All B/R update speculation.

I can't think of a single scenario where Brainstorm is better than Ancestral Recall outside of UW Miracles. Except that's a moot point since the entire legacy metagame would be wildly different if it was legal. Legacy doesn't have restricted cards. Ancestral Recall would have a 4-of, and you simply wouldn't play bad decks where you actually need to put shit from your hand back on top of your library.

Brainstorm will never be better than Ancestral Recall because "putting bad cards away" isn't as good as "Keeping these bad cards and the 3 cards on top of my library."

The problem with Brainstorm isn't that you draw 3 cards, but that you can access to up to three cards from the future, so if you have brainstorm in hand is equivalent to begin the game with a "10 card hand", so instead of having a 40% chance of drawing a specific card, you have a greater one. Like Ancestral Recall, the effect itself is okay if it's properly costed. Brainstorm isn't properly costed and probably too strong for the legacy meta, looking at the historic dominance of decks playing it.

R&D make decisions to ban or no reprint cards based not only on how often they make a deck win a tournament, but also if there will be a card in a future set that can hose it or will make it even more busted. However, they won't take an action if it doesn't affect the popularity of a format, or if its in their interest to kill the format. Months ago, I told WotC that Imperial Painter was a good metagame choice against these blue tempo decks, but people just couldn't afford to play it unless they reprinted Imperial Recruiter, which they recently did. It's still too soon, but the price of the card will become more affordable in a few months.

My personal suggestion is to start splashing dual lands for Daze as the only blue card in the deck. The effect is stronger than Mental Misstep, the drawback is less relevant, and it has all the tempo advantages of Force of Will without its drawbacks. It's one card that buys you tempo even if you don't have it in your deck. The only problem is that the last time I lobbied for splashing a card in every deck, Survival of the Fittest got banned.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

because of the same reason they restricted Ponder and banned Ponder and Preordain in Modern: They can grab Combo pieces

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Combo doesn't exist in Legacy. /sarcasm

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Originally Posted by Kich867

I can't think of a single scenario where Brainstorm is better than Ancestral Recall outside of UW Miracles.

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RUG tempo: Your Delver can be a 3/2 on turn 2.

Combo decks (Storm/Sneak Attack): You can hide your key card from discard.

ProBant: they want to put their Progenitus back into their deck.


I just named four decks where Brainstorm is superior to Recall and three of them are decks to beat.

No. You didn't name four decks, only four situations. I'm 100% sure that AR would be far superior in any of given decks. Ancestral is the most powerful (read: undercosted) Magic card ever. No need for further debate imo.

And yeah, Brainstorm is probably the most powerful legacy card, but there is no need to ban it. Goddamn, Jund/"fair" decks are doing just great atm...

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Combo doesn't exist in Legacy. /sarcasm





RUG tempo: Your Delver can be a 3/2 on turn 2.

Combo decks (Storm/Sneak Attack): You can hide your key card from discard.

ProBant: they want to put their Progenitus back into their deck.


I just named four decks where Brainstorm is superior to Recall and three of them are decks to beat.

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Rug Tempo wouldn't care, Combo Decks would be fine with losing a card when next turn they can draw 4-7 cards, and Pro Bant wouldn't be a deck.

I mean like does that register? That if Ancestral Recall was a card in Legacy non-blue decks just wouldn't exist, and the shitty decks we play compared to what we could play with that card wouldn't be around? I fundamentally can't see a format where you're allowed to play 4x Ancestral Recall where it's not just like storm mirrors or heinously hardcore control.

Furthermore, you're missing the bigger picture of Brainstorm not "not existing". RUG Tempo runs 8-10 cantrips. Guess what's the #1 inclusion now? Ancestrall Recall > Brainstorm. Recall is still better in every situation. We're talking about the difference between having a "virtual" 7 card hand and actually just being able to drill through your deck with Recall.

