turn to nothing. It would force the opponent to play cards, and fall into our lock);

Other cards that might fit->
Words of Waste (good synergy); Gibbering Descent (6 mana is way too much, but it would get online turn 4 to Necrogen Mists, it can be perfect for the deck, testing will tell); Scepter of Fugue; Dark Suspicions(could be a wincon against decks that find a way to beat Necrogen Mists discard, great lategame card);

Ill do some experiences.....The most interesting to me are Last Rites, Gibbering Descent, Dark Suspicions and Sun Droplet.

I really like this deck, and if it ends up good, ill be getting all those cards ASAP (The Abyss will be hard to get, and even harder for me to buy it lol).

[Clark Kant]

Maybe your playgroup will let you proxy up The Abyss if you get your hands on all the other cards. As I found out recently, everyone in my playgroup is usually fine with 4-6 proxies, as long as 90% of the cards in the deck are real, they don't mind a few of the more expensive cards being proxied up especially if you let them know before hand.

If the deck needs accleration, Chrome Mox/Mox Diamond might possibly be valid options. I really think City of Traitors instead of Tombs might be worthwhile too, against fast aggro/burn. After you have 4 mana on the board, there really isn't anything you can't play.



Filtered MWS for black enchantments and non-creature artifacts, then burned my eyelashes for 2 hours. Cards worth looking into:

Vs Aggro->
Angel's Trumpet (Paired with Ensnaring Bridge would give a fast win); Storage Matrix (we only need to untap the lands); Tainted Aether; Sun Droplet (could be great in this deck, if the opponent doesnt keep up the pressure, his previous efforts turn to nothing. It would force the opponent to play cards, and fall into our lock);

Other cards that might fit->
Words of Waste (good synergy); Gibbering Descent (6 mana is way too much, but it would get online turn 4 to Necrogen Mists, it can be perfect for the deck, testing will tell); Scepter of Fugue; Dark Suspicions(could be a wincon against decks that find a way to beat Necrogen Mists discard, great lategame card);

Ill do some experiences.....The most interesting to me are Last Rites, Gibbering Descent, Dark Suspicions and Sun Droplet.

I really like this deck, and if it ends up good, ill be getting all those cards ASAP (The Abyss will be hard to get, and even harder for me to buy it lol).

Wow, you have a ton of great ideas to improve the deck. Awesome finds.

I think the deck does need to play the 4th Noetic Scales, and it needs atleast 1-2 more discard effect, preferably recurring discard effects like Bottomless Pit or Words of Waste (good find) or Uba Mask (not really a discard effect but it serves a similar function).

Uba Mask shuts down countermagic completely, and also really helps you enable The Rack, Ensnaring Bridge, Noetic Scales, and if you opt to play it, can enable Quest for the Nihil Stone. Unfortunately, it doesn't work very well with Liliana's Caress. If you anticipate a moderate amount of blue decks packing counters, Uba Mask seems essential somewhere in the 75.

Scepter of Fugue is also another really awesome find. Maybe this should be out Necrogen Mist effect 5-6. It's definately one of the strongest options.

Gibbering Descent seems too situational. You would want it to act as a Necrogen Mists type effect (to keep your opponent at an empty hand) when you don't already have a Necrogen Mists on the board to do just that. Unfortunately, the only realistic way to get it out seems to be with Necrogen Mists.

I think the deck needs more lock pieces, not win conditions, so I think Dark Suspicions only works if it's replacing Liliana's Caress. It supplements The Rack well, but so did Liliana's Caress, and it does it for far cheaper. If you want a similar effect, Scalding Tongs seems like it would be alot stronger than Dark Suspicions since it's much cheaper.

Last Rites definitely looks like it has potential. It's dead in multiples and it's a dead top deck though, but then again, you probably have the game locked up once you're at the midgame with an empty hand. And I feel like any discard we make room for should be a recurring one.

Quest for the Nihil Stone looks okay. Perhaps it's a better fit for the deck than Liliana's Caress. I hate that you first need to get two counters on it (so it can be dead if you topdeck midgame same as Liliana's Caress), and it needs zero cards in your opponent's hand, so it's winmore. But at the very least, if 8 win conditions end up being too few, it could sub in where the Cursed Scrolls used to be.

Tainted Aether, I dislike because this deck doesn't attack lands. In fact, your opponents usually have land to spare so saccing them to play their creatures shouldn't be an issue. Also I feel like between The Abyss, Bridge and Scales (and possibly Storage Matrix), the deck has enough high cc creature hate. And all those cards seem to be far superior to Aether, since they lock the opponent's creatures down completely, all by themselves. If Aether was 3cc instead of four, so you could Ritual it out turn one, it would be so much stronger though.

Storage Matrix is an awesome find (since it only costs 3 mana and comes down on turn 1/2 usually). Basically, your opponent is forced to choose between either playing more creatures, or attacking with the ones he has in play, and risking getting the ones in his hand discarded to a Hymn or Noetic Scales. This buys you a lot of extra time to lock them out. It's as good as Bridge/Scales since your opponent can simply tap all their lands, and attack with their creatures each turn. But it supplements both cards really well if it comes down early before they have a full board. It could as a budget alternative to The Abyss (the only expensive card in the deck).

Sun Droplet gains you two life for each turn basically. Is that enough? It's a great effect once you have the game slowed to a crawl. So I guess the real question is, do you lose more games before the game has slowed to a crawl, or do you lose more once the game is slowed down but they find a way to eek through the last few point of damage. Ultimately, I think it's a fantastic option against fast aggro, but there's plenty of matchups and situations where it doesn't do very much. So I'm not sure.

Not a fan of Angel's Trumpet. It doesn't anything unless you have an Ensnaring Bridge in play. It has poor synergy with Noetic Scales. And if you just want an extra way to finish them off, Quest just seems more solid all around.

[frogczar]

I really like the concepts being discussed here. I think discard has a great opportunity to kick all those blue decks in the teeth right now. So here's a question, how do you plan on dealing with Jace, the Mind Sculptor?

I think Pithing Needle might be a sideboard option.

-Frog

[Kich867]

If I'm not mistaken, Uba Mask also...kind of destroys a lot of things does it not? Brainstorm for instance, would cause them to exile the top three cards of their library, albeit be able to play them (which would be an indirect way of countering something), but they still lose all of those cards. So draw, counters, anything they would normally do on your turn is undoable.

I think Uba Mask might be a rather key card in this deck, it's sort of like Chains of Mephistopholes or whatever, just, in some regards better for Pox.

[Clark Kant]

Yeah Uba Mask is awesome. It's also decent vs. Standstill. My previous post was a rather long read, so here's the Cliff Note's version...


Here are in my opinion some of the weaker cards in current version of the deck, in order...

Cursed Scroll
Pox
Liliana's Caress
The Abyss
Noetic Scales


The deck needs ~1-2 more recurring discard effects, and these seem to be the best options in order...

Scepter of Fugue (Good against any counterspells they may be saving in hand as well)
Uba Mask (Also great against control decks)
Words of Waste (Extremely synergic with the whole deck)
Bottomless Pit (Very similar effect to Necrogen Mists)
Last Rites (it's a very strong card, but it's not recurring, which is why it's last on the list).


Alternative win conditions to replace Liliana's Caress in order of effectiveness...

Scalding Tongs
Quest for the Nihil Stone
Cursed Scroll
Dark Suspicions

I think Liliana's Caress is better than any of these except maybe Scalding Tongs (it's very reliable).


Potential alternatives to The Abyss or Pox (slow down your opponent or get rid of creatures)...

Storage Matrix
Sun Droplet
The discard effects mentioned above.

Yeah, Pithing Needle is pretty much the deck's best option against Jace. It can fight Null Rod for that slot since it too, like Null Rod, is solid against Belcher, Aether Vial and can help vs Affinity.

So how is this for a new test list...

//Discard
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Necrogen Mists
1 Raven's Crime
1 Scepter of Fugue
1 Uba Mask
1 Words of Waste
1 Bottomless Pit
1 Pox (or Sun Droplet)

//Lock
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Noetic Scales
4 The Abyss
1 Storage Matrix

//Win
4 The Rack
3 Liliana's Caress
1 Scalding Tongs

//Mana
4 Dark Ritual
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
15 Swamp

Test Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Infest
3 Pithing Needle
2 Null Rod
2 Oppression

You seem to face lots of fast aggressive weenie decks so cutting Pox migh help preserve your life total and survive long enough to lock/bounce their creatures. This deck in theory should absolutely decimate aggro control decks and possibly control decks as well, since they give you a lot more time to lock them out. The maindeck wasn't really configured to take on super fast decks like goblins, belcher and affinity, so it's really cool that it seems to be capable of doing that.

Cutting Pox allows us to play fewer lands and more Sol lands (Tomb/City). I only cut one for now. However, there is a chance that Pox is a central part of quickly dumping both our hand and our opponent's hand. So without Pox, the deck might possibly not function as well.

Also, what do you think of Persecute in the sideboard against monocolored decks? Would a ritualed out Persecute on turn two, or an Ancient Tomb/City of Traitored Persecute on turn 3 own Goblins, Elves, The Gate, Merfolk, Quinn, and/or Blue Control after you bait out their counters? It could replace the 2 Null Rod above or replace Oppression if you don't feel you need Oppression vs the combo matchup.

I'm going to throw this list together the next time our play group plays together (next Wednesday). It would be really cool if you could test out that list as well. It's a quick and easy way to figure out which cards are worthwhile and which aren't. It should help us figure out what the deck is lacking in (does it need more recurring discard, more lock pieces, more stall cards like Storage Matrix and Sun Droplet, or more win conditions).

[Kich867]

Isn't that just a mono black control deck? I'm sure there's another thread for that. Much like people trying to splash white or black into a Mono Blue Control deck, making a "Pox" deck without it's namesake isn't a Pox deck.

[Tiago_B.]

Yeah they wont bother about it, as long as i have most of the cards, if i proxy 4 of them its fine.

About the moxes, testing is the only way to know, but im worried it might be too much bad draws mid-lategame, and too much card disavantage, since we already have Dark Ritual, and im testing Last Rites.

Tainted Aether seems weak compared to the other lockpieces, i agree on that. Angel's Trumpet is more of a situational card, and we should use something more versatile.

Gibbering Descent is too mana intensive. I just cant play it very well. Its a shame it costs so much.
Dark Suspicions will be tested in its place, decks running Standstill and Dark Confidant often draw too much for us. Its a dead card if we are winning and a wincon if we are losing, besides it forces the opponent to play cards, getting into The Rack's reach, and helping Noetic Scales.

Words of Waste also seems a nice addition, but maybe another card deserves this place (Quest?).

How do you feel about Dimir Machinations? Fetches Ensnaring Bridge, Necrogen Mists, Oppression, Words of Waste, Last Rites, Pox.....Its slow, but it might get us the last card we need to finish the lock.

Im putting up this list: -2 Cursed Scroll (+2 Dark Suspicions), -2 Raven's Crime (+1 Oppression, +1 Dimir Machinations), -3 Pox (+3 Last Rites). In the SD, ill drop the Leylines for a 4th Null Rod and 3 Oppression.

Im also switching 4 City of Traitors for 4 Ancient Tomb, i wont need to play so much lands now that i dont have Pox so it fits better.

I think that this deck should be able to beat Merfolk too, we just have too much good cards against them. With Zoo we probably stand a good chance as well.

Against Belcher we should mulligan hard for Null Rod and Oppression. I just lost 1-2 to it again, and even post SD its 50-50 at least; my turn 1, on the play was: Chalice for 0, Swamp, Dark Ritual, Oppression. I just couldnt kill him fast enough, and he combos with topdecked cards. I was surprised, had 2 major cards against that deck on the board, a perfect start, and i still lost. Perhaps Last Rites and Quest for the Nihil Stone will help this matchup.

Jace would be a total pain in the ass, we dont run creatures so we couldnt kill him, or any planeswalker. Pithing Needle might be great against cards like Jace, and Deed, which wrecks us completly.

Uba Mask is more of a situational card. But it might prove usefull.

Ill test your list as well, soon. Ive got a sunburn so im sitting at home with nothing better to do than play MTG lol

EDIT: Persecute seems nice. Definitly worth testing.

[Clark Kant]

If you want a tutor effect, Beseech the Queen seems superior. It can tutor up every card, not just 3cc cards, it can tutor up a win condition like The Rack too, or Hymn and such or Noetic Scales (which is often times better than Ensnaring Bridge).

But really, I don't think the deck needs a tutor. Tutors just slow this deck down too much, have poor synergy with a Necrogen Mists on the board, and the deck is built to be extremely redundant already.

I just hope all these changes haven't made the deck weaker rather than stronger.



Ill test your list as well, soon. Ive got a sunburn so im sitting at home with nothing better to do than play MTG lol.

Awesome. Well not for you, but awesome that you'll get a chance to play more mtg lol. :)

I may install Workstation myself and give it a go (though I've always hated playing on MWS).

[Tiago_B.]

Due to my sunburn, i played for like 8 hours today with this type of deck :eek: I actually tested your list first, but now the only matches i can remember was Merfolk (i think i won) and Forgemaster (I won both games easy, since decks with a few fatties arent very good here).

From my experience, Sun droplet is okay. Storage Matrix delays creature aggros A LOT. Scepter, Scalding Tongs, and Words of Waste are okay too, and between these 5 cards, it comes to personal preference or metagame choice.


BTW, Persecute was good, i sided both in a lot.

Uba Mask is good, but not as good as i expected. Bad synergy with Liliana's Caress. It seemed like a huge card to build around, so i replaced Caress with Quest for the Nihil Stone.
I focused on recurring discard, Uba Mask, The Rack, and the Quest. Turns out that its too situational to be effective, and topdecked Quest mid-lategame after we have Uba Mask, its dead.

The list that ran those win conditions lost like 5-2 to Dragon Stompy (OMFGGG it all went downhill here, even Noetic Scales kept bouncing his Manic Vandal, i felt like a giant turd), 2-1 to Tribal Elves(aggro, g3 he keeps gaining life (like, 150), until i find infest. Lost due to milling), 4-1 to Burn (Sun Droplet wins 1st game, then he boards Leyline of Punishment). Won 3-1 vs TezzAffinity (null rod).

A HUGE, GIANT TURD. Totally.

:frown:

Quest for the Nihil Stone isnt good here.


I came back to this similar, but older list:



// Lands
3 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
15 [MBS] Swamp (1)
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Spells
4 [TSB] The Rack
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
3 [M11] Liliana's Caress
1 [TE] Scalding Tongs
1 [CFX] Scepter of Fugue
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
1 [7E] Oppression
3 [OD] Last Rites
4 [MR] Necrogen Mists
4 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge
2 [PS] Dark Suspicions
4 [LG] The Abyss
3 [US] Noetic Scales

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 3 [7E] Oppression
SB: 4 [ALA] Infest


Played vs Rock, some weird deck (think it was aluren), Goblins (0-2), Junk (2-0), Merfolks (2-1), and Belcher again(2-1).

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I really dont remember much of the Rock match, i think i won 2-0. One of the games he died to his Dark Confidant, with help from The Rack.

Engineered Explosives isnt very good against us :laugh:

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That Alluren(?) match, he just mulled a lot and never had a chance (i just saw some creatures in the G-Yard, like Imperial Recruiter, Birds of Paradise and Dreamstalker)

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Gobs 0-2

G1 - He overwhelms me easy with a pretty fast start.

G2 - I mull to 5 trying to find infest, or any creature lockpiece paired with ritual/City of Traitors. I start too slow and totally lose.

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Junk 2-0

G1 - I easily stop his creatures, and lock him out. He has a Vindicate but its far from enough.

G2 - He hits me hard in the beginning, vindicates my Abyss. I play Noetic Scales, and survive to lock him. He plays deed, clears the board. I was lucky. The turn after he played Knight, which would kill me, i topdecked Ensnaring Bridge. He never got another deed and i won.

I wish i had those Pithing Needles on my SD. It would have been much easier. He said he had 1 Deed main, and then boarded 2 more. Our lock is really effective here in this matchup, and deed effects are their only real threats, and their hope relies all into that.

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Merfolks 2-1

G1 - Close game. The Abyss wrecks his army. A Coralhelm Commander, his last creature, leveled to 4 in that turn, brings me to 0.

Sided out Last Rites and the Scepter for Infest.

G2 - I win with The Abyss, Liliana's Caress, Necrogen Mists, and eventually draw and play Ensnaring Bridge.

G3 - was basically the same, but longer. He kept playing Standstill. I really wanted Dark suspicions but never found one. I eventually lock him with 2 The Abyss. He died to The Rack.

Mutavault is really annoying. Noetic Scales and The Abyss dont deal with it. Kira can be a problem, but its too situational.

This should be a good matchup for us, which is pretty good given its one of the best decks out there.

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Belcher 2-1

G1 - He's on the play, combos t2 i think. I mull to 5 and get raped, never finding Last Rites. Sided in Oppression, Chalice, Null Rod. I take out the Scales, Abyss, Ensnaring Bridge, and Scalding Tongs.

G2 - I open with chalice for 0 and Oppression. Landed Liliana's Caress next turn, and played 2 topdecked Hymns. Necrogen Finishes him. He actually played Empty the Warrens for 4 tokens. Too little, too late.

G3 - I draw an insane hand, with 2 Dark rituals, Null Rod, 3 Oppressions and 1 Swamp. Next turns i drew swamps, 2 The Rack, and Hymn (not in that order).

Screw you Belcher!!!! G2 i had Last Rites, which i discarded to Opression. So, no chances for him there. I really wanted to win :tongue:

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I was lucky vs Junk with that topdeck, and vs Belcher too with that insane hand.

Goblins, as expected, its just a hard matchup, but its less popular recently so......

Well, i didnt even use Last Rites. I would have, against Belcher, but Oppression is just better. I rather have something like a mix of 1 Mind Rot with 2 Persecute, or one of the utility cards i mentioned in the beginning of this post.

Also, getting 2 Ancient Tomb for 1 swamp and 1 City could speed things up a bit.

You're right, no tutors needed. Too slow.

Im very satisfied with the results so far.

[Clark Kant]

Thanks for testing the list again. You insights have been invaluable and I think the deck is slowly getting there, ever closer to an optimal build that is strong in any meta. I was thinking about how to address the difficulty you're having against goblins (and i imagine fast aggro in general).

I don't know how I forgot about this card, but Damnation seems like it could be awfully effective in this deck, especially if you're having difficulty with Goblins and Merfolk and the like or Progenitus/Emrakul and the like. It can be played off a Sol Land on turn three. Between Pithing Needle and Null Rod vs Belcher and Damnation plus Infest post board vs. Goblin token, the Belcher matchup should improve considerably as well. :eek:

Damnation could perhaps take the spot of some of the Noetic Scales, some of The Abyss and something else. Do you feel like The Abyss is too slow? If so, Damnation could substitute for it directly, and at a fraction of the price.

I also love the fact that Bottomless Pit, like Necrogen Mists, is NOT card disadvantage especially if you time it well. Your opponent discards first since they have the next upkeep. And if forces your opponent to rush his cards onto the board asap as soon as he sees it, forces him to overextend, which makes him really vulnerable to Noetic Scales/Damnation. :laugh: If none of the other alternative discard outlets seem as strong as Necrogen Mists, then maybe Bottomless Pit should be a 1-2 of supplement to Necrogen Mists instead of the weaker alternatives.

I think I was too hard on Dark Suspicions. It's high mana cost shouldn't matter since you will have more than ample mana to cast it. And it can be brutally effective against control decks until they dump their hand. I hate the fact that it does nothing once they are in topdeck more though. The deck feels like it needs a faster win con.

Also, Phyrexian Arena might have poor synergy with Ensnaring Bridge, and yes it also slowly pings away at your life. But you can probably afford the lifeloss for a while if you're not playing pox, and the card advantage you get in a slow deck like this is enormous. You could see upwards of 10+ cards in a deck like this thanks to Arena, and that is certain to win you the game with a faster The Rack or what not. And if you're low on life as a result of really fast goblins opening or something, you can just discard the Phyrexian Arena to Necrogen Mists or whatever. Going this route, the deck probably would benefit from a tutor to get The Rack faster.

Phyrexian Arena has poor synergy with Dark Suspicions, so it should probably be one or the other, not both together, in the same deck.

[Grollub]

G3 - was basically the same, but longer. He kept playing Standstill. I really wanted Dark suspicions but never found one. I eventually lock him with 2 The Abyss. He died to The Rack.
It's a World Enchantment, you can only have one in play at a time.

[Tiago_B.]

It's a World Enchantment, you can only have one in play at a time.

I didnt remembered that, thanks. Honestly i think i would win with just one. Ill definitly have a friend from my playgroup pilot Merfolk to test again.

Then Damnation could replace a few Noetic Scales/The Abyss (specially the abyss). I remembered about the card, as i have it, Infest just seemed faster, and against slower aggros our lock works fine.

[Grollub]

You might want to consider cheap creature removal - Innocent Blood, Go for the Throat, Smallpox (double as disruption) so you can survive the initial rush to allow your more powerful midgame bombs to take over the game. Lowering the curve will also make it easier to keep/reach the bridge lock.

Looking over your testing reports from the aggro decks, it would appear the lack of interaction in the early game is your achilles heel.

[Tiago_B.]

Looking over your testing reports from the aggro decks, it would appear the lack of interaction in the early game is your achilles heel.

I thought about Inquisition of Kosilek, Innocent Blood, Diabolic Edict (instant removal could deal with animated manlands, emrakul, progenitus).

[vikram]

You might want to consider cheap creature removal - Innocent Blood, Go for the Throat, Smallpox (double as disruption) so you can survive the initial rush to allow your more powerful midgame bombs to take over the game. Lowering the curve will also make it easier to keep/reach the bridge lock.

Looking over your testing reports from the aggro decks, it would appear the lack of interaction in the early game is your achilles heel.

Damnation, and this whole black control concept looks amazing. Those cards on the other hand seem too slow (stuff like Smallpox and Go for the Throat in particular) and don't pack anywhere near as much of a punch. What difference does it make whether or not you kill Goyf asap if all creatures are going to be locked up (or swept away by a Damnation) by turn 3-4 anyways?

With the Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors and Dark Rituals, the deck should be able to cast something useful by turn two at the latest.

Wasteland is a nice way to deal with manlands without eating into your business slots if you are not playing anything that needs more than two black mana (ie. Pox).

Inquisiton should probably be in though, at least sideboard. They are never dead, against any matchup and could help against fast decks. Just don't cut Pithing Needle/Null Rod. You need it against Jace and Painter Stone.

[Grollub]

Damnation, and this whole black control concept looks amazing. Those cards on the other hand seem too slow (stuff like Smallpox and Go for the Throat in particular) and don't pack anywhere near as much of a punch. What difference does it make whether or not you kill Goyf asap if all creatures are going to be locked up (or swept away by a Damnation) by turn 3-4 anyways?
Bombs are only good if you live long enough to drop them. A deck like zoo can easily clip off half your lifebulb, if you don't have some way to slow down their initial rush, before Bridges/Abyss/Scales start taking over the game - at which point Zoo would be in strong position due to it's burn package.

Basically: What'd you rather have against a first turn Nacatl/Lackey - a 4CC answer or a 1-2CC?

Another reason is if your answer cards cost enough to always force you into a tap-out situation you're exceptional fragile against aggro-control too.

[vikram]

Okay, say that Zoo gets you to not 10 but to 7 life by the time you lock up their creatures/put them in topdeck mode.

They play 12 burn spells, so an average of one every five cards they draw. They need three to kill you. So on average you have 15 turns before they kill you.

The Rack kills them in 7 turns. If deck can reliably find and cast a Rack early, it's fine.

The Rack by far the best win condition the deck has, far superior to all the other options especially once your opponent is in topdeck mode.

So I think this deck should cut some win conditions and maybe some of the worse cards to play 4 Beseech the Queen. That way, it can get a Rack online, early, every single game. It only costs four mana to both tutor up and cast The Rack on the same turn. It can also tutor up Ensnaring Bridges or Necrogen Mists as needed.

[Tiago_B.]

Ok, so how about this for testing:


// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
15 [MBS] Swamp (1)
3 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Spells
4 [SHM] Beseech the Queen
1 [SH] Bottomless Pit
2 [PLC] Damnation
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
2 [M11] Liliana's Caress
4 [MR] Necrogen Mists
3 [US] Noetic Scales
1 [AP] Phyrexian Arena
1 [M10] Pithing Needle
1 [5E] Pox
3 [LG] The Abyss
4 [TSB] The Rack

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [ALA] Infest
SB: 3 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 2 [7E] Oppression
SB: 3 [M10] Pithing Needle

This way Beseech the Queen can get almost any card we need. I wanted to include Inquisition of Kosilek (or some kind of removal), but couldnt find a spot for it.

How about Guiltfeeder? Good synergy with the lock, except for The Abyss; packs a good punch. Would be easy target for removal though.

If anyone else could test too, it would be fantastic.

[sean.costello]

Ok, so how about this for testing:



This way Beseech the Queen can get almost any card we need. I wanted to include Inquisition of Kosilek (or some kind of removal), but couldnt find a spot for it.

How about Guiltfeeder? Good synergy with the lock, except for The Abyss; packs a good punch. Would be easy target for removal though.

If anyone else could test too, it would be fantastic.

I don't see why your playing Pox anymore to be honest. This is a totally different deck.

[Clark Kant]

I love the new list. Awesome job Tiago.

Yeah Beseech makes a lot of sense if it's used to tutor up The Rack. A 4cc The Rack would still be worth it imo.

Guiltfeeder is a good idea, but probably not for the current meta that is dominated by creatures and removal for creature (which is also what makes this strategy so strong, you make both creatures and creature removal irrelevant).

The 1 ofs can change as needed. I suppose Pox works as a one of to rapidly deal a ton of damage to your opponent.

[Kich867]

I love the new list. Awesome job Tiago.

Yeah Beseech makes a lot of sense if it's used to tutor up The Rack. A 4cc The Rack would still be worth it imo.

Guiltfeeder is a good idea, but probably not for the current meta that is dominated by creatures and removal for creature (which is also what makes this strategy so strong, you make both creatures and creature removal irrelevant).

The 1 ofs can change as needed. I suppose Pox works as a one of to rapidly deal a ton of damage to your opponent.

I'm still genuinely confused why these lists are being put in the Pox thread when they have nothing to do with Pox, they're mono black hand control decks that don't run Pox or Smallpox. I guess there's some overlap but in general they're pretty different.. Although The Rack in an actual Pox deck would be pretty debilitating.

[Grollub]

Okay, say that Zoo gets you to not 10 but to 7 life by the time you lock up their creatures/put them in topdeck mode.

They play 12 burn spells, so an average of one every five cards they draw. They need three to kill you. So on average you have 15 turns before they kill you.

The Rack kills them in 7 turns. If deck can reliably find and cast a Rack early, it's fine.
This is true under too many assumptions for my test:
1) They don't play with Sylvan Library.
2) They don't draw/have Pridemage to escape the lock.
3) They don't have any burn spells in hand to begin with.
4) They can't turn fetchlands into pseudo-shocks (Steppe Lynx vs Bridge).
5) They don't have Lavamancer.

A few cheap removal spells will help the deck reach the critical mana mass needed to drop it's bombs without having a knife at it's throat. There's no denying that Damnation cards is one helluva lot better than Innocent Blood and cards like Go for the Throat, but without backing support Damnations will very likely become active too late (think how WU/x decks run 4 Plows before Wraths).

@Tiago: How's the mana curve treating you? It looks really, really high.

If looking for more The Rack's, there's always Wheel of Torture and Paupers' Cage.

[Tiago_B.]

The mana curve is still something we have to work on.

Hours ago i lost to goblins 0-2 because of Wasteland and Rishadan port, and while ago i lost to Blue Zoo 1-2 first because of wasteland, and then to burn spells (really long game...took to long to find necrogen mists to decimate his hand, he knows this deck well now so he counters all my beseech the queen and wincons. He sided in Krosan Grip, but it had little effect).

Sun Droplet would work well vs Zoo, since their burn spells are the biggest threat. Maybe just 1, fetchable by Beseech?

[Tiago_B.]

Ill be really busy the next days, so i wont have time to test much, or make a new list...


I can say the deck suffers a lot from artifact/enchantment destruction, as well to mana denial cards like wasteland, or rishadan port. And if we combine that with a fast aggro, its too hard to win.
Zoo is specially hard, they run Qasali Pridemage, Krosan Grip, and sometimes Tin Street Hooligan. Its just too much hate, paired with fast creatures and burn spells.

However, in slower metas it should be fine. This lock works great against slower aggro/control and control decks, specially if we can decimate their hand with Hymn and Necrogen Mists/Bottomless Pit/Oppression, and since we dont run creatures the enemy removal becomes a bunch of dead cards.


I still wonder if the list could benefit from a splash, like green, for Life from the Loam (recover from wasteland, Crucible would also fit), Eternal Witness (could be great in here, specially vs hate), some kind of mana ramp, or even Maelstrom Pulse.

I dont really like Chalice of the Void in the SD. Its great at slowing down combo, but it has a really bad synergy with The Rack, which is the best wincon the deck has, so in the end it just slows both decks. I rather have Duress or Despise in its place.

Maybe Trinisphere and Null Brooch (can be fantastic once both players are in topdeck mode) could also find a spot in there.
The problem is that the list is real tight and its hard to take out cards (even more for a splash).


I also think that we should probaly create a topic for this deck in Developmental and stop posting here, but that's up to Clark Kant, since he came up with the ideia.

[Clark Kant]

I unfortunately won't be able to play the deck much either. I have a major move and a new job starting up soon that will eat up my time, so I'll have maybe an hour or two to play it this Wednesday, and then will have to take some time off from Magic till I get used to the job and find a new playgroup in a new city :(

Feel free to take over the list Tiago. You contributed more to it than I have. If you want to start a threat at the Developmental forum, go for it. And thanks for all the advancements you've made to the deck already.

[lawlladin]

So after playing my current rendition of BW Pox I've been considering switching to a different version of the deck to try out. I would like to try out a pox deck that runs enlightened tutors and beseech the queens to fetch the locks that are specific to your match up or that you just need to complete your lock. I just slapped this list together really quick but I'm pretty excited about trying it out. Let me know what you think! I've switched back and forth with the swords being an innocent blood or path to exile. I can't decide if innocent blood which has no collateral damage to pox but lacks being able to target or the path/swords which target but go against the pox are better. I also can't decide if the tool box is too large and I should be running more of the most important things or if the tool box itself is a strength.

