Printable View
From the 120 person Dutch Legacy Championship:
Quarter-Finalist: Ivo Koolhaas
Deckname: Red Deck Wins
Maindeck:
2 Tephraderm
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Arc-Slogger
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Umezawa?s Jitte
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
3 Blood Moon
10 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Seething Song
4 Chrome Mox
Sideboard:
3 Ingot Chewer
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tephraderm
2 Trinisphere
4 Tormod?s Crypt
1 Blood Moon
Do you have the decklists from the result of the Top 8?Quote:
Originally Posted by QQQ
I will post them in the tournament section :)
How do you guys think about Avarax in the Gathan Raiders slot? I guess he would mean more pressure for the opponent....
The answer is a definitive no. Gathan Raiders is the single best creature in the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by scion
As far as Avarax in place of anything, it's still no. Considering very often you only hit :3::r::r: with Seething Song or SSG or Pre Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon, your odds of chaining into 3/3's are slim. And even if you do, it's kind of an underwhelming goal to try to achieve.
So what are the SB's for this deck looking like? Defense Grids? Crypts and Kegs? Is there anyway Taco or Phantom (or others that are piloting the deck) to post their SB's? Thanks in advance.
Mine is in the opening post, and hasn't really changed any since I haven't been able to test Defense Grid. I prefer kegs to clasm in the 'goyf era, but certain people may find otherwise. Ingot Chewer is a tough call for me, as he is pretty narrow compared to something like Keg, which may be eating his spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anarky87
Taco, or anyone else have thoughts on Grid? If it's solid I'll squeeze it in for Demonfire (which is really more of a maindeck card if you're going to run it I've found).
At the moment, and when I say "At the moment" I mean "Right as of this second without any complete commitment to keeping it as such because I'm still testing," my sideboard is:Quote:
Originally Posted by Anarky87
4 Pithing Needle
4 Pyroclasm
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Trinisphere
With Trinisphere having been cut from my maindeck in favor of more threats and a full eight Blood Moons, which has skyrocketed the consistency of my draws and manabase at the cost of, well, not having Trinisphere and all that entails.
Keg isn't finding room. It's good, yes, but its competition is better. With its absence, I'm fully aware the deck has absolutely no way to clear an artifact off the board, and I'm okay with that. Pyroclasm and Pithing Needle deal with most of what Powder Keg deals with.
Defense Grid almost has to be a metagame call. It and Trinisphere don't play together well, as their Grid costs can work towards their Trinisphere costs. Trinisphere isn't anywhere near as good as Defense Grid against heavily blue decks, but that's all Grid is good at, whereas Trinisphere stops Storm Combo and can on occasion randomly win a game against anything when you're on the play. However, if I expected about half blue in a metagame, with high amounts of MUC, Landstill, Solidarity, or Threshold, I'd certainly pick Grid. I value it high enough that I'm currently hunting a set to go in my "Possible Sideboard Options" box.
First off, props on the deck. It looks quite interesting, and I'm always fond of seeing red decks that are competative.
Second, has anyone tested out Fledgling Dragon? I ask because I see no mention of it anywhere in the thread. With cards like City of Traitors, Seething Song, Razorcore, and the Raiders, it would seem like thresh would be fairly easy to attain, and you wouldn't need to constantly sink RR into the Fledgling every turn to give it flying/evasion. Also, Razorcore seems like a really strong card right now, but it severely lacks synergy when trying to maintain hellbent (which is when RPD really "shines").
Thresh is actually not as easy to obtain as you would think, and Pit Dragon is so much better than fledgling its not even funny. Doublestrike on Hell-bent usually just wins you the game.
That is pretty surprising. What turn do you reach thresh on avarage? I know Chrome Mox/SSG don't really help, but they seem to be out-numbered by cards that would/do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zork
Have you actually tested it, or are you merely running off theory here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zork
I guess Fledgling's strength would really depend on the list (I see some running little/no Razorcores/SOFIs at all).
He's got evasion at no added cost, so he carries SOFI/Jitte well. He's still pumpable (with thresh), and he's more synergistic with Razorcore by not necessarily forcing you to over-extend into hellbent.
