[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

What Rico said. People need to re-evaluate the statement "Vial decks make Standstill a dead card". The truth is Vial.dec's goal isn't about killing Standstill, it's about killing the control player's entire deck. At that point, all your Daze, Spell Snare, Counterbalance, Counterspells are blank when Vial is in play, not just Standstills. In fact, the cards you should really be boarding out on the play against Vial.dec is Snare, Counterspell because these don't answer a turn 1 Vial even on the play (you board out Daze on the draw obviously). If you don't solve the Vial problem, not only is Standstill a dead card, but your entire deck becomes full of dead cards. I would for most parts keep Standstills and cut the counterspells that I listed above, for cards that actually deal with Vials/creatures (that's what the sideboard is for). Once you've solved Vial, your Standstills become the best draw engine in the format once again.

However, there is only one deck in Legacy that makes this plan difficult: Merfolks. I would say that even against Lackey + Vial in goblins, you can resolve Standstills against Lackey + Vial much easier than Merfolks. The deal with Merfolks is: They have a much smoother curve, they play 4 Wastelands + 4 Mutavaults (which goblins don't), which matches your suite of Factories + Wasteland (sorry to the lists that don't play Factories, I think you're probably missing the point of Factories in the deck, which isn't really to increase the power level of Standstill). Merfolks can maintain pressure and a creature on the board almost all the time, which makes it difficult to resolve Standstill. This is why I cut down to 2 Standstills on the DRAW against Merfolks, but still keep 3 Standstills on the play against Merfolks. Your entire strategy then is to neutralize Vial, because when Vial isn't in the picture, you can match their spells 1-1. They'l have a slight tempo advantage with their suite of free disruption (Wasteland, Daze/FoW), but you will be in a much better fighting position.

@black discard.decs, featuring the Rock etc: Standstill is amazing against these decks. Without Standstill, you can probably toss out a few games out of the window because you deserved those losses for not having cards to fight your opponents.

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Originally Posted by Rico Suave

Standstill is a very strong card. Is it poor against Merfolk? Sure I guess. Does it dominate black-based aggro-control decks? Yes.

Does it surprise me that one of those players at Boston lost to black-based aggro-control, considering his deck did not include Standstill? Not really.

Be careful when you cut Standstill. You might be trying to improve your Merfolk match at the expense of every other match...

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Indeed. The metagame I play in tends to over represent Fish in relation to Junk style decks.

I must confess I have never liked Standstill outside of Merfolk. I"m not alone in this sentiment, and there must be some merit to it when mutiple players come to a similair conclusion and proceed to top 16. BtW, did any Team Reflection players attend Boston with Dreadstill and come close to being in contention?

What do you guys think? Should I play swords in the main or in the board, should I play enlightened tutor or trinket Mage, is jace really the nuts, and what's the best counterspell suite, aside from 4 FOW?

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Originally Posted by J.V.

[list]
[*]You've been piggy backing on this one for a while, but I'm going to go ahead and call you out on this one... Rodney, Rob Rogers (Hammafistroob) and I were playing Dreadstill for about a year before you ever picked it up. I would say the only person who really helped the testing outside of Hammafist was Rich Shay (and his teammates on ReflectionoitcelfeR who in turn helped him test) and he only picked it up after being smashed with it by Rodney for a few tournaments.


]

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actually i wanted to address this one,I DID in fact work on this deck with rodney,while not in person as i do NOT live in the north east *North carolina if your keeping score at home* i DID work on the deck on Magic-league alot,i just did not start posting on here for a good while,i played the deck alot and offered alot of mini changes to the Ur version.
i remember when the deck was Ub and Uw and Ug and i even remember the one week it was mono blue.

Quick tourney report from SGC open Boston:
Went 3-3 disappointed, but its legacy and even though I tested a ton before the event I did make wrong card selection choices and needed to get in more games.

Match 1: Junk
g1 : He is on the play and I keep a land destruction hand containing 2 stifles and 2 wastelands, with a brainstorm/top to find nought. I stifle his turn 2 fetch, waste his turn 1 land play on my turn 2 and daze his Gerrard's Verdict. The brainstorm/tops find me nought quickly with the necessary FoW backup for his vindicate.

g2: I board in 2 perish for 2 vindicate. I keep an early counterbalance lock hand which is weak to thoughtsieze, but he doesn't have it. I lay down the lock, with his gofy on board. I swords the gofy and basically lock up the game till he lansd a Thrun. Thankfully he lands it at 5 mana, no idea why so I promptly kill it, and beat him with trinket mage+nought.

1-0
Match 2: Burn
g1: I keep a wasteland/wasteland/bob/stifle hand. Basically entirely dead vs burn. He has a ton of early burn spells and I dont last long. Fine keep but terrible versus his deck.
g2: I keep a turn 2 nought/stifle hand with FoW backup if he has brought in any artifact hate. It gets there on turn 4 and this is never really a game.
g3: I keep an early counterbalance lock hand and stablize at 9 with a 2/3 on top of my library. I land a Jace and continually faceseal him, eventually ultimating through a fireblast on the Jace.