//Spells
2x Beseech the Queen
4x Duress
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Pox
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Vindicate

//Enchantments
1x Desolation
1x Necrogen Mists
1x The Abyss

//Artifacts
2x Chimeric Idol
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Noetic Scales
1x Phyrexian Totem
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sun Droplet
3x The Rack

//Lands
4x Scrubland
4x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
4x Swamp
2x Plains
2x Wasteland

[TokenMaster]

I'm currently playing a Wasteland-less build, since I haven't encountered many matchups where it would have made a significant difference. It's nice to have, but it can also royally screw you over if you get it while in a disadvantageous board position, and it's somewhat useless against decks that rely on Vial. Instead, I'm playing a lot more creatures so that I can keep the pressure going against opponents. From my experience, getting 2-3 of less than ten creatures sworded, dismembered, pathed, etc. really hurts.

Wasteland-less Midrange Pox

14 Creatures
4 Bloodghast
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Nihilith
3 Tombstalker
1 Abyssal Persecutor

23 noncreature
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Innocent Blood
2 Dark Ritual
3 Pox

23 land
16 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

15 sideboard
3 Ravenous Trap
4 Mental Misstep
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Dark Ritual
3 Dismember

Matchup Results:

Vial Goblins: 8-8 (8-2 against non-Food Chain, aka the modern build)

I'd say Aether Vial is by far the most troublesome card for this deck, hence the mainboard Pithing Needles and 3 Inquisitions and 3 Dismembers in the side. That said, I think goblins is not too bad of a matchup, as long as you can slow down their early momentum.(their first 1-2 turns) Being able to get a turn 2 Smallpox on the play against a turn 1 Lackey makes a good day. Vampire Nighthawk is really good at picking off smaller goblins mid-game while minimizing or outright preventing damage from unblocked attacks. Most of the games I lost were against turn one vials or random Food Chain into Goblin Ringleader loops.

Merfolk: 0-2

Easily the hardest matchup I've played. Vial, and on top of that, they have Force of Will, Mental Misstep, and Daze. Daze seems quite strong against Pox, since the lord spamming forces Pox players to act fast and frequently tap out early. Vampire Nighthawk makes it slightly less bad. I'm thinking about putting in 2-3 Gatekeeper of Malakir in the sideboard for this and other midrange matchups.

Ad Nauseam: 4-2

Actually a pretty favorable matchup, even moreso postboard. At first I thought I had to worry about losing to early goldfishing, but Pox does have early answers, and Ravenous Trap can shut down combos off of Ill-Gotten Gains. Vampire Nighthawk also makes it more difficult for the opponent to kill you later on if they fail to kill you early. Furthermore, a well-timed Pox HURTS.

The Rock: 3-3

I'm not sure what to think of this matchup, since the opponent does have outs in the form of Dark Confidant, and they have just as much disruption, if not moreso. Tarmogoyf also gets pretty big in this matchup. Vampire Nighthawk was an MVP for my wins.

Show and Tell (several variants) - 3-6 (1-2 against Hive Mind, 2-4 against Dream Halls)

This is probably one of the few matchups where I'd actually like to have Wasteland. Playing the matchup is actually not hard, but the opponent still has a chance of randomly comboing off and killing you. Inquisitions and Mental Misstep on the right targets help. The good news is that Show and Tell into Emrakul doesn't scare this deck as much as it would others, thanks to all your sacrifice removal.

Matchups i still want to test:

Dredge
Landstill
Enchantress
Zoo
Countertop

Cards the deck is afraid of:

Aether Vial - instant-speed creature playing for no mana, and comes out on turn one. Seems to be Pox's worst nightmare, unless someone can think of something else.

Elspeth, Knight-Errant - Letting your opponent get a serious clock with evasion as well as a token generator is not good.

Daze - As the deck has a somewhat-high mana curve and is suicidal with its own lands, the deck is vulnerable to a well-timed Daze.

Show and Tell - not so much a counter against the deck as it is the ability to win out of nowhere even while on the verge of losing.

[Tiago_B.]

So after playing my current rendition of BW Pox I've been considering switching to a different version of the deck to try out. I would like to try out a pox deck that runs enlightened tutors and beseech the queens to fetch the locks that are specific to your match up or that you just need to complete your lock. I just slapped this list together really quick but I'm pretty excited about trying it out. Let me know what you think! I've switched back and forth with the swords being an innocent blood or path to exile. I can't decide if innocent blood which has no collateral damage to pox but lacks being able to target or the path/swords which target but go against the pox are better. I also can't decide if the tool box is too large and I should be running more of the most important things or if the tool box itself is a strength.

//Spells
2x Beseech the Queen
4x Duress
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Pox
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Vindicate

//Enchantments
1x Desolation
1x Necrogen Mists
1x The Abyss

//Artifacts
2x Chimeric Idol
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Noetic Scales
1x Phyrexian Totem
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sun Droplet
3x The Rack

//Lands
4x Scrubland
4x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
4x Swamp
2x Plains
2x Wasteland


Im very interested in your build. Please share your experiences after you test it.

Tokenmaster, have you considered Bitterblossom? Why Shizo? I rather have Smother than Dismember, might help your Junk/Merfolk matchup a little, since it hits any Fish, as well as Confidant, Goyf and Knight, and the life loss from dismember sometimes hits too hard (even if it helps vs faster decks).

[Tiago_B.]

All right, after all those MBC lists, this one seems closer to optimal. Much lower curve, with a lot of tutoring to find what we need, providing the flexibility the deck needed.


Main Deck:

4 Beseech the Queen
3 Bitterblossom
4 Dark Ritual
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Necrogen Mists
1 Phyrexian Arena
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Smother
4 The Rack

1 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
15 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard:
2 Damnation
3 Infest
4 Null Rod
2 Oppression
4 Pithing Needle

Trust me, the 8 tutor/top effects are great. And the low cost removal makes it easier to survive. BitterBlossom helps in defending, and is nice with Bridge. I also thought about switching 1 Innocent Blood and 2 Smother for IoK.

I am sorry about keep posting this kind of lists here, but the deck was 'born' here so...

Ill be creating a topic for it in developmental section, when i have time to test and write about matchup analysis.
Its hard to find a good monoblack control in Legacy, so i hope the thread gets some atention from players who are looking for this type of deck.



And now to put this thread back on tracks, my Pox list:


Lands

20 Swamp
3 Mishra's Factory

Creatures

4 Tombstalker
2 Nihilith
2 Necroplasm

Spells

2 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Animate Dead
4 Smother
4 Smallpox
4 Disfigure
4 Pox
4 Hymn to Tourach

Sideboard

4 Ratchet Bomb
3 Duress
4 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of The Void

Pretty much a budget list, inspired on BowVamp's, which i think it should be the right approach. Ill probably get a couple Urborgs. I also thought about cards like Snuff Out and Dismember, but for now im running Disfigure and Innocent Blood for t1 removal.

[Matthias]

Hi and thanks @Tiago for coming back to the topic. This should be about Pox decks and not MBC which is pretty different. More props to Tiago for playing Necroplasm, I had to look it up :-) What's your experience with this card.

I've recently changed my Pox build rather radically, cutting Mishras and Tombstalkers altogether, and focusing on Pox's main strength: Disruption. This is my acutal list:

17 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Crucible of Worlds

4 Bloodghast
4 Nihilith

4 Innocent Blood
4 Geth's Verdict

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Pox

Sideboard:

4 Extirpate
4 Pithing Needle
3 Reanimate
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Surgical Extraction

I really had doubts to cut Tombstalker (Pox's best win option so far) and Mishra (recurring beater and the best way to hold opposing Jaces in check), and by relying on two win conditions, I make myself quite vulnerable to Extirpate, but after testing the deck quite extensively and playing in two tournaments I'm quite happy with the changes.

Nihilith and pox effects are obviously a great synergy. Usually Nihilith hits the Battlefield after 2-3 turns as the rest of the deck focuses on binning you opponents permanents and lands. And with the triggered ability being a may ability, you can perfectly time its entering the battlefield (with haste!) to greatest effect.

The rest of the deck is pretty standard: 8 removal spells, 8 discard spells, 8 LD spells and 8 pox effects. I chose Duress as 1-Mana discard spell because there are so many ways to deal with creatures on the battlefield that it's not worth running Thoughtseize or Inquisition.

The sideboard runs a severe anti control/combo package with 5 extirpate effects (which you also need to fight Life from the Loam, your nightmare 2-mana-sorcery) and 3 Chains of Mephitopheles, as you won't need more removal than you got with the poxes. Reanimate shines against Knight/Crusher/Tarmogoyf or other undercosted threats. Needle is mainly agains Aether Vial which quite effectively hoses you.

I posted this because I'd like to remember that "pure" Pox lists are still competitive and also great fun to play (I just like games where you wont have more than 8 permanents on the table, overall). There's nothing than to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear their lamentation of "loosing to this crap mono black deck piloted by a noob lucksack".

[jin]

Hi and thanks @Tiago for coming back to the topic. This should be about Pox decks and not MBC which is pretty different. More props to Tiago for playing Necroplasm, I had to look it up :-) What's your experience with this card.

I've recently changed my Pox build rather radically, cutting Mishras and Tombstalkers altogether, and focusing on Pox's main strength: Disruption. This is my acutal list:

17 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Crucible of Worlds

4 Bloodghast
4 Nihilith

4 Innocent Blood
4 Geth's Verdict

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Pox

Sideboard:

4 Extirpate
4 Pithing Needle
3 Reanimate
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Surgical Extraction

I really had doubts to cut Tombstalker (Pox's best win option so far) and Mishra (recurring beater and the best way to hold opposing Jaces in check), and by relying on two win conditions, I make myself quite vulnerable to Extirpate, but after testing the deck quite extensively and playing in two tournaments I'm quite happy with the changes.

Nihilith and pox effects are obviously a great synergy. Usually Nihilith hits the Battlefield after 2-3 turns as the rest of the deck focuses on binning you opponents permanents and lands. And with the triggered ability being a may ability, you can perfectly time its entering the battlefield (with haste!) to greatest effect.

The rest of the deck is pretty standard: 8 removal spells, 8 discard spells, 8 LD spells and 8 pox effects. I chose Duress as 1-Mana discard spell because there are so many ways to deal with creatures on the battlefield that it's not worth running Thoughtseize or Inquisition.

The sideboard runs a severe anti control/combo package with 5 extirpate effects (which you also need to fight Life from the Loam, your nightmare 2-mana-sorcery) and 3 Chains of Mephitopheles, as you won't need more removal than you got with the poxes. Reanimate shines against Knight/Crusher/Tarmogoyf or other undercosted threats. Needle is mainly agains Aether Vial which quite effectively hoses you.

I posted this because I'd like to remember that "pure" Pox lists are still competitive and also great fun to play (I just like games where you wont have more than 8 permanents on the table, overall). There's nothing than to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear their lamentation of "loosing to this crap mono black deck piloted by a noob lucksack".

Hey, great list. I've also liked nihilith in the deck for obvious reasons. What I don't like about your current list is the amount of discard you have in there. I think the Gerrard's Verdict is overkill and possibly unnecessary. With all of the Sensei's Top in the format, it seems weak to not play any yourself since Pox decks often play in Topdeck mode and Sensei's Top makes Topdeck mode a lot easier to play. Further more, with all of the Sensei's Top in the format, it seems weak to play purely discard since many decks can operate fine with just playing off the top of their decks.

Thus, once you have put them at 0 cards in hand, your nihilith no longer fully takes advantage of the suspend counters and any additional nihilith after that would be rendered significantly slower.

Have you ever considered a Bg list which plays with large creatures like Nihilith/Tombstalker/other big beaters along with Pernicious Deed? I think Pernicious Deed is a significantly more powerful card than Gerrard's Verdict. Coupling the sweeper with spot removal like Innocent Blood and possibly Small Pox and Big Pox, the deck would run a lot like BUGstill with discard replacing countermagic.

What do you think?

[clavio]

@Matthias I'm wondering if you would want to run something instead of innocnent blood. It's going to be Mental Misstepped when alot of times when it would matter. Nonshroud removal is probably less important now that people aren't really playing nimble mongoose. I guess it still hits lackey.

Ratchet Bomb?

[Tiago_B.]

Have you ever considered a Bg list which plays with large creatures like Nihilith/Tombstalker/other big beaters along with Pernicious Deed? I think Pernicious Deed is a significantly more powerful card than Gerrard's Verdict. Coupling the sweeper with spot removal like Innocent Blood and possibly Small Pox and Big Pox, the deck would run a lot like BUGstill with discard replacing countermagic.


Could also run LftL for recurring manlands and wasteland, Goyf, Pulse. I can see that working, but not with Pox 'itself'. However, Smallpox would be viable. You could even use Natural Order+toolbox/Progenitus. But that wouldnt be a Pox deck.



@Matthias I'm wondering if you would want to run something instead of innocnent blood. It's going to be Mental Misstepped when alot of times when it would matter. Nonshroud removal is probably less important now that people aren't really playing nimble mongoose. I guess it still hits lackey.

Ratchet Bomb?

I agree on this. Maybe even just drop Innocent Blood and play 4 MM.

[Tiago_B.]

Have you ever considered a Bg list which plays with large creatures like Nihilith/Tombstalker/other big beaters along with Pernicious Deed? I think Pernicious Deed is a significantly more powerful card than Gerrard's Verdict. Coupling the sweeper with spot removal like Innocent Blood and possibly Small Pox and Big Pox, the deck would run a lot like BUGstill with discard replacing countermagic.


Could also run LftL for recurring manlands and wasteland, Goyf, Pulse. I can see that working, but not with Pox 'itself'. However, Smallpox would be viable. You could even use Natural Order+toolbox/Progenitus. But that wouldnt be a Pox deck.



@Matthias I'm wondering if you would want to run something instead of innocnent blood. It's going to be Mental Misstepped when alot of times when it would matter. Nonshroud removal is probably less important now that people aren't really playing nimble mongoose. I guess it still hits lackey.

Ratchet Bomb?

I agree on this. Maybe even just drop Innocent Blood and play 4 MM.

[jin]

Could also run LftL for recurring manlands and wasteland, Goyf, Pulse. I can see that working, but not with Pox 'itself'. However, Smallpox would be viable. You could even use Natural Order+toolbox/Progenitus. But that wouldnt be a Pox deck.



I get your point, but I don't see how it can't work with pox. pox needs a sweeper, and this is the best one.

everytime I rely on pox to destroy a swarm, I end up leavin gonly the fatties in play.. i think this deck needs a sweeper, and damnation just isnt that hot.

[Tiago_B.]

My point was that Pox needs black mana, and that need would make the manabase weaker in a 2-colored deck. That could be helped by running Dark Ritual.

Other than that, i dont see why they couldnt be in the same list.

[jin]

My point was that Pox needs black mana, and that need would make the manabase weaker in a 2-colored deck. That could be helped by running Dark Ritual.

Other than that, i dont see why they couldnt be in the same list.

i don't see how a couple of bayous and a couple of fetchlands can possibly affect casting pox.. we run urborg anyway.. well at least I do.

[Tiago_B.]

Well then, maybe getting your lands wasted could affect casting Pox......

LftL solves that....But against decks that put you on clock, losing a turn to LftL because u got wastelanded.....

Still, there are quite a few PoxLoam builds, even in this thread i think. Have you been working on a list? Could you post it?

[jin]

Well then, maybe getting your lands wasted could affect casting Pox......

LftL solves that....But against decks that put you on clock, losing a turn to LftL because u got wastelanded.....

Still, there are quite a few PoxLoam builds, even in this thread i think. Have you been working on a list? Could you post it?

welll I was thinking something like this:

23 lands
4x bayou
2x urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4x verdant catacombs
2x marsh flats
11 swamp

14 threats
4x nihilith
4x gathan raider
4x tombstalker
2x vampire nighthawk

23 spells
4x smallpox
4x innocent blood
4x pernicious deed
2x pox
4x hymn to tourach
4x duress/thoughtseize (whatever you fancy)
1x Life from the Loam

Just a thought, I haven't reallly tested it. personally, I'm more interested in contamination...

[Top Deck]

This is the new version of Pox that i am running. I have finally gotten a more fine tuned version which focuses primarily on a quick kill with pox board wipe effects.

here's the list:

3x berserk
4x death's shadow
4x lurking evil
4x bloodghast

4x infernal contract
4x sign in blood

3x inquistion of kozlek
4x pox
4x smallpox

4x bayou
1x forest
9x swamp
4x marsh flats
4x verdant catacombs


what made the deck for me was the lurking evil. it offered a few things that the deck lacked before in the past. it gave us a reliable way to go to 1 life quickly to turbo power up death's shadow since you can activate the ability if it is in an enchantment state or creature state. it doesn't lose this ability. it also has evasion from pox and wrath effects and basically can win on it own much like tombstalker.

pox and smallpox keep opponents in line with symmetrical resource loss effects; however, our guys like death's shadow can take tremendous advantage of our lifeloss, and of course sign in blood is a great card draw mechanism or finisher.

[zathe922]

Hello, i would like to know how good pox plays against todays decks. Can it keep up with decks like cawblade or merfolk? Is the deck still competetive?


I will probably post a list i made later when i find out how to. (First post, yay)

[iamfrightenedtoo]

Hello, i would like to know how good pox plays against todays decks. Can it keep up with decks like cawblade or merfolk? Is the deck still competetive?

I will probably post a list i made later when i find out how to. (First post, yay)

i have played every version of pox known to Mtg, in every period of the game, since tempest.
i (do not have all the big money cards) for this list, but have been play testing it, to see if it would be worth investing the money.

4 sinkhole
4 pox
4 small pox
4 duress
4 hymn to tourach
3 bloodghast
4 reanimate
4 geth's verdict
2 black sun's zenith
4 extirpate
4 dark ritual
4 mox diamond
3 chrome mox
12 swamp

i rarely have mana problems, so Black Sun's Zenith is a decent board sweep,
i also run ensnaring bridges too, it is easy to get the bloodghasts under the bridge, also i rarely have a hand. this version, also, has no real win condition.
i have been working with nether traitor because of the shadow, and their ability to come back onto the board, once a bloodghast leaves.
reanimate works well, i do not care about the life loss, even with pox, but reanimate and bridge do not really work that well together, but it lets me sac one of my opponents creatures for a pox, instead of my own nether traitor(when in) which does get under the bridge easy enough.

[lyracian]

4 dark ritual
4 mox diamond
3 chrome mox
12 swamp
Seven Moxen seems a bit high even for a Pox deck! Black Sun seems a good edition to the deck

[Climax]

This is the list I'm testing atm:


4 Wasteland
4 Cabal Pit
4 Mishras Factory
4 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth
8 Swamp
4 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Geths Verdict
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourarch
4 Crucible of worlds
4 Tombstalker

SB:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Wretched banquet
4 Ghastly Demnise
3 Duress

4 Crucibles are necassary because its the only way to get an advantage in my build.
Due the rising midrange decks acceleration isnt played.
4 Cabal Pits are a pretty good way to keep merfolk in track.

The sideboard mostly includes solutions for the faster aggro decks.

Testing shows quite good results

[mistercakes]

you might want to run diabolic edict instead of geth b/c of single black

[lordofthepit]

While Pox certainly won't be a Tier 1 (or even Tier 2) deck by any stretch of the imagination, it seems like the new Liliana (http://mtgsalvation.com/innistrad-spoiler.html#5455) might fit in this archetype like a glove.

[Koby]

The new Lilliana might be reason enough to start running Dark Ritual again.

[Gui]

Name: Liliana of the Veil
Cost: :1::b::b:
Type: Planeswalker - Liliana
Pow/Tgh: 3
Rules Text:
+1: Each player discards a card.
-2: Target player sacrifices a creature.
-6: Separate all permanents target player controls into two piles. That player sacrifices all permanents in the pile of his or her choice.

Just to make it easier...
New Liliana is hella sexy in Pox.

[Richard Cheese]

New Liliana suddenly made me want to try out Pox, here's the list I've been toying with so far:


4 Bloodghast
3 Bitterblossom
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Innocent Blood
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Duress

4 Wasteland
8 Swamp
4 Mental Misstep
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Mox Diamond


Duress was Hymn, but it didn't feel as useful with all the other discard the deck packs. I'm wondering if it might be more prudent to drop the Moxes + a few lands for some combination of The Rack and either another Liliana or Hymns. Also thought about Raven's Crime + Dakmor Salvage, but haven't done any testing to see if it's actually effective or just cute.

Thoughts?

[Koby]

I would drop Moxen completely in place for Rituals, and then reintroduce The Rack to work in conjunction with Lilliana. I would definitely try to put in Inquisition of Kozilek which provides better utility to clear creatures from your opponent's hand.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I was actually gonna say, if you're running Mox then Crucible of Worlds should be in there, maybe even Maze. It seems like Hymn to Tourach should be in that list if you're planning on accellerating. I don't understand the fetchland, since you're not running Tombstalker I guess.

[pocari79]

With the new Liliana maybe it's time to maindeck some Vengeful Pharaoh? With Liliana 2.0, you have a recurrable discard outlet for it and these two cards provide two free ways to kill creatures which is really nice because then you can use your mana to disrupt them in some other manner.

[Richard Cheese]

I was actually gonna say, if you're running Mox then Crucible of Worlds should be in there, maybe even Maze. It seems like Hymn to Tourach should be in that list if you're planning on accellerating. I don't understand the fetchland, since you're not running Tombstalker I guess.

Fetches are just there to provide more Bloodghast recursion opportunities, thereby making Innocent Blood and Cabal Therapy slightly better. It also lets you keep up the pressure in the early game by letting you get back your Ghast(s) during your opponents turn.

I think I'll definitely try out cutting Mox for some combination of Rack/Liliana/Hymns. Just not sure what the optimal number of lands is to be resilient to Smallpox, consistently activate Bloodghast, and still cast Liliana.

[Koby]

Fetches are just there to provide more Bloodghast recursion opportunities, thereby making Innocent Blood and Cabal Therapy slightly better. It also lets you keep up the pressure in the early game by letting you get back your Ghast(s) during your opponents turn.

I think I'll definitely try out cutting Mox for some combination of Rack/Liliana/Hymns. Just not sure what the optimal number of lands is to be resilient to Smallpox, consistently activate Bloodghast, and still cast Liliana.

With Ritual, you can go as low as 21 - but that's cutting it close. I'd say 22-23 is more optimal. This doesn't count for Bloodghast I realize, so maybe a few fetchlands are justified in that case.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

i have been playtesting this, does well against most tier 1, RDW is almost always a game 1 auto loss though.

the core

18 swamp

4 duress
4 hymn to tourach
2 reanimate
3 dark ritual

4 pox
4 small pox
4 geth's verdict

4 wall of souls
4 nether traitor
3 bloodghast

3 ensnaring bridge

57 cards, i throw in random cards when i play tournaments to try different things.

lately i have been running 3 underworld dreams, 2 zombie infestation. i take out 1 nether traitor for the extra cards, and run 61, i have also been running 62 with i Nantuko shade.

i like Geth's verdict over Diabolic edict, because A: the double black doesn't bother me, and B: it deals 1 life loss.
there are more creature based decks than ever, and wall of souls helps a lot. it wins games against zoo.
my deck usually runs a little more aggro than most, even with the ensnaring bridge. the creatures i run are low on power and can sneak under the bridge, especially the traitor's which 100% of popular decks cannot block anyway.

underworld dreams, while slow is a decent add in, my metta is heavy draw. my opponents cannot go crazy with mind sculptor and brain storms.

i use three rituals over four, because unless i run zombie infestation, i never want to draw a ritual after turn 7. i never have mana problems even while running only 18 swamps. i do not mess with moxes anymore, or any kind of mana ramp beyond ritual.

i have also been thinking about evil presence. it is a spell, which can be countered, i like that a lot. it doesnt junk up my mana base by drawing lands that cant produce black mana i.e. wasteland or ghost quarter. i have not tested evil presence yet, but have been considering it.

[Smea.gol.lum]

I've proxied Liliana up and have run her in MWS and must say that it's the biggest bomb Pox could ever have dreamt of :)
It harmonizes with Pox's overall strategy, builds a nice bridge between discard against control and combo and creature removal against aggro and it solves Pox's traditional problem of not being able to capitalize on a clear board.
It's an auto-4-of and pushes Pox to a better deck (I don't think Pox is as bad as many people claim, although its weaknesses against a resolved Jace are obvious :P)

[Koby]

I'm definitely interested in making Pox viable again now that I've seen Liliana. Here's a list that I'm proposing once Innistrad is legal:

Mana source [25]:
10 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual

Attrition [27]
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pox
4 Ratchet Bomb

Beatsticks [8]
3 Nether Spirit
3 Tombstalker
2 The Rack

I think the Rack is probably ill-fitting in here, but it's a reliable and relatively quick way to finish off the opponent. Pithing Needle might also be good, along with either Crucible to break the symmetry, or Ensnaring Bridge to shut off the combat step. Liliana's Caress might be another neat solution, but is probably much weaker than Rack.

[Smea.gol.lum]

@rukcus: I wouldn't go below 23 lands with 7 pox effects. Also, I think that Sensei's Divining Top is a must-include.

I play Culling Scales over Ratchet Bomb, but I would like what you guys have experienced with The Rack.
I would like to test it, but i can' t play it alongside Culling Scales due to obvious dissynergy.
Is the Rack a reliable finisher or does it often do not enough??

[Richard Cheese]

@rukcus: I wouldn't go below 23 lands with 7 pox effects. Also, I think that Sensei's Divining Top is a must-include.

I play Culling Scales over Ratchet Bomb, but I would like what you guys have experienced with The Rack.
I would like to test it, but i can' t play it alongside Culling Scales due to obvious dissynergy.
Is the Rack a reliable finisher or does it often do not enough??

I personally haven't been super impressed with the Rack in testing, but the deck def. needs some kind of finisher, swinging with 2/x's just takes so long to get there.

[Koby]

I have been thinking that Crucible is the best use for the 2x slot. This gives you inevitability with Mishra's Factory and Wasteland, as well as allowing you to recover from Pox/Liliana discards.

[bakofried]

I don't think I can get behind Sinkhole.

[Clark Kant]

So they printed a Planeswalker basically built specifically for Pox (and Braids Stax)...

Surprised no one is talking about it.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123312&d=1314763231

Even if used simply as a 3cc Diabolic Edict that you can discard a card to to reuse one more time, it's still a solid deal.

The deck I play built around Necrogen Mists, Ensnaring Bridge and Noetic Scales is chomping at the bit to get it's hands on this card.

[jin]

So they printed a Planeswalker basically built specifically for Pox (and Braids Stax)...

Surprised no one is talking about it.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123312&d=1314763231

Even if used simply as a 3cc Diabolic Edict that you can discard a card to to reuse one more time, it's still a solid deal.

I think that's what they've been talking about in the last page.. "how to incorporate liliana"

[Clark Kant]

Oops sorry, I didn't read the previous page.

I think it has a ton of potential in the more controllish versions of the deck that are built around Noetic Scales and Ensnaring Bridge.

[Amon Amarth]

I don't think I can get behind Sinkhole.

I'm new to Pox; what would you recommend replacing it with?

[iamfrightenedtoo]

i am thinking of either running the depths combo in pox, or the buried ooze combo.
with the burries ooze combo there is no need for pox at all, so that one might not work but the depths combo, is a perfect fit.

pox cannot deal with a planewalker that hits the table. i have been playing this dumb deck for a decade, and when Jace came out, instant problem if i could not RFG it, or dump it into their yard.

Vampire Hexmage is a huge help, actually it is the perfect fit for the deck, it a firststrike dork, and a planeswalker killer.

and if you are behind me in thinking that hexmage is a good fit, why not put in Dark depths.

also,

sinkhole is garbage, decks run way too many lands now and days for it to matter. i also think small pox is a worthless card too.
in this format if your playing a deck with a lot of creatures asking your opponent to choose one does nothing, getting rid of only one land does nothing, especially if they get to choose.

i started running pox for one reason,
life loss, from 20 your at 13. from 13 your at 8. at this point, there is no reason to pox again, lightning bolt-helix, and chain lightning can too easily kill you. if your not playing against RDW or zoo, it does not matter as much, as most other decks cannot deal small amounts of direct damage.

the lands creature and hands portion of pox is awesome, it is an added bonus, but nothing i ever count on.

a must have in a pox deck however, is Ensnaring bridge.
it helps with BUG, NO RUG, zoo, merfolk.... all decks with the exception of combo, and it works against depths combo.

i know i said in the beginning that depths just fits with pox, and i said that Ensnaring Bridge needs to be in all of them. this makes no sense to a lot of people, but Ratchet bomb is a great addition to this deck, and would make it so you could clear your Bridge.

also damnation, why this is not an auto 2-3 slot i do not know why.

[Koby]

I'm new to Pox; what would you recommend replacing it with?

I could imagine that Gatekeeper of Malakir would be a decent replacement, but it doesn't address the same resource. I think with Ratchet Bomb handling permanents, Sinkhole is a fine card to use. Most decks I've faced seem to have difficulty with the extra LD in conjunction with Wasteland and Smallpox.

The point of the deck isn't to completely cut them off a single resource, but to attack all resources simultaneously (lands, hand, and creatures) to the point that future topdecks are weak.

I think good Sideboard cards for this deck are:
Cursed Totem
Damping Matrix
Null Rod
Pithing Needle
Perish
Engineered Plague
Inquisition of Kozilek
Thoughtseize
Extirpate
Nihil Spellbomb
Leyline of the Void
Planar Void
Sadistic Sacrement
Consuming Vapors
Vampire Hexmage


The last is to deal with Planeswalkers, which might be the biggest weakness of this deck. In the past Funeral Charm has been use to deal with the "Lackey" problem, but doesn't kill SFM.

[Amon Amarth]

Cool, thanks for the response. It seems like Sinkhole would be awesome here because Liliana adds even more LD effects to the deck. So many Green decks bank on Noble Hierarch living so a Smallpox followed up by a Sinkhole can really lock people out.