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Originally Posted by Kich867

I mean like does that register? That if Ancestral Recall was a card in Legacy non-blue decks just wouldn't exist, and the shitty decks we play compared to what we could play with that card wouldn't be around?

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Sorta like now?

We have one deck that is not blue that is a DTB: Jund. The format fluctuates, but most of the time there only ever exists one non-blue DTB. Sure, there are other non-blue decks that put up results, but they are almost all tier 1.5/2 decks because they just die to combo. And guess what every one of those blue decks have?

Brainstorm.

The point I was making wasn't to justify a unbanning of Ancestral Recall (because it is clearly too powerful), but rather to show that the power level of Brainstorm is too high for Legacy and that it stifles (viable) deck variety. You need a damn good reason not to run Brainstorm in Legacy. No, this isn't anything new, but neither is the trend of 90% of the meta being blue and maybe one or two decks being non-blue that are tier 1 and don't just fold to combo.

Without Brainstorm black/green decks are going to smother Blue decks (everything from Combo to Tempo and Control) in card advantage. Everyone and their mums will play Liliana & Co.

Sorry to bring up the power level of Brainstorm to illustrate why Gush should never be unbanned.

Can't we just discuss something that we can all agree on now like the unbanning of Mind Twist.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Combo doesn't exist in Legacy. /sarcasm

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We should still be fair here. There is no Tinker, Y. Will or shit in Legacy and Modern lacks any reasonable Defense

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Originally Posted by bilb_o

Without Brainstorm black/green decks are going to smother Blue decks (everything from Combo to Tempo and Control) in card advantage. Everyone and their mums will play Liliana & Co.

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I'm very sketpical of this.

Look at Modern. Doesn't have cantrips, FoW, JTMS, or Brainstorm. Blue decks have plenty of representation and there is quite a variety of decks.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

We should still be fair here. There is no Tinker, Y. Will or shit in Legacy and Modern lacks any reasonable Defense

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Non-blue might stand a better chance against combo decks if they didn't have Brainstorm.

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Originally Posted by joemauer

Sorry to bring up the power level of Brainstorm to illustrate why Gush should never be unbanned.

Can't we just discuss something that we can all agree on now like the unbanning of Mind Twist.

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There isn't much to discuss when nearly everyone agrees.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

I'm very sketpical of this.

Look at Modern. Doesn't have cantrips, FoW, JTMS, or Brainstorm. Blue decks have plenty of representation and there is quite a variety of aggro decks..

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Fixed

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Fixed

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To be fair, most of the DTB in Legacy win by turning a creature sideways.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Look at Modern. Doesn't have cantrips, FoW, JTMS, or Brainstorm. Blue decks have plenty of representation and there is quite a variety of decks.

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Cools, sounds great. If anybody doesn't like blue in Legacy they can gtfo and play Modern then.

That's already happening.

I like Mind Twist coming off the list, and I also like Black Vise coming off the list. Abrupt Decay is EVERYWHERE, making the format already geared towards fighting it off.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

To be fair, most of the DTB in Legacy win by turning a creature sideways.

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Because Sneak and Show is an Aggro deck...

Do people really think BS should be banned?

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Because Sneak and Show is an Aggro deck...

Do people really think BS should be banned?

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I hope not. Good, yes. Ban-worthy, no.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Because Sneak and Show is an Aggro deck...

Do people really think BS should be banned?

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I don't think they will ban bullshit posts from Drago.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Sorta like now?

We have one deck that is not blue that is a DTB: Jund. The format fluctuates, but most of the time there only ever exists one non-blue DTB. Sure, there are other non-blue decks that put up results, but they are almost all tier 1.5/2 decks because they just die to combo. And guess what every one of those blue decks have?

Brainstorm.

The point I was making wasn't to justify a unbanning of Ancestral Recall (because it is clearly too powerful), but rather to show that the power level of Brainstorm is too high for Legacy and that it stifles (viable) deck variety. You need a damn good reason not to run Brainstorm in Legacy. No, this isn't anything new, but neither is the trend of 90% of the meta being blue and maybe one or two decks being non-blue that are tier 1 and don't just fold to combo.