2-0
Match 3: AJ Sacher playing similiar deck with Red
g1: I assume he's playing NO Bant that he's played at the last few opens (big mistake) and keep a hand thats good vs that deck waste/waste/stifle/confidant/swords/2 other land. He's on the play and goes turn 1 trop/lavamancer. I waste. he drops another lavamancer, which turns off my Bob even through swords and I waste again. I topdeck another waste and waste again. I stifle a fetch but am never really in it as he keeps topdecking lands and hits a key brainstorm to find more of them.
g2: I keep a weak hand of top/bob/swords/4 land. Which is fine if he doesnt have a force. He doesnt and we are in for a game. He leads turn 1 lavamancer, turn 2 lavamancer again. But I find a needle with my top and am able to land Bob who resolves. I can't find any action or countermagic and in a couple of turns he resolves Jace through a counterwar. I am able to kill it with a factory, and resolve my own Jace which he REBs, then resolves his 2nd Jace and bounces Bob. He lands EE at 1 which kills my needle/bouncing his own lavamancer to protect and thus negating my ability to reland Bob. I made a few mistakes this game (maybe should've mulled to 6), I spun my top at a bad time and it got bottomdeck by Jace and I think I boarded wrong as well (boarding in spell pierce).

2-1
Match 4: Combo Elves
g1:I keep a reasonable hand of brainstorm/counterbalance/bob/4 land w/fetches. He is on the play I land a turn 2 counterbalance/flip a wasteland off it on his turn and he goes off w/2x glimpse.
g2: I board in peacekeeper plan and perishes. I keep a hand with a turn 2 top+balance+brainstorm but without the 2nd blue mana to cast the balance. I get it turn 3 but he has a nettle sentinel/archdruid/visionary on board at this point. I am burning through my deck to find a peacekeeper/perish to lock things up while he does 6 damage a turn. He GSZ for a 2nd arcdruid I swords/he GSZ again for a Regal Force (after opening with GSZ for nettle sentinel). I stall with my factory+trinket mage for as long as possible but just can't find the peacekeeper/perish to lock it up.

2-2
Match 5: Merfolk
g1: I win the roll!!! Keep an early nought hand with force+daze backup. The kind of things dreams are made of against Fish. I resolve nought on turn 3 through a counterwar and he has no answer.
g2: luckiest game of the day for me I open with force/brainstorm/2 land/counterbalance/trinket mage/top. I lead top he spell pierces I consider forcing but it walks into daze and force on the draw and decide to save it for a better spot+I have trinket mage for another top. I draw brainstorm and go for counterbalance with force backup. He lets it resolve!?! I'm surprised to say the least. He goes for a turn 2 lord of atlantis which I counter with a blind flip. I then use 4!! brainstorms that I draw into over the next few turns to counter 8!! total merfolk and finish him with misha's factory+trinket mage. I have peacekeeper in hand but don't even need to play it.

3-2
Match 6: U/W Fish
g1: I keep a solid Dark confidant based hand with no counters but stifle and brainstorm/top to find nought. He leads turn 2 stoneforge which I cant counter getting SoFaF. I feel like I'm playing standard until he starts dropping Merfolk out his ass. U/W Fish I know I'm in trouble since my peacekeeper plan postboard doesn't really work well against swords to plowshares. I drop my Bob but it gets forced. I attempt to land a dreadnought but it gets forced again and a combination of mystic+sword+a couple fish get there.
g2: I leave out the peacekeeper board (possibly a mistake) afraid that relying on it and getted swords to plowshares will be bad news. I look for an early nought/stifle hand and get one. It has no FoW backup but brainstorm to hopefully find some, and a counterbalance for protection. I run out the balance turn 2 to draw out countermagic and he dazes. He leads turn 2 mystic again getting SoFaI. My brainstorm finds no countermagic so I have to run the nought out there naked or lose I play nought he FoWs the nought...and says "just in case you have trickbind" felt pretty terrible losing to him after he said that.

3-3
Drop.

Really enjoyed the deck testing and playing. List is below.

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland
4 Misha's Factory
2 Island
(added the factories on Rico's advice and they were big all day and in testing, I would not cut them for the world they often let you stall 1/2 more turns vs tribal which is key)

4 Dark Confidant (really like him at 4 because he is incredible once resolved and often lets you resolve some more important spells or draws out a StP)
3 Counterbalance
3 Top
4 Stifle
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage (maybe should be 3 love the 2 for 1 ability of this card)
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares (wouldn't cut these for the world right now so good vs expected field of Junk/merfolk/goblins/etc)
1 Daze
2 Jace TMS
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
2 Vindicate (definitely a building mistake here I liked them a lot because they compliment the land destruction package but would prefer other cards)
Board:
1 Plains
3 Peacekeeper
3 Engineered Plague (probably should've been 2 plague, 3 perish)
2 Perish
1 Tormond's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterbalance (really liked being able to go up to 4 postboard)

IMO vindicate is a bit heavy on the mana for this deck. Btw I quite like how modern dstill lists just run 1 nought with 3 trinkets. The shift from standstills to bob has turned out to be a needed shift as well. Sacher's Ur list with grims intrigues me though. Especially since the singleton collar slots right in and kicks ass. IMO could we work on a URb build incorporating both grims and bobs? Basically bolts replace stps and Grims replace some of the weaker slots.