[Koby]

Cool, thanks for the response. It seems like Sinkhole would be awesome here because Liliana adds even more LD effects to the deck. So many Green decks bank on Noble Hierarch living so a Smallpox followed up by a Sinkhole can really lock people out.

That's exactly correct. Even Stoneblade relies on SFM surviving, then ramping to Jace. Smallpox and Sinkhole prevent that progression, with Duress/Hymn knocking out the equipment. The major difficulty in this archetype is finishing the game after the short-term gain has been realized.

Liliana would help as a bridge betwen the early game disruption and the late game kill-con. Typically Pox followed by 2-3 turns of Mishra beats are sufficient.

[Richard Cheese]

New to the deck, but really like Sinkhole so far. It's true that it's fallen out of favor in a lot of lists because there's so much acceleration and the overall curve of the format is really low, but in a deck that already has 4 Wasteland and 4 Smallpox, it's pretty damn good.

[bowvamp]

My current list after Innistrad comes out:
//Main Deck:

1 Necroplasm
1 Nihilith
3 Tombstalker

4 Liliana
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Mental Misstep
4 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox

3 Mishra's Factory
12 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

//Sideboard:
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Do or Die
4 Duress
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Sun Droplet


Changes:
-2 MM
-2 Swamp
-4 Disfigure
+4 Dark Ritual
+4 Liliana

I consider this to be a new age of pox. Dark Ritual is absolutely necessary with a bomb like liliana, if it hits play the first turn of the game, the opponent has a very hard time recovering. Factories and Nihilith are my two best outs against Jace TMS. That and preventing them from ever getting to 4 mana ;P

[bruizar]

I don't think I can get behind Sinkhole.

Sinkhole is the biggest trap ever. Very cute to play with beta sinkholes, but sadly not good enough.

[Koby]

Mana source [26]:
10 11 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual

Attrition [26]
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 2 Pox
4 Ratchet Bomb

Beatsticks [8]
3 Nether Spirit
3 Tombstalker
2 The Rack Crucible of Worlds


Some changes after playtesting against Stoneblade. People are correct in suggesting more land, it's very much needed. The Rack was quickly replaced with Crucible to take advantage of Mishra's Factory/Wasteland recursion.

Liliana is a BOMB, 100% for sure remaining in the deck. Nether Spirit also worked well, but often got StP'd, which isn't a strike against it, but shows how useful it is for the deck. It acts as a Maze of Ith and protects Liliana to a degree.

I saw someone post Necroplasm, which is okay but not great. I prefer Ratchet Bomb in that it can kill Jace 2.0, and Standstill. Sinkhole plays fine, but I may cut 1 out for another Swamp/Urborg.

[Amon Amarth]

How often is your opponent going to find and resolve Jace against a deck like this? That seems unlikely.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

How often is your opponent going to find and resolve Jace against a deck like this? That seems unlikely.



often, very often. you still have to resolve discard, and you still have to draw it. and trust me, it is easier to have answers for the Jace, because once it is in play, you cannot deal with it.

damnation is better than ratchet bomb, and Hex is better than Ratchet bomb, i realize that, those are two slots over one ratchet, but Hex is also a chump blocker with first strike.

i do not know who said it but, sinkhole is a trap, it is not good. too slow, where there are more versatile cards available

[Koby]

Hex? I think there is something lost in translation. Ratchet Bomb deals with Artifacts too, which is important. The key is not to play high cc cards and be able to play all your cards with 3 mana (lands or Ritual).

Swamp, Ritual, Liliana is a very strong play in the current metagame.

[Amon Amarth]

The more I think about the better Pox gets. NO RUG and Stoneblade seem ill-equipped to handle all of the disruption that this deck has at it's disposal. Both rely on specific spells resolving and sticking and are ill equipped to attrition you out when you are able to keep up the pressure with Liliana. Liliana is insane because no one is playing Spell Pierce. Yeah, they can Force her but FoW is pretty bad against any deck that packs Hymn to Tourach. I'm officially excited. Pox looks like it can be a really player in the post-Innistrad metagame. It doesn't hurt that I'm in love with mono-black either. :)

[iamfrightenedtoo]

Hex? I think there is something lost in translation. Ratchet Bomb deals with Artifacts too, which is important. The key is not to play high cc cards and be able to play all your cards with 3 mana (lands or Ritual).

Swamp, Ritual, Liliana is a very strong play in the current metagame.


the only things i have problems with in pox, (and it has been this way since Stronghold) are decks like zoo, which deal out large amounts of creatures for a little amount of mana.

the other problem i have, is a resolved mind sculptor. the only real efficient answer to mind sculptor i have found is Vampire Hexmage, we call it simply hex where i come from.

Vampire Hexmage fits nicely into the deck, kills off jace, kills of chalice. i have to worry about chalice in my metagame. another awesome thing with running Vampire Hexmage, is you can then easily run Dark Depths, and not really have to rely on the combo.

i was going to run either pox or affinity at the Pittsburgh Star city open, and got suckered into running a friend's train wreck deck, the whole time i played, i wished i had Vampire Hexmage, because out of the six matches i played, i ran into five decks that ran ran Mild Sculptor, two of which also ran Elspeth. the sixth deck was zoo.

decks like zoo, are just impossible. to be effective you need to cast two pox, which puts you at 8, and in an very vulnerable state in which your a creature swing, and two burn spells away from losing, and with zoo, all that is very easy. 8 pox, 4 edict spells, and maybe 4 more, that is 16 spells against creatures, and only 4 of which can get multiple creatures. this is where ratchet bomb comes in handy, because the best zoo decks are one drop decks, and you can tag multiple creatures, IDK i just like damnation better there. Ratchet bomb is awesome, and the best destruction card for mono colored decks, but again, on turn 2 and above, you can wipe the board of creatures, on turn one, you can start the ratchet bomb, but it needs multiple turns to go off, and by then zoo can deal 12 damage without trying.

let me save a lot of you a lot of time, stop. pox is not worth it, it is the best magic card ever printed next to Yawgmoth's will, but the deck as a whole, has two problems.
the first problem, it is slow, always, it cannot be fast, the manabase and the main card do not allow it. the second problem, talk all you like about any creature, there is no effective win condition. any win condition you could possibly want to put into the deck make you hesitate to actually play Pox, and the deck is called Pox. if you are going to be hesitant to play the marque card, why play it at all. Nihilith- phyrexian obliterator, tomb stalker, all die when you pox. nether traitor, nether spirit, bloodghast, all can be brought back into play but two of them are not effective because you cannot use them to block anything that is played.

cards that are kill conditions that are not effected by playing pox -the rack, cursed scroll, underworld dreams, magrim, , phyrexian totem, chimeric idol, (i have tried all of them over the years) are too slow. they are way too slow.

i really like zombie infestation, because i use Ensnaring bridge, and in late games it is easier to dump useless cards to the infestation. but Liliana will solve this problem.

also, in this same post i talk about ensnaring bridge, and dark depths combo, i use right of consumption.

[bowvamp]

I think that your analysis of Pox is incorrect. You yourself admit that the attrition style of play is what is necessary, yet you remark on how casting pox can hurt you if you jump in with a finisher in the early game as if that's what you're supposed to do. Tombstalker and Nihilith aren't meant to survive pox. They're meant to come down after a pox and kill the opponent. Necroplasm is noticeably absent from the list of kill-cons you have tried. It adds a little bit of inevitability, and it does 9 damage over four turns as opposed to 8 (or 6 if your opponent is above 10 life) with bloodghast.

Rukcus, if you want another Urborg, why not just cut a swamp first.

I'm going to test the following changes:
-3 IoK
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Cry of Contrition

This spread will help get rid of Jace. I know, 1 ofs, I'm just testing them out in the same list so I can get a feel for them.

[Qweerios]

I play "Pox" without Pox too. I think the 1/3 Life and 1/3 Hand shrink shuts down too many options for this deck and simply isn't worth it. Smallpox is by far superior because its multiple disruptions come down a turn quicker and everything is limited to 1 and can be played around quite easely when prepared for it. In my testing of Lilliana I found that:

-Nyxathid complemented Tombstalker really well when going "Discard Pox";
-Playing either Crucible of Worlds or LotL is essential to Pox's success;
-Phyrexian Arena is very potent once Pox is dismissed (even more than Bob);
-Splashing White or Green for Vindicate/Ghostly Prison or Tarmogoyf/LotL/Living Wish doesn't strain the manabase much;
-Mox Diamond and/or Chalice are viable options;

Now the deck might resemble Loam or Hex/Depths more but I think it is a step in the right direction because those decks can abuse the drawbacks of various disruption while Pox only whistands them. The next step for Pox is to evolve into Smallpox. It may "sound" silly but it is only its counterintuitive nature. Pox is ultimately a control deck and Smallpox is by far the most controlling card.

P.S.: Lilliana is a bomb, play 4 without hesitation.

[bowvamp]

@Qweerios: I would agree with you on the land recursion, but disagree with you on Pox being useless. I think that you're only evaluating the cards in terms of losses on your side of the board. Pox has a much higher chance to gain card advantage than smallpox when I play it. If my opponent is up to four mana (oh crap, this may not be immediately recognizable to most, but this could be the beginning of the end for Pox) a single pox sets them back two lands. If I've got liliana down, I can make my opponent round up, then liliana them.

Smallpox destroys less resources = the less controlling card.
Splashes get harder when you try to add manlands and wastelands to them.
Zoo is handled better than Burn, Goblins, or Merfolk to name a few.

Sure pox hurts a lot for both players, but how else would you be confident in your finishers?

[unicoerner]

Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
4 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
9 [SOM] Swamp (3)

// Creatures
2 [MM] Nether Spirit
1 [ON] Undead Gladiator

// Spells
4 [TSP] Smallpox
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [5E] Dark Ritual
4 [U] Sinkhole
4 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
4 [INN] Liliana of the Veil
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
2 [OD] Innocent Blood

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [OD] Innocent Blood
SB: 4 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 [4E] The Rack

The 2 Innocent Bloods and Undead Gladiator were Poxes, but i found them to be the 3 worst cards in the deck. Do you have other suggestions?

Vs decks heavy on creatures i board out all my creas + 2 cards and go 3 Bridge+2 Rack.

I, too, think that Burn and Zoo could be hard to beat, so for Zoo i have 4 Bombs + 2 Bloods (4). Not sure what to do against Burn if it even matters.

[Koby]

@Qweerios: I would agree with you on the land recursion, but disagree with you on Pox being useless. I think that you're only evaluating the cards in terms of losses on your side of the board. Pox has a much higher chance to gain card advantage than smallpox when I play it. If my opponent is up to four mana (oh crap, this may not be immediately recognizable to most, but this could be the beginning of the end for Pox) a single pox sets them back two lands. If I've got liliana down, I can make my opponent round up, then liliana them.

Smallpox destroys less resources = the less controlling card.
Splashes get harder when you try to add manlands and wastelands to them.
Zoo is handled better than Burn, Goblins, or Merfolk to name a few.

Sure pox hurts a lot for both players, but how else would you be confident in your finishers?

LOL Pox Magic Numbers!

19, 16, 13, 10, 7, 4, and 2.
These deplete the greatest amount of resources per Pox, based on rounding.

[bowvamp]

Ok, now it seems that I'm testing IoK against Thoughtseize.
-1 Cry of Contrition
+1 IoK

The other idea I'm trying as far as Dark Ritual decks go is a MBC deck with the idea of going for Volrath's Dungeon and Dark Confidant. OFC this is a different deck than traditional Pox (doesn't even have a card with pox in its name), but if I find anything I will try and apply it to pox.

[Smea.gol.lum]

Here's the list I'll probably play once Innistrad is legal:

Beaters:
3 Tombstalker
3 Nether Spirit

Attrition:
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Culling Scales
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smallpox
2 Innocent Blood
2 Dismember

Mana:
3 Dark Ritual
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
6 Swamps

SB:
3 Pithing Needle (primary target is Jace)
3 Ratchet Bomb (catch-all)
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Nihilith Spellbomb
2 Extirpate
3 Open slots

I'm not sure about my sideboard yet, other debatable slots are the 2/2 split of Innocent Blood and Dismember and the 1/1 split of Thoughtseize and IoK.
I'm still searching an 11th and 12th win-con, let's hope that Innistrad provides another bomb like Liliana :P

[catmint]

How about running 3 entomb to abuse liliana as good as possible.
With Vengeful Pharao Squee, Goblin Nabob and Nether Spirit?

[bowvamp]

Add an "s" to the end of your card tags like so: Vengeful Pharaoh Squee, Goblin Nabob and Nether Spirit.

As far as your suggestion goes, sure try it out. The people on the concurrent discussion of pox on a forum which shall not be named seem to like it. Then again, I think it's bull.

@Smea.gol.lum:
SDT doesn't work very well in Pox. The fetches don't dodge Pox if that's what you're thinking. They pretty much just constrain your mana base, make stifle effective, and damage you. Dismember is Disfigure -4 life in most cases. If you want to be able to kill more than with Dismember, you could run Vendetta or increase consistency with a full set of Innocent Blood. Culling Scales could hurt you more than your opponent. How about Withering Wisps? Since you don't really care about going over 4 mana, it seems like an OK option. Consider Volrath's Dungeon I think this might be good in Poxless. Dark Ritual loses a lot of usefulness as a 3-of.

I've also been considering MD or SB'ing the following cards:

//to handle creatures
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Maze of Ith
Ice Floe

[jin]

Sinkhole is the biggest trap ever. Very cute to play with beta sinkholes, but sadly not good enough.

Agreed. Too many lands to play around sinkholes.. also sinkhole is terrible when they are just waiting to not fetch out.. I feel that contamination is just so much better..


How often is your opponent going to find and resolve Jace against a deck like this? That seems unlikely.

very often... 2 fetchlands and some colourless mana usually is what does it.. when you play pox effects, you lose cards yourself.. it's inherent card disadvantage... if you play those cards aggressively, you'll naturally have less threats to deal with them .. so you have to either discard them.. or rid them of lands.. either way jace is going to eventually drop either off a top deck.. or naturally through holding fetchlands..


decks like zoo, are just impossible. to be effective you need to cast two pox, which puts you at 8, and in an very vulnerable state in which your a creature swing, and two burn spells away from losing, and with zoo, all that is very easy. 8 pox, 4 edict spells, and maybe 4 more, that is 16 spells against creatures, and only 4 of which can get multiple creatures. this is where ratchet bomb comes in handy, because the best zoo decks are one drop decks, and you can tag multiple creatures, IDK i just like damnation better there. Ratchet bomb is awesome, and the best destruction card for mono colored decks, but again, on turn 2 and above, you can wipe the board of creatures, on turn one, you can start the ratchet bomb, but it needs multiple turns to go off, and by then zoo can deal 12 damage without trying.


Against Zoo, I usually board out Pox and board in sweepers like Perish and 1-2 consuming vapors.. it's not so bad... but it's still not great....


SDT doesn't work very well in Pox

I disagree. You are in topdeck mode a lot of the time and if you don't have SDT, then you'll likely lose due to your opponents' being able to manipulate the top of their library better than you. I'm tempted to go to 3 SDT as well since they seem so important during the aftermath of bigPox/smallPox..

[Smea.gol.lum]

@Smea.gol.lum:
SDT doesn't work very well in Pox. The fetches don't dodge Pox if that's what you're thinking. They pretty much just constrain your mana base, make stifle effective, and damage you. Dismember is Disfigure -4 life in most cases. If you want to be able to kill more than with Dismember, you could run Vendetta or increase consistency with a full set of Innocent Blood. Culling Scales could hurt you more than your opponent. How about Withering Wisps? Since you don't really care about going over 4 mana, it seems like an OK option. Consider Volrath's Dungeon I think this might be good in Poxless. Dark Ritual loses a lot of usefulness as a 3-of.


SDT is one of the most important cards in Pox in my opinion as it adds a lot of consistency to the deck.
It helps to find the right cards in the right moments, is very important in topdeck-mode and provides a nice soft-lock in conjunction with Culling Scales (which can't hurt me at all cause there aren't any 1- or 2-drops in my list).
Fetchlands are not there to dodge Pox, they let you look at fresh new top3 cards with SDT and power out Tombstalker earlier.
The reason for my 2/2 split of Dismember and Innocent Blood was the ability to remove creatures at instant speed which is good against Aether Vial and frees up the mana in your own turn as well as kills the creature that you really want to rather than making an opponent sacrifice a random creature.
However, I may very well go back to 4 Innocent Blood, as life loss could be a too big issue.
I included Dark Ritual as a 3-of because I had the feeling that there were more situations in which I drew it in the middle-/late-game and didn't need it than those in which I would have liked it in my opening hand.
I also don't want to cut it at all due to the possibility of T1 Liliana, which is just brutal.
Volrath's Dungeon is too expensive and does too little.
Withering Wisps is a nice card, but there are too many nonbasic lands(Factory, Wasteland) to be able to support it reliably.

[Smea.gol.lum]

@Smea.gol.lum:
SDT doesn't work very well in Pox. The fetches don't dodge Pox if that's what you're thinking. They pretty much just constrain your mana base, make stifle effective, and damage you. Dismember is Disfigure -4 life in most cases. If you want to be able to kill more than with Dismember, you could run Vendetta or increase consistency with a full set of Innocent Blood. Culling Scales could hurt you more than your opponent. How about Withering Wisps? Since you don't really care about going over 4 mana, it seems like an OK option. Consider Volrath's Dungeon I think this might be good in Poxless. Dark Ritual loses a lot of usefulness as a 3-of.


SDT is one of the most important cards in Pox in my opinion as it adds a lot of consistency to the deck.
It helps to find the right cards in the right moments, is very important in topdeck-mode and provides a nice soft-lock in conjunction with Culling Scales (which can't hurt me at all cause there aren't any 1- or 2-drops in my list).
Fetchlands are not there to dodge Pox, they let you look at fresh new top3 cards with SDT and power out Tombstalker earlier.
The reason for my 2/2 split of Dismember and Innocent Blood was the ability to remove creatures at instant speed which is good against Aether Vial and frees up the mana in your own turn as well as kills the creature that you really want to rather than making an opponent sacrifice a random creature.
However, I may very well go back to 4 Innocent Blood, as life loss could be a too big issue.
I included Dark Ritual as a 3-of because I had the feeling that there were more situations in which I drew it in the middle-/late-game and didn't need it than those in which I would have liked it in my opening hand.
I also don't want to cut it at all due to the possibility of T1 Liliana, which is just brutal.
Volrath's Dungeon is too expensive and does too little.
Withering Wisps is a nice card, but there are too many nonbasic lands(Factory, Wasteland) to be able to support it reliably.

[bowvamp]

OK guys. Play SDT. Tell me how you feel having 1 less mana for "card quality" in a deck with no synergy with SDT. You'll be keeping yourself and your opponent at 3 mana or less the majority of the game. Sinkhole helps with this, and if they aren't cracking fetches just to dodge Sinkhole, it's at least partially doing its job. Volrath's Dungeon is basically what Plow Under was in standard. Your opponent had better pay those 5 life (which is equivalent to 1 swing of stalker) or he's screwed. Urborg allows you to cope better with Wisps and other black heavy cards. In fact, wisps only requires Smallpox's amount of black mana. Jace has been "solved" by Factories for a while in my experience. Just two swings to kill it means they only gain 2 CA. It also means that your poxes are more effective. Obviously you don't play pox if there's no tempo or card advantage to be gained. But situations like that are called "you're winning".

[Richard Cheese]

The more I think about the better Pox gets. NO RUG and Stoneblade seem ill-equipped to handle all of the disruption that this deck has at it's disposal. Both rely on specific spells resolving and sticking and are ill equipped to attrition you out when you are able to keep up the pressure with Liliana. Liliana is insane because no one is playing Spell Pierce. Yeah, they can Force her but FoW is pretty bad against any deck that packs Hymn to Tourach. I'm officially excited. Pox looks like it can be a really player in the post-Innistrad metagame. It doesn't hurt that I'm in love with mono-black either. :)

I agree. I've been testing the list I posted a few pages back (with a few changes, swapped Rack for Crucible, added some Factories), and it's looking very promising. It has enough disruption to not roll to combo, esp. with Misstep, and creature-based decks are generally an easy win. It's probably Tier II at best, but it can definitely hold it's own in the field.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

i do not want to come off rude or insulting, so please do not take this that way - but a few of you sound like you know about Magic the gathering, but not playing a Pox deck.

i rarely have only 3 mana, in fact, on more than the slight occasion i find myself upset, that i do not run corrupt in the stupid deck. it is not like your playing a Pox every few turns. there are only 4 in a deck, and Smallpox is worthless. Smallpox is a slower Edict spell. i do not care about letting my opponent pick a card from his hand, and i certainly do not care about my opponent choose their least valuable land in mid game.

people, Pox will take you to mid game, always. it is also a less effective form of control than blue. simply because Wizard's of the Coast hates Black. it is a fact. you are never going to win quickly, and Pox that is not splashed with a color will always get overrun.

most decks that run creatures as the win condition, run about 20. with Pox, if you run 4 edict spells, 4 pox, 4 Smallpox that is only 12 creature removal. they have 8 more creatures left. decks where Progentitus is the win condition, will almost always have a way to get around choose and sacrifice spells, the answer is a second creature. this is not out of the question, they run up to 11, and unless they are complete idiots, should be able to work around you.
Hand disruption, 4 Duress, 4 Hymn, 4 Pox, 4 Smallpox. that is 12, which is a decent hand disruption count, wish it could be 20, but IOK, Therapy, and thought seize, would leave you vulnerable. you cannot have too many things, of one thing. we now have 20 card slots taken up.
you need a win condition, and because Pox is slower than most decks you need at least 8 slots devoted to a win of some sorts. Personally i like the Leyline combo right now.
here is why.
Zoo, NO RUG, Reanimate, Dredge, all rely either heavily or just somewhat in being able to use their graveyard. my favorite card in Magic is an opponents 0/1 Tarmogoyf, it is what someone gets for being so pompous. but any who, for me, that is 8 cards in my slot, 12 to go. i run 4 Vampire Hexmage for Planeswalkers. 3 Ensnaring Bridge because it stops every creature deck and almost every deck runs creatures. i have 5 slots left, 1 SDT, 2 Reanimate, 4 Dark Ritual. i run 18 swamps.

4 pox
4 Damnation
4 Geth's verdict
4 Dark rituals
4 Duress
4 hymn to Tourach
4 Vampire hexmage
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Reanimate
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of the Void
4 helm of Obedience
18 Swamp

I do not mess around with Mana with this deck, it is mostly useless. i used to use manlands, but i really do not find they do any real significant damage to my opponent.
my sideboard varies.
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Dark Depths
are the only staples that never change per metagame. the Depths is basically, because i have half the combo main boarded, and against decks that are not creature heavy, i just board out Ensnaring Bridges.

i used to be high on Zombie Infestation, i like the idea of being able to produce random 2/2s but it is unfortunately slow. even too slow for this deck.

the reason i use one SDT is for two reasons, A: i only own one. and B: even if i owned a play set, the thought of me ever drawing a second one would infuriate me. so i just leave it to a simple one of.

SDT is probably the best card printed for a Pox deck since, Duress. when a Pox deck enters top deck mode, it is awful.

SDT takes you out of top deck phase. and gives you a card advantage. it cost one to activate, usually on their turn. And when The mind Sculptor hits the board, it is less of an advantage to them, because you have more options then.

Off topic, how can blue control have Jace, The Mind Sculptor, but i cannot have Yawgmoth's Will?

i post different variations of Pox, this one is closest to the actual deck i run.

of course it may or may not change next month when Liliana comes out. still not concerned with how i feel about her. i do know if i spend 140 on her, and she doesnt work out, i will be righteously upset.

[Ozymandias]

What the pros don't realize is that 18 lands is all you need if you mana weave.

[jin]

...

There are some points that you bring up that I agree with and some that I don't. I do agree with you in regards to Sensei's Divining Top, so much so that I would definitely play 2 of. I feel that 1 of makes it too hard to find and when I need it I can't get it. I think 2 is definitely the correct number, even going up to 3 if I have more suffle effects. I think you just NEED it post pox when everything is empty and all you have left to play with is the top of your library.

I disagree with what you said about creature removal, because often bigPox removes more than 1 creature whether it is in play or in their hand. Also, your Hymn to Tourachs often catches a creature or two, so I think the amount of creature removal in the form of Innocent Blood + smallPox + bigBox. I STRONGLY disagree with your hand disruption build as hand disruption is generally a terrible topdeck once your Pox and Hymn to Tourachs have done their earlier job. I think the maximum hand disruption you should ever run alongside bigPox and smallPox is probably 8 (something and 4 hymns).

I have seen the Leyline + Helm combo before, but I find that it was way too difficult to actually find. Especially in your build where you only play with 1 Sensei's Divining Top and 0 Tutors, not to mention those cards alone are generally terrible. Basically as a win-con, they don't have much synergy with the rest of the deck.

I think a better wincon is Contamination and Bitterblossom/Nether Spirit/Crucibles + Mishra's factory because cutting off their mana source is awesome, and those cards on their own aren't terrible. You have a big weakness to black making your 4 Contaminations rather dead, but that's the same as 4 dead Helm of Obediences...

[bowvamp]

What the pros don't realize is that SDT is actually the best removal spell of the game and isn't card disadvantage in pox. /sarcasmz

Ok, anyways, let's do the math here:
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Liliana
4 Turn 1 Hand Disruption
4 Hymn to Tourach
All of the above hit creatures (unless you're talking about duress). I think that your problem is that YOU haven't actually played much legacy or pox iamfrightenedtoo. Sinkhole/Wasteland/Crucible/Pox/Smallpox keep the opponent low on mana so you can win (if you run sinkhole/wasteland). Pox, Wasteland and Smallpox tend to keep you low on mana too. Opponents don't start the game with every creature in their deck in their hand.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

Ok, anyways, let's do the math here:
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Liliana
4 Turn 1 Hand Disruption
4 Hymn to Tourach
All of the above hit creatures (unless you're talking about duress). I think that your problem is that YOU haven't actually played much legacy or pox iamfrightenedtoo. Sinkhole/Wasteland/Crucible/Pox/Smallpox keep the opponent low on mana so you can win (if you run sinkhole/wasteland). Pox, Wasteland and Smallpox tend to keep you low on mana too. Opponents don't start the game with every creature in their deck in their hand.

Sinkhole, wasteland, Crucible, Pox, Smallpox, you stated before you would Run 4 Liliana, 4 IOK/thought seize(turn one hand distruption, 4 Hymn to Tourach
that is 28 slots. with 12 to 12 1/2 to go. i assume you run another Edict spell of some kind, either geth's verdict( my persona favorite) Innocent blood, or Diabolic Edict. but you run Wasteland, and that takes away from black mana (which the deck only runs black mana) so that takes away slots too.
what are you using to win? 8 creatures? so your hoping that after all the removal you still have creatures and they do not?

i need to find a search card that fits in this deck. i just hate all the cards that are Legacy legal. i like Desperate Research. it is not as bad as people would like to make it. you only get access to 7 cards, and must RFG the ones you did not name. but this deck does not rely too much on graveyard, (my build) crucible players and there mana base would disagree. but when you need your win condition you no longer need your graveyard, unless your graveyard is apart of the win condition.

Pox is not a win condition, it is the control. sure it does the most damage, and that is what i used to use it for, but the control is what we are looking for.
aggro pox players rely on the damage.
i have gone the Aggro Pox route, it doesnt do well.

[bowvamp]

You can look at my list if you want to know about my card choices iamfrightenedtoo. For the record, I've made a couple changes by now.

1 Necroplasm
1 Nihilith
3 Tombstalker
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Mental Misstep
4 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Mishra's Factory
11 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
//I use Liliana Vess as my substitute in Cockatrice
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
1 Marsh Flats

The main advantage of this list vs. the previous one is the single Marsh Flats. This allows me to gain virtual card advantage with a Crucible in play. I've also refined my discard section, as I found (unsurprisingly) Thoughtseize was the best discard in the current meta. Note the lack of dedicated creature kill. I don't mind taking a ton of damage because of the way Pox works. Yes, I do depend on only 8 creatures as my win-cons. Is this weird? I think it's pretty common even with tempo decks (which arguably will have a harder time supporting their creatures than Pox). Also notice that unless there's gy hate or StP that's directed towards it, Necroplasm is very easily recurred.

[Koby]

Necroplasm was pretty sweet against Threshold, and isn't too bad at killing Germ tokens, then Merfolk 2 drops. :D I wouldn't run more than 1 however, it's an awful creature at killing.

Why don't you run Inquisition instead of Thoughtseize? I have never wanted to take a creature instead of a spell/artifact. Smallpox, Pox, Lilliana, Mishra's Factory, and Innocent Blood cover those pretty well. IoK also usually takes the smaller creatures too. It's inferior to Duress for this deck, but balances out with taking creatures that makes it really good.

I like the SDT idea, I'll try out a list with 2 added. Contamination is another good idea, I would incorporate it with Bitterblossom and Bloodghast.

[jin]

Necroplasm was pretty sweet against Threshold, and isn't too bad at killing Germ tokens, then Merfolk 2 drops. :D I wouldn't run more than 1 however, it's an awful creature at killing.

Why don't you run Inquisition instead of Thoughtseize? I have never wanted to take a creature instead of a spell/artifact. Smallpox, Pox, Lilliana, Mishra's Factory, and Innocent Blood cover those pretty well. IoK also usually takes the smaller creatures too. It's inferior to Duress for this deck, but balances out with taking creatures that makes it really good.

I like the SDT idea, I'll try out a list with 2 added. Contamination is another good idea, I would incorporate it with Bitterblossom and Bloodghast.

Actually, I've played Necroplasm. He's really sweet on paper, but in practice, he rarely does any good as your opponent will surely remove him before he activates end of turn to blow up their critters.

Yeah, the list I run plays 4x contaminations, 4x bitterblossom (best card to go with contamination as swords to plowshare doesn't screw you over, 2x entomb, 1x nether spirit.. but bloodghast just seems better.. I've been itching to try it, but the deck is pretty tight, so I can't really play 4 bloodghasts.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

Bloodghast was an expensive play test, a play test that failed.
it gets STP'd or Path to Exiled. it rarely does anything, it gets blocked by creatures with bigger toughness than its power, and you cannot block with it.
it is useless.

