[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by sampi

I guess a lot of potential sideboard options will have a similar problem of not drawing it in the opener (Nature's Claim etc). Maybe ingot chewer would be better than grudge as it also triggers bridge.

I think noxious revival should see some spots in the board. Being able to put the card back on top in resp to DRS, surgical. But the last game I played vs Team America they were running extirpate, which was a beating.

What is your current sideboard?

Thanks for the reply!

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No problem!

I'll address the last two things you said first. Extirpate and Surgical Extraction are hideous. There's little we can do to stop them, but there are a couple of things that might keep us from getting totally blasted (see the last part of this post).

Here's the (perhaps rather rickety) sideboard I'm planning to run the next time I take the deck out for a spin:

4x Nature's Claim
2x Street Wraith
2x Lotus Petal
1x Ashen Rider
1x Dread Return
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Flayer of the Hatebound
1x Blazing Archon
1x Memory's Journey

[EDIT: Someone earlier mentioned the danger of having an Eldrazi player cast Metamorph to copy Archon. I think Flayer would be extremely useful in such situations, so my default plan against the menace was to bring in both.]

I'm not a big fan of Ingot Chewers, either, primarily because they only hit artifacts (and not enchantments) and we can't cast them in response to anything's hitting the field. Looks like it shines against Grafdigger's Cage, which is pretty cool, but I feel like the major strength of Nature's Claim is that it hits either artifacts (esp. Grafdigger's) or enchantments (Rest in Peace, Leyline of the Void). N.B.: none of those cards puts a clock on us; we may (MAY) be able to topdeck cards against these threats if the opponent doesn't have a [EDIT: clock] on the board already. Again, that's a luxury not afforded us if the opponent's running Deathrite or something similar.

I've always felt like Ancient Grudge (and Ray of Revelation) had their uses, but both were themselves pretty narrow. It's nice that we don't need to open with (or topdeck) them, but—unless they're in our opening hand—Grudge doesn't respond meaningfully to the artifacts that hate us out (except, I guess, Relic of Progenitus) and Ray doesn't stop Leyline of the Void. I've still got a Ray floating in and out of my sideboard to give me an extra shot at hitting Rest in Peace, but I'm not a big fan.

I considered Noxious Revival for a little while, but I feel like it doesn't do anything we would want it to do better than other cards would do the job. Sure, it brings back cards we've dredged that we can't use if they're in the 'yard, but it also doesn't do anything if it's been dredged out. In most games, unless I'm totally locked or have had rotten luck with dredges, my hand's empty within the first three or four turns, whether or not I've managed to combo out.

It's worth pointing out that Street Wraith (which can bring us back a dredger in case of DRS shenanigans) has this problem, too. With that said, the Wraith has other advantages, like being harder to counter, putting the card back into our hand directly, and acting as fuel for Ichorid. I feel like it's a better call to run it instead of Revival.

The only card on which I feel like we can rely for those situations (and, perhaps more importantly, against Surgical Extraction) is Memory's Journey. I don't think it's a stable enough card to run in multiples, but I may be wrong about that. I'm running a whole lot of reanimation targets in my 'board right now, and I think that if I cut one of those cards, the thing I'll add to the sideboard is a second Memory's Journey specifically because it's so good against Deathrite.

Extirpate still cuts up our whole plan. Not sure we've really got an answer to it because Split Second is one of those things better left unprinted.

Hope I'm not being too harsh! Sincerely, I'm interested to hear further input regarding these cards, my sideboard choices, and my attempts at rational analysis. If anyone's got data they can provide, that'd be fantastic, so thanks in advance.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

No problem!

I'll address the last two things you said first. Extirpate and Surgical Extraction are hideous. There's little we can do to stop them, but there are a couple of things that might keep us from getting totally blasted (see the last part of this post).

Here's the (perhaps rather rickety) sideboard I'm planning to run the next time I take the deck out for a spin:

4x Nature's Claim
2x Street Wraith
2x Lotus Petal
1x Ashen Rider
1x Dread Return
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Flayer of the Hatebound
1x Blazing Archon
1x Memory's Journey

[EDIT: Someone earlier mentioned the danger of having an Eldrazi player cast Metamorph to copy Archon. I think Flayer would be extremely useful in such situations, so my default plan against the menace was to bring in both.]

I'm not a big fan of Ingot Chewers, either, primarily because they only hit artifacts (and not enchantments) and we can't cast them in response to anything's hitting the field. Looks like it shines against Grafdigger's Cage, which is pretty cool, but I feel like the major strength of Nature's Claim is that it hits either artifacts (esp. Grafdigger's) or enchantments (Rest in Peace, Leyline of the Void). N.B.: none of those cards puts a clock on us; we may (MAY) be able to topdeck cards against these threats if the opponent doesn't have a threat on the board already. Again, that's a luxury not afforded us if the opponent's running Deathrite or something similar.

I've always felt like Ancient Grudge (and Ray of Revelation) had their uses, but both were themselves pretty narrow. It's nice that we don't need to open with (or topdeck) them, but—unless they're in our opening hand—Grudge doesn't respond meaningfully to the artifacts that hate us out (except, I guess, Relic of Progenitus) and Ray doesn't stop Leyline of the Void. I've still got a Ray floating in and out of my sideboard to give me an extra shot at hitting Rest in Peace, but I'm not a big fan.

I considered Noxious Revival for a little while, but I feel like it doesn't do anything we would want it to do better than other cards would do the job. Sure, it brings back cards we've dredged that we can't use if they're in the 'yard, but it also doesn't do anything if it's been dredged out. In most games, unless I'm totally locked or have had rotten luck with dredges, my hand's empty within the first three or four turns, whether or not I've managed to combo out.

It's worth pointing out that Street Wraith (which can bring us back a dredger in case of DRS shenanigans) has this problem, too. With that said, the Wraith has other advantages, like being harder to counter, putting the card back into our hand directly, and acting as fuel for Ichorid. I feel like it's a better call to run it instead of Revival.

