You can suggest that, but it's not going into the DTB like that. As an opening line of a primer that's fine, but as a DTB you want short, on point and easy to spot.Originally Posted by Tel'Lythari
May I suggest a title?
'Who Could Have Predicted? An Unexpected Miracle: The Return of the King'
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
Yup, it's definitely for the primer
Looking forward to Min's work, heh.
Very interesting Miracle's list UWB played by Gutbrod who ended the tournament 1/36 (and another Miracle UW - no red - at 2nd position).
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Predict
3 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Portent
3 Terminus
4 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
+
1 Containment Priest
1 Disenchant
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Zealous Persecution
This is a sort of Mentor Miracle in Bonanni's Lille style (4 Mentor + 3 Daze).
I like it and I want to test this approach.
In add to this, i add the list of the 2nd position (Miracle list too - very nice):
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Unexpectedly Absent
3 Counterspell
3 Predict
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Portent
3 Terminus
4 Ponder
3 Back to Basics
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
6 Island
+
2 Containment Priest
1 Disenchant
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Rest in Peace
2 Spell Pierce
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vendilion Clique
I didn't have time to finish it this past weekend, but I believe we are going to be DTB with the next monthly update, if I'm reading this correctly (could not be):
http://tcdecks.net/tierdecks.php?ani...&format=Legacy
I'll be working diligently to finish!
Do you think this was a metagame call, or is Gideon, Ally of Zendikar a viable main deck win condition alternative to Monastery Mentor and Entreat the Angels?
@Hrothgar: I piloted the UWB list you linked (not posting much anymore, but thought that's a good opportunity to chime in)
You're right with your assumption, atm I'm working together with Claudio on various "Dazeracles" builds.
We're thinking that these archetype allows to switch corners fast and much more efficiently than traditional miracles.
Daze is strong when unexpected goes well with the heavy CS theme, and is not bad when played around (and you might not have it). 4 Mentor allows to slam them much easier T3 as you still have enough wincons left and can win out of nowhere if he stays uncontested. The deck plays quite different than traditional Miracles, which I played since forever. I don't think this deck is better per se, but these configurations helps a lot against some traditionally much harder MUs (12 Post, Eldrazi, MUD, Stompy variants...).
Another aspect that I like is that it's faster than ist more controlly cousin, which helps a lot in big tournaments imo (even more against slower/ "worse" players you might face there).
We're still unsure on the exact numbers, or if we prefer an UWr configuration though.
The black splash makes various combo MUs postb. really good (boarding up to 12 cards).
Moreover the proactivity goes well with the gameplan of playing more aggressivly than before. Example given, this means boarding Inquisitions vs Grixis Delver etc. Please note that I still encourage to play that deck as a control deck, just pick your spots where you might have to change that playstyle.
@Kobal: I talked to the guy who placed 2nd (BtB Miracle list). He liked Gideon for being another wincon and immune to standarized removal spells. He played the deck for the first time though, and wasn't sure regarding the numbers. After we discussed a little he was thinking about incorporating some Mentors in his decklist as well!
I tried a similar approach right after the ban but with -1 cs -1portent +1 fluster +1 explosives. It was good but after I stopped playing the deck for some time I never got back to this build. I might give it another try as I really loved the daze version even before the ban. Are you happy with the black splash or you think it suits the "turn the corner" plan so much better that it's superior to the red one? Would like to hear more on this build as i like it alot@Hrothgar: I piloted the UWB list you linked (not posting much anymore, but thought that's a good opportunity to chime in)
You're right with your assumption, atm I'm working together with Claudio on various "Dazeracles" builds.
We're thinking that these archetype allows to switch corners fast and much more efficiently than traditional miracles.
Daze is strong when unexpected goes well with the heavy CS theme, and is not bad when played around (and you might not have it). 4 Mentor allows to slam them much easier T3 as you still have enough wincons left and can win out of nowhere if he stays uncontested. The deck plays quite different than traditional Miracles, which I played since forever. I don't think this deck is better per se, but these configurations helps a lot against some traditionally much harder MUs (12 Post, Eldrazi, MUD, Stompy variants...).
