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Thread: 8-Rack

  1. #1

    8-Rack

    Wanted to create a thread/primer for the deck commonly referred to as 8-rack. While not all versions run 8 rack effects anymore, the core of the deck's strategy remains the same: get your opponent hellbent as quickly as possible and let The Rack and/or Shrieking Affliction quickly close out the game. The addition of Urza's saga helps push up the power level of this deck by giving it an (essentially) uncounterable tutor for racks or grave hate while also providing an option for jamming up the board with some potentially large construct tokens.

    Some of the common cards used are listed below for people who may not be familiar with the deck, as well as a list I am currently using that is completely untested in the arena. I've only been able to playtest it but I would like some feedback on it.

    Creatures:
    Murderous Rider - Deals with creautres or planeswalkers at instant speed, can leave behind a body that recoups life loss and hides from discard until you are ready.
    Plague Engineer - Great against go wide X/1s, probably doesn't need much introduction here.
    Nether Spirit - When ran, usually ran as a 1 of and the only creature.
    Bloodghast - Great to add pressure, downside is they can't block.
    Rotting Regisaur - Fatty that works well in a hellbent environment, which this deck often finds itself.
    Dark Confidant - commonly ran in the sideboards for the decks that grind a little bit better or where card advantage is needed.
    Scourge of the Skyclaves - Newer card, not commonly seen, but can act like a 2 mana goyf, especially with thoughtsieze.
    Dauthi Voidwalker - Newer card, acts as gravehate with some shenanagins.
    Hex Parasite - Plays well with Urza's Saga and helps deal with opponents Chalice, which can prove to be a big problem for this deck.

    Discard - 1 mana:[/cards]
    Thoughtseize - Classic. Often a 4 of if IoK is not used.
    Inquisition of Kozilek - Also a classic, often a 4 of if Thoughtseize is not used.
    Raven's Crime - Very good card for this deck as it turns late game land draws into discard.
    Funeral Charm - flexible card that has seen some resurgence of late. Kills x/1, acts as 1 for 1 discard and can give a construct token swampwalk with an Urborg out to close out the game quickly.
    Duress - Older card, not seen much anymore due to better cards but it isn't a terrible choice. Hits artifacts, enchantments, and planeswalkers which are tough for this deck to deal with.

    Discard - 2 mana:
    Whispers of Emrakul - I've never seen anyone run this but I feel like its worth a test. Getting 1 or 2 cards at random can be strong. Given that half of our other discard is at the opponent's choice, it isn't any worse (except for being 2 mana) and often is better.
    Wrench Mind - 2 for 1 in modern (most of the time).
    Collective Brutality - Flexible answer to deal with x/2's and get instants/sorceries out of your opponent's hand. Occasionally the 2 life drain is useful. This card tends to be strong vs burn.
    Liliana's Triumph - Instant speed edict that occasionally acts as discard as well.
    Smallpox - Tempo swinger that can really cripple decks when played right.
    Mind Rake - Can be cast with overload to get around leyline of sanctity.

    Other discard:
    Delirium Skeins - used to get around the same leyline of sanctity.


    Removal - 1 mana:
    Fatal Push - Standard black one mana, instant speed removal. This deck doesn't usually run fetches so it can be awkward at times were it isn't able to be used.
    Funeral Charm - Gets all those pesky monkeys running around.
    Innocent Blood - Other standard black one mana edict.
    Bloodchief's thirst - Targeted removal for creatures and walkers. Can be a bit mana intensive.
    Dismember - often seen as a 1 of for quick removal of a large threat.

    Removal - 2 mana:
    Sudden Edict - uncounterable instant speed edict.
    Collective Brutality - see above, deals with x/2 creautres.
    Liliana's triumph - see above as well.
    Smallpox - see above.
    Damn - Sorcery Speed, unconditional removal.