This seems key in beating Merfolk. Grim is such a great card against all the vial aggro that countertop is weak against. Here's the list I've been testing:

4 Brainstorm
4 Fow
3 Counterbalance
3 Top
3 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Bolt
2 GFTT

3 Trinket
3 Grim
4 Bob
1 EE
1 Collar
1 Dnought

4 Wasteland
9 Blue fetch
3 Volc
3 Usea
1 Island

The lists that made top 16 at the Boston SCG aren't really Dreadstill because they have 1 Dreadnought in the entire 75. It's difficult to compare any of them to Dreadstill because the cards form a symbiotic relationship with each other. For example, Standstill makes the Stifle/Nought plan better and the Stifle/Nought plan makes Standstill better. And since none of those players were really on the Stifle/Nought plan...well it's only natural that Standstill would be worse in those decks too.

But you see people all over the place picking up their Grim Lavamancers and stomping all over people who rely too heavily on their Bobs. I dunno, maybe relying on Bob without having any Standstill is a bad idea? =\

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Originally Posted by SMR0079

BtW, did any Team Reflection players attend Boston with Dreadstill and come close to being in contention?

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Only 2 of us are on the Dreadstill boat, at least in the US (and as far as I know), and neither of us were there.

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IMO could we work on a URb build incorporating both grins and bobs? Basically bolts replace stps and Grims replace some of the weaker slots.

This seems key in beating Merfolk.

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If you want to beat Merfolk, you are going to get a lot more mileage out of running 4 Dreadnought than you will ever get out of 4 Lavamancer.

It's true that those decks are no longer dreadstill. They're more of Stifle-Countertop Tempo Control. It's the right choice because the SCG just before this one was full of combo. Bob + Countertop + Stifle + wastelands seem perfect for tackling Combo and the countertop mirror. I'm guessing traditional Dreadstill in a different meta but we have to keep up right? Btw, how do the 3 Nought, 4 Stifle + 1 Trickbind versions do against Merfolk? I'm guessing that since they will find it hard to Daze/Pierce such a cheap combo, it should stick?

Ivanpei, you're basically posting the list me and a teammate used from November to January, achieveing some very good results (my teammate went 7-0 in Swiss in a 106 people tournament is good, I suppose) and other good results (I got 1 final on 40 people and a 9° and 10° for rating in a 90+ peole tournament and a 76 people tournament).

The first version of the list was:

4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badland
2 Island

3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Dark Confidant
2 Trinket Mage

4 Force of Will
3 Spell snare
3 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives

Which then evolved into senseless ways after the Survival ban and led us to abandon the archetype. Quite similar to your ideas, isn't it?:smile:

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

It's true that those decks are no longer dreadstill. They're more of Stifle-Countertop Tempo Control. It's the right choice because the SCG just before this one was full of combo. Bob + Countertop + Stifle + wastelands seem perfect for tackling Combo and the countertop mirror. I'm guessing traditional Dreadstill in a different meta but we have to keep up right? Btw, how do the 3 Nought, 4 Stifle + 1 Trickbind versions do against Merfolk? I'm guessing that since they will find it hard to Daze/Pierce such a cheap combo, it should stick?

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Basically in a Combo and Control/ Cuntertop meta I'd play Countertop+ Stifle Wasteland+ Bob ( card advantage is really important in these MU) and probably Red splash for Pyroblasts, while in a aggro meta I'd play Stifle Wasteland + Standstill and Mishra's Factory+ Bob; Black splash for Perish and White for Stp maindeck+ Peacekeeper in SB. Amiright?

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

It's true that those decks are no longer dreadstill. They're more of Stifle-Countertop Tempo Control. It's the right choice because the SCG just before this one was full of combo. Bob + Countertop + Stifle + wastelands seem perfect for tackling Combo and the countertop mirror. I'm guessing traditional Dreadstill in a different meta but we have to keep up right? Btw, how do the 3 Nought, 4 Stifle + 1 Trickbind versions do against Merfolk? I'm guessing that since they will find it hard to Daze/Pierce such a cheap combo, it should stick?

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Yes, those decks were basically the realization that Trinket Mage is pretty solid, and if a deck is running both Trinket Mages and a full set of Stifle then running a single Dreadnought provides a lot of value gained for a minimal amount of deck investment. You know what? After boarding, oftentimes I'd play only 1 or 2 Dreadnoughts myself too.

Anyway, the thing with Merfolk is that killing them is very effective. Sure sometimes they'll be able to stop your attempts at a Dreadnought. Other times the Dreadnought will arrive on turn 2 and they can't win the game anymore. Other times you can wait till turn 3 to play around Daze, then kill them. Ultimately, the presence of Dreadnought on the battlefield will make their cards not matter. So often blue decks will try to fight over cards like Vial or Lords or the Merfolk player's cards, whereas assembling Dreadnought/Stifle shifts the entire dynamics of the match to them stopping your cards and that is a fight Merfolk is not prepared to win.