The only card on which I feel like we can rely for those situations (and, perhaps more importantly, against Surgical Extraction) is Memory's Journey. I don't think it's a stable enough card to run in multiples, but I may be wrong about that. I'm running a whole lot of reanimation targets in my 'board right now, and I think that if I cut one of those cards, the thing I'll add to the sideboard is a second Memory's Journey specifically because it's so good against Deathrite.

Extirpate still cuts up our whole plan. Not sure we've really got an answer to it because Split Second is one of those things better left unprinted.

Hope I'm not being too harsh! Sincerely, I'm interested to hear further input regarding these cards, my sideboard choices, and my attempts at rational analysis. If anyone's got data they can provide, that'd be fantastic, so thanks in advance.

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Not harsh at all. As you can all probably tell i'm new to the deck.

Jeff Hoogland is currently streaming a bit of Dredge action, for those interested.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

I'm not a big fan of Ingot Chewers, either, primarily because they only hit artifacts (and not enchantments) and we can't cast them in response to anything's hitting the field. Looks like it shines against Grafdigger's Cage, which is pretty cool, but I feel like the major strength of Nature's Claim is that it hits either artifacts (esp. Grafdigger's) or enchantments (Rest in Peace, Leyline of the Void).

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To add to your thought here;

I started running a couple of Ingot Chewer and/or Wispmare after I had some good experiences running them against soft-lock perm's like Trinisphere & Chalice of the Void @ 1.
They're not a necessity, but they're a good way through cards like these, as Nature's Claim is typically ineffective.

I usually have 2 or 3 of the Evoke creatures in my side for flexibility, but I usually run a minimum of 3 Claims also.
Another option is Wear/Tear.

I guess it's just more ways to beat dredge hate. Bringing in 4 claim and 4 chewer doesn't seem crazy in this meta. And chewer Also triggers bridge.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by sampi

I guess it's just more ways to beat dredge hate. Bringing in 4 claim and 4 chewer doesn't seem crazy in this meta. And chewer Also triggers bridge.

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Just be careful how many you side in. LED-dredge suffers with consistency if you side in too much. Also bear in mind that *Plan A* is often enough to get a win through non-terminal hate like extraction.
I try to keep the cards I sub in/out to around 3 to 6, opponent dependant.

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Originally Posted by slave

Just be careful how many you side in. LED-dredge suffers with consistency if you side in too much. Also bear in mind that *Plan A* is often enough to get a win through non-terminal hate like extraction.
I try to keep the cards I sub in/out to around 3 to 6, opponent dependant.

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How do you feel dredge will do in the current meta?

I haven't actually play tested the miracles match up yet. But RIP plus instant speed terminus seems bad already.

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Originally Posted by sampi

How do you feel dredge will do in the current meta?

I haven't actually play tested the miracles match up yet. But RIP plus instant speed terminus seems bad already.

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There's good news and bad news. The bad news is what you said: RiP wrecks us and Terminus is a constant threat. Also, Clique can cause major problems if we're running light on dredgers and our anti-RiP tech is likely to get countertopped.

The good news: we have a much faster clock than they do, even if they put together countertop, and Iona's a silver bullet against them.

I haven't played against Miracles with this deck in some time (I can't remember anything about how it went), but I don't think it's a one-sided matchup. Definitely not a good matchup for us, but not too good for them, either. Pretty opening-hand dependent, I think.

Without the RIP G1 they're not too bad just as long as you don't overextend your Ichorids into a Terminus. Just bring one back and generate a few zombies to beat them down with to force them to Terminus. I may not even bother to attack them with the Ichorid that turn if they're holding up Mana for either Snapcaster Mage or Vendilion Clique so as to not lose my bridges course that depends on whether I've already seen their hand via Cabal Therapy.

I hate playing against Miracles.

Recently I've been popping TWO Iona's (naming white of course) & 3 DR's (total) in the side to try and better my track record against Miracles and a few other decks.
Having them there is one thing, but so far I can't recall ever landing Iona against Miracles, due to counter, and I play them often enough.
So far my track record against M in game 1 is favourable against the non-Helm/RiP versions, in game 2 and 3 it's abysmal....

I tend to play fairly conservative with my Icky's in this matchup too.

One thing I feel bears repeating about Terminus is that, if we try to strip it with Cabal Therapy, name Brainstorm if the opponent can't produce six mana.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

One thing I feel bears repeating about Terminus is that, if we try to strip it with Cabal Therapy, name Brainstorm if the opponent can't produce six mana.

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Why are they not brainstorming in response to Cabal Therapy? :/

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Originally Posted by Que

Why are they not brainstorming in response to Cabal Therapy? :/

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They would, but multiple Brainstorms would still bring out Terminus down the road. If they've gotten to six lands, I think we're pretty much dead anyway, and if they've got a Sensei's Top on the table Therapy doesn't help us. If they don't, Brainstorm and Top are the only things they might still have in hand that could pull out an insta-Terminus on us until they get to six mana.

As I think about it, naming Top in this situation might be better simply because it's integral to the way their deck works regardless of the presence of Terminus.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

They would, but multiple Brainstorms would still bring out Terminus down the road. If they've gotten to six lands, I think we're pretty much dead anyway, and if they've got a Sensei's Top on the table Therapy doesn't help us. If they don't, Brainstorm and Top are the only things they might still have in hand that could pull out an insta-Terminus on us until they get to six mana.

As I think about it, naming Top in this situation might be better simply because it's integral to the way their deck works regardless of the presence of Terminus.

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I've having a hard time following your logic tbh. Can you just backup your claims/statements with support or examples.

btw the only time you should actually be "pretty dead anyway" is when your opponent drops a RIP or Cage and you don't have any means of interaction. Any other time you should be in the game regardless of how many lands your opponent possesses. My two cents.

