[Primer] Nic Fit

[square_two]

I think 2-of value wish could be interesting, but then you get into some deep sideboarding. I like it. Wish, untap, Tsabo's Decree you?

I feel like Bone Picker seems REALLY interesting. Same with Strix + Meren.

-Matt

I'm tempted to try something like this for giggles. Doesn't really look like nic fit but it does look like it would just crush most creature-based decks.

3 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 Bone Picker
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
3 Pernicious Deed (or 2?)
3 Green Sun's Zenith

21 lands, 1 Stronghold

I do like the idea of Rhonas...not a bad manasink at all. Tap 6 mana, attack for 10 with Strix and Rhonas. Deck loses some flex tools (and arguably could trim on Brutality) without "big" permanent removal, but I just don't see this ever losing to Delver.

Also, don't understand the current hate on BUG Fit. Sure, I've sold my soul over to Brainstorm, but at least I'm consistent now and can find my sideboard cards

[Ricardio]

Always quad rhino! Haha
Kambal has been fine. He has to be dealt with immediately.

[Yutao]

Always quad rhino! Haha
Kambal has been fine. He has to be dealt with immediately.

Kambal has been a tad bit slow. Sure it's pretty dece against burn and storm, but it doesn't come down fast enough nor can you find it with GSZ. TBH if you're on junk fit, going rhino, rhino, thragtusk does a very good job against burn.

[MDHackbert]

I've enjoyed sideboard Kambal in Deadguy; he supplements other tools like CoBru. I would echo that in Nic Fit, where it sounds like he is acting more in a vacuum as a ringer against an archetype, without the ability to tutor him out, he feels much looser in that role. Would rather Rhino/Tusk. If burn is a large part of the meta where you are, Obstinate Baloth could also do work. Hell, even Finks isn't the worst.

[Ricardio]

Kambal has been a tad bit slow. Sure it's pretty dece against burn and storm, but it doesn't come down fast enough nor can you find it with GSZ. TBH if you're on junk fit, going rhino, rhino, thragtusk does a very good job against burn.

I've enjoyed sideboard Kambal in Deadguy; he supplements other tools like CoBru. I would echo that in Nic Fit, where it sounds like he is acting more in a vacuum as a ringer against an archetype, without the ability to tutor him out, he feels much looser in that role. Would rather Rhino/Tusk. If burn is a large part of the meta where you are, Obstinate Baloth could also do work. Hell, even Finks isn't the worst.

He is one more mana than I would like and he isn't green but he is a lock piece like canonist that punishes them for trying to find an answer as well. I do not think baloth or finks are worth slots nor are we in need of more life gain (see 4 rhino and thragtusk). The deck needs hate for combo. Game plan is hand hate into lock piece and ride rhino into the sunset while jamming out to your favorite song.

[Warden]

I'll join the recent discussion about Nic Fit ideas. Not sure if I'll be able to play my monthly this weekend or not.

@Rhino: Card is good. 4 may be too much IMO. I think 3 + a suite of Zeniths is sufficient for most metas. Like a good baseball player, Rhino shines when you give it "protection" in the batting order. On its own, Rhino doesn't win the game on its own. You need something for 3cc (Tracker, etc) and/or something for 5cc/6cc (Tusk, Titans) to make your board significantly better than the opponent's.

@Moon effects: These are really good. I don't see a conflict of interest with Vet and Magus/Blood Moons. You're going to benefit more than the opponent. When the table slants heavily in your favor, you profit. The interesting thing to point out is the sheer amount of fetchlands in top 8 lists right now. Shit, even DnT is experimenting with splashes in addition to their plethora of utility lands.

@Abrupt Decay: This is commentary on a discussion several pages back. I think this card is the reason to run BG in the format (deathrite is not strictly BG so I don't consider him in the BG discussion). Counterbalance is out, but low cc permanents are in.

...And wow, is this thread picking up again. Luckily i can skip all the Blue BUG talk, cus screw Blue.

My man.

