View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #17761
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

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  2. #17762
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    This is my favorite thread to read while eating lunch at work. Takeout might as well be popcorn.
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by danyul View Post
    This is my favorite thread to read while eating lunch at work. Takeout might as well be popcorn.
    Reading this thread is like watching two bampots kicking each other in the nuts, while arguing who is wearing the more egregious footwear.
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  4. #17764

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Obviously if you remove a card from a format and nothing changes its not a banable card. Its like suggesting that we take out Hill Giants for the simple reason that you dislike the artwork and thus do not want to see it played against you.
    Say as a hypothetical that there is a new Mana Clash worded such that it never deals any damage to its controller and if it doesn't charge up to 20 damage then it fizzles and does nothing.
    I made a program that simulates resolving it and ran it 10 million times and it seems to lead to a turn 1 kill (with actual mana clash this is for either player but in my hypothetical example just for the player who is casting it) 0.012% of the time. Obviously this is not a percentage that would make it worth playing in legacy (even if it was entirely one-sided).
    However, what happens if you tweak the numbers on damage per flip?
    If you make it 2 damage per flip then the chance of a turn 1 kill doesn't double, it in fact goes up to 0.78%. If you make it 5 damage per flip then we are up to 5.66%. You can imagine some value of damage increment where this card becomes actually scary to the point where people have some success in tournaments with it.

    Would the existence of this card change the appearance of the format much? People in legacy already need to prepare for scary spells on turn 1, there isn't really a lifegain effect you can play that would be early and powerful enough to eclipse the effect of this card, would people really maindeck hydroblast to counter a card that has a decent chance to not do anything at all?

    Yet every time somebody played this card on turn 1 and won it would be fucking awful.

    If your argument is only about "Well only if it was good enough that it appeared in more than X percent of top 8s, then of course I would ban it" then (in my opinion) you are missing the point.
    Either you die on turn 1 or the card fizzles and now you are a huge favourite because your opponent wasted a mana and a card. The result is largely outside of your control. That sounds bad enough to me that I wouldn't want to play against it even once in any given tournament. And banning it wouldn't change the format landscape at all, only that you no longer have to worry about playing against this lottery anymore.

    You can argue about how close this allegory is to the reality of Chalice but I think there are some obvious parallels. The main point is "Well if banning it wouldn't change the metagame then there isn't any reason to ban it" is a poor argument. (How many people would play (and win with) Shahrazad tomorrow if they unbanned that).

    The only way to refute this (other than to agree with the general principle but disagree that Chalice is at that level of awful) is to have no interest in what actually happens in a game of Legacy. You bring your deck, your opponent brings their deck, you have X percent chance of winning the matchup, you play, one of you wins. Next round. Who played what cards? Doesn't matter, I signed the slip, already forgotten about it.

    Another alternative is to view these 'decision free' games as something which is actually desirable. At the end of the day it's just my opinion but I find both of these positions pretty stupid. I don't have a problem with a format having only a handful of viable decks (or even only 1) as long as those decks have gameplay where the result of the matches are largely determined by the skill of the players. I find that the existence of Chalice decks pushes the format away from that (_in_my_opinion_) ideal scenario.

  5. #17765
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The issue is, this already happens. TES, Opps, Beltcher, these decks have a good shot at turn one wins. Should we ban Dread Return, Beltcher, Rite of Flame and Empty the Warren's for good measure?

    Feel bad is not an argument. A card that randomly wins on turn one sucks, sure, but it's nothing we have not had to deal with before. In fact Chalice is not even the best at what it does, 3Ball is. I promise you I have won more games that I landed a turn one 3Ball than a turn one Chalice.

    But if that's the measure, that we have non games or not fun games, there are a long list of cards that have to go before Chalice. Wasteland I think would be the most egregious offender of this class of card, it's obviously the first target. The amount of games I have won thanks to a first turn Wasteland is quite a large number. (Granted my sample size is large.)

    If your reasoning for seeking a banning is, at the heart of it, 'I don't like what this card does' then I have to say that nedleeds has you all beat on making himself heard on such matters. Because that's not a banning offence. If your comment is 'It creates non games' I will also state that's not a banning offence. I can't even tell you how many games I lost against RUG playing Goblins where I ate a Wasteland, a Stifle or a Force and then died to a Mongoose.