    Other Removal:
    Baleful Mastery - Flexible on the tempo aspect, but good in that it exiles.
    Murderous rider - 3 mana which can be steep for this deck but hits everything.
    Bontu's Last Reckoning - 3 mana Board wipe at hte expense of your next turn.
    Damnation - Board wipe with no conditions.


    Urza's saga targets:
    The Rack - the namesake of the deck. You will probably always want 4 of these with Urza's saga.
    Nihil Spellbomb - 1 of for Grave hate. also cantrips.
    Pithing Needle - Great for walkers or other problem permanents.
    Expedition map - kind of an odd choice but it allows you to fetch up your next saga.
    Hex Parasite - see above.

    Planeswalkers:
    Liliana of the veil - Needs no introduction. Discards, edicts, and should probably be a 4 of.
    Liliana, waker of the dead - Newer card, acts as LOTV #5, but the 4 mana is a big ask for this deck.
    Ashiok, nightmare weaver - Grave and fetch hate, alternate win con.
    Davriel, rogue shadowmage - Rack options 9-12, or a budget LoTV.

    Rack effects:
    The Rack - see above.
    Shrieking Affliction - Enchantment version of the rack that hits harder when opponents are at 1 card in hand.

    Other/Sideboard cards:
    Leyline of the void - grave hate
    Surgical Extraction - grave hate
    Cling to Dust - grave hate, with an added bonus of late game card draw or life gain.
    Tormod's Crypt -can also be tutored with saga.
    Ensnaring Bridge - given as most games get both players hellbent, this stalls out and lets the racks deal their passive damage.

    Mana base:
    Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth - helps utility lands tap for black.
    Mishra's Factory - Standard man land that can pump construct tokens.
    Urza's Saga - New card, very powerful. Spams the board and tutors up racks and puts them directly into play (or needle, or spellbomb)
    Bojuka Bog - simple grave hate.
    Castle Locthwain - Card draw.
    Hive of the eye tyrant - New man land with a little bit of late game grave hate for when that is an issue.
    Silent Clearing - Most decks are mono black but still include these for some late game draw if needed.
    Nurturing Peatland - see above.

    If there are others I am missing, please let me know and I'll add them to the list.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Look at the bright side, if Legacy becomes like Vintage all of us old dudes can get together, drink whiskey, and smoke cigars while we play the gentleman's format. Like an MtG speak-easy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    And the Reserved List causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their portfolios: and that no man might buy or sell cards or Chinese rip offs, save he made a post about the Reserved List or the number of its Threads: 666.

  2. #2

    Re: 8-Rack

    Here is my current build. I'm looking for some advice on the mana base and the removal package:

    26 Lands:
    15 Swamp
    1 Bojuka Bog
    2 Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
    3 Mishra's Factory
    4 Urza's Saga
    1 Castle Locthwain

    6 Artifacts
    4 The Rack
    1 Nihil Spellbomb
    1 Pithing Needle

    3 Enchantments
    3 Shrieking Affliction

    5 Planeswalkers
    4 Liliana of the Veil
    1 Liliana, Waker of the dead

    20 Spells
    4 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 funeral Charm
    3 Liliana's Triumph
    3 Raven's Crime
    2 Collective Brutality
    1 Fatal Push
    1 Baleful Mastery
    1 Bloodchief's Thirts
    1 Whispers of Emrakul

    The land count is higher than most builds that have done well (usually running 20 lands + 4 sagas), but it felt in testing that I am getting stuck on 2 mana, often with my second land being said saga which is just painful. So I added a few and upped the raven's crime to ensure any extra lands are still live discard. This deck is also missing smallpox which, while not always guaranteed to see play, can be devastating. Since I don't run any creatures in this build it will be even at best on CA but should be strong for tempo (outside of construct tokens of course). Likely the card to remove in that instance is CoBru, as they ultimately do the same thing, one just a little more consistently and with the added bonus of bombing a land. May also pull the 4 mana Liliana as the land loss makes that more difficult to achieve. It is nice to have her act as an additional rack effect as well too.

