[Primer] Nic Fit

[Brael]

How important is Veteran Explorer for your gameplan, I mean i can see 3 Veteran Explorer main with 4 Deathrite Shaman.

Also i can see a Jund splash happen here, going with PFire, Liliana, KCommand, Scooze and something toolboxie to replace the SFM Package

You're better off minimizing colors rather than splashing extras. It adds to the plan of having more consistency. The version I most often play is actually BG with no third color.

Vet is pretty important, it's not 100% required, but you would really like to have 3 mana on T2 at a minimum, and ideally 5 mana. Here's your mana openings and their yields on T2:
Vet+Therapy = 3
GSZ+Arbor = 3
DRS = 3
Vet+Tower = 5
Vet+Crop Rotation (for Tower) = 4
DRS+Crop Rotation = 4
GSZ+Crop Rotation = 4
DRS+Tower = 5
GSZ+Tower = 4

I think that's all of them. The reason you want 3 is so that you can play a 2 drop through Daze or so you can play something to advance your gameplan while also holding up some sort of interaction.

4 Vet is definitely better than cutting some for DRS though.

[Echelon]

I think that's all of them. The reason you want 3 is so that you can play a 2 drop through Daze or so you can play something to advance your gameplan while also holding up some sort of interaction.

Dryad Arbor -> Phyrexian Tower.

It's horrible AF, but 3 mana is 3 mana.

I very strongly despise Rhinoás positioning at the moment. Most of this is because of how the metagame has developed. Grixis, the lead Delver deck, as well as BUG, the second-runner, has Fatal Push, which allows them to actually have a removal spell for Rhino and thus not need to Force it. They also have Gurmag and, increasingly, Tombstalker, which can just ignore it. Stoneblade and Neo-miracles are running upwards of 4x Snapcaster with 4x StP and frequently a Councilás Judgment. They can also just ignore Rhino, let it resolve, sure you have a 4-mana Drain-3, and then nuke it and go on with their day.

This is problematic because Rhino isnát the card that wins you those matchups usually...or if it does, it comes after a long period of time when both players resources are drained (although the blue control decks arenát losing resources as quickly as they used to due to deeper snapcaster usage). You need Deed or Deluge to X-for-1 Delver and reset the board to a favorable position (I am aware of Deedás problems vs delve creatures, but you can usually answer those in other methods, like going bigger than them). You need planeswalkers like Nissa VF to help keep up with Jace vs Blade/Miracles/Czech, or some other kind of value engine. All of these things, the blue deck will now have Force for where they wouldnát have before, because Rhino is no longer sufficiently a threat to these decks.

I think that white builds going forward need to look increasingly towards Stoneforge options (more on this later, it has to do with Tracker), or towards superfriends with a pile of Lilianas, Gideons, and Nissas and a skeleton crew of GSZ targets, mostly ramp and recursion based. I donát have the resources to test either of those things on MTGO due to cost (Liliana, Last Hope is like 45 tix apiece, screw that). This is just my impressions.

...

-) Dryad Arbor

Arbor is fine if youáre on Intent, but otherwise Iám still kind of soft on it. I have been impressed by the number of utility functions that Iáve found for the card -- surprise blocking, fetching for Therapy flashback, EoT making a 1/1 to hit a planeswalker with....all of these things have come up. I know Sam has had success Zenith for 0, but for me, I tend to lose games I Zenith for 0. It feels like throwing away a Zenith, which is usually one of our best cards. I hate having Arbor in my hand. I absolutely detest it. I would rather just not play it than have it in my hand. When itás in the deck, though, itás fine. With Intent, I think itás a necessary evil, and Intent is really good in Sneak, so Iám begrudgingly fine with it.

I mostly just want to caution against Dryad Arbor being too highly regarded. Itás fine in some builds, it serves a purpose, but you really need to have that purpose in mind before putting it in your deck.

-) Lost Legacy

Not a fan anymore. The combo decks have diversified themselves too much. It might be different for Brael with his 4x copies and Deathrites to help achieve LL on turn 2, but for me with a pair of them and no Deathrites, itás not good enough. Storm is running Empty and Tendrils main, and donát even get me started on OmniSneakShowBreachTell.

-) Deathrite

Speaking of this guy, I still donát like it -- but Iáve refocused on the narrative of being a Pernicious Deed control deck, as opposed to being a midrange value deck. I was only ever running 1 or at most 2 copies, and we are ill equipped to fight against Delver or Deathblade -- decks that are literally built, ground up, to fight and win against other Deathrite Shaman decks. They have the selection, removal, and tempo to effectively fight opposing Shamans. We donát...or at least, I am unwilling to take the steps necessary to change that.

The G1s against the decks you name are hard, but postboard I feel like we're favored, around 60/40-ish. My plan has been to board in Duress and Lost Legacy. It sorta mirrors their tempo (blanking their mana denial long enough to get your manabase going) and lets you interact with the cards that hurt you most. It makes the MUs very doable.

-) Dryad Arbor - I guess the bottom line is that you have to have a very good reason to run it, and have to know very well what you're doing.

