It does stops bridge from below, so Flame Kin Zealot probably won't be very good if they reanimate it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
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It does stops bridge from below, so Flame Kin Zealot probably won't be very good if they reanimate it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
Did not think that one through.. haha:laugh:
Yeah, I was feeling nostalgiac for charge, and after playing with it again I still feel like it's a viable card, though not as more than a three of, and I still kinda don't want it as more than a two of. It's kind of like the singleton jitte; you don't ever need it, but having it is a nice perk despite not wanting to topdeck it when it's dead.
I'm not going to pretend like samurai is the ultimate anti dredge card, because clearly it is not. The night before the tournament I had slept over at my girlfriend's place so I didn't have all my cards with me. I saw two people playing dredge and had a set of samurais at hand so I just threw them on the sb. While they don't completely neuter dredge the way other more powerful hate cards do, they also have some advantages over those cards. One, they help give you a clock, which is very important since it gives them less time to draw an answer. They can still dredge and get narcomoebas to dread return with, but samurai still places numerous restrictions on how they have to play; they can't get zombies, and their ichorids only come back once, which is nice. I don't have a problem with double W since I run the deck as a primary rw deck with a g splash compared to how some do rg with a w splash. I usually want two sources of w available anyway since i want to be able to path and helix in the same turn, whereas one G source is fine since I'm usually only casting one G requiring creature per turn.
The other thing is that even when none of the cards are the perfect hate cards, having 11 cards to board in in a matchup can be pretty savage tech.
Also, Samurai was good against stax too since he couldn't recur wastelands or factories and his armageddons went from being one sided to actually being fair. That was great. Finally, being an effective 3/3 creature was good for any matchups where I needed another beater or where I needed to side out dead PTEs (Not that I played that matchup today, but you never know when tendrils will show up).
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION
I just noticed your list is only 59 cards. Whats missing?
oh yeah, didn't notice that. It was a third figure of destiny was the 60th card. Sorry bout that.Quote:
Originally Posted by kkoie
Really? Thats interesting. How frequently have you been able to find the open mana to pump a figure? I've put together a list that I've been messing around w/ and I went with only two figures because I didn't want to get stuck in a scenario where I might have more than 1 figure and not enough mana to pump into each of them.
Currently my list includes 2 maindeck Teegs. Since the ANT MU sucks a lot is it worth devoting some sideboard slots to it, or should I just take a loss and load the SB with cards to affect MU's I have a chance of winning?
What MU's are worth sidebording against in an unknown meta?
Is Fallout worth slots for random aggro, or should I just stick with Jitte to win?
Is Shusher good enough against CB, or do you need K-Grips?
To me, Fogure is a tool you use to avoid overextending. Since he alone makes for a pretty good threat, you can just keep using your mana on him instead of playing out extra dudes and getting blown out by deed/wrath/explosives. Plus he's a great topdeck in the mid/late game since he turns into an 8/8 flyer.
i srsly doubt that he makes it an 8/8 very often... what is your mana base that you come close to haveing 6 R/W lands at a time?
My mana base is above. You're right that he doesn't make it there too often, but I did get there one game in my last tournament to swing for the win over an army of opposing creatures that would have been lethal the following turn. The fact that he's capable of becoming such a huge threat is what makes him important, even if he isn't capable of it every game. But when the game stalls out, he can be the perfect topdeck.
Also, another cool trick with him; If you have him at a 2/2 and three lands in play, you can swing him into your opponent's RWM or 3/4 goyf without any fear, since it's very unlikely they'll block him. It's like a free shock every turn.
You still have to take care of that RWM though. ;p
If you're aiming it at your opponent, then yes it is very inefficient. On the other hand, if you aim it at their creatures to remove blockers, then attack through with your large beaters... well the numbers can look quite a bit better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
The part about the combo I don't care for is relying on grove of the burnwillows. Wasteland shuts down your combo in a hurry and makes punishing fire quite inefficient (unless your opponent is casting lighting helix I suppose).
We call this grim lavamancer.Quote:
Originally Posted by nateo
I'm not really disagreeing with you, just saying that you can't really evaluate the combo purely on the strength of it being aimed at the opponent's head.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
So in other words, the only decks you would want the combo for would be decks running small creatures like Goblins, Merfolk, and maybe the mirror. Goblins and Merfolk are already really good matchups, and probably don't need the combo to make them any better. Plus, both decks run Wasteland anyways, which would mitigate the effectiveness of the combo. For the mirror, the combo might be good. I'm not sure it's the best option though; it doesn't seem worth the number of slots that it would take up.Quote:
Originally Posted by nateo
Yeah it's horrible in legacy, people need to realize this is a DIFFERENT format than extended.
Extended Zoo has to deal with like, fucking Ghost Quarter. OH NO!!!
They don't know the fury Wasteland holds.