    Non games are not only a common sight in Legacy, they are every decks plan.
    DnT wants you to not play anything, locking out your options and stripping away your Lands.
    Delver wants to, these days, either rip apart your hand or your Mana base and then counter anything you try and achieve.
    Lands wants you crying and begging for mommy.
    Storm wants to force you to discard anything that's relevant and kill you.
    Eldrazi wants to hamper your early plays and kill you with big boys.
    Maverick, the fairest of decks, wanted to kill your mana base, play a Thalia and the kill you with a Knight that was bigger than anything you could cast.

    None of these are decks that a made to play 'Fair'. Put another way "There are no truly fair decks in Legacy". No one, not even Burn, wants a fair game. Everything is made to either lock you down or ignore you. Playing a deck like DnT and then complaining about "Non games" is hypocritical, because non games are your plan, you just disapprove of the way someone else is trying to achieve that same goal.

    Anyway. I think I am going to sit Chalice next to Brainstorm as a card I no longer talk about. Because I just plainly can not understand the argument for how Legacy gets better if you remove it. But hey, if non games are a banable offence, can we lose Bloodmoon, RIP, Leyline of thr Void, TNN, Thalia, Prelate and SnT all at the same time? I promise you I will not complain about that trade.
    Last edited by Dice_Box; 10-13-2017 at 09:09 AM.
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  6. #17766
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    It would look 100% the same, there would just be fewer games that were over on turn 1.
    So if we ever play against each other......would you sign my Chalices after the match?



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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Thank you Dice for giving me a new signature and pointing me to that hilarious Pirate Stompy thread. I guess I need to get back into browsing the N&D subforum more often.

    On topic: I don't find anything oppressive at the moment, but if a creature would be banned than I find Delver or Griselbrand more suitable options than DRS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Non games are not only a common sight in Legacy, they are every decks plan. [...] Playing a deck like DnT and then complaining about "Non games" is hypocritical, because non games are your plan, you just disapprove of the way someone else is trying to achieve that same goal.

  8. #17768

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    But hey, if non games are a banable offence, can we lose Bloodmoon, RIP, Leyline of thr Void, TNN, Thalia, Prelate and SnT all at the same time? I promise you I will not complain about that trade.
    Please? Please can we do it? God that would be amazing.

    More seriously though, I think Wasteland is a much more interesting card than chalice, and I think a lot of the other decks you cited as being T1/uninteractive are much cooler to play against than chalice decks; they feel like they have some nuance or cool interactions that sol land > chalice > limited playable cmc 3 or 4 beater just....don't feel like they have. Something about the sol land lock piece just feels random and dumb (which I appreciate many people feel about storm and SnT, and I'd probably agree about SnT at least), more like griefing somehow than the other lock pieces/interaction do.

    I do agree with you, though, that no deck in Legacy is really "fair;" obviously to compete you have to be doing busted stuff in this format. I also agree none of these cards are truly bannable. However, I also empathize with the notion that some cards are just patently miserable, whether or not that makes them bannable is another question. I think getting rid of chalice wouldn't necessarily make Legacy "better," but I'm certain it would be 100% more enjoyable.

  9. #17769
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    If your reasoning for seeking a banning is, at the heart of it, 'I don't like what this card does' then I have to say that nedleeds has you all beat on making himself heard on such matters. Because that's not a banning offence. If your comment is 'It creates non games' I will also state that's not a banning offence. I can't even tell you how many games I lost against RUG playing Goblins where I ate a Wasteland, a Stifle or a Force and then died to a Mongoose.
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Feel bad is not an argument. A card that randomly wins on turn one sucks, sure, but it's nothing we have not had to deal with before. In fact Chalice is not even the best at what it does, 3Ball is. I promise you I have won more games that I landed a turn one 3Ball than a turn one Chalice.
    I don't care about 'feel bad'. Non-games are a waste of time. They are not actually playing Magic. The two players did nothing of consequence. They sat there, their decks played some cards, and then one player won. It's essentially a terrible performance art piece.