    All feedback welcome to those who have experience with the deck, with modern, with playing against this deck, or even none of it at all. I'm going to try to get out to a weekly soon and let it fly and see how it does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Look at the bright side, if Legacy becomes like Vintage all of us old dudes can get together, drink whiskey, and smoke cigars while we play the gentleman's format. Like an MtG speak-easy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    And the Reserved List causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their portfolios: and that no man might buy or sell cards or Chinese rip offs, save he made a post about the Reserved List or the number of its Threads: 666.

  3. #3
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    Re: 8-Rack

    Isn't Ensnaring Bridge pretty important for this deck? I understand the new flashy cards like Saga are really good, but fundamentally Bridge will lock up games much more reliably. There are so many decks that can't beat a Bridge once you're hellbent. I think sideboarding Bridges would be quite good.

    I was hot on a Bg version of this deck for a little while, ironically playing Tarmogoyfs because I couldn't afford Bridges (I had the goyfs from an old legacy deck.)
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  4. #4

    Re: 8-Rack

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Isn't Ensnaring Bridge pretty important for this deck? I understand the new flashy cards like Saga are really good, but fundamentally Bridge will lock up games much more reliably. There are so many decks that can't beat a Bridge once you're hellbent. I think sideboarding Bridges would be quite good.

    I was hot on a Bg version of this deck for a little while, ironically playing Tarmogoyfs because I couldn't afford Bridges (I had the goyfs from an old legacy deck.)
    Good call. I was really just going through looking at some of the top recent performers here: https://mtgdecks.net/Modern/8-rack
    Some run bridge in the side, some go for sweepers (damnation/bontu), and a few do neither. Its kind of a non-bo with the construct tokens, but really it kind of gives you a backup plan for when/if they destroy the bridge. So it still works on the rack plan while doing that (and the constructs aren't taking up deck space anyway).

    5-0 list: https://mtgdecks.net/Modern/8-rack-d...baitor-1182364 4 sagas, no bridge or sweeper in main or side.
    T16 list: https://mtgdecks.net/Modern/8-rack-d...r-jung-1185470 2 sagas, 2 bridge in side and 1 sweeper in side.
    T16 list: https://mtgdecks.net/Modern/8-rack-d...r-jung-1188725 same list as above one.
    T16 list: https://mtgdecks.net/Modern/8-rack-d...oletti-1182165 0 sagas, 2 bridge main, 2 sweepers + 2 ratchet bomb in side.
    5-0 list: https://mtgdecks.net/Modern/8-rack-d...ythmic-1179780 4 sagas, 0 bridge, 2 sweepers in side.

    Then you have this spicy meatball:
    5-0 list: https://mtgdecks.net/Modern/8-rack-d...omjasz-1175100 0 sagas, 4 waste not (awesome), 2 sweepers in the side. Also no liliana's as it has a Lurrus companion.

    I wonder why no plague engineers made the cut on any of the above? I guess the meta doesn't warrant it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Look at the bright side, if Legacy becomes like Vintage all of us old dudes can get together, drink whiskey, and smoke cigars while we play the gentleman's format. Like an MtG speak-easy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    And the Reserved List causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their portfolios: and that no man might buy or sell cards or Chinese rip offs, save he made a post about the Reserved List or the number of its Threads: 666.

  5. #5

    Re: 8-Rack

    interesting list. what's the reasoning between no smallpox - deckbuilding choice, or you just don't got em? also curious about the exclusion of thoughtseize. also feel like you could probably use a few more pushes in the mainboard. thats about it off the top of my head, not super familiar with the modern meta right now.

    also 4 sagas seems like a bit much tbh, personally id cut it to 2-3 and throw in a couple more locthwains, but thats probably more of a preference thing

  6. #6
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    Re: 8-Rack

    Almost every deck plays to the board, hard, so I think Bridge and Fatal Push are very important. Plague Engineer is a very good card for this deck, I would want at least 2 in the 75. I would also opt for non combat win cons, simply to leverage bridge. Full sets of rack, affliction, and some number of the rack pw (davriel?) Darkblast seems really good as well.