-) Lost Legacy - it's not just for the combo MUs. It's a nice, big raised middle finger to whatever bugs you. And you know what also helps with that T2 Lost Legacy..? That silly Arbor.

-) Deathrite Shaman - just make sure you also keep running the best Deathrite Shaman in the format - Scavenging Ooze. It's the best card ever to combat opposing DRS's. That being said, I do enjoy having 3 DRS in my MD. They're nice little lightning rods that sometimes even eat a Fatal Push. People don't like it when you start messing with their DRS, lol.

[fireiced]

Below is my Sneaky Fit list which I have used to win FNMs quite a bit and doing 4-1 on MTGO


Creatures 16
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Fierce Empath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Sorcery 11
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Night's Whispers
1 Diabolic Intent

Instant 5
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Kolaghan's Command

Enchantment 6
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Sneak Attack

Planeswalker 1
1 Nissa Vital Force

Lands 21
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
2 Taiga
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard::
2 Blood Moon
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Slaughter Games
2 Pyroblast
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Kolaghan's Command


Have yet to try Grave Titan but I take he is beasty. My hate for Elf and DnT is too strong to drop Inferno Titan.
Meren has been underperforming but I kept including her because of her synergy with Steve, I guess she will come out for Scooze
I want to remove Volrath's Stronghold but I just cannot find a spell land to replace. Absolutely sure that slot is a spell land slot. If I was on the punishing groove plan it be easy but I prefer the Fatal Push as my go to removal of choice here. Likely due to playstyle where I rather quickly want to sneak something in and do irreparable damage.

[Echelon]

I want to remove Volrath's Stronghold but I just cannot find a spell land to replace. Absolutely sure that slot is a spell land slot.

Simple. Phyrexian Tower #2.

[Brael]

Dryad Arbor -> Phyrexian Tower.

It's horrible AF, but 3 mana is 3 mana.

I don't count that one as an opening because GBB doesn't cast very much, and only leaves you with colorless as a followup. And if that's your opening you'll have spent 0 mana on T1.

[Arianrhod]

Simple. Phyrexian Tower #2.

Agreed, especially if your playstyle dictates that you are still aggressively sneaking people.

[Brael]

How important is Veteran Explorer for your gameplan, I mean i can see 3 Veteran Explorer main with 4 Deathrite Shaman.

Also i can see a Jund splash happen here, going with PFire, Liliana, KCommand, Scooze and something toolboxie to replace the SFM Package

Responding again with two more lists.

Here's my Rhino list. I believe it to be better than the SFM list, but I don't have any concrete proof of that, it's just a feeling because Rhino's are good
Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savanah
1 Scrubland
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith

Creature 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk

Spells 20
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
1 Vindicate
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed

I know you like Sigarda, but I would suggest against it in this list. 5 drops really need lifegain when paired with Dark Confidant. In the lands you'll note the Maze/Karakas swap. This is because I've found Maze to be super powerful with Rhino/Tusk as you can attack, but then untap in end of combat to threaten blocks as well.

Also, here's my GB list again, just to get them all in one spot. GB is my preferred list right now.
Land 25
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith

Creature 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

Spells 19
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Nissa, Vital Force

Sideboard 15
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Crop Rotation
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Golgari Charm
1 Karakas
4 Lost Legacy
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Treetop Village
1 Open

[fireiced]

Simple. Phyrexian Tower #2.

Agreed, especially if your playstyle dictates that you are still aggressively sneaking people.

In a roll with 2x Towers on MTGO right now. There is however a feeling we do not have enough fuel to fuel this much saccing of critters. Same feeling when I was running 2 Intents with 1 Tower

[Brael]

In a roll with 2x Towers on MTGO right now. There is however a feeling we do not have enough fuel to fuel this much saccing of critters. Same feeling when I was running 2 Intents with 1 Tower

You don't need to sacrifice every turn. Tower is for occasional rather than consistent acceleration. It's a way to hit between 3 and 5 mana on T2, or protect something from exile removal. You should only be activating it for BB a couple times per game.

[Echelon]

In a roll with 2x Towers on MTGO right now. There is however a feeling we do not have enough fuel to fuel this much saccing of critters. Same feeling when I was running 2 Intents with 1 Tower

You can also just tap it for colorless...

On a different note - I am cutting a Deed but am not running an equipment. I still want to be able to mess with my opponents' stuff (and particularly stuff that bothers me) so I'm running a Vindicate instead of a Deed. It answers pretty much literally any card that can possibly bother me (yes, yes, there's TTN, Progenitus, Emrakul, shush shush) where Deed sometimes can't. Its similar CMC also means it doesn't worsen my mana curve, which is nice.

[Brael]

You can also just tap it for colorless...

On a different note - I am cutting a Deed but am not running an equipment. I still want to be able to mess with my opponents' stuff (and particularly stuff that bothers me) so I'm running a Vindicate instead of a Deed. It answers pretty much literally any card that can possibly bother me (yes, yes, there's TTN, Progenitus, Emrakul, shush shush) where Deed sometimes can't. Its similar CMC also means it doesn't worsen my mana curve, which is nice.

