Yeah. I got caught up in the excitement of integrating scam into Dressnought that I overlooked how much worse the interaction is compared to scam. Losing a discard is huge and just makes it no where near as powerful. That plus all the cuts needed to up the black count to enable Grief and it just doesnt seem worth it.Originally Posted by FTW
I prefer the nonGrief lists below to a Grief build. They are just better and more consistent…
Bant Dressnought 2024
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dress Down
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Slip Out the Back
1 Lorien Revealed
1 Daze
3 Prismatic Ending
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
1 Doorkeeper Thrull/Brazen Borrower
3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Karakas
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Forest
BUG Dressnought 2024
3 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dress Down
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Slip Out the Back
1 Daze
1 Witherbloom Command
1 Lorien Revealed
1 Shelodred’s Edict
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
3 Orcish Bowmasters
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Forest
//Sideboard:
3 Hydroblast
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Veil of Summer
2 Force of Vigor
1 Pick Your Poison
1 Fatal Push
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Force of Negation
Yeah the non-Grief build looks better. Otherwise both strategies are too diluted to be good.
For the Bant deck, OK, there's space to try 1 Thrull main in a flex slot and see how well it disrupts the opponent. That Daze or 1 Slip is probably better as a 2nd Lorien or a Force of Negation though. But such a small change will have a negligible impact on results over a few Leagues, so there's no harm in keeping the spice slot if you enjoy it and it throws off local players into misplaying lines.
3c syndrome held together by duals where all the survival is on a 3rd color that does nothing other than cast kills spells, does not lend itself to total mana progression. The lack of proactive 1 mana plays is glaring here, and 2 mana stuff isn't much better if you don't have Nought + Dress Down. Tapping out of Stifle is suspect, and playing into Bowmasters to turn on shaky mana is all a bad clustering of gameplans. Then all the CA is on 3 mana, with recursion needing UUGG...
More specifically there is literally no way to win without ramming into the removal-based magic wall. Remember that having kill spells does not speed up this plan, nor does it leave space for a different wincon.But with only 9 creatures in the deck, you often won't have a threat to protect.
Concerning enabler : Dreadnought ratio, you should be around 1.5 to 2 per copy of Dreadnought (otherwise hand will do nothing). Mycosynth does not count as an enabler, and should not be used this way except as a salvage line.
^these clusters of findings run together: a mana system [cantrip cartel, too few lands, too many colors/colorpips] that doesn't really work in a self 2-for-1 deck, lack of wincon diversity, and overloading enablers. The next place thought processes like this go is very reminiscent of modern deck design: do the thing harder, have more big dudes and more enablers. Then adding removal that doesn't advance the gameplan, or unlock an alternate wincon, just hard locks the deck into its construction flaws. Once you're to this point you need to see an overwhelming amount of a good matchup to post results (while picking up a lot of bad to unwinnable matchups, that you're somehow avoiding).
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The black color set hasn't been a good secondary color since DRS got banned. It's offers nothing to the strategy (because Qarsi High Priest and Sultai Emissary just aren't good enough, and Dreadnought does not share tech with Shadow). This is where someone comes in and talks about how great Thoughtseize is, completely forgetting that winning more against combo decks you already crush leads to loss of Stifle subgame leading to increased total bad matchups. It's a trap color. If you want to do stuff with black and Grief you play Shadow or Reanimator or Scam (until Grief gets banned).
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White as the secondary color has enough synergies to play non-wincon removal (i.e. not Bolt) through the Karn/Teferi/Scroll cluster, but you need to stay almost entirely off dual lands and their inevitable losses to Wasteland. Your mana must progress.
Trying to be aggressive with white doesn't work with Plow giving life and not having 1 drops; same issue with 3c UG-centric builds. You'd also be picking up losses to combo decks that ignore white spot removal.
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You have Dress Down and a reason to play 4x in Stiflenought decks like these. Dress Down can deny hostile Bowmaster trigger and also the passive (which is important b/c your mana is really bad unless you can offensively spam cantrips). Stop worrying about cards and matchups you have the answer to. Get the CA off green. Stick to UR or UW.