But if you're still fighting over their cards with things like Lavamancer in your deck, you'd better be prepared to lose. Because you're going to lose to cards like Kira, Coralhelm Commander, various hands where they just have 2 Lords naturally, etc.

For those interested in an updated U/r list with MM, here's pretty close to the 75 I'll be running

// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [R] Underground Sea
5 [M10] Island (4)

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [NP] Mental Misstep

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [NE] Submerge
SB: 2 [6E] Perish

I've decided that I'll be running Submerge and see how it goes. It seems better when you run 4 Trinket mages MD too so you can just float 3 costers on top of your deck with Counterbalance.

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Originally Posted by Morgothian

Ivanpei, you're basically posting the list me and a teammate used from November to January, achieveing some very good results (my teammate went 7-0 in Swiss in a 106 people tournament is good, I suppose) and other good results (I got 1 final on 40 people and a 9° and 10° for rating in a 90+ peole tournament and a 76 people tournament).

The first version of the list was:

4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badland
2 Island

3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Dark Confidant
2 Trinket Mage

4 Force of Will
3 Spell snare
3 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives

Which then evolved into senseless ways after the Survival ban and led us to abandon the archetype. Quite similar to your ideas, isn't it?:smile:

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Nice list, No removal at all other than Grim? Do you prefer more Noughts and more Counterspells instead of removal? Hmm I have to test this. I'm gonna play your list but with -3 Snare (Snare is pretty bad right now IMO), + 1 Grim, + 1 Trinket, + 1 Collar for a Grim Centric List. I'm a fan of Grim + Collar. It's won me countless games in Next Level Threshold. What made me switch to this deck is that NLT felt too fair and Stifles are pretty bad draws after the first few turns. I like how this deck can have 3 Combos going (Grim + Collar, Countertop, and Stifle Nought) which are all turned on by the mighty Trinket Mage!

@ Rico, you are right, doing broken things is sometimes more effective than trying to overwhelm with answers. I still like Ubr with Bobs and Grims, but I'll try more Noughts, Trickbind instead of removal.

Hi,

after the MM preview (or spoil...), I' ve been thinking decks that can really take profit of this new weapon. The first one I saw and rebuild was TA, which takes real profit of MM for protectiong the mostners against swords. Another deck I think takes good benefit from it is Dradstill (or similars) for same reaason, but here it is also very important to make us survive long enough until the robot makes his job, it also stops Vial, as some may have pointed, of this I'm sure, which threatens our strategy heavily.

This is the list I made, I post it here for discussing (I know is not strictly Dreadstil, since is not playing Standsill, but I think all stiflenought decks are best suited inthis thread).

Maindeck 60

4x Wasteland
3x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
2x Island
1x Swamp
4x Polluted Delta
3x "Blue Fetch"
1x Verdant Catacombs

4x Force of WIll
4x Mental Misstep
3x Spell Snare
4x Stifle
4x Brainstorm

3x Go for the Throat
2x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Engineered Explosives

4x Dark Confidant
3x Trinket Mage
2x Phyrexian Dreadnought

3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Counterbalance

I started with the list as a 2 colored list, but then I saw that the 3CC curve was too empty with only Mages there. After thinking a bit of what the list may lack I realized that there were no good Black, nor blue, cards that can fill this slot efficently (maybe dismember can be nice, but I don't think so). Then Maelstrom Pulse came to my mind, ultra versatile card that helps with Spot removal aswell as swiss-knife gadget to deal with any other permanent, it also covers the 3CC, and gives the possibilty of playing EE for 3, which is very important in some matches (i.e. Bant for instance). The green splash can also give us Krosan Grip for the sideboard.

I also love the MM + SS dueto, this covers most of the important threats we can face, this plus force fo will is enough support for the soft lock (CB-Top) I guess.

Here is the sideboard I' m testing:

Side 15

4x Engineered Plague
3x Extirpate
3x Ghastly demise
2x Krosan Grip
1x Pithign Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Nihil Spellbomb

I'm not quite sure about the side. Don't know if Engi. Plague is the correct approach to beat Tribal, maybe adding 4 Tarmogoyf instead for racing them, supported by the removal seems a better plan.

Greetigns,

Iñaki.-

Hola Iñaki ;)

Interesting list, only the green splash looks a little forced. What if you add white instead? You could play 2 Vindicates and 1 Enlightened Tutor (possibly cutting a Dreadnaught) and a more tutor focussed SB. Playing with Vindicate could also enable the LD plan in case the opponent is mana srewed.

A possible SB could look like this:

1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Engineered Plagues
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Extirpate
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ghostly Prison
3 Sords to Plowshares / Path to Exile

Here's a UB build I'm trying out built with consideration for Mental Misstep which is INSANE against common Dreadnought removal such as StP and PtE.

6 Blue Fetches
3 Underground Sea
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
5 Island

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage
3 Dark Confidant

2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Standstill
4 Mental Misstep
4 Stifle
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
1 Trickbind
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:
1 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Perish
3 Spell Pierce
4 Engineered Plague
2 Virtue's Ruin

I'll let you guys know the results of my testing. Any problems with my list?

