I have to question this. First of all, the three drop often doesn't live long in this deck (or else, we win), and the deck runs no draw what so ever, so how on earh are you stacking these Slivers with any consistency?Originally Posted by Drkdstryer
Secondly, if you're in a position where you DON'T want your three drop to attack, then you're probably losing the game horribly. This deck is hyper aggresive, even more so than FS and wants to be played that way. Generally, you drop your Cyclops turn 1 or 2, and follow him up with a quake, fattie, or Jitte and equip. Under all three of those scenarios, you would want your 3 drop attacking.
The downfall of 3/2's is that they die to a lot more than 3/3's. Things like our own quakes, Magma Jets, Fire/Ice, Confidant, Mage, Warchief (None of these are good trades as we run about 5000 answers to them maindeck) double Fanatics (or single if you block or are blocked) and smaller Incinerators, lackey + Mogg, Lackey plus Incinerator and on and on.
Trust me when I say that we tested nearly ALL possible alternatives and it came to this: The three drops main purpose is to LIVE long enough to get a Jitte on it while applying solid pressure. Cyclops fits this bill much better than any other Red 2R drop.
@Char: I think we tested it before we added Pillar mainboard and found it kinda meh. It might deserve some testing now, but what are you going to drop? You can't drop creatures or you'll start losing to control and ag/con, but you can't drop any of the spells cause their just too awesome.
@ Mystic Enforcer: Almost any aggro deck has trouble with Enforcer preboard. Luckily, we have more outs than most. We have Chalice to end the game before it starts, we have Jitte to stick on anything except Squee and we'll outclass Enforcer six days a week and twice on Sunday, we have Pillar which will bleed Thresh to the point where it can't dig for Enforcer or can't attack with it, we have Razormane, which will attack into an Enforcer readily, and we have the oft overlooked 6 point Rolling earthquake.
Postboard, we get an insane slew of anti Thresh cards to choose from including the always solid Crypt, Smash for needles and card advantage, and the just nasty Blood Moon, which is game vs. White Thresh as they NEVER see it coming and run a whopping 4 basics (remember that their fetches become mountains too). Let's see Enforcer try to make it though when Thresh has to draw their one plains and their one forest.
I hate to raise the dead, but there is a new card called Simian Spirit Guide that would fit the 3cc creature slot quite nicely. It's basically an Elvish spirit guide but red. What you guys think about that card choice? Seems pretty nasty to me.
I would have to say it seems perfect. While it cant trade with 'geese like its predecessors in that slot, instead it just accelerates you into stuff that CAN block the goose (and survive!). It has the requisite Jitte carrying capacity. And, while relatively minor, Simian Spirit Guide can block, unlike Hulking Ogre. So, my response to SSG in relation to Dragon Stompy is "Yay!"
Referring to the art on Stasis:
Ja, SSGs certainly fit in Dragon Stompy. However, they are in the place of Seething Songs, not the 3cc creatures.
As the leave of Songs, Dragons should be replaced, by Avalanche Rider, Arc Slogger, maybe by the red Akroma, or red Morphling?
On the Sep 2011 Ban List Updates,
I disagree. While SSG is a solid, solid contender (My Green version of this deck ran ESG), it by no means replaces Seething Song, which can drop Sloggers/Razormanes on turn 1-2. SSG will pick up a couple of slots, but Seething Song not being present in this deck is a mistake.
EDIT: (Clip. I shouldn't post or design decks while sleepy.)
I'm working on a new list. Phantom, if you still follow this thread, I'd like your input.
I'm trying a somewhat modified version of DragonStompy. This is very raw and the draws are sometimes sketchy, but when it works it's amazing.
8 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Flametongue Kavu
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Arc-Slogger
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Tangle Wire
SB:
3 Shattering Spree
4 Boil
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Blood Moon
Empty the Warrens is huge against counters. Tangle Wire also has amazing synergy with EtW and Jitte, often being a multiple Time Walk. Or maybe Trinisphere?