I guess if your main goal is to over-extend into hellbent, then RPD would be a bit better; however, if you want to take advantage of SOFI & Razorcore then Fledgling would seem to fill the role with a bit more synergy.
Add in a bit of pumping, and that doesn't surprise me one bit (if you can pull it off without hindrance).Quote:
Originally Posted by Zork
This is not the deck to play cards with Threshold. The only card that you can put into the yard by yourself is Seething Song.
If you have drawn 1 Seething Song that means that your opponent has to destroy or counter 6 of your spells and permanents (not Swording them). Usually that won't happen before turn ~10, especially because you try to keep the opponent from playing spells with Moons, Chalices and 3-Spheres.
Well, the build I run usually gets thresh only if my opponent destroys or counters my permanents. Otherwise, the only cards that beef the yard are Gathan Raiders, Seething Song, and City (unless I moon). Goldfishing I usually hit thresh past turn 10, and against an opponent it depends on him.
The reason I haven't tested Fledgling is just because Hell-bent is easier to get than thresh (and is also not reliant on my opp), and because RPD is better all around than Fledgling. Unthreshed and unbent, Pit Dragon can fly and pump, while Fledgeling just flies. Threshed and Pumped, Pit Dragon hits twice (better with equips) and pumps for 2 off one mana.
If you were thinking about running him in one of the other slots, you'd have to cut either Slogs, Magus, or Gathan Raiders, and I just can't see doing that. He's a great creature, but he isn't better than what we already run.
Like said above other than Seething Song (and the occasional City of Traitors), you never put stuff in the yard unless one of your threats is answered, I dont know how anyone whos ever even goldfished the deck can think thresh would be obtainable at all...
"Never"? So I take it you don't run Raiders, or Razorcore then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bovinious
Again, I'm not saying Fledgling is the optimal choice for any/all lists; I was merely asking if anyone had actually tested it. If you havn't... a simple "no" would suffice.
@Zork
Thanks for putting a bit of thought into your response.
Quick question: I notice that some lists run SOFI; however, if a hellbent RPD, equiped with SOFI, deals its "first strike" damage, does it then lose it's "normal" strike (along with any attacking Raiders' +2/+2s durring their "normal" attacks) due to the card drawn? My gut says yes.
I run Raiders but not Razorcore, and no I havnt tested it but I have tested the deck and know threshold is very hard to get, and by turn 15 I think I could do better with a hellbent RPD.
EDIT:
I think you would lose hellbent yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by redmage
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by redmage
We haven't tested Roc of Kher Ridges, either, who I think would be strictly better than Fledgling Dragon in this deck.
If you get Threshold in Dragon Stompy, you lost. It's that simple. I've frequently won the game without a single card hitting my graveyard (Although having an enormous RFG Zone.) By the time you get seven in the yard, you failed to hurt your opponent in the first eight to fifteen turns it took you to get it, and you won't recover.
I'm currently testing a "maniac doll" deck to which I have given the same shell as dragon stompy. I don't know if it's worth making a new thread just for it, so I'll post it here.
12 mountains
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 stuffy doll
4 simian spirit guide
4 volcano hellion
4 mogg maniac
3 flametongue kavu
4 magus of the moon
3 trinisphere
3 earthquake
4 chalice of the void
4 seething song
3 chrome mox
Basically, the idea of the deck is to get a doll or a maniac out and to play hellion / kavu / earthquake on them (alternatively, they make great blockers). If you don't hit them, then you just play in a normal dragon stompy way (but with worse creatures, admitedly).
I must say that at the very least, this is fun to play. You can make some really broken plays, too. I just did T1 mountain + mox + maniac, T2 attack with maniac, drop a city and a hellion (-19 to both players) --> gg.
The sideboard is similar to the normal dragon stompy ones.
I must say that I'm not a specialist of dragon stompy, and not a very big tournaments player either. I mostly play on local tournaments with budget decks, and this explains some of my choices.
Has anyone tried Shivan Wumpus? In a decklist running 4 Trinisphere it can be deadly: first turn trini followed by turn-after-turn wumpus tells your opponent "lose all your lands or deal with a 6/6 beast".
