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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WashableWater1
You make K command less good by always thinking about which modes they would use on the board. Playing patiently so that they have to make you discard, or have to just tap a mom, or wait until you have vial on 3. Why isn't the matchup bad? Although they play a lot of removal and maindeck artifact destruction, they're still playing a pretty slow 4 color blue deck with a bunch of 3 drops and cantrips. That offers you a lot of angles to apply pressure, such as keeping them off colors or developing a board while they pay 2 mana to cantrip. They only have a couple huge threats, Jace and Gurmag. They're very weak to Rest In Peace. They're extremely weak to Cataclysm. It's even because it comes down largely to how well then half of the deck you drew counters the half of deck they drew.
Why I like Finks against Czech Pile is because many games that I've played where you have a SoFi or SoLaS in play and who wins comes down to drawing one more creature than they draw removal spells. Kitchen Finks acts as 2 creatures in this game. It is weak to Deathrite and to Snapcaster, but I'm just sitting throwing ideas out there. I like a lot of what Kitchen Finks does bring to the table. I think that looking for the best White Knight is barking up the wrong tree. Attacking for 2 a turn vs 3 a turn is huge. In matchups that aren't Czech or maybe Delver for the lifelink Knight, you'll be playing a 3 mana 2/2. It will be the worst card in your deck by far. Mirran Crusader is great because at worst he attacks for 4. Playing a significantly weaker creature to beat 1 or possibly 2 bolts does not seem good enough to me. I've also been running into way more edicts than I used to, which sort of takes away that one reason you ran a Knight (it's unkillable). I would sort of like a better threat against Delver, but I've yet to figure out what it is.
What I mean by solid sideboarding is having a sideboard beat with Czech Pile in mind and not falling into card evaluation traps. I initially was sideboarding like I was playing a creature light midrange deck, leaving in 2 plows etc. it's pretty tough to suss out how good certain cards are, such as I'm still not sure if Revoker is good and Serra Avenger is bad, or if Councils Judgement isn't actually terrible. The traps that I've seen people fall into are playing Palace Jailer against Czech, or even bringing it in. I've put Gideon's in my sideboard because I thought they were going to be slam dunks that solved the creature problem. Im really happy with my current sideboard plan, but I'm not sure if it's actually optimal.
Playing patiently is how you lose this match-up. Excessively playing around one card could easily cost you the game that you could have won in 2-3 turns earlier. There is no way to play around these things without hand information. I think you are severely underestimating this match-up. Pretty much any blue deck will out-draw you. Siding in 2 Rest in Peace is great except this deck lacks any cantrips to find them reliably AND it's not always going to be impactful if you draw the card late (e.g shaman already activated a million times, Angler already on board, etc.). I know some people disagree but Cataclysm is not a reliable card at all.
You're saying Finks is better than Crusader or Paladin En-Vec in this match-up? Attacking for 3 sounds great if you're in magic christmas land and your opponent has no creatures on board. Your argument for Finks is it's like 2 creatures in one, except the whole point of Crusader and Paladin is to stay alive so these are way better value cards. And with equipment in the equation, it's just not even close that their protection ability will be way more relevant on offense and chaining equipment combat damage. Without equipment, you actually have a way to get around all the Baleful Strix / Shamans and block Gurmag Angler. We shouldn't be playing Finks just to get around Liliana, when it's not even in couple Czech Pile lists.
Of course you don't leave in the plow. I haven't seen people do this yet, with all the redundant threats it seems somewhat common sense. It's the same reason you don't side in Palace Jailer but if you've seen such people, shame on them I guess.
On a side note, anyone who *really* wants to improve the Delver and 4C Control match-up could just replace Rishadan Ports with Ghost Quarter. Ghost quarter is equivalent to Wasteland in these match-ups and is just way better than Port which requires you to be ahead in mana. Considering decks like Czech Pile run 8 dual lands, filling your deck with 8 wastelands is basically crippling as they run no basics.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
grayryker
Playing patiently is how you lose this match-up. Excessively playing around one card could easily cost you the game that you could have won in 2-3 turns earlier. There is no way to play around these things without hand information. I think you are severely underestimating this match-up. Pretty much any blue deck will out-draw you. Siding in 2 Rest in Peace is great except this deck lacks any cantrips to find them reliably AND it's not always going to be impactful if you draw the card late (e.g shaman already activated a million times, Angler already on board, etc.). I know some people disagree but Cataclysm is not a reliable card at all.