I've always liked Urza's Blueprint as additional draw. I've always played the card in my 4 Ancient Tomb/ 4 City of Traitors Stompy-like decks.
You know, Empty the Warrens is a fantastic idea in this deck, except for the fact that you lose out on Rolling Earthquake / Pyroclasm.
I'm not sure about Rite of Flame, though. It's dead once you Chalice for 1, and even though it ups your chances of hitting a Chalice for 1, it's ehh. I'd rather run the extra mountain or two. And again, Razormane with or without Squee has proven so strong he's worth at least part of Slogger's slots (Remember, he can be dropped turn 2 with Tomb/City/Mox whereas Slogger cannot, and he circumvents Pro-red). I also think you give up a lot by not running either Pyroclasm or Rolling Earthquake.
Tangle Wire's also an excellent choice. I love the synergy between Wire and Warrens.
Urza's Blueprint is really good with Razormane Masticore. It could even replace Squee's slot. I've tested Urza's Blueprint in various stompy decks and it's a complete house.
I don't know if I should make a new thread. Maybe I'd get a price for the 1000th Tomb/Chalice based deck.
I always thought that Equipment is not the right thing for this deck because your threats are big enough even without it. So I tried to play as much fat as possible, but couldn't come up with enough quality. PC changed that now. It gives Simian Spirit Guide and Reckless Wurm that is ok on its own and crazy with Maticore(s). Furthermore it adds Pyrohemia, which should be crazy good against every other creature based Aggro. Right noiw it is only in the Sideboard because Empty the Warrens is even better.
SevEncore
Basic Lands
10 [MM] Mountain
// Fast Mana
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [PCS] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [9E] Seething Song
// Heavy threats
4 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [PCS] Reckless Wurm
4 [UD] Masticore
3 [FD] Razormane Masticore
4 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
// Other
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PCS] Pyrohemia
SB: 3 [PS] Flametongue Kavu
SB: 4 [CH] Blood Moon
SB: 4 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar
Kavu is only Sideboard because
I don't think I love the idea of 8 Masticores, but I do like the general direction you've gone with this. It's an interesting alternative, trying it with just the massive hordes of face-crushers. That gives it a little more of a focused feel.
I think I would try to rework the FTK's back into this list, though.
The problem with Masticore itself is that half the time your mana on the board is Ancient Tomb, meaning it's really difficult to afford continuously reusing it. Razormane comes out with Seething Song, doesn't tie up your mana, is bigger, etc.
Pyrohemia is an interesting idea though. How's that been working for you? Better than Pyroclasm or Rolling Earthquake?
I've been thinking about this deck lately, especially because we can reliably drop Chalice@2 against those Flash decks. Also, we demolish Goblins, and with some changes we can even better our control matchup. Here's what I was thinking:
Mana
10 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song
Disruption
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Magus of the Moon
Beats
3 Arc-Slogger
3 Razormane Masticore
3 Flametongue Kavu
4 Sulfur Elemental
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Trinisphere is great against low curved decks, especially when combined with Chalice. I consider it better than Tangle Wire mostly because Wire sometimes screws me over, and 3sphere doesn't even touch me.
Magus is awesome. MD Blood Moon that carries a Sword/Jitte and fixes City/Tomb after you don't need them anymore. Fits right into the 3cc slot.
Sulfur Elemental is also pretty good. Can't be countered, is unexpected, and the best part - he screws with combo. The +1 can be problematic.
What do you think?
I've been playing and reworking this deck for months straight now and was getting close to tossing my list to Phantom for evaluation when Hulk Flash came along and ruined everything. I will tell you what we've come up with though.
1. Trinisphere sucks. No, seriously. It was bad pre-Flash and it's even worse post-Flash.
2. Simian Spirit Guide also sucks. Not kidding. Mox, Tomb, and Seething Song are all you need.
3. We do like Magus of the Moon. This is an obvious include. We don't know if we like him maindeck or not yet, due to the fact that we are (And you should be) running either Pyroclasm or Rolling Earthquake.