The downfall is that sometimes you topdeck it and it's just a stone rain since your opponent can deal with sacrificing a land - maybe a "mountained" one.
The downfall is exactly as you say it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malhavoc
From someone who ran Green Land Destruction for a long time and to great success in the "Old 1.5", I had a lot of experience with his twin, Argothian Wurm. Argothian Wurm was fantastic if my mana denial had been successful, and lost me the game if it hadn't. He was when I started really learning what "Win More" meant.
In Dragon Stompy, this guy is terrible. Against control, where you need a threat, this guy isn't a threat, he's a Stone Rain. And if you've shut off a dual or two via Blood Moon, that'll be the land that goes. Similarly, if they're holding an STP/Edict, your Wumpus is going to resolve, and they'll kill it.
Any card that gives your opponent the final choice probably doesn't have a place in Legacy. The chief example of this offense is Browbeat. I've had literally close to a hundred different people argue to me how Browbeat was a wonderful card, about how they'd either get to draw three or deal five to the opponent. And it's not. It's a terrible card, because if either one of these choices are one the opponent could deal with, they'll pick that. And if they can't deal with either choice, then any card which either just dealt damage or just drew cards would be equally satisfactory. And any time you cast it, unless your opponent is an idiot, it will always do its weaker effect.
From recent (12/1) tournament
Quote:
Originally Posted by Afro
BTW, I've seen in one of the early posts a report of a tournament where the deck lost just to a a burn deck, which puzzled someone. From my experience against burn, I have to say that even if pre side chalice and jitte almost assure a win, post side things go really a different way: chalice, jitte, and even trinisphere are all easy targets of shattering spree (which even under trini can be paid with RRR to target three things.. sometimes even our moxen).
Yeah, to even think about Wumpus we would need a much more dedicated mana denial strategy (I would think at least 4 Trinis/Stone Rains/Avalanche Riders). Basically, you need to make sure his drawback is almost never a drawback.
As to what Taco said, I was trying to explain this to a buddy last night (while drunk). It's a principle I really only came to grasp about a year ago (ironically after testing Browbeat in DS and Burn) and I came up with an interesting thought: How useful would Fact or Fiction be if the player who cast it chose the piles and the opponent who decided which pile would be kept? I don't know that the card would be unplayable, but I'm sure it's power level would drop immensely.
@Malhavoc: Yeah the burn matchup is almost an autowin, but he managed to get completely screwed. Happens sometimes.
See Truth or Tale. It is exactly the reverse FoF you described, costs 1U and isnt playable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom
Not exactly. Truth or Tale only gives you 1 card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bovinious
For the Burn MU: It is quite even postboard, because of Shattering Spree and Sulfuric Vortex.
It would be unplayable to me in any deck I would otherwise play Fact or Fiction in. I would switch to Gifts Ungiven or Meditate in Landstill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom
However I might try it in Solidarity where the chances of me thoroughly outthinking my opponent are great. This doesn't mean I'd approve of the card in principle, as choice cards are only bad if your opponent doesn't make mistakes. However, I'm fairly confident that if said card existed, I could force my opponent into a fair amount of mistakes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malhavoc
You are both seriously tripping. Or rather, Malhavoc's tripping and Tsabo's only tripping if he's implying the matchup is even rather than that an individual game might be even postboard. In either case, I'd say Burn and DS are about even if and only if Burn is postboard and is going first.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsabo_tavoc
First of all, Chalice of the Void and Jitte aside, Dragon Stompy has about the same goldfish kill time as Burn does. Uninterrupted, Burn kills at turn four on average, with a few more threes than fives. Ditto for Dragon Stompy. Therefore, as long as you're running the appropriate magnitude of threats and deny Burn the chance to try to switch into being a control deck briefly, you're racing without factoring in Chalice and Jitte.
Second of all, Burn doesn't get Shattering Spree and Sulfuric Vortex until game 2. Game 1 is probably about 75-25 or 80-20 Dragon Stompy, which is about as good as a Chalice Aggro deck will ever get due to its ability to randomly lose 15% against a Precon via manabase problems. Then, even when they get said cards, Burn has to draw the Shattering Spree. Last I checked, most Burn builds run no draw, and the few that run Baubles still don't have much. Even then, the turn Burn takes to Shattering Spree your Trinisphere/Chalice/Jitte is a turn they aren't killing you while your threat is eating their face off.