@St3B: maybe you are right that Green splash is not optimal, but I' ve been thinking about adding 4x Goyf to the side instead of the Engineered Plagues, so we can reca the Tribal rather than control them. If I don't play the Goyfs white will be for sure my color to splash. Thanks for pondering about the list.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

Well Ivanpei, the list was very Dreadnought Centred, so a T2 Phyrexian Dude won almost every game in which it was protected...in the actual meta, with MM online, I would push for such approach but is also true that often, very often, PD are nails in your hand worse than Christ's ones...

I would rather try an URBan version with a different contro approach, in which we fully exploit our CB plan, defending it with Daze and MM, gaining card advantage and controling the board. Our T2 bomb would be Dark Confidant which can be protected easily by MM and Daze against removals, or Counterbalance...I agree in cutting the Spell Snares as long as we focus everything on Counterbalance lock and cc2 drops, closing the game through PD tutoring. I would update the list as follows:

4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Seat of Synod

3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Dark Confidant
3 Trinket Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Basilisk Collar

What do you think about this? I think that 3 Grim Lavamancers are enough, often they are not that good and we can easily put the 4th copy in SB. A 4th Counterbalance copy can go in SB as well, along with 3 perishes.

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Originally Posted by JaredDS

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Match 6: U/W Fish
g2: I leave out the peacekeeper board (possibly a mistake) afraid that relying on it and getted swords to plowshares will be bad news. I look for an early nought/stifle hand and get one. It has no FoW backup but brainstorm to hopefully find some, and a counterbalance for protection. I run out the balance turn 2 to draw out countermagic and he dazes. He leads turn 2 mystic again getting SoFaI. My brainstorm finds no countermagic so I have to run the nought out there naked or lose I play nought he FoWs the nought...and says "just in case you have trickbind" felt pretty terrible losing to him after he said that.

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If you have three lands in play and your opponent has winning board position against you unless a Dreadnought resolves, Forcing the Dreadnought may be the correct play. 4 Dreadnought / 4 Stifle / 1 Trickbind is pretty common in Dreadstill lists, and if the only way he loses that game is to the Trickbind, playing around it is fine.

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Originally Posted by Rico Suave

Yes, those decks were basically the realization that Trinket Mage is pretty solid, and if a deck is running both Trinket Mages and a full set of Stifle then running a single Dreadnought provides a lot of value gained for a minimal amount of deck investment. You know what? After boarding, oftentimes I'd play only 1 or 2 Dreadnoughts myself too.

Anyway, the thing with Merfolk is that killing them is very effective. Sure sometimes they'll be able to stop your attempts at a Dreadnought. Other times the Dreadnought will arrive on turn 2 and they can't win the game anymore. Other times you can wait till turn 3 to play around Daze, then kill them. Ultimately, the presence of Dreadnought on the battlefield will make their cards not matter. So often blue decks will try to fight over cards like Vial or Lords or the Merfolk player's cards, whereas assembling Dreadnought/Stifle shifts the entire dynamics of the match to them stopping your cards and that is a fight Merfolk is not prepared to win.

But if you're still fighting over their cards with things like Lavamancer in your deck, you'd better be prepared to lose. Because you're going to lose to cards like Kira, Coralhelm Commander, various hands where they just have 2 Lords naturally, etc.

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I am going to agree with Brad. If you get into an attrition war with Merfolk, it won't end well as often as you'd like. They have a draw engine, and the ability to halt most of your one-for-ones. I did test Grim Lavamancer, and he's great if you land him on turn one and keep a red source in play and don't let Merfolk resolve two Lords at once and you get to keep your graveyard full and they don't have Kira. I would much, much rather force Merfolk to respond to my cards, rather than responding to theirs. Game one, your ability to win is strongly tied to your ability to get a Dreadnought onto the battlefield. If you are really determined to win game one, having the full set of Dreadnoughts is the way to go.

If you want to beat them post-board, Peacekeeper is the best option that I've found. And I tried a lot of options here. She is a card that they must handle before they can win. And they're not well-positioned to remove her. Cursecatcher and Spell Pierce are useless against her. And she can come in against Show+Tell, Reanimator, and Elves.

I think if you plan to see Merfolk, you have to go with Peacekeeper. I don't want to go the Peacekeeper route because I don't like Jace in this deck as much as in others, but it's one of the few ways you can get there well. I was very much against the White Splash, as I loved the red splash for REB's, but against Merfolk, you don't get there. Firespout is fine against Gobbos and Elves, but Peacekeeper, as Rich said, handles Emrakul and Merfolk. I also think we should be playing 4 Nought and 4 Dark Confidant.

Rich, do you plan to include MM in your build?

-Matt

Yes, I plan to be playing 3 or 4 Mental Missteps. It is a great response to so many of the things that can plague this deck. In particular, it is the best answer to AEther Vial ever printed. That alone is a huge bonus. It dovetails with the mana denial plan (hitting Cantrips), makes Bob and Nought stronger by stopping a lot of removal, and makes Standstill stronger, especially on the play.

MM will be an auto include. It's the ideal counter to go with Standstill, Nought and Dark Confidant. Besides, we'll need extra protection to fight opposing MM...