You're saying Finks is better than Crusader or Paladin En-Vec in this match-up? Attacking for 3 sounds great if you're in magic christmas land and your opponent has no creatures on board. Your argument for Finks is it's like 2 creatures in one, except the whole point of Crusader and Paladin is to stay alive so these are way better value cards. And with equipment in the equation, it's just not even close that their protection ability will be way more relevant on offense and chaining equipment combat damage. Without equipment, you actually have a way to get around all the Baleful Strix / Shamans and block Gurmag Angler. We shouldn't be playing Finks just to get around Liliana, when it's not even in couple Czech Pile lists.
Of course you don't leave in the plow. I haven't seen people do this yet, with all the redundant threats it seems somewhat common sense. It's the same reason you don't side in Palace Jailer but if you've seen such people, shame on them I guess.
On a side note, anyone who *really* wants to improve the Delver and 4C Control match-up could just replace Rishadan Ports with Ghost Quarter. Ghost quarter is equivalent to Wasteland in these match-ups and is just way better than Port which requires you to be ahead in mana. Considering decks like Czech Pile run 8 dual lands, filling your deck with 8 wastelands is basically crippling as they run no basics.
I do pretty well playing conservatively against Czech when the hand permits it. The only card I feel punishes you for going slow is Jace, taking an extra turn to set up a better position is totally worth it. Im talking from experience playing against it over and over in test games, leagues and paper events. I'm lifetime slightly favored but the matchup feels close to even
Czech now runs more Diabolic Edicts than Lightning Bolts, not to mention Marsh Casualties and Deluge. The narrative of those cards being immune to removal is a false one. Finks trades for two removal spells at best, and half of it trades for half a Snapcaster or Strix at worst. I'm not sure why Knights carry equipment better. They don't beat the "who draws more" problem. I think Crusader is probably the best card for that slot, I'm more interested in how a Finks can swing races against Delver. I couldn't think of much else that fit both matchups.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WashableWater1
I do pretty well playing conservatively against Czech when the hand permits it. The only card I feel punishes you for going slow is Jace, taking an extra turn to set up a better position is totally worth it. Im talking from experience playing against it over and over in test games, leagues and paper events. I'm lifetime slightly favored but the matchup feels close to even
Czech now runs more Diabolic Edicts than Lightning Bolts, not to mention Marsh Casualties and Deluge. The narrative of those cards being immune to removal is a false one. Finks trades for two removal spells at best, and half of it trades for half a Snapcaster or Strix at worst. I'm not sure why Knights carry equipment better. They don't beat the "who draws more" problem. I think Crusader is probably the best card for that slot, I'm more interested in how a Finks can swing races against Delver. I couldn't think of much else that fit both matchups.
Dude very few Czech Pile decks ever run lightning bolts because they favor a playset of fatal push. The deck is primarily Black and Blue, with small red and green splash, so a smart 4C control deck builder runs push over bolt. Diabolic edict isn't even in the same category as bolt but yes, many variants run ONE copy.
Nothing avoids an edict under the right conditions. But you're expecting a recurred 2/1 threat to be valuable? The value of Paladin/ Crusader is they can both attack through creatures and block them; they also don't die to virtually any spot removal from Czech Pile except the rare versions that run lightning bolt. With an equipment, they become exponentially more valuable. You either win with tempo or with card advantage in this match-up and Paladin/Crusader helps you enable this far better than Finks can.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
And what about this guy? Menace and flying that's tutorable. Obviously only in the red splash, but I like it there. Thoughts?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...7509710729.jpg
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
It's non-human, which makes it rough even in a red splash (assuming a Cavern-based manabase).
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Too weak to matter. Imo, these days, you need some form of built-in protection from removal to be considered for inclusion in D&T's main.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
@colo: That's not true at all. People play Serra Avenger; and what, is Mom just no longer good enough to fill the role of built-in protection?
I'm talking about using it in the same capacity as Kor Skyfisher (sans bounce) but being able to use the same Recruiter that grabs Flickerwisp.
@medea: Yes, I'm aware it's never coming in off a Cavern, but playing 1-2 Magus, 4 vial, 5-6 fetches and 1-2 Plateau (and I add a Mox Diamond as card 61 when I add a splash) seems like it's pretty reasonable to test.