    Are you interested in a color splash? That can really change the landscape, too.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  7. #7

    Re: 8-Rack

    No smallpox because I was having mana issues initially (possibly with 4 sagas - still testing the optimal number). But I think swapping them out for the cobru and putting those in the board might be the better move. I also added more non-saga lands since then so the issue may be moot. Gives me more removal paired with discard and can potentially set them back on the land count. The lack of fatal push was due to not having fetchlands and als I wasn't sure what the optimal removal package was, so I was kind of doing 1 ofs to figure out what fit better. Liliana's Triumph doesn't get optimally used as much as I would like, but I also don't have the greatest of playtest decks.

    Not opposed to a color splash.

    Also, some of the deckbuilding choices are just because I have no idea what the meta is, locally or nationally haha. IoK over thoughtsieze, for example, is because my only playtest deck thats close to modern is a hasty GR deck with burn. Against a more diverse field TS is probably the better choice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Look at the bright side, if Legacy becomes like Vintage all of us old dudes can get together, drink whiskey, and smoke cigars while we play the gentleman's format. Like an MtG speak-easy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    And the Reserved List causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their portfolios: and that no man might buy or sell cards or Chinese rip offs, save he made a post about the Reserved List or the number of its Threads: 666.

  8. #8

    Re: 8-Rack

    Some small sample data points.

    Took the above list and ran it 35 times against a GR aggro deck, without sideboards. Here are some of the stats:
    Win rate = 60% (21-14)
    Win rate when seeing 0 sagas = 11% (1-8)
    Win rate when seeing >0 sagas = 77% (20-6)
    Win rate making 1 or fewer constructs = 15% (2-11)
    Win rate making 2 or more constructs = 86% (19-3)
    Win rate on play = 53% (9-8)
    Win rate on draw = 67% (12-6)
    win rate when opp mulligans = 100% (7-0, mix of play/draw). When opp does NOT mulligan, win rate is 50% (14-14).

    Just thought I'd share, its one matchup and a small number of games, no sideboard, and with bias of playing both decks, but thought the numbers were interesting. Given that, I'm thinking 4 saga's is the right number, and 7 rack effects is too many (see them too often in starting hand). 4 the racks (proper) is probably right, maybe just 1 affliction. Bridge would have definitely added some wins to this particular matchup. Needle was useless.

    Co Bru is probably better in the sideboard for matchups where it shines (burn), otherwise it was just a meh card here. Smallpox would probably be a good swap.

    I was always happy to see raven's crime. And fatal push is probably good enough despite the lack of fetchlands (how prevalent is blood moon and/or ashiok? Urborg negates the latter but not the former) . Baleful mastery was corner case useful but I think its only going to be very very fringe.

    Anyway just wanted to share my thoughts. Will make some updates and continue testing and hopefully get some live matches in soon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Look at the bright side, if Legacy becomes like Vintage all of us old dudes can get together, drink whiskey, and smoke cigars while we play the gentleman's format. Like an MtG speak-easy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    And the Reserved List causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their portfolios: and that no man might buy or sell cards or Chinese rip offs, save he made a post about the Reserved List or the number of its Threads: 666.

  9. #9

    Re: 8-Rack

    Trying to win with Rack/Affliction and not playing Smallpox/Hymn seems crazy to me
    If the mana is so bad that you can't play a BB spell reliably then I just wouldn't bother with playing so many Urzas Saga / Factory
    Edit: oh it's modern, but the point still stands about smallpox

  10. #10
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    Re: 8-Rack

    I was going to recommend moving Brutality to the sideboard and cutting Baleful Mastery, but personal experience teaches much better than being told. I'm glad you ran the deck through some games and came to the same conclusion.