Excluding the Helm builds, it's difficult to lose to Miracles game one. All you have to do is one burst of damage. Say, putting them to 12 or below. That puts them in a situation where they most likely cannot save themselves with an Entreat. Then you want to just put enough on the board to guarantee damage every turn. If it's an Ichorid, you only need one. They won't have a Plow every time. Then if your Ichorid nets you more than one zombie, you don't even bring it back. A turn where you know you won't be bringing one back usually I will choose to draw a card instead of dredging. It forces them to be more wary of you comboing them out. Without MD hate, their clock is too anemic to force you to commit more. And worst case scenario, if they do Entreat, you should have them in a position where you have extra Ichorids to force them to Terminus the whole board. This especially is where taking your free draws when you get them is good. Since you can reload quickly if you are forced to allow them to Terminus for value. They most often can't Entreat for value anyway, since all of those Forces, Plows, and Terminus they take means they aren't drawing lands. They don't have actual card advantage to get both. Except for the Predict builds. Which I'm fine with if they want to hold open two mana to play.

Post board, I've found specifically vs Miracles, and if you've won game one, it's better to just attempt to combo turns one or two. They have lots of hate, and many ways to find it. In addition to their board wipes and RFG effects, of course. Every turn you give them puts you farther in the hole. The vast majority don't run hate that costs less than two. And they really don't have much countermagic active the first couple of turns. its obviously high risk, since this plan wont give you the slots to remove a RiP. But realistically, if Miracles resolves one, the odds of you successfully removing it, and still being able to mount an offense in the face of their removal, disruption, and other hate, is slim. And gets worse with every turn they get.

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Originally Posted by Que

I've having a hard time following your logic tbh. Can you just backup your claims/statements with support or examples.

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I haven't taken Dredge for a spin in a couple of weeks (scene's been a bit dead lately), but a while ago I remember an opponent's responding to Therapy by Brainstorming to float Terminus near the top of his deck with another Brainstorm in hand. There wasn't much I could do to stop him at that point because even if I flashed back the Therapy, he could just Brainstorm again to hide or fire the Terminus at us. I hadn't realized that it didn't matter whether I named Terminus because he'd get the chance to play it anyway, even if he didn't have countermagic to stop the Therapy.

I only realized the other day that Top would have worked similarly. In the above situation, if he'd had Top in his hand instead of the second Brainstorm, he wouldn't have been able to respond to a flashed back Therapy, but he could just keep rearranging his top three to keep the Terminus ready.

Naming and hitting Top or Brainstorm off Therapy might shut off the shenanigans unless they've got a Top on the board already.

I agree that chipping away at their life total bit by bit and forcing them to fire Terminus when it doesn't remove much is the best option, but we've got to be really careful. I was just pointing out that if Miracles has mana open, Therapy doesn't do much good if we name the threat. It's the stuff they run that lets them accelerate/manipulate their threats that we need to worry about.

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Originally Posted by Que

btw the only time you should actually be "pretty dead anyway" is when your opponent drops a RIP or Cage and you don't have any means of interaction.

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I should've been clearer regarding the "six lands" thing. What I meant was mostly that we burn through our library so quickly that the game's usually been over by the time my opponent's found a sixth land. Definitely not impossible for us to win when that happens, but I find that those games are really rare and usually they've only lasted so many turns because I'm on the back foot topdecking for an answer to Cage, RiP, Leyline, etc. If Miracles can't bring out Terminus for :w:, they probably won't get to play it unless we're stuck already.

Hope I made some sense! If you've got suggestions or critiques, I'd be glad to hear them.

Went along night before last to another Legacy night. Really poor turn out, only 9 of us turned up to play (including me!)
Anyway, I went 4-0 :laugh:
Played Jund, Mono-R Burn, Hypergenesis & Shardless-BUG.
All were 2-0 apart from BUG, 2-1. Kinda disappointed I didn't get to play against Miracles, given our current discussion, as there was 2 players there running it.

BUG was a close run thing. I can't remember actually beating this deck before (I don't get to play against it very often)
I won game1 quickly. Decided to go all-in speed in game2, siding in Petals. He 2x extracted me and got there with Goyf.
Game 3 I sided in answers to artifacts (chewer x2, Claims x3) and played aggressively through a T1 DRS.
He didn't seem to draw much in there way of answers so maybe I got lucky.
Didn't see Cage this time, but he did land Null Rod. I haven't seen Null Rod played by anyone against dredge for ages!

Hypergenesis was just pure comedy. in game2 he played a Hypergenesis, dropping a Griselbrand. I landed Iona & 2 GGT's. :tongue:

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Originally Posted by Parcher

Post board, I've found specifically vs Miracles, and if you've won game one, it's better to just attempt to combo turns one or two.

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I've tried that before without much luck. Do you have any specific way of playing this out, or is it just simply *go for it* like you might when gold-fishing for pure speed?

And while we're at it, how do you guys play against Shardless BUG? What do you typically side in? And how do you usually fare against them?

Well, there was no Legacy at the local on Sunday because of the prerelease. I got to play some battles against Eldrazi afterward, though; I did ok; I think we broke even or I went 2-3.

I maindecked two Street Wraiths for the matchup instead of PImps. I didn't get the chance to use them very much, but they worked when a Chalice cut off my one-drops. I'm hoping to test with three in the maindeck and one in the 'board next time I take the deck out.

I also tried going up to 3x Dread Return, 1x Blazing Archon, 1x Flayer of the Hatebound (I've got a G-Brand and 2 Dreads in the main and I kept the Wraiths in), which worked pretty well. I also boarded in a Ray of Revelation and an Ancient Grudge, which weren't fantastic, but worked ok; at one point I Grudged out the opponent's Chalice to get comboing. It didn't happen in the matchup, but conceivably we could flash back a Ray to snipe Rest in Peace in response to its exile trigger. I replaced Careful Studies and, I think, a Golgari Thug. I don't know that I would board out the Thug again because I had some really awkward draws with only 11 dredgers and fewer cantrips.

The Eldrazi player was running Displacer, Skyspawner, and Drowner of Hope. The token generators made it hard to stick Bridge from Below, so keep in mind that Eldrazi doesn't require graveyard hate to stop our Bridges. Endless One does this for free, so watch out. He also had a number of Rest in Peace in the sideboard. I think his deck only ran six lock pieces (maybe more in the sideboard), so Cabal Therapy on the play was pretty useful to take hate out of his hand. I usually named Rest in Peace or the biggest dude in his hand if I was firing blindly.