@Reani-fit: Tinkered with this for a while and concluded it's just worse than Sneaky Fit. You need conditionals that, as a whole, are harder to establish in the meta than [big stupid in your hand + sneak attack on table + red mana open]. I tried making Reanimator featuring Nic Fit and Nic Fit featuring Reanimator and it just didn't work.

4 Vet
1 Sakura
1 Witness
1 Meren
2 Tracker
1 Thragtusk
1 GraveTime
2 Reanimator Targets
2 Zenith
/14

3 Deed
3 Decay
/6

4 Therapy
8 Reanimation Effects
8 Put Stuff in the Grave Effects
- (b) Entomb, Buried Alive, Thoughtseize, Collective Brutality, Liliana of the Veil
- (bg) Grisly Salvage
- (g) Fauna Shaman, Commune with the Gods, Wild Mongrel
- (r) Faithless Looting, Firestorm
/20

20 Lands

I still can't wrap my head around how to assemble this deck. I'm pretty sure you'd want 14-16 Nic Fit pieces...although what you exactly run is beyond the scope of what I can figure out. Running the usual suspects like Tracker/Rhino/Tusk is actually tough because Reani-Fit only has 20 lands.

*I seriously looked at The Mimeoplasm. (GSZ) + Buried Alive + Mimeo creates an interesting line of play. Perhaps there's something there I couldn't see.
*Nec. Ooze combo also has potential, but you kinda want the blue filters more than Nic Fit around him.
*Red has the best raw power. Faithless Looting is actually just a sweet card for Nic Fit in general. It's easy to pay for and has flashback to continue filtering. It rarely disrupts Jund Fit's natural gameplan. Red also gives us Firestorm, which dumps stupids into the 'yard as it boardwipes. JUND also gives us the natural ability to play Slaughter Games (never a bad thing).
*Blue was tempting, but ultimately you're running a very weak UB reanimator deck. Body Double isn't enough. Strix doesn't fit the gameplan (even a slow one built on Rec. Nightmare). Gifts/Intuition assemble a worse sneak attack deck. The one upside was Show and Tell-Fit, but I cannot find that to be a better deck than Sneak/Show.
*White has the most flexibility for a Nic Fit shell IMO. Karmic Guide is straight value regardless of a finisher in the yard. Salvage plays nice with Unburial. The option of Sun Titan has an upside of Animate Dead making the list. Reanimate Sun Titan -> grab AD -> grab another guy. There's potential to run Junk-Fit and insert Karmic Guides.

I didn't think about Hulk combos. MrIggins tickles my brain on the Mikaeus/Ballista thing. How would you build around those two?

[pettdan]

@Warden:
Below you'll find my latest BUG Fit Reanimator list. I played it last week going 2-1-1 in the local weekly event. The lost match was 1-2 and both losses were to Winter Orb. Still figuring that card out, already have answers so maybe being aware of it will help. I think boarding in FoWs may be ok. Last time I played the deck, maybe last September, I had a similar result.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1005288
[edit: Actually now with -1 Maelstrom Pulse, +1 Ponder which I'll change into +1 Liliana of the Veil. Also sideboard +2 Invasive Surgery, +1 Fatal Push, -1 Toxic Deluge, -1 Back to Basics, -1 Ensnaring Bridge. I'm considering To the Slaughter over Edict and Eternal Witness over one Snapcaster since it's GSZ-able, but I think Snapcaster is preferable.]

Basically the list I play is using the Reanimation package as a value package (could have been Unearth) but occasionally doing broken things and offering quick combo interaction through Entomb + Reanimate Glenn Elendra.The anti-combo package is pretty good for a Nic Fit maindeck with Entomb acting as extra discard (flashback Therapy), GSZ for Leovold stopping cantrips, Liliana for extra discard and monster-removal, Jace fatesealing, Glenn Elendra providing softlock and Reanimate extending it, Strixes and Snappys offering Therapy-flashback to avoid ramping the opponent, and Collective Brutality for extra discard. It's very nice to have all these options in the maindeck. The sideboard offers very good alternatives with Invasive Surgery very easily reaching Delirium thanks to Strixes and cantrips, and there's FoW and Flusterstorm and Snappy doubles up on them and Surgical too.