Hopefully Iatee chimes in...
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
@colo: That's not true at all. People play Serra Avenger; and what, is Mom just no longer good enough to fill the role of built-in protection?
I'm talking about using it in the same capacity as Kor Skyfisher (sans bounce) but being able to use the same Recruiter that grabs Flickerwisp.
@medea: Yes, I'm aware it's never coming in off a Cavern, but playing 1-2 Magus, 4 vial, 5-6 fetches and 1-2 Plateau (and I add a Mox Diamond as card 61 when I add a splash) seems like it's pretty reasonable to test.
Hopefully Iatee chimes in...
The card is bad. And not because it dies to removal like colo said, which kind of doesn't matter because every flyer in this deck dies to most removals.
The reason Serra Avenger is playable is because vigilance is 10x more valuable than menace when coupled with flying. Being able to have evasion + play defense against small creatures is huge. Playing a deck with small weenies means you'll run into a lot of situations where you have to play defense whereas this dinosaur is a purely offensive card (and a weak one at that). The extra toughness and power also matters on both ends of offense and defense. Even if it was just a single white cost, it would be too weak to play. It's a slightly better Storm Crow (with a harder casting cost)... let that sink in a bit.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Thanks for your response. I disagree with a lot of what you say; I guess this is no different. I guess I will just playtest and come to my own conclusions. Carry on, gentlemen.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I wrote up a quick tournament report on a 25 person EW trial (the hurricane kind of hampered attendance). Even though it was small I'm posting it because I wrote it up. Ignore it if you care that much!
Decklist:
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Karakas
7 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
Sideboard (15)
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Path to Exile
2 Council's Judgment
2 Cataclysm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Rest In Peace
Round 1 - Czech Pile 2-1
Game 1. Lost. They were able to deal with my first couple threats, and by the time I was able to start developing a board I had taken too much damage from Gurmag and Tasigur to be able to come back. They had force for my Plow and a Bolt for my Crusader.
Game 2. Won. They kept a hand with 2ish lands and a couple cantrips. I was able to put down a Thalia, which they didn't immediately have a removal spell for. Stoneforge for SoFi and 2 Wastelands kept them locked down enough for an easy win.
Game 3. Won. I kept a slower hand. I played a turn 3 Prelate on 1 to lock out their removal and cantrips. Their mana was awkward enough that I was able to get the job done with 2 Serra Avengers.
-3 Revoker -4 Plow -1 Batterskull
+2 Rip +2 CJ +2Cataclysm +1 Prelate +1 SoLaS
Round 2 Lincoln Baxter Special, aka BUG Control with a lands package. 2-1
Game 1 - Lost. I kept a Cavern Vial Mom Thalia Plown type hand. After they Pernicious Deeded my board they got Loam online and had cabal pit and liliana to kill all my threats. I scooped to Cephalid Colloseum Leovold lock.
Game 2 - won. I kept one land double Vial, then never drew any lands. I was able to push through damage with Thalia and Crusader a turn or so before they could get anything really threatening going. RiP was in play the whole game and was great.
Game 3 - won. He kept a hand with awkward mana. I was able to develop a large board presence while he tried to get his deck to work, and he died before he could draw out of it. He ended up needing to play Jace as a Fog. Wasteland was an all star. RiP was great at shutting down Deathrite and Snapcaster.
+2 Cataclysm +2 RiP, +2 CJ +1 Prelate (Prelate was probably wrong)
-3 Revoker, -4 Plow,
Round 3 Burn 2-0
Game 1. Win. I keep a vial double mom Stoneforge hand. He kills one mom, kills another, but the EoT Stoneforge for Batterskull wins it.
Game 2. Win. I mulligan to 5. I play mom into Stoneforge. It's good enough. He was a newer player and told me that he wasn't prepared for the matchup.
-3 Revoker -1 SoFi
+2 CJ +1Prelate +1SoLaS
Round 4 Dragon Stompy. 2-1
Game 1. Win. I mulligan to 5 and keep plains plains Karakas 2 Flickerwisps. He makes a turn 1 Chalice. I play Karakas and he plays a blood moon. He ends up stuck on 2 mana while I kill him with 3/1s.
Game 2 lost. I keep a slow hand with a bunch of 3 drops and got overrun by a Chandra. He has Abrade for my first Revoker, Fiery Confluence for the second, and I'm not able to attack it down before it ultimates.