Did you ever play Crop Rotation like you wanted to test?
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Marsh Flats

Those can be your cuts right there for
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Crop Rotation

If you own a second Tower you could try it out as well.

I bet Crop Rotation is strong with Vizier.

[Echelon]

Did you ever play Crop Rotation like you wanted to test?
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Marsh Flats

Those can be your cuts right there for
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Crop Rotation

If you own a second Tower you could try it out as well.

I bet Crop Rotation is strong with Vizier.

Never got to it.

Goddammit.

Can't cut a Marsh by the way - I'm already on just 21 land. Bog is a spell, not a land.

[Brael]

Never got to it.

Goddammit.

Can't cut a Marsh by the way - I'm already on just 21 land. Bog is a spell, not a land.

Bog is still a land, just not a T1 land. Marsh is the weakest of the fetches. Without the second Marsh Flats you would still have 13 sources of T1 black, which is enough. If you're looking for a spell to replace though, DRS #3 fills a similar role as mana+GY hate. But it's not as tutorable.

[Echelon]

Bog is still a land, just not a T1 land. Marsh is the weakest of the fetches. Without the second Marsh Flats you would still have 13 sources of T1 black, which is enough. If you're looking for a spell to replace though, DRS #3 fills a similar role as mana+GY hate. But it's not as tutorable.

Without Marsh I'm also down to 13 green sources, which is dangerously low.

But... Your craziness would put me on the following list:

Main:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Vizier of the Menagerie
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
2 Crop Rotation

4 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Duress
3 Lost Legacy

I'm going to have to sleep on this.

I've been running 2 P. Towers for a long time, by the way. I do like it. Just don't have the room to run 2 copies of it and Stronghold.

[Brael]

I'm looking at the new cards, thoughts on Doomfall?

2B Sorcery
Choose 1:
Target opponent exiles a creature
Target opponent reveals hand, you choose a non land card and exile it

[Dadadot]

too slow to expensive?

echolon:
could you elaborate on the role of the crop rotations in the list?

[tescrin]

I think this has a lot of potential here. This deck actually gets enough mana to make it good I think. I could see BUG-Fit becoming a weird Burn-deck with this. Using your loadsa removal/Therapy to drain their resources, and playing this at X=4 or 5, you probably just win. 3x damage multiplier is huge and I think a deck like this made to jam loads of mana can take advantage of either loadsa card advantage or damage. Even if your opponent opts to take 12 and you suffer CDA; you're probably 1-2 DRS activations from killing them at that point.

I think it plays really well with additional copies of itself too, since if you do do it twice in a row where your opp actually gets to choose they'll be both way behind on cards and way behind in a life race. I think there's a definite brew here.

[Echelon]

too slow to expensive?

echolon:
could you elaborate on the role of the crop rotations in the list?

Apart from a possibke T1 gy sweep vs. various decks?

Basically it's extra copies of Stronghold for when you have Courser/Vizier out. Also plays well w/ Tracker. Turn a land into a fetch into another land to filter 4 cards from your deck at the cost of a single card. Basically just enables just a bunch of value plays.

I still have to think it through some more, I'm not sold on it quite yet. For now I'm still leaning towards just swapping a Deed for a Vindicate.

As for the Torment thing - I fear it's too situational/win more. But I do hope to be proven wrong.

[Warden]

I think this has a lot of potential here. This deck actually gets enough mana to make it good I think. I could see BUG-Fit becoming a weird Burn-deck with this. Using your loadsa removal/Therapy to drain their resources, and playing this at X=4 or 5, you probably just win. 3x damage multiplier is huge and I think a deck like this made to jam loads of mana can take advantage of either loadsa card advantage or damage. Even if your opponent opts to take 12 and you suffer CDA; you're probably 1-2 DRS activations from killing them at that point.

I think it plays really well with additional copies of itself too, since if you do do it twice in a row where your opp actually gets to choose they'll be both way behind on cards and way behind in a life race. I think there's a definite brew here.

Against fair decks, this has potential. Against Delver I feel you're vulnerable to counters. Against combo (say, Storm) or something like Lands what is this thing doing? Storm goes off before this is relevant. Reanimator or Sneak won't have issues with this either. Lands doesn't give a shit about its hand. Feels win-more overall for matchups/strategies we should already trounce.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So I finally put a Bone Picker list (Pic Fit?) together. The only thing I want that I don't play (because I haven't picked one up yet) is a V's Stronghold.

1 Dryad Arbor
1 DRS
4 VE
1 Channeler Initiate
1 Steve
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 E. Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
4 Bone Picker
1 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

2 Lingering Souls
4 Cabal Therapy
3 GSZ
2 Evo Leap
2 Crop Rotation
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Toxic Deluge
3 PtE
1 Push
2 Deed

1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats

I have no board at this time as I'd like to continue on the main until I have it smoothed out. The Flats will become the Stronghold when I aquire it. Anything inherently incorrect, missing, or otherwise out of place? Any suggestions?

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