Amonkhet, a new Plane for the next Block

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Shadow of the Grave is oddly worded - how does one cycle a card without discarding it? It's part of the friggin' cost of cycling a card (i.e. any card you cycle falls under the clause "cards you discarded this turn" - therefor there's no need to specifically mention cycling on SotG).

maaaybe there is a super edge case where a replacement effect alters discarding into: put it into your graveyard instead


nah joke it doest make sense...

[bruizar]

I think it makes a lot of sense. Not everyone that plays magic is a 20+ year eternal veteran. Cycle or discard is mentioned on a bunch of other cards.

I really, really like Grasping Dunes. Finally a quicksand that doesn't require the (utility) creature to attack, a barbarian ring that doesn't require red mana or threshold, and a mouth of ronom that does not require 5 mana of which one is snow. Great card against things like Young Pyromancer or Mother of Runes.

[rufus]

Shadow of the Grave is oddly worded - how does one cycle a card without discarding it? It's part of the friggin' cost of cycling a card (i.e. any card you cycle falls under the clause "cards you discarded this turn" - therefor there's no need to specifically mention cycling on SotG).

Maybe there's some (as yet unspoiled) replacement effect for discard coming.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I think it makes a lot of sense. Not everyone that plays magic is a 20+ year eternal veteran. Cycle or discard is mentioned on a bunch of other cards.

I really, really like Grasping Dunes. Finally a quicksand that doesn't require the (utility) creature to attack, a barbarian ring that doesn't require red mana or threshold, and a mouth of ronom that does not require 5 mana of which one is snow. Great card against things like Young Pyromancer or Mother of Runes.

Yah its great. With crucible/Loam it can get rid of nearly everything. It reads slow but even a Gurmag angler wont kill you (10 dmg thou). Prolly just a 1 off tutor target in these kinda decks. Its also awkward vs DRS but not total terrible. (with crucible shoot it regain priority land drop shoot again)

[rufus]

maaaybe there is a super edge case where a replacement effect alters discarding into: put it into your graveyard instead


nah joke it doest make sense...

It doesn't interact with cycling, but I'm curious about the interaction with Library of Leng now.

Edit: Cards from graveyard only, so not so much fun.

[rufus]

...

Are there any other ways to break it? There's also LED, but with a net gain of a single mana an extra card, it doesn't seem very good.

Ill-Gotten Gains could work. There's discard offset draw stuff like Cephalid Coliseum or Cathartic Reunion. There are lots of ways to loot in bulk like Jeskai Ascension or Riddlesmith. There also some marginal 'discard as a cost' cards like Mind over Matter or Zombie Infestation. It's fun with Bomat Courier and there's higher CC stuff like Breakthrough.

[TsumiBand]

For the cycling deck of your dreams?

T1: Bayou, Dark Ritual, Shadow of the Grave, before passing priority cast One With Nothing

[H]

T1: Bayou, Dark Ritual, Shadow of the Grave, before passing priority cast One With Nothing

What did you accomplish there?

I think they only real thing to abuse would be Seismic Assault.

[morgan_coke]

Holy wow Shadow of the Grave is amazing. Honestly might be good enough to replace Loam in Slide decks, which would let you drop Green and open up all kinds of possibilities. Crazy good card.

I do wonder about it's potential as a combo enable. Some here have mentioned Ill-Gotten Gains, LED, and Infernal Tutor, but I see it as more in line with Behold the Beyond. I don't know if BtB is good enough for Legacy, but this combo is probably good enough for Modern. Mabye.

EDIT: this plus Breakthrough for 1 is 4 mana to draw 7. That's not bad.
EDIT2: oh, it's only 4 cards, not that great. Tolarian Winds maybe? No. Hmm. Whatever, Faithless Looting and any draw/discard spell or repeatable effect works. Maybe Jeskai Ascendancy or something?

[Megadeus]

Slots perfectly in my Leyline of the void, Ill Gotten Gains deck that I have never made a list for but sounds hilarious in theory

[H]

Slots perfectly in my Leyline of the void, Ill Gotten Gains deck that I have never made a list for but sounds hilarious in theory

One of our locals played it a few times last month or so. Funny and scary when it works, but clunky and inconsistent most of the time.

[Cire]

So upset Winds of Change doesn't discard but shuffles your hands :/

[Darkenslight]

Slots perfectly in my Leyline of the void, Ill Gotten Gains deck that I have never made a list for but sounds hilarious in theory

Legacy IGGy Pop?