Necroplasm does the same thing, they make me go fetch a swamp from a PTE, the counterbalance to Tarmogoyf, although is cost one more, and gets killed easier. not to mention it has to be out for three turns before you can get a two casting cost creature.
i do like the dredge ability, but i do not run Crucible pox.

[jin]

Bloodghast was an expensive play test, a play test that failed.
it gets STP'd or Path to Exiled. it rarely does anything, it gets blocked by creatures with bigger toughness than its power, and you cannot block with it.
it is useless.

Necroplasm does the same thing, they make me go fetch a swamp from a PTE, the counterbalance to Tarmogoyf, although is cost one more, and gets killed easier. not to mention it has to be out for three turns before you can get a two casting cost creature.
i do like the dredge ability, but i do not run Crucible pox.

Yeah, that's why I didn't test it, because it was expensive... yeah my nether spirit eats plows all day long... that's why I play entomb to bring him in when my contamination is already online.

counterbalance to tarmogoyf? what are you talking about?

[bowvamp]

Necroplasm IS NOT just theoretical. He's also not just creature removal. If he hits every time he swings, it's 3 mana for 9 damage. If he can't hit cause they have a blocker up or something, at least he wipes the board and grows to be 4/4. Contamination honestly blows. Hard. It's horrible card disadvantage, and it only works against lands. That means that hierarch & bop negate it. If they've got stuff down already it doesn't work. Basically, the definition of win-more.

People have to realize that Pox is not very gy dependent. All of my cards still work w/o my gy after sb (and most of the time, if my opponent hasn't complained aboyt "gy decks" or asked me what "my plan is after gy hate comes in", I just leave in crucibles).

Also, I have no idea what you said, iamfrightenedtoo.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

Yeah, that's why I didn't test it, because it was expensive... yeah my nether spirit eats plows all day long... that's why I play entomb to bring him in when my contamination is already online.

counterbalance to tarmogoyf? what are you talking about?

how does Nether Spirit get around an STP or Path to exile? or were you talking about Nether Spirit gets hit by STP all day long.

and counterbalance to Tarmogoyf means. Tarmogoyf is pretty overpowered, a lot of monoblack players use NEcroplasm to balance out the power of zoo, or decks that rely on Tarmogoyf.

[bowvamp]

Decks that rely almost solely on Tarmogoyf get owned by pox pretty hard. 'cuz they're Threshold variants. Zoo's reach can be troublesome, but their creatures don't come down fast enough to be as big of a deal as vial goblins. I know it's still a bad matchup, but stop acting like it's the worst one. I still don't see how counterbalance fits in...:~o

[iamfrightenedtoo]

Decks that rely almost solely on Tarmogoyf get owned by pox pretty hard. 'cuz they're Threshold variants. Zoo's reach can be troublesome, but their creatures don't come down fast enough to be as big of a deal as vial goblins. I know it's still a bad matchup, but stop acting like it's the worst one. I still don't see how counterbalance fits in...:~o

i apologize for using the word counterbalance. i do not mean the card, i mean the word.
Necroplasm, is a counterbalance to Tarmogoyf. because Tarmogoyf is a huge problem, Necroplasm is a decent card to play against it.

and zoo is plenty fast. it is actually really fast.
assume they can play a creature every turn, or assume they can play a creature with each mana they can produce. this is not hard to assume, it happens more than it doesnt.

turn one is one creature, turn two is two to three creatures on the board. turn three they can have up to six, and each of the new zoo creatures are 2-3 power. at max they deal 18 damage on their 4th turn, while already dealing up to 6-9 damage. on turn 3.

this obviously is their best case scenario. you can also assume while playing pox, your going to have a small pox, pox, Edict spell (not you Bowvamp, you dont play edict spells) but a pox or small pox is good enough for this. at most even with a either pox, and an edict spell, you still do not clear their board, and you make it so your life total is easier to overcome you.

zoo is fast.
lucky for us though, not many people run zoo anymore, the meta game is dominated by RUG and NO RUG variants.
Progentitus decks are easy to deal with. their counterspells are annoying, but their creatures are easy enough to deal with. if you run ensnaring bridge, if not, they can be bothersome.

JAce though, i cannot stress enough, if a Jace hits the board, a mono black pox player cannot deal with it.
which is why i run Vampire Hexmage.

[badkyot]

I saw something similar to this a few pages back and I'm going to put this together for some fun. Definitely pox, but hopefully will run like a black sligh instead of heavy control. ~$75 to boot.

4 Cabal Pit
4 Death's Shadow
4 Dark Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Pox
4 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
4 Snuff Out
4 Street Wraith
4 The Rack

15 Swamp
1 Tomb of Urami

4 Faerie Macabre
3 ?
4 Massacre
4 Vampire Hexmage

It's tempting to drop 500 dollars and commit to this gimmick in what is already a pet deck destined to be mediocre, but I'm going to start budget and see how it goes.

Obviously:
Dismember
Thoughtseize
Tombstalker
Mox Diamond
Fetch and shock lands for ridiculous splash/thinning such as Pernicious Deed or Vindicate

Maybe but Unlikely:
Draw 4s
Infernal Tutor
Bloodghast
Dark Depths
Grim Discovery
Lurking Enchantments
Geth's Verdict
Wasteland
Pain lands for budget splash such as Krosan Grip, Blightning, or Lim-Dûl's Vault

Never:
Dark Confidant
Necroplasm
Crucible of Worlds
Bitterblossom - did not work out so well in testing

Suggestions?

[jin]

Necroplasm IS NOT just theoretical. He's also not just creature removal. If he hits every time he swings, it's 3 mana for 9 damage. If he can't hit cause they have a blocker up or something, at least he wipes the board and grows to be 4/4. Contamination honestly blows. Hard. It's horrible card disadvantage, and it only works against lands. That means that hierarch & bop negate it. If they've got stuff down already it doesn't work. Basically, the definition of win-more.

have you even played necroplasm before? he begins as a 1/1 and the turn it can swing, it is a 2/2.. everything can block and kill a 2/2 in today's format... next turn, he's a 3/3 if he lived through the other turn, but 3/3 is dreadfully tiny for 3 mana and by that time, they arleady have somewhat of a fatty on the table.. this is turn 5, and you only have a 3/3.. think about that... turn 6, he's finally a 4/4, and you might decide he can swing and live to tell about it.. but then he dies end of turn and then you have to dredge him to bring him back to kill a 1cmc drop that would have dropped after turn 4, or a 2 drop after turn 5, so you see.. it's not that fast or great after all..

contamination has some weaknesses against elves, but that's why you play creature removal. it's significantly superior to sinkhole.

LOL, win-more is not defined by a card that doesn't win you the game.. because there are plenty of cards that does that. contamination is a lock piece like bloodmoon, choke or back to basics except it affects all lands. It's mana denial and compared with sinkhole, it is superior.


how does Nether Spirit get around an STP or Path to exile? or were you talking about Nether Spirit gets hit by STP all day long.



Contamination.. end of turn entomb. or untap upkeep entomb.. feed contamination.. they cannot make W

[badkyot]

I think if I had the good fortune of owning entombs I would just play reanimator.

[Grollub]

How has the Missteps been working out for you Bowvamp?

[jin]

I think if I had the good fortune of owning entombs I would just play reanimator.

No, it's true.. although you need Underground Sea and FOW as well..


How has the Missteps been working out for you Bowvamp?

Not an option now.

[bowvamp]

Man I'm sad to see misstep go. I guess this might mean a resurgence of swarm based creature decks. If this happens I may or may not continue developing the deck (depending on how well Liliana fights these decks). Luckily, Jace TMS will probably be less of an issue now.

-4 Thoughtseize
+4 Inquisition of Kozilek
-2 Mental Misstep
+2 Disfigure

I'll see if it's more combo or aggro soon enough I guess.

[Koby]

Man I'm sad to see misstep go. I guess this might mean a resurgence of swarm based creature decks. If this happens I may or may not continue developing the deck (depending on how well Liliana fights these decks). Luckily, Jace TMS will probably be less of an issue now.

-4 Thoughtseize
+4 Inquisition of Kozilek
-2 Mental Misstep
+2 Disfigure

I'll see if it's more combo or aggro soon enough I guess.

Swarm based strategies can be answered with Necroplasm (not so hot vs creature removal), Powder Keg, and Ratchet Bomb. I'll be rocking the Bombs for now, until my testing reveals that I need stronger sweepers.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

I knew this was coming. Wizards of the Coast has a favorite child. its name is Zoo, coming in just a hair behind zoo is blue control splashed with any color.

Mental Misstep made mono colored decks be able to keep up, actually Misstep made every deck keep up.

it is a shame its gone.

WOTC isnt even being bashful about their prejudice against mono colored decks anymore.

[clavio]

I don't know, I'm pretty excited about it being banned wrt pox. Thoughtseize/duress/inquisition are very important cards for the deck so I pretty much shelved it once mm hit the fan. Also the rack, a card that seems to be always underrated that is very solid against zoo. Not sure if it's enough to get me back to developing pox (stifling fetchlands seems super good w/mm gone), but I certainly might.

[jin]

I knew this was coming. Wizards of the Coast has a favorite child. its name is Zoo, coming in just a hair behind zoo is blue control splashed with any color.

Mental Misstep made mono colored decks be able to keep up, actually Misstep made every deck keep up.

it is a shame its gone.

WOTC isnt even being bashful about their prejudice against mono colored decks anymore.

Sorry, I don't understand your entire post. Zoo has not really gained in power since Knight of the Reliquary. I think if anything, Wizard of the Coast's favourite child is blue. Zoo actually adds diversity to the metagame because it is the only dedicated aggro deck.

Mental Misstep also didn't really help mono colour decks at all. If you noticed, there has been no mono colour decks after misstep came about. Even Merfolk (the once most popular mono coloured BLUE deck) had been dwindling in numbers.


I don't know, I'm pretty excited about it being banned wrt pox. Thoughtseize/duress/inquisition are very important cards for the deck so I pretty much shelved it once mm hit the fan. Also the rack, a card that seems to be always underrated that is very solid against zoo. Not sure if it's enough to get me back to developing pox (stifling fetchlands seems super good w/mm gone), but I certainly might.

Agreed, Misstep slowing down the format made it somewhat boring.


Swarm based strategies can be answered with Necroplasm (not so hot vs creature removal), Powder Keg, and Ratchet Bomb. I'll be rocking the Bombs for now, until my testing reveals that I need stronger sweepers.

I'm thinking Damnation is just better, if you want a more control feel.

[jin]

Just thought of something and felt like it deserved a new post. What do you guys think about Buried Ooze combo from ken adams in the Pox shell? Could this be our oops, I won factor?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=39296

[Richard Cheese]

Just thought of something and felt like it deserved a new post. What do you guys think about Buried Ooze combo from ken adams in the Pox shell? Could this be our oops, I won factor?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=39296

You would need to run a lot of cards to support it, and even then it would be way less reliable than that list.

I'm actually pretty sad to see Misstep go, not for the format, but for this deck specifically. It was working really well in the list I was testing. Currently I'm trying Moxes to see if a bit of extra early speed helps to make up for the lack of control, but I may just go with some combination of Geth's Verdict and Thoughtseize or IoK.

Also what swarm-based strategies are people referring to? Goblins? Black Sun's Zenith and E. Plague are both pretty good against the green guys, although I don't really expect it to make that much of a comeback.

[bowvamp]

Agreed with Richard Cheese. What is everyone's thought on Tribute to Hunger? It's just like edict, except with the added life gain. I think it's perfect for Merfolk/Zoo, but is pretty bad vs. Goblins.
Why does the extra mana not matter vs. Merfolk, Zoo, or Goblins? Because it's probably going to be your last resort (besides Pox). It could just give you that needed extra turn. I don't know if this theory is watertight, but it's cool to say the least. As for the new Disfigure-style enchant creature, well it's sorcery speed. So no good.

[jin]

You would need to run a lot of cards to support it, and even then it would be way less reliable than that list.



Maybe 4 buried alive and the 3 creatures from what I see.. Reanimate would help but doesn't seem necessary.

[bowvamp]

lol Reanimate is most definitely necessary. How else do you get your ooze to play? Remember, this is a 2 card combo (requires set up). It's 11 win-con cards, and no real synergy w/ pox.

[jin]

lol Reanimate is most definitely necessary. How else do you get your ooze to play? Remember, this is a 2 card combo (requires set up). It's 11 win-con cards, and no real synergy w/ pox.

it's a black creature.

the synergy comes from being able to discard pieces of the combo without buried alive. buried alive can be a tutor we utilize, but I haven't loooked into it.

[bowvamp]

Ok, so you can cast it. It's still a 1-of in your deck, that means that the limiting reactant (to use chem terms) for your reaction (combo) is 1 card out of 60? Are the 3 creatures devourer triskelion ranger? In that case, you still have 11 cards MD devoted to your "oops I win". Not to mention, I hate that phrase as there's no such thing as "oops I win". It's like combo is a color that's splash-able in every deck and will win you games by accident. Also Tribute to Hunger anybody?

[iamfrightenedtoo]

what is the point of running pox with the ooze combo?
this is not logical. i say this now, and a month ago when i started to build the very deck.
the fact is, pox does not slow down your opponent. it makes everything equal.
the ooze combo is instant, when it happens it happens. --instant in this case, is not the type of spell. there is no reason to speed up your potential death with pox.

pox is not a control card. it is a means of dealing a substantial amount of damage, while disrupting. ive never gotten rid of more than two lands and creatures with a pox, and they get to choose them. pox is a life loss card. the land creatures and land are a red herring.

the win condition doesn't need to be an infinite combo. it does not make sense.

[jin]

Ok, so you can cast it. It's still a 1-of in your deck, that means that the limiting reactant (to use chem terms) for your reaction (combo) is 1 card out of 60? Are the 3 creatures devourer triskelion ranger? In that case, you still have 11 cards MD devoted to your "oops I win". Not to mention, I hate that phrase as there's no such thing as "oops I win". It's like combo is a color that's splash-able in every deck and will win you games by accident. Also Tribute to Hunger anybody?

If I have all of the answers, I wouldn't be discussing it with you. I would have taken it to SCG already. The fact of the matter is, it is a relevant and viable combo in this deck.

It doesn't matter if you don't like it. Whether you like it or hate it doesn't change the fact that it is what it is - a splashable combo in this deck (much like painter's grindstone in The Mighty Quinn). If you have any grasp of other decks, you would know this to be true. Vampire Hexmage and Dark Depths is another example. The fact is, Ooze-combo has some noticeable synergies with the deck being able to take advantage of discarding. It makes the Pox effects asymmetrical.


what is the point of running pox with the ooze combo?
this is not logical. i say this now, and a month ago when i started to build the very deck.
the fact is, pox does not slow down your opponent. it makes everything equal.
the ooze combo is instant, when it happens it happens. --instant in this case, is not the type of spell. there is no reason to speed up your potential death with pox.

pox is not a control card. it is a means of dealing a substantial amount of damage, while disrupting. ive never gotten rid of more than two lands and creatures with a pox, and they get to choose them. pox is a life loss card. the land creatures and land are a red herring.

the win condition doesn't need to be an infinite combo. it does not make sense.

The problem is other decks can take advantage of the life loss better than you. If you are using Pox as a damage dealer, you should splash red and play some Lightning Bolts, because most Pox lists I've seen cannot capitalize on the Pox effect afterwards.

I never said Pox isn't symmetrical. The point of playing the deck is that you know it's coming, so you can make it more favourable for you by playing cards that recur or cards that can be used from the 'yard. Necrotic Ooze and his buddies is the asymmetry I'm talking about.

[bowvamp]

Ok jin. I never called it a splashable combo. There is no such thing. The synergy you speak of is really just a figment of your imagination. A single buried alive does what 3 pox effects that are perfectly timed for "synergy" not disruption do. Basically, the synergy isn't there because the cards aren't useful in your hand, and are only useful when the entire combo is assembled. Painter Grindstone in The Quinn is really not a "splashed combo". The deck uses StP to protect itself which means that typical creature methods aren't synergistic with its spells. A splashed combo like you're talking about is basically only there for "oops I win" factor. If you really want to, just make the deck irl and win a major scg tourney.

@iamfrightenedtoo I doubt you said what I just read (or at least meant to have said). Pox takes 2 lands if your opponent has 4 or more, and previously you were skeptical of my ability to keep opponents to 3 or less.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

im going to touch on a few points here.
splashing red with Pox is something i have been trying for a while it seems to be the perfect fit.
it is not. i dont know why, but it never works out the way it seems it would on paper.

and about pox only getting two lands. i meant that. i said i have only gotten two lands at max. its fun to get that many, but it does leave them with two, with all the draw in the Meta game with blue, it is way to easy for an opponent to get back to where they were.

it would almost be worth it to run underworld dreams. it is expensive to cast for what it does, but so may decks rely on drawing cards. just a thought, not worth it, it has never been,

[lyracian]

The fact of the matter is, it is a relevant and viable combo in this deck. I do not see it being either of these in a Pox deck. Neither of the artifact creatures that you need to give Ooze the powers of help a Pox deck win so they are just dead cards if you draw them. That deck is built around having four black mana to play Buried Alive - Reanimate; remove 20 counters from Triskelion, I win.

If you want to build a 'better' Ooze deck I would go with the standard Blue/Black; support the combo with countermagic and discard so your opponent can not stop it.

[bowvamp]

Underworld Dreams is interesting, but also very slow. At least it's consistent I guess. We don't really have anything to make the opponent draw.

The reason why burn and red, etc might seem good in pox is because of the life loss nature of the card. But look closer. You'll see that pox tends to negate points of damage, and actually works towards BALANCING the life totals. Let's say I do 1 damage to you.
1st Pox 13 - 12
2nd Pox 8 - 8
See what just happened? My damage got removed by pox. Let's see what happens when we cast lightning bolt.
1st Pox 13 - 11 (minus 1 damage already)
2nd Pox 8 - 7 (minus another damage)
3rd Pox 5 - 4
4th Pox 3 - 2
5th Pox 2 - 1
6th Pox 1 - 0
This example disproves the idea of pox being able to negate damage completely, yet also shows that the "relative healing"(tm)(jk jk) effects of Pox actually scale with damage.

For any of you using the Green or White builds, I'd like your input on Riftstone Portal. I have a couple white hatebears and was thinking of making a white splash version of my list.

[Koby]

Sun Droplet is a nice way to break the life loss symmetry of Pox, but is terrible in almost every other application. It's somewhat useful against burn, but not reliable in any fashion.

[bowvamp]

Lol Sun Droplet doesn't add counters for loss of life. I should know, afaik I was an early adopter. It's rarely ever terrible, as the damage prevented is basically 2 damage / turn. It sticks around the whole game for the most part, and also stacks which is nice. It's really hard to describe, but in the right meta it's an automatic 2-of at the very least.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

ugh, sun droplet. i remember seeing the card the moment it came out, fell in love. it was a short, short, almost embarrassing affair.

[Koby]

Lol Sun Droplet doesn't add counters for loss of life. I should know, afaik I was an early adopter. It's rarely ever terrible, as the damage prevented is basically 2 damage / turn. It sticks around the whole game for the most part, and also stacks which is nice. It's really hard to describe, but in the right meta it's an automatic 2-of at the very least.


ugh, sun droplet. i remember seeing the card the moment it came out, fell in love. it was a short, short, almost embarrassing affair.

I'm aware it doesn't interact with Pox directly, but it absorbs damage prior/after Pox then allows you to recoup some life lost. It's a may ability which allows you to ride through Pox, then gain the life back afterwards. It's mediocre against Burn, but it's a unique effect that isn't readily accessible to mono Black.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

the problem with Sun Droplet is not what it does, it is what it does not do.
the life gaining nature of the card is not important. Pox players are never worried about playing pox. If and when they are they switch to control black without Pox.
there are simply more important cards to deal with than Sun droplet. i.e. win conditions.

Pox has a very simple generic formula of core cards that most players play with.
The core only changes every few years.
(first turn discard - whichever the individual player likes, i use Duress), Hymn, Pox, Small pox. the rest of the deck depends on what your going to play.

many players focus on land and hand hate.
i focus on creature hate. (this also changed when the meta game changes.)
I vehemently disagree with using Sink Hole. How much land destruction do you need in a deck? with small pox, pox, and hymn you have 12 spells. those who do not think they need other creature removal because of the same aforementioned cards, should feel the same way with Sink Hole.

Sun Droplet, has no space in any build, because the object is to make them lose life, not make you gain life.

It is like running a damage card in an infect deck, what is the point? or on the same topic, it is like running any infinite damage combo in a pox deck?

with infinite damage you run control so you can have the time you need to find your combo. you do not make it easier for your opponent to kill you by dealing most of the damage to you, yourself.

[badkyot]

It's not that WotC hates black mages, they just develope all our cards straight up high as hell.

http://magiccards.info/fut/en/92.html

Are there more enchantments that have tap to activate effects? Wtf..

[jin]

I was bored, and was fiddling around with a Pernicious Pox build. It's based off of BUGstill. Check it out:

Lands
4x Bayou
6x fetchlands
1x filterland
1x painland
3x Swamp
1x Forest
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland

Planeswalkers (PW)
3x Liliana of the Veil
4x Garruk3, something something..
2x Sorin Markov

Removal
4x Pernicious Deed
4x Innocent Blood
2x Dismember
3x Maelstrom Pulse

Disruption
3x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozelik
4x Hymn to Tourach
1x Smallpox

Draw
2x Life from the Loam

As I was working on it though, I began to move away from BigPox and then from SmallPox and the PW's just stabilized the board way better than the Pox spells. The removal suite is crazy though and the disruption all round is very promising. Garruk3 is pretty destructive since the 2/2 Wolves become a pretty fast clock. Early game will be mostly defensive with Innocent Bloods and Hymn to Tourachs or Thoughtseize/INquisition of Kozelik. Turn 3, Liliana of the Veil comes down and the disruption intensifies. She draws countermagic as well for Garruk3 to come down midgame to seal the deal. Life from the Loam makes Liliana/smallpox asymmetrical and also acts as card advantage. If the game happens to get to late-game (probably vs another control deck), Sorin Markov comes down to finish it. He's just the biggest bomb.

As I played this deck more and more, I realized that there is no situation where I want to cast BigPox. I realized that Pox is really win-more as I never want to cast it when I'm winning and never want to cast it when I'm losing. It doesn't save me on a losing board and it doesn't necessary save me when they still have 1 land. Sensei's Top on my oppponent's side really didn't help me. In the end, I decided on 1x Smallpox as it is both creature removal and hand disruption. Smallpox is just more controllable for this type of deck.

Maybe I'm posting this in the wrong thread, but it really started out as a Pox deck. Who knows....

[bowvamp]

jin, pox is most definitely not win-more. Also, saying it's not good when you're winning or losing just says "pox is bad" not that it's win more. Pox is very powerful because of the card advantage it can get you very easily. It "relatively heals" you, kills their threats, and gets you card advantage. Also, your list sounds a lot closer to theory crafting than something you've tested. For instance, how do you handle the large influx of combo that is expected? BigPox actually just wrecks ANT, and you've only got 14 cards to prevent them from going off turn 2 or 3. Compare that to 4 Smallpox, 4 Pox, 4 Hymn, 4 turn 1 discard, potentially 4 Sinkhole, x wasteland, etc. You'll see that your deck does significantly worse vs. oldschool storm combo lists.

[jin]

jin, pox is most definitely not win-more. Also, saying it's not good when you're winning or losing just says "pox is bad" not that it's win more. Pox is very powerful because of the card advantage it can get you very easily. It "relatively heals" you, kills their threats, and gets you card advantage. Also, your list sounds a lot closer to theory crafting than something you've tested. For instance, how do you handle the large influx of combo that is expected? BigPox actually just wrecks ANT, and you've only got 14 cards to prevent them from going off turn 2 or 3. Compare that to 4 Smallpox, 4 Pox, 4 Hymn, 4 turn 1 discard, potentially 4 Sinkhole, x wasteland, etc. You'll see that your deck does significantly worse vs. oldschool storm combo lists.

You're like a watch dog parking off intruders to the Pox thread. I have seen no relevant contribution by you except negative criticism and your condescending tone is not welcome. I have tested this list against several decks the whole day yesterday against players that are competant with aggro/control/storm combo and I can tell you that this deck is strong against all 3 archtypes in the current metagame.

I myself play The Epic Storm and this Pox deck is just a hobby deck and I can tell you that nothing wrecks Storm combo more than Hymn to Tourach. Duress/Thoughtseize that is all secondary. Let me let you in on a secret. The reason why Hymn is better vs storm combo is because it is idiot proof. It is random and it is impossible for you to "choose" the wrong card. Sinkhole is like a joke to storm combo. And BigPox hurts the Pox player way more than it hurts the storm combo player simply because BigPox doesn't even touch the artifact mana...

Post board, I bring in more disrupt so that I can get my Hymn to Tourach to go off.

Now after defending myself against this fruitless argument, I'm going to tell you how Pernicious Pox beats storm combo: Thoughtseize disruption to get to Hymn to Tourach and then Liliana of the Veil to pressure combo players into winning or getting their entire hand stripped.

How does this deck beat aggro: 6 effecient and effective spot removal (innocent blood/dismmeber), 3 heavy swiss army knives (pulse), 4 board sweepers and a flexible removal spell (small pox)

How this deck beats contro: superior PW with sufficient hand disruption negate any advantage of countermagic.

The only deck I see this deck losing to right now is itself (and maybe charbelcher if I'm on the draw since Im not packing FOW). BigPox isn't Card Advantage at all. Most of the time (since I have wasteelands, hymns and creature removal), BigPox simply kills of one of everything of theirs and one of everything of mine. It's totally symmetrical. I would rather you use it as direct damage like iamfrightenedtoo, but seriously, I'm usually at a highe rlife. So I eat it more than anything.

BigPox is WINMORE because you never want to cast it in my deck. My deck is always in control.. if I'm not in control, BigPox isn't going to help me. Try it.

[Koby]

3x Liliana of the Veil
4x Garruk3, something something..
2x Sorin Markov

Removal
4x Pernicious Deed


This isn't Pox. Your win condition is contingent upon 5 and 6cc planeswalkers? Pernicious Deed? These are far far too slow, and painfully inadequate to deal with Storm Combo.

You are right that Pox can't deal with artifact mana. However, Ratchet Bomb and Powder Keg do so quickly, and effectively. There is no reason to dip into :g: for PDeed when there are enough tools in artifacts that deal with the exact same problems.

Moreover, you're playing high CC planeswalker in lieu of the 4th Liliana which is deck misconstruction.

I agree that Sinkhole is not right for every metagame, but it's definitely better than some of the cards you have in your list. Smallpox is better than Dismember for instance, and the former should be maximized.

[Smea.gol.lum]

I've played Pox(the deck) for a long time now and must say that I wasnt too happy with Pox(the card),
because it wasn't reliable enough so I cut it from my list, that's why I agree with Jin.
Pox was only good enough to punish bad opponents for keeping 1-land hands which nobody should do(in most cases at least) and only resulted in card advantage in few cases.

However, more often it didn't help me when I was behind, e.g. when my opponent had 2 or more creatures, because it would only reduce my life further and make the opponent's clock faster.

Furthermore, there was often the case that i couldn't produce triple black due to Mishra's Factory and Wasteland, so it only made my deck more inconsistent.

Liliana easily replaces Pox as it does what Pox did, only better. It can easily be dropped off Dark Ritual T1 in contrast to Pox and i won about 90 % of the games with T1 Liliana. The whole deck must be dedicated to Liliana because she is really THAT good. I've even won with a mull to 4 once due to T1 Liliana. Every Pox-list has to start with 4 Dark Ritual and 4 Liliana.

[jin]

This isn't Pox. Your win condition is contingent upon 5 and 6cc planeswalkers? Pernicious Deed? These are far far too slow, and painfully inadequate to deal with Storm Combo.

You are right that Pox can't deal with artifact mana. However, Ratchet Bomb and Powder Keg do so quickly, and effectively. There is no reason to dip into :g: for PDeed when there are enough tools in artifacts that deal with the exact same problems.

Moreover, you're playing high CC planeswalker in lieu of the 4th Liliana which is deck misconstruction.

I agree that Sinkhole is not right for every metagame, but it's definitely better than some of the cards you have in your list. Smallpox is better than Dismember for instance, and the former should be maximized.

Please try the deck.

Have you played Storm Combo before? Discard stops storm combo. I've already defended this, so i'm not going to again.. read my post carefully.

Also, yes, I know it's not very Pox like to begin with, but Tempo Thresh no longer runs threshold creatures, but it is still based on the same strategy. This is a Pox deck that is based off of the original Pox strategy - Absolute board control via permanent and hand disruption.

I realize that Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg solves artifact mana, but these cards are terrible if you want to just blow up lands. Pernicious Deeds takes out threats and also takes out artifact mana as collateral, which is far better. Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg are painfully slow and by the time you find them, your oppoent might have already drawn into lands. Haven't you ever had a situation where you pox them out but they have artifact mana, and all you can do is wish you can draw your stupid Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg. I have. This deck doesn't dig well.

I don't unerstand what deck misconstruction is. Could you please elaborate. I would hardly call 4cmc high casting cost. Garruk3 is a beast. Try him, he's freaking strong.

You'll get to 6 mana easily. I only run 1x SmallPox. SmallPox has a different application than Dismember and can not be directly compared with it. Dismember is spot removal. SmallPox isn't.

Please help me fix the deck if you feel like you can find better cards for this list, because I feel that this list is optimal. What cards would you suggest that I replace and whcih cards should I replace them with. Please elaborate on your reasoning behind SmallPox > Dismember. Dismember is instantspeed spot removal which is relevant in many match ups. SmallPox is and edict effect with some bonuses. Against a swarm, or even a trio, it can't kill what you want it to kill.



I've played Pox(the deck) for a long time now and must say that I wasnt too happy with Pox(the card),
because it wasn't reliable enough so I cut it from my list, that's why I agree with Jin.
Pox was only good enough to punish bad opponents for keeping 1-land hands which nobody should do(in most cases at least) and only resulted in card advantage in few cases.

However, more often it didn't help me when I was behind, e.g. when my opponent had 2 or more creatures, because it would only reduce my life further and make the opponent's clock faster.