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In terms of new cards UR got DRC then Saga then Mycosynth and now Pyrotechnic Performer (which may or may not work). UW hasn't gotten any new unique tools in a long time. Both can use Lorien effectively. If you want to get creative:
Kind of a no-brainer with manlands, but this is a play Standstill card...and ofc UR got more than UW with Restless Spire. Just straight-up unkillable manlands.
That quote asked about a 2-color UW manabase I proposed earlier, which you had replied to and critiqued. This reply has 0 words on why that mana is sketchy.
I appreciate you're quoting now, but you've taken to intentionally quoting out-of-context to construct false arguments to shoot down. Uthden Troll tribal is not viable on a competitive Legacy forum.
Of course 3c mana is weaker. But if Clark wants to play Dreadnought + Uro, a 3rd color is necessary. The discussion reduces to how to make that less bad among possible 3c UGx Dreadnought + Uro builds (need enough blue duals & blue fetches, Xerox, Lorien, and at least some basics). 3c may not be Tier 1, and it may perhaps be a lower Tier than 2c Dreadnought, but 3c has made enough MTGO results and Top 8s to show it is viable. Then it is worth discussing the most viable way to build 3c UGx. There are clearly players who want to play 3c, and it's capable of winning enough games.
So do you think Clark was on the right track then by ignoring kill spells? Redundant Slip Out the Back protects from removal.
There's no plan B, but perhaps Slip and Daze help Plan A (out-tempo removal) better than kill spells would.
Agree that Scam and Dreadnought are better separate. Posted a hypothetical list to show why they don't work well together. You have to water down both to make room. Better to play them separately.
In black, what about Stalactite Stalker? B for 2/2 menace. Keeps growing. Proactive 1-drop. Curves under Standstill. Grows through non-spell actions (fetch, Waste, Saga, cycle, channel land, Standstill pop). Can function as non-spell removal.
Other offerings from black: Bowmasters, Sauron's Ransom, Drown in the Loch, Sheoldred's Edict, Nihil Spellbomb. Most of these let you operate at instant speed, holding up Stifle, not tapping out sorcery speed.
Doesn't answer why the controlling UW direction (e.g. what I posted earlier) is not viable. Making tokens is to overload removal in the late game, not play aggro. I found that works well in Standstill. If they spend cards on 2/2 zombies, 2/2 manifest fetchlands, constructs, or Sharks then you're ahead. UW Dreadnought should be able to leverage the same.
Unkillable.. except combat. 2/1 non-evasive is on par with Ghitu Encampment, which was never Legacy playable. Dies to 1/3s lol.
Creeping Tar Pit on the other hand...
There's a lot of lists being put up, by multiple people. I'm talking about the 3c mana bases. Some examples:That quote asked about a 2-color UW manabase I proposed earlier, which you had replied to and critiqued. This reply has 0 words on why that mana is sketchy.
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Karakas
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
What I was not talking about was your 2c list from a few pages ago:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Tundra
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Otawara, Soaring City
2 Urza's Saga
1-2 other lands
This mana is better. With Lorien, we should probably be dropping Tundra to 1x and Dragon to 1x. 20-21 lands with 2 being Saga is pretty risky in UW when it shows up in the opening hand (UR is better at low mana plans). You don't want to be fighting hostile Saga with your Saga (they've got you beat on speed and construct size), you want that to be Wasteland. In that incomplete list, you don't have early CA to bridge to Lorien's Standstill mode. This need to get up to 3UU for CA, means you're going to have to use Dress Down to draw into/closer to your next lands - so it's not just that Saga kills itself, but you also have to choose between blowing up your constructs and unlocking your CA. Saga also makes it more difficult to play around FoV, and unlike UR you don't get to use delirium as compensation. Without access to credible creature threats like UR has, presenting Dreadnought off a Saga trigger has one of the highest fail rates in legacy (you didn't flush out removal).
I am talking about multiple posts, not just yours. The context of this entire thread, and the Stiflenought group across all platforms, is that the idea that a 1-for-1 cantrip construction in a deck that 2-for-1s itself should be borrowed from strategies that use mono-1-for-1s. On top of this, Stiflenought decks have this gameplan that operates almost exclusively at 3-4 mana while playing into Wasteland with too many duals. Then we go into the "if only I could do the thing harder" mindset, in a deck that is almost 1/2 lands + cantrip cartel.I appreciate you're quoting now, but you've taken to intentionally quoting out-of-context to construct false arguments to shoot down. Uthden Troll tribal is not viable on a competitive Legacy forum.
