All B/R update speculation.

[Megadeus]

Those cards being banned are part of why modern is miserable, though. I don't play vintage, so I can't really speak to that.

There's a whole lot of reasons why modern sucks. Cards that would make the format 50% blue are not the reason

[Dice_Box]

Lantern Control exists, Modern is great. Playing a deck that basically reads "You get to draw zero cards of relevance and you can't attack me"... Bliss.

In other news, Prison decks make Dice happy.

[Ace/Homebrew]

There's a whole lot of reasons why modern sucks.

Modern is actually in a pretty good place right now. Anyone hating on it is likely either:

- Still bitter about their deck being banned
- Hating on the format just cause

I'm not saying either of those positions are unjustified, just that the format is pretty enjoyable right now.

[btm10]

Modern is actually in a pretty good place right now. Anyone hating on it is likely either:

- Still bitter about their deck being banned
- Hating on the format just cause

I'm not saying either of those positions are unjustified, just that the format is pretty enjoyable right now.

Agree. The rise of Death's Shadow as Modern's version of Delver has really solved a big part of Modern's problem with linear, non-interactive decks being too good.

[taconaut]

Modern is actually in a pretty good place right now. Anyone hating on it is likely either:

- Still bitter about their deck being banned
- Hating on the format just cause

I'm not saying either of those positions are unjustified, just that the format is pretty enjoyable right now.

I respect that perspective, and there's certainly some of both for me, but I do honestly feel that they just banned the soul out of that format. It had a lot of unique decks like Twin/Pod/UR Storm/Bloom/Eggs/etc that you couldn't play anywhere else and that had many lines/interesting interactions unique to modern, and they just kinda got rid of them all.

That's why I really am sad about modern: it USED to be awesome!

I don't think Modern would necessarily be 50% blue if people were allowed to (*gasp*) scry 2 before drawing a card (the HUMANITY). I get that Ponder and Brainstorm is real strong, but it's just selection, I never get the hate. Like, for my money, ever having to look at a chalice or trinisphere or thorn, or even just play against burn, is a thousand times more miserable than my opponent actually getting to play his deck as planned instead of constantly being at the mercy of topdecks.

[rufus]

I respect that perspective, and there's certainly some of both for me, but I do honestly feel that they just banned the soul out of that format. It had a lot of unique decks like Twin/Pod/UR Storm/Bloom/Eggs/etc that you couldn't play anywhere else and that had many lines/interesting interactions unique to modern, and they just kinda got rid of them all.

That's why I really am sad about modern: it USED to be awesome!
...

I think that's deliberate. Can't have a midrange-heavy format if everyone is playing zany stuff.

[Kanti]

I respect that perspective, and there's certainly some of both for me, but I do honestly feel that they just banned the soul out of that format. It had a lot of unique decks like Twin/Pod/UR Storm/Bloom/Eggs/etc that you couldn't play anywhere else and that had many lines/interesting interactions unique to modern, and they just kinda got rid of them all.

That's why I really am sad about modern: it USED to be awesome!

I don't think Modern would necessarily be 50% blue if people were allowed to (*gasp*) scry 2 before drawing a card (the HUMANITY). I get that Ponder and Brainstorm is real strong, but it's just selection, I never get the hate. Like, for my money, ever having to look at a chalice or trinisphere or thorn, or even just play against burn, is a thousand times more miserable than my opponent actually getting to play his deck as planned instead of constantly being at the mercy of topdecks.

Go play with Opt or Peek for a while, and report back.

[taconaut]

Go play with Opt or Peek for a while, and report back.

I'm not sure I follow - do you mean, "these cards are much worse than Preordain, demonstrating that Preordain is busted?"

I agree those cards aren't very good, but I'm not convinced they show that Probe and Preordain are broken. I think both are very powerful, for sure; what surprises me aren't the claims about their power level, but how much some players hate cantrips in general. They just seem so innocuous to me from a gameplay perspective.

[Megadeus]

The best ones provide a level of consistency that is far and away better than anything else. Brainstorm And Ponder being something like 75% of the format is proof to the power level, and over a long 15 round GP it becomes very clear that the consistency provided by the cards makes it so you are essentially intentionally crippling yourself by choosing to not play with these cards. Besides that, when the format is so ingrained where everyone is running these cards it promotes play patterns that over time make every game the same, over and over and make games incredibly stale

[hymnyou]

Modern is actually in a pretty good place right now. Anyone hating on it is likely either:

- Still bitter about their deck being banned
- Hating on the format just cause

I'm not saying either of those positions are unjustified, just that the format is pretty enjoyable right now.

