Commander 2014 thread

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I agree that adding non-legendary creatures to the command zone is a shit idea to start with. What's next, a Legendary Land that functions as your commander? Maybe an Epic Sorcery?

[Lord Seth]

Wizards proceeds to undermine the game's Basics as if Miracles, Delver and TNN/Judgement weren't enough.

Er, how do Miracles or Council's Judgment violate any basics of the game? Delver and True-Name Nemesis I know people complain about being allegedly out of color, but I can't see how Miracles or Judgment in any way undermine the basics of the game any more than any keyword ability does.

And I don't see how the Teferi is an undermining of the basics of the game either. It's an exception to the rules for a very particular format; hardly a basic of the game itself.

Personally I have no opinion on the Teferi as I don't play Commander and don't know the format enough to render any kind of opinion, but I don't get this "undermine the game's basics" claim.

[menace13]

how Miracles or Judgment in any way undermine the basics of the game any more than any keyword ability does.

Delver is like Nacatl, except better in every way. Keyword Awesome aside. Evasion. Cannot lose its flipped stats like Nacatl can/ Which is much more synergistic in its tempo shells than the cat is in aggro shells.

TNN is just derp. Maro's response to how to deal with it in 1v1 games was "other players" If you dont feel trolled, then youre too dumb to get it. SorryImNotSorry

Miracles are to spells what Show and Tell is to permanents. One mana spells that otherwise cost 3WW. The basic rules violated here are the effect to mana cost ratio, clearly.

Judgment is as sloppy a design as it gets. I have to guess what my opponent is going to name so I don't get 2 for 1'd? What? I hope who ever designed this suffers a thousand paper cuts every time he goes to pick up a magic card.

I'm also going to preemptively respond for many of you, saving many people the time. "So, what? Lots of spells already do that bro! Play Standard with the kids, dude"

There, done.

YW

[Megadeus]

Do you like, understand how councils judgement works?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Like the Brothers Yamazaki?

You can play two Brothers in one commander deck?

I don't see the big deal. Teferi doesn't even seem that good as a commander and I'm sure overall it won't affect things that greatly. Magic players really do make a big deal out of nothing. I honestly have always thought walkers should be legal as commanders.

You seem to miss the points someof us made.
I dislike Teferi (and PWs in general), becasue they're glued into the game, there's a lot of rules garbage around them, and they moved the game's flavour from "While we fought, the il surrendered" to "My boobs, I got them" of Liliana the Liliana of Boobs.

I think the next point worth examining is cards created for a casual format being allowed in competitive formats with no testing considerations made whatsoever. This avoids the slippery slope fallacy but addresses what you are getting at. The lack of Eternal format testing in R&D is hurting those formats. This extends beyond EDH products as well, just look at Delver of Secrets

Yep. I loved the times when R&D didn't invent one Balduvian Shaman and Ice Cauldron after another.

Yes this planeswalker breaks the basic rules of the commander format.
And so what?
Every card does it in some way...

There's a difference between how the card does thing. On the very basic, each card breaks the rules. Yet there's a difference between Giant Spider and Ice Cauldron 2.0.

TNN is just derp. Maro's response to how to deal with it in 1v1 games was "other players"

Link, please, I need to read some more of that idiot...

[menace13]

Do you like, understand how councils judgement works?

No. I thought it works with some convoluted naming process. Reading the card doesnt seem intuitive to me. I read it as vote for a card caster doesnt control. So if I have 2 permanents out and you cast Judgment. And I vote for a card that you didnt vote for I lose both? Or is my voting done after I hear your vote?

Link, please, I need to read some more of that idiot...

Sorry, he has like 9k tweets. I cant dig through that. It's something I remember from one of the TNN threads here. WHich would also be like searching through 9k tweets.

[Meekrab]

Link, please, I need to read some more of that idiot...

The actual quote is less damning and basically "it was designed for Commander formats."

tehpoker said: Why did you make True-Name Nemesis? For people like me who are legitimately interested in the Grixis deck to actually play Commander with it, the deck is impossible to get.

The card was made to be a cool multiplayer card. Design doesn’t even set power level so we had no idea that it was going to end up playable in Legacy.

I mean... if it was a 2/1 for UU or something it wouldn't really even be on the radar. "Development" (playtesting) just totally punted the scale on which it operates.

[TheArchitect]

Do you like, understand how councils judgement works?

Shhhh don't tell let him know he's doing it wrong. People keep giving me free 2-for-1's because they don't RTFC.

[menace13]

Shhhh don't tell let him know he's doing it wrong. People keep giving me free 2-for-1's because they don't RTFC.

Which is exactly why the card is sloppily designed. RTFC is a bit different from comprehending the fucking card. If it wasn't so retarded in the first place it might be easier to discern. The entire voting thing is dumb. It's not really a vote in 1v1. it's agreeing with your opponent's choice. It also targets untargetable cards. Seriously flawed.

[Sylphnir]

You can play two Brothers in one commander deck?

You can play an unlimited amount of Relentless Rats and/or Shadowborn Apostle though.