The games in which my opponent beat me were when either he could land Thought-Knot to hit important accelerants or he could junk my Bridges by sacrificing tokens.

Ichorid did a ton of work here. I'm keeping four in my maindeck in part to deal with this matchup, because if we lose our Bridges we need any attackers we can find. In one game I managed to chip away at his total (as he did to mine) until I could Dread Return a Flayer off of my Ichorids to win the game. In another, I landed Blazing Archon. He had a couple of flying creatures to block it, but he couldn't find Dismember to remove the Archon in combat and I broke through.

I didn't find myself wanting to have Lotus Petal, but I'm not against its inclusion. I just felt like running alternatives to our one-costed looters was more useful in the face of Chalice and Thorn.

Que, thanks for the suggestion re: Street Wraith. I like it a lot more than I did PImp, though there were a couple of times that I would've liked to have a discard outlet.

Slave, I think the best thing we can do against Shardless is to just run as quickly as possible. The good news about the matchup is that they'll need to side out some of their really savage cards like Hymn to Tourach. The bad news is Deathrite Shaman, but again, I think we can race it. I played against Elves the other night, and racing the deck's DRS worked pretty well. Granted, Elves doesn't run countermagic.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Que, thanks for the suggestion re: Street Wraith. I like it a lot more than I did PImp, though there were a couple of times that I would've liked to have a discard outlet.

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IMO Pimp gets worse the longer the game goes on. I think wraith would be fine in the SB.
Here's my current list. Still needs more testing.

4 Gemstone Mine [TSB]
4 Mana Confluence [JOU]
4 Cephalid Coliseum [ODY]
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Lion's Eye Diamond [MIR]
4 Breakthrough [TOR]
4 Faithless Looting [DKA]
4 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy [JUD]
3 Putrid Imp [TOR]
4 Ichorid [TOR]
4 Narcomoeba [FUT]
4 Golgari Grave-Troll [RAV]
4 Stinkweed Imp [RAV]
4 Golgari Thug [RAV]
4 Bridge from Below [FUT]

3 Dread Return [TSP]
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria [ZEN]
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite [NPH]
1 Blazing Archon [RAV]
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Nature's Claim
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Darkblast/Street Wraith

What cards do you guys normally take out to bring in DR package?

Also, has anyone tried realm razer in their decks before? I don't know how much of a blowout the razer is because lands has a lot of redundant cards and it's not a super fast clock.

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Originally Posted by sampi

IMO Pimp gets worse the longer the game goes on. I think wraith would be fine in the SB.
Here's my current list. Still needs more testing.

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Wraith helps us get out of the gate quickly, but it's a one-shot if we don't Thug it back to the top of our deck. PImp doesn't give a speed boost, but a consistency boost, making it better to have one on the table when we're dredging later in the game. Neither one helps us do anything but bring back Icky if we don't draw it naturally, though.

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Originally Posted by sampi

What cards do you guys normally take out to bring in DR package?

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A quick comment on your list: I would recommend keeping at least one Dread Return in the main, even if your only targets are Grave-Trolls. The thing that makes Dread Return and Cabal Therapy so useful is that their flashback cost generates tokens, and because the sacrifice is part of the cost of the spell, we get the tokens even if Dread Return gets countered. Therapy will make a token for every Bridge in your yard, but Dread Return makes three tokens per Bridge.

Regarding your question, it depends on the matchup for me. I tend to only bring in extra reanimation targets against decks with Chalice or other hate permanents that keep us from doing our thing. Containment Priest is an exception because, well...

Other places where bringing in more bruisers would help would be against Show and Tell and maybe Reanimator, simply because they both have reciprocal effects (S&T and Exhume). Not sure what I would cut at this point because we already have a pretty reasonable shot at going crazy in both matchups.

Versus Chalice-heavy decks, our big problem is that they can shut us off of our Looting effects at the drop of a hat. Having more Street Wraiths can give us non-spell dredges, and using more Dread Returns and viable targets is supposed to make it easier to bring back a game-breaking threat before they can lock us up. I've been cutting all my copies of Careful Study and 1x Thug or Ichorid to make it happen, but I'm thinking of cutting a Faithless Looting or LED, or maybe one Bridge instead because they've got so many ways to sacrifice creatures. I'd never, ever board out Bridge in any other matchup, but Eldrazi Spawn and Endless Ones are made to stop us from doing our thing.

I wouldn't ever board out Therapy in that matchup because it can still get us Bridge tokens even if the spell gets countered. It's also a total beast on the play, especially if we can flash it back quickly if we miss on our first cast.

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Originally Posted by sampi

Also, has anyone tried realm razer in their decks before? I don't know how much of a blowout the razer is because lands has a lot of redundant cards and it's not a super fast clock.

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I think Ashen Rider would be more useful in that matchup. Razer doesn't seem all that good in other matchups, it's a lot smaller (vulnerable to Punishing Fire), and two targeted exiles are hard to beat.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Other places where bringing in more bruisers would help would be against Show and Tell and maybe Reanimator...

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Against Reanimator, I side out all good targets for Reanimate. (I used to side in Faerie Macabre)

Just my opinion of course, but since they're generally faster than us I don't like to help them. FWIW, I remember once having an opponent Reanimator land one of mine, and one of theirs, within their first two turns. It's pretty hard to come back from Elesh & Griselbrand!
:cry:

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Originally Posted by slave

Against Reanimator, I side out all good targets for Reanimate. (I used to side in Faerie Macabre)

Just my opinion of course, but since they're generally faster than us I don't like to help them. FWIW, I remember once having an opponent Reanimator land one of mine, and one of theirs, within their first two turns. It's pretty hard to come back from Elesh & Griselbrand!
:cry:

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True, but the matchup is so lopsided in their favor you might as well still try to combo them and land an Iona on Black.

Brought dredge to a casual tournament last night. List is the one from my above post. Was a bit skeptical/nervous as I am still fairly new to the deck. But here we go

R1 Spanish Inquisition

G1 I was on the draw. I had a great hand. Went land, led, breakthrough, flash back looting and took over from there.

