Black Vise is one of the safest cards on the banned list.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
Oath of Druids is probably the most dangerous card printed since 1995 (Urza's Block notwithstanding).
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Black Vise is one of the safest cards on the banned list.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
Oath of Druids is probably the most dangerous card printed since 1995 (Urza's Block notwithstanding).
Black Vise is only good in your opener.
It's trash against combo.
It's poor against aggro (lol).
Its OK against tempo.
It's good against control.
The only decks actually doing mana denial are (terrible) prison decks and lands. The other "mana denial" that you see is coming from something like RUG that would never play Black Vise.
You don't want it in prison because chalice. I'm not sure lands really even needs the card. So maybe burn uses it? WATCH OUT GUYS!
You topdeck a Black Vise on turn 4. Against most decks in Legacy it will do no damage or just get countered if they even care. Too bad it wasn't a bolt.
BUT DARK RIT 3X VISE OMG!!!!
That will happen all the time I am sure.
Card is bad and would not perform if unbanned.
I see no real reason to keep Vise on the B/R list, but I also don't really see any reason to take it off - it won't do anything interesting to the format even if it is good. It will just either be good and get stuck in a lot of existing decks or be bad and not be played at all.
Either way, who cares if it stays on the list? I certainly don't. WotC will probably remove it when they put something else under the pretense of throwing a bone to Legacy players.
Unfortunately, the onus is on those claiming it should be unbanned to prove it's safe. The status quo of Black Vise banned is a majority attitude, and to make a good argument to get it unbanned one would need to demonstrate it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush80
The converse of Black Vise is The Rack, and in Dark Ritual decks discard is easier than forcing 7. The Rack barely sees play when it wrecks with Liliana. That should speak about how little play Black Vise will see.Quote:
Originally Posted by kusumoto
yall are missing the key factor. Black vise is usable immediately, and the rack requires several turns to dwindle their hand down. With black vise you can race them, and i bet black vise will race any most aggro strategys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
there are so many efficient bounce spells taht just erase the threat of aggro decks. devastation tide for one. and for control decks, Sunder... not to mention it fits pretty well into tezzeret decks already existing. Its be an auto include in RDW id think,
I think you'd be wrong. The only decks I'd put Vice in would be Prison, Stasis, or possibly some kind of old school Prosperity combo deck (similar to what got Vice Restricted in Vintage back in the day). It would be meh at best in RDW.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
Yes, I'd play it in exactly those decks. I even may put it in some Pox-like GB prison that'll be trimmed to play more of the "destroy target" than "target discards".Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox (yeah, but it keeps them from mana)
4 Iced Earth
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Life from the Loam
4 Trinisphere
4 Pulse/Putrefy
4 Black Vise
4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
4 Nether Void
lands
Because WotC cares about status quo. That's that they dropped the Restricted List, reprinted dual lands on a mass scale, and kept Survival of the Fittest unbanned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Status quo, ie, commonly used form of the original Latin "statu quo" – literally "the state in which". If your first statement is literal, then the suggestions you made afterwards would defeat it. If the first statement was in the absurdest parody, then why suggest things that WotC did not actually do that would defeat it? I feel like the emotion of your statement is clear, but the logic is giving me a headache.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Suffice to say that I feel WotC's involvement in Eternal Magic (Legacy and Modern) in the last half decade makes it abundantly clear that they would prefer it to be 'healthy' whatever that happens to mean. They have also expressed a clear desire to 'clean up' the banned lists to reflect a perspective with (now) 2 decades of history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
Bed Decks would play Abrupt Decay? But that was printed (counts internally...) 11 Months ago? So you support Hasbro/WotC up until February almost exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
Unless...
Guys! If they unban Vise, Bed Decks will take back everything he said and make up with WotCHasbro and be BFF's! :wink:
Never did I state that WotC cares about the status quo. If we're going to have an intelligent and well reasoned arguments in this thread, then the proof that something is safe to unban must come from those trying to get it unbanned, not for those that are claiming it is too powerful to be unbanned.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
It is like accusing that you stole from me, then demand that you show me how you didn't; which is absurd.