I think we can learn something from Sam Wang and Eli Kassis's 1-of Nought lists from SCG Boston. Trinket Mage is the glue that holds the deck together. At the very least, it leaves a body behind that will attack with Confidant and Factories, and this is more relevant than most would believe. If you play the tempo/control role long enough, 2/2s will eventually get there.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm not going to be so eager to rush out turn 2 Noughts now that everyone and their mother is playing MM. Especially against Merfolk, like some are advocating. I think we should err on the side of too many Mages instead of Noughts.

A question going forward is how will we include enough 2cc cards for Counterbalance. Most lists struggle to reach 10 even with Standstill. I've tried to fill this gap with a Daze here, and a Spell Snare there, but it's tricky. I think MM has officially pushed STP out of the maindeck, and possibly out of the deck entirely.

Has it been pushed out of your sideboard? What's your sideboard look like as of now?

-Matt

I'm using an E-Tutor package:

3 Peacekeeper
1 Nature's Ruin
1 Perish
2 Engineered Plague
1 Energy Flux
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist/Crucible of Worlds (depending on meta)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Plains

Hello everyone I'm new to The Source forums and also new to legacy. I have been playing only for about two months but have been heavily studying the meta. Dreadstill is the deck the that caught my attention and which I believe has some immense potential and I would like some of you more experienced players to help me out with my build.

Ubw Dreadstill

Creatures: 5
3. Dark Confidant
2. Trinket Mage

Artifact Creatures: 1
1. Phyrexian Dreadnought

Artifacts: 3
2. Sensei's Divining Top
1. Engineered Explosives

Enchantments: 6
3. Counterbalance
3. Standstill

Planeswalkers: 2
2. Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sorceries: 3
3. Thoughtseize

Instants: 19
4. Force of Will
4. Brainstorm
3. Mental Misstep
1. Daze
4. Stifle
3. Swords to Plowshares

Lands: 21
3. Wasteland
4. Mishra's Factory
2. Tundra
3. Underground Sea
4. Flooded Strand
2. Polluted Delta
1. Marsh Flats
2. Island

Sideboard: 15
1. Nature's Ruin
1. Perish
3. Peacekeeper
3. Extirpate
1. Tormod's Crypt
1. Relic of Progenitus
1. Pithing Needle
1. Plains
3. Leyline of Sanctity

Notes: The Leylines are in to fight all the Junk and black aggro decks that pack a ton of discard to protect your hand and blank some of their cards and I run brainstorm fetches and top to make sure I don't draw them later on. They also give you leverage on trash games such as against some random burn deck. The Extirpates are not just against combo and dredge but to also play thoughtseize followed by extirpate to blowout some games by taking out key cards of your oppenents. The 1 Daze is to force your opponent to play around daze and gives you another catch all counter besides FoW. I run only one dreadnought since I play a slower game wich tries to check for safety with thoughtseize then drop a 2 turn clock after I completely mess up their mana and hand. Missteps are in to answer problematic cards for I can safely drop standstill as well. So what do you guys think?

Ok, so this isnt a traditional build of either StifleNought or Dreadstill. But let me know what you think...

Creatures: 14
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Dark Confidant
3x Grim Lavamancer
2x Trinket Mage
1x Vendilion Clique

Artifact/Enchantment: 6
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Counterbalance

Instant: 18
4x Stifle
4x Force of Will
4x Mental Misstep
2x Spell Snare
4x Brainstorm

Land: 22
3x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island
3x Wasteland
1x Riptide Laboratory
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta

Sideboard: 15
1x Trinket Mage
2x Chalice of the Void
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Pithing Needle
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Basilisk Collar
3x Perish
3x Firespout


So, some card choice explanations:
Dark Confidant: Easily the second best card in this deck... right under top.
Grim Lavamancer: Lavamancer is simpley amazing. It alone auto wins VS merfolk PERIOD. Untill of course they find their 1-2 of kira, but by then you should have 12/12 or a counter for it. Its also randomly amazing VS almost everything else (cept goyf, KotR, and stalker).
Vendilion Clique: I think we can all agree that clique is just good. And if you've got an extra slot, clique is a shoe in.
Mental Mistep: OMG... thank you M:TG gods! I think that this card will single handedly put this deck back on the map. The most relevant targets for us will be of course Aether Vial, Goblin Lackey, Swords to Plowshares, and... Mental Misstep itself. But this card hits 100+ other relevant targets. On the downside opposing MMs will hit both nought and stifle. And the biggest advocate of 4x per deck will probebly be merfolk, but I have tested this list about... 40-50 times VS merfolk, and the match up is about 6-1 our favor (or my favor since you guys will probebly just ignore this whole post since there are no standstills :D ).
Riptide Laboratory: Ok, I know what your thinking.... WTF! right? But the thing is that riptide lab enables lavamancer (mage, bob, and clique although these are a bit more mana hungery) to chump goyf and KotR all day long. Plus, if you get into late game it has great synergy with clique... and mage after SB.

Sideboard:

Basilisk Collar: This comes in VS big stuff, like... Goyf, KotR, Stalker, Emrakul... what ev. Just strap it to your lavamancer and start swinging for the fences.
Perish/Firespout: Green creatures are too big for firespout, and non-green creatues arent green... makes sense to me.