G2 Got lucky on the fact that he whiffed a bit. And DR + Iona naming black was enough.

Not much to say here. It's pretty much just a race.

-2 Careful Study 1 Land
+2 DR 1 Iona

2-0 and 1-0 for the night


R2 Eldrazi with White splash

This guy is also a vintage player and has played against dredge a lot more times than I've actually played it. So it was safe to say I had my work cut out.

G1 He plays thorn I lead with Pimp and pass. He plays temple into mimic. I discard grave troll get an ichorid in the yard but not much else action going on. Then thought knot seer joins the party and he attacks for 4. I hit a couple of bridges off the next dredge but no narcomoebas or therapy . He plays his MD containment priest so at this point i'm in trouble. Then i'm forced to block his mimic and bridge gets exiled and i lose on the following turn. Safe to say I misplayed a lot there but at least I know now.

G2 Can't remember as much of this one but it was similar. Kept a shaky hand, got unlucky with dredges and he was too fast.

-2 Careful Study -1 Pimp
+2 DR +1 Blazing Archon

I didn't see any endless ones luckily. Need to practice this matchup a lot more and i'm fairly sure looking back I could have sided a bit better.

0-2 and 1-1 for the night.


R3 Reanimator

I keep losing die rolls and am on the draw again.

G1 He opts not to thoughtsieze t1 missing the LED but he has a counter for the breakthrough. I flashback looting then therapy his brainstorm away. I make enough zombies that griselbrand doesn't get him back in the game.

G2 Turn 2 elesh norn plus griselbrand.

G3 Same thing.

I wouldn't mind some faerie macabre for this matchup. Also having a FKZ would have helped G3 before he gets out elesh norn.

-1 Breakthrough - 1 Careful Study -1 Ichorid - 1 Pimp
+2 DR +1 Blazing Archon +1 Iona

1-2 and 1-2 for the night.

Going forward will definitely add a couple of copies of DR to the main and cut a land.

sooo i intentionally drew into 9th this past weekend at the Baltimore Legacy Classic :/ going into the last round i had a 4% lead in tiebreakers over the guy who finished 8th so i thought i was safely in but i guess through some absurdly bad luck i got jumped by him in the final standings...a 6% swing in tiebreaks against me in the last round is almost unheard of but whatever, shit happens. played the same list i played in the recent IQ which i posted a few pages back, for reference.

That's bad luck! Still really good effort though

Also I noticed you have the full set of firestorm in the list. What's your thoughts on the card.


C


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Originally Posted by Cope

sooo i intentionally drew into 9th this past weekend at the Baltimore Legacy Classic :/ going into the last round i had a 4% lead in tiebreakers over the guy who finished 8th so i thought i was safely in but i guess through some absurdly bad luck i got jumped by him in the final standings...a 6% swing in tiebreaks against me in the last round is almost unheard of but whatever, shit happens. played the same list i played in the recent IQ which i posted a few pages back, for reference.

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Bad luck, man. Do you ever felt the absence of Abrupt Decay in your 75s?

RE: the full set of Firestorms and the lack of Abrupt Decay:

I run the full set of Firestorms in the sideboard because frankly I think it is the 2nd most important card in the entire SB, just behind Nature's Claim. It is there primarily for Deathrite Shaman decks, but can also be sided in in some number vs non-Deathrite Delver decks as you can sometimes remove their entire clock and it is an uncounterable discard outlet as well. Also it is basically the only way you have of dealing with a resolved Containment Priest (or Peacekeeper LOL, and other than Therapy before they get to 2 whole mana), and shines in the Death and Taxes matchup as a result a of Containment Priest existing or often just killing 2+ of their guys while facilitating your own game plan by discarding.

As for Abrupt Decay, I had tried it and Lotus Petals SB in local tournaments for a few months and found myself sometimes siding it in rather than the 3rd/4th Nature's Claim/Firestorm, but it didnt seem that great honestly and I've never missed them since going back. I run 9 rainbow lands MD and 1 more SB, and I've even seen people run fewer total, and even with some number of Lotus Petals SB it still seems incredibly optimistic to me to think that you're at all often going to have 2 rainbow mana sources with an Abrupt Decay in hand and that you needed to both be uncounterable and to be cast right then. FWIW Abrupt Decay doesnt hit Leyline of the Void, which has been showing up in some Eldrazi SBs (their GY hate is either that or Crypt/Faerie Macabre) as opposed to how it had been absent from the format forever until recently. It doesnt seem wrong per se to play some number of Abrupt Decay, but its just not my personal preference I guess and I just am overall not too impressed with it. My plan vs decks with Rest in Peace is to either Therapy them before they get to 2 whole mana (much easier if were on the play, as is often the case game 3), or to try and snag it with a Nature's Claim. Like if they draw a hand that can counter enough spells and have the hate too you will mostly just lose those games no matter what and you just have to accept that going in when you play Dredge. Similarly against Eldrazi, if they have Leyline/Crypt/Faerie Macabre and Chalice at 1 these are also games that we mostly will just lose no matter what and have to accept going in, and I dont think Abrupt Decay would help to turn these unwinnable situations around enough to make up for having to cut any number of Claims/Firestorms from the SB.

Firestorm is crap imo. I think people think its good because we only remember the times when we blow out our opponent with it. All other times its pretty mediocre plus is just gets way worse when you have to mulligan which this deck does often. Not to mention the nombo with BfB and if you're playing 4 in the board are you realistically going to bring in all 4 alongside the anti-hate cards (Nature's Claim)? I only bring this point up because you mentioned D&T. This deck also plays RIP, Enlightened Tutor, Wastelands, and Thalia outside of Contaiment Priest that all do things that interact with you. Boarding in 4 Firestorms is not going to win you this matchup. And I don't see any consistency if I plan on boarding in all firestorm and some number of claims; too many cards that don't accelerate your game plan.

I picked up the deck for the first time since Seattle this weekend. Didn't do well, but that's due to some questionable decisions I made, and three insane top decks by my opponents. Some thoughts on the current discussion.