Then we get into the really weird stuff like this: "Scroll and Karn are decent but I actually do not feel Scroll is a legacy power level card. Creating a 2/2 a turn at the cost of a card is just too slow for Legacy and 3 mana is a lot to pay for such a meager payoff. And I feel that Karn at 4cc is just too expensive. I have lost as many games to mana flood as I have to mana screw so I do not think it is a good idea to play either 4cc spells like Karn and Greater Good and risk mana screw. And I also do not think its a good idea to play a high land count and risk mana flood." This is a fascinating viewpoint from a deck that has no plan below 3 mana, unless they have a Dress Down and 2x Noughts in hand. What are you losing to - mana flood or mana screw? But also, while we're talking about legacy power level things, I think having mana that only works with 1cmc spells and no plan against Chalice/Moon might be a problem. Like what's the grand plan here - hope to dodge Tomb and also dodge removal-based matchups rather than fix these matchups? Uro is a good card and all, but it doesn't fix these fundamental issues.
Outside of combo decks, legacy is almost entirely composed of Tomb nonsense, Delver, and a ton of removal-based decks. Delver and combo together are a much smaller fraction of legacy than Tomb and removal-based. When we talk about the removal-based fraction, it will be pretty common for them to run Bowmaster...and now we have to explain to them how Doorkeeper Thrull does not work against the Bowmaster passive - like you still can't cast cantrips, especially Brainstorm. Then you have to deal with Bowmaster + Dreadnought to navigate this bad mana misadventure vs hostile Bowmaster, even though black offers nothing worthwhile to Dreadnought...the bad ideas just don't stop. I think my favorite is how we're gonna make summoning sick dudes at sorcery speed, pass the turn, and protect them with Daze.
^These are the types of broad concepts I'm talking about, which are more complex than Uthden Troll tribal not working. Having a deck that attacks on no other axis than playing into removal needs a lot more removal targets (that are worth removing - people aren't going to die to a Torpor Magus unless they're using exactly Thassa)
Uro is an example of solving the CA requirement of Dreadnought incorrectly. This specific solution creates a lot more problems (speed, mana security, vulnerability to the most common SB trope in legacy - GY hate) and you're heavy in UG - a color set which cannot solve those problems. Then it starts getting harder, because your mana needs help against Moon/Chalice, then you have to be able to deal with Leo/Narset-type passives, then you have to be able to deal with Bowmaster passives. Legacy keeps getting harder and harder to get away with draw card effects in the mid- and late-game without the protection of kill spells...but every time you add those kill spells to preserve Uro's CA, you get further from adequately supporting a Dreadnought plan. You end up painting a bigger and bigger target on Dreadnought as other creatures fall away, while simultaneously only being able to win with the combat step.Of course 3c mana is weaker. But if Clark wants to play Dreadnought + Uro, a 3rd color is necessary. The discussion reduces to how to make that less bad among possible 3c UGx Dreadnought + Uro builds (need enough blue duals & blue fetches, Xerox, Lorien, and at least some basics). 3c may not be Tier 1, and it may perhaps be a lower Tier than 2c Dreadnought, but 3c has made enough MTGO results and Top 8s to show it is viable. Then it is worth discussing the most viable way to build 3c UGx. There are clearly players who want to play 3c, and it's capable of winning enough games.
If you ignore kill spells and stick with a 3-4cmc CA plan [Uro], then you don't really have a CA plan (discussed in above paragraph). Overload on enablers and you need something to enable. To consider Slip Out the Back a playable magic card, we would need to restore phasing rules vs tokens; at least then you could pick fights with it (exile Lage and dunking equipment for the rest of a game via indirect phasing rules being the primary uses). The issue isn't too few enablers, and if we're using phasing we should be trolling Doomsday with mill 4 and detonating Urza's Sagas with Vision Charm.So do you think Clark was on the right track then by ignoring kill spells? Redundant Slip Out the Back protects from removal.
^Notice how I'm never talking about cheating Dreadnought into play or doing things like protecting it with a trick, because it's the least important function. You have to create credible problems for opponents [Thrull fails here too], while naturally furthering the Nought plan.