@ Kancer, a few point:

Riptide lab sucks, if you are bouncing and redropping bobs/cliques/grims/mages, you are already in control and will win anyway. It's better to just play another wasteland.

4/4 split of Nought/Stifle effect is not a good ratio. You will be using your stifles for alot of things, like fetches! It's best to play Noughts + 2 as a general rule. I usually play 3 noughts + 4 Stifles + 1 Trickbind. Also, Trinkets find you noughts.

Snare is a little narrow right now, you could be playing better cards in that slot. I was playing a UBr list for a while and those lists are best with just 1 Nought because those decks concentrate on controling the board and winning the attrition war. If you want to be more combo-ish with more noughts, the UBw lists have been pretty successful. With the printing of misstep, the deck just got alot tighter.

4 Force
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Top
4 Misstep
3 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind

4 Bob
3 Nought
1 EE
2 Trinket
4 STP

4 Wastes
4 Delta
4 Strand
3 Sea
3 Tundra
2 Island

No factories, no stills and no Jace. I think that we can afford to be quicker as Missteps helps protect a quick Nought. No Jace also means no Peacekeepers in the board unfortunately so I'll be playing Llawans + Needles to deal with folk.

I think you people are vastly underestimating how much more powerful Standstill becomes with Mental Misstep. I also feel Spellskite is a card that is being sorely overlooked in this deck. Of course, Spellskite is less good without Enlightened Tutor to grab it, but it has won me a significant enough number of games between 2 Spellskite and 4 MM. Spellskite on board means your opponent can not play the way they want, have to hold back removal, and can only get through with the most beastly of beaters.

@Beware

I whole-heartedly agree with the Standstill comment, but I'm sure most would have trouble fitting Spellskite into the 75. The list is getting ridiculously tight. However, I do like him, as Swerve on a stick and a 2cc for Top seems really really good. I may try 20 lands and squeezing 1 in to the MB, or maybe dropping the Canonist's out of the side, but I feel that 21 is bare minimum with 7-8 colorless lands.

This is what I have been tinkering with: (in lieu of my recent fascination with the solo 'Nought)

6 Fetch
4 Factory
3 Waste
3 Sea
3 Tundra
2 Island

4 Bob
3 Trinket
1 Nought

2 Jace

4 Standstill
3 Balance
2 Top
1 EE

4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 MM
4 Force
2 Snare
1 Daze

sb:
2 Perish
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Peacekeeper
2 Tormods Crypt
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Spell Pierce
1 Crucible
1 Pithing Needle

@ Beware

I do in fact agree that standstill got MUCH better with MM. However Dark Confidant is simply worlds better in the long run IMO. And Grim Lavamancer makes our worst match ups 10x better. After playing fish/goblins with him, I dont think I can bring myself to cut the grim-ster. Untill those decks disappear of course. Standstill is just a terrible draw in those MUs (cept for FoW fodder). Plus (and probebly the best reason of all), you can drop factories. I cant count the number of times I've had to aggressively mulligan for blue land... seriously? that sh*t should not be an issue.
And Spellskite is actualy pretty amazing but like iPhael said... it will be difficult to fit it into our 75.

Hi everybody! This is my current UGB list.

3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Trygon Predator

3 Thoughtseize
2 Smother
2 Go for the throat

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

6 Fetch
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Wasteland
7 Islands

I have a couple of comments, I cut counterbalance + top because it is too slow. I also cut Engineered Explosives for the same reason, thus, Trinket Mages are not necessaries. Also no standstill because of my Confidants and aggro matchs.

1.- I don't know if I have to delete the 3 Thoughtseize because are not as reactive as the deck needs to be (i.e. the Thoughtseize don't let you mana opened for a Stifle, Brainstorm or Mental Misstep in the opponent's turn) but Thoughtseize provides a great advantage (seeing what your opponent is playing) and a sorcery to increase my Tarmogoyfs.

Do you think Thoughtseize would be better than (i) Spell Pierce, (ii) Daze or (iii) Ponder for more cantrip?

2.- And my other question is...Is a single Tombstalker too dangerous with the 3 Confidants? I think it is a great finisher in addition to the Goyfs and Dreadnought because of flying, I can cut easily a Vendilion or the Trygon for this 5/5 flying...or even I am thinking of Serendib Efreet. Any thoughts?

3.- Additional or massive removal is really needed? i.e. more Smother, Ghastly Demise or even Pernicious Deed??

Many thanks!

James

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by James

Hi everybody! This is my current UGB list.

-list

I have a couple of comments, I cut counterbalance + top because it is too slow. I also cut Engineered Explosives for the same reason, thus, Trinket Mages are not necessaries. Also no standstill because of my Confidants and aggro matchs.

---

I agree with you regarding Counterbalance. I found myself in situations where I had Countertop lock ready turn 3 but with a single Goyf smashing my face for 5 turns into GG. That's why I cutted it for (additional) Snares and StP's. I honestly can't understand those lists with NO spot removals. Said that, Sensei's Divining Top are highly needed in this deck. They dig for solutions when the gamestate is not in your favor, they let you draw huge amounts of cards for free with Confidants. I'm currently playing 3 and I'd never play less than 2. I would not cut Trinkets and EE.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by James

2.- And my other question is...Is a single Tombstalker too dangerous with the 3 Confidants? I think it is a great finisher in addition to the Goyfs and Dreadnought because of flying, I can cut easily a Vendilion or the Trygon for this 5/5 flying...or even I am thinking of Serendib Efreet. Any thoughts?