Firestorm is not needed now. Especially if you are still running multiple PImps. Delver is at a very low ebb due to a hostile meta. So an uncounterable discard is less of a need. There is still no Aggro outside of Stompy decks. And beating the few Tribal decks hinges far more on speed and ability to clear hate, than their actual clock.

Decay lets you deal with every hate permanent besides Leyline. Including Priest, which is another reason to discard Firestorm. That alone should free up slots to allow you to deal with Leyline. Outside of Thalia effects, I've never had an issue casting it. Especially when you figure the one to two turns(paly or draw dependant) you get where your opponent can't even Waste you if they are trying to cast RiP or Priest. Cage is probably 4th among hate cards right now. But being able to start your GY, and guarantee you can get rid of Cage whenever you need is invaluable.

I do not like Street Wraith. I do believe that Ichorid has become the most important threat in the deck, and that you do need the Black creatures for continuation of threat. But I believe that you will do better with PImp. He lets you play around Deathrite almost as well as Wraith, and is far better against hate. Forcing bad decisions with Surgical, which Wraith does nothing against if the enemy isn't a moron, and letting you earmark mana on turn one in the face of hate. That is, playing him before you remove the hate, so you have a ready discard outlet if they tax your mana. I'm back on straight Quad, -1 PImp, +1 land(or Petal, to save SB room).

That said, Surgical is by far the most common hate seen currently. And the one it seems least addressed in sideboards. I'm testing a few Unmasks back in the SB. To deal with Surgical of course, and the counters of most decks that play it. But also for other Combo decks, and for the half of the Eldrazi decks that play Macabre over Leyline.

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Originally Posted by Parcher

That said, Surgical is by far the most common hate seen currently. And the one it seems least addressed in sideboards. I'm testing a few Unmasks back in the SB. To deal with Surgical of course, and the counters of most decks that play it. But also for other Combo decks, and for the half of the Eldrazi decks that play Macabre over Leyline.

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I've been testing Memory's Journey to address Surgical. And while the situation hasn't come up I do like its inclusion as its reminiscent to Ancient Grudge in that I can carry out my original gameplan without needing it in my opener.

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Originally Posted by Que

I've been testing Memory's Journey to address Surgical. And while the situation hasn't come up I do like its inclusion as its reminiscent to Ancient Grudge in that I can carry out my original gameplan without needing it in my opener.

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I'm running it as a 1-of as well. I actually had a game this weekend against DeathBlade where I won game one. Game two, I open with Unmask, which he Pierces. I then go land, Therapy, since he's obviously protecting hate. He Forces, and I pass the turn. He goes land, go. I play Petal, land, Looting, discarding a dredger and Journey. I then play Breakthrough with G open. He lets it resolve, and Surgicals Narco on the stack. I Journey one, and in response he Surgicals it. He then loses to Ichorids and Bridges since he only has land and TNN left in hand. One of the few great hands I had on the day. Especially running two Unmask, and one Journey. But it goes to show how having direct answers to hate, like Decay, destroys "Protect the Queen" hands from Blue players.

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Originally Posted by Parcher

I'm running it as a 1-of as well. I actually had a game this weekend against DeathBlade where I won game one. Game two, I open with Unmask, which he Pierces. I then go land, Therapy, since he's obviously protecting hate. He Forces, and I pass the turn. He goes land, go. I play Petal, land, Looting, discarding a dredger and Journey. I then play Breakthrough with G open. He lets it resolve, and Surgicals Narco on the stack. I Journey one, and in response he Surgicals it. He then loses to Ichorids and Bridges since he only has land and TNN left in hand. One of the few great hands I had on the day. Especially running two Unmask, and one Journey. But it goes to show how having direct answers to hate, like Decay, destroys "Protect the Queen" hands from Blue players.

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Nice game there. How many cards did you bring in against the Deathblade deck? Sounds like you boarded in Unmask, Petals, Abrupts, and the Journey. What did you end up taking out?

I feel like I should give Unmask another whirl its been a while and I do like that it can potentially help us out against the other faster combo decks.

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Originally Posted by Que

Nice game there. How many cards did you bring in against the Deathblade deck? Sounds like you boarded in Unmask, Petals, Abrupts, and the Journey. What did you end up taking out?

I feel like I should give Unmask another whirl its been a while and I do like that it can potentially help us out against the other faster combo decks.

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I tried running 2 Petals main over the 3rd PIMP, and 13th Land. Figured it could save SB space, and potentially give some game one accell. Unfortunately it hurts consistancy more than I want. You can't keep Petal only hands blind, or vs Delver. I brought in 2 Unmask, 1 Journey, 2 Decay, 1 Dread (still can't fit one main) and 1 Cabal Pit. Which I added as an extra land to cast Decay, and an out to Priest or Shaman. This Deathblade deck ran 1 along with their Surgical like most. I cut 4 LED, 1 Loot, and 2 Bthrough.

Unmask seemed good as a 2 of. I used to always run 4, but I've found its better as an ancillary or complimentary strategy than a primary one. The 2/1 split of it and Journey is the best I've found to deal with Surgical without being forced to remove any of the cards Surgical targets.

How about the idea of using a single Riftstone Portal in the sideboard to help cast Abrupt Decay using Cephalid Coliseum? Vintage lists use it to cast Serenity (2CMC) using Bazaar.

Hello :),
Since i have played some dredge myself, i have been wanting to ask: why not play grudge/ray? Unlike natures Claim (which i do play in addition) we dont have to have them in our opener to be efficient. My thoughprocess here is that, aside from Grafdiggers cage we can always reply to the gravehate they play. If we dont have them in our grave by then we can still go back to topdecking for it. Also the cmc 2 makes dodging cb/top easier and dodges chalice 1 of course. Furthermore if drawn they dont need 2 rainbow mana to be played, which feels way better compared to decay. Since we have to dredge whether or not we expect say a relic or a rip anyways they feel much better to me (not like anyone ever not cracked the relic in response to a natures claim) also revealing a grudge while he has a relic out forces him to crack it, which is nice. Of course i could be missing something important, but i am not seeing what that would be. Also if you were to maindeck a dread return + target which one would that be?