    You seem to be the type of dude that I mentioned before - drives to a tournament just to turn 1 Trinisphere people and then get some nachos. Which is fine. For whatever reason, that's what makes you happy in life. It is maybe a little ironic that you strive so hard to fight trolls on the internet and then go around doing to that to strangers, but whatever. We're not here to judge you. Keep on 3-balling. But there are people who want something else out of Magic, and their opinions on what cards should be banned might not overlap with yours.

  11. #17771
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    No man, these days Crucible, Smokestack, Bridge and Sphere is where it's at, no 3Ball needed. Good God that deck is fun. I love watching players with no mana, no options and no chance squirm. Flawless victory's are best victory's.

    In other news, I have Drop of Honey now, so I can Flawless more often in Lands too. What a fantastic format.
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  12. #17772
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    Non-games are a waste of time. They are not actually playing Magic. The two players did nothing of consequence. They sat there, their decks played some cards, and then one player won. It's essentially a terrible performance art piece.
    Sounds like DnT


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  13. #17773
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    It's extremely rude (and unbecoming of a mod - you should know better) to bring up the Pirate Stompy thread here.
    How dare you Dice?!


  14. #17774
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Rude.

    In the B+R thread.

    WTF is the world coming to?



    I'm pretty sure non-games and turn 1 blowouts are both features, not bugs.
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  15. #17775
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Things I find odd:
    * "Don't bring your opinion in here, this is fact based !1!!"
    -> This is literally an opinion thread. It's a thread specifically for people to vent their frustrations with obnoxious cards and propose that they either should be banned, or are ban worthy. Get over it?

    * Why didn't you complain about GP before?!?
    -> While it's true there will always be an obnoxious card; we can't ban brainstorm because it'll never happen. So what can we do? We can whittle Blue shells down by attacking similar (but worse) cards that anchor certain decks in their position. GP was not the biggest offender or obvious target before, because Miracles was shitting on literally everyone. It's not even that GP is oppressive, it's that GP is currently a homogenizing force. People like myself that dislike both the homogenization of the format and the omni-present all-blue all-the-time would like to continue to nibble at the blue side of things; if only because the true homogenizing force is Sacred.

    * GP == Bauble
    -> No it doesn't, or people would play baubles. Baubles are delayed draw and have proven to be mediocre in real formats due to that problem. This is despite being actually 0 mana, pumping goyf, etc.. GP also provides more information; which is noteworthy.

    * Discard would've lost (whoever) the game too!
    -> No. Discard gives you information at the cost of a card and is also an actual resource for you to expend, both in terms of mana and in terms of card count. Further, discard can't be cast for zero-mana (other than therapy flashback) from the grave, which does in fact reduce storm lines by a factor. The person who got double probed would've (in the case of double discard) probably not been killed [that turn] because the storm player wouldn't have 2-storm sitting in his grave, and would be down 2 more cards in hand; meaning probably 3 less storm count in total. I do believe that the guy would've lost anyway though as his garbage hand would've been interacted with multiple times, leaving him with an even more garbage hand.

    * You just Hate Delver and Storm
    -> No. I've already stated that Delver would live on in other delver decks. We get it, Grixis Delver is good. Just like the other times the torch was passed, maybe it's time for BUG or RUG or Patriot to take the hill again. I don't mind Delver. I also don't mind Storm or most other (non-T1) combo decks. Even Chalice/Moon is fine, because I get why they are necessary.

    * To the guy saying "Why would Dredge players want to nerf themselves"
    -> I made a joke. It was clearly a joke. Please gain a sense of humor. That said, no one likes dredge, no one has ever liked dredge; dredge is like a Blonde guy with an afro and bellbottoms. No one likes it. It exists, we can accept it existing; but no one wants to encourage Blonde-afros and bellbottoms. <- If you take that seriously, please reread the paragraph.
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by tescrin View Post
    Things I find odd:
    * "Don't bring your opinion in here, this is fact based !1!!"
    -> This is literally an opinion thread. It's a thread specifically for people to vent their frustrations with obnoxious cards and propose that they either should be banned, or are ban worthy. Get over it?