The issue is that Stiflenought is trying to solve two equations at the same time (and while doing that they're not increasing their % of good matchups; we're still on the hope to get paired vs Delver or combo plan). It doesn't help if you cripple the Dreadnought plan when you unlock the CA plan with mass removal, or vice versa. What needs to happen here is focus on modal CA (e.g. Lorien, which also means having a real manabase) and speeding up CA down to 1-2cmc (which naturally lends itself to drawing deeper into a deck, which advances the mana for the modal CA). This is where Standstill and the mana system and cards it drags along, like Shark Typhoon are ideal. Standstill's mana system is also capable of using lands as spells, because that mana is secure and the mana progression is relentless (we open hands with 2 lands, and usually around 1 in 4 cards in the deck costing 1-2 mana find/draw towards the next land...and basic lands can't really be interacted with). If you're not willing to solve these problems with the Standstill system, you probably need to start looking at Beanstalk and Solitude (it creates a draw effect while offering to solve the "I can't draw" problem, which leaves more space for the Dreadnought kit than Uro). The problem there is that Beanstalk is the wrong color, slot heavy, and it really important to cast early (this creates problems when you don't have Vista or the 1x basic Forest in the opening hand; adding a single Trop for Lorien and Strand will generate losses by itself, but it would be mandatory). Even with Beanstalk, you need to fix the mana situation and stop using cantrip cartel if you want space to play Dreadnought. FoW/Lorien/Solitude/Timeless Dragon/overpaying of Ending/Teferi bounce Beans - this is where your slots are going for a Beanstalk build. You now need a non-cantrip cartel mana base that functions (that means the Standstill system of mana). You also are adding green without the ability to play the best green card in the format (SB FoV).
UW is still missing lifegain, CA, speed. UW does work, but UR is getting way more tools at a vastly superior rate, they're more aggressively costed, and much higher on synergy. You haven't played DRC until you've played it with Dreadnought, it's just the most perfect card ever made to put with Dreadnought. Like they deal with the Dreadnought and it basically turns into an enchant creature giving DRC flying and +2/+2, and the whole time DRC is working seamlessly on the mana progression/card selection angle. On top of that you add that UR's costs are much friendlier to running some Sagas and Mycosynth, and now we're getting a 12-dome magus with the Performer guy. Like why am I running UW right now? Don't get me wrong, I love nuking every land with Karn and dumping Dreadnoughts into play off Scroll with Teferi passive vs hands entirely composed of kill spells...but that's what UBw Landstill is for, and if I'm playing Nought I'm casting Pyroblast and PoP right now.Doesn't answer why the controlling UW direction (e.g. what I posted earlier) is not viable. Making tokens is to overload removal in the late game, not play aggro. I found that works well in Standstill. If they spend cards on 2/2 zombies, 2/2 manifest fetchlands, constructs, or Sharks then you're ahead. UW Dreadnought should be able to leverage the same.
When you have a Standstill in play, it doesn't really matter what the threat is. The difference is, this land taps for U [the primary color] and R. The animation cost is very low by manland equivalents, and it's in the two colors getting all the new printings right now. While the ETB tapped is suboptimal, you still gain points vs Choke/Carpet. Now a manland with 1 toughness is a red flag with Bowmasters, but there's fun to be had with a flash UU enchantment (we can ignore the X mode) that lets a manland tap to get hexproof from Bowmaster or Wasteland - tapping a manland at will isn't exactly difficult. A 2/1 hexproof + first strike is pretty scary for most removal-based legacy decks; the perfect mana (albeit ETB) is scary for the rest as it decreases mulligans.Unkillable.. except combat. 2/1 non-evasive is on par with Ghitu Encampment, which was never Legacy playable. Dies to 1/3s lol.
Creeping Tar Pit on the other hand...