Edit: i do acknowledge the fact that decay can deal with annoying creatures(priest) and is always a better answer to gravehate when cast. I just feel its too unlikely/difficult to cobble together

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Originally Posted by quadich

Hello :),
Since i have played some dredge myself, i have been wanting to ask: why not play grudge/ray? Unlike natures Claim (which i do play in addition) we dont have to have them in our opener to be efficient. My thoughprocess here is that, aside from Grafdiggers cage we can always reply to the gravehate they play. If we dont have them in our grave by then we can still go back to topdecking for it. Also the cmc 2 makes dodging cb/top easier and dodges chalice 1 of course. Furthermore if drawn they dont need 2 rainbow mana to be played, which feels way better compared to decay. Since we have to dredge whether or not we expect say a relic or a rip anyways they feel much better to me (not like anyone ever not cracked the relic in response to a natures claim) also revealing a grudge while he has a relic out forces him to crack it, which is nice. Of course i could be missing something important, but i am not seeing what that would be. Also if you were to maindeck a dread return + target which one would that be?

Edit: i do acknowledge the fact that decay can deal with annoying creatures(priest) and is always a better answer to gravehate when cast. I just feel its too unlikely/difficult to cobble together

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The principal difficulties behind Grudge and Ray are that they can only hit artifacts OR enchantments—not both—and that they're actually not that useful against most of the cards that really shut down our deck.

Think of it this way: if you have Ray of Revelation in your graveyard and your opponent casts Rest in Peace, what do you do? You can cast Ray to kill the RiP, but the RiP's "exile everything" trigger still happens. So you won't have to worry about future discards or dredges, but you've still lost your whole graveyard.

Ancient Grudge is even worse because the artifacts we most need to worry about seeing either yield the same end result as the above scenario (e.g., Relic of Progenitus burns out our 'yard) or, worse, they stop us from casting Grudge simply by being there (Grafdigger's Cage).

Neither card deals with the worst threats like Surgical Extraction and Extirpate.

I still have a Ray in my sideboard because I do like the idea of having an extra answer to Leyline and Pals, but I think Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation are pretty narrow.

I'm in the anti-Decay camp. It requires more lands or alternative mana sources than I'd be comfortable running, and I don't think there are many situations in which it's our card of choice (crucially, it doesn't hit Leyline of the Void). Being uncounterable is nice, but I don't think it's a card our deck is built to handle on only eight lands that could produce the necessary pair of colors.

well yeah i get that. but we usually deal with either artifacts or enchantments not both so with some complementary nature claims it is still rock solid. Also Natures claim still has the issue of them burning our yard with relic or RiP so we have to deal with that either way(unless annul becomes a thing ^^). So our graveyard gets nuked either way. the upside i see with grudge/ray is that they are okay in our hand but also good when they are in our yard (aside from grafdiggers cage). So i feel its less dependent on the hand we keep which is nice ( i think). With 2 ray, 2 grudge and 3-4 claims we still have 5-6 answers to any thread. I dont think boarding in anything beyond 5-6 cards is overboarding. I also play memorys journey to fight surgical ( extripate blows us out no matter what we do). But regarding permanent hate i'd say ray/grudge are pretty much ideal which is why i was mystified to find that few people play them.

Simply asserting that "Firestorm is crap" makes me question who you are and how much/if any experience and results you actually have with the deck "Que", other than just posting on here a ton and having a Breakthrough as your avatar, no offense. But yeah, to address the points you were trying to make: against a deck like Death and Taxes I would SB in 3 Claim, 3 Firestorm and the 10th rainbow land for game 2 (assuming we won game 1), because they could/do have Rest in Peace/Cage and/or Containment Priest, like you said. These numbers can be adjusted 4-2 in favor of either Claim or Firestorm for game 3 depending on what hate you lose to/see. Firestorm is also very useful against Deathrite decks, which I realize Abrupt Decay can also kill, but at least a full turn slower, and simply being able to Firestorm on your first turn or their end step to kill a Deathrite and additionally discard dredgers or other cards you just want in the GY can be a game winning play all on its own. And even if you go land, go vs. a Deathrite deck and they dont have it and say Ponder on their turn 1, you can still uncounterably discard 2 cards end step with it, shock your opponent and self, and be ready to untap and start dredging/go off if you have draw effects in hand. Also, you usually cast Firestorm during one of the first few turns of the game if at all, so this "nonbo" with Bridge from Below is an almost nonexistent scenario that pretty much never comes up, and if it came down to it id happily trade 1 exiled Bridge if it meant killing a Deathrite Shaman. The only deck you snap board in 4 Firestorms in against is Elves, which is one of our best matchups anyways, but also one that becomes so much better after SB because of this. The full set can also be useful against D&T if you see game 2 that theyre on more creature-based hate, or against Grixis Delver decks with Deathrite who have Surgicals as their hate rather than artifacts. I could see going down to 3 Firestorms honestly, but the assertion that "Firestorm is crap" is laughable to me and reflects a lack of knowledge and/or experience, imo.

Memory's Journey is also a card I've just never thought was good enough. While Surgical does seem to be the most common hate atm, its also hate that is generally very hard to do anything about, and a single one is often not enough to beat us anyways. Plus, people usually just Surgical the first Narcomoeba/Bridge/Ichorid you hit, or try to take your only dredger at the beginning in hopes of preventing our engine from ever getting started. So it seems unlikely/optimistic to me that at the time they are casting their Surgical that you would have already hit your 1 Memory's Journey and have G untapped. It would be a good card to SB in for the Reanimator matchup, which is one of our worst, but that benefit still doesnt seem worth it to me. Against Reanimator i just SB in my other Dread Return, Iona, and FKZ and hope to outdraw/race them (since we just straight cant beat an Elesh Norn period unless we have one too and get it on the table first).