In other news. I've given Zoo a break for a little bit. I'll be back when i get tired of countering my opponent's deck with one Enchantment.
I wish Ranger of Eos was viable in Zoo :frown:
Finally! Something we agree on. I love that card. I don't know if anyones played "star" multiplayer, but its 5 person, and you win when you kill the two people across from you. I've been playing Ranger of Eos with success there, because running out of gas is the only thing that stops Zoo from winning. Two Wild Nacatls goes a long way in that respect. Not that Zoo is really a multiplayer deck, but Ranger fits there for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
He is just insane card advantage. Possible SB card, if Zoo consistently hit 4 mana..Quote:
Originally Posted by troopatroop
Just another reason Extended shouldn't be compared to Legacy.
Exactly man, its as different as legacy and standard. also multiplayer is a completely different format, so I think in a 4+ person environment, ranger would be pretty solid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
Although I have never tested it, ranger (on paper) seems like it wouldn't be very competitive, although it would most likely get through countertop, the dudes he tutors for probably would not, and you're left with a 3/2 that dies to opposing goyf/factory/anything.
I am not sure if it has been said already, but Martin Juza 6-0'ed the draft portion of Pro Tour: Austin, which means he was able to draw the last three rounds into Top Eight. He effectively dodged the best Extended decks on Day Two because he did so well on Day One and during the first draft of Day Two. The format for the Pro Tour was five rounds Extended followed by three rounds Draft for Day One. Day Two started with three rounds Draft, followed by five rounds Extended.Quote:
Originally Posted by mackaber
Hello
On the 31:st of october there will be a big Legacy tournament (actually champs) here in Finland and here is the deck I'm thinking of playing;
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Windswept Heath
3x Arid Mesa
2x Horizon Canopy
3x Taiga
2x Plateau
1x Savannah
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Mountain
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Kird Ape
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Figure of Destiny
3x Grim Lavamancer
2x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Lighting Bolt
4x Path to Exile
3x Lightning Helix
3x Chain Lightning
2x Sylvan Library
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard
2x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Crypt/Trap/Relic
3x Krosan Grip
2x Price of Pogress
2x Choke
2x Vexing Shusher
I feel that the MD is just about as good as it gets for me since debating on Knigts vs. Thoctar and how many Mancers and so on is (as many before me has stated) pretty much down to personal playing style. The biggest issue (MD)for me is that I would like to have room for some fieblasts but I just don't know what to cut. Helix has been working pretty well for me so they will stay and I don't want to cut Chains either. I also feel that though I only run one Figure, it would be quite stupid to sac the lands I need to make him bigger.
However the bigger question is about the sideboard. Just as e=mc^2 earlier I would love to get some thoughts about what to put in the board when I don't really know what I'm up against. I think there will be a lot of tribal decks and different kinds of threshold but I'm not sure. Since I don't play any combo hate MD, it also seems stupid to use half my SB for a MU that is almost lost anyhow. Thank You in advance for every suggestion!
Greetings from a rainy Finland!
You can always play 1 fireblast in the main. That way you are much more sure to have mountains to cast it, and it can potentially "come out of no-where" to steal a game.
what about punishing fire+ grove of burnwillows?
OMG, seriously, Different format than extended... Bad in this deck, way better options to work with, 2 damage can kill BOB and factories, and thats about it, grove is a wasteland target then you're left with a shitty burn spell, I mean we don't play magma jet and that has actual utility, you need 5 mana (3 red) do do 4 damage and kill anything relevant, and targeting the head is even worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by bulaxas
Canopy is much better than grove, drawing cards is great when you don't need the land, grove is horrible by itself, punishing fire is horrible by itself, its just a bad idea in general. and its very vulnerable as a combo in legacy, mainly wasteland, all this has been discussed, there is a thread about it, its bad. there are better and more efficient options
Hello there,
locally we play legacy every friday so I get to play a lot of zoo. However recently I am the only one left, which is nice. here is my current list.
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Windswept Heath
3x Arid Mesa
3x Horizon Canopy
3x Taiga
2x Plateau
1x Savannah
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Mountain
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Kird Ape
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Tarmogoyf
2x wooly thoctor
3x Grim Lavamancer
2x fireblast
4x Lighting Bolt
4x Path to Exile
3x Lightning Helix
2x Chain Lightning
2x Sylvan Library
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard
2x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
2x red elemental blast
3x Krosan Grip
3x Price of Pogress
2x Choke
2x Vexing Shusher
that is off the top of my head but I am pretty sure thats the list, or fairly close to it. I have thought about recently cutting one land as sometimes I seem to get a few too many, although tonight twice I was stuck at 2 mana, not that it mattered.