Another aspect that I like is that it's faster than ist more controlly cousin, which helps a lot in big tournaments imo (even more against slower/ "worse" players you might face there).
We're still unsure on the exact numbers, or if we prefer an UWr configuration though.
The black splash makes various combo MUs postb. really good (boarding up to 12 cards).
Moreover the proactivity goes well with the gameplan of playing more aggressivly than before. Example given, this means boarding Inquisitions vs Grixis Delver etc. Please note that I still encourage to play that deck as a control deck, just pick your spots where you might have to change that playstyle.
@Kobal: I talked to the guy who placed 2nd (BtB Miracle list). He liked Gideon for being another wincon and immune to standarized removal spells. He played the deck for the first time though, and wasn't sure regarding the numbers. After we discussed a little he was thinking about incorporating some Mentors in his decklist as well!
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Hi Zerzab, thanks for you post!
Very interesting for me and, I'm sure, for all the community.
In this days I've tried the deck and, this is my first feeling, he seems me more focused on play an aggressive and resilient creature-based gameplay. For sure we can play a turn 3 Mentor with no fear to lose an essential piece, and the opponent removal packaging seem too stressed out from this.
I'm sure about the different approach and about the "speed up" gives by this threats.
My feeling about the Combo matchups: in G1 UWB is maybe too weak than UWR with Flusterstorm/Clique...in G2, the lots of discards and the Snapcaster's synergy are simply STRONG.
Engineered Explosives in maindeck is good vs Chalice, but I feel the lack of Unexpectedly Absent or another removal for annoying permanent like equip or Ensnaring Bridge, Moon, other boring stuff. Moon Stompy is not easy.
In my other lists, I play 1 EE + 2 Disenchant (or Disenchant effect) in side, who is very very good with Snacaster Mage.
This night I have a legacy league in my town, I will test the deck.
Your'e welcome Hrothgar, happy that it's appreciated
So firstly to clarify, with red splash I was pointing to a different "Dazeracles" build, incorporating Blasts/ Moon/ Clasm instead of the black SB cards, not to the classic version.
I really can't say which splash is better currently unfortunately, as I'm/ we're still testing and building our opinion.
Yes Moon Stompy etc can be hard, fetching Basics and landing a fast thread Mentor/ Jace and protecting it is really important. Portent targetting opponents tends to be very strong in these MU's, too.
We were thinking about cutting the EE for the 4th Terminus, to help vs Grixis Delver mainly, and all those random TNN/ Leovold matches, where we might get manadork + 3 drop out of it. Finding that one off EE in the Chalice matchups in time is rather unlikely anyways, so we could adjust the SB accordingly and play towards a fast Mentor in said preboard matches.
@Drzed: For me the black splash is even more about proactivity. In control matchups I like to bring in the discards (atleast Thoughtseize). For example in the mirror against traditional miracles, discard is much stronger than before, due to "top-hide-best-card-shenaningans" being gone. Playing in that more proactive way allows us to use our mana more efficiently, because we can use discard instead of leaving REB mana open, we might never need. In the control matches I played so far, this strategy seemed to be promising. An often overseen point that goes along with that, is that this playstyle allows us to need less landdrops. Instead of needing CS mana + threat open (and playing out 6 and more lands), we can lead with discards/ protect with Daze and save our landdrops for lategame Brainsorms.
This is all very generalyzing ofc, but I guess you get the idea^^
Let me know how the deck performs for you guys!
Thanks I really like the tough process behind it. Before the ban storm was almost disappeared so the red splash was the go to splash as sneak n show was the best combo deck and it also helped the blue matchup. Now that we don t have the cb lock anymore im alot happier to have black as it is still good Vs SnS but much better against storm and relevant Vs non blue decks. It may be wrong but i really like the black splash in this meta as playing proactive is probably better as of now. Why are you playing more duals and less basic?Your'e welcome Hrothgar, happy that it's appreciated
So firstly to clarify, with red splash I was pointing to a different "Dazeracles" build, incorporating Blasts/ Moon/ Clasm instead of the black SB cards, not to the classic version.