    I think Bojuka Bog is a wasted slot and you'd be better off with a 3rd Urborg. Dedicate a few slots in the sideboard to cantripping grave hate (Spellbomb perhaps) and call it a day.

    It feels like you're playing a Mono Black Control more so than 8 Rack... I mean, that's proven true just by you not including 8 Racks. I think Urza's Saga is pushing you into a tool-boxy MBC which wins with Construct beats.

    Personally I would build along the lines of these lists:
    https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=36907&iddeck=336257
    https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=36130&iddeck=330461

    The strongest opening I remember for the deck is Turn 1 Inquisition/Thoughtseize, followed by Turn 2 Smallpox.
    Just my opinion and food for thought!

  11. #11

    Re: 8-Rack

    To both of your points - I was going through my list and realized I had pretty much no 2 for 1s, which is its only source of CA for the most part since I don't have draw outside of castles. Being able to stick a walker (protected by bridge) is something that probably needs to happen, along with some stronger/less flexible discard (looking at funeral charm, specifically. Versatile, but should probably have thoughtseize in there if I'll have a bridge for protection).

    Some changes are being made, will post updates. The 9 walker list looks interesting for sure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Look at the bright side, if Legacy becomes like Vintage all of us old dudes can get together, drink whiskey, and smoke cigars while we play the gentleman's format. Like an MtG speak-easy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    And the Reserved List causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their portfolios: and that no man might buy or sell cards or Chinese rip offs, save he made a post about the Reserved List or the number of its Threads: 666.

  12. #12

    Re: 8-Rack

    Quote Originally Posted by ronco View Post
    To both of your points - I was going through my list and realized I had pretty much no 2 for 1s, which is its only source of CA for the most part since I don't have draw outside of castles. Being able to stick a walker (protected by bridge) is something that probably needs to happen, along with some stronger/less flexible discard (looking at funeral charm, specifically. Versatile, but should probably have thoughtseize in there if I'll have a bridge for protection).

    Some changes are being made, will post updates. The 9 walker list looks interesting for sure.
    Went to a weekly, took the following list (inspired by the first link in the above post):

    2 Dismember
    4 Fatal Push

    2 Raven's Crime
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Smallpox
    4 Wrench Mind

    4 Shrieking Affliction

    3 Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
    3 Liliana of the Veil
    3 Liliana, Waker of the Dead

    4 The Rack

    3 Mishra's Factory
    4 Castle Locthwain
    16 Swamp

    Sideboard
    4 Dauthi Voidwalker
    2 Bontu's Last Reckoning
    2 Delerium Skeins
    2 Damping Sphere
    2 Collective Brutality
    2 Ratchet Bomb
    1 Plague engineer (I knew at least one player was on elves, so I figured why not).

    I swapped out IOK for TS right before going, hoping I wouldn't run into burn (spoiler: I did Round 1). So I added CoBru as a sideboard option just in case.

    Round 1: Caleb on RW Lurrus Burn
    Game 1 - OTD - I didn't do all that great, had a some early TS discard, but he opened with Goblin guide and all the bolts. So I had a steady down tick and never got him below 18.

    Game 2 - OTP - Sided in 2 Co Bru, out 1 TS and I think 1 4 Mana lili, but not sure. Probably could have brought in Ratchet Bomb for his creatures but figured my removal was sufficient. Opened up with early discard and smallpox. Saw enough poxes actually that I was able to keep him off lands completely. Took me a while to get him but eventually got there with 3 racks and 2 lili's (1 of each). Won with 10 life. I think he got down an eidolon that stuck around for a couple turns too, but it might have been game 3.

    Game 3, OTD - Went similar to the second game with lots of small poxing to slow the game down. Eventually get a lone rack to start pinging and making him think about keeping cards in hand. Followed up with some discard and a Dave to put the pressure on. Was down to 2 life myself and lived for 2 draws before I was able to ravens crime or wrench mind him into lethal rack damage.