[Lord Seth]

Miracles are to spells what Show and Tell is to permanents. One mana spells that otherwise cost 3WW. The basic rules violated here are the effect to mana cost ratio, clearly.

Cards that are cheaper to cast when you fulfill certain requirements are absolutely nothing new and have been part of the game for a long time. There is no basic being violated here.

The weird thing is, you note this as a possible counter-argument... but then offer no response whatsoever to the counterargument.

The actual quote is less damning and basically "it was designed for Commander formats."



I mean... if it was a 2/1 for UU or something it wouldn't really even be on the radar. "Development" (playtesting) just totally punted the scale on which it operates.

Someone in the comments there had a very good point: If True-Name Nemesis was meant to be a cool multiplayer card (as was stated), why does it get weaker in multiplayer?

For whatever it's worth, Mark Rosewater did say he didn't like the uninteractive nature of True-Name Nemesis. Of course, he waited like half a year after its release date to say that, so at that point maybe he was just trying not to fan the flames.

[menace13]

Cards that are cheaper to cast when you fulfill certain requirements are absolutely nothing new and have been part of the game for a long time. There is no basic being violated here.

The weird thing is, you note this as a possible counter-argument... but then offer no response whatsoever to the counterargument.

Most of those cards are flimsy, and even when the requirement is fulfilled aren't near the level of Terminus. FoW or Daze are the only ones that come to mind. Misstep and Gush are banned. Or Madness mechanic? I'm not sure you're making any counter argument that isn't skirting around the edges.

[Lemnear]

Do you like, understand how councils judgement works?

Tbh, right after it's intoduction in MTGO you had to choose a permanent on the field without knowing for which your opponent voted. It was a guaranteed 1-for-2 in the Cj casters favor.

@ Walkers as Commanders
The point made with the Brothers Y., Relentless Rats or the Apostle is clear. Those cards break basic rules of the game (Legend Rule, 4-of-the-same-cards-max, etc.) for the matter of being cool, but in the case of the Commander rules, which are already sketchy, WotC added another Layer of rulings and exceptions just for 5 cards with the next Commander product which is plain hilarious. Why not allow Walkers in general to make a point for the whole changes? Because of Jace & Liliana ruling over the 100 card stacks in that case?

Alternate mana costs are a core principle of the game and their reduced costs are tied to the alternate cost conditions and don't violate the game rules therefore. It's not that WotC had to rewrite the game rules just because of FoW. Fact is, that the one-liner on teferi is not enough to make him work within the games rules like FoW, Terminus, Phyrexian mana, Relentless Rats would. For teferi and friends they will likely need to flip over existing Commander rules like Commander damage, added casting costs and particular wording ... just for 5 cards

[NeZ]

The actual quote is less damning and basically "it was designed for Commander formats."

Which is a joke itself, because EDH clearly proved him wrong. I've yet to see a single TNN in a multiplayer EDH (the way EDH is meant to be played, f the french), because it's just a stupid 3/1 blocker with protection against one opponent. The fact that it dies to literally every sweeper makes TNN quite unplayable in EDH. Okay, maybe except in some tribal merfolk deck... but even there exist better options, I'm sure.

I mean... if it was a 2/1 for UU or something it wouldn't really even be on the radar. "Development" (playtesting) just totally punted the scale on which it operates.

TNN shouldn't exist. It's simply bad design. It's "for Commander", but it's mostly played in Legacy.

@ Walkers as Commanders
The point made with the Brothers Y., Relentless Rats or the Apostle is clear. Those cards break basic rules of the game (Legend Rule, 4-of-the-same-cards-max, etc.) for the matter of being cool, but in the case of the Commander rules, which are already sketchy, WotC added another Layer of rulings and exceptions just for 5 cards with the next Commander product which is plain hilarious. Why not allow Walkers in general to make a point for the whole changes? Because of Jace & Liliana ruling over the 100 card stacks in that case?

EDH has 99 card stacks, but other than that, you know why it's called EDH and there is the 21 commander damage rule? Elder Dragons. Highlander deck rules. 3 x 7 = 21. Three attacks and you're dead. But allowing other legends helped immensely pushing the format toward it's popularity it has today.

Having some Jace or Liliana as your commander shifts away the focus of EDH from some kind of mighty general ruling over your deck to some whiney sparkly pal / gal waving his hand in an odd manner. Yes, I'm overacting, but I kind of hate the stuff that could follow by softening the basic rules of EDH (more below).

Alternate mana costs are a core principle of the game and their reduced costs are tied to the alternate cost conditions and don't violate the game rules therefore. It's not that WotC had to rewrite the game rules just because of FoW. Fact is, that the one-liner on teferi is not enough to make him work within the games rules like FoW, Terminus, Phyrexian mana, Relentless Rats would. For teferi and friends they will likely need to flip over existing Commander rules like Commander damage, added casting costs and particular wording ... just for 5 cards

You're right. They won't change these rules. They simply can't. EDH is 99+1 cards, 21 damage. Or is it?