4. You should have Rakdos Pit Dragon in the deck.
5. There's a pretty good chance we'll also be recommending Gathan Raiders in the deck.
6. It loses to Hulk Flash and there's not much you can do about it.
Wow, that blows. I have been working on a very similar deck and had no idea this thread existed, though I may have been original there. Anyway, I will throw in my two cents.
I love having 4 arc-slogger. That guy is a house and always great to draw since the first one will almost always get sworded or counterspelled. On the first turn he is a game win all in his own usually.
Magus of the moon. I have been playing with 2 of him maindecked and have never regretted it (not yet anyway). He works against every deck out there (spare solidarity) and in the late game even saves you from your own ancient tombs, and when totally useless he is simply mox fodder.
I like the spirit guide. I will say he is a metagame call since he can really blow, but he helps you explode and lets you out bluff daze players (which i think is underrated with this deck). I am not saying I will always keep him in the deck, but I like the tricks that he is involved in.
I have been really considering that dragon. How has he been working out? Right now I am testing 2 Torchlings and those guys perform very well since they can take out pretty much every creature in the meta.
I don't really like the raiders. i think there are better things to put in his place.
I have been trying two maindecked fortune theifs which have eitehr performed as "meh" or game winners. A lot of decks can't really handle an equiped thief and just with the tempo and raw power of the deck he makes a game win a lot easier.
Trinisphere does blow
I have found a way that gave me positive performances against flash, but I don't really think it's worth it. It's 4 pyroblasts and 4 REB in the SB and the goal is to just set chalice at 2. The guides are key since they let you win the wars, but again, don't know if it's really worth it.
How do you guys handle top deck consistency? this deck is very hit or miss with it's topdecks. I have curbed the problem with 4 MD magma jets, but I do think uppint the SOFI count would be better.
I have been hitting a crossroads with this deck. It has the potential to be techy, but also just backbreaking with it's topdecks. Are you guys just going for the raw power or what? I think this deck has the chance to do some pretty incredible things. I am going to start testing a lone Red Akroma in the deck to make them worry about all my morphs and since I ahve encountered the morph mana way more than I earlier suspected. That and she is pretty much a game when she flips (though not as good as the real akroma)
Why not replace the Bloodrock Cyclops with Bloodscale Prowler or Fault Riders or Sulfur Elemental>?
“Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
Nice deck you have going here, and it seems like it has benefited some from Planar Chaos and Future Sight.
I was looking over the Future Sight cards, and came across Gathan Raiders. The discard-part of morphing might be too severe, but if it can be supported it is a 3/3 for 3, that becomes 5/5 if you happen to have no cards in hand.
As a minor benefit it will allow you to cast Flametongue Kavu against creatureless opponents if the Kavu is the last card in your hand.
Here is a smiliar version of this deck. The deck does not play any Dragons anymore so I think that "Empty the Slogger" is a better name for the deck.
http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=8192
I played this deck together with a friend (we used exactly the same list) in a small German online tourney. We could finish 1st and 2nd and the deck is quite strong:
http://www.germagic.de/dc/list.php?t...&format=Legacy
Empty the Warrens is absolutely amazing. It usually produces 4 tokens as Equipment carriers or more Tokens that just win the game alone.
I like Berzerked's list and I agree that the Moon Magus is nuts. If is a safe 4-of and beats many decks by itself. It is one of the best cards this deck could dream of. Here is my version with Future Sight:
// Lands
10 [TSP] Mountain (1)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
// Creatures
4 [PCS] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [PC] Sulfur Elemental
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
2 [PS] Flametongue Kavu
// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [9E] Seething Song
3 [TSP] Rift Bolt (goes around Chalice 1 and helps Empty the Warrens)
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 2 [B] Winter Orb
SB: 2 [8E] Boil
SB: 2 [UD] Powder Keg
Unfortunately there is no way that this deck beats Hulk Flash so we have to wait until Hulk Flash gets the cut before playing it again.
Depending on the amount of White creatures and/or the amount of Slivers in your metagame, Blade Sliver might be better than Sulfur Elemental.