He's the real MVP!

What's interesting, though, is that this card has to be the first card taken, if you have two mana open. So, for decks with discard as disruption, Shadows might see some play as a result of being anti-discard hate. I'#m also amused by the interaction between this and Raven's Crime.

[rufus]

If you really want to combo, you could try for Necrologia -> Fateful Showdown + Shadow of the Grave

Another dopey (a.k.a. bad) way to go is Greater Good.

[morgan_coke]

If you really want to combo, you could try for Necrologia -> Fateful Showdown + Shadow of the Grave

Another dopey (a.k.a. bad) way to go is Greater Good.

Greater Good + Yosei + Goryo's + SotG?

[TsumiBand]

Holy wow Shadow of the Grave is amazing. Honestly might be good enough to replace Loam in Slide decks, which would let you drop Green and open up all kinds of possibilities.

It's been a very long time since I played a deck with Loam in it, but isn't this like saying an engine deck doesn't need its engine? Like you draw Loam once and unless it gets exiled, you're online. Is Loam recursion just not very important then, because if not it sounds like maybe the deck could drop the whole routine in the first place and evolve into something more stronk

[apple713]

Legacy IGGy Pop?

He's the real MVP!

What's interesting, though, is that this card has to be the first card taken, if you have two mana open. So, for decks with discard as disruption, Shadows might see some play as a result of being anti-discard hate. I'#m also amused by the interaction between this and Raven's Crime.

Fluctuator might actually see some play with Shadows of the grave. Maybe it's too cute?

[TsumiBand]

I wonder if Shadow of the Grave could be part of some durdly combo with like Wild Mongrel or Stoic Champion... usually "I make my dude infinitely big" combos are terribad though, and probably inferior to Infect.dec, right? Wild Mongrel though, I just want him to return and reclaim his once vaunted role as "probably the best Green 2-drop" :( :(

[morgan_coke]

It's been a very long time since I played a deck with Loam in it, but isn't this like saying an engine deck doesn't need its engine? Like you draw Loam once and unless it gets exiled, you're online. Is Loam recursion just not very important then, because if not it sounds like maybe the deck could drop the whole routine in the first place and evolve into something more stronk

The loam engine and the previously available pool of cycling cards put a lot of build restrictions on a cycling deck that over time, evolved to be... not very good. SotG and the various new cycling cards are strong enough that those may not be necessary anymore.

For example, right now I would lean towards UBw as the colors of a cycling deck, which is a huge shift from where it used to be, and potentially much stronger too. Have to wait for the full set, that may change going forward.

[Cire]

I.e. Fluctuator. Let's imagine a best case scenario:

Turn 1 - Land (6 cards in hand)
Turn 2 - Land, Fluctuator (5 cards in hand)
Turn 3 - Cycle 3 cards, should get about 2 extra cyclers. Cycle them too. Should get at least one more cycler. Cycle it. You should have cycled about 6 cyclers and have 4 non-cycling cards in hand. Cast Shadow of the Grave. Cycle the 6 cards you discarded. You should get about 3 extra cyclers. Cycle them. Maybe you'll get another cycler. Cycle it. You should have 7 non-cycling cards in your hand at this point and no mana open. I guess the combo is to cast a lotus petal into a dark ritual into another Shadow of the grave that you should have drawn at this point. You at this point cycled 10 cards, cycle them all again. You should draw about 6 other cyclers, cycle them and get 3 more cylcer and then another. Cycle them. You should have about 15 non-cycling cards in your hand at this point and 1 mana open. Repeat the process and draw most of your deck. Using the extra mana from the dark rituals, cast another lotus petal into lab maniac and cycle to win?

So the deck would at the beggining look like:

4 Fluctuator
4 Shadow of the Grave
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
1 Lab Maniac

4 Barren Moor
4 Lands that don't ETBT
9 Cycling Lands
26 Cycling cards

You then fiddle with the numbers. Do you really need 4 shadows, petals or rituals? You only need 36 cylcers, should you get rid of 3? Would that leave room for enlightened tutor? The 4 non-ETB tapped lands could be Mox diamonds since you can then discard a cycle land for them and get it back with Shadows. And, etc.

However, it seems that even at it's best it's a turn 2-3 combo deck with no protection.