Furthermore, there was often the case that i couldn't produce triple black due to Mishra's Factory and Wasteland, so it only made my deck more inconsistent.

Liliana easily replaces Pox as it does what Pox did, only better. It can easily be dropped off Dark Ritual T1 in contrast to Pox and i won about 90 % of the games with T1 Liliana. The whole deck must be dedicated to Liliana because she is really THAT good. I've even won with a mull to 4 once due to T1 Liliana. Every Pox-list has to start with 4 Dark Ritual and 4 Liliana.

Liliana of the Veil does feel like she replaces pox. She ultimates so often when unanswered and that alone is like a Pox effect (minus iamfrightened's direct damage purposes).

I can't say I agree with Dark Ritual though, since I feel that Dark Ritual is a big hit to our hand. I think card disadvantage is the thing we want the least since all Pox effects (BigPox, SmallPox) are both card disadvantage inherently. I try to avoid card disadvantage at all costs. That's why i would sacrifice speed for it. Well, in my eyes, this pox deck is a control deck, so I expect to push it to late game....

[Oiolosse]

@jin -- your list is reminiscent of trisomy 21 (which is an amazing control deck to play). But without playtesting I would say that Sorin needs the boot. I'd suggest two more smallpox or even mox diamond to take you into Garruk faster and to increase the probability of a turn one Hymn.

[Smea.gol.lum]

I can only recommend you to try Dark Ritual out and you 'll probably see that the card disatvantage due to it is worth the speed it adds to the deck, especially after the Misstep-banning resulting in a faster environment.
Smallpox and BigPox aren't card disatvantage if you play them correctly, they are card parity in most cases.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

Pox is a disadvantage for your opponent, not you. also, Liliana is not going to be as good as everyone thinks in a real tournament environment, The best part is, if i am wrong and it is an auto win dominance your all claiming from your play testing, then it is a black card that plays well in black and WOFC will ban it almost immediately.

[bowvamp]

@iamfrightenedtoo:
Yes, Pox does put your opponent at a disadvantage when you play it correctly.

"Liliana is not going to be as good as everyone thinks in a real tournament environment, The best part is, if i am wrong and it is an auto win dominance your all claiming from your play testing, then it is a black card that plays well in black and WOFC will ban it almost immediately."
^ Care to elaborate? I don't think it's auto-win, I just think it is good enough to justify dark ritual.

@jin:
If you want help with your list (which is no longer pox in my eyes, but a non-thematic BG-control rock type of deck) I suggest you ask in the Rock thread. It seems a little more relevant now.

The reasons why dismember > smallpox in some scenarios are obvious. In others, smallpox > dismember. All I know is that if you're casting them for 2 mana, smallpox does less damage to you (and pings the opponent). Dismember @ 1 cc does too much damage to be useful when you've already got sac effects/board control. Also, if you're concerned about utility creatures or mermen early game, consider Disfigure

[jin]

@jin -- your list is reminiscent of trisomy 21 (which is an amazing control deck to play). But without playtesting I would say that Sorin needs the boot. I'd suggest two more smallpox or even mox diamond to take you into Garruk faster and to increase the probability of a turn one Hymn.

I've seen that deck around but never looked into it, I"ll check it out, thanks. Yeah, I actually cut BigPox for Sorin because in matchups versus control decks, Garruk's 2/2's and 1/1's and Liliana's Ulitmate just didn't cut it. I was playing versus a Thopter Foundry deck and he was at pretty low life, but between Pithing Needle on Pernicious Deed, empty hand and Ensnaring Bridge, I was really having trouble getting 9 damage through. This is why I decided to play Sorin.

I guess it is quite situational. Maybe I'll move him to the sideboard. If I cut him, I'd probably play more SmallPox...


I can only recommend you to try Dark Ritual out and you 'll probably see that the card disatvantage due to it is worth the speed it adds to the deck, especially after the Misstep-banning resulting in a faster environment.
Smallpox and BigPox aren't card disatvantage if you play them correctly, they are card parity in most cases.

Hardly.. Pox effects will rarely be card parity. You are forgetting you have to cast the card yourself, so you automatically lose that card. You also have to discard accordingly. It is card parity at best....


Pox is a disadvantage for your opponent, not you. also, Liliana is not going to be as good as everyone thinks in a real tournament environment, The best part is, if i am wrong and it is an auto win dominance your all claiming from your play testing, then it is a black card that plays well in black and WOFC will ban it almost immediately.

How does your deck utiliaze Pox to the fullest because in most situations I guarentee that the advantage you gain is minuscule and most of you probably can't capitalize on it. Other than those aggro pox with Blood Ghasts lists, I cannot really see where you are coming from with this. Those lists aren't that strong either as creatures are quite easily removed now a days.

Pox is only advantageous because you know it is coming. That means you can't drop lands and you have to play spells that aren't affected by Pox. These spells are typically weaker or slower than their creature/land varient. ie. phyrexian negator, phyrexian totem or chrome mox, swamp, etc.

It doesn't dominate, it works well.


@iamfrightenedtoo:
Yes, Pox does put your opponent at a disadvantage when you play it correctly.

"Liliana is not going to be as good as everyone thinks in a real tournament environment, The best part is, if i am wrong and it is an auto win dominance your all claiming from your play testing, then it is a black card that plays well in black and WOFC will ban it almost immediately."
^ Care to elaborate? I don't think it's auto-win, I just think it is good enough to justify dark ritual.

@jin:
If you want help with your list (which is no longer pox in my eyes, but a non-thematic BG-control rock type of deck) I suggest you ask in the Rock thread. It seems a little more relevant now.

The reasons why dismember > smallpox in some scenarios are obvious. In others, smallpox > dismember. All I know is that if you're casting them for 2 mana, smallpox does less damage to you (and pings the opponent). Dismember @ 1 cc does too much damage to be useful when you've already got sac effects/board control. Also, if you're concerned about utility creatures or mermen early game, consider Disfigure

I agree with you on Liliana, she isn't auto win at all. She is good though.

I don't think Rock would agree with this list as well since Rock is an aggro-control deck that uses fast beats. Most lists only run 1x Pernicious Deed and don't try to wipe the board too often since it is anti-synergetic with their own creatures. I don't understand this:


In others, smallpox > dismember.

The purpose of Dismember isn't to deal damage to your oppoent or to save your own life from damage, it is to remove problematic creatures that would otherwise be unremovalable by Smallpox, ie. Goyf with friends or Grim Lavamancers with friends... or Wild Nacatl's with friends.

If you want an edict effect, Liliana of the Veil has that. I also have 4 Innocent Blood in my list, so I have enough edict effects that I can afford some spot removal...

Thanks for your constructive input.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

@bowvamp

i really cannot elaborate, i just dont think Liliana is going to be that effective. i think the card has a place in pox, or in all forms of control, but asking an opponent to discard a card of their choice, during my turn doesnt excite me.
i do like the edict effect, but not every other turn, or even every three turns. ill tell everyone now, if i would pay to get the card, or a few copies (not four) it definitely re-enforces ensnaring bridge.
you are right, she does offer more opportunities for dark ritual, but i have never had a problem with running dark ritual anyway. i get an almost nervousness about me with anticipation when a Duress, hymn, and dark ritual finds it way into my opening hand. (swamp included of course)

(I also have probably case a first turn pox with dark ritual more than any of you have cast pox) Poker players always have an opening hand that they simply cannot throw away, and sometimes the hand is not even a good one.

Swamp, Dark ritual, Pox, is something i love to to announce on my opening turn. it is comparable to a drug. admittedly it rarely works out, but i have also only entered a tournament with a Pox deck with an intention of winning, maybe a dozen times in a decade.
mono black pox is hard to play, it is hard to win with.
Greg Russell's B/G Pox s a decent build, offers everything that pox doesnt offer, and it adds pox.
as a pox player, my mind tells me to switch to a version of it. i used to play G/B pox way back when Deed first came out, i enjoyed it, but it did not feel right (deep inside me)
one thing you should understand about me, is i love mono black pox. just as my comment about casting a first turn pox more often than most players cast pox. I have entered a tournament with a bad Pox build just to try something out in the deck, knowing i had no chance of really winning, than most people have entered tournaments. (Obviously this is an egregious exaggeration)

mono black pox is a pure deck, there is nothing fancy, and you have to MTG balls to play it. the deck can beat you just as easy (if not easier) than it can beat your opponent. the win conditions are varied and none are very good.

someone said earlier that they only run one small pox. that is like kissing your sister. why?
what is the point of just one? and dont get me wrong, i do not run any.
1/3 of my opponents life is worth 1/3 of my hand lands and life. (i do not really use creatures so i rarely have to worry about that.) i also do not care about my opponent sacrificing creatures, or even lands. i care about the two cards on average they have to dump and the life they have to sacrifice. back to small pox, one of my opponents creatures, lands, and hands, is not worth me doing the same. I wish it made each player sac two of everything. that would be fair, and rightfully so, it could still cost two black. Small Pox should only cost one black. if it were blue, you the caster would have to sacrifice nothing. (i also vehemently hate blue, and all blue players passionately)

as for Liliana, Wizzards of the coast can call me when they make a card for one black mana, that makes me choose, each player sacs 1/3 of their life, hand, creatures, or lands. is that not fair? over powered, and would change the face of Magic the Gathering. and more importantly why not? they gave control color a blue permanent, that is difficult to kill without placing cards in your deck just for them, that only cost four mana, and wins the game within four turns.
JAce the Mind Sculptor is like a one card combo. In the last 5 years blue has gotten Counter balance, Jace, mental misstep (banned suck it) Vendilion Clique. tell me there is no bias for blue.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

@ jin
i run ensnaring bridge.
the bloodghast aggro decks i was just trying something new, i abandoned it after two weeks.

ensnaring bridge is very powerful in this current meta game, actually it has worked well for me in every meta game since it came out.

which is also why i am fearless in casting Pox. i know my opponent is going to have a difficult time in attacking me. (against red deck wins and all other forms of direct damage) i basically auto lose, but if you go into a match against those decks and expect anything else but a loss, you are asleep at the wheel.

with pox i have noticed lately i rarely side board. the deck wither works or it doesnt. i have also became interested in the Necrotic Oooze combo in the last month or two, i may just put the Ooze combo in the sideboard, and make the sideboard transformative(SP im tired and dont feel like finding the correct spelling for this.)
this is just a thought i have been kicking around, i have not tried it, not even sure i will. but i like the idea of having an answer to RDW, and Zoo.

[jin]

Swamp, Dark ritual, Pox, is something i love to to announce on my opening turn. it is comparable to a drug. admittedly it rarely works out, but i have also only entered a tournament with a Pox deck with an intention of winning, maybe a dozen times in a decade.

This is terrible. Assuming they played turn 1 land, Nacatl (best play for turn 1 Pox), you still lose your land.. and have to discard 2 cards going down to 3 cards on turn one with nothing on the board. Your oppoent also loses 2 cards and goes down to 3 cards. At best (this is best), you have symmetry and not advantage



JAce the Mind Sculptor is like a one card combo. In the last 5 years blue has gotten Counter balance, Jace, mental misstep (banned suck it) Vendilion Clique. tell me there is no bias for blue.

Black has gotten Thoughtseize, Ad Nauseam, Infernal Tutor, Tombstalker, Blood Ghast, Entomb (again).. don't be bias.


@ jin
i run ensnaring bridge.
the bloodghast aggro decks i was just trying something new, i abandoned it after two weeks.

ensnaring bridge is very powerful in this current meta game, actually it has worked well for me in every meta game since it came out.

which is also why i am fearless in casting Pox. i know my opponent is going to have a difficult time in attacking me. (against red deck wins and all other forms of direct damage) i basically auto lose, but if you go into a match against those decks and expect anything else but a loss, you are asleep at the wheel.

with pox i have noticed lately i rarely side board. the deck wither works or it doesnt. i have also became interested in the Necrotic Oooze combo in the last month or two, i may just put the Ooze combo in the sideboard, and make the sideboard transformative(SP im tired and dont feel like finding the correct spelling for this.)
this is just a thought i have been kicking around, i have not tried it, not even sure i will. but i like the idea of having an answer to RDW, and Zoo.

Well the BloodGhast plan has been discussed for a long time now. Bridge is ok... It's not a bad idea.

I don't like auto losing.

Interesting how just a few posts ago, you called my idea illogical,
but now you are thinking about putting it in your deck (or have been thinking about it for a month or two)..
I'm glad you turned around..


what is the point of running pox with the ooze combo?
this is not logical. i say this now, and a month ago when i started to build the very deck.
the fact is, pox does not slow down your opponent. it makes everything equal.
the ooze combo is ...

[iamfrightenedtoo]

@jin
about the Ooze combo,
it was my understanding (please forgive me if i am wrong) that you were going to put the Ooze combo in the main deck. that does not make sense. I was planning on putting 15 cards of the combo in my sideboard. I want to do this so i can swap out Pox stuff and add in Ooze cards. they both require different sideboard cards from your opponent so anything they might sideboard, i could hopefully nullify.

and about my love for a first turn Pox, i know it is bad. I still love doing it. It is the same thing as people who drink and drive, they know the consequence is terrible but they still do it.
(yes i did just compare playing a first turn Pox to drinking and driving. i was Hit by a drunk driver 16 years ago, and i often play Pox on turn one, i feel i am qualified to make such comparisons.)

about my bias towards blue, i thought i made it clear my bias against blue. and my passionate hatred for people who play the disgusting color.
but for the sake of getting in a argument i will most likely lose, ill volley.

Counter balance, Jace, mental misstep (banned suck it) Vendilion Clique
Thoughtseize, Ad Nauseam, Infernal Tutor, Tombstalker, Blood Ghast, Entomb

ill give you maybe Entomb, that is it. Bloodghast can be exiled, and killed easily every turn, it cannot block and is only a 2/1
tombstalker, again, is a creature with no second ability. (when i say second ability, i mean like Clique, can send a card from your hand to the bottom of your library, oh it also flies and has flash. the only downfall of it, is the player the spell is used on can draw a card.)
infernal tutor is good for combo decks. but you cant run it in mono black, Ad Nauseam, again a single deck card. do you run Ad Nauseam in mono black, dredge, any deck involving Dark Confidant. i would have given you Dark Confidant, even if it was out of the last 5 years.
Thoughtsieze, is good, ill give you thoughsieze but even if, is thoughtsieze better than JAce the mind sculptor, counter blanance, or clique?
and now back to entomb, another card that is deck specific.
Jace, and clique can go in all blue decks. thoughtsieze can go in all black decks, thats it.

[Beautiful-Decay]

Hello people I would like to see if Lilliana could find a place in my POX LD deck. Or if she belongs to my sideboard somewhere, since I play with Trinisphere. Anyway here's my list. :) comment and give me few proposals to where she be adopted and which little "diamond" of the deck I should throw away, for her. Thanks for your time.

Mana Base (24):
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
3 Scrublands
3 Mutavault
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Swamp
1 Godless Shrine
1 Flagstones of Trokair

Creatures (4):
2 Epochrasite
1 Tombstalkers
1 Nihilith

Spells (32):
4 Pox
4 Small Pox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Sinkhole
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Sensei's Dividing Top
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Syphon Life

Sideboard (15):
2 Ghostly Prison
3 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Leyline of the Void

[bowvamp]

Do you actually own 3 Tabernacles? If I were you and I was only allowed to take stuff out to put in Liliana this is what I'd do:
-3 SDT
-1 Syphon Life
+4 Liliana of the Veil

[bruizar]

The introduction of Liliana of the Veil is the best thing that could happen to Pox. Sadly, that still isn't good enough. Pox will never be a deck because it is fundamentally flawed. It aims to put both players in topdeck mode with cards such as Small Pox, Pox, Hymn to Tourach, etc. It tries to gain marginal card advantage by carefully counting the number of cards in hand and in play before playing Pox, so that the effect is not symmetrical.

I will be the first guy to say that I love this strategy. So far so good. The problem with this deck, however, is that your topdecks are worst than your opponent's topdecks. This means that even though you put considerable effort into spiralling both players into topdeck mode, the deck is WEAK when it reaches that objective.

Simply put, while the Pox player topdecks a Pox, I topdeck a Sensei's Divining Top. While the Pox player topdecks a Hymn, I topdeck a Tarmogoyf. While the Pox player topdecks a Swamp, I topdeck a Snapcaster Mage.

There are too many non-threat cards to be good enough in topdeck mode, but if you try to make room for it, the strategy of spiralling the game into topdeck mode doesn't work anymore.

This deck is fun, but bad, because it's inherently flawed.


There have been a few other significant printings, which sadly didn't go to the color black.

Skaab Ruinator is a card that would be very good in Pox. The problem, again, is threat density. You don't run enough creatures to support it nor do you want to remove Bloodghasts. I haven't even mentioned the fact that it's double blue.

[bowvamp]

Good for you bruizar. I hope you continue to dislike pox. I just HATE when I'm put up against my best matchup aka Blue Aggro Control. /sarcasm

I've been testing the following sideboard. What do you guys think?

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Faerie Macabre
4 Duress
1 Necroplasm
1 Death's Shadow
1 Shield Sphere
2 Winter Orb
1 Pithing Needle

[Beautiful-Decay]

Yes, I own the Tabernacles. Not that I find them very important though. They seems to bring mixed results. But help the sideboard turn into a control shell if needed. However I find Bruizers replay true in a some match ups. And I placed SDT there to help me top-deck the right cards which ofc is helped by the fetcheds continue to be replayed by CoW and link 3 new cards in the top deck each turn. So I'm not sure I am willing to let that go. However this also leads me to why I chose Mutavault over Mishra's Factory, when top-decking starts for both players it might be better to let go of the mishra' pump ability because every new card you draw has to have an effect on the play to win (SDT) and the lands have to push meanwhile you find a finisher. So why take lands that lockdown more of your mana for +1/+1 pump when you can deny them the artifact removal cards. I asked for suggestions and you brought one! which means I will test both and see if you're correct. :) so Thanks for your time (Your change has been written down) and hopefully there is more to come as soon as people decides to respond :)

[bruizar]

@bowvamp: I do not dislike Pox, in fact, I love the deck. It's very machiavelistic in nature and I think that is pretty unique for a deck. I would not play with any less than 4 Liliana's. They are super awesome, not just in Pox. It's very easy to ramp to 6 and it provides you with a permanent out to your opponent's topdecks.

I am not fond of Sinkhole, because you simply don't care about their lands. Especially in the post-Misstep era. They go turn 1 Aether Vial, you go turn 2 Sinkhole. Your opponent doesn't care about your Sinkhole because he can cheat creatures into play anyway. Also, Aether Vial is pretty good against Liliana. Also, I advise you to cut down on wastelands. 0 is the correct number. I have tested Vengeful Pharaoh to very positive results in another deck, and have advised my friend who has been a long time Pox player (2 or 3 years) to play them. They are great in the late game, where you will simply beat your opponent to death, and they are great with Pox/Smallpox/Liliana. They give you built-in protection from topdecks and serve as win conditions as well.

If you are running white, why are you running only 1 Flagstones of Trokair? I think the main advantage of running white IS Flagstone of Trokair and you're already running 4 Urborgs.

[bruizar]

@bowvamp: I do not dislike Pox, in fact, I love the deck. It's very machiavelistic in nature and I think that is pretty unique for a deck. I would not play with any less than 4 Liliana's. They are super awesome, not just in Pox. It's very easy to ramp to 6 and it provides you with a permanent out to your opponent's topdecks.

I am not fond of Sinkhole, because you simply don't care about their lands. Especially in the post-Misstep era. They go turn 1 Aether Vial, you go turn 2 Sinkhole. Your opponent doesn't care about your Sinkhole because he can cheat creatures into play anyway. Also, Aether Vial is pretty good against Liliana. Also, I advise you to cut down on wastelands. 0 is the correct number. I have tested Vengeful Pharaoh to very positive results in another deck, and have advised my friend who has been a long time Pox player (2 or 3 years) to play them. They are great in the late game, where you will simply beat your opponent to death, and they are great with Pox/Smallpox/Liliana. They give you built-in protection from topdecks and serve as win conditions as well.

If you are running white, why are you running only 1 Flagstones of Trokair? I think the main advantage of running white IS Flagstone of Trokair and you're already running 4 Urborgs.

[jin]

Hello people I would like to see if Lilliana could find a place in my POX LD deck. Or if she belongs to my sideboard somewhere, since I play with Trinisphere. Anyway here's my list. :) comment and give me few proposals to where she be adopted and which little "diamond" of the deck I should throw away, for her. Thanks for your time.

Mana Base (24):
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
3 Scrublands
3 Mutavault
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Swamp
1 Godless Shrine
1 Flagstones of Trokair

Creatures (4):
2 Epochrasite
1 Tombstalkers
1 Nihilith

Spells (32):
4 Pox
4 Small Pox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Sinkhole
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Sensei's Dividing Top
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Syphon Life

Sideboard (15):
2 Ghostly Prison
3 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Leyline of the Void


If you are running white, why are you running only 1 Flagstones of Trokair? I think the main advantage of running white IS Flagstone of Trokair and you're already running 4 Urborgs.

Agreed. Run more Flagstone of Trokair. It'll make you want to Pox-effect more often. If you are running land destruction, run less BigPox, don't cut Sensei's Divining Top. BigPox is less effective because you'll be playing SmallPox/Sinkhole/Wasteland before you cast BigPox. By that time, at best, you'll only net land. At this point, you'll rather cast the Vindicate on his land rather than BigPox because it hurts you like hell as well. This is what you should do:

-2x Fetchland
-1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
+2x Flagstone of Trokair
+1x Scrubland

-2x Pox
-4x Hymn to Tourach
+3x Liliana of the Veil
+3x Thoughtseize

There really isn't a point to play Hymn to Tourach because between Sinkhole and Smallpox, you'll never cast Hymn to Tourach

Also, I would change Mutavault back to Mishra's Factory. Mishra's Factory just block better and blocking is more important in this deck than attacking. You need to preserve life.

[Greenpoe]

Sinkhole better than Hymn? Hmm... 2-for-1's are good, and Sinkhole gets owned by Vial. Plus, Hymn can hit lands too.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

i have a serious question.
in what game can you never cast a hymn? and in what turn?
turn one, i often have a difficult time casting hymn. and before turn 4, casting a Pox is like casting a hymn, as they have to, on average, discard two cards.

also,
i more often than i should sit looking at my opponent while trying to figure them out, and wish i had a corrupt to cast.

Mana is never a problem with my deck.
because i run 18 swamp and do not bother with all the BS.

oh and never having any BS lands has never cost me a game, ever.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

Sinkhole better than Hymn? Hmm... 2-for-1's are good, and Sinkhole gets owned by Vial. Plus, Hymn can hit lands too.


i agree,
i used to run Sinkhole until i realized i was dumping my opponents lands with hymn more often than not. Immediately freed up a 4 slot in my deck.

[jin]

Sinkhole better than Hymn? Hmm... 2-for-1's are good, and Sinkhole gets owned by Vial. Plus, Hymn can hit lands too.

No, it's not. His strategy is land destruction, so I want to keep with it. If he plays Hymn to Tourach, he'll have to cut Sinkhole and that's not what he wants to play.

Also, Ghostly Prison stops Vial decks. All he needs is to cut Syphon Life for the 3rd Ghostly Prison main deck.


i have a serious question.
in what game can you never cast a hymn? and in what turn?
turn one, i often have a difficult time casting hymn. and before turn 4, casting a Pox is like casting a hymn, as they have to, on average, discard two cards.

also,
i more often than i should sit looking at my opponent while trying to figure them out, and wish i had a corrupt to cast.

Mana is never a problem with my deck.
because i run 18 swamp and do not bother with all the BS.

oh and never having any BS lands has never cost me a game, ever.

None, you should always be able to cast Hymn to Tourach. It is pretty much the best card in this deck, but he wants to play a land destruction strategy. There are 12 2 drops.. you have to cut one.

I play 18 swamps as well. Except I play 23 lands and I don't always make land drops for BigPox. Without cantrips, you can't consistantly make land drops. That's why I play Sensei's Divining Top to help.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

you are right @jin about the land destruction. If the point of the deck is to control land then, Sink Hole is a better option, i would still run Hymn though, it is one of the best black cards available for any deck.

[jin]

you are right @jin about the land destruction. If the point of the deck is to control land then, Sink Hole is a better option, i would still run Hymn though, it is one of the best black cards available for any deck.

Yeah, but given the purpose of his strategy, it's easier to just cut hymn or else you'll be hymning him everytime you should be casting sinkhole and pretty much by the time this is all said and done, his deck will just be another discard pox deck rather than an LD one..

It's really difficult to play 4x hymn, 4x sinkhole and 4x Smallpox

[Beautiful-Decay]

Still in playtest-mode. And need to wait for a package with the Lillianas etc. Before I can began to test her. But first I have to test which 2 cmc card I can let go off or reduce.

Mana Base (24):
4-1=3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (still in testing state due to 7 colorless mana producers)
4 Wasteland
3 Scrublands
3 Mutavault or Mishra's Factory (still in testing state)
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Swamp
1 Godless Shrine
1 Flagstones of Trokair (It is true that these is amazing but while I ran 4 Pox they could be hard to cast with 7 colorless mana lands and 1 white only land. (1/3 of the lands) = now I've removed a Pox I may try to add 1 or two.))

Creatures (4):
2 Epochrasite
1 Tombstalkers
1 Nihilith

Spells (32):
4-1=3 Pox
4 Small Pox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Sinkhole (Sinkhole over Hymn because in top-deck mode Hymn dosen't add anything to the decks function where Sinkhole do. Though I see your points in 12 two cmc cards.)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek or Thoughtseizes if the -1 Pox and maybe other changes add some less life losses.
3 Sensei's Dividing Top
2 Crucible of Worlds
2+1 =3 Ghostly Prison
-1 Syphon Life (though it works wonders with CoW and is a fine top-deck I'll try without it.)

Sideboard (15):
2-1=1 Ghostly Prison ( who says "no" to 1 more SB slot?)
3 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Leyline of the Void

The changes would require alot of testing, which puts be back to work on the deck (which I like) However this dosen't change the fact you're welcome to add comments or changes if wished. More work equals more of what I like about magic ;)

[jin]

...

I didn't really pay attention to your creature base. What's your reasoning behind 1x Tombstalker and 1x Nihilith? I think Nihilith is better for a Pox deck because it is fast, unblockable and isn't too scared of Plow if you remove everything the opponent has before it comes into play. Tombstalker is more immediate and is more likely to eat a plow.

The problem is that with your list, if you run more Nihilith, you're running more 2CMC cards.. which you really can't play. therefore, I think Tombstalker is better for your list. Epocracite is good in theory. He draws countermagic and plows. You could consider playing more of those, but they are rather slow...

[Poxrocks]

@ Beautiful-Decay:

There is never a good reason to run Mutavault over Mishra's factory. Also, you should run 4. With your mana base, no less than 4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is acceptable.

Nihilith is hands down better than Epochrasite in Pox. Tombstalker is better than both. I prefer 3 Tombstalker/2 Nihilth myself. Preferences will vary, but your deck is light on threats.

[Koby]

I just thought of something from long ago. Cursed Scroll with Lily is a good way to pick off extra weenies, or finish off the opponent. Maybe it's something that we should consider in more detail.

[jin]

I just thought of something from long ago. Cursed Scroll with Lily is a good way to pick off extra weenies, or finish off the opponent. Maybe it's something that we should consider in more detail.

I've tried it. It works well in a pox light deck but in a pox heavy deck, you usually don't have enough lands to cast spells and scroll at the same time....

[iamfrightenedtoo]

@jin
are you playtesting Pox, or playing in tournaments. I promise there is a substantial difference.

In playtesting, more often than not you play against people you know. or just goldfishing.
If you continuously play against the same people or person, they know your deck just as good as you do, but in a different light.

they know how to play against you.

when you play against people you do not know, people who do not know what you are playing, and more importantly people who do not know how the deck works, the outcomes will not be the same.

Pox heavy or Pox light, Cursed scroll was always good in Pox. not recently so much, creatures are different. But i play it every now and then, i always like it.

the problem with me, i do not want to accept how slow the card is. the whole deck is slow. but cursed scroll as well as underworld dreams. great for the deck, they just work together. but they are both way to slow.

@poxrocks
why wouldnt you run mutavult over factory? the factories can get destroyed, and you need two out to make the creature a 2/2
with a mutavult they are base 2/2 and if you are playing certain tribal decks they get bigger, and other abilities.

[eternaldarkness]

Your thinking about Blinkmoth Nexus. Mishra's Factories are also base 2/2 similar to Mutavault. Factories being artifact creatures really isn't that big a deal; not a whole lot of people will board in artifact destruction against Pox. And if they do just to get rid of Factory, then that's one less answer to Crucible. The reason why I would consider Mutavault over Factory would be if I'm in a Merfolk heavy meta where my manlands can piggyback ride on their lords. Other than that, the pump ability makes Factories the better choice.

[Poxrocks]

Eternaldarkness summed up my reasoning behind Mishra's Factor > Mutavault.

Even in a Merfolk meta you'll only be piggybacking on Lord of Atlantis with Mutavault. With two Lord of Atlantis on the table Mutavault is better than Mishra's Factory. However, you're also probably screwed because you opponent has two Lord of Atlantis on the board, presumably with all his other fishies.

[Smea.gol.lum]

I'm planning to take Pox to GP Amsterdam and haven't settled on my sideboard cards yet.
So far it looks like this:
3 Null Rod
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Extirpate
3 Pithing Needle
3 open slots

I'm still desperately searching for an answer for aggro, but haven't found an adequate one yet.
Perish is good against certain decks, but it doesn't help so much against Zoo, which is a bad matchup(at least fast Zoo).
Lately, I've been testing Spinning Darkness, but I had mixed feelings regarding the disharmony with Tombstalker.

Any proposals?

[Grollub]

You could try Deathmark if you're contend with spot removal, but feel like Spinning Darkness' alternative cost hampers your Tombstalkers too much.

[Poxrocks]

Withering Wisps is great against aggro. Unfortunately, it take a turn to be effective.

Infest (or even Massacre depending on the meta) won't kill a fully grown Kird Ape/Goyf/Nacatl, but it can clear a board of all the other annoying creatures eating your edict spells.

[zathe922]

Powder Keg or Ratchet Bomb? I guess Damnation could work but it is probably to expensive for pox.