Third of all, goop goo @ Sulfuric Vortex. This is a terrible choice for Burn to board in in this matchup, because most builds of DS aren't running but 2-3 Jittes anyway, and Sulfuric Vortex is a heavily costed spell in a matchup of this speed. The other neat thing? Jitte still rocks with Sulfuric Vortex on the table, just a little less so. It's just an extra four a turn in a damage race. And you get even more benefit from the fact they spent three mana to get a mere 2 damage ahead in said race.
But seriously, Burn isn't a bad matchup if you don't even ever draw a Chalice or a Jitte. Though sometimes it will just be burn and randomly beat anything.
Just a thought .Has anyone triyed phyrexian ironfoot ? he is really big a 3/4 with a small drawback which can be cancelled with snow covered mountain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
That's all that has really been said on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
hmmm.... Dragon Stompy seems to be a very interesting deck that I have played around with for a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by QQQ
How good is tephraderm? also, what is the gameplan against swords? I guess theres always the chalice for 1 and 3sphere. But I've found that swords ruins creature that we invested much many into.
Also, is winter orb good enough to consider? I've tried it, and with the trinisphere out, its just a brutal beating for most decks.
First turn gathan raiders morph, second turn winter orb, swing, third turn trinisphere = gg pretty much.
And shivan wumpus is horrible, its not a significant threat, they will either laugh at it and sack a land, or let it resolve, laugh again and throw a swords at it. Our threats are only so easy to play, there not really garuntee that we will be able to play them again.
But other than that, I really like the deck and think its really competitive. Guillarme Wafo-Tapa was running it pretty well at worlds.
Wafo-Tapa was also running Rorix Bladewing, according to the feature match coverage.Quote:
Originally Posted by No_One411
Seems sub par, but maybe it's better than it looks on paper. 6 mana is a bummer, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by etrigan
Yeah, so's RRR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mental
How good would Fire Imp be in the deck? or is FTK just better?
And burning wish?
I think Flametongue Kavu is better in this deck (Though Fire Imp might be stronger in a deck like Survival), as FTK hits a lot of different things and is flat-out a bigger threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by C.P.
As for Burning Wish, it's a possibility. I haven't really explored the idea much, though it ran across my brain once. It could be dynamite under a Blood Moon. Did you have a wishboard of any sort in mind?
Also it's way cool to see that Waffle G (My utmost respectful nickname for Wafo-Tapa) is stomping face with Sloggers and company at Worlds.
My thought on wishboard:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
1 Pyroclasm (or Cave-In?)
1 Ruination (or Boom/Bust?)
1 Demonfire or Lightning surge
1 Shattering Spree
1 Empty the Warrens
I have not tested the I dea, I was just tinkering with the thought, so nothing too exiting so far.
EDIT: if Ironfoot is underwhelming, how about The War beast? Or is the drawback too much?
EDIT2: How about Solemn Simulacrum if you are desperate enough to play Mindless Automaton?
EDIT3: Another random Idea - Giant Solifuge?
I will tinker around with this idea. It might have some sort of potential.Quote:
Originally Posted by C.P.
I like it too. Seems like it could be useful in a variety of situations, and I haven't loved the sideboard as it is (as the SB is pretty much in the MB). However, I'd run 4 Pyroclasms in the SB so that you could still side them in against Gobs. I think the wishboard should look like:
1 Boil
4 Pyroclasm
1 Demonfire
1 Shattering Spree
1 EtW
1 Decree of Annihilation (uncounterable FTW)
1 Overmaster
Boil is an instant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mental
Boiling Seas would do, seeing it's the same, only sorcery.Quote:
Originally Posted by C.P.
How about Rolling Earthquake? Have saved my ass before in tight situations.
Seems strong, probably worth it. Plus, set at less than 5 it basically reams them and does nothing to your guys. However, an answer to goyf would be nice...can't think of anything right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordenkain