All B/R update speculation.

[Ronald Deuce]

And awaaaay we gooooo!

Seriously, team, what the fuck? Everybody wishes certain cards didn't exist, but this is getting ridiculous. Shouldn't good cards be the thing that separates this format from Modern?

[MorphBerlin]

Yeah in a format where Probe is still legal (for some reason), top deck tutors are going to be very good. I'm honestly surprised there's no personal tutor mono blue omni deck out there, but I guess personal tutor is terrible enough that it sees no play

I don't think it will stay in Legacy much longer, it's allready the 4th most played non-land card acording to mtgtop8 for the last 2 weeks. Would be nice to take this card away from combo

[Megadeus]

I mean Phyrexian Mana is all a huge retarded fucking mistake. Probe is no exception. It's a stupid card on all accounts and is provides an effect that promotes petty boring gameplay. -1 mana to draw a card and gain perfect info while providing storm, creating tokens, or taking away the skill needed to play cabal therapy is insane. If I really need to explain how dumb of a card it is, then you just don't get it. There are two cards currently banned in modern and restricted in vintage but legal in legacy, both of them being one of the highest played cards in legacy. Basically, if a card is banned in modern and restricted in vintage, it's probably pretty fucking busted.

[Nestalim]

I agree that probe should go away.

[Lemnear]

I checked the thread to see if there was new input on YW, but unsurprisingly we are back to cantrips.

I am puzzled how everyone can bitch about "how BAD discard is with Brainstorm around" at the same time people point at "how OVERPOWERED Cabal Therapy is with Probe". Can you please pick ONE position, mates? Is discard now bad or overpowered? /s

[Megadeus]

I checked the thread to see if there was new input on YW, but unsurprisingly we are back to cantrips.

I am puzzled how everyone can bitch about "how BAD discard is with Brainstorm around" at the same time people point at "how OVERPOWERED Cabal Therapy is with Probe". Can you please pick ONE position, mates? Is discard now bad or overpowered? /s

What useful input would there be in YW? The card is hopelessly broken and will never sniff an unban. They won't even unban fucking earthcraft. And Probe is just a retarded card in general. Not just with therapy. Just in anything

[Dice_Box]

I have a list of cards I can pin to my archery target and shoot at. Probe is not one of them. I understand it's power, I understand it's value, I do not understand the hate. Of all the Blue cantrips, Probe is one of the more innocuous.

Right now ban talk is premature.

[Gheizen64]

Probe is nowhere ban material. It has nowhere the numbers, it doesn't fit in universally anything, and it doesn't pose questions that are hard to answer for anything that doesn't have permission.

[Lemnear]

Right now ban talk is premature.

Its just not comprehendible to talk about bannings while the meta is still stirred up and no one even has the slightest idea of with what top dog decks we end up with in a few weeks after the natural forth and back during the current phase.

[tescrin]

Probe's fine imo. I think it may actually make Storm worse a lot of the time, just because a Therapy already hits 100% of what you care about usually. It could reduce consistency since it's a "blank" card. If we start seeing it in RUG delver again, and non-blue decks, etc.. then alright. But currently it plays a major part in combo, and in Grixis

It's also not like we're in combo winter, and again, Therapy always hits those Forces anyway

[Ronald Deuce]

Probe's awesome, but I think it's a far cry from doing what the other stuff that's being discussed can do. I also think Legacy's in the sweet spot where a little bit of free deck-filtering doesn't overpower everything else in the format (Modern? Well, no, but—) or enable a ton of busted shenanigans and increase their consistency to an inordinate degree (Vintage).

Also, if they ban Probe, I'll have to hold a funeral for Oops All Spells.

[grimfield]

I will drunkenly brew wicked shit Worldgorger lists if they unban frantic search. Save me from myself WOTC

[Ronald Deuce]

I will drunkenly brew wicked shit Worldgorger lists if they unban frantic search. Save me from myself WOTC

Yyyeeeeeaaaaah! Desert Power!