Sry dude, I don't have a smallest clue what's your post about. And I mean it literally - I simply don't understand it. Could you elucidate a bit? (If it's necessary...)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellomdian
So if I get this right...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple713
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiery Balrog
T1 land, Brainstorm? No offense to apple, but looks like FieryBalrog was right.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
/discussion
You want to discuss if apple is a bad player due to his statements? I think we should avoid evaluating each others skill like this. Such threads altough maybe entertaining surely cause bad kharma. :)
Also people (including myself) sometimes write nonsense, predict the meta wrong, exagerate or don't thing things through... that does not make them automatically bad players overall. measured by such a standard we would all suck.
No, I was trying to end the (3rd?) discussion of Vise because there are really no new arguments surfacing.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
I'm not saying apple is a bad player in general (hence "no offense apple"), just that it seems Fiery Balrog has won this particular debate. That quote shows he is clearly not always right about Magic, therefore making statements like "this is how it is. period" are invalid without providing adequate arguments.
The other argument made, conditional on a sol land and 2 Vices, is a low-probability opener and a low-probability deck build (what deck with Sol Lands wants Vices and not Chalice @ 1?), so is insufficient to warrant being too dangerous to unban. Broken opener is broken opener. Some decks can goldfish on turn 1. Meh.
And so /redundant Vise discussion
Koby,
You guys should do an Everyday Eternal episode on which cards are safe to unban. Either pick top 5 or pick from each color + colorless.
Wouldn't you be at eight?Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
I'd love to see vise unbanned because I <3 prison. I have no idea if it's safe or not, but it seems ok.
Please don't take my words out of context, and if you are going to quote me, quote me correctlyQuote:
Originally Posted by FTW
"just imagine a sol land deck that dropps 2 vises on their first turn. you start your turn at 14, then if you play a land and a brainstorm, which is probably the most common opening hand ever, you start your second turn at 10. "
Assume you are not playing the deck with vises and you are on the draw. During your Upkeep you take 6, draw for the turn, have 8 cards in hand. Drop a land (7 cards in hand) cast brainstorm, (still 7 cards). During your next upkeep you are actually at 8...not ten....even worse
Also, with brainstorm being the most played card in the format, Around 64% of decks use it, i think its safe to say its probably the most common t1 play I see.
the sol land example was just a mediocre example, and not even best cast scenario. Best case scenario would be much better but less likely. There are many situations where black vise gets you ahead in the life count far to quickly for 1 colorless mana. Absolutly wrecks control decks. puts a clock on combo because they are trying to race it while digging.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
IDC about it any more please move on to other cards....Didnt know there was that many previous discussions about this...there are 200+ pages that im not gonna preread
Dude no offense, but you didn't even understand why he quoted you on that. Playing Brainstorm T1 is almost always the wrong play, and there are two cases here:Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
- you play with really bad players overall who do one of the worst regarded play you could ever see, T1 brainstorm (that's probably worse than land bolt go)
or
- you don't actually play against legacy player and assume you'd want to play Brainstorm T1 because it's a 1 mana card. This is not a common play and i can think of no situations where T1 brainstorm is the correct play, unless i guess you are on the play and your opponent is going off on T1 and you really need that FoW.
What Black Vise do, Lava Spike do better, because that's how many average damage you'll get from it. 3 at best. Any Vise played past T1 is a dead draw and deal 0 damage. Every force on any T1 play make Vise useless for the rest of the game. An hypotetical card that said:
Visebolt R
Instant
Play this only first turn of the game
Deal 5 damage
would be terrible, and Vise is way worse in burn decks. Sol land-> 2x vise is also the worst possible play you make on a prison deck. T1 Chalice is autowin against a lot of decks, and you still don't see that because of consistency issues. Vise has far worse consistency issues.
Your examples also assume no counters, and no play for 2 consecutive turns. What kind of deck are you playing? You're just using extremely bad examples, and while doing so, also showing a pretty big inexperience in the format for someone that said "you should quit legacy if you don't understand why Vise should never ever be unbanned". Big statements require decent backup, not assertions about fantasy players that play T1 Brainstorm and say they actually play Legacy.
Your "i can't read 200 pages" also reeks of hypocrisy. Maybe before saying "no one should never ever say that Vise is safe to unban", you should've checked if someone actually said it? You know, in a topic about unbanning cards, by the way. There's a search function for a reason.