First of all, if you're posting these janky Empty-The-Warrens lists on here, keep something in mind. Dragon Stompy was built to crush two things: Aggro, and Combo. Pre-Hulk Flash, my Dragon Stompy build considered Goblins and all combo decks a walkover. (Well, maybe not like, Aluren, but most combo decks.)
Empty the Warrens sucks in this deck. It might be decent against control, but if you're facing a lot of control, you shouldn't be playing Dragon Stompy. You aren't Belcher, you aren't Epic Storm. In a perfect world you might pull it off for eight tokens, but more often you'll do it for four to six, and at the expense of denying yourself the red board-sweepers like Pyroclasm, Rolling Earthquake, or even Pyrohemia that make the deck as strong against aggro as it is. You people are aware, also, that Simian Spirit Guide doesn't work with the Warrens at all? Simian Spirit Guide isn't a metagame call. It just sucks.
Back to the point of crushing aggro and combo: This deck with a mere four Chalices will not crush combo. This deck without Rolling Earthquake, Pyroclasm, or some similar sweeper will not crush all aggro.
Sword of Fire and Ice sucks too, although it looks awesome on paper and I admit to having tried it for a good while. It's bad because your best creatures in this deck are Razormane Masticore and Arc-Slogger, which are both on your 5-mana curve. Jitte curves out far more optimally. You don't want to overload this deck with equipment because, unlike Faerie Stompy, you have no Force of Wills to occasionally defend your creatures long enough to make a game-shifting hit.
And by the way, as for Razormane/Slogger, if you don't listen to me on any other point ever about my own deck, listen to me on this one: You shouldn't be playing four of either one and none of the other. It's a mistake. I promise. I tried it all three ways for more hours each than anyone not named Phantom has probably played the deck period. I used to advocate only Razormane, cause he's sexy and bladed and has first strike which makes me want to hug him ('cept he'd cut me, sigh, I love you Razormane, but I digress), but after more several-hour testing sessions than you'd believe, some combination of the two usually proves optimal. You can argue the merits of Razormane (Bigger, swings through every creature in Legacy, kills Silver Knights, etc) and you can argue the merits of Slogger (Imprints on a Mox in early hands, can shoot off multiple small guys, shoots to the head). But the simple fact is they both rock in certain circumstances, and while this may be, having two of either one on the board is too expensive to handle, while having one of each is amazing. Run 1-and-2 or 2-and-2 or 3-and-2 depending on how many slots you're giving them.
Rakdos Pit Dragon's exclusion baffles me. He should always be in this deck. Always. He's an auto-four of. He evades, he pumps, and he double-strikes, giving you a way to deal that finishing blow short of the Rolling Earthquake, an out to pump your excess mana into, and a way to crush every creature that gets in its way. Oh, and did I mention that I've pulled off over 20 turn-2 kills with Rakdos Pit Dragon? It's not a common occurrence by any means, but it's pretty fucking awesome when it works.
I'm just getting around to testing Sulfur Elemental. Phantom likes it, though, and that's good enough for me to say it deserves Bloodrock Cyclops's old slot. A point one of my teammates made was that it actually allows Flametongue Kavu to kill Exalted Angel, which is pretty freaking cool.
No offense, but the Germans and the Russians have been putting up a lot of results with their red based aggro-prison builds for awhile, and dismissing their achievements out of hand, when Dragon Stompy has never put up any results, is unwarranted.
Edit: I just noticed the list he posted is in fact horrible, and that is not the list that Germans have posted on their site if you want to check his references.
Simian Spirit Guide is awful? Simian Spirit Guide is responsible for resolving either Magus of the Moon or Blood Moon at a 50% rate on turn one, Chalice of the Void for one at a 37% rate on turn one, Pyrostatic Pillar at a 32% rate on turn one, a Seething Song and a 5cc creature at a 23% rate on turn one and protecting the deck against Daze and Goblin Lackey. Simian Spirit Guide is awesome.
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