I do however like the idea of Unmask in the SB and may try that out in place of Ingot Chewer/Ancient Grudge, and am also not opposed to testing out Abrupt Decay and Lotus Petals again in the future. Basically the cards I know I want in my SB are: 1 Dread Return (1 MD), Iona, FKZ, Gemstone Mine (10th rainbow land). The other 11 cards for me right now are 4 Claim, 4 Firestorm, 2 Ingot Chewer, 1 Ancient Grudge, but for the other 11 slots I could see trying some configuration of 2 Unmask, 2-3 Firestorm, 2-3 Abrupt Decay, 2-3 Nature Claim, 1-2 Lotus Petal and maybe a Chain of Vapor (another answer to Leyline if cutting down to 2 Claims) or an Elesh Norn, which I've been thinking about bringing back as the 3rd DR target. Cabal Pit also seems interesting as a land that can help cast Abrupt Decay and potentially answer a Deathrite Shaman or Containment Priest, though I'm not sure where it could fit in.

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Originally Posted by Cope

Simply asserting that "Firestorm is crap" makes me question who you are and how much/if any experience and results you actually have with the deck "Que", other than just posting on here a ton and having a Breakthrough as your avatar, no offense. But yeah, to address the points you were trying to make: against a deck like Death and Taxes I would SB in 3 Claim, 3 Firestorm and the 10th rainbow land for game 2 (assuming we won game 1), because they could/do have Rest in Peace/Cage and/or Containment Priest, like you said. These numbers can be adjusted 4-2 in favor of either Claim or Firestorm for game 3 depending on what hate you lose to/see. Firestorm is also very useful against Deathrite decks, which I realize Abrupt Decay can also kill, but at least a full turn slower, and simply being able to Firestorm on your first turn or their end step to kill a Deathrite and additionally discard dredgers or other cards you just want in the GY can be a game winning play all on its own. And even if you go land, go vs. a Deathrite deck and they dont have it and say Ponder on their turn 1, you can still uncounterably discard 2 cards end step with it, shock your opponent and self, and be ready to untap and start dredging/go off if you have draw effects in hand. Also, you usually cast Firestorm during one of the first few turns of the game if at all, so this "nonbo" with Bridge from Below is an almost nonexistent scenario that pretty much never comes up, and if it came down to it id happily trade 1 exiled Bridge if it meant killing a Deathrite Shaman. The only deck you snap board in 4 Firestorms in against is Elves, which is one of our best matchups anyways, but also one that becomes so much better after SB because of this. The full set can also be useful against D&T if you see game 2 that theyre on more creature-based hate, or against Grixis Delver decks with Deathrite who have Surgicals as their hate rather than artifacts. I could see going down to 3 Firestorms honestly, but the assertion that "Firestorm is crap" is laughable to me and reflects a lack of knowledge and/or experience, imo.

Memory's Journey is also a card I've just never thought was good enough. While Surgical does seem to be the most common hate atm, its also hate that is generally very hard to do anything about, and a single one is often not enough to beat us anyways. Plus, people usually just Surgical the first Narcomoeba/Bridge/Ichorid you hit, or try to take your only dredger at the beginning in hopes of preventing our engine from ever getting started. So it seems unlikely/optimistic to me that at the time they are casting their Surgical that you would have already hit your 1 Memory's Journey and have G untapped. It would be a good card to SB in for the Reanimator matchup, which is one of our worst, but that benefit still doesnt seem worth it to me. Against Reanimator i just SB in my other Dread Return, Iona, and FKZ and hope to outdraw/race them (since we just straight cant beat an Elesh Norn period unless we have one too and get it on the table first).

I do however like the idea of Unmask in the SB and may try that out in place of Ingot Chewer/Ancient Grudge, and am also not opposed to testing out Abrupt Decay and Lotus Petals again in the future. Basically the cards I know I want in my SB are: 1 Dread Return (1 MD), Iona, FKZ, Gemstone Mine (10th rainbow land). The other 11 cards for me right now are 4 Claim, 4 Firestorm, 2 Ingot Chewer, 1 Ancient Grudge, but for the other 11 slots I could see trying some configuration of 2 Unmask, 2-3 Firestorm, 2-3 Abrupt Decay, 2-3 Nature Claim, 1-2 Lotus Petal and maybe a Chain of Vapor (another answer to Leyline if cutting down to 2 Claims) or an Elesh Norn, which I've been thinking about bringing back as the 3rd DR target. Cabal Pit also seems interesting as a land that can help cast Abrupt Decay and potentially answer a Deathrite Shaman or Containment Priest, though I'm not sure where it could fit in.

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Que? I'll just leave this here:
https://youtu.be/FspXTnBeWd8
You could also look up Joseph Moreno on the Top8 sites.

Peace out!

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Originally Posted by SHABOOGS

How about the idea of using a single Riftstone Portal in the sideboard to help cast Abrupt Decay using Cephalid Coliseum? Vintage lists use it to cast Serenity (2CMC) using Bazaar.

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Both Leyline and RiP nullify it. And it would have to take a non-land slot, since it can't cast anything in play. Other than that it seems good.

I don't believe Decay is needed right now for hate. I added it when Cage and RiP were top threats, and Priest had just hit the scene. RiP is still second, behind Surgical in threat penetration in the meta. But, as most Dredge players know, it's simply better to race RiP than to try to remove and recover in most cases. First problem is, against Blue decks, that's just not feasible. They will either use their counters to stop you from going off before RiP lands, or they will protect it with them should they land it before you can threaten them. On that note, in those cases, I've never had difficulty having time to assemble the mana to cast Decay. If you get to that position with Claim, you lose.

Second problem is Eldrazi. Chalice is a serious issue for this deck, which Claim doesn't answer. And there are several Stompy and Tezz-like decks that are piggybacking on Eldrazi's success running Chalice as well. On the flip side, there's decks running stuff like Bridge and Peacekeeper and the like to combat the Eldrazi, which Decay answers as well. The other problem, is that about half the Eldrazi decks are running Leyline. Where Claim obviously is superior. So that's maybe 2% of any tournament running a card that they only have, at most, 40% chance of casting. Ever. Don't know how much I'd devote, or warp my SB to answer this. Be like Eldrazi warping their deck to deal with the 1-of Moat popping up in Miracles decks now.