Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kruchkow View Post
1) It may be less CC but it costs an off color to the deck. You can say its not worth it to play it because it has more downsides and less potential upsides that Cabal Rit or Rite of Flame.

2) How does duress stop an active counterbalance? And last i checked, TES ran duress and Chant but i would rather only worry about active counterbalance than counterbalance, Force, stifle....

3) Hes saying that you list is worse vs. blue because you can only get 4 counters from them since you only have duress. See the Chant vs Duress arguments a few pages earlier.

4) Diminishing Returns is a last ditch thing. If you have to go for it, you probally aren't in a position to use AdN. Also, your chances of getting one of 2x Mystical or 2x AdN is the same as getting 4x AdN, only one hurts a hell of a lot less during AdN.

Overall, the debate isn't necessarily that Tinder Wall is bad, obviously it isn't since it is played in Belcher but what is being said is that it is just inferior to other mana accel options.
1) It's a 5c mana base and it can be cast pre-combo, it's easier to cast Tinder Wall than it is to cast Orim's Chant.

2) Who said anything about active Counterbalance? Every Duress, Red Elemental and Pyroblast is in here to stop Counterbalance from resolving, because that's our most effective method of dealing with Counterbalance.

3) Ad Nauseam just made Orim's Chant less necessary, which lets you focus on disruption that hits Counterbalance, I totally don't buy Orim's Chant > Duress vs Islands for a second.

4) No, Diminishing Returns isn't your last option, it's your only option. My point wasn't casting either Diminishing Returns or Ad Nauseam, my point was casting Diminishing Returns, drawing Ad Nauseam off of Diminishing Returns and then resolving Ad Nauseam 4TW ... Mystical Tutor can't do that. The more Ad Nauseams you have, the more your Brainstorm/Ponder and Diminishing Returns are worth.