If Freakaccident read the latest article by Kevin Binswanger, I think he would realize that counterspells don't neccessarily beat Belcher. Quote on quote, Kevin pointed out that if they don't have an answer for the win condition then you outright win. He also pointed out that alot of the times you won't have an answer to Belcher by the first or second turn so you're able to win regardless. I think that Kevin made an excellent point and that's something that alot of people overlook when considering overall Magic strategies.
So if you don't have a swords than a first turn Akroma via reanimation spell, it will kill you... no WAY?!Originally Posted by Cavius The Great
I'm not saying that it cannot kill... I know without a doubt that it could throw 40 at my dome, that's just a duh statement.
But the fact is, if your playing combo & your opponent is playing a control deck... he/she will probably mulligan if they do not have an answer for the said combo.... I know if i'm playing against iggy and my hand looks like (needle, swords, swords, land, land, creature, creature) then I probably will not keep that hand, when in some MUs I might consider it.
Any combo deck can 'go off' without disruption, that's what they were designed to do.
@ johnny boy over there: the 15% was given to me through that fact that my opponent (jerry bonner, who is actually a great belcher player) got an average of a first turn win 1 out of every 5-6 games; and that is fact my friend... this could have been a bad night for the belcher player, but there is no way that you could possibly boast at much better consistancy in your list, seeing as it is very similar to jerry's.
I'm not going to argue with you any more, cuz I know that if we were to play in RL I would win outright JB, so I guess I'll see you at the next D4D, I'll be your opponent with the control deck.
Tell you what. The more I think about this deck the more I like it. If you are facing it with FoW, do you counter the acceleration? You have to if the Belcher player plans to win with ETW. But in the past, it was the Charbelcher itself that was the obvious target for the counter. So DO YOU? It looks like a gamble to me. That alone makes this deck far better than it used to be all by itself. It gets around Mage. It gets around Needle, like Zilla said. This is a smart move, and I would say that it makes the deck yet another viable option that used to not be thanks to Empty the Warrens. I see all the storm combo that does not end in "olidarity" looking more and more like the same thing these days.
Storm is so damned brokeneedd...and getting worse.
It also doesn't lose to Duress, with 4 Living Wish, the deck has 15 win conditions, or 2 per hand, so the opponent has to discard an accelerant a lot of the time.
I wouldn't generalise that control decks are favoured against Belcher if it includes an alternate kill. The deck is so full of acceleration that they have an excellent chance of putting down an overwhelming number of goblins turn 1. Countering acceleration helps them about as often as it hinders them.
Mulliganing into a Force isn't a problem. Mulliganing into mass removal that is fast enough (such as Pyroclasm or Engineered Explosives) is doable with some decks. Mulliganing until you get both - hardly.
It becomes better on the play if you have access to permanent-based hate... but Belcher is not quite as fragile as some people claim.
Exactly the kind of dilemma I had in mind. Sure, you can mulligan to FoW, but if your opponent goes with the ETW plan, you might be screwed. Also, while you are using resources to counter their ETW plan or to get rid of tokens, they might get enough acceleration/resources to get the Belcher plan working.
Game 1, Needle does not totally shut down the Belcher plan (Burning Wish for Spree). FoW, etc. doesn't shut down the ETW or the Belcher plan (if they know you play control, they won't walk into counterspells unprepared). I've seen players win through CotV@0,1 by either Wishing for Spree or just accumulating a lethal ETW with countered 1cc acceleration (ESG and SSG rock in that particular scenario).
@thefreakaccident: I don't want to start a flame war, but bragging and boasting doesn't help anyone understanding anything. Why don't you explain how you can wreck their plans with control (I'm assuming it's blue based) ? I find that its hard to sit and wait with Fow, etc. in hand because they put a lot of pressure early game and sometimes you run out of steam before they do. But hey, these are just my limited experiences against Belcher. Cards like Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere, heck even Glowrider seem to be the real wrecking balls for their plans (if you can get them on the board early enough and keep them there).
You were quoted as saying that Belcher can't win against decks that pack disruption and counters. Now you're flip flopping on the agenda and contradicting yourself. If you had any self dignity whatsoever, you would stop making sarcastic remarks and add a little intelligence to the conversation.So if you don't have a swords than a first turn Akroma via reanimation spell, it will kill you... no WAY?!