Game 3 win. he mulls to 5 and I play turn 2 Thalia. I beat him down with random idiots while porting and wasting him to death
+2 Cataclysm +2 CJ +2 Path
-4 Mom, -1 Prelate, -1 Mirran Crusader
Draw round 5 into the finals. Could have drawn my last round but I didn't do the math.
Quarterfinals Lands 2-1
Game 1. Lost. I keep a really slow hand that does nothing. I play moms revokers and Stoneforges, but I lose to a fast Marit Lage. I could have kept up a Plow instead of equipping sword, but I was on autopilot and didn't play around Crop rotation for that one turn. My bad.
Game 2. Win. I mulligan to 5, keeping 2 Plains mom Prelate Avenger. I leave a plains on top. I am able to flickerwisp a Marit Lage, which was all his hand did, and win quickly.
Game 3. Win Keep a 6 that has 2 cataclysms that I never need to cast. He opens with a Molten Vortex with no Loam. He never progresses past 3 lands.I have a Path for Marit Lage, Vial in an EoT flickerwisp to remove his Vortex then beat down with a second flickerwisp holding a sword until he dies.
+2 Cataclysm +2RIP +1 Prelate
-2 Stoneforge -1 Jitte -2 Crusader
Semi finals: Grixis Control. 2-0
Game 1. Win. I have a Vial Port draw. He pushes my mom, then bolts my Stoneforge which got a SoFi. I play SoFi on my turn 3, then EoT Vial in Recruiter for Crusader thinking he's on Czech. He waits until I equip ony turn to K Command SoFi, so I am able to protect it with a flickerwisp. He cantrips into air and the game ends quickly.
Game 2. Win. He had T1 Deathrite. He bolts my Thalia, my other Thalia, then snap bolts a Flickerwisp. He plays out a Tasigur and a Leovold. I play a Cataclysm, he ends up keeping DRS and a Badlands while I keep a Vial and a plains, sacrificing a Flagstones. I lay a third land and then I lay out a SoFi. The next turn I play Crusader equip. I kill him with a sword on a Crusader very quickly.
-3 Revoker -4 Plow -1 Batterskull
+2 Rip +2 CJ +2Cataclysm +1 Prelate +1 SoLaS
Finals: Split.
All in all I loved my build and my play. I misplayed hard and lost at least one game because of it. Cataclysm still ruins people's days, I felt mostly confidant with my boarding. I got lucky in getting mostly good matchups or matchups that favor the more familiar player.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
Thanks for your response. I disagree with a lot of what you say; I guess this is no different. I guess I will just playtest and come to my own conclusions. Carry on, gentlemen.
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My question regarding that card is this: why is it better than Leonin Skyhunter or Selfless Spirit?
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Do you just not agree that swinging through a single flyer to get jitte/sofi activations is worth something? I mean, that's how it's better than Skyhunter. Furthermore, it's an x/2, which means it lives through DoN, which selfless spirit (and most other creatures in DnT) do not. Selfless Spirit isn't a contender for this deck in my humble opinion because he is only good in silly situations where you have seemingly overextended. I have only had incredibly overextended board-states in the mirror or vs. Elvesfor the most part, and it doesn't seem like a game-changer in those MU's, as board wipes aren't really a thing in those matchups.
I understand he doesn't seem like much, and granted he doesn't do anything for the Mono-White builds, but my thought is that in non-Imperial W/r Taxes (I dislike imperial recruiter due to him being unable to tutor Flickerwisp, as well as his imperial price tag), he is worth running in the Kor Skyfisher slot. I understand he doesn't bounce, but I think I'm okay with just the double evasion with basically guaranteed equipment triggers while being fine against Delver.
Obviously I could be wrong, and I am happy to acknowledge that, but he feels like value, and I guess I'll let you know how he pans out for me.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
Thanks for your response. I disagree with a lot of what you say; I guess this is no different. I guess I will just playtest and come to my own conclusions. Carry on, gentlemen.
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If you disagree, feel free to point it out what you think I'm wrong about.
