[Discussion] Cards You're Tired Of Playing With

[Sims]

What do you think the banned list should look like?

The French list isn't perfect, but at least it's an attempt at a reasonable banned list. I'd much rather it be the official list than the joke we currently have.

Most of what is on the current "joke" of a banned list is still banned in French 1v1. The French list also has some inexplicable cards on it as well: Bitterblossom? Really? The Edric players not like getting blown out if they can't counter that turn 2 blossom? Serra Ascendant? In 1v1 sure it's a turn 1 blowout, but you sound like you play multiplayer, I see no reason that this guy should be banned. Tabernacle? A land that does nothing but hinder creature strategies and, ironically, Edric.... Hey, don't most of the french rules council play Edric?

When you ban Bitterblossom because it blows out your tier S deck and leave Survival of the Goddamned Fittest legal? Oath of Druid? Hermit Druid? Your banned list is suspect at best.

Oh, and for the record, Biorhythm with counter backup is a game ender since it very potentially kills or at least magister sphinxes almost everyone at the table. That's a pretty friggen swingy card.

[socialite]

most of what is on the current "joke" of a banned list is still banned in french 1v1. The french list also has some inexplicable cards on it as well: Bitterblossom? Really? The edric players not like getting blown out if they can't counter that turn 2 blossom? Serra ascendant? In 1v1 sure it's a turn 1 blowout, but you sound like you play multiplayer, i see no reason that this guy should be banned. Tabernacle? A land that does nothing but hinder creature strategies and, ironically, edric.... Hey, don't most of the french rules council play edric?

When you ban bitterblossom because it blows out your tier s deck and leave survival of the goddamned fittest legal? Oath of druid? Hermit druid? Your banned list is suspect at best.

Oh, and for the record, biorhythm with counter backup is a game ender since it very potentially kills or at least magister sphinxes almost everyone at the table. That's a pretty friggen swingy card.

holy moly give this guy a prize!

Sims please have my babies.

[Amon Amarth]

The RC knows the format is degenerate but the banned list is only to try and keep the super unfun cards away from peoples playgroups, not to keep the format "fair". Obviously there are some suspect cards (Black Dragon anyone?) but the point of the format is that the players are supposed to keep those things in check with their playgroup. EDH was envisioned as a 4 player casual format. You are supposed to keep the degeneracy out of your playgroup, social contract and all that jazz.

[Ace/Homebrew]

You are supposed to keep the degeneracy out of your playgroup, social contract and all that jazz.

This is actually real easy... If your playgroup is tried of losing to manarock.deck then you say to that player, "I don't want to play against your manarock deck, what else do you have?" They either pull out something else or you exclude them from that game. You can be as mean or nice as you want while you say it. Eventually they alter their deck or they stop showing up. It's pretty win/win.

[anecdote] A 7 or 8 player casual game had been going on for a while and the overall consensus was that the game was fun and no one was in a hurry for it to end, except for one player who decided to combo out and kill everyone simultaneously. The group decided that winner's "prize" was to leave the table while everyone else finished the game they were enjoying. He sat by himself for 2 hours.[/anecdote]

Kuma, I admire the statistical approach you're taking in analyzing the effect of certain cards on the format; 3 player group or not. My only problem is that you 3 make it a point to leave politics and grudges out of it... Multiplayer EDH is all about politics and grudges. Being able to talk a player into doing what you want can be as important to winning a game as landing that turn 1 Sol Ring.

[Aggro_zombies]

The RC knows the format is degenerate but the banned list is only to try and keep the super unfun cards away from peoples playgroups, not to keep the format "fair". Obviously there are some suspect cards (Black Dragon anyone?) but the point of the format is that the players are supposed to keep those things in check with their playgroup. EDH was envisioned as a 4 player casual format. You are supposed to keep the degeneracy out of your playgroup, social contract and all that jazz.

Koko is actually kind of pushing it. His "normal" use (i.e., dying to anything that doesn't exile him) will usually net you 15 life, which can be pretty steep. Combine that with any kind of recursion (I wonder what color is good at recurring creatures?) and it stacks up. Obviously, with Recurring Nightmare on the list he's not as bad, and he's certainly harder to turn into an insta-win than, say, Mikaeus and Triskelion or Kiki-Mite, but he's kind of pushing it on his own.

With Prime Time being somehow completely kosher, I think Kokoshu can come off, but YYMV.

[Malchar]

Oh, and for the record, Biorhythm with counter backup is a game ender since it very potentially kills or at least magister sphinxes almost everyone at the table. That's a pretty friggen swingy card.

As it should be. Everyone else on the table is going to try and counter it. Plus, it's a sorcery that costs 8, so how are you going to have enough mana left to protect it from everyone?

Unless you have 40 some tokens out, it's just a big flame rift. It doesn't improve your board position at all, and it's frequently a dead card. If they destroy your creatures in response, you die.