Any ways I've been winning every friday for 2 months now, haven't lost 1 match, a few games no matches. My meta for the most part is aggro, with a little combo and a little control. As you might have guessed nearly every player knows my list and what I am playing the second I walk in the door, something that is a little annoying to me. For example tonight I lost to Moat and an active Morphling in game 1, happily after SB this was not a problem. Never seen a pridemage and Morphling upped the clock. This was my only loss for the night.
Round 2: Ascention / Fog deck. This was a white / blue controlly with white fog like deck. The new enchantment was bothersome in game 1 but bolts and such held it's activation off for 4 extra turns or so, eventually I won and after game 1 my SB mops him up, no contest.
Round 3: Combo, some sort of mill control deck. plays counter top which was annoying, and he gets scarcrow or something to make everything one color and mills you to death. I basicly race his janky combo he doesn't see it or I disrupt it with pride mages, and SB wise I have lots for control so it wasn't an issue.
Top 4:
Round 1: I beat some sort of B/W aggro deck, he was land screwed in game 2 and game one I just had the nuts and beat his face in.
Round 2: More Janky combo scarcrow guy, was an easy 2 wins even with counter top out both times.
Sorry for being so long winded but I want you to get a feel for what I deal with so as to advice me best :)
Other decks I often face:
canadian thresh
43 land
dredge
goblins
counter top control -- some sort of anti zoo version he says, lost to him once
but it's always very very close.
Death and taxes or some such list, seen him playing didn't face him yet.
You get the idea.
My question is this, I don't normally change my SB which is something I want to do when those players with 43 land and dredge show up. goblins also concerns me as haven't faced them in a long time and they can often race you?
thoughts and ideas on how I can change it up a little without loosing performance but while throwing a surprise my opponents way?
Also I lost a month ago in semi's to a eva green / rack deck. He milled away my hand and I never found an answer for rack believe it or not, might have been bad luck, haven't seen the kid since then.
sorry for the long post, looking for solid advice. :)
--edit:
I do play 2 fireblast main, not sure how I missed that, serves me right for cutting and pasting from somewhere else. lol
thanks for reminding me, also I was off 1 on the land I play 21.
No fireblast??, you could try out 2-3 main, I'd cut the helix altogether and up the chain lightning to a 3-of as well. try out knight of the reliquary, also consider cutting a fetchland, either run 3/3/3 or drop a mesa/heath, 9 seems to be the correct number.
I'm not saying your build is wrong, at all... Just offering some advice to try out, you might like it... I like the senerio 'swing with nacatl for 3, lightning bolt/chain lightning, fireblast!!' ten damage in a single turn, especially since your locals wouldn't be expecting it, also KotR is a fucking HOUSE!! (there is debate as to which is better, it comes down to preference) just try it out.
regarding SB, good idea to change/tweak for every event. if you expect Ichorid/43, deff want relic in the board, you could probly safely cut REB, the deck has alot of answers for countertop as it is (pridemage/grip/shusher/choke) seems over extending to that type of match up. Lavamancer loves to eat little gobbies for breakfast, consider 4 main and cut a fetch for it. Knight also can 'feed' the lavamancer (sacking lands, make sure you have 2 to remove.. in stand-off situations, moat, he's nice!) you could also try another jitte in the board, or even pyrokenisis for the gobo's and fish if you think it may be a problem, in that case you could drop a grip for another jitte (6 answers between md/sb is pretty solid for art/ench removal).
Just try to read the meta and plan accordingly, if you feel a particular match up gives you trouble, then obviously adjust for it accordingly, don't be afraid to tweak/try new things in the main deck to affect certain matchups. evegreen gets blown out by zoo, so it was probably a luck issue.
Anyway, try it out, a well placed/unexpected fireblast can be GG, also 6cc gets around countertop, knight could be a good change of pace (all kinds of synergies, ie. grows to fireblast, can sac lands to feed Lavamancer, can get huge in a hurry) hope this provides at least a little insight.
I'll give knight a try, this weekend and see. Thoctar has always been a good performer for me, but I am always willing to try out new things.
Here it is simple. If you want more aggro for your deck, run Thoctar. If not, run Knight. Knight is slower i don't care what anyone says.Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaras
This is not some invite to debate that with me either. It's been proven time after time.
I couldn't see myself running Fireblast and Knight in the same deck. I hate Fireblast as it is, and it makes the deck fast, but it's too damned awkward running both. The extra power or two you get when you cast Thoctar third turn is worth it.
But hey this is all the rambling of Loxodon Baileyarch! Stifling shitty innovations to Zoo since Xmas 08.
Didn't you say you were going to leave this thread to go discuss CB top?Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
How exactly is running Fireblast is the same deck as Knight more awkward than running it in the same deck as Thoctar? Care to actully explain your outlandish claims for once?
yeah? at least KotR gets a +2 boost of it, but its all gravy, this deck rocks the house anyway, thoctar/knight whatever your flavor (as long as you've given the good old college try to both) it's all good.