In short, you're making several wrong assumption, and i won't explain what those are because i don't want to degenerate the discussion into a personal argument. But please, next time, ponder more carefully what you're saying because no one here comes with the gift of omniscience and precognition, but we're here to discuss.
I am starting to miss the talk about banning SnT.
If T1 brainstorm is the play you encounter most, your environment is either full of combo or you need to find yourself a new playgroup. T1 brainstorm is as horrible as it gets in most cases and making a play like that makes you deserve the loss. It's in no way a common play when you play on a decent level.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
That is in no way an argument to keep vise banned.
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
And those are the only people worth considering about who cares about what. If WotC doesn't care, then it doesn't matter what the status quo thinks.
T1 Brainstorm is pretty bad, but T1 cantrip like Ponder or Preordain isn't that uncommon, especially in combo decks. And in those cases, you would keep 7 cards in hand for the next upkeep - just saying, without commenting whether Black Vise is safe or not.
Is Balance really the only "unbannable" white card on the list? Sickness...Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Mana Drain. Because... Counterspell?
Imperial Seal. Already discussed the up's and down's.
Worldgorger Dragon. Because Recruiter is TOO STRONK! (And who really cares about reanimator? Those guys smell funny...)
Earthcraft. I like squirrels. I just don't think it's stronger than say, Alluren.
Vise. Because if I pointed out that Mana Vault is dark ritual that produces colorless at the same card cost, I would be crucified.
Ban SnT - So I don't have to buy 4 for the damn invitational. F*$%& Mono-U Clash...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
There are only two cards safe to unban:Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Mind Twist
Earthcraft
Eliminating Ante and Dexterity cards, then P9; we need highly compelling and well reasoned arguments for why a card should be unbanned.
I could potentially see Frantic Search unbanned, but it would only fuel unfair blue strategies at the expense of the format. Not a good call in that respect.
Uh... what is your argument? WotC has shown they don't analyze Eternal formats for what should be done. Instead, they listen to the loud voices to gauge what should be done. If we can't come up with those arguments, then neither will WotC. You're discounting a lot of our opinions for opinions WotC doesn't even know they hold. It's not as if we're playing WotC's Legacy format. We're playing our own format and letting WotC sanction it. We are a huge thorn in WotC's side.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Pardon! I'm THE bad player! :mad: Look, my nick says it, and I even spelled it bed! :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
Just a small note: I once played some wannabe-pro in our lgs, a really that kind of pompous adolescent/man-in-his-early-twenties who knows everything and speaks fluently the MtG jargon. I played a T1 BS which was followed by his rant how bad play it is and how bad player I am and how this and that and how some dude I don't know who writes for a site I don't care about explained in an article I won't read how T1 BS is bed, bed idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Legacy Crowd
Needless to say, I won turn1 with PiF. And since then I made a habit of asking the guy in response to his loss if he has lost because he played turn1 BS.
Not that T1 BS ain't bad play, just...
Hm. Sounds good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
But I still gonna hoard Frantic Searches just in case...
unless im missing something, minds desire seems ok to unban. it doesn't seem like it would yield more wins or any better consistency than tendrils. I didn't play with it when it was legal so its possible im missing something.
if memory jar was not one sided it would probably be ok to unban but since your opponent never really gets to reap the rewards its "unfair".
If wheel of fortune was not splashable and was RRR instead of 2R then it would probably be an ok card.
Gush seems too slow to cast and if not cast it sets you back too many turns from land drops. It is Loosly comparable to thoughtcast.
I tend to think that Mind's Desire and Yawgmoth's Bargain relatively strong contenders for unban after Mind Twist and Earthcraft, after that, it gets a little stickier.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
Wheel of Fortune for :r::r::r: is still gross. It doesn't take that much imagination to put together a mono red deck that is more likely than not to either storm out or put together a lethal Molten Psyche.
The really twisted lines of play for Gush are things like using it as an 'untap' on turn 3 in some kind of combo/control deck, or in response to a Wasteland activation. Control-type stuff with Land Tax would probably also be obnoxious.
Gush 0Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
Instant
Awesome (this card can be pitched to force of Will and you can use islands... not really since it cost 0 but whatever)
When you play gush, add 1 mana of any color to your mana pool.
Counter target wasteland activation
Draw 2 cards.