Obviously you're not playing this card unless you are a damage-based Standstill deck like Dreadstill or something else like Infect. UU flash all manlands are TNN is pretty reasonable. Like sure it doesn't draw a card or have landcycling, but it does have a nice tap target Marit Lage or give target creature [Dreadnought] hexproof on the X mode. This is a card that checks most of the synergy boxes: increase blue count, ability to avoid discard from EoT Standstill cracks, invalidate removal/make opponents commit first, good enough to play in multiples. Is it good enough to drop Mycosynth and play alongside a few Saga and a heavier Standstill plan, maybe. It's definitely good enough to test. I think it's a harder thing for people that don't play Standstill to recognize, but getting colored mana from the Mishra's Factory slots is pretty huge, not just for the mana fixing - you also can play these at 2 slots rather than the mandatory 3x for Factory. Most have a hard time understanding we don't have to animate manlands unless we want to; we're happy to use the higher land count and mana. In UBw Landstill I'm always playing 2x CTP, that's one of the main benefits of the UB core, getting colors off a colorless slot. Returning to the discussion about UW, the best manland they have is still just Hall of Storm Giants, which means that their manland slots are going to Otawara, which means that you're offloading the manland function to Timeless Dragon.
When you're trying to win with Dreadnought, you need to be on top of identifying useful cards and adapting to incorporate new printings - especially when their mechanisms directly attack static netdeck patterns. So when you see trends like Beanstalk (aka Counterbalance/Hymn 2.0) going around with 4-5c manabases killing diversity like it does, Shadow and Doomsday and Tomb hemorrhaging life total...and then you're getting fed UR cards constantly that all do damage...at a time when you should cast Price of Progress...maybe the gut instinct shouldn't be "now is the time to go white with Thrull!"
You said it directly under quoting me (from a few pages back about the UW mana). If you follow the links in your own quotes, it leads back to that page, you quoting that 2c UW manabase, talking about Saga and sketchy mana. I asked why that 2c mana was sketchy. You now quote that several pages later (out of context) to talk about 3c decks. It's just strange you chose that quote then, instead of any of the 3c mana/discussion. That makes it hard to follow when so many different decklists and strategies are being discussed, but you're singling out isolated lines to reply to (and then talking about a different topic).
Of course the 3c mana is worse. Clark wants to play Bant or BUG though. To play 3c with Uro, you're tied into duals and Xerox, otherwise the mana would be even worse.
Would be nice to have the 2nd Dragon though. Isn't Tundra #2 better than Plains #3? Could also go up in lands to 22-23.
Or you can beat hostile Saga with Dress Down?
Struggling to reach card advantage mana or getting blown out by FoV are good points though. Problems Landstill doesn't have to worry about.
Yes, Ponder is bad at digging into 2-for-1s like Stifle + Dreadnought. 4x Uro does give a "1-card combo" to dig into (that even helps catch up on cards). Some other Stiflenought lists without Uro are on Murktide. Adding alternate fair threats does mitigate this risk a bit, doesn't it? It's something to dig for with Ponder.
Clark mentions he rarely uses Stifle to make Dreadnoughts. If 4x Dress Down is the main enabler and Stifle/Slip are backups, there's less self 2-for-1ing and maybe less need to compensate for that. Some Stiflenought 5-0s have cut down to 2 Stifle to reflect that plan. Ponder does work in other A+B combos that aren't 2-for-1d by Fatal Push. The more the deck pivots away from Stifle as an enabler, the less that structural 2-for-1 problem should matter.
I did not get his preference for <20 lands and cutting Lorien.
BoshNRoll has a few Dreadnought videos with these low-land manabases and he gets manascrewed often.
With multiple Uro and Lorien, why the fear of flooding? You can convert extra mana into cards. Otawara and Boseiju are other easy ways to cheat up on lands.
Prismatic Ending (Bant), Assassin's Trophy (BUG), and SB Force of Vigor and Force of Negation should help these problems. But Turn 1 Blood Moon is still a blowout.
The best line against Bowmasters passive is:
-You have no early board presence
-Opponent plays T2 EOT Bowmasters & attacks turn 3 into your open mana & empty board
-Flash Doorkeeper Thrull blocks 1/1 Bowmasters
That is a reasonable line. If opponent has removal, they will blow it on Thrull (1-for-1). If they allow the ambush, you can safely untap and play Dreadnought.
Using Thrull to ambush first (or "Stifle" something on the stack) forces opponent to use removal on Thrull, or you go up on cards and tempo. If you play Thrull at sorcery speed or as a 2-for-1 Dreadnought enabler, then you're getting wrecked by removal. That's where Thrull's Flash makes it much better than all previous iterations. You can use it to force action.
Only if you view Uro solely as a solution to a CA problem for Dreadnought. Then of course there are other CA tools that allow more stable mana.