I really can't say which splash is better currently unfortunately, as I'm/ we're still testing and building our opinion.
Yes Moon Stompy etc can be hard, fetching Basics and landing a fast thread Mentor/ Jace and protecting it is really important. Portent targetting opponents tends to be very strong in these MU's, too.
We were thinking about cutting the EE for the 4th Terminus, to help vs Grixis Delver mainly, and all those random TNN/ Leovold matches, where we might get manadork + 3 drop out of it. Finding that one off EE in the Chalice matchups in time is rather unlikely anyways, so we could adjust the SB accordingly and play towards a fast Mentor in said preboard matches.
@Drzed: For me the black splash is even more about proactivity. In control matchups I like to bring in the discards (atleast Thoughtseize). For example in the mirror against traditional miracles, discard is much stronger than before, due to "top-hide-best-card-shenaningans" being gone. Playing in that more proactive way allows us to use our mana more efficiently, because we can use discard instead of leaving REB mana open, we might never need. In the control matches I played so far, this strategy seemed to be promising. An often overseen point that goes along with that, is that this playstyle allows us to need less landdrops. Instead of needing CS mana + threat open (and playing out 6 and more lands), we can lead with discards/ protect with Daze and save our landdrops for lategame Brainsorms.
This is all very generalyzing ofc, but I guess you get the idea^^
Let me know how the deck performs for you guys!
I'm going to test the deck and report the results
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I like the concept of the UWB list, but the black splash and SB seems just a bit weird - too many cards for combo decks than I feel comfortable trimming cards MD for, but not enough for the problematic fair matchups like DnT, and no red blasts (or really the lack of ways to get rid of any resolved walker, does mentor on its own do that consistently enough?)
But the MD goal is great - land a t3 mentor, and then have daze and/or FoW backup and it's an incredible T3. I'm just wondering if there's somewhere to meet in the middle with the more control-y shells.
I guess my post kinda got lost as it was the last on the page (last page) and someone posted almost immediately after, so I hope you don't mind if I just repost it, but I would really appreciate some insight on how to correctly build a board for my meta and successfully implement in games (what to take out).
The current DTB cutoff for June is 132.756, and Miracles is at 133.
All depends on if any more June results trickle in. Razor's edge.
Is there a new Primer being written? Putting this in DTB with a completely irrelevant first post seems.. bad.
Working on it.
Can I suggest calling the new list UWr Prophet? Or some variant? After all, we're predicting miracles...
For what it's worth, I vote that this be somewhere in the primer. Great Title!May I suggest a title?
'Who Could Have Predicted? An Unexpected Miracle: The Return of the King'
Lands, Eldrazi and MUD are all preboard unfavourable match ups and you definitely need some land hate if you want to even the chances. Blood Moon or Back to Basics are the most common choices, but you can try more exotic variants like Ruination or From the Ashes (which is just better). Speaking about your sideboard I'd probably cut BEB and Chill for those cards since there is no pure Burn decks in your meta.
Food Chain is just terrible, I think there is little we can do about it. I find that match hardly winnable because of recurring creatures with combo-out and personally would be thankful for any insight.
UR Delver match up though never seemed that hard to me, what problems exactly do you encounter? if it's more burn stuff then you might think about adding Leylines to the sideboard, though it is a narrow card, which can be useful in fighting specific decks (Storm and Burn mostly).
Speaking about siding techs there was a guide by Whitefaces not long ago in this thread, try to look several pages back to find it.
For what it's worth, I vote that this be somewhere in the primer. Great Title!
Does anyone have a current list thats relative middle of the road and performing well for them? It seems like theres a lot of flux about the lists and I'm looking for something somewhat "baseline" to start working from (I havent played miracles previously but I'm super interested in the new lists)
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