On the value side of things having access to 3-9 Strixes (Reanimate + Snapcaster) or similarly 3-7 Leovolds (strange counting here but I include the GSZ's in the lower amount), Snapcasters doubling up on removal and Jace + Liliana that work well with Strixes, Deeds and the removal + Snappys. All these nice things in a list with proper filtering seems very worthy of testing to me. It lacks the linearity and strength of Rhinos with lots of removal or Sneak + monster and it can take some time to close out games. Maybe I just need to learn it better, but I doubt the list I tried is optimal. Would be nice if someone else would try it, it's lots of fun.

And then there are the strong plays of t2 reanimated Grave Titan or the Veteran ramp into Jace t2. I left a more fancy list with e.g. Griselbrand and moved to a list that puts less focus on the monsters. Both Grave Titan, Thragtusk and Glenn Elendra are castable, don't even need have to ramp into them but if we're ramping it's pretty nice to be able to Reanimate a Veteran in case of Stifle or FoW.

[Yutao]

I guess you need a sac outlet for Mike+Ballista to go off? I'm not sure about running a 3 card combo tho.

[Bobmans]

Not to fully dismiss the reanimate NicFit variant, but doesn't Sneak Attack already doing what reanimate NicFit wants to do with less cards and less hate? For Sneak Attack we dodge the graveyard. Plus isn't Pattern of Rebirth not a better alternative to drop huge Bombs like Progenitus, Emrakul or Worldspine Wurm?
Again, My concern on Reanimator is that it requires more cards and is easier to hate.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

[Echelon]

If burn is a large part of the meta where you are, Obstinate Baloth could also do work. Hell, even Finks isn't the worst.

How about a maindeck w/ multiple DRS, a Scavenging Ooze, Courser of Kruphix and 4 Rhinos..? Works just fine, I can tell you.

I'll join the recent discussion about Nic Fit ideas. Not sure if I'll be able to play my monthly this weekend or not.

@Rhino: Card is good. 4 may be too much IMO. I think 3 + a suite of Zeniths is sufficient for most metas. Like a good baseball player, Rhino shines when you give it "protection" in the batting order. On its own, Rhino doesn't win the game on its own. You need something for 3cc (Tracker, etc) and/or something for 5cc/6cc (Tusk, Titans) to make your board significantly better than the opponent's.

...

@Abrupt Decay: This is commentary on a discussion several pages back. I think this card is the reason to run BG in the format (deathrite is not strictly BG so I don't consider him in the BG discussion). Counterbalance is out, but low cc permanents are in.

Sigarda is enough, 6-drops are just overkill.

On AD: What CMC <= 3 non-land permanents are there that we can't answer w/ other, cheaper (or GSZ-able) tools..? I don't think Nic Fit has much need for AD at this particular moment.

Not to fully dismiss the reanimate NicFit variant, but doesn't Sneak Attack already doing what reanimate NicFit wants to do with less cards and less hate? For Sneak Attack we dodge the graveyard. Plus isn't Pattern of Rebirth not a better alternative to drop huge Bombs like Progenitus, Emrakul or Worldspine Wurm?
Again, My concern on Reanimator is that it requires more cards and is easier to hate.

You cast your Pattern of Rebirth, targeting your little creature. Opponent: Bolt your creature (or whatever other removal). Thank you for the 2-for-1. And then there's Stifle. I've dabbled with it long enough to know that Summoner's Egg is the better option, and that also isn't Legacy-viable.

[pettdan]

Not to fully dismiss the reanimate NicFit variant, but doesn't Sneak Attack already doing what reanimate NicFit wants to do with less cards and less hate? For Sneak Attack we dodge the graveyard. Plus isn't Pattern of Rebirth not a better alternative to drop huge Bombs like Progenitus, Emrakul or Worldspine Wurm?
Again, My concern on Reanimator is that it requires more cards and is easier to hate.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

I actually changed to the Sneaky Fit list when it appeared and stopped working on the Reanimator version, I also think Sneaky Fit may be more powerful. I'm not trying to maximize power with the reanimator list, rather synergy, smoothness, efficiency, while keeping an unfair element - I think. And now with SDT gone I'd rather go back to a list with good card filtering rather than starting experiments on how to replace SDT (that will be for later).