Meh. I hate modern because you cant play real cards and the player base is near unbearable.

[btm10]

The best ones provide a level of consistency that is far and away better than anything else. Brainstorm And Ponder being something like 75% of the format is proof to the power level, and over a long 15 round GP it becomes very clear that the consistency provided by the cards makes it so you are essentially intentionally crippling yourself by choosing to not play with these cards. Besides that, when the format is so ingrained where everyone is running these cards it promotes play patterns that over time make every game the same, over and over and make games incredibly stale

Were they banned from Legacy I think the format would have a similar level of decks running blue duals as the foundations of their manabase. It's not like the police cards (Wasteland and Force) are going anywhere, and unless Entomb and LED are banned there will always be a strong incentive to sleeve up the format's most flexible answers. How deep do you want to go on increasing the variance in the format? Should Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand be banned? Probe? Street Wraith? Portent? Impulse?

[taconaut]

The best ones provide a level of consistency that is far and away better than anything else. Brainstorm And Ponder being something like 75% of the format is proof to the power level, and over a long 15 round GP it becomes very clear that the consistency provided by the cards makes it so you are essentially intentionally crippling yourself by choosing to not play with these cards. Besides that, when the format is so ingrained where everyone is running these cards it promotes play patterns that over time make every game the same, over and over and make games incredibly stale

I can't really argue with the first half; I think the results bear out what you're saying in terms of top 8 penetration, and honestly, brainstorm and ponder are very powerful Magic cards.

The bolded part is the one that always seems weird to me, because it's one of two things:

1. Every game is the same, in that I have to see Brainstorm every round.

2. Every game against a particular deck is the same, because they can always find the cards they need.

For 1, I'm in the camp that feels like ANT, Miracles (RIP top), Grixis Delver, and Show and Tell are all wildly different decks, despite sharing a core engine that is obviously very powerful. The textures of these games are significantly different, and while they all employ similar consistency tools, losing to ANT feels very different than losing to Miracles. If the problem here is, "it doesn't matter what else they're doing, I just can't stand it when my opponent gets the best card out of the top three on his library instead of playing something else," then I feel like that argument is mostly preference-based and not banworthy (I would love it if all the hatebears and miserable artifacts were banned tomorrow, but I also know that some people like playing them, and ultimately my preference does not make them reasonable bans. I do acknowledge there is some level of power disparity between, say, brainstorm and any hate piece, but that's a better argument in my opinion.)

If it's 2, then do you find other approaches to improve consistency more palatable? Why don't Green Sun's Zenith/Life From the Loam/Various Tutors/Redundancy (think Burn or Eldrazi where multiple pieces are interchangeable) bother people the way cantrips do? Is it because they're not blue? What's wrong with blue? Again, if the real issue is power level (because brainstorm is very powerful) it seems strange to make it about color or staleness. Also, I believe you also have argued that fetches are pretty lame in the past, which suggests to me that your outlook is internally consistent, so it's possible you DO also hate things like tutors, I don't want to put words in your mouth.

All that being said, I feel like, as a player who enjoys engine combo and interesting interactions that sometimes require consistency engines to get off the ground, why does everybody hate us? Vintage is too expensive, modern bans interactions that are interesting and powerful, standard is...standard, why can't legacy be a place where it's possible to have a little control over your topdecks?

[Megadeus]

I don't mind things like green Sun, loam, entomb and such as consistency engines because they require you to build around them. Ponder and brainstorm just need you to play blue and fetch lands. I mean green has a ponder that can get creatures, lands, and planeswalkers (oath of nissa), and it's completely unplayable. And another issue with them is that as long as they are by far the best consistency engine in the format, they restrict what is one of the best parts about this game, which is the deck building process. When the deck building process begins automatically with 4 brainstorm, 4 ponder, and 8 blue fetches, it becomes incredibly boring.