[jin]

Consuming vapor is quite a lot cheaper and very good against zoo... Life gain is really helpful... Also 2 for one is good

[TokenMaster]

I generally prefer Powder Keg to deal with Zoo. Consuming Vapors is okay, but will definitely be too slow if Zoo gets the momentum early. If Zoo is a really big problem in your meta, then Phyrexian Cusader might be really helpful. First Strike with infect will automatically render their Kird Apes useless, and protection from boros colors makes it immune to removal. Can't stop a Tarmogoyf, but it stops everything else.

[jin]

I generally prefer Powder Keg to deal with Zoo. Consuming Vapors is okay, but will definitely be too slow if Zoo gets the momentum early. If Zoo is a really big problem in your meta, then Phyrexian Cusader might be really helpful. First Strike with infect will automatically render their Kird Apes useless, and protection from boros colors makes it immune to removal. Can't stop a Tarmogoyf, but it stops everything else.

Keg sucks vs Zoo. The crusader is interesting..

[bowvamp]

The crusader can only be viewed as creature hate against zoo though, because no other sources of damage in the deck help him to kill your opponent. I'd rather play Wall of Tanglecord, Wall of Junk or Shield Sphere. If your list supports it Meekstone could be useful, although it does nothing to goblins, and allows other creature strategies to amass a swarm and swing for lethal. If you're running white, there's Island Sanctuary, and Ghostly Prison.

[TokenMaster]

The crusader can only be viewed as creature hate against zoo though, because no other sources of damage in the deck help him to kill your opponent. I'd rather play Wall of Tanglecord, Wall of Junk or Shield Sphere. If your list supports it Meekstone could be useful, although it does nothing to goblins, and allows other creature strategies to amass a swarm and swing for lethal. If you're running white, there's Island Sanctuary, and Ghostly Prison.Walls can get killed by removal, and the ones you listed can also be destroyed by Qasali Pridemage. Also, the Crusader is more than just an empty blocker, because infect will instantly render Kird Apes and anything with power 2 or less unable to deal damage in the following turns, which can give you plenty of time to start fighting back. Walls will just keep blocking one creature at a time without being able to shut them down.

[Smea.gol.lum]

Hmm, Infest doesn't do anything against Zoo as well as against Merfolk most of the time.

Damnation and Consuming Vapors are too slow.

The walls obviously suck in conjunction with Smallpox and Innocent Blood as well as Phyrexian Crusader (with lifelink maybe, but without it's far too slow).

I think I'll stick with Ratchet Bombs as they are astonishingly decent against 1-drop-Zoo which is the scariest version and also handles other problem cards like Bitterblossom.

[bowvamp]

I wasn't suggesting that you actually use any of the cards I said were equivalent to Crusader. Also, my main point was that Crusader is only going to be a reliably good blocker and is really bad dis-synergy with life loss effects. Death's Shadow costs less mana, kills more stuff, and is synergistic with life loss. Basically, crusader doesn't work very well.
Also, Sun Droplet works VERY well against burn-heavy zoo.

Right now I'm using a Semi-Nassif Board with 4 Leylines. What are you all using for gy hate, combo hate, and swarm-creature hate?

[Koby]

What are you all using for gy hate, combo hate, and swarm-creature hate?

This is my SB as of now:

2 Spinning Darkness
3 Perish
2 Smother
3 Extirpate
4 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Duress (3 maindeck, along with 3 IoK)

[Smea.gol.lum]

Have you tested Spinning Darkness a lot? Is it worth running it despite its dissynergy with Tombstalker?
I've thought about it, too, but have recently abandoned this idea.

My current sideboard looks like:

4 Leyline
2 Extirpate
3 Null Rod
3 Darkblast
3 Pithing Needle

In my testings I've often lost to control decks featuring Snapmages and Cliques.
It's really hard to stick a Liliana in this matchup and I've lost a bit of faith in my pox deck cause it's such a mess to play against these kinda decks.

[jin]

Have you tested Spinning Darkness a lot? Is it worth running it despite its dissynergy with Tombstalker?
I've thought about it, too, but have recently abandoned this idea.

My current sideboard looks like:

4 Leyline
2 Extirpate
3 Null Rod
3 Darkblast
3 Pithing Needle

In my testings I've often lost to control decks featuring Snapmages and Cliques.
It's really hard to stick a Liliana in this matchup and I've lost a bit of faith in my pox deck cause it's such a mess to play against these kinda decks.

How did you lose with Extirpate and Leyline? Which varient of Snapcaster is it?

I think you are running too many darkblasts in the sb...

I've tried spinning Darkness for several months, and it's not very impressive. I usually lose it to Pox or I don't have enough black cards to feed it. Pox isn't a really fast deck, so cards don't move around that often...

When you need Spinning Darkness (in the early game when creatures are still small), you really can't power it out through the alternative cost. I would rather play Contagion as the counters are permanent and makes multiple zoo creatures not viable.. of course this ultimately weakens your pox on them. In the end I cut both for cheap removal like Innocent Blood or Ghastly Demise/Dismember...

[Smea.gol.lum]

I'm losing primarily to the UW versions featuring Plow, Clique, Snapmages and many counterspells.

I don't think that boarding Leylines in only because of Snapcaster Mage is the right thing to do.

Another card I'm tinkering with in my sideboard is Engineered Plague:
It's very good against Elves, decent against Goblins and Merfolk and also helps against many control decks which are often running at least 6 wizards (Snapcaster Mage, Clique).

Riptide Laboratory on their side is an indicator for us to play Plagues on our side imo.

[jin]

I'm losing primarily to the UW versions featuring Plow, Clique, Snapmages and many counterspells.

I don't think that boarding Leylines in only because of Snapcaster Mage is the right thing to do.

Another card I'm tinkering with in my sideboard is Engineered Plague:
It's very good against Elves, decent against Goblins and Merfolk and also helps against many control decks which are often running at least 6 wizards (Snapcaster Mage, Clique).

Riptide Laboratory on their side is an indicator for us to play Plagues on our side imo.

hehe, sounds like you are just hating on Snapcaster decks. Well, I wouldn't worry about it too much. UW Snapcaster decks have a lot more power than monoB Pox decks. Plus Snapcaster inherently negates some of Pox's abilities. It doesn't seem like a fair match up.

Maybe we should start playing chalice = ) <Edit: n/m spell snare will hit that...>

[bowvamp]

jin, what makes you say "UW Snapcaster decks have a lot more power than monoB Pox decks."? Actually, don't answer that question.

What do the BG Pox folks think about Khalni Garden.

[jin]

jin, what makes you say "UW Snapcaster decks have a lot more power than monoB Pox decks."? Actually, don't answer that question.

What do the BG Pox folks think about Khalni Garden.

LOL.. I guess I won't. But regarding the land, what do you mean? What purpose does it serve besides help your creatures live...?

CIPT is terrible, so there better be a good reason for the need of a 0/1 token..

[Poxrocks]

I would agree with Jin, CIPT for a 0/1 token is a pretty crappy deal IMO. I ran 2 Bojuka Bogs maindeck just as a gotcha card against some decks and had CIPT bite me in the ass more often than not.

Speaking of lands that generate tokens, how do y'all feel about Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai? It works well with Pox/Smallpox/Zuran Orb/Crucible.

I use Entombs, which becomes a land tutor with Crucible of Worlds in play. Then again, the whole point of entomb is to become Bloodghast #5-8. However, the thought of a land card that helps break Pox's symmetric symmetry always makes me happy.

[bowvamp]

@Poxrocks:
It seems that your list is pretty gy dependent. How much dredge hate do you have in your meta?
Also, God's Eye kind of doesn't work well with Pox/Smallpox. It produces colorless mana and doesn't make the token till after you've sacced your creature.
You run Zuran Orb?
@jin:
The purpose of the 0/1 is to protect you (and your creatures as previously mentioned). With one card invested, you get a chump blocker + land. CIPT isn't that big of a problem if you just run more lands. Basically, the 0/1 is a Maze of Ith activation effective as soon as your opponent plays something. And in the meantime, unlike Maze, Gardens taps for mana.

IDK, just a little idea I had.

[jin]

@Poxrocks:
It seems that your list is pretty gy dependent. How much dredge hate do you have in your meta?
Also, God's Eye kind of doesn't work well with Pox/Smallpox. It produces colorless mana and doesn't make the token till after you've sacced your creature.
You run Zuran Orb?
@jin:
The purpose of the 0/1 is to protect you (and your creatures as previously mentioned). With one card invested, you get a chump blocker + land. CIPT isn't that big of a problem if you just run more lands. Basically, the 0/1 is a Maze of Ith activation effective as soon as your opponent plays something. And in the meantime, unlike Maze, Gardens taps for mana.

IDK, just a little idea I had.

Oh, I see now. Yeah CIPT is really really bad. I think God's Eye is better, but you can no longer run Mishra's Factories. generic mana is fine since you will be running Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. I run 3 in my list of 23 lands. I stil think Mishra's Factory + Crucible is better than both options though..

I only run 3 colourless mana in my 23 with 3 Urborg though. The number has to be quite low for it to not screw you.

I think running more lands is not so good in this deck that already needs so many lands. Too man lands make bad topdecks if you want your post-pox to be stronger

[jin]

stupid double post.. sorry.

[Poxrocks]

@Poxrocks:
It seems that your list is pretty gy dependent. How much dredge hate do you have in your meta?
Also, God's Eye kind of doesn't work well with Pox/Smallpox. It produces colorless mana and doesn't make the token till after you've sacced your creature.
You run Zuran Orb?


GY hate in my meta is pretty random; as far as I know, I run the most sideboard GY hate out of most people I've played. I do worry about how much Pox seems to rely on the GY nowadays what with Tombstalker, Bloodghast, and Nether Spirit.

I only suggested God's Eye because it's superior the Khalni Garden in Pox IMO. However, neither really have the power to warrant replacing their respective Swamp/Bayou.

I probably shouldn't have mentioned Zuran Orb, it's a sideboard card in burn heavy metas. It was just another reliable way to sac lands.

[Smea.gol.lum]

Heyho,
unfortunately I went 2-3-1 drop at the GP but I still think that Pox is a very strong deck with a lot of potential, however it's very unforgiving.
I won my first round against UGW Midrange but lost Round 2 against Maverick which has been a good matchup in my testings.
G1 I made a slight mistake of not wasting a Maze of Ith immediately, because I didn't know that it can still untap a creature that has already dealt damage(pretty dumb imo). That would have bought me 1 more turn to find something with Senseis's Div Top.
G2 i lose despite a T1 Liliana via Ritual. I discard Nether Spirit to her first ability.
He responds with T1 Bojuka Bog into Turn 3 Hierarch + Scavenging Ooze.
I haven't got any removal in my hand and in the top 3, but a second Liliana.
On my 4th turn I have got 3 lands in play and a Liliana with 6 counters in play and i decide to activate Top, although i knew that the top 2 cards weren't a removal spell or a land.
The third from the top wasn't one either, so I couldn't ultimate Liliana and play another one afterwards to remove his second creature, too.
So I used Liliana's Sac ability(4 counters left). In his next turn, he pumped Scavenging Ooze to 4/4 and played Windswept Heath and killed Liliana.
When I played my second Liliana, he fetched a Dryad Arbor in response( which I didn't think of) to her sac ability.
I still got control of the game with the Culling Scales Sensei soft lock, but he topdecked Pridemage soon and then bomb after bomb.
Very unlucky series of events, but it could still have turned out in another way if I had played pefectly.

In round 3 i was paired against Goblins. In game 1 he was manascrewed for about 5 turns but I couldn't find a win condition for about 10 turns....I won this game however after about 20 min.
He won a long Game 2 which he grinded out with Ringleaders.
It wasn't much time left for Game 3 so we decided that the player that would have probably won would get the win because a draw wouldn't get us anywhere.
At the end of game 3 I had stabilized at 3 life with an Engineered Plague and the Culling Scales Sensei soft lock, a Dismember in my hand and a Factory in play together with 3 other lands.
He claimed that he could have won the game as well with a Warchief, a Piledriver and a Ringleader in hand and 3 lands in play(1 Rishadan Port) but I think my chances for the win were much higher than his. Result: Draw

In Round 5 I got bashed (by a U/w Stoneforge Deck) by 3 Snapcastermages in G1 and as well in G2 in which I didn't see any Plagues :(. Nothing I could do here...

[clavio]

Hi everyone. It's a bummer how much the new Liliana costs. What do you all think about playing a build that does poorly against fast aggro but pretty much beats the hell out of everything else? I think it might be worth trying at the moment.

Also I think that dark confidant might be worth running. I really don't think that the life loss is too big of a deal since he can very often win the game just by staying alive.

Also obligatory you all are still underrating the rack.

[clavio]

Totally in love with confidant.

What do you think is better at this point, go for throat or diabolic edict?

[Koby]

Totally in love with confidant.

What do you think is better at this point, go for throat or diabolic edict?

Ghastly Demise.

[clavio]

What is everyone sideboarding against merfolk these days?

[Jin15]

Hey everyone!
I've been wanting to play a Pox deck for years now, but it wasn't until the release of Liliana of the Veil in Innistrad that I finally said to myself, "That's it self, you have to build this deck now!" :tongue:

So I finally got off my backside and came up with half a dozen different potential Pox lists and started testing them against established decks. After quite a bit of tweaking and tuning and conversing with some long time Pox players here's the list I settled on...

==========
Legacy - Pox
==========
[3 Planeswalkers]
3 Liliana of the Veil

[7 Creatures]
4 Bloodghast
2 Tombstalker
1 Nether Spirit

[24 Spells]
4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox

[4 Artifacts]
4 The Rack

[22 Lands]
4 Mishra’s Factory
18 Swamp

~~~~~~~
Sideboard
~~~~~~~
3 Null Rod
3 Spinning Darkness
2 Syphon Life
3 Infest
4 Leyline of the Void


It's fairly basic compared to a lot of the popular lists right now (note the lack of Mox Diamond, Crucible of Worlds, and Wasteland). Rather than go for the slower more controlling mana denial and late game card advantage plan employed in Crucible builds I decided to take a more aggro route. My list runs a total of 15 threats, which is more so than most Pox decks, and is primarily focused on tempo rather than card advantage, employing Dark Ritual to this end. The goal here being to empty your opponent's hand as fast as possible (which due to the nature of Pox tends to empty yours in the process as well) and then knock their life down to 0 with a couple threats before they can recover. The deck still plays very well without Crucible, you just have to play it a little differently. A faster pace and a higher number of threats allows a Pox build like mine to get the job done quite well without a card advantage engine like Crucible IMHO.

I've been really happy with how the main deck plays so far although I do think my sideboard plan needs a bit of work. I'm not too fond of Spinning Darkness due poor synergy with Tombstalker and I'd like to find something else to put in instead for the Zoo matchup. In any case, once I get the sideboard all figured out I'm really looking forward to getting in some good tournament time with this deck. It's one of the most fun decks I've played in quite sometime and is just plain brutal on the opponent. ^_^


Oh, and Clavio, for Merfolk I've been going -1 Pox, -2 Innocent Blood and +3 Infest. It's not an ideal board plan, as Infest isn't effective at all once they get 2 lords out, but my meta doesn't have a whole lot of Merfolk in it so I haven't majorly dedicated sideboard space to that matchup. If you see a lot of Merfolk in your meta (or any large number of Aether Vial decks really) I'd suggest trying out a few Ratchet Bomb in the board.

[zathe922]

Try Perish in the sideboard, its great against zoo and all those green/white decks that are popular right now.
About your list, i dont really like that nether spirit with all those other creatures.

i would probably remove it for a 1-off Sensei's Divining Top. some fetch lands would be nice as well.

[clavio]

I like your build alot Jin. To be honest though, after testing the hell out of pox the past two months I've been really underwhelmed with Liliana.

Good call on 4 racks. I would never leave home with less than 3.

My build right now that I'm probably going to play on Saturday:

New Age Retro Hippie Pox
12-13 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
3-4 Wasteland
4 Urborg tomb....

3 Nether Spirit (Blocking is relevant imo)

4 The Rack
2 Cursed Scroll (Seems crappy, but the fact that it can pick off Insectile Aberrations and some Merfolks makes it kind of ok again. Otherwise I would absolutely run something like Syphon Life.)
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Innocent Blood
4 Pox
4 SmallPox
4 Duress/Thoutseize....but probably Duress.
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach

SB something like....
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Extirpate
Perish/Spinning Darknes/Infest/Gate to Phyrexia?(no)/Engineered plague/Ensnaring Bridge/Hypnotic Specter?!?!/Oppression!?!?!?
---------

I don't have a fast clock but the only time It really mattered was against shit like High Tide. I don't miss crucible.

[Hulk]

What is everyone sideboarding against merfolk these days?

Mono blacks best choice is engineered plague. One engineered plague down doesn't stop them in there tracks, but it helps. Two will generally shut them down assuming they don't have enough lords out to keep going(if they did, you probably have all ready lost).

If you are splashing white your could run Ghostly Prison.

[clavio]

I think I'm going to go with 4 Leyline 4 Extirpate 4 Engineered Plague 3 Infest.


Edit: Perish or infest. I'm on the fence.

Edit2: Going with Infest. There isn't alot of zoo and I think it's a favorable matchup anyways (especially compared to Mefolk). Also people love Goblins. Also it can kill pretty much every creature in those Gw decks except Knight of the Reliquary, things that carry equipment and Goyf (Although I might want extirpate instead. I don't know.). Also it's going to be excellent when I can legitimately board in 15 cards against DREDGE.

[Dragon_mage]

Hi there, I posted into the Eva Green post and they told me that you could help me guys :smile:

I was testing this decklist triying to get the optimus version, I play a version with splash to Green for play LftL and Goyf, including a Sylvan library also... here is my decklist:

Creatures (14)
4 Bloodghast
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Abyssal Persecutor

Other (23)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Smallpox
2 Life from the Loam
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Go for the Throat
2 Darkblast
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Sylvan Library

Land (23)
2 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacumbs
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Bayou
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Forest
2 Swamp

I play a dakmor salvage 'cause it helps with the smallpox effect, discarding or sacrificing a land, also make the bloodghast better in the case we don't have land in hand but it is the Gyard :smile:

I only have two doubt, the first one is that I wanna include a Phyrexian Tower into my manabase to help me with the task of put the abyssal out of the field but I don't know what land to cut off, and the second one is my sideboard which looks like this, so far:

4 Surgical Extraction
4 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed

I don't know if it would be better include some perish instead the pernicious deed and if include some chokes... I will be waiting for your comments and/or critics :cool:

regards

[zathe922]

I would cut 1 Urborg for the Phyrexian Tower.

And the sideboard is a meta call, if you are facing a lot of green decks, its probably better than the deeds. Im not sure if i would play those surgicals, extirpate is way better when you play a black deck, i would also play some crypts since you sometimes wants to be able to remove whole graveyards. Bojuka bog would also be a nice card to run in the deck.

[zathe922]

You dont need the chimeric idols remove them and play 2 more wastelands, Smallpox is better than "Bigpox" and you need some removal, like innocent blood.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

dragonryder
let me tell you how you will lose most of your matches.
against one inkmoth nexus. guaranteed every time.
Small pox is in no way better than Pox.
None of the Idol creatures are any good. they seem good, but they are too slow, and cost too much to cast against everything else that is out there.

You have no hand disruption beyond Pox, and Hymn, you need Thoughsieze, Duress, or IOK I prefer IOK and Duress.

crucible always seems important to the new Pox player, I promise you it is not.
I have been playing Pox almost since it was printed, and I can almost always cast a firggin Corrupt at least once in every match.
Crucible is a waste of a three spot. You want an honest opinion?
Ensnaring Bridge, is amazing. most decks have a creature win condition. of they cannot attack, they cannot win.

also, you need a way to get rid of Planeswalkers if you are not going to run any dependable discard. even though I believe Hymn is one of the best discard cards printed, it is not as reliable as just looking through your opponents hand and choosing.

I am alone, in this, but Liliana, is not that great of a Pox card. She is decent, but no reason to start torturing yourself with Pox now.

Raven's Crime is an amazing Pox card. people want a reason to start playing Pox? Raven's Crime. it seems silly and useless. it is not. almost over powered.

[Kich867]

dragonryder
let me tell you how you will lose most of your matches.
against one inkmoth nexus. guaranteed every time.
Small pox is in no way better than Pox.
None of the Idol creatures are any good. they seem good, but they are too slow, and cost too much to cast against everything else that is out there.

You have no hand disruption beyond Pox, and Hymn, you need Thoughsieze, Duress, or IOK I prefer IOK and Duress.

crucible always seems important to the new Pox player, I promise you it is not.
I have been playing Pox almost since it was printed, and I can almost always cast a firggin Corrupt at least once in every match.
Crucible is a waste of a three spot. You want an honest opinion?
Ensnaring Bridge, is amazing. most decks have a creature win condition. of they cannot attack, they cannot win.

also, you need a way to get rid of Planeswalkers if you are not going to run any dependable discard. even though I believe Hymn is one of the best discard cards printed, it is not as reliable as just looking through your opponents hand and choosing.

I am alone, in this, but Liliana, is not that great of a Pox card. She is decent, but no reason to start torturing yourself with Pox now.

Raven's Crime is an amazing Pox card. people want a reason to start playing Pox? Raven's Crime. it seems silly and useless. it is not. almost over powered.

BTW, what exactly do you win with? Syphon Life?

[clavio]

dragonryder
let me tell you how you will lose most of your matches.
against one inkmoth nexus. guaranteed every time.
Small pox is in no way better than Pox.
None of the Idol creatures are any good. they seem good, but they are too slow, and cost too much to cast against everything else that is out there.

You have no hand disruption beyond Pox, and Hymn, you need Thoughsieze, Duress, or IOK I prefer IOK and Duress.

crucible always seems important to the new Pox player, I promise you it is not.
I have been playing Pox almost since it was printed, and I can almost always cast a firggin Corrupt at least once in every match.
Crucible is a waste of a three spot. You want an honest opinion?
Ensnaring Bridge, is amazing. most decks have a creature win condition. of they cannot attack, they cannot win.

also, you need a way to get rid of Planeswalkers if you are not going to run any dependable discard. even though I believe Hymn is one of the best discard cards printed, it is not as reliable as just looking through your opponents hand and choosing.

I am alone, in this, but Liliana, is not that great of a Pox card. She is decent, but no reason to start torturing yourself with Pox now.

Raven's Crime is an amazing Pox card. people want a reason to start playing Pox? Raven's Crime. it seems silly and useless. it is not. almost over powered.

I agree with almost all of this. I would love to see your list.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

I haven't played a few months, playing Pox is like having full time dementia and insomnia. I traded away most of my Pox win conditions to get Ooze combo stuff.

I used to use Bloodghast and Nether Traitor, as my main creatures. they are easy to get under a bridge. even though bloodghast usually gets STP'd or just blocked by a bigger creature.

anymore I really like bump in the night. the problem with Pox, is there is always a time in every game where your opponent is at 6, you can no longer do any damage because he or she has several creatures out, but they cannot attack you because of your bridge. Bump in the Night seems like a decent try.

I have a 20+ man tourney coming up in a few days and I think this is what I am going to run with.

the main deck is this

4 duress
4 IOK
3 ensnaring bridge
4 dark ritual
4 hymn to tourach
2 zombie infestation
2 reanimate
4 extirpate
4 geth's verdict
17 swamps

TWO SIDEBOARDS (i will obviously have to start with one of them as the main deck.
I play transformer

3 Raven's Crime
4 Pox
4 Underworld Dreams
4 Bump in the Night

2 exhume
1 Triskelion
1 Phyrexian Devourer
3 Necrotic Ooze
3 Deesech the Queen
4 Buried Alive
1 Reanimate

Underworld Dreams is a decent win in Legacy. a lot of people go straight to the "slowness of it" but in, 3 turns I can have my opponent at less than 9 life. also, at that point, I can have a total lock against aggro, and creature decks.

9 turns, or even less with Bump in the Night goes by very quickly.
With Raven's Crime I would seriously consider using The Rack, I have a friend who runs a Rack, Death Shadow win condition, and he does decent.
again with Pox slow win conditions are okay (to a point) discard has the best lock, with the right pieces, and like I said two Poxes (which happens almost every game) your life total is 9. so is your opponent, maybe even less life because almost every deck runs 5+ fetch lands.

The Ooze combo will most likely be taken out. It needs more cards than 15 to be effective, but I just want to try it once (still have not gotten to a tournament since getting the combo) and I refuse to play any other deck but Pox, and the occasional Affinity.

I stick with Affinity because I once played in a sealed tournament, and built an affinity an won the tourney. It only had three affinity cards, but those Myr enforcers with a bunch of junk were amazing back in the days of mirrodin. I then built it for type two and play it when Pox just drives me crazy.

The reason I say playing Pox is like having dementia, and Insomnia all at once is this.
the deck is awful, Wizards hates Black I am sure of it. Mono Black or any mono color not Red or Blue is awful.
Mono Black is especially awful. playing Pox is bad, you lose a lot, because there is no good win condition, and even though I think discard is the most effective control, in actuality it sucks.
so most of the time you spend trying to tweak the deck, and find new things. you go to tournaments with ideas that seem like genius level plans only to 0-x
you stay up late writing lists and scheming that you do things like add the idols, and totems thinking because they are artifacts and not inherently creatures that they wont be affected by Pox, but the truth is, they are just not effective.

there are two simple answers to Pox
1: don't play it.
2: give up on creatures. and go for control, and figure out win conditions that way.

here are some fun facts about Pox.
1: Sinkhole, is a Sinkhole. it is expensive, and worthless. it is a trap, a sinkhole is a natural trap. and that is what the card is too. a trap to get you to buy 80 dollars worth of cards, when you could just get awesome alpha dark rituals, or shit... IDK ANYTHING else.
2: nonbasic lands are not needed. why? what are they good for? i would maybe run Inkmoth Nexsus, if only to kill another friggin Inkmoth Nexus, but if that is your plan, it is just going to get wasted anyway. stick to basic, and you'll have no problems.
3: if you are only going to run one edict spell, make it Geth's Verdict. it has the same casting cost at Diabolic Edict, but also makes the opponent lose a life.
4: always go first. a lot of Pox players like to go second, because the idea for the deck is to get your opponent down on card advantage, and by going second, they start with 7, and you start with 8. I don't care, they can have 8, I want a chance to dump a card in their graveyard before they get to cast it.
5: Small Pox is in no way better than Pox. people who think that never played Pox before, and are not Pox players. a single Pox will usually get rid of two lands, two creatures, dump one card from their hand, and lose at least 5 life. Small Pox does one of each. I could care less about one creature, and land. I want the life loss thank you, that is the way you win last time I checked. get your opponent to lose 20 life before you do.
6: BEST PLAY IN MAGIC HISTORY EVER!!!!! Lay down a Swamp, tap Swamp, cast Dark Ritual, cast Pox. BEST PLAY EVER!!!!! and if I draw two Swamp, a Pox, and dark Ritual, I do that play just out of spite for Wizards of the Coast. is it a bad play, most of time, but sometimes its amazing, and your opponent never recovers.
7: the only good Mox in Legacy for Pox is Diamond.



don't look at this list, and just take me as a dump player.
because the truth is, I have played in tournaments with builds that were worse, and my list changes 100 times a week. the tournament is Tuesday, I will change it 15 times before then, and twice before the thing starts, while I am at the event.

Take me as a dump player because I have been playing Pox since Tempest. I lose more than I win, mostly (and I cannot stress this enough) mono black Pox has been bad for years. I did once beat a type one artifact deck full of power (the artifact deck that ran Tinker before it got restricted) I ran no power. won win an Underworld Dream/ ensnaring Bridge lock. he did nothing until he got to 4 life, he cast an Ensesteral recal hoping to find a win, he didn't. instead of saying go, to make him lose because he would have drawn a card for his turn, I cast a Demonic Consultation, named Pox removed two Poxes which were in my top 6 cards, I already played one, and drew to about <10 cards left, got it, cast it, won.

it is the reason I play the deck, with a Pox-Ensnaring Bridge-Underworld dreams core, I won the same way in the same tournament against the same deck (different player) with The Rack, and demonic Consultation to a Pox with the opponent being at 1 life before the Demonic cast. It was the Columbus Grand Prix back in 2003 or 2004, might have even been 2002 I cant even remember the year.
I feel I owe Pox at least that much.

also, the way I figure it, one day a card will be printed, that will make Pox great, and at that point, I will have the leg up having already been playing it. If that card is never printed, then, I still get to play a deck I love, and have fun with.... win or lose.

Its like having a bad child. yeah he or she is a terrible person, and causes you grief. you still love them though.

[ReinVos]

As others have pointed out earlier in this thread, Pox is fundamentally flawed.

It attempts to play fair in a format that has such broken cards and interactions, you're cheating yourself out of a fair shot of doing well in a tournament.

That being said, I do love the deck and now is the time to sleeve Pox up again if it's one of your pet decks.

The reason for this is the rise of threshold decks and the printing of Liliana of the Veil.

I believe Sinkhole is a fine card for Pox. If anything, it is remarkably good against combo decks. They're no longer safe to fetch for an Island to ensure cantripping mana. You're now attacking from a lot of angles. The combo player really has to play careful. It's also good against Zoo decks. You can cut them from a color if they're not careful. It's also good Spell Snare bait because it's rather annoying getting your land destroyed. A follow up with Hymn to Tourach or Smallpox can be nice then.

The best Edict spell is Innocent Blood. Not Diabolic Edict or Geth's Verdict. The one mana is crucial for keeping up on the draw. If you don't answer that turn 1 Wild Nacatl it will be joined by a Tarmogoyf or Qasali Pridemage next turn. And because pox effects can only deal with one creature at a time, you are already dead. They will easily be able to keep dropping critters while you're taking 3 or 4 a turn.

Dark Ritual is useless in this deck. It goes against everything Pox is trying to do.

Liliana of the Veil is awesome in this deck.