Your argument seems to revolve around "he can always get equipment triggers" and that's a weak point. Why? Because having menace on a flyer is complete overkill when evasion will get the job done 90%+ of the time. Placing the card in a very theoretical scenario "if he has one Delver + he has no removals + I have Jitte equipped to this creature and really need the trigger, this card is awesome" is, I would argue, proving it's a bad card. In most cases, he is just a worse flyer than Kor Skyfisher, Vryn Wingmare, Flickerwisp, and Serra Avenger. I probably wouldn't expect Menace to be relevant in 1/100 games; what I would expect is the casting cost and 2 power/toughness to matter in far more games and therefore, he actually might even be worse than Leonin Skyhunter which is a terrible card. Like I said, the vigilance on Serra Avenger is actually a deal breaker and not a mere novelty when racing creature decks like TNN decks and the mirror. The 3 toughness means you can't recruit it but it means Serra Avenger is one your best cards against Lands and other punishing fire/ molten vortex decks. Also, you should consider evaluating this card without any equipment on board... then it's also quite obvious it's mediocre.
If he was easier to cast than any of these creatures, he'd still be bad but he's arguably harder to cast this an any of them even in a red build. That in itself should be a deal breaker.
On a side note, selfless spirit is not really suitable for DnT considering most boardwipes are counters based. But it's still better than the dinosaur. It's not only a board protection but also the indestructibility is relevant in combat, as you can block with all your creatures and sac before combat damage. Not saying you should play the card though...
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2 Attachment(s)
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Attachment 332
Attachment 333
What do you guys think of this as tech against Czech Pile? Once you get the land flipped, you can fart out a dude every turn to deal with their spot removal. Plus they have lifelink which could be reliant against burn and U/R Prowess/delver. I think its worth testing.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
You can't expect to attack with 3 creatures against a deck filled with removal.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
If you really think you need the token-producing effect, Kjeldoran Outpost will probably do you more good than this. (Also combos with Magus of the Moon now. Yay!)
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
colo
"combos" with magus of the moon. Sure, now I don't have to sacrifice my plains so long as I turn of the card im playing with my own moon effect. Such synergy.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
@greyryker: I'm uninterested in squabbling, I simply said I disagree, thanked you for your opinion, and said I would test it. I'll leave it at that.
Perhaps I'll bring it up again when testing shows a consensus one way or another.
There's a good chance that this fulfills a need for me that others don't feel they have.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LyleCInDaHouse
Attachment 332
Attachment 333
What do you guys think of this as tech against Czech Pile? Once you get the land flipped, you can fart out a dude every turn to deal with their spot removal. Plus they have lifelink which could be reliant against burn and U/R Prowess/delver. I think its worth testing.
There are more reliable cards that do the same thing for the czech pile matchup. Gideon, AoZ is already in the deck filling that role, and you could go to things like Heliod, God of the Sun if you wanted something they couldn't take off the table.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Does the new 1/1 Vampire enter the Mystic Crusader / Fiendslayer Paladin discussion?
Adanto Vanguard 1W
Vampire Soldier
As long as ~ is attacking, it gets +2/+0
Pay 4 life: ~ Becomes indestructible until end of turn
1/1
Similarly to the other cards:
- It's immune to Bolt/Push/Kolaghan's Command/Decay
- You can recruiter for it
- It can attack into everything (Strix, Leo, DRS) that isn't a TNN and win (I guess Mystic Crusader can fly over that if you have threshold).
Pros
- Only 2 mana
- Maybe in other matchups indestructibility is more useful than color protection (like the mirror, but maybe Mirran Crusader is better there)
- Immune to Kozilek's Return, and I guess Walking Ballista (although that card will probably make you run out of life very quickly)
Cons
- Dies to Dismember/Marsh Casualties/Dread of Night
- Not a human (although Cavern on Soldier might be okay in some spots)
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kombatkiwi
Does the new 1/1 Vampire enter the Mystic Crusader / Fiendslayer Paladin discussion?
Adanto Vanguard 1W
Vampire Soldier
As long as ~ is attacking, it gets +2/+0
Pay 4 life: ~ Becomes indestructible until end of turn
1/1
Similarly to the other cards:
- It's immune to Bolt/Push/Kolaghan's Command/Decay
- You can recruiter for it
- It can attack into everything (Strix, Leo, DRS) that isn't a TNN and win (I guess Mystic Crusader can fly over that if you have threshold).