    * Why didn't you complain about GP before?!?
    -> While it's true there will always be an obnoxious card; we can't ban brainstorm because it'll never happen. So what can we do? We can whittle Blue shells down by attacking similar (but worse) cards that anchor certain decks in their position. GP was not the biggest offender or obvious target before, because Miracles was shitting on literally everyone. It's not even that GP is oppressive, it's that GP is currently a homogenizing force. People like myself that dislike both the homogenization of the format and the omni-present all-blue all-the-time would like to continue to nibble at the blue side of things; if only because the true homogenizing force is Sacred.

    * GP == Bauble
    -> No it doesn't, or people would play baubles. Baubles are delayed draw and have proven to be mediocre in real formats due to that problem. This is despite being actually 0 mana, pumping goyf, etc.. GP also provides more information; which is noteworthy.

    * Discard would've lost (whoever) the game too!
    -> No. Discard gives you information at the cost of a card and is also an actual resource for you to expend, both in terms of mana and in terms of card count. Further, discard can't be cast for zero-mana (other than therapy flashback) from the grave, which does in fact reduce storm lines by a factor. The person who got double probed would've (in the case of double discard) probably not been killed [that turn] because the storm player wouldn't have 2-storm sitting in his grave, and would be down 2 more cards in hand; meaning probably 3 less storm count in total. I do believe that the guy would've lost anyway though as his garbage hand would've been interacted with multiple times, leaving him with an even more garbage hand.

    * You just Hate Delver and Storm
    -> No. I've already stated that Delver would live on in other delver decks. We get it, Grixis Delver is good. Just like the other times the torch was passed, maybe it's time for BUG or RUG or Patriot to take the hill again. I don't mind Delver. I also don't mind Storm or most other (non-T1) combo decks. Even Chalice/Moon is fine, because I get why they are necessary.

    * To the guy saying "Why would Dredge players want to nerf themselves"
    -> I made a joke. It was clearly a joke. Please gain a sense of humor. That said, no one likes dredge, no one has ever liked dredge; dredge is like a Blonde guy with an afro and bellbottoms. No one likes it. It exists, we can accept it existing; but no one wants to encourage Blonde-afros and bellbottoms. <- If you take that seriously, please reread the paragraph.
    So... tl;dr: Probe has to go because something blue needs to be banned?

  17. #17777
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hrothgar View Post
    This is not a % of meta question, this is a "sense of the card" and "good games" question, but maybe this is not clear and I try to explain, but this is impossible to understand for some player frustrated by blue, who find, in Chalice, a simply brainless way to beat blue decks.
    Probe and Chalice are, in their substances, two stupid card who can give, to the player who play them, an incredible advantage in asymmetrical way.

    All the decks who play probe, play Therapy in 75 (monored storm no obv) and, with Pyromancer (in Grixis Delver, ee), this make a too strong interaction who can destroy the opponent hand with no use of brain, just only reading the card in the opponent hand.
    The 70% of times, there ere are no difference in player's skill for this Pyromancer+Probe+Therapy loop, and this is not a good Magic.

    Deck with Chalice of the Void, too many times, have an incredible advantage just playing a solland and chalice in turn 1, transforming the opponent's hand in a mulligan at 2/3 with an asymmetrical advantage for the chalice player.
    This is no good because of the opponent, substantially, do not play a mtg game many times.
    Again, the chalice player gets an advantage in a passively way (with no use of brain), and this is not a good Magic.

    Banning this 2 cards, there are no risk of an ANT explosion, because ANT losing the Probe (+ Therapy), and this means who storm player have other trouble (ee can't sack LED in response to a Probe and other tricks).

    Oh, just noticed who Gitaxian Probe is a blue card
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  18. #17778
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew View Post
    So... tl;dr: Probe has to go because something blue needs to be banned?
    Sounds like it.

    Lets remove Probe+Therapy from the format so it simply gets replaced by Throughtseize. #Not #AllSolved
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    #MakeTherapyHardAgain
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    At the very least, half of the recent posters would be hard again.
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    I still have a strong suspicion that if 'Thalia, Heretic Cathar' had been named 'Frank, Heretic Cathar', people would be a lot more skeptical of it.
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