I'm not saying that it cannot kill... I know without a doubt that it could throw 40 at my dome, that's just a duh statement.
But the fact is, if your playing combo & your opponent is playing a control deck... he/she will probably mulligan if they do not have an answer for the said combo.... I know if i'm playing against iggy and my hand looks like (needle, swords, swords, land, land, creature, creature) then I probably will not keep that hand, when in some MUs I might consider it.
Any combo deck can 'go off' without disruption, that's what they were designed to do.
@ johnny boy over there: the 15% was given to me through that fact that my opponent (jerry bonner, who is actually a great belcher player) got an average of a first turn win 1 out of every 5-6 games; and that is fact my friend... this could have been a bad night for the belcher player, but there is no way that you could possibly boast at much better consistancy in your list, seeing as it is very similar to jerry's.
I'm not going to argue with you any more, cuz I know that if we were to play in RL I would win outright JB, so I guess I'll see you at the next D4D, I'll be your opponent with the control deck
what I was reported saying was that if the disruption is seen then it becomes an issue for the combo deck at hand ('speed belcher')... what you were saying is that you win if there is no disruption in the opening hand... any deck can win if there is nothing prohibiting in its way, hell I could just play lands and kill you if it always went that way.
You are correct that I said that belcher looses to disruption, but I never said that it was incapable of winning if that factor is non-existant (talking about if the disruption is not there). All that I am trying to get through is that you need to pack some actual protection if this is ever going to be seriously competative.
So just burn the deck entirely...
Make TES.......
And jack off to it just like all the other guys in the E.P.I.C. syndicate.
True Dat True Dat you are 100% jackass. This is the 20% that you didn't mention.
I did some testing. This is what I used.
Lands
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
Green
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Land Grant
Red
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Seething Song
2 Empty the Warrens
Black
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
Artifacts
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
Side Board//
2 Shattering Spree
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
...other stuff I didn't use
Goldfishing went as follows in 42 games, drop the highest and lowest (so out of 40).
avg: 2.975
%1: 10.0
%2: 22.5
%3: 42.5
%4: 12.5
%5: 10.0
%6: 02.5
These numbers are not the turn you go off, they are kill turns assuming attacking with little 1/1's off of Warrens where applicable and includes opponent blocks and spot removal estimations.
Whatever. The real testing came against Gobs and Thresh.
Gobs - 5-0 matches including sbing. I won all 10 games. He had Needles, but he did not have Chalice.
UGR Thresh - 2-8 - matches including sb. He had Stifle which hurt a lot.
My initial estimates were not really accurate. FoW is still very hard to overcome at times. BUT, the Pithing Needle brought in by Gobs was no big deal and this deck does not kill itself.
Xantids should have been main. The deck can USUALLY go off on turn 1. That's way more than 50%. FoW makes that kinda moot, though.
Questions:
1. Beyond Xantids and Duress what else can we include to improve this?
2. This appears to be flat-out better than the old Belcher builds. Is there anything I am forgetting?
Xantid Swarm is hands done the best disruption, unless the deck can manage to include enough black cards to support Unmask and still be able to go off on the same turn.
I was speaking of the latter.
Do Not Ignore Me You Fat Whore!!!!! It's Kashmire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are an Fing retard, go back to mortal kombat and suck raiden's lightning fast wang.
dude, are you, like, three? seriously, just because he doesnt respond to a childish insult doesnt mean you have to start flaming all over the place. Act your age. Please?
"Oho! I have deluded you! For I am a clever trickster, and this is not actually the truth!"
-Doug Beyer
Man this thread has gone down the drain; too bad... guess i'll find another way to waste my time.
EDIT: I can really see no point for this thread to still exist, considering that the other Belcher thread involves discussion, actual argumentation and new ideas.
Last edited by aTn; 04-15-2007 at 01:26 PM.
Yea, it has, its thanks to the big cheese for the downhill spiral. If you have a good point by all means share it, perhaps the thread can get back up to competent speech.
Hey guys, sorry about bringing down the thread like that it was uneeded and I apologize.
Finn, I am curious to the decision of not running Cabal Ritual. WHat do you think?
This is my Signature
Devastater, I am taking this conversation to the Cheeseless thread in "open"....
Cheese is banned. - Zilla
Last edited by Zilla; 04-16-2007 at 07:25 PM.
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