The advantage of the BUG Reanimator list, I think, is that:
a) you have good card filtering with Brainstorms + Snapcasters and Strixes and even a Ponder or two - which is known to be very valuable for a deck in this format,
b) you can board into or even maindeck counterspells and even reach delirium for Invasive Surgery, providing perhaps(!) a more consistent combo plan than most Nic Fit versions (very much up to proving, I guess),
c) maindeck Glenn Elendra who is good value in fair matchups, blocking Marit Lage and Delvers well and above all providing soft lock vs combo,
d) potential to tutor for and reanimate Glenn Elendra from turn two with blue mana open, which is a pretty good move [edit: in combo matchups],
e) strixes are sweet vs fair decks, obviously, just play the cantripping roadblock and dig further into your deck for the next land you're missing or whatever, and then you reanimate the Strix or Veteran or Snapcaster to double up on removal or whatever crucial aspect of the Nic Fit strategy you find yourself in current need of - the deck has a solid (or well, I'm testing it) fair game plan, [edit: include here the planeswalker + deed synergy]
f) the possibility of Reanimating a Grave Titan (or whatever you choose to play), this is not the main plan just a good option to have that will give some easy wins. [edit: It's also highly possible to ramp into the Grave Titan Nic Fit style, hence you're not depending on the reanimation strategy]

So to conclude there is maindeck combo interaction for little mana, there is card selection and there is a stable fair plan with the potential to do kind of unfair stuff. I started with a more unfair game plan but I didn't like the clunkiness.

The graveyard interaction isn't, I think, a weakness of this list. Rather it may be an advantage. I tend to board out parts of the small reanimation package, if opponents bring in gravehate that opens up for the fair planeswalker+bridge plan.

Let me in response ask what Sneaky Fit does that BUG Reanimator wants to do (i.e. points a-e above)? Not saying that BUG Reanimator Fit is a better deck, but it has some advantages that I appreciate.

[LVA]

On AD: What CMC <= 3 non-land permanents are there that we can't answer w/ other, cheaper (or GSZ-able) tools..? I don't think Nic Fit has much need for AD at this particular moment.

Killing delver is still a thing. Having an uncounterable way to get rid of a problem permanent in a format with a ton of cheaper counters is still pretty useful.

[Echelon]

Killing delver is still a thing. Having an uncounterable way to get rid of a problem permanent in a format with a ton of cheaper counters is still pretty useful.

@AD mana available, PtE/Fatal Push has "can't be Dazed", meaning your opponent'll have to 2-for-1 himself w/ a FoW if they're to protect their Delver. I don't know about you, but getting my opponent to 2-for-1 themselves so they can stop my 1 mana card is perfectly fine by me. It also means they're less likely to have the FoW when they really need it, and, at least w/ Junk Fit, I'm perfectly fine with spending some life points (by getting Delver'd in the face) to accomplish that.

This deck plans to ignore Daze/Wasteland and overload your opponents' FoW . Gives their deck 8 dead cards and only 4 get-out-of-jail-free cards vs. all your stuff.

[LVA]

@AD mana available, PtE/Fatal Push has "can't be Dazed", meaning your opponent'll have to 2-for-1 himself w/ a FoW if they're to protect their Delver. I don't know about you, but getting my opponent to 2-for-1 themselves so they can stop my 1 mana card is perfectly fine by me. It also means they're less likely to have the FoW when they really need it, and, at least w/ Junk Fit, I'm perfectly fine with spending some life points (by getting Delver'd in the face) to accomplish that.

This deck plans to ignore Daze/Wasteland and overload your opponents' FoW . Gives their deck 8 dead cards and only 4 get-out-of-jail-free cards vs. all your stuff.