Pros
- Only 2 mana
- Maybe in other matchups indestructibility is more useful than color protection (like the mirror, but maybe Mirran Crusader is better there)
- Immune to Kozilek's Return, and I guess Walking Ballista (although that card will probably make you run out of life very quickly)
Cons
- Dies to Dismember/Marsh Casualties/Dread of Night
- Not a human (although Cavern on Soldier might be okay in some spots)
4 life seems way too much for this card to be playable. Against Czech Pile it might be okay but against any other creature based match-up... not being able to play defense without losing life is a huge deal.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Take this with a grain of salt, as it is an untested idea I had while thinking about ways of improving the Czech Pile match-up, but has anyone considered going deep on a Green splash with Ramunap Excavator? The idea here would be taking out Recruiter (which unfortunately can't tutor for Excavator), and 2 other creatures for a full playset of Excavator, replacing Rishadan Port with Ghost Quarter and playing some number of Horizon Canopy as a combined GW source/card advantage engine. Is this a stupid shower thought or does it merit actual testing?
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheStalk
Take this with a grain of salt, as it is an untested idea I had while thinking about ways of improving the Czech Pile match-up, but has anyone considered going deep on a Green splash with Ramunap Excavator? The idea here would be taking out Recruiter (which unfortunately can't tutor for Excavator), and 2 other creatures for a full playset of Excavator, replacing Rishadan Port with Ghost Quarter and playing some number of Horizon Canopy as a combined GW source/card advantage engine. Is this a stupid shower thought or does it merit actual testing?
actually seems like a valid idea. You could also gain Knight of the Reliquary from the green splash to tutor up your wastelands. And Shaper's Sanctuary makes all their spot removal seem like trash garbage since it draws you cards. You could probably add Teeg and Renegade Railer too depending on how much green you add.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheStalk
Take this with a grain of salt, as it is an untested idea I had while thinking about ways of improving the Czech Pile match-up, but has anyone considered going deep on a Green splash with Ramunap Excavator? The idea here would be taking out Recruiter (which unfortunately can't tutor for Excavator), and 2 other creatures for a full playset of Excavator, replacing Rishadan Port with Ghost Quarter and playing some number of Horizon Canopy as a combined GW source/card advantage engine. Is this a stupid shower thought or does it merit actual testing?
I think it's a different deck, but not a bad idea. Have you checked out the Two Green thread in developing?
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
You basically just turned this into Maverick.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheStalk
Take this with a grain of salt, as it is an untested idea I had while thinking about ways of improving the Czech Pile match-up, but has anyone considered going deep on a Green splash with Ramunap Excavator? The idea here would be taking out Recruiter (which unfortunately can't tutor for Excavator), and 2 other creatures for a full playset of Excavator, replacing Rishadan Port with Ghost Quarter and playing some number of Horizon Canopy as a combined GW source/card advantage engine. Is this a stupid shower thought or does it merit actual testing?
It's been discussed before - an interesting engine but not the best fit here. Like Bee said, it's basically Maverick because that deck utilizes Excavator much better than this deck does.
I would say any new cards that gets added to this deck has to do either one of two things: improves the combo match-ups or the removal heavy control match-ups like Czech Pile. I feel the power level of the deck has gone down because the answers are becoming more efficient than the threats (fatal push and kolaghan's command comes to mind). Hell Tarmogoyf isn't even being played anymore. Stoneforge Mystic gets destroyed by K-Command and cabal therapy. The reason why I play Chalice is because it serves both as removal protection, valuable disruption, and hoses combo on x=0 or x=1, as well as being a late game x=2. Kolaghan's command is still a beating though.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LyleCInDaHouse
"combos" with magus of the moon. Sure, now I don't have to sacrifice my plains so long as I turn of the card im playing with my own moon effect. Such synergy.
I guess I should have quoted the "Yay!" to properly signal the sarcasm involved.
Otoh, with proper sequencing and Dark Depths instead of Outpost, Marit Lage is only a Flickerwisp on Magus away...
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheStalk
Take this with a grain of salt, as it is an untested idea I had while thinking about ways of improving the Czech Pile match-up, but has anyone considered going deep on a Green splash with Ramunap Excavator? The idea here would be taking out Recruiter (which unfortunately can't tutor for Excavator), and 2 other creatures for a full playset of Excavator, replacing Rishadan Port with Ghost Quarter and playing some number of Horizon Canopy as a combined GW source/card advantage engine. Is this a stupid shower thought or does it merit actual testing?