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You literally just wrote this: people play blue decks because they want blue to improve their combo matchup and because they're playing blue, they play Brainstorm. Clearly that's a sign that Brainstorm is much too good and needs to be banned. Wait what?
I'll let everybody come to conclusions as to what that exhibition of impeccable logic implies as to your point of view's validity on their own.

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Originally Posted by bilb_o

Cools, sounds great. If anybody doesn't like blue in Legacy they can gtfo and play Modern then.

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Great way to get new blood into the format. You should go dig up my post from a year ago about the top three reasons Legacy will be dead in 3-5 years (back when I wrote it).

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Originally Posted by Mon,Goblin Chief

You literally just wrote this: people play blue decks because they want blue to improve their combo matchup and because they're playing blue, they play Brainstorm. Clearly that's a sign that Brainstorm is much too good and needs to be banned. Wait what?
I'll let everybody come to conclusions as to what that exhibition of impeccable logic implies as to your point of view's validity on their own.

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You do realize that 99% of combo decks are blue, right? And they also play Brainstorm, right? Did you notice how I said "blue decks" and not "blue control" or "blue tempo" or "blue combo"? Right?

People play blue because they want to play the best card in the format. It's not rocket science. It just so happens that it helps make fighting combo matchups easier. That same card also makes combo decks better.

But I'm sure you knew that already and were just being facetious.

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Originally Posted by joemauer

I don't think they will ban bullshit posts from Drago.

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Because pointing out that 90% of Legacy is blue is bullshit posting. Because pointing out that blue won't drop dead as evidenced in other formats where Brainstorm is not legal. Because pointing out that most Legacy decks still use the attack step to win beyond Storm decks is bullshit posting.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

You do realize that 99% of combo decks play Brainstorm, right?

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Your argument is counterpointed by SCG Legacy Open at Atlanta this weekend's Top 16:

3/8 decks play Brainstorm (all lost in Quarterfinals)
7/16 decks play Brainstorm.

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Originally Posted by Koby

Your argument is counterpointed by SCG Legacy Open at Atlanta this weekend's Top 16:

3/8 decks play Brainstorm (all lost in Quarterfinals)
7/16 decks play Brainstorm.

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I can't seem to find the link. When do they usually post information?

Edit: I'll comment further when I see the information.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

I can't seem to find the link. When do they usually post information?

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bit.ly/10JwHAr

All the red decks..

So this weekend ANT lost to Elves in the invitational QF, ANT lost to Jund in the open QF and TES lost to Loam in another open QF. Le wut?

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Originally Posted by JamieW89

bit.ly/10JwHAr

All the red decks..

So this weekend ANT lost to Elves in the invitational QF, ANT lost to Jund in the open QF and TES lost to Loam in another open QF. Le wut?

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Burn became a DTB at one point and caused a lot of rage. Not sure why this is a surprise to see a combo deck lose to matchups that are usually byes for it (luck, inexperienced pilot, etc).

I'd love to see Mind Twist be unbanned. I'd love that card in BUg Control.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by JamieW89

bit.ly/10JwHAr

All the red decks..

So this weekend ANT lost to Elves in the invitational QF, ANT lost to Jund in the open QF and TES lost to Loam in another open QF. Le wut?

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All this proves is, that a lot more people seem to pick up storm After it won 2 SCG tournaments in a row but lack any experience with the archtype and fail. I love it that you can't just copy-paste a decklist and perform well with storm aside from the no-brainer starting hands.

It's not uncommon that ANT can loose to Jund and Elves. Once the Player keeps a slow Hand with cantrips he got raced by elves or junds discard. TES loosing to Loam however is hardly explainable due to my knowledge

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Sorta like now?


The point I was making wasn't to justify a unbanning of Ancestral Recall (because it is clearly too powerful), but rather to show that the power level of Brainstorm is too high for Legacy and that it stifles (viable) deck variety.