Cards like food chain also exist, so having a no-nonsense way to kill that is non-trivial. More importantly with bant deathblade doing pretty well online being able to destroy the equipment is a big deal. SFM decks can go long, but without a jitte or sword of x and y their creatures are kind of unimpressive, at least compared to ours, so being able to win that battle is pretty significant in that match up.

Oh and death and taxes.

[Echelon]

Cards like food chain also exist, so having a no-nonsense way to kill that is non-trivial. More importantly with bant deathblade doing pretty well online being able to destroy the equipment is a big deal. SFM decks can go long, but without a jitte or sword of x and y their creatures are kind of unimpressive, at least compared to ours, so being able to win that battle is pretty significant in that match up.

Oh and death and taxes.

So... PtE, Pernicious Deed & Qasali Pridemage?

What else you got?

[LVA]

So... PtE, Pernicious Deed & Qasali Pridemage?

What else you got?

Relying too much on deed can be a bit of a risky proposition, especially against something like d&t. Decay is just a flexible removal spell, which is never bad. If you want to cut it go ahead, I'm sure you have your reasoning, but having something more versatile than path/swords/push can be pretty helpful at times, so I'd rather run it just because of that.

[Echelon]

Relying too much on deed can be a bit of a risky proposition, especially against something like d&t. Decay is just a flexible removal spell, which is never bad. If you want to cut it go ahead, I'm sure you have your reasoning, but having something more versatile than path/swords/push can be pretty helpful at times, so I'd rather run it just because of that.

Yup, I've been doing without for a long time, running 4 PtE and a QPM instead and have been doing just fine.

My point though is that even though AD is a versatile card, a) you don't really need the versatility and b) it isn't that versatile that you lose anything when you don't run it, especially now Miracles is gone. I'm just trying to make people think here. It's often considered an auto-include without any reasoning while, with some reasoning, you can conclude you can omit it in favor of faster or GSZ'able cards, improving both the speed and consistency of your deck. Many roads lead to Rome, and all that.

As for D&T - it's one of my regular training buddies. The MU is fine, especially when you bring in Golgari Charms for G2/3.

[Whitefaces]

Fwiw I play a lot of Grixis Delver and I'm very glad to see less Abrupt Decays. The uncounterable clause is a lot more relevant than you think. We need to be hyper aggressive as your late game is so good, so I'll FoW stuff like PtE and Push on a Delver most of the time (ofc game state dependent). Stifle on Vet triggers can keep things like Piece live too.

[Echelon]

Fwiw I play a lot of Grixis Delver and I'm very glad to see less Abrupt Decays. The uncounterable clause is a lot more relevant than you think. We need to be hyper aggressive as your late game is so good, so I'll FoW stuff like PtE and Push on a Delver most of the time (ofc game state dependent). Stifle on Vet triggers can keep things like Piece live too.

Grixis Delver is my sparring partner's other deck .

Stifle is how I tend to fall most often, denying my deck the mana it craves. AD doesn't do much to prevent that. I just have to keep making those land drops so I can get to the late game before Grixis' creatures get there. Heck, often enough I'll try to go and GSZ for Dryad Arbor on my T1 to help break through the mana denial.

[Whitefaces]

Grixis Delver is my sparring partner's other deck .

Stifle is how I tend to fall most often, denying my deck the mana it craves. AD doesn't do much to prevent that. I just have to keep making those land drops so I can get to the late game before Grixis' creatures get there. Heck, often enough I'll try to go and GSZ for Dryad Arbor on my T1 to help break through the mana denial.

AD does solve the mana problems to an extent. If you're stuck on just a few lands, regardless of whether you can cast W/B for PtE/Push with mana up to pay for Daze, the Delver player has the option to counter it. If you're low on mana you're going to need further time to set up.

The point I'm trying to make is that Delver is willing to trade cards for damage aggressively vs Nic Fit, especially since Therapy can clear the way of FoW to resolve bombs later anyway so I will snap it off if I can. Decay doesn't give that option. I mean, did you really just play Decay for Counterbalance before? In the deck that has a high enough curve to not care about it most of the time?