Because now all these stupid exceptions like Opal Palace, Derevi, Oloro, Prossh, etc. exist, simply to mess with the format or help to sell more cards. Now these planeswalker-commanders, which create exceptions to an exception (Opal Palace!).

The point MaRo or some other jerk comes up with a card changing the 21 rule, the 99 rule or the highlander rule, I'll think about quitting EDH altogether.

And to help understand my point... I only play EDH and EDH only. I now own 12 decks with no color-combination twice. Magic is equal to EDH for me. My whole collection is based on EDH. Modern is intriguing too (because of the player-base here in Munich), but I probably stick with EDH only.

I'm am not angry that there will be now 5 planeswalkers that can be your commander. In fact I'm looking forward to the green one (I still have no mono-green deck because green ramp is a boring concept in EDH imho) but I hate WotC's constant messing around with the basic design of a format they didn't even design in the first place.

[menace13]

Link, please, I need to read some more of that idiot...

Actually dug up the quotes.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post767626

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post767955

While not designed for eternal formats, development pushed it out as one. They like to do so with commander sets.
http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/mag...g/daily/ld/252

[lyracian]

Wow; three pages on one card! I liked last years commands because they made a point of having a command zone, gaining life or milling X cards where X is the total casting cost. As a concept these commanders do not seem to add anything worthwhile to the game so I think they are wasted design space. Without some complex interaction they do not let you kill your opponent with commander damage. Product setting means they are not included in the Modern format and I cannot see any of them being good enough for Legacy due to being designed as commanders. Overall I just do not care about them being shoe-horned into the command zone.

Most of those cards are flimsy, and even when the requirement is fulfilled aren't near the level of Terminus. FoW or Daze are the only ones that come to mind. Misstep and Gush are banned. Or Madness mechanic? I'm not sure you're making any counter argument that isn't skirting around the edges.

Is it the concept of alternative costs or the effect of Terminus that you dislike? or just the ease it can be cast with Top? A lot of my friends complained about FoW when it came out because they thought it was too powerful. After Force and friends we had great cards like "Natural Order" and "Fireblast" in Visions. Personally I see Miracles as just another iteration of alternative costs.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Without some complex interaction they do not let you kill your opponent with commander damage.

How exactly does one kill an opponent with Commander damage using Norin the Wary?
Or Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant?

The inability to deal commander damage certainly isn't new or innovative, even though people keep saying it is.


They're releasing 5 relatively harmless (based on the one we've seen so far) planeswalkers with an unusual line of text that opens up design space. If it works, we'll see more. If not, there will be a total of 5 exceptions to the rule. Big. Whoop.

[NeZ]

How exactly does one kill an opponent with Commander damage using Norin the Wary?
Or Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant?

Rune-Tail? How about attacking with him 11 times, or pumping him? Bad example, sorry.

Norin? You'll need a blue player to help so he can attack, but: Stifle. Trickbind. Voidslime.

EDIT: Dang it! Of course Stifle triggers Norin too! And I even have a Norin quote in my sig. I'm sorry.

Same goes for Szadek, Lord of Secrets. Stifle-ing him could be a real blowout.

The inability to deal commander damage certainly isn't new or innovative, even though people keep saying it is.

Haakon, Stromgald Scourge is the only legend where a 21-kill is even theoretically impossible, because there's no way to actually cast him. And that's one single card.

But I believe we're going to see an Entomb for your commander zone soon enough...

They're releasing 5 relatively harmless (based on the one we've seen so far) planeswalkers with an unusual line of text that opens up design space. If it works, we'll see more. If not, there will be a total of 5 exceptions to the rule. Big. Whoop.

Do you even play EDH? There's a lot design space left within EDH. But they better not touch the rules anymore.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Rune-Tail? How about attacking with him 11 times, or pumping him? Bad example, sorry.

Norin? You'll need a blue player to help so he can attack, but: Stifle. Trickbind. Voidslime.
Same goes for Szadek, Lord of Secrets. Stifle-ing him could be a real blowout.


Haakon, Stromgald Scourge is the only legend where a 21-kill is even theoretically impossible, because there's no way to actually cast him. And that's one single card.

But I believe we're going to see an Entomb for your commander zone soon enough...


Do you even play EDH? There's a lot design space left within EDH. But they better not touch the rules anymore.

It is a shame that post was serious because it is laughably stupid. Are you certain YOU've played EDH?

Edit: I suppose I should explain why that was ridiculous since it was a serious post...
Lets say Norin is in a pod with a blue opponent. And lets say that the blue opponent WANTS to let Norin connect for lols. And lets say that the blue opponent has access to 11 Stifle effects with Isochron Scepter...

Norin attacks. An exile trigger goes on the stack.
Blue opponent Stifle's the trigger!
By casting Stifle, another exile trigger goes on the stack.
Then Norin runs away...

Have you ever seen someone use a Rune-Tail deck? Guess what happens on turn 3 EVERY GAME? Can you guess? I bet you can!

My point was not that obscure corner cases exist that allow for anything. My point was that EDH decks have been built to great success with generals who are not intended to deal 21 damage.

[Matsaya]

norin + stifle : how hilarious !