    1-0 match, 2-1 games.

    Round 2 - Paul on elves.
    Took the play both times, I know I probably shoud be on the draw with this deck but I feel like I'm slightly slower with all the 3 and 4 mana spells, so I want to get my lands down early. Not sure if that's right or not. Plus, I know how fast this elves deck is so I wanted to be able to get to said mana quickly so I could try to control the game with walkers.

    Went 0-2 this round, both games played out similarly. T1 discard or fatal push, t2 small pox, t3 wrench mind. Dropped racks to try to race and almost did it G1 (he was at 2, I was at 11 before the lethal swing). Game 2 After the strong opener I think I small poxed my own lands too hard and couldn't keep up with his recovery. Was not a close G2.

    1-1 match, 2-3 games.

    Round 3 - Andrew on UR Murktide/DRC/Ragavan.

    G1 - OTD, Both mulled to 6 (sweet). I don't have many notes on this one but we had a pretty good battle, spot removal and discard kept the game in check until his big Murktide, which I was able to deploy a Lili to deal with. Was putting on pressure with affliction and got him down to 1 before I was killed by a flashed in Brazen borrower on my end step that I had no answer for. I had a pretty rough start as my first 2 lands were Castles and I had no swamps, so it was slow going but I at least made a game of it. Considered mulling to 5, and probably should have.

    G2 sided in ratchet bombs for big Lili I think. In hindsight, Voidwalkers should have been brought in as well.
    OTP (i know, I know) - Didn't have a great go. Did the discard, creature, spot removal, counterspell battle for a bit, but I eventually die to double murktide with the ability to onnly kill one of them. 9/9 flyer gets me.

    1-2 match, 2-5 games.

    Round 4 - Bye. Took 5th of 9. Burn opponent was my only win and he took second (all T4 were 3-1), and it was the matchup I was fearing most haha.

    Anyway, I feel like I'll try another build with a lighter mana curve to see if I can speed things up a bit. Game 1 rounds 2 and 3 I was in them, just need that little extra push. R3 opponent seemed pretty knowledgeable so I picked his brain a little bit.

    Represented by the other players was Boomer Jund, another Murktide deck and I forgot the rest.



    Strategy question - if opp has 3+ cards in hand, do you play a rack if you have the mana for it as a disincentive to play cards, or do you wait to cast it for maximum effect? I've been dropping it early when I know it can't be countered, but obviously that leaves it open for removal in G2 and 3, and does nothing to impact the board or get me ahead otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Look at the bright side, if Legacy becomes like Vintage all of us old dudes can get together, drink whiskey, and smoke cigars while we play the gentleman's format. Like an MtG speak-easy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    And the Reserved List causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their portfolios: and that no man might buy or sell cards or Chinese rip offs, save he made a post about the Reserved List or the number of its Threads: 666.

  13. #13
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    Re: 8-Rack

    It has been *some* time since I sat down across from an opponent to play Modern. So I do not pretend that my input is 100% reliable for the current meta or that I know the best way to build the deck to attack the meta.

    Having said that, here is a link to an Eight Rack thread I started after Tom Ross put the deck on most people's radar:

    https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...746-Eight-Rack

    At the time (and I believe the deck is still it's strongest when) there was a specific popular deck for Eight Rack to prey upon. Splinter Twin was everywhere as the 'policeman of the format and just couldn't deal with Eight Rack. My experience with the deck was that you trade resources 1 to 1 until both players have no 'moving parts' on board and no cards in hand, then you win because of impactful topdecks for a game in that condition. Usually that is keeping the opponent's hand empty while The Rack passively kills them, but sometimes it was swinging with Mutavault on an empty board.

    The Tron matchup is abysmal and that deck hasn't changed since I was actively playing. What decks in the current age are most prevalent and have an inherent weakness to discard?

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