[Dice_Box]

I don't like to get involved in Brainstorm conversations, but I would like to talk about something. There are a lot of decks that feel the same game after game. Playing against Lands, I will basically do the same thing every preboard game, and the change in a set way post. Gamble, Loam, Wasteland, Crop Rotation, your going to face the same cards played in more or less the same order.

Yes, I think the format would be better without the card but we must give it its fair dues. While Brainstorm has many issues, the current stated one is not unique to it alone.

[tescrin]

I think Ponder is way more consistent than Brainstorm. If you don't have a pair of lands in your opener, Brainstorm almost requires a mulligan or brass balls to hope your draw + BS doesn't brainlock you into a loss.

By contrast, a 1-lander with Ponder is eminently keepable, with 5 chances by your untap step to draw a land (which in a 20 land deck, is ~90%.) That is consistency. Similar can be said with dudes if you run that many dudes, yadda yadda.

Brainstorm is *more powerful*, but it is not very consistent IMO/IME; and it doesn't provide lots of consistency. It is often somewhere in the "meh.." range of power level, but when it hits that shuffle and swaps your flood for gas; it's certainly insane. Still, due to brainlocks it doesn't up your consistency IMO by that much; because a lot of the time you can't actually fetch away the garbage, you're trading current draws for future draws.

Again, if you want to hit consistency, Ponder is the card to hit. Ponder is a 90% chance to keep unkeepable hands, a 70-90% chance to find a threat, etc (depends how many you run) Numbers like that are way better, and because of the shuffle, the price of failure is just drawing a new card, not being locked into your unkeepable hand for the rest of the game.

[Lormador]

Lantern Control exists, Modern is great. Playing a deck that basically reads "You get to draw zero cards of relevance and you can't attack me"... Bliss.

In other news, Prison decks make Dice happy.

Yeah it's hilarious, this deck that is utterly unbearable to play against is what makes modern bearable as a whole. As long as Lantern is real I'll play the format.

[Megadeus]

I think Ponder is way more consistent than Brainstorm. If you don't have a pair of lands in your opener, Brainstorm almost requires a mulligan or brass balls to hope your draw + BS doesn't brainlock you into a loss.

By contrast, a 1-lander with Ponder is eminently keepable, with 5 chances by your untap step to draw a land (which in a 20 land deck, is ~90%.) That is consistency. Similar can be said with dudes if you run that many dudes, yadda yadda.

Brainstorm is *more powerful*, but it is not very consistent IMO/IME; and it doesn't provide lots of consistency. It is often somewhere in the "meh.." range of power level, but when it hits that shuffle and swaps your flood for gas; it's certainly insane. Still, due to brainlocks it doesn't up your consistency IMO by that much; because a lot of the time you can't actually fetch away the garbage, you're trading current draws for future draws.

Again, if you want to hit consistency, Ponder is the card to hit. Ponder is a 90% chance to keep unkeepable hands, a 70-90% chance to find a threat, etc (depends how many you run) Numbers like that are way better, and because of the shuffle, the price of failure is just drawing a new card, not being locked into your unkeepable hand for the rest of the game.

Brainstorm is still very consistent as long as your deck is built properly. A 1 land hand is a risky keep either way be it ponder or brainstorm. But one card allows you to put back chaff and swap useless in the match up cards and the other doesn't. One allows you to run and set up 6 mana wraths and reduces their cost by 5. One allows you to get away with playing main deck red blasts and put them back when you're playing against green decks.

[Crimhead]

I'm in the camp that feels like ANT, Miracles (RIP top), Grixis Delver, and Show and Tell are all wildly different decks, despite sharing a core engine that is obviously very powerful. The textures of these games are significantly different, and while they all employ similar consistency tools, losing to ANT feels very different than losing to Miracles.

It's important that we consider these to be a single deck. If we view Brainstorm penetration as being spread out over several decks, the meta would look healthy and diverse.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Yeah it's hilarious, this deck that is utterly unbearable to play against is what makes modern bearable as a whole. As long as Lantern is real I'll play the format.

Crazy how many people cannot wrap their heads around dying to a bunch of mill rocks and an ensnaring bridge. People just need to learn when they are actually dead and then it can be a fun and interesting deck to play against.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

See that's the beauty about decks like that, people think they a chance while you get to sit there with sadistic glee and watch them succumb to the stippling realization they've lost.