See the list at the bottom of my article. That's a good starting point.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
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Field of Ruin
Land
T: Add C to your mana pool
2, T, Sacrifice Field of Ruin: Destroy target nonbasic land. Each player searches his or her library for a basic land card and puts it onto the battlefield, then shuffles his or her library.
An imho rather interesting 5th Wasteland - with D&T's number of basics, compared to most of the field, this could quite realistically 0-for-1 the opponent. Cool stuff!
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
This card seems really good. I dunno how exactly it could fit into our manabase, but against Delver decks or decks that already fetched their 1-2 basics, it's a Wasteland with card advantage attached.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
What's up with some of the random cards that people have suggested for the 4c Control matchups? The matchup is difficult but this deck has a lot of the tools it needs to win that matchup postboard without playing random things. The best cards in the MU are things that generate incremental value i.e. Palace Jailer/Gideon and P&K if you are running the red splash. If you really want to beat you need to retool your sideboard to play these cards but at the same time it's coming at a cost of some other matchups.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
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Originally Posted by
CptHaddock
What's up with some of the random cards that people have suggested for the 4c Control matchups? The matchup is difficult but this deck has a lot of the tools it needs to win that matchup postboard without playing random things. The best cards in the MU are things that generate incremental value i.e. Palace Jailer/Gideon and P&K if you are running the red splash. If you really want to beat you need to retool your sideboard to play these cards but at the same time it's coming at a cost of some other matchups.
The deck doesn't have the consistency to find such sideboard cards. Even for things like Palace Jailer, we're playing 3 copies at the most if we're playing 2 Recruiter of the Guards. Maintaining Monarch is also risky in this match-up so Gideon is easily the better option, except chances are you might not even draw it. I don't think P&K is that good in this match-up... it's usually half a Lingering Souls. There aren't any "I win" cards against Czech Pile which is difficult because they have plenty of such cards in the main against us. Probably the closest thing to such a card would be Magus of the Moon.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
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Originally Posted by
grayryker
The deck doesn't have the consistency to find such sideboard cards. Even for things like Palace Jailer, we're playing 3 copies at the most if we're playing 2 Recruiter of the Guards. Maintaining Monarch is also risky in this match-up so Gideon is easily the better option, except chances are you might not even draw it. I don't think P&K is that good in this match-up... it's usually half a Lingering Souls. There aren't any "I win" cards against Czech Pile which is difficult because they have plenty of such cards in the main against us. Probably the closest thing to such a card would be Magus of the Moon.
I'm not saying that you should play singletons of each of these cards especially if you are running the bare minimum number of recruiters. Maintaining monarch isn't really difficult in the matchup. They play a total 13-14 creatures and you should somewhat be controlling the board when monarch comes down. Obviously playing Monarch in a behind board state is probably a bad idea but in general you are going to force them to either attack unprofitably or play out a snapcaster mage when they didn't want to. P&K is basically a lingering souls with upside, if you ever get karakas + them active it is not hard to take over a game. They demand an immediate answer and if your opponent doesn't have one, they're very far behind. If you take a look at the person who did well with mon
I don't think there are any I win tools in this matchup either unless you somehow find a way to land a turn 1 blood moon each game. Cards like rip are also very good.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
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Originally Posted by
CptHaddock
What's up with some of the random cards that people have suggested for the 4c Control matchups? The matchup is difficult but this deck has a lot of the tools it needs to win that matchup postboard without playing random things. The best cards in the MU are things that generate incremental value i.e. Palace Jailer/Gideon and P&K if you are running the red splash. If you really want to beat you need to retool your sideboard to play these cards but at the same time it's coming at a cost of some other matchups.
Czech is a newer deck thst we've got around a 50/50 matchup against, and it feels like it could be bettet, so it's worth thinking about new and different ways to approach it and attack it. Most of these ideas are bad or ultimately not worth running in an open field. That being said, brainstorming new ideas can't hurt. It's how I ended up on Cataclysm, which is the closest thing to a instant win card that we have access to now. The old ways that Taxes would beat control and midrange (i.e. Gideon or Palace Jailer) are significantly less potent against Czech Pile. Gideon dies much easier, and Palace Jailer, in my opinion, makes you more likely to lose.