"How awesome am i?"
ftfyQuote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
qftQuote:
Originally Posted by gheizen64
Balance unbanned? Chirst no that would be far far worse than most other cards on this list like mind twist. I think Nedleeds said it, that it would send creature strategies back to the stone ages
WotC has actually shown they are very conservative with banning cards which is a good thing. I think they have done a much better job at maintaining the Legacy banned list than anyone will give them credit for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Agreed. I haven't agreed with every single WotC decision with regards to B&R (basically, banning Mystical Tutor in 2020 before Miracles had existed as a mechanic--I agree it would be busted now), but they do a very good job and I'm much comfortable with their decisions over those of this forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
In terms of printing stupid permanents, however, R&D had a lot of explaining to do.
FYI - the "loud noises" I refer to are published articles, not murmurings in strategy forums. Generally putting a real name to a bold idea and getting an editor to agree to print is means you have a well enough reasoned argument for or against a card being banned.
Just stop while you are way way way behind, seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
I don't think you can unban Balance, but based on the criteria (one from each color) it is physically the only White card on the list. (Except Shahrazad, and that is effectively a 'Dex and Ante' card now.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
More an observation that an argument to unban.
My brain hurts. Tendrils just happens to be the card that wins you the game if you satisfy a certain criteria. Desire can not only be a Wincon (FREE SPELLS!) but it's the engine that gets you there - no one Tendrils into Tendrils like you can Desire into Desire...Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
Jar IS one sided, and an (effectively) one-sided draw7 at that. Nope, nothing inherently broken here!
But most of all, and the reason my brain is leaking out of my ears - Gush is absurd. I think RUG would immediately run 5. Gush should only ever set you back a land, as you play it before a land drop (that it guarantees,) it effectively draws you 3 instead of 2 (again, that land "stranded" in your hand, and it's not like Brainstorm or Jace is a card in Legacy,) it's a free spell (debatable as the most powerful mechanic ever, only ever arguably tied with Storm,) and on top of all, it happens to pitch to FoW and is protection from Wasteland. If Thoughtcast were printed as legal US Tender, on Gold Tablets, with the 11th and 12 commandments on it and a pony attached, it would still compare unfavorably to Gush. If anything, Gush compares unfavorably to Ancestral Recall.
And we used to complain about it in Limited. /sigh....
Mind's Desire isn't really a wincon, because you have to Mind's Desire into something that can actually win you the game; that's your win condition. When you cast Mind's Desire, your goal with it is to get your win condition, whatever it is, similar to when you cast Ad Nauseam. Tendrils of Agony, on the other hand, is a win condition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellomdian
The real comparison points for Mind's Desire should be Past In Flames and Ad Nauseam, not Tendrils of Agony.
Imperial Seal should be unbanned, cost be damned. Mind's Desire enables the win, but is not the win, think that could come off the ban list. Survival of the Fittest, trolling, because soo much grave hate, maybe to coincide with an [loud noises]ENCHANTMENT BLOCK[/loud noises] they let it off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
I disagree with Frantic Search for the stated reason. I would really like to see Windfall and Wheel of Fortune come off, but that's ludicrous, I know. I think because it's "balanced" it'd be ok, but it'd be broken in half by blue/storm/b. wish combo in an oppressive way to keep up an unfair strategy...
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...rces/sfrlegacy
Amulet of Quoz
Ancestral Recall
Balance
Bazaar of Baghdad
Black Lotus
Black Vise
Bronze Tablet
Channel
Chaos Orb
Contract from Below
Darkpact
Demonic Attorney
Demonic Consultation
Demonic Tutor
Earthcraft
Falling Star
Fastbond
Flash
Frantic Search
Goblin Recruiter
Gush
Hermit Druid
Imperial Seal
Jeweled Bird
Library of Alexandria
Mana Crypt
Mana Drain
Mana Vault
Memory Jar
Mental Misstep
Mind Twist
Mind's Desire
Mishra's Workshop
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Mystical Tutor
Necropotence
Oath of Druids
Rebirth
Shahrazad
Skullclamp
Sol Ring
Strip Mine
Survival of the Fittest
Tempest Efreet
Time Vault
Time Walk
Timetwister
Timmerian Fiends
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Vampiric Tutor
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Worldgorger Dragon
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will
For reference
What would we do without you...Quote:
Originally Posted by ahg113