Uro + Dreadnought seems to be a fundamental deck concept a lot of players want to play, because they want to Uro+Stifle. Then you're already forced into UGx, but you also have 1-card threats and less structural CA issue (can even board out some Dreadnoughts). Instead of trying to solve the Dreadnought equation, it could pivot towards other threats when the 2-for-1 plan is not good. But Stiflenought does present an actual clock against combo, something Uro can't do, so the Dreadnoughts still serve a purpose in the deck. This seems to work as a concept: there have been enough top8s and MTGO results by now. The deck does need more fair threats then. 4 Uro + 1 other creature is too few.
Standstill is one solution, but Standstill as a draw engine is also suboptimal in the current meta.
What about Beans? There are enough modal 5 cmcs: Force of Will, Lorien Revealed, Solitude (can also cheat out with Stifle), Timeless Dragon, maybe Murktide.
ETB tapped and small body are big deals though. It's why Ghitu Encampment never saw play. Otherwise this thing clocks as slowly as Mishra's Factory, except it ETB tapped and costs more to activate. So in practice it will be even slower (because you won't activate as often). As you know, Factory's speed was historically a problem because it gives opponent forever to sculpt a lucky hand to bust through Standstill and win the fight. Speed of the threat matters because it increases losses to luck. Landstill was glad to finally cut Factory for better mana & better clocks.
There are already other blue ETB-tapped manland duals that don't see play. Most are bigger. The UG one already has hexproof. The UB and UW ones have evasion. I played 1 Celestial Colonnade in Landstill when it was first printed, but cut it over a decade ago. Too slow and ETB tapped is a big problem. Standstill already wins the lategame; it needs untapped lands early to stabilize. Think about how bad Mystic Sanctuary is.
Creeping Tar Pit is the best, and miles better than this UR land.
For UR Dreadstill you can't play Tar Pit, but even Cloudform seems better than playing a non-cantripping blue UU enchantment to protect a UR 2/1 manland. If you depend on a blue enchantment, why not cast Cloudform for your hexproof threat? It gains evasion and has some small chance of flipping into 12/12.
Is that a bug or a feature? Timeless Dragon is a great threat, especially with Currency Converter. It also means your "manland" slot can choose to fix for untapped basic vs tapped nonbasic.
Good point. This meta is easily hated on by Price of Progress and begging for Blood Moon decks (so you also don't want to lose to Blood Moon).
Although another trend is ETB value: Initiative, Scam elementals, Bowmasters, Thassa combos, Yorion blink, Stoneforge Kaldra, The One Ring... these are all hated on by Thrull. Thrull attacks a lot of the meta, just under a different axis. Not losing to Blood Moon/Price of Progress is big, so UW looks better than Bant. Removal-heavy fair midrange is common, so it's also a good time to pivot off 2-for-1 Nought towards other enablers.
Last edited by FTW; 02-05-2024 at 11:19 AM.
Of the lists I've been putting together this one I think is the closest to ready, Combines Vesuvan Drifter and Coat
Vesuvan Drifter
Cryptic Coat
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Eater of Days
Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
Subtlety
Endurence
Force of Will
Worldly Tutor
Ponder
Brainstorm
Hide in Plain Sight
Stifle
Scroll of Fate
Dress Down
Essense Flux
1 Emrakul
Fetches
Island
Hedge Maze
I need to work out the specific card splits, but I think having a bunch of compact combos there where you can use worldly tutor or brainstorm to set up a cloaked/drifted Emrakul I think has potential, but would need a third color either for bowmasters to to counter bowmasters.
Maybe it could use Elvish Farsight in place of Brainstorm to try and just not draw enough cards?
I've tried the Worldly Tutor + Vesuvan Drifter thing and it's a lot better with Emrakul (especially in an Ancient Tomb Show & Tell deck) than with Dreadnought.
Worldly Tutor setting up Cryptic Coat / Cloudform looks like a more promising interaction with Dreadnought. Tutor can also get Uro (then fetch the UG surveil land to put Uro in graveyard) so you can escape Uro sooner. Or you can EOT Tutor + Dress Down, draw the Dreadnought/Uro, then untap and play it.
Eater of Days seems bad. You already have enough action at 3-4 mana and better threats. A low cmc card draw play - like Questing Druid or Sylvan Library (arrange top card) seems better.
but have you tried to cloak and flicker?