Easy there tiger, don't get all your panties in a wad. You take everything i say way too personally. I didn't even mention you in the post. I also said that I'm done PLAYING Zoo for a while. I still like to post in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION
I think it's more awkward because Fireblast is a speedy card in my opinion, and Knight is a slow card. I think both are fine cards, but i would rather go turn 3 Thoctar, turn 4 swing Fireblast to get the extra points from Thoctar.
Having to activate Knight in some situations to get him going slows the deck down. That's all I'm saying. Slow and fast cards make for awkward situations where you have to choose between win now and win later. Zoo likes to win now.
@Gibsonmac: Thanks for being chill about everything. I ran a 1/1 split of Thoctar and Knight for a few weeks before i went on vacation from Zoo. They both rock.
Not to shoot a hole in that argument, but if on turn 4 you swing with a 3drop and cast fireblast, kotr will only be smaller than thoctar I you did not crack a single fetchland; I don't know about you, but I usually crack two fetchlands by turn 4. Thus, knight will more often than not be larger than thoctar for that swing.
Really, it's not about taking you too personally, it's about you coming into the thread in an arrogant tone, calling other people's ideas shitty without backing it up, and then pulling back and saying LOL IM JOKING LOL YOURE OVERREACTING when somebody calls you out on it.
I never said his idea was shitty. I was making a pun towards myself. Get it?Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION
And you would have to Fireblast first, THEN swing, and i don't know anybody that plays spells in their first mainphase. It actually seems terrible.
And you would have to get three fetches by turn four to even match Thoctar in any other scenario, aside from mana denial. I mean people draw those kind of hands sometimes but the odds don't seem likely.
Or just Fireblast after no blocks are declared.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
I draw them plenty often, but then I do run 10 fetches and a canopy. Even still, the only time Thoctar is genuinely better is on turn three and he's only a two of. I rarely land knight on turn three, so I don't feel like that's as important.Quote:
And you would have to get three fetches by turn four to even match Thoctar in any other scenario, aside from mana denial. I mean people draw those kind of hands sometimes but the odds don't seem likely.
It sounds like you're going to collapse your metagame and soon you're not going to have anyone to annihilate. You've won the tournament 8 times in a row, and people obviously aren't doing anything to adjust.Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaras
Moat and Morphling? How the hell does that beat Zoo? That's a terrible idea. Ascension... you mean Bloodchief Ascension, the most unplayable card in Zendikar?
It's sad that you're so win-greedy you want to metagame against these people. "How do I turn beating Bloodchief Ascension mill from a 99% win rate matchup to a 99.9% win rate matchup!!?! HELP!! I can't lose!"
It seems like you enjoy playing there, so I'll give you some actual advice: You're going to collapse your metagame. How about showing a little self-restraint or testing your play skill and rotating decks or something? I can't imagine you get any pleasure in playing such one-sided games, but even if you do through some overinflated alpha-male complex or perhaps pedo-sadism (yeah, I just made that up), I'll point out that little kids aren't going to show up to get beat every week.
Act like a grown up and help them out. It's nice people are showing interest in Legacy, you've got to keep it going.
Still seems terrible. Bc then they don't take the Knight damage and remove him with some removal spell. Waiting until second main or their turn is still the tech play.Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION
Nice one trying to deflect my logical response to my "outlandish claims".
*thumbs up*:laugh:
Sorry for assuming people would play with some degree of intelligence and not walk into removal?Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
If that's all you've got, then I believe this little tid-bit is over.Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION
1UP Baileyarch:laugh:
What exactly would you like me to say? Fireblast gets you into lose-lose situations no matter what. I disagree about kotr + fireblast being more awkward than thoctar + fireblast because let's face it, if they have an stp, they're gonna take out the 3drop before it connects whether it's a thoctar OR a knight. That's why I don't like it. But arguing that thoctar is faster when knight is clearly the same speed or a point faster is silly. Then trying to say you care about something besides speed draws away from that point, so it's kind of pointless to point out that thoctar is faster in the first place.
There is no making points with you, like at all. You ask me to explain myself, and i do, with very good points like i usually do, but you keep going on and on and on.Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION
How is it pointless!? Thoctar IS faster. With or without Fireblast. I don't see how you don't see that. Having 5 power to attack with on turn 4 instead of the alternative 3 or 4 with Knight makes a difference. Having to activate him wastes an attack. Sure you can crack a bunch of fetches make him bigger, but you have to fetch EVERY TURN up to turn 4 to get him bigger. That doesn't seem very likely.
I know Knight is your pet card or whatever, but what I'm saying makes perfect sense, and blindly defending him because he's your pet card gets nothing done. Sure he is bigger late game, we all know this. Sure he can't be blasted, whoopty. If you want to go with speed, go with Thoctar. If you wanna build more of a midrange Zoo deck with an upped land count, and slower spells, then run Knight. It's that simple.