I would play something like this:

4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Chimeric Idol
2 Pox

4 Tombstalker
4 Bloodghast

23 Swamp

Still a fan of Chimeric Idol. A three mana 3/3 with shroud and protection from sac is pretty good. With clever use of him you can make sure the opponent never gets to point a Swords or Bolt at him (Go for the Throat? Hehe). Also, I want enough threats to actually close out a game. As you can see this build is a bit more tempo oriented. Ideally it tries to destroy the opponent's resources while binning a ghast in the meantime. Then follow up with a stalker and start beating face. If there's no threat at your disposal yet, try to stick a Liliana. This will keep the opponent under pressure and stalls the game out until you find a finisher. As you can see, Sinkhole is crucial in the plan 1, 2, 3 plan.

T1: Inquisition (on play/draw) or Innocent Blood (on draw)
T2: Sinkhole, Hymn or Smallpox
T3: (Small)pox, Liliana or Idol
T4: Either land a Tombstalker, Pox away and start crashing in with idol (+ghast) or disrupt more with Liliana.

This could actually lead to a good number of wins. It's a focused plan and works well against such decks as Canadian Threshold or Zoo. It's nice how Idols are pretty big against Zoo. Between disrupting their mana base to shrink cats and apes, you can attack the yard postboard (we usually only really have sorceries and lands, making goyf 2/3) so that your Idol fights off Goyfs. That's why I like Idol much better than Nether Spirit. It's a good beater while avoiding the symmetry of Pox in a clever way. Liliana also helps out as you can force them to discard the removal before you animate your turtle.

The reason Nether Spirit sucks is because Pox is fundamentally too weak to try and play the control role. It's impossible, our topdecks are way worse and the powerlevel of the cards aren't sufficient to keep up. Spirits are 2/2 weenies that can't get shit done. All they do is stall out. Stalling is the equivalent of giving up in this deck.

No, the power of the deck lies in it's early disruption. It's the best you can ask for. Targeted discard, random discard, blowing up lands, blowing up everything. There's not much left except dropping a Liliana or Stalker and ride it to a win. If you give too much time to recover, or rather too much topdecks, other decks will catch up and put you away easily.

Screw Wasteland. Sinkholes replace them. You need your land drops so it's better to pay two mana for destroying a land than trading lands. It helps you landing at least two devastating effects before landing a threat, all in four turns. No mana base was better than the one I started out with, which was all Swamps. It's really inconvenient to weaken your own mana base to attack their's twice as much. The deck is much better equipped to spend BB to a destroy a land, than to mess up your mana base for it. The thing about Sinkhole is getting ahead on lands, Wasteland doesn't help you do that. Also, this may come as a surprise but for a deck that attacks resources so much, this deck can't stand having hiccups along the way itself. Wasteland is an example of that. Sinkhole works much smoother in the curve (especially now with Liliana).

My list is as good as any list. But I wanted to talk about my personal preferences and my findings while playing this deck for a long time.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

ReinVos
I have played your exact list. with the exception of Liliana, as she was not a card when I ran the deck.
you are right, your list is no worse than any other Pox list. the problem is, creature/aggro/tempo Pox doesn't work. Your list may, because you only play two Pox, and honestly, at that point, just take out Pox all together.

as for Dark Ritual being no good.
I understand this, because Pox wants to get each player in top deck mode, and a top decked Dark Ritual is usually a bad thing.
But
what are you going to do on turn four or five, when you need to cast a Pox, or an innocent blood and a Stalker? or a Hymn, and a Duress, or anything that cost more than one black mana, and you only have a single swamp, or two in play?
Dark Ritual was made for this deck. actually, Dark ritual came out first, Pox was made for Dark Ritual.
A top decked Dark Ritual is a good thing in those situations, and those situations happen all the time.

I have rarely lost a game because I Poxed with one mana in play and had to sac it. I lose when I have five or six mana in play.

I like your list, I like creature Pox, I just cant get it to work.

your deck only has ten creature removal spells. most decks run, as many creatures, merfolk, zoo, and a select other aggro decks run way more. they will over run your deck, because those decks also run removal, and counters. your creatures will all get STP'd, Oblivion Ringed, Bolted, or just countered. Bloodghast doesn't worry about counter, or Bolt, but it sire does suck to get it STP'd.

Liliana disrupt is with her ability to kill a creature, every other turn. Her end all ability is horrible. I like the ability to make an opponent discard every turn, but I have a decent time with Raven's Crime and all the other discard spells that I do not need her, no one does.

I only play with 17 Swamp, I do not understand, how I am the only player in Magic history to get flooded with Mana, playing 17, I cannot imagine what it would be like to run more than 20, I never, have ever, had mana problems. I also Pox more than the average player. as I believe there is never a bad time to play the card.

why not run Death's Shadow, it gets big at your most vulnerable time.

I also agree with you about Innocent Blood, to a point. It is all about the style of play. I like the one mana cost, and I don't play creatures so I could care less about sacrificing my own. but I am willing to pay the extra one black mana, to have the instant speed of Geth's or Diabolic.

I am interested in hearing a tournament report for this list, if you wouldn't mind posting something the next time you pilot it in a tourney.

[Cacks]

Hi All, I used to play pox when it was good in extended (in the academy period - it was about the only deck that actually had a reasonable match up with academy). I'd not suggest it in any real tournament in legacy, but it is a blast to play.

One card that I think you are missing is cursed scroll. It was always a mainstay, since you rapidly empty your hand and are looking for things to do with your mana (typically, conveniently, having 3 in play). It mops up endless streams of snapcasters, aberations, Bobs, grim lavamancers, etc leaving the edict effects for the big guys; not to mention taking chunks out of planeswalkers and speeding up your clock.

I'd suggest you give it a whirl - there is a reason that it was once the most expensive card in extended!

Also I am a fan of chrome mox over ritual. Both are, in essence, -1 card advantage, but the mox lives through pox.

[P.S.]

I have not played Legacy in awhile. I stopped playing when Mental Misstep was everywhere. That is no longer an issue. I am thinking about making Pox my deck of choice. Reid Duke was instrumental in that decision but I have been trying to champion Smallpox for months, even before it was reprinted, because it eats a lot of decks in Legacy right now.

This thread, especially the last few pages, has been somewhat enlightening. After seeing the list that Duke had posted on SCG, there were a few cards that I was just not a fan of. I also saw a lack of The Rack and Ensnaring Bridge, both of which I like a lot. I also think that I like Mox Diamond.

The Underworld Dreams idea posted on this last page was interesting too.

So I am going to work with some friends, do some testing and try to come up with a list that I am happy with. There are a lot of suggested cards that I am not sold on, such as Chimeric Idol or Tombstalker, but we'll see.

[Jin15]

I'll agree with iamfrightenedtoo's feeling that playing Pox is like having dementia and insomnia at the same time, but fortunately for me this fits nicely since I've spent most of my life as an insomniac and anyone who knows me will tell you I'm more than a little bit crazy :laugh:
Actually, outwardly I'm a very calm and laid back person who just has eons worth of repressed rage and extremely sadistic desires towards my fellow Magic players (especially the Blue mages) and Pox gives me a healthy outlet for those feelings. Killing everyone and everything and inflicting as much suffering as possible on your opponent over the course of a friendly game of Magic can be very therapeutic.
There's few things I enjoy more when playing Magic than that utterly broken look your opponent gets on their face when you've made them discard their whole hand, killed all their creatures, and laid waste to their manabase by turn 4. Seeing their confidence in their deck crumble before your eyes and the resulting look that crosses their face when they've been broken is satisfying beyond words. I think that's the best reason to play Pox :smile:


But anyyyyyhoo... It's been quite interesting and informative seeing all the different opinions about various cards over the past few pages, and it really seems like the most majorly contested card in Pox has got to Dark Ritual. It does carry an element of inherent card disadvantage, but the power plays it offers you are often well worth the disadvantage IMHO.

So for those who think Dark Ritual doesn't belong in our deck, I ask you this...
Have you ever Dark Rit'ed out a Liliana of the Veil on turn 1 on the play?
Have you ever gone Dark Rit - Inquisition of Kozilek - Hymn to Tourach on turn 1?
Have you ever been mana screwed due to your own Pox effects and just really needed to get out that 2 or 3 CMC card?
Has game 2/3 graveyard hate ever left you short on mana to power out that Tombstalker?

I you answered yes to any of the above, you should have some understanding of why I feel Dark Ritual is excellent in Pox. It enables some crazy tempo plays, can pull you out of a mana screw, and worst case scenario it's a card you can pitch to Pox/Smallpox/Liliana if it's no longer needed. Admittedly though more aggressive takes on Pox will make better use of it. If your game plan is some kind of late game prison strategy it might not work nearly as well as in lists packed with lots of threats that can apply pressure early on. Dark Ritual is a pure tempo card and therefore will be most effective in a tempo based strategy, where as Mox Diamond is probably much better suited to the more prison centric variations of Pox with Wasteland, Crucible of Worlds, and the like.
I will say though that I'm not on board with frightened's suggestion of going Turn 1 Dark Rit - Pox. I know he's been playing this deck quite a bit longer than me, but I can safely say that I've never won a single game from doing this and in most cases it's pure suicide unless you've got a couple of Bloodghasts in hand and land to spare (although I would consider doing it on the draw if the opponent had a turn 1 Goblin Lackey and I had no other means of killing it).

In regards to Liliana, I'm astonished that there are some who feel she doesn't belong in the deck (especially if you enjoy playing Raven's Crime). What if I told you that Wizards printed a Raven's Crime that you could pitch not just land but any card to, could make your opponent sacrifice creatures as well, and only had to invest mana in once instead of every turn? That would be totally awesome right? I give you Liliana of the Veil.

I do dig iamfrightenedtoo's suggestion of Ensnaring Bridge though. In my experience the only types of decks Pox really struggles in dealing with (even post board) is decks that spit out 1 or 2 creatures every turn for the first 4 turns. Zoo is pretty much the nightmare matchup for me and Affinity is sketchy at best until I bring in the 3x Null Rod from my sideboard. Pox can take on Junk, RUG, Bant, U/W Stoneforge, and all those other aggro control decks that are so popular right now all day long and come out on top. But when the opponent brings a really aggro deck to the table that's when the trouble starts. Decks like Goblins and Elves can be easily answered with a grip of Infest from the board and Affinity just folds to Null Rod, but Zoo is causing me nothing but troubles. At this point my best answer for them has been Ratchet Bomb, but that's still pretty sub-optimal due to it's slow speed and only works well against the Sligh builds of Zoo that are almost entirely 1 drops and Tarmogoyf.
Fortunately Ratchet Bomb serves other purposes and tends to be particularly effective against Merfolk (but that matchup is already pretty good without it) and absolutely wrecks Enchantress, but isn't quite what I'm looking for against Zoo. So I may have to find some board space to see if I can give a few Ensnaring Bridge a try ^_^

[kombatkiwi]

I entered a tournament with pox last saturday
Pox was the first legacy deck I made because its low-budget nature made it attractive
Now cards are easy for me to come by so I wanted to give it a go with some better options
I wasn't able to get the exact list I wanted but this is what I ended up using

4 Liliana
4 Hymn
3 Inquisition
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Nether Spirit
2 Tombstalker
4 The Rack
2 Crucible
4 Smallpox
3 Pox
3 Innocent Blood
1 Ravens Crime

4 Mishras Factory
20 Swamp

SB
2 Duress
3 Dystopia
1 Innocent Blood
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Dark Ritual
2 Go for the Throat

At the last minute as I was writing my decklist waiting at the stop for the (late) bus I decided to cut wastelands for factories. With the rack as my main win condition it didn't make sense for my opponents to have cards stranded in their hand - trying to attack their hand and manabase just seemed unnecessarily greedy.

I didn't expect to go amazingly, and guess what, I didn't (2-2-1) but I learned a lot and I just wanted to share some of it.
For the record
Junk: Win
Reanimator: Lose
Casual Bant Deck That Was Almost Modern Legal Except For I Think Swords To Plowshares Sigh: Lose (Got blown out by Wilt Leaf Liege in game two AND three)
A controlish build of Eva Green: Draw
Armageddon Stax: Win

Liliana is easily the best card in the deck. With all the removal (IBlood, Smallpox) it is rare that the opponent has more than one creature on the board. Usually, they don't have many cards in hand either, due to your discard spells. Therefore, with an active liliana, your opponents turn goes like this:
a) They draw a land and play it: you don't even care
b) They draw a creature and play it: Liliana eats it
c) They draw a card they can't play or don't want to: Liliana discards it
The one problem with Liliana is that it doesn't actually win the game but it stalls your opopnent out so much that one of your threats will eventually be able to grind out a win. The card is absolutely amazing and the deck feels completely different with its inclusion.

The most notable thing Liliana did for me was against a stax player where half of his permanents (Trinisphere, Chalice) didn't let The Rack resolve and the other half (Port, Ensnaring Bridge) didn't let Mishra's Factory attack. That was the only time I used Liliana's ultimate the entire day but the first 2 abilities really are that big of a deal and I would still play 4 copies of this card for sure if it didn't even have the ultimate.
Don't play less than 4 copies, if you end up drawing 2 copies you can easily just discard the spare one.

I was always able to get quite a lot of value out of crucible whenever I drew it but a lot of the time it was unnecessary - like one of the above posters said, in many games I had enough mana to cast a Corrupt, so the extra lands were unnecessary. The only times it was valuable was when I was able to recur dead Mishra's Factories which allowed me to win the game.

Tombstalker was fine but sometimes it was awkward when my own removal spells killed it and because you can't deploy it in the early turns it often ended up being discarded to Liliana.

Nether spirit is always amazing. I would always play it over bloodghast because the fact that you can block is so important. Due to the attrition war created by your strategy often you will both be topdecking and you want to be able to stall out their Knight or Goyf while you find an answer: you aren't going to be racing either of those with a bloodghast.
The fact that it gets discarded by Lilliana/smallpox is just gravy
In one of the games I forgot to recur it for a couple of turns and after the match my opponent complimented me for successfully being able to play around Swords to Plowshares :P

Raven's Crime is amazing with The Rack. The card is just absurd. It's Liliana's +1 effect. If I wasn't using The Rack I would probably not think that it was worth it but if you are trying to win with The Rack it is definitely MVP and I would main 2.

I had never used Mishras Factory before because the budget version played Chimeric Idol but they were very good.

24 Lands though is just way too many. I flooded out almost every game and always sided out lands

One problem with trying to win with the rack is that loam decks just rape you in the bumhole, hence the SB surgical extraction. I played against 2 loam decks, bet one and drew to the other. Life from the Loam is the main reason why I do not like using The Rack as the main win condition.

The SB was mainly more removal for creature decks (removal is better than discard against a creature deck of course because you make them use mana on the spell and you can react to the creature if you draw the spell later on), more discard for combo decks, and gravehate for graveyard decks.

3 Pox was too much and I sided one out every game for the more specific hate in the sideboard. If I played again with this deck I would only main 2.

The dystopias only went in for one match: in the game where I drew it, he was able to deal a lot of damage to me very quickly so I was unable to pay for the cumulative upkeep after only one or 2 turns. I still think it's a useful card which warrants testing. It pretty much directly conflicts with perish for a sideboard slot so this should always be considered.

Now I want to talk about Reid Duke's Pox deck which he used to come to a 3rd place finish in the Starcitygames invitational:

//Mono Black Pox, by Reid Duke
//Downloaded from StarCityGames.com
13 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Pox
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nether Void
2 Nether Spirit
3 Innocent Blood
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Wasteland
3 Cursed Scroll
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual
1 Spinning Darkness

// Sideboard:
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 The Abyss
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 2 Spinning Darkness


Now this guy is not bad which is clear by his finish at the event, MOCS etc. Not many good players have ever taken pox to a serious event such as this and seeing as he did so well with it, it would be good to seriously consider his build of the deck and at least give it a go. I just want to talk about the way he has built his deck and how I believe there is a lot of synergy in its design.

Anybody who has played with liliana will wonder if there is any way that they can ramp it out on turn 1. The earlier you can start building up counters on it the more effective it is at dealing with opposing creature threats while not coming into burn range or having to minus-2 with only 2 counters on it. Dark Ritual is the obvious choice for this. A lot of people try Dark Ritual in pox, love the god-draws when you go turn 1 Hymn + something, but then get rid of it for generally being too inconsistent. I think it is now correct to play Dark Ritual in Pox, because turn 1 Hymn or turn 1 Liliana is just such a serious beating on the opponent.
Dark Ritual means you run out of in-hand cards faster which makes the +1 of Liliana much stronger because there is a greater chance of the opponent having some cards and you having none.

After including Dark Ritual in the deck, you probably want another 2 or 3 drop spell to play off it to consistently have more explosive openings (everybody knows that the turn 1 smallpox or turn 1 pox is a terrible play). Reid decided to go with Sinkhole. Just like Dark Ritual, in previous versions of the deck that liked to win through The Rack, sinkhole was not very good, because attacking both their hand and their manabase was too greedy and you ended up having an opponent with no lands and a rack that did nothing or an insipid mix of both types of spell that did not end up having a serious disruptive effect on the opponent.
With liliana, you have a repeatable discard threat. Often, you +1 Liliana with no cards in the opponents hand, which is fine, but sometimes YOU will have a card in hand, and the opponent does not, which is an awful feeling. By including land destruction in a Liliana deck, you delay the casting of the opponents threats and give Liliana more time to grind away at their hand.
As one of the other posters in this thread pointed out it is also not too bad against combo.

Also, Reid has done away with the popular Rack, and decided to play Cursed Scroll instead. After my tournament last weekend, I can wholeheartedly agree with this decision. The randomness of the ability is almost never a factor as you run out of in-hand cards very quickly. What this means is that you have a 1-Mana artifact with the ability 3,T: Shock. The 3 mana cost is usually moot as you floot out a lot and with Liliana keeping everybody locked down and playing a deck whose main function is to put both players in topdeck mode, you often don't have anything else to spend your mana on. Now cursed scroll is basically:

1 - Artifact
T: Shock

If there really was a 1 mana artifact with T: opponent loses 2 life then it would almost certainly see play over the rack. But you can go one better than that, and have a 1 mana artifact with T: Shock
Here is what you can shock
Stoneforge
Fishies
Lavamancer
Delver
Snapcaster
Goblins
Hierarch
Mother of Runes
Heaps of other GW shit like pridemage and teeg and so on
Elves
Quite a lot of what affinity plays
Goblin Guide
Clique
Spellstutter

Here is what Karsten Kotter says about the card in his latest SCG article

Finally, there's another way to beat diverse strategies—by figuring out which base they haven't covered and giving yourself a way to attack there. Reid Duke's Cursed Scrolls received a lot of commentary in the coverage of the Invitational for exactly that reason. The U/R Delver deck doesn't have a single creature that will live through an active Cursed Scroll and has no way to get rid of it. Essentially, just by playing a Cursed Scroll, you give yourself absolute inevitability. If they win, it's going to have to be early so if the rest of your deck will keep them from doing so, things are looking good.

It does seem very good
You wouldn't play 4 because if you have 2 in play finding the mana to activate both is a bit unreliable.

One thing that I find odd looking at Reids deck is the fact that he plays so many lands (25). Playing this deck I found mana flood to be quite a serious problem and in this deck the only way to really mitigate that issue is that you can use the mana for cursed scroll activations.
The other way of looking at it is that wasteland is a spell, in a way, so perhaps this problem is not as bad as I think it is.
There's no downside to playing 4 Urborgs as if you have multiples you will end up discarding them for Smallpox or Liliana. The fact it is nonbasic is irrelevant as opponents will be targeting your Mishra's Factories.

The other thing I found strange is the decision to play IoK over thoughtseize, particularly because he is playing Dark Ritual

Imagine that you are on the draw against this pox deck (g2 even so you know what's going on). You have FoW and a blue card, the pox player leads with Dark Ritual. You can:
a) FoW the ritual and be down a card
b) Wait and see what he plays, if it's a Liliana you counter that and you made a 2 for 2 trade, which is still what the pox deck wants to be doing
c) Wait and see what he plays, and have your FoW taken by a discard spell then the other 2 mana spent on a Hymn or something

Except you can't have C if you're playing Inquisition over Thoughtseize

I don't really have much to say with regards to his bullets (Pox, NVoid, Spinning Darkness) as I haven't given them a go before (except Pox of course). If I tried them and didn't like them I would just cut them for more 1-mana discard spells (Thoughtseize or Raven's Crime). Nether Void seems like a total blowout if it resolves and you always have Dark Ritual to make sure you get the mana for it.

He kept Nether Spirit because the card is fantastic but he got rid of tombstalker completely which is probably correct because it just doesn't have a lot of synergy with the rest of the deck. (The symetrical edicts and the nether spirits)

Some people might say "Oh, well, this isn't even a pox deck, he's only got one copy of Pox". This is because Liliana pretty much replaces pox. Liliana does usually what pox does only in the most clutch of situations, which is absolutely rape every last one of your opponent's cards. Liliana is almost a strictly better version of the card pox.

In the SB he has extirpate instead of surgical extraction, perish instead of Dystopia, Spinning Darkness and the Abyss instead of Go for the Throat but the philosophy behind its build is quite similar to the one I made and I agree that sideboarding in that way is very effective.

The 4 Engineered Plague is definitely needed against goblins which otherwise is an extremely bad matchup and Merfolk and Elves are very popular too so you have additional hate for those decks.
With dark ritual you can play it on turn 1 which gives you additional power for those matchups (criticism of plague against fish often comes down to the fact that when you land a plague they often negate it by already having a lord out.)

I'm going to test this build tomorrow and ill let you guys know how it goes.

Here are the links to related SCG Material about the deck

Karstens Article
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23278_Hating_NonLinear_Strategies.html

Feature match where Reid gets pwned, unfortunately
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/round_13_alex_bertoncini_vs_re.html

Deck Tech Interview
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_monoblack_pox_with_r.html


For some people I may be preaching to the converted but there are others in this thread who even deny that liliana is a good card.

For the record, I would never ever play either mox in this deck
I don't understand how ReinVos you think that pox can't play the control role
You think that the success of the deck is its early disruption
Sure
But after you've disrupted the opponents early game, you then land liliana or cursed scroll and lock it up
You don't play like Nantuko Shade and try and race the opponent

You say the opponent will have better topdecks than you
Well sure
But if you have liliana (or even cursed scroll sometimes) then it doesn't matter AT ALL what they topdeck because you're just going to get rid of it regardless
And then
Ping goes the cursed scroll
Ping goes the nether spirit
Ping goes the mishras factory
The deck is one of the most controlling I have ever played, it's like MonoB Landstill or something.
You even say "drop a Liliana and ride it to the win!" How is that not a control deck? You need something to win the game for you because Liliana isn't going to get there on its own unless they actually cast Lich and you ult it away. Nether spirit is perfect for this.

I agree with you that innocent blood is the best edict spell, and I used to agree with your views on wasteland but now I think that I can work if you treat it as a spell and play lots of lands to compensate for that.

Adding my 2c to some more of the discussion in this thread

Death's Shadow is almost strictly worse than tombstalker
Underworld Dreams is worse than cursed scroll (slower, can't kill dudes) and PROBABLY worse than the rack but it's an interesting idea for sure
Always on the play of course because you want to hit them with a discard spell

Yeah if you want to debate any other card I'm keen for a discussion because I really like this deck and I want to see it do well

[P.S.]

I messaged Reid Duke and asked him why he didn't play any copies of The Rack. Unfortunately, he never responded. :frown:

We can speculate about why, obviously, and even from a common sense perspective, we could brainstorm logically why, but I would have rather just heard it from his side, you know? Oh well.

I'm not super-sold on his build. Too many 1-ofs for my liking. I would cut Spinning Darkness, The Abyss & Nether Void altogether...and that's coming from someone that loves Nether Void. I just don't like the inconsistencies here. Reading his deck summary he even kind of hinted at them just being in the deck because he's old school and wanted to wax nostalgic. I've been playing since 1994, so I understand...but they just don't fit.

We all seem to have a pretty solid base deck but I would like to champion Duke's mana base. 25 land might seem like a lot but the biggest difference is that he always wants three mana sources in play so he can activate Cursed Scroll. His deck doesn't even really play like a Pox deck a lot of the time it feels. It's more like Mono-Black Control if you play it. Sure, it has 4x copy of Smallpox, but that is just like getting hit with a Wasteland, really (in regard to you losing a land I mean). The singleton copy of Pox makes it so you hardly ever even see it. A lot of games you'll play you'll see that you have enough mana sources to activate Cursed Scroll and animate and swing with a Mishra's Factory. Is that too much at one time? Maybe for his build, I guess but I sort of like having options post-Pox.

Anyway, from some testing here are some things that I like:

* Contagion - I like it against Goblins and Merfolk. I certainly like it more than Spinning Darkness.

* The 2x copies of Nether Spirit - I like them but they will be the only creatures that I ever play. I would also Sideboard them out against any deck with Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile. I like my opponent having dead cards. So if all of their removal is dead, that's a positive. Even if they just pitch those cards to Lilliana/Smallpox. It's more dead draws later. Nether Spirit almost makes me want to play Contamination Sideboard but I guess Nether Void is better there since quite a few decks do stuff with black. Even still, I'll probably end up creatureless.

* Multiple copies of Pox - I think it's deck dependent though. I have actually cast a first turn Pox which won me the game, although those scenarios are very few and far between. I was on the draw and my opponent went Mountain, Goblin Lackey, go. I didn't have an Innocent Blood, so he lost his Mountain, Lackey, two cards and seven life instead. Even still if he played an Æther Vial on turn 2 I would have been in a lot of trouble. I like more copies of Pox, but I like playing Mox Diamond too.

* I will champion Dark Ritual - Tempo still matters in Magic, especially in Legacy. With the banning of Mental Misstep, worst case scenario is they Force of Will whatever you try to speed out. That's almost like them just getting hit with a Hymn to Tourach, so I'm OK with that. Yes, drawing them late is bad, but so is drawing a lot of things late, like land or, my favorite, multiple copies of Lilliana when they Pithing Needle her. :cry:

Here are some things that I dislike:

* Tombstalker - Just a critter removal target, really. And the majority of the game, since you don't have a lot of targets, they'll just be holding it anyway. Sure, you can attack their hand/mana base so that when he hits he can win the game, but I don't like having to take otherwise dead cards just to be able to finish the game. Obviously I could argue this card from both sides of the equation, because if they get rid of all their removal pitching to Lilliana or whatnot then the 'stalker will go all the way, but there's a difference between theory and execution and in execution I'm not a fan. He feels clunky.

* Crucible - Great card, I just don't like it here. Re-playing lands that you blow up with Pox/Smallpox is cool, I guess, but if that Crucible were a threat you could just be trying to end the game instead of re-playing lands and looking to finish. Occasionally you can Wasteland lock someone but people can play around Wasteland a lot and if you're blowing up basics so you can hope to Wasteland non-basics later, you aren't eliminating a color like you could.

* Sinkhole - Only good for games where you mana-hose them. Which is due to a lot of things, like them keeping subpar hands, you getting lucky on a Hymn or blowing up so much stuff they become relevant mid-game. I kind of just want more business.

We have a lot better options now than several years ago. I remember playing Pox where one of my win conditions was Steel Golem. So we've come a long way. Lilliana of the Veil is a great card. I like Inquisition of Kozilek too because we do enough damage to ourselves as it is so we don't need the shock from Thoughtseize too.

Right now, I'm a big fan of being anti-aggro main and Sideboarding to make my deck stronger against Control. I love Underworld Dreams out of the Side. My deck is starting to come together but card choices are so vast it's hard to narrow it down to a seventy-five that I'm completely comfortable with.


I still think Dystopia is a useful card which warrants testing

I don't like it at all here, man. I like Perish better against Green and I like Gloom a lot against White. Especially since you're playing Dark Ritual. Or Massacre. I don't feel our decks can keep paying life. Especially when each turn they just sac their smallest threat and then still get in the Red Zone. Dystopia is just too slow.

Some of the cards I still want to try are: Tanglewire, Night of Soul's Betrayal & Tainted Æther. I don't know if any of them will come close to making the cut (most likely not), but I still want to try new ideas instead of outright dismissing everything.

I still have a lot more playtesting to do. A lot more metagame decks to play against. I still have a few months until the Indianapolis Legacy tournament, which is where I hope to play this at.

[kombatkiwi]

PS you have some good feedback
I think he didn't play the rack because he thought cursed scroll was better than it. He doesn't have any space really to play both, what would you cut from his list to include it?

I agree that from Reids interview he implied that the only reason he played Pox, Nether Void and the Abyss was that they were kind of his pet cards.
Pox is still decent as a one of but in testing I found that Nether Void was really weird as I often wasn't in a good position to cast it. Considering that you can play it and then lose anyway to manlands, aether vial and dredge. It feels like more of a sideboard card as a one-of against combo perhaps, but even then it seems extremely sketchy due to the high manacost.

Spinning Darkness on the other hand I was always happy to draw and I would keep the one mained. The only thing that's stopping me from taking out Nether Void for another one maindecked is that in the early game it can be hard to get black cards in the bin quickly and if you draw 2 it will be very difficult to play both.

4 Urborgs was sometimes awkward. Once I had urborg and 2 other lands in play, urborg and another card in my hand, and something I really had to kill with my cursed scroll, so I had to float the mana off my lands and then legend-rule half my manabase away in order to get a guaranteed reveal. It did help me cast a lot of my spells though so I'm not sure yet if I want to cut it to three.

I completely agree with your comments on Dark Ritual, Tombstalker and Crucible, Dark Ritual especially because turn 1 Liliana is RETARDED. Most decks have no way of dealing with it AT ALL if it resolves. If they force it, well then like you say, the Liliana might as well have just been a resolved Hymn to Tourach.

I feel like 2 pox is the right number after playing the tournament with three and then testing with only one and from Reid's list I would cut the Nether Void for it.

I disagree on what you're saying about sinkhole though
It's not only good for the mana-denial but it's also good for the fact that it can reliably blow up manlands which are otherwise very difficult to deal with ( I <3 Spinning Darkness)
Turn2 Sinkhole into Turn3 Liliana leaves their 3 Drop (or 2 drop, depending who started) stranded in their hand which gives you the opportunity to discard it. Admittedly the card isn't the best in the deck but it is useful and it fits in the curve very well so I don't really know what else I would use.

In testing I used lilianas ultimate a couple more times. Even if they don't have anything in play, when it gets up to about 8 or so counters just using the -6 ability as Rain of Salt is powerful enough for the opponent to get worried about.