What is this supposed to accomplish exactly? Exiling a face-down does not trigger face-upping, nor does it return to play face-down.
SnT is easier than tap Scroll of Fate, put down Ugin 8cmc or Emmy or w/e and channel Touch the Sprirt realm....but this is manifest, not cloak.
The point would be turn turn faceup either a utility creature with an ETB you cared about, or Emrakul
SnT with/without Aeon Bridge stuff is less variance and less mana intensive. If you wanted to cheat in PWs, Planebound Accomplice has been out for a while, and you can dump in Karn wish Sundial and perm them.
If you wanted to do the face-down 3-piece stuff, Scroll is still the best as it disperses mana cost over 2 turns. Cloak thing like the 3G sorcery are too ambitious.
As always you miss the point, which is that these cards do things when they're not comboing, while also having combo applications.
I mean you're talking about a 4cmc sorcery, which requires mass copies to function properly. It's not really doing anything for extended periods because of its mana cost, where you'd be praying that your hand wasn't clogged with extra copies.
You have to stay alive to cast it (white or black removal and countermagic would be mandatory). Thus we enter the sequence of dead to Wasteland + can't assemble mana vs Chalice/Moon + Bowmaster passive issues.
To compete with ideas like these, the effect either needs to be hidden in the manabase (Mosswort Bridge) or more aggressively costed. Modal utility, such as landcycling, would also be acceptable on a combo piece.
While Aeon Bridge isn't a serious deck, they embrace the cheese and accept the inability to play a normal game. A 4 mana sorcery that makes a pair of 2/2's doesn't turn on access to conventional/normal magic win %, but it does compromise ability to cheese.
To do little-to-nothing on the path to 4 mana is best accomplished by Supreme Verdict.
Level with me: Do you actually read posts?
Yes I do. A 4 mana sorcery that makes 2x 2/2s is not good enough for legacy. It does nothing effective in this format if it isn't comboing. It's unplayable.
Let us contrast this to Verdict. Pitches to FoW/FoN/Solitude (modal). Resets game at 4 mana + always resolves.
Imho the bigger practical issue is you have too many "cool things" to do at 3-4 mana and not enough at 1-2 cmc.
If you try to turn that list of cards into a Legacy decklist, the mana curve will be a mess. The easiest cuts are at 4cmc: Eater of Days & Hide in Plain Sight. Save those slower fun interactions for Commander.
You don't, if you did, you won't have responded with this:
Even FTW is finally getting wise to your gimmick of never actually replying to the content presented. This chain is my fault for thinking, maybe just mayb,e you asked a question simple enough that it could be engaged with.A 4 mana sorcery that makes 2x 2/2s is not good enough for legacy. It does nothing effective in this format if it isn't comboing. It's unplayable.
Let us contrast this to Verdict. Pitches to FoW/FoN/Solitude (modal). Resets game at 4 mana + always resolves.
As always, just fuck off. You provide nothing of value. You have no understanding of the cards. Your opinions are exhausting. Your input is unwanted.
You put forth a list which tries to use the overarching theme of using Dreadnought's rate as a quad strength Dark Ritual, achieved through the SnT-like pathway. There are many problems with this pathway (lack of interaction, high variance, high mana requirements, high mana vulnerability). You've also chosen to propose this when Ice-Fang cannot be used to somewhat fix some of these problems due to the existence of Bowmaster.
It's not that you fail to demonstrate how you're going to stay in the game this long and how your mana is going to be popping off at the same time - you also fail to explain how a 4 mana sorcery is going to restart the game/invalidate the happenings of the first 3 turns. It makes a pair of 2/2s and you have to pass the turn and then if you had a combo piece in the top 6 and untap with it, maybe the combo can work. The backup plan is zero ways to distract removal from your Skill Borrower-type dude (who should just be a SnT).
Across all decks in the format a 4 mana spell must be capable invalidating the preceding turns. A pair of 2/2s does not do this.
Cease and desist. Hide is Plain Sight isn't playable - it's so bad we dont even have to playtest it to know how it performs. Stop floating this detritus in a competitive discourse.
Start again with Fact of Fiction. At least show you're trying. It would an upgrade to having crappy ideas, and responding to valid critique with content-bereft personal attacks with colorful language.
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