Right now the two things that I want to improve about the deck are the Czech Pile and Grixis Delver matchups. Both feel like they're close to 50/50 but they should be favorable. It's possible that there exists a build of Taxes that's slightly favorable against both. Let's find it.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
If I'm not wrong that is the reason for an increasing number of Main deck Spirit of the Labyrinth, some using even like 3 on MD, and decreasing 1 beater like Serra if you have 2 or Mirran and a Phyrexian Revoker. SotL is pretty good against grixis because of all draw shenanigans like probe for Young Pyromancer and it closes Leovold C.A and other stuff...
Not sure if that is the right movement, but I guess Spirit is much better at these matchups than Revoker, even though I see it much better against delver than Czech Pile
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
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Originally Posted by
Raizen884
If I'm not wrong that is the reason for an increasing number of Main deck
Spirit of the Labyrinth, some using even like 3 on MD, and decreasing 1 beater like Serra if you have 2 or Mirran and a Phyrexian Revoker. SotL is pretty good against grixis because of all draw shenanigans like probe for Young Pyromancer and it closes Leovold C.A and other stuff...
Not sure if that is the right movement, but I guess Spirit is much better at these matchups than Revoker, even though I see it much better against delver than Czech Pile
The problem that I've always had with Spirit is that he's an x-1 and dies to a Deathrite or Elemental token. I sort of consider Sanctum Prelate to be the final nail in Spirits coffin, in that he shuts down the most played draw spells. That being said, Revoker is certainly worse than he has been in a long while with miracles gone. I could see trying out Spirits again.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
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Originally Posted by
CptHaddock
I'm not saying that you should play singletons of each of these cards especially if you are running the bare minimum number of recruiters. Maintaining monarch isn't really difficult in the matchup. They play a total 13-14 creatures and you should somewhat be controlling the board when monarch comes down. Obviously playing Monarch in a behind board state is probably a bad idea but in general you are going to force them to either attack unprofitably or play out a snapcaster mage when they didn't want to. P&K is basically a lingering souls with upside, if you ever get karakas + them active it is not hard to take over a game. They demand an immediate answer and if your opponent doesn't have one, they're very far behind. If you take a look at the person who did well with mon
I don't think there are any I win tools in this matchup either unless you somehow find a way to land a turn 1 blood moon each game. Cards like rip are also very good.
How do you control the board when they're removing cards left and right with 2-for-1s? Toxic Deluge, K-command, Snapcaster Mage, Liliana multiple edicts, 4 Baleful Strix, etc. This is what makes Monarch difficult to maintain. I've played the match from both ends of the table and Czech Pile is definitely 60/40 at least. The way you win this match-up is they have a slow hand + you have a decent mana denial hand or you get stoneforge mystic out early and they don't have a K-Command.
Why do people always talk about P&K and Karakas in the same sentence? The probability that you'll have both on the table is very low. It's not even a guaranteed win condition if you pull it off. It's also a card that requires heavy red investment, which is why a lot of RW builds don't play it. I feel like most of my disagreements with people here is they severely overestimate the probability of their gameplan (e.g turn 1 vial turn 2 thalia + wasteland seems to happen most games in their mind).
You don't need a turn 1 blood moon. They basically lose to blood moon in the late game unless you can't answer their threats (none of which except Jace is too difficult to deal with). Rest in Peace is okay in this match-up but is a mixed bag because it's terrible if you draw it late.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
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Originally Posted by
Raizen884
If I'm not wrong that is the reason for an increasing number of Main deck
Spirit of the Labyrinth, some using even like 3 on MD, and decreasing 1 beater like Serra if you have 2 or Mirran and a Phyrexian Revoker. SotL is pretty good against grixis because of all draw shenanigans like probe for Young Pyromancer and it closes Leovold C.A and other stuff...
Not sure if that is the right movement, but I guess Spirit is much better at these matchups than Revoker, even though I see it much better against delver than Czech Pile
I've seen some lists that play SoL but honestly, the card is so bad. I laugh when people talk about "oh but you can vial it in response to their brainstorm" when the card does nothing in way too many match-ups and scenarios.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
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Originally Posted by
colo
An imho rather interesting 5th Wasteland - with D&T's number of basics, compared to most of the field, this could quite realistically 0-for-1 the opponent. Cool stuff!
let me introduce you to my friend ghost quarter
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Is anyone making the trip to EE7 this weekend?