Contagion I feel is worse than Engineered Plague for those matchups
The fact that it's only -2 toughness means that it can really only kill one creature
There are plenty more options for black like Disfigure or Dead Weight or Vendetta or Ghastly Demise or maxing out on Innocent Blood that perform a similar function but without the card disadvantage.

The problem with Massacre and Gloom and Perish is that they hate on green and white but not both at the same time which means you either take up a lot of sideboard slots or miss hate for a certain matchup
The fact that you can kill any permanent not just creatures can also be relevant, eg Elspeth, Thopter Foundry, Enchantress (Although gloom does a pretty good job with these)
Admittedly, the one game I did play with Dystopia, it suffered from the exact problem you describe, but I still want to test it out more.

What matchup do you board Underworld Dreams in?

Night of soul's betrayal I am not keen on mained for the shrinking of factories and nether spirit. The opportunity cost of Night of souls betrayal from the SB is that it could be an Engineered Plague instead.

Tainted Aether is a cool card but against creature decks 4 mana might be too slow. The interaction with nether spirit is also a complete disaster. The abyss seems better for this purpose.

I don't see how Tangle Wire is better than Sinkhole, but like you say, test new ideas instead of just throwing them away.

[ActionJunkie]

Not sure how you can argue fewer than x4 Pox in a build with x4 Rack. Getting your opponent's life low, low, low makes Rack absurdly good.

Hand OR Land destruction is also key as noted by players with a ton of experience in page after page throughout the thread ;).

Completely agree Ritual into Liliana is so good it might actually make Pox tier 1 with the right build.

I'm also liking x1 Underworld Dreams main-deck with possibly 1-2 in SB. It's damn good right now with Ponder/Brainstorm everywhere. At the very least, every little bit helps with Pox, Rack, and Cursed Scroll.

Still deciding on x1 Vengeful Pharaoh.

No clue how Reid or anyone can argue Nether Spirit over Bloodghast. Being able to abuse Bloodghast recursion in multiples and having haste as gravy is "strickly better" ;). Why would blocking be an issue when you have Pox, Smallpox, Liliana, Dismember, Pharaoh... if anyone needs to block, it's your opponent so your Rack, Cursed Scroll, or Underworld Dreams doesn't kill them the next turn.

Also, all swamps is the answer... screw the other shenanigans (man-lands) - you don't need them and they can cause game losses by missing a key Hymn or "Pox." I'm loving only x22 Swamp atm in my build... almost feels like playing RuG tempo ;).

Will gladly share a report after I try the build I'm testing in a larger tournament - hopefully soon.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

I used to run Tangle Wire in Pox, I played it more like Mono Black Stax with Pox though.

I love Nether Void, amazing, do not own one, but would run a oneof, if I did. I also actually love Trinisphere too in Pox. I wish I could remember my old Vintage build with Tangle Wire, Trinisphere, and Pox, it could handle the old vintage deck's speed, I cant imagine it would be much worse in a slower Legacy format.
especially with Liliana. Ill be honest. I originally looked at Liliana, and like other Planeswalkers I looked at her end all ability (which sucks)
But Liliana is not about her end all, its the edict, and Raven's Crime ability before the end all.
screw it, it might take a while, but I am going to build my old triniwire pox, with Liliana.

[kombatkiwi]

Not sure how you can argue fewer than x4 Pox in a build with x4 Rack. Getting your opponent's life low, low, low makes Rack absurdly good.

Hand OR Land destruction is also key as noted by players with a ton of experience in page after page throughout the thread ;).

Completely agree Ritual into Liliana is so good it might actually make Pox tier 1 with the right build.

I'm also liking x1 Underworld Dreams main-deck with possibly 1-2 in SB. It's damn good right now with Ponder/Brainstorm everywhere. At the very least, every little bit helps with Pox, Rack, and Cursed Scroll.

Still deciding on x1 Vengeful Pharaoh.

No clue how Reid or anyone can argue Nether Spirit over Bloodghast. Being able to abuse Bloodghast recursion in multiples and having haste as gravy is "strickly better" ;). Why would blocking be an issue when you have Pox, Smallpox, Liliana, Dismember, Pharaoh... if anyone needs to block, it's your opponent so your Rack, Cursed Scroll, or Underworld Dreams doesn't kill them the next turn.

Also, all swamps is the answer... screw the other shenanigans (man-lands) - you don't need them and they can cause game losses by missing a key Hymn or "Pox." I'm loving only x22 Swamp atm in my build... almost feels like playing RuG tempo ;).

Will gladly share a report after I try the build I'm testing in a larger tournament - hopefully soon.

The problem I found with many (3 or more) copies of pox is that
a) It's very hard to cast more than one copy, due to the sacrificing and discarding of all your lands and
b) you rarely ever want to because it puts you on such low life that all their topdecks become very scary

I tested a lot of games against elves and when they werent able to combo off nether spirit being able to block kept me alive for quite a few turns because they didn't want to waste cards by attacking into it.
It's also good for blocking against decks that want to just stick one decent threat and keep swinging with it while you try to find an answer (reanimator, delver decks, a lot of UG goyf decks)
When you block with nether spirits it also lets you kill X/4s with your cursed scroll and I have done that to Germ tokens a few times which are difficult to race even if you are recurring all 4 of your bloodghasts

I played against a Hypergenesis deck for a few games that tries to resolve show and tell or ardent plea/violent outburst by using the Tinder Farm cycle of lands
Sinkholes and wastelands were amazing and made sure he could never resolve his win condition while I keep making him disard all his cards away

[P.S.]

What matchup do you board Underworld Dreams in?
Pretty much any deck that plays Brainstorm is what it seems like so far. Maybe not the Delver deck. Also, a lot of the cards you're talking about costing me too much, remember that I play both Mox Diamond and Dark Ritual.

Also, although it makes cards like Innocent Blood & Geth's Verdict weaker, Contagion can shut down offensive creatures w/out killing them. Making a 2/x creature a 0/x creature is a big deal. It's stopping four damage in the Red Zone a turn. And you don't have to worry about the drawbacks that Spinning Darkness gives you. Like the creature being black or you not having the cards in the GY to remove.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

For the life of me I cannot understand why everyone in this forum is having a difficult time casting more than one Pox.

Seriously, it kept me up last night.

I run 17 Swamp, and usually cast two Pox a game, and if I could draw them, I can usually cast more.

Honestly with 4 Pox, casting multiple, I can almost cast a Corrupt in every match (not game) but more times then I care to remember, I sit at the table looking at my opponent while were in top deck mode. I think to myself. "I wish I had a friggin Corrupt." I almost bought a 4 pack last month because I was tired of having 6-7 Swamp in play with nothing to do with them, its why I play Raven's Crime.

PLay testing is nothing like playing.
it is a different atmosphere, when you play test, you do it with people whom you play a lot with, and with that, you know how each other plays.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

Ive also been thinking, Underworld dreams, I use it, but always think there is something better. there is not.
Underworld dreams in Legacy is amazing. so many decks run draw. every deck draws at least one card a turn, it is damage every turn.
and when you play Pox, you do not need a lot of other damage outside of Pox. with Cursed Scroll, Underworld Dreams, and Pox, you almost do not need any other win conditions.

you all have convinced me though, Liliana has a small place in Pox. I would not run 4 f her though, 3 yes, but not 4. I only want to run into her once, never twice.

[jin]

Ive also been thinking, Underworld dreams, I use it, but always think there is something better. there is not.
Underworld dreams in Legacy is amazing. so many decks run draw. every deck draws at least one card a turn, it is damage every turn.
and when you play Pox, you do not need a lot of other damage outside of Pox. with Cursed Scroll, Underworld Dreams, and Pox, you almost do not need any other win conditions.

you all have convinced me though, Liliana has a small place in Pox. I would not run 4 f her though, 3 yes, but not 4. I only want to run into her once, never twice.

Why would you have a different rule for Liliana than for Pox? They essentially run in the same slot, except Liliana is far more controllable but more susceptible to dying. I would run more Liliana than I would run pox.


post l

Additionally, I'd like to add that Reid's deck isn't too strange running that high of a land count because Pox decks generally hurt themselves with Pox effects, so running 24+ lands is quite normal if it's not aggro pox. I think the Inquisition vs Thoughtseize argument has been addressed in the SCG article. He said that he likes to see FOW being casted because of the 2 for 1, so he cares more about the life loss than the FOW, which makes sense.

What's interesting is actually why he doesn't run Sensei's Divining Top, because most of us would agree that that's a superior card in the top deck race.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

@Jin
I want to see two Pox every game, at least one.
Liliana is not going to win me any games, she will just help me control them. Pox is one of the main win conditions.

If I see Liliana more than once, it is a dead card in my hand. I am not concerned with my opponent attacking me/ or Liliana. If she gets in play, the likelihood of her being in play at least three turns is good. I only need her for about 3-4 turns. I am concerned however, that I cannot do enough damage to my opponent.

I do not play Pox for killing lands, creatures, or hands. I play Pox because it deals damage as well as other things.

If Pox was one or two black mana, and I was able to choose between 1/3 life, hand, creatures, or land, I would almost exclusively choose life.

This is why I have different rules for Liliana and Pox.

[jin]

If Pox was one or two black mana, and I was able to choose between 1/3 life, hand, creatures, or land, I would almost exclusively choose life.

This is why I have different rules for Liliana and Pox.


oh yes, you've mentioned this before. I suppose it's been working out for you. I'm more about controlling. I think if you play Pox that way, you might consider a more aggressive build then. Liliana doesn't seem too viable in your list.

Extra Lilianas are good. They allow me to use some of Liliana's removal ability, which is necessary sometimes. It also lightens the opponent's pressure on you since Liliana can tank some damage for you, but she'll be back very soon..

[iamfrightenedtoo]

@Jin
Your right. I originally did say Liliana was not going to be good. I was wrong. She has a place in the deck, I guess my original negativity for her was due to me not playing the average Pox strategy.

I think I might turn towards a more controlling version of Pox though, and have been looking into acquiring Liliana.
I still think her end all ability is a joke.

[P.S.]

Liliana has a small place in Pox. I would not run 4 of her though, 3 yes, but not 4. I only want to run into her once, never twice.

I concur. Right now I run three copies of both Pox and Lilliana. I wanted more Pox and less Lilliana. Pox wins games. That's why the deck is called Pox!

[kombatkiwi]

oh yes, you've mentioned this before. I suppose it's been working out for you. I'm more about controlling. I think if you play Pox that way, you might consider a more aggressive build then. Liliana doesn't seem too viable in your list.

Extra Lilianas are good. They allow me to use some of Liliana's removal ability, which is necessary sometimes. It also lightens the opponent's pressure on you since Liliana can tank some damage for you, but she'll be back very soon..

Pox doesn't make sense in anything but a control deck
Paying 3 mana to make the opponent take 7 (at max, if you're an agressive deck hopefully you made them lose some life before you got to 3 mana) isn't a good enough trade off for edicting your own guys that you're trying to kill them with!

What you wrote about liliana I completely agree with, I would always play 4.

'If you cast this card then you're going to lose a bunch of life' is the worst part of the card pox. This is apparent to me every time I play the card.

If your opponent has 2 lands and no creatures in play and nothing in hand and I have an active liliana, I would rather that I have 20 life and they have 100 than we are both on like 3 life.

Here are opposing topdecks that can fuck you up in that latter situation quite easily
-Creatures with flash, eg snapcaster, vendilion clique (when you +1 liliana they cast in response, next turn attack you with it)
-Burn spells
-Creatures with haste (Goblin guide was very popular at the last open)
-Removal for your liliana and then literally any card

I am never concerned that I will not be able to do enough damage to the opponent because if I make the game go long enough I know for sure that my cursed scroll will eventually get there.

I am concerned that if I am on very low life my opponent can get a lucky topdeck that I will not be able to deal with quickly enough.

[lyracian]

I am concerned that if I am on very low life my opponent can get a lucky topdeck that I will not be able to deal with quickly enough.A lucky top deck and swing the game either way against a lot of opponents. The longer the game goes on the more chance they have of this happening. That is why using Pox is helpful.

Dealing 6-7 damage to the opponent and taking a couple of cards from there hand helps a lot. I want to cast it early and probably only once during the game.

[Loki Sukaido]

@kombatkiwi: What you say is true. That is the nature of Pox, though. So, to compensate we need to find other ways of getting those last few points in. Underworld Dreams, the Rack, or even Sign in Blood can all be good...especially if you combine Underworld Dreams with Sign in Blood. That's a 4 damage topdeck. Granted, you'd only want to try something like that when you think you're gonna win, cause giving your opponent two cards is bad, but the damage can be great. And early, you can Pox/Smallpox, Liliana those cards away if you have the set up. :wink:

[iamfrightenedtoo]

If Pox didnt do the life loss, I would not play it. 1/3 of my opponents life? they can take my 1/3.
Underworld Dreams
Bump in the Night
The Rack
Sign in Blood

@kombatkiwi
you dont want to do any damage to your opponent before your first Pox, you want to maximize your life loss potential. I really do not think you understand how the deck works. Pox has draw backs, you make the deck so you do not have to deal with the draw backs.
Pox runs creatures that can come back from the graveyard. it runs enough lands to make up for the land loss. (I personally run a lot less lands than most Pox players at 17-18 depending on what build I run.)
the damage resources of pox are also recurring and are unfazed by Pox, like enchantments, and artifacts.
also I do not care about what my opponent has in his or her hand, my deck is made to handle their hand.

[P.S.]

I would never play Bump in the Night. That card is just...so bad.

http://i.imgur.com/HkanQ.jpg

What about this card is appealing at all? If you want to seem original and "go against the grain" so to speak, at least try to champion a decent card.

1. It is a terrible finisher.
2. It is terrible early game (You never, ever want to draw this unless they're at 3 life).
3. It is a sorcery.
4. It can not act as removal.
5. You can never flash it back.

There are just so many better options it is ridiculous. I honestly can not fathom why you are trying to get this card over. It is unplayable. Stop it.

People would not play Lightning Bolt if it were a sorcery that could not hit creatures too (sans after choosing better burn spells to fill out a burn deck). That is what you are trying to do.

Recommending cards like this is never going to get us anywhere and is certainly not going to help this deck move forward. Play another copy of The Rack, or Cursed Scroll or something.

"If I draw two of them, then that is a loss of six life for two black mana which should end the game!" <-- Please do not try to make this argument.

I do not think that Sign in Blood is any good in Pox either but at least it is a playable card.

[kombatkiwi]

If Pox didnt do the life loss, I would not play it. 1/3 of my opponents life? they can take my 1/3.
Underworld Dreams
Bump in the Night
The Rack
Sign in Blood

@kombatkiwi
you dont want to do any damage to your opponent before your first Pox, you want to maximize your life loss potential. I really do not think you understand how the deck works. Pox has draw backs, you make the deck so you do not have to deal with the draw backs.
Pox runs creatures that can come back from the graveyard. it runs enough lands to make up for the land loss. (I personally run a lot less lands than most Pox players at 17-18 depending on what build I run.)
the damage resources of pox are also recurring and are unfazed by Pox, like enchantments, and artifacts.
also I do not care about what my opponent has in his or her hand, my deck is made to handle their hand.

what PS said about BitN is absolutely correct and I don't think that needs to be discussed any further

The problem with the life loss from pox is that it can never ever actually kill the opponent (unless they're on 1 life). The disruption in terms of sending cards to the graveyard is very strong and this is why I agree with you for all of the bolded parts in the quote.

The logic that you want to not deal any damage before pox in order to maximise the life loss is absurd. Consider the following:

Both players are on 20. You have a nether spirit. It doesn't have summoning sickness. The opponent doesn't have a blocker. You know for sure that next turn you won't have to block anything. You have BBB available and have a pox in your hand.
You can attack and then pox and put them to 12
You can not attack and pox and put them to 13
How does saving damage until after a pox help you win the game any faster? Sure they lose more life from the pox but if they are losing less life overall then there's literally no reason for that philosophy.
If you're playing non-repeatable damage garbage like bump in the night though I suppose that rule makes more sense.

You listed all the ways a pox deck can compensate for the drawbacks of the card EXCEPT for the life loss which is the reason why the card is quite sketchy and (imo) why reid only played one copy.

Opponent turn 1: nacatl
You: Swamp

Opponent turn 2: Goyf, cat attacks you to 17
You: Smallpox, opponent sacrifices cat

Opponent turn 3: Another dude, goyf attacks you to 13
You: can't even cast pox because you just played smallpox, so you luckily have innocent blood and play it.

Opponent turn 4: Goyf takes you to about 8 or 9
You: Pox

Opponent probably still has a guy somewhere in hand or in play
You're on 5 or 6 life, opponent is on 13
Yes you only took 3 and your opponent took 7
Who cares, you're dead to literally everything and your opponent is laughing that you just bolted yourself

You can argue that there was probably a better line of play in this situation depending on what you had in hand but the truth is that against any deck like this (zoo and maverick, some versions of bant etc which are all quite popular) Pox will very often put you in this position. If you cast a smallpox instead then you only lose 1 life and compared to resolving pox that can often be the difference between winning and losing.

[KobeBryan]

I would never play Bump in the Night. That card is just...so bad.

http://i.imgur.com/HkanQ.jpg

What about this card is appealing at all? If you want to seem original and "go against the grain" so to speak, at least try to champion a decent card.

1. It is a terrible finisher.
2. It is terrible early game (You never, ever want to draw this unless they're at 3 life).
3. It is a sorcery.
4. It can not act as removal.
5. You can never flash it back.

There are just so many better options it is ridiculous. I honestly can not fathom why you are trying to get this card over. It is unplayable. Stop it.

People would not play Lightning Bolt if it were a sorcery that could not hit creatures too (sans after choosing better burn spells to fill out a burn deck). That is what you are trying to do.

Recommending cards like this is never going to get us anywhere and is certainly not going to help this deck move forward. Play another copy of The Rack, or Cursed Scroll or something.

"If I draw two of them, then that is a loss of six life for two black mana which should end the game!" <-- Please do not try to make this argument.

I do not think that Sign in Blood is any good in Pox either but at least it is a playable card.

what they should have done with this card is make it an instant

target player loses 3 life or target creature gets 0/-3

[iamfrightenedtoo]

@P.S.
I laughed about your post for Bump in the Night.

Bump In the Night is a finisher for Pox. Why would you compare Red Burn to Mono Black Pox?
of course Red Burn would not run a lightning bolt that was a sorcery, that could not target creatures. Because they do not run, 8 Pox spells, and four edict Spells. They also do not control the atmosphere.

How often have you found yourself in a match with your opponent and you top decking, and your opponent is at 4 or less? because it happens to me almost every match, (Matches I have a chance in winning. A lot of times, Pox just gets blown out, it is the nature of the deck.)
Twice on Wednesday, it won me games. One by itself, and one in front of an Underworld Dreams. And it had a hand in games in every game it came up.

Bump in the Night is a card I will run in every version of Pox from now until they print another card for Pox that replaces it.

So many people just look at a card, and read what it does, and stop there. But not all cards are printed in all decks.
Jace, Mind Sculptor is an amazing card, would you run it in Mono Black Pox? no.
Bump In The Night is a bad card, would you run it in Burn, Bant, Bug, Rug, zoo, XX Stoneforge? no,
Would you run Bump in a deck that has a hard time dealing end game damage, that has answers for everything else? Yes. And you should.

I actually just went 1-3 drop, with Pox this Wednesday.
I won three games, one Match. I lost one of the matches by a stupid player mistake, that will not be named. I lost another match because I fought with a whiny punk who cried about Pox life loss. (He was at 16, I Pox'd, he thought he only lost 5 life because his 5th grade teacher -and every one elses- told him, that you only round up when the number is .5 and above.) by the way, Pox has rounded up even if the life is only one above the number. i.e. 16 life loses 1/3 which is 5.3 but since it was printed, the life is always rounded up to 6 life.)
I gave the kid the match, because I realized that he cared more about winning, than I did.

I did steam roll Goblins, one game with Pox, because I was at 1 life, and he was at 11.
at one life I dropped an ensnaring Bridge. He thought it was game for me. I had extirpated his direct damage. I was just hoping that I didnt draw into a Pox, or Small Pox. would have lost me the game, because he could have then attacked me, or if I pox'd I would have lost the one life.
I didnt draw into a Pox though, I drew an Underworld dreams, and got him to 4. then Drew a Bump in the Night, then passed turn. (come to think about it, in Pox, Bump sucks......*Sarcasm*)
the other game against Goblins, I side boarded to my Necrotic Ooze Combo, and had the delight to explain the combo to someone who had never seen it before on turn two.

I won another game with Bump in the night and Pox, to some random Tarmagoyf/Jace/force deck.

I could have 4-0 or 3-1 with deck if you take away that aforementioned player mistake, which was reanimating a creature out of my opponents deck (forget which one, might have been Tarmagoyf) with a Jace on the board, I didnt read it and forgot it also comes with a boomerang option, which did two things. Took away my creature and gave him another tarmagoyf............stupid. I lost the other two games to the deck. he won the first game, I mulliganed down to 5 cards, and just got blown out.

I actually have a hard time with Magic. I hate most of you. (Not any of you in particular, or individually) Actually most of you might be pretty cool, who is to say.
But face to face, I hate most Magic payers. Magic players are neurotic, nerdy, -know it alls-who are all almost exclusively without exception, bitchy kids.
Nothing upsets me more, and turns me more off to a match or game, or even a tournament is sitting with some of these players for more than 45 minutes.

I once sat with a kid, who both bitched and made fun of me, for playing Pox, because it was a stupid card, while I beat him. He was playing Grow-a-tog (anyone remember that little nugget from about ten years ago?) It just takes the fun out of it.

I need a few tweaks, to the deck, I was planning on shelving the deck until I could afford a new Pox build that would require expensive cards, (No not sinkholes or Wast lands, or Crucible) its a little weird and different. probably bad. But I was going to shelve it, and run affinity, which is my other pet deck. But after this tournament, which was my first in about two months, I am actually, very enthusiast about the state of this deck.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You mean Lightning Bolt with flashback?

So, can I ask what the reason is to keep this deck monocolor? It seems like the list would benefit enormously from Life from the Loam. My initial draft would look something like;

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Cabal Pit
3 Treetop Village
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Barren Moor
2 Maze of Ith

4 Mox Diamond

4 Raven's Crime
4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Life from the Loam
4 Liliana of the Veil

3 Eternal Witness

I dunno, I like Cursed Scroll and all but it seems like you get to run better cards this way. Raven's Crime seems a lot better here than Thoughtseize or Inquisition, honestly.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

@ the infamous bear assassin
I know it is just an initial list, (and green black works decently)
but how could you leave out, Pernicious Deed, and Maelstrom Pulse?
I do agree, Ravens Crime is amazing.

BTW,
If Bump was an instant, and also targeted creatures, it would be banned, because Black doesnt need it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Deed seems more like a sideboard card against the very fast aggro decks, I don't think you really want it against anything else. You have plenty of creature removal against most decks.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I actually have a hard time with Magic. I hate most of you. (Not any of you in particular, or individually) Actually most of you might be pretty cool, who is to say.
But face to face, I hate most Magic payers. Magic players are neurotic, nerdy, -know it alls-who are all almost exclusively without exception, bitchy kids.
Nothing upsets me more, and turns me more off to a match or game, or even a tournament is sitting with some of these players for more than 45 minutes.

ROFL!!! Omg, I pretty much spit out my Mt Dew laughing when I got about half way through, and it wasn't even really meant to be funny I dont think lol. Ahh... I feel your pain, because I know many people've probably felt the same way; I for one, at least I'd like to say, am pretty outgoing into sports, snowboarding, and a variety of shi*, and I could name quite a few local players that I see their literally every day, same pompous neurotic behavior you described, and I have a hard time really assimilating with these kids.

@Bearsin

So, can I ask what the reason is to keep this deck monocolor? It seems like the list would benefit enormously from Life from the Loam. My initial draft would look something like;

I remember over the years there's actually been quite a-lotta B/G Pox lists rocking Loam and a lot of the cards you mentioned, giving sorta a Rock-like approach. I think if you deckcheck there's been a fair amount of top 8's reported. Generally most would run Deed as well.

I guess it really comes down to style, because from what I've noticed over the years is that you can break Pox down into 2 categories: aggro Pox lists that'll run more stuff like Rack/Storm/Bloodghasts/Tombstalker and such, and the control Pox lists will often go for spells like Nether Spirit/Crucible/Loam/Deed/Ensnaring Bridge/etc. I've even seen Crop Rotation used successfully to find Maze or Factories.

The main thing I'd have against a list like the one you mentioned, would be that it's just plain screwed against Blood Moon and GY hate. Whereas, other lists that run direct forms of damage or Stalkers can be a little more balanced, and Wastes can help some decks roll over you, EVEN with the fact that your deck runs Loam.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

Deed seems more like a sideboard card against the very fast aggro decks, I don't think you really want it against anything else. You have plenty of creature removal against most decks.

actually you are right, With Liliana, Pernicious Deed is a sideboard card now.
you have no win condition in your deck though, Cursed scroll is amazing. Legacy is so slow now, that it just works, all Planeswalkers, Stoneforge, most early Zoo, Merfolk, although late game Merfolk gets tricky because they get pretty big. Goblins, sligh,
its awesome.

I would at least take out eternal witness, and add in Nether Spirit.

[P.S.]

So now you've resorted to trolling the Magic community as a whole and trying to downplay competitive play because you got called out on playing bad cards? Which you're still trying to champion, although no one is listening or agreeing with you.

I guess we'll just wait for a moderator at this point, then. :cry:

Anyway, after adding his nonsense to my ignore list, the trouble area that I am having right now is in the Sideboard. I am really anti-creature mainboard so I feel like I want to have more options against Control/Combo in the Side. I'm currently running Duress main over Inquisition because there are some 4-drops that I want that are scary and not really any creatures I care about since I run so much creature hate.

Cursed Scroll has been better than I remembered as well. I currently have two copies and am thinking about a third. Or maybe a third in the Sideboard. Other than that though, I'm up for suggestions. Gloom has been decent but there's really not all that much white that I'm running into. And making cards like Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile cost more when they're almost dead doesn't matter a lot. Pithing Needle has been MVP but most decks seem to know it's coming so they have some sort of answer.

I've also thought about adding a second color. I was tempted to try Armageddon and cut Pox completely for awhile. Just not so amazing when people in Legacy run various Vials and Moxes and whatnot. Maybe a Sideboard option? I don't know. Doesn't seem incredibly viable.

[Mystical_Jackass]

@P.S.


I've also thought about adding a second color. I was tempted to try Armageddon and cut Pox completely for awhile. Just not so amazing when people in Legacy run various Vials and Moxes and whatnot. Maybe a Sideboard option? I don't know. Doesn't seem incredibly viable.

I actually had a pretty sick idea that I never really ran with probably a good year ago, while I was testing out :b::w: Deadguy lists.

Based on what you said about cutting Pox entirely, I thought about splashing white for Cataclysm. So basically you'd run plenty of discard, but I was considering mixing in Flagstones, Mox Diamond, Smallpox/Sinkholes too. One of the WinCons I was thinking was Bitterblossom. So it runs with the same concept where after you mess up the board position, you'll be left way ahead and run that to victory.
Some benefits too running that over Pox is that its safer (always sucks getting chipped out by burn) and it also hoses Planeswalkers, which is something stuff like innocent blood and pox' can't do.

Thoughts?

[Shawon]

When I ran LoamPox, I splashed white for Vindicate because I needed to replace Pox with an actual card that killed Jace TMS. Vindicate is probably the best white card you could splash white for in Pox, but given the state of today's metagame, I don't think it's what you need.

Is it just me being crazy, but does Snapcaster Mage have the potential to be pretty good in this deck? I can't help but think how broken it would be to Snapcast a Smallpox mid/late game. I've been struggling to conjure up a Pox list with Snapcaster Mage AND Liliana of the Veil. I'm going to start by editing my old Loam Pox list and replacing Vindicate with Snapcaster Mage and change the manabase accordingly.

[aahz]

I've been working on BW Pox for a while. It's tons of fun. My list isn't really tuned to be competitive since I just play this deck for kicks when I'm looking for something different. Flagstones of Trokair is awesome in a Pox shell. I keep worrying about running out of swamps/plains to fetch out, but so far it's never been a problem (always get the Godless Shrine first with Flagstones since it comes in tapped anyway). The Mox Diamonds are essential in this sort of Pox variant and make the manabase function a lot more smoothly than one would expect (dealing with excess Urborgs/Flagstones). It's easy to tweak for an expected metagame by just shifting the Enlightened Tutor targets. I'm thinking about dropping to 2 E.Tutors in the maindeck (moving 1 to the side) since the silver bullet strategy isn't as effective game one when you don't know exactly what the opponent is doing and might be missing the correct target in the maindeck anyway (I often tutor for Top if I don't already have it unless there is an obvious better choice).

Here's my list (off the top of my head, so it's probably a few cards off in reality):

The Germ Theory of Disease (Enlightened Pox)

4 Scrubland
1 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
3 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Vault of Whispers

4 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Smallpox
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Vindicate
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nether Spirit

3 Enlightened Tutor
1 The Rack
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Bitterblossom

Sideboard:
1 The Abyss
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Planar Void
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Zuran Orb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Cursed Totem
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pox
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Maze of Ith

Other cards that make it in occasionally:
Nether Void
Thoughtseize
Tidehollow Sculler (as a 1 of for Enlightened Tutor)
Seal of Cleansing
Suppression Field
Meekstone
Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg
Tormod's Crypt

[sclabman]

I'll provide my first-hand experience of the badassery of the above list.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Love it!

Yeah that's almost exactly the list I was going for, something close to that. That deck looks sick, I personally ran 3 E. Tutors as well and I know what you mean, sometimes they get in the way. I also ran 2 Vindicates as well...

A couple small suggestions you might want to think about, maybe cut back on your factories & wastes, or one of them for your mana base. I screwed myself over a couple games in a tourney, basically losing to myself, 'cause I couldn't hit that BB for Hymn or Smallpox early on, lossed tempo and got rolled.

The second is more preference, but I ran StP's instead of Innocent Blood. I just found it superior... and with running 6 fetch, 4 scrub, 2 Flagstones I never really had a problem finding white mana early game, but that's your call.

I still think someone should test throwing in Cataclysm. I'm still bitter I never actually got around testing it!