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It bothers me when people say this. There is a huge variety among the decks that run brainstorm.

Three Brainstorm decks made the top 8 of the Legacy Open today. All three lost to non-blue decks.

Also, anything that makes Legacy more like Modern is a bad idea.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

All this proves is, that a lot more people seem to pick up storm After it won 2 SCG tournaments in a row but lack any experience with the archtype and fail. I love it that you can't just copy-paste a decklist and perform well with storm aside from the no-brainer starting hands.

It's not uncommon that ANT can loose to Jund and Elves. Once the Player keeps a slow Hand with cantrips he got raced by elves or junds discard. TES loosing to Loam however is hardly explainable due to my knowledge

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Huh? What?

Adam Prosak has been on ANT for a long time now and did very well at the SCG Invitation in Los Angeles 3 months ago.
Greg Mitchell has been posting on the TES forum and playing TES for a long time now, got unlucky against Chalice of the Void.dec after going 8-1 in the Swiss.

I'm not sure which performance you are referring to, but good Storm pilots will place well regardless of the metagame.

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Originally Posted by Koby

Huh? What?

Adam Prosak has been on ANT for a long time now and did very well at the SCG Invitation in Los Angeles 3 months ago.
Greg Mitchell has been posting on the TES forum and playing TES for a long time now, got unlucky against Chalice of the Void.dec after going 8-1 in the Swiss.

I'm not sure which performance you are referring to, but good Storm pilots will place well regardless of the metagame.

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Who's talking about SCG or experienced players like Adam, Greg, Bryant or Co. in general? I pick my infos from a wider range of forums and european results in addition to SCG and notice a significant boost in popularity but not performance in addition to some rants

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Originally Posted by JamieW89

So this weekend ANT lost to Elves in the invitational QF, ANT lost to Jund in the open QF and TES lost to Loam in another open QF. Le wut?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

All this proves is, that a lot more people seem to pick up storm After it won 2 SCG tournaments in a row but lack any experience with the archtype and fail. I love it that you can't just copy-paste a decklist and perform well with storm aside from the no-brainer starting hands.

It's not uncommon that ANT can loose to Jund and Elves. Once the Player keeps a slow Hand with cantrips he got raced by elves or junds discard. TES loosing to Loam however is hardly explainable due to my knowledge

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Who's talking about SCG or experienced players like Adam, Greg, Bryant or Co. in general? I pick my infos from a wider range of forums and european results in addition to SCG and notice a significant boost in popularity but not performance in addition to some rants

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Then share them. There's no doubt that players jumping on the bandwagon and attempting to Count to Ten will do poorly. Its not an archetype like Jund that can be learned mid round.

Anyways, nothing from these decks point to anything dominating in Legacy. These decks are safe for the next three months.

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Originally Posted by Koby

Then share them. There's no doubt that players jumping on the bandwagon and attempting to Count to Ten will do poorly. Its not an archetype like Jund that can be learned mid round.

Anyways, nothing from these decks point to anything dominating in Legacy. These decks are safe for the next three months.

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No one has the intention to build a wall ... erm ban brainstorm XP

Seriously, I would never advocate for hitting storm combo

I am not one to do personal attacks, and I don't intend to, but I'm pretty convinced at this point that there's a very strong possibility that Drago is outright trolling this whole thread.

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Originally Posted by bilb_o

I am not one to do personal attacks, and I don't intend to, but I'm pretty convinced at this point that there's a very strong possibility that Drago is outright trolling this whole thread.

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And I am convinced that everyone who thinks that Brainstorm is not ban-worthily overpowered is an idiot or a noob.

I would rather consider it trolling to cherrypick ONE tournament that BARELY misses 50% of the maximum number of a certain card in the top16 and "only" has 12 copies in the top8 as evidence that said card isn't broken.

It's not one tournament man, it's happening on a regular basis one or twice each month (speaking for SCGs).