A good starting ban list would be the legacy ban list. I have a hard time believing that cards like biorhythm and upheaval suddenly become so broken that they need to be banned, especially considering that they aren't even used competitively in any formats.

If you get to 8 mana, you deserve to attempt to cast a biorhythm, but getting sol ring or oath of druids at the very beginning of the game is completely broken.

[kombatkiwi]

As it should be. Everyone else on the table is going to try and counter it. Plus, it's a sorcery that costs 8, so how are you going to have enough mana left to protect it from everyone?

Unless you have 40 some tokens out, it's just a big flame rift. It doesn't improve your board position at all, and it's frequently a dead card. If they destroy your creatures in response, you die.

A good starting ban list would be the legacy ban list. I have a hard time believing that cards like biorhythm and upheaval suddenly become so broken that they need to be banned, especially considering that they aren't even used competitively in any formats.

If you get to 8 mana, you deserve to attempt to cast a biorhythm, but getting sol ring or oath of druids at the very beginning of the game is completely broken.

So much this
theres a bunch of huge-mana cards that just win on the spot;
Tooth and nail
Time stretch
Genesis wave usually

Just because you need other cards in your deck (oh god, what a strategical nightmare) for these ones to win you the game (even biorythm you need like a wrath and/or a dude) sonehow makes them more balanced as cards?

The rest of sims post (about the french banlist) i agree with and it seems as though we're just going to have to accept we're going to have swingy games playing at a high level.

Posting from my phone so excuse capitalisation/ounctuation/typos

[Amon Amarth]

Koko is actually kind of pushing it. His "normal" use (i.e., dying to anything that doesn't exile him) will usually net you 15 life, which can be pretty steep. Combine that with any kind of recursion (I wonder what color is good at recurring creatures?) and it stacks up. Obviously, with Recurring Nightmare on the list he's not as bad, and he's certainly harder to turn into an insta-win than, say, Mikaeus and Triskelion or Kiki-Mite, but he's kind of pushing it on his own.

With Prime Time being somehow completely kosher, I think Kokoshu can come off, but YYMV.

Life gain is nice but unimpressive. There are too many ways to get past someone with a large life total. If your playgroup has advanced somewhere beyond Spiritmonger and Earthquake you should be fine. With Recurring Nightmare on the list it's going to take significantly more work to abuse him. He's good but the threshold for banning something in this format solely on power level is pretty high i.e. Gifts, Tinker, etc.

On a slightly more on topic note, I really don't like playing with SDT anymore. I've taken it out of most of my decks that can't abuse him e.g. loaded with shuffle effects. It's a boring card and having an upkeep of 1 to see a new card every turn is the definition of unexciting. Great when you're loaded with tutors, meh without. Dito for decks that can actually draw lots of cards like Edric.

[Sims]

As it should be. Everyone else on the table is going to try and counter it. Plus, it's a sorcery that costs 8, so how are you going to have enough mana left to protect it from everyone?

Unless you have 40 some tokens out, it's just a big flame rift. It doesn't improve your board position at all, and it's frequently a dead card. If they destroy your creatures in response, you die.

A good starting ban list would be the legacy ban list. I have a hard time believing that cards like biorhythm and upheaval suddenly become so broken that they need to be banned, especially considering that they aren't even used competitively in any formats.

If you get to 8 mana, you deserve to attempt to cast a biorhythm, but getting sol ring or oath of druids at the very beginning of the game is completely broken.

While I do appreciate this fact, I can easily see both sides of this issue.

At 8+ mana, most cards you are casting should win the game. Insurrection, Time Stretch, Tooth and Nail are already in the format and I agree that those typically win on the spot. Counters mean little because you can run them yourself and also all decks have access, should they choose, to Bosejiu.

I think the issue that I have with Biorhythm, and likely this is the RC's stance on the card, is that it's very easy to set up a win with it. Say you cast a Bosejiu'd Insurrection... You still have to make it through a combat step and kill as many players as possible while making it through fog effects, flash blockers, homeward path, etc. With Time Stretch you get 2 extra turns but you have to actively set up some way of winning the game or a loop to recurr the Time Stretch, and often times those recursion loops will be preventable. Tooth and Nail requires a creature combo to win (Mikaeus/trike, Kiki/Mite) and are open to disruption on the table, etc..

With Biorhtyhm, all it requires is having 1 creature on the board post-wrath to win the game instantly. If someone wraths and you're able to cast just one hexproof creature before casting Biorhythm it's game. If you have a Sprinjack Pasture you can win the game by making a token before casting the spell. At the very least it's unfun to suddenly have the game reduced to everyone being at 1-5 life, leaving the game up to whomever can cast the first Breath of Malfegor.... Seems too abusable to me, personally. But hell, you can make such arguments for pretty much everything on the banned list.