3.- Additional or massive removal is really needed? i.e. more Smother, Ghastly Demise or even Pernicious Deed??

---

I would not play Confidants without Tops, Thoughtseizes, 7 Fetchlands and a Tombstalker in the same deck.You could fit a Stalker as a random win con, but please play 2-3 Tops. I'd rather play Vendilion though, as it's easier to cast, comes EOT unexpected and it's a flexible card, amazing against Standstill and against Dredge, or even against opponents Vendilion (Vendilion in resp to Vendilion is very good). Also Pernicious Deed clearly doesn't fit Dreadstill. I hardly think I'd play any kind of mass removal, neither Deed or Damnation. If you want more spot removals instead, I suggest a combination of Go for the Throat (Smother if Affinity is overplayed in your meta) and Ghastly Demise.

Edit: Singleton Jace seems a bit random. Play 2 or don't play them. I found the more straightforward 3-4 Noughts version rarely wants to cast it, while most controllish versions want 2.

How about a set of spellskites instead of stp/counterbalance. That frees up more slots for card draw like stills and jace. Btw spellskite won me a game at prerelease. Its awesome. Note it redirects ABILITIES too, meaning you can redirect a pridemage activation!

Anyway I'm not a jace+peacekeeper fan in this deck. I love that combo in countertop thopthers or superfriends but In dstill, opponents still keep their removal in! Also this deck can't afford to play basic plains so folk still has outs to peacekeeper by nuking the tundra. Sad fact.

If a deck is running E Tutor, you definitely only need 2 Spellskite. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I am not totally on board the Lavamancer train. I also think a lot of people are downplaying how great Standstill is in the Countertop MU. Confidant is awesome, but I don't think cutting Standstill completely is the right call. How has Torpor Orb been working for people? It's mildly slower than StifleNought, but it gives you something to do with Stifle-less Noughts that have been collecting dust in your hand. Of course, Orb could only be worthwhile in lists running 3-4 Dreadnoughts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beware

It's mildly slower than StifleNought, but it gives you something to do with Stifle-less Noughts that have been collecting dust in your hand. Of course, Orb could only be worthwhile in lists running 3-4 Dreadnoughts.

---

I loved to have double Dreadnought in play when i played 4 with 2Trickbind and 4 stifle. And it is definitely strong! You can race even really bad board positions with double-nought!
Still the ETutor Package seems like a really nice treat to play with. Need to test that! =)

@Kiblast

Many thanks for your comments much appreciated. I think 2 top are a good idea to improve my top deck and to avoid a high loss of life due to confidant+fetches+mental misstep.


Any comments on Thoughtseize??

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ivanpei

How about a set of spellskites instead of stp/counterbalance. That frees up more slots for card draw like stills and jace. Btw spellskite won me a game at prerelease. Its awesome. Note it redirects ABILITIES too, meaning you can redirect a pridemage activation!

---

I can understand you want Spellskite instead of Counterbalance, but what it does in substitution of StP? Also note that if your goal is to protect Nought, a single Spellskite eats 1 removal, while Countertop eats ALL the removals opponent is playing, with the ability of randomly countering other threats such as Jace, Humility, Moats, Shackles, Wog , or potentially bigger creatures like Terravore or KotR.Counterbalance is still superior, though I think is too slow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by James

@Kiblast

Many thanks for your comments much appreciated. I think 2 top are a good idea to improve my top deck and to avoid a high loss of life due to confidant+fetches+mental misstep.


Any comments on Thoughtseize??

---

You said it by yourself. You already play Missteps and plenty other life loss sources. I would not play them. Anyway, in a deck packing 3-4 Noughts, Thoughtseizes are useless as:

- If you are going to discard a creature, that creature will probably be littler than your Nought ( you play 3 so it's very likely that you get fast Noughts that laugh in the face of Goyfs and Kotr)

- If you are going to discard a removal, that removal will almost always be Stp/Pte, and so counterable by Misstep (and if you go for the fast Nought route, you should play 4 Missteps).

- Each other threat is very likely going to be handled by the rest of your deck. Normally (always speaking about fast Nought route, which, looking at your list, seems the direction you want to take), you only need to counter 1 threat before they scoop. That's where Top shines finding extra stifle effects for EE's@1 or Pridemages, or Fow for Jaces, etc.

Ideally turn 1 Top, turn 2-3 Stifle Nought menas that you have 3 more card to fight Nought hate (and you need to fight it for only 2 turns...)...and this will probably be enough.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

Also this deck can't afford to play basic plains so folk still has outs to peacekeeper by nuking the tundra. Sad fact.

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Why can't the deck afford to play a basic Plains? It's actually rather easy to stuff it into the SB along with the Peacekeepers, because frequently a basic Plains is good on its own even without Peacekeeper.