[Kanti]

Can we trade Show and Tell for Dig through Time? I promise Dig through Time would enable some funky x4 DTT control lists. Please?

I can live with a ban on Ponder and GP if you just unban my sweet, sweet DTT. Cmon WotC, do it.

[MorphBerlin]

Can we trade Show and Tell for Dig through Time? I promise Dig through Time would enable some funky x4 DTT control lists. Please?

I can live with a ban on Ponder and GP if you just unban my sweet, sweet DTT. Cmon WotC, do it.

I guess your comment wasn't too serious but Delver can incoopreate 2+ DTT easily (like it did when Grixis Delver was a Top3 Deck before the Ban) and then hang with the slwoer decks which it's not suposed to do. DTT will not be Unbanned (although I loved it too)

I thought about banning Ponder if they want to hit cantrips but not touch BS. Problem is Preordain is almost as good as ponder tbh. It would just be replaced 1 for 1, so you'd have to ban both.

[tescrin]

I really think Ponder is fine now. A lot of lists are foregoing ponder (not delver) in order to have a more diverse mainboard or just not get stuck with it in hand when our Leord and master hit the table.

Oath of Nissa branched it out to Green and is quite usable in something like Maverick. While it basically has no next, pushing two cards to the bottom and nabbing the best of three is basically a preordain. Yeah it's only dudes/lands, but in Mav and decks like it, they're quite close to that already. GSZ is also quite the fixer.

Really, the issue with blue is one we don't want to fix, and that's force of will. Force requires a high blue count, therefore blue shells can't diversify while keeping good combo/tempo protection, therefore whatever the best blue cards are will float to the top.

For instance, it's difficult to do "Blue maverick" because you have to find blue analogs for some things so that 25-33% of your deck is blue. By that point, Thalia and whatnot are all bunk.

[Megadeus]

Or you can just not play force of will. Blue decks without force are very possible. And if you're used to playing maverick or some other non blue deck you realize force is the worst card in your deck most of the time anyway

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Or you can just not play force of will. Blue decks without force are very possible. And if you're used to playing maverick or some other non blue deck you realize force is the worst card in your deck most of the time anyway

This basically, in ultra fair metas, you tend to see Force get cut for more actual spells.

Card is good but not that good.

[tescrin]

This basically, in ultra fair metas, you tend to see Force get cut for more actual spells.

Card is good but not that good.

Agreed, but that's not a typical meta IME. Most are 25-35% combo or so, in which case Force often becomes the best (maindeck) card you can get, especially in turns 1 and 2. Any ultra-fair meta will probably eventually foster good Storm, Infect, or Elves players to just ramp over.

I played non-blue for a few years, but every damn Dredge, Belcher, Storm, Elves, Sneakshow, Infect, or Reanimator loss is highly annoying for the fact that there's a decidedly single way to deal with those in the timeframe you have (at least for the T1 losses.)

I wouldn't mind a worse Force that was just "if you control an Island, you may exile a card from your hand" and then "unless they pay {2}" tacked on. Not amazing, but it would allow for decks to run psuedo-Force without being "heavy" blue. Then decks that want to be cray can run "8 force of will" too, which would basically only be optimal for Griselbrand decks, but that's fine.

As dumb as it is, not-paying mana for stuff is a big deal for not-losing T1 to dumb things. A nerfed Force without the blue-restriction would probably be a boon for the format, even if it said "target instant or sorcery" in addition to the above. Until then, people will continue to run 15-25 blue cards if they even so much as dip into blue and want the benefits of it.

EDIT: If unmask had been instant speed, that also would've mostly fixed the problem, despite being a lot worse.

[Ace/Homebrew]

If Unmask had been instant speed, that also would've mostly fixed the problem, despite being a lot worse.

Holy crap that'd be great!

Show and Tell Pilot: Ancient Tomb, Lotus Petal... Show and Tell?
Instant Unmask Player: Sure! Unmask pitching [black card]. Take Griselbrand.
Show and Tell Pilot: ... Okay, Show and Tell resolves. I show Scalding Tarn.