Take away Brainstorm and there will still be a best card in the format that holds together some archetype that wrecks shit. What do you really want it to be?


Brainstorm is the safest version of that card. It costs 1 so its playable early on in a very fast format. Its good in any stage of the game provided you build around it. Its also skill intensive; a well played Brainstorm makes or breaks the game. One could also say that Brainstorm permits control decks to quell the formats ever present expansion; the greater the card pool expands, the more potential for format breaking combos. A strong presence of control decks allows the combo flavor of the month to change at speeds where Dredge and TES will ultimately oscillate as the best ones whenever the format shifts strongly to something for a short duration. But Brainstorm is more important than just holding back combo; its played in combo decks as well. Spiral Tide, SnT variants, Storm combo, etc. However, these decks could still exist without Brainstorm, while aggro control decks and control decks would have slightly more trouble. If you banned Brainstorm, you'd have to ban LED and a whole slew of other things that would naturally get better with Brainstorm's absence. Granted, there are replacement cantrips for Brainstorm... or are there?


You can't ban Brainstorm, but what WotC can do is print cards that allow the current format to digress a little more. I'd say black has fallen from power outside of combo. What we want is a discard deck that can put the game away against an opponent who just wants to sit back and cantrip their way into permission, spot removal, etc. To do that, WotC has to print something that can't be played along side Brainstorm.

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Originally Posted by bilb_o

It's not one tournament man, it's happening on a regular basis one or twice each month (speaking for SCGs).

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Lol. Cards have regularly been banned for these performances that were carefully cherry-picked to defend Brainstorm (from far more grotesque numbers).

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Originally Posted by Tao

And I am convinced that everyone who thinks that Brainstorm is not ban-worthily overpowered is an idiot or a noob.

I would rather consider it trolling to cherrypick ONE tournament that BARELY misses 50% of the maximum number of a certain card in the top16 and "only" has 12 copies in the top8 as evidence that said card isn't broken.

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Here comes the Westboro baptist church of Magic!

I don't understand why some people are so hell-bent on getting Brainstorm banned and playing Modern with dual lands. We already have Modern decks being played in this format with dual lands (Jund) so if you like the experience ask Wizards to reprint dual lands in Modern frames instead.

Brainstorm is broken. So is S&T, so is Hymn to Tourach, so is Griselbrand, so is Jace 2.0, so is Dark Ritual, so is LED, so are dual lands. This is the format of semi-broken to broken things. For people who want full on broken we have Vintage. For people who want completely unbroken Magic we have Modern. Just go play it if you're not happy with Legacy as it is. You have the option.

Also I don't know which cherry picking you're talking about as I never presented any examples or any data. Cherrypicking NULL?

Edit: As far as bringing in new blood, if this elitist attidue is driving away new players good riddance. I'd rather play my 10 people weeklies than having 50 people who think the most powerful thing you should be doing is casting Preordain. However from what I've seen new players get into Legacy because you can do shit like casting Hymn to Tourach, in response Branstrom->Fetch->Spell Pierce in response Daze biatch.

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Originally Posted by bilb_o

I am not one to do personal attacks, and I don't intend to, but I'm pretty convinced at this point that there's a very strong possibility that Drago is outright trolling this whole thread.

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Because having a different opinion is trolling. See: my rant from a year ago about the three reasons why legacy will die off.

The problem with saying "oh, but WotC can print stuff..." is that WotC doesn't give a shit about Legacy. If WotC cared about Legacy, Modern would not exist. Also, two tournaments with less blue decks doesn't mean that Blue decks are "fair", it just means less people played blue decks. Without looking, I'm guessing that blue decks in other major tournaments made a larger showing than recently.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I'd love to see Mind Twist be unbanned. I'd love that card in BUg Control.

-Matt

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Same. I have and see no issues with it.

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Originally Posted by bilb_o

Edit: As far as bringing in new blood, if this elitist attidue is driving away new players good riddance.

